How to Use Collagen to Improve Your Health | Podcast #190

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Welcome to today's live podcast with Evan Brand! In this podcast, the functional duo educates people about what Collagen is, why is it important and where it originates. Watch as they also explain how one loses Collagen and what affects it. Also, listen as they enumerate the different types of Collagen and other related things like gut health, deficiencies, etc.  

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

01:28   Decreasing Collagen Exposure

04:36  Tryptophan Absence, Skin Health, and Collagen Matrix

15:50  Gut Health Affecting Joint Health

16:30  Cortisol: The “Anti-Bone Broth”

19:00  The Evolution of the Human Brain




Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Evan, it’s Dr. J here in the house. How are we doing, man? How’s your Monday?

Evan Brand: happy Monday to you, man. I’m back on the grind. I took last week off. I told you it was crazy like working so hard and then just coming to a— uh— a standstill. It was difficult for me. Now, once I got to the end of the week, I started to relax. But, man, I tell you, vacation’s are not my favorite thing. Maybe I just have a wrong uh— mentality towards them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean, when you have jobs like we do, where you really, really enjoy. It’s uh— It’s fun to be living on purpose and helping people.

Evan Brand: Yup. Agreed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: Well, you came up with a great topic idea, which is all about Collagen. And— I mean, I can’t tell you how many women, when I’m asking them about their supplements— Like, random women, that may or may not know anything about health or functional medicine—  somehow they discovered Collagen, and they’re taking it as a supplement. But, before we get in to supplemental uses of it. You and I were doing a bit of research and wanted to fill in kind of some back story on Collagen, educate people about what it is, and where it comes from, and how do you lose Collagen, what affects Collagen, things even in your gut, vitamin deficiencies— I mean, this has some cool stuff so let’s dig in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, absolutely. So, Collagen’s important. One of my favorite a— amino acid that I love to supplement at least once, even twice a day. I typically do it, in the morning, in my coffee and I do it at night in— with some Magnesium citrate powder. I love it. We typically get exposure to Collagen, Collagen amino acids, in the environment through connective tissue support, so like bone broths, where we can get the full bone and the Collagen and— and the ligament, its tendon, and the high to the skin of the animal. So, most of the time, we’re just not getting that exposure these days ‘cause we’re just eating muscle meat, and most of the time, it’s even skinless. And we’re not doing it any broth form. We’re not doing any soup. So, we’re not getting a lot of the marrow, the ligaments, the tendon, the cartilage, amino acids. So, we’re getting those amino acid exposure that we typically would get the— in— from muscle meat. So, it’s really important that we get these amino acids. And if we’re not doing the soups and broths, then we have to make sure we get some type of Collagen supplement. That’s why I formulated a product called TruCollagen, where I source it from Argentinian kind of grass-fed cows. And we use Proteolytic enzymes— We dump the Proteolytic enzymes on the tissue on the hide, on the ligament, tendon, to break it down into a powder form. That way, it breaks down in water or coffee or tea or soup. So, huge fan of that because we’re just not getting enough of those type of proteins in our diet.

Evan Brand: That’s amazing! So, I’m just reading a little bit about hydrolyzed Collagen, which is what you have in your product. And— uh— Hydrolyzed Collagen contains 19 amino acids. And so, these are things like Glycine, Proline, Glutamic acid, Arginine, Alanine, and other essential amino acids and some non-essential amino acids. Maybe, before we get in to like deficiencies and Cortisol and stuff like that, maybe let’s just chat about amino acids and how important they for manufacturing neurotransmitters. I mean, you’ve got so many people with uh— mood issues, depression being number one leading cause of disability, I believe Anxiety. Actually, I just saw a report about that. I don’t know if you saw it. Anxiety is actually topping depression now as the leading cause of disability in the world by the Center of Disease Control. So, Anxiety, Depression— Those are highly linked to amino acid deficiencies, which not gonna say Collagen’s gonna cure you, but it can replenish these amino acids that you need to manufacture brain chemicals.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and if you looked at the top ten essential amino acids, these are amino acids that your body cannot make. Arginine, Histidine, Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, which is a precursor to Tyrosine. Uh— Threonine, Tryptophan, which is a precursor to 5-HTP, which is Serotonin, and then, Valanine or Valine. So, these are all important amino acids. We cannot get them from our food like— I’m sorry. We cannot get them from our body. Our body cannot make them. We have to get them from our food. Now, when we go cross-reference that with some of the Collagen from uh— or some of the amino acids that are actually in Collagen. It’s a little bit different. Glycine, Proline, Alanine, and Hydroxyproline are the big ones. Glycine’s really important because that’s actually an amino acid that we use to make Glutathione. So, the more toxic load we’re gonna have, the more our bodies can actually take Glycine and burn it up, and to make Glutathione. So, that’s really important. Uh— Proline and Alanine and Hydroxyproline, really, really important for that dermal layer, right— the dermal layer. So, we have the epidermis. That’s the outer part of the skin that you see. The second layer is the dermis. And, we have all this Collagen fibers that kind of— you’d make uh— a network throughout that dermis layer. And think about the tighter. Though, that Collagen matrix is the better in the— the better skin integrity you’re gonna have. It’s gonna be smoother. It’s gonna be clearer. And then, the more you start to have sags in that Collagen matrix. That’s kind of wrinkles and just skin that’s not gonna be in that— that youthful integrity. So, we want to make sure we have that nice strong Collagen matrix. Now, we can whip that Collagen into shape using laser or microneedling therapies, right? Of course, things that like— things like Oxidative stressors like smoking, and toxicity, and excess sun, right— can also break it down. But we also can provide building blocks. Vitamin C is really important cause that’s the really important building block to making that Collagen. But also the amino acids that I mention, which you found in the connective tissue. And, we like to use a lot of Type I and Type III Collagen sources and I’ll go into that in a bit.

Evan Brand: Yeah. The interesting about Collagen, the only amino acid that’s essential that it does not contain is Tryptophan. And we use Tryptophan a lot supplementally and specially 5-Hydroxytryptophan, 5-HTP. Really, really helpful for people with mood issues, so anxiety and depression and all that, it makes sense. Why? I’ve had clients that say, “ Oh! I’ve been supplementing Collagen but I still have these mood issues.” So, you can still replenish other neurotransmitters but you’re not getting Tryptophan from Collagen, and— and interestingly a lot. So, if you do have mood issues, you may need Collagen plus 5-HTP. And you brought up the Vitamin C so I’ll take that a little bit further. In terms of testing, between Justin and I, both, we’ve probably looked at— I don’t know, maybe 3,000 or 4,000, who knows how many Organic acids test. This is a urine sample that we run on every new client. And you can actually measure Vitamin C on this urine sample. And I would say— and Justin tell me if your statistics are different— but I would say 80%, if not more, people have a deficiency or even no Vitamin C, works completely bottomed out. And as you just mentioned, you have to have Vitamin C as a cofactor to build Collagen. So if your skin looks like crap and your Vitamin C’s burned out, you’ve got some explanation on the— on the data.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. Now, Oxidation is important. Oxidation is when you lose electrons. So, if you put a rusty nail outside and it gets rusty, that’s Oxidation. The— The steel or the metal that makes up that nail losses electrons hence the rusting, or if you cut an apple in your house and you let the apple brown, that is Oxidation. Now, you can get some lemon juice, put it on it. The lemon juice is very high in Vitamin C, which then prevents the apple from browning. Why? Because it’s an antioxidant. It’s giving up electrons to stabilize the loss of electrons from the oxidation process. So that’s what we like. Vitamin C’s are really good adrenal support because a lot of adrenal stress creates Oxidation. Obviously, your adrenals use Vitamin C as a— is a kind of a cofactor for adrenal support to make some of the adrenal hormones from a nutritional perspective, kind of like the thyroid uses uhm— Selenium so to speak, the adrenals like Vitamin C and then Oxidation. We can have Oxidation stress just from emotional stress. We can have it poor sleep. We can have it from nutrient deficiencies. We can have it from pesticides in the environment. Of course, smoking is one of the most notorious ones, right? Smoking creates Oxidation. The Oxidation decreases Vitamin C stores. Lack of Vitamin C is gonna be an ability to make and uh— and to create your own Collagen matrix in your bodies, and then you have— started to have these weakened nets underneath your skin, which then allows certain parts to sag and just wrinkle, and just that— that accelerated aging, looks starts to occur. So of course, we want uh— number one, decrease the Oxidative stressors that are affecting our skin— sticides, smoking, excess of Sun, uhm— sleep, nutritional issues. We want a supplement, the good nutrition on the Vitamin C side, and then also the building blocks, because the more stressed we are, the more we’re gonna break down amino acids. So get the really good extra Collagen amino acids. And this is more important specially if you’re not eating the skin on the animals that you’re eating, and you’re not making soups or doing broth, then it’s even more important ‘cause you just not gonna expose those amino acids.

Evan Brand: Yep. Well said. So there’s the answer. If you’ve been wondering all these years why when you look at a smoker, their skin looks so terrible and they look 20 years older than everybody around them who’s not smoking, there is your answer. And let’s talk about the gut a bit ‘cause we were doing some research and there’s an enzyme called Collagenase, and Collagenase is an enzyme that inhibits Collagen synthesis. And guess what? Turns out, there are gut bacteria, including H. pylori. I just found a literature piece here. I’ll put it in the— in the chat for you, Justin. It’s about H. pylori being in type of infection that can cause the secretion of this Collagenase and when this enzyme gets produced all the sudden, now you want it making Collagen. So, we’re gonna say, “Hey! That your wrinkles are caused directly from H. pylori?” No. There’s probably multiple factors but the truth is, gut bugs— so, bacteria, viruses, H. pylori being a big one. I didn’t see anything about parasites but I’m just gonna assume  Even if it wasn’t affecting that Collagenase, we already know based on what happen to me with my weight loss and based on what we’ve seen with 1000+ clients is that parasites can steal your nutrients and cause your amino acids to go low. And you can also measure amino acids on Organic acids testing too, which is why we love it because if we see that someone has digestive problems like gut bugs, a lot of the time, those amino acids will show low. And then we know something’s off with their brain, their skin, their mood, their sleep, sex drive— it can all be affected.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent. One hundred percent. Now, regarding, you know, what the next steps are, right? You also talked about the gut. Now, I mentioned Glycine, which is one of the main amino acids in Collagen. It’s gonna be used for Glutathione, which is a powerful detoxifying antioxidant because, any toxin puts oxidative stress on your body. Number two, Glycine’s really for the— for the Enterocytes to be nice and strong within the gut lining. So, Glycine is really, really important. That’s partly why the GAPS Diet has a strong emphasis on bone broth and soups because you can get a lot of the nutrients pull from the skin, tendon, ligament, bone into the soup, into the broth, and then you can drink that. That has a really good healing anti-inflammatory effect on the gut lining. So, Glycine’s also important just because like you have this Collagen matrix that builds up the— the dermis, which is the layer just beneath your skin. We also have these Collagen peptides that are really important for building the Enterocytes within the gut lining as well. So, it’s not just your skin, not just your tendons and bones for joint health, it’s also your healthy gut.

Evan Brand: That’s amazing. So, you’re literally healing from the inside-out?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct.

Evan Brand: It doesn’t get [inaudible]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A hundred percent.

Evan Brand: Of course, we’re not doing just that. Like a leaky gut protocol, we’ve got several different custom formulations that we’re using, but it sounds like, based on what you’re saying here, we would definitely want to have Collagen in as a post-infection protocol for best results.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct. And there’s about— I mean, if you go look, there’s a lot of different like Collagen types. The most common ones are the I and III. Those are the ones that I use in my TruCollagen. The difference with my TruCollagen compared to most molt— most used Sulfuric acid is a uhm— is a— an emulsifier to break down the amino acids in the peptide form. I use Proteolytic enzymes. So, that process cost a little bit more for the Proteolytic enzymes. And then we sourced it from Argentinian grass-fed cows, which do not get a certified organic label on it— that just caused too much— but we just used farmers that basically are— are— uh— basically adhering to those standards but aren’t paying the extra money for the certification.

Evan Brand: That’s right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then again, we’re using the Type I and Type III. type I is skin, tendon, vasculature, organ, bone, and it makes up the major organic part of the bone. And then we have Type III, which is basically uhm— It’s found alongside Type I. These are the reticular fibers, okay. Reticular fibers that the— the big network that interweave— interweaves between everything to strengthen it up. It gives a good scaffolding. So, Type I and Type III— You’ll see some of the— the Neocell Collagen will have ome of the Type II, right?

Evan Brand: Yeah. [crosstalk] I’ve had an impulse in that one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: It tastes pretty good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: yeah. I mean, the thing with Neocell, uh— a lot of it becomes from Tyson Poultry Farm chickens.

Evan Brand: [crosstalk] That sucks. So, I figured it wasn’t quality because— Put it this way, if it were quality like pastured animals, they would advertise it. “Hey it’s from pastured animals.” Right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct. So, it— it comes from the— the Neocell tends to come more from the Tyson Farm chickens, and number two, doesn’t blend as well. I mean, if you put it in your coffee or tea, is a noticeable flavor f— for me that disrupts the enjoyment of my coffee or tea. Uh— Where, if you use a really good proteolytic Collagen, it almost— it has no flavor at all and almost acts like a creamer. So, I love it ‘cause, one, that’s my creamer. And then, number two, it provides the extra amino acids. So, if I have someone who’s just not hungry at all, that doesn’t want to really eat much in the morning but they love their coffee or tea, well, we can at least put a scoop of Collagen in there. Get 12 to 15 grams of Collagen, and they at least get some good amino acids nutrients in their— in their gut. And also, it prov— provides support for the gut lining too, which is great.

Evan Brand: Yeah, well said.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And most people aren’t— they aren’t getting exposed. Even people that are Paleo, unless they’re doing bone broth, right— or doing bone marrow…

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …they’re just not getting exposed to it.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well, when you were talking about that, I thought, “Man, this would be a perfect intervention if we were trying to get someone from a Vegan or a vegetarian template and try to get them over to a whole foods— you know, animal-based products uh— diet. I think Collagen would be a good first step. Like, “Hey, look. I understand you don’t want to eat eggs. I understand you don’t want to eat meat. Okay. Let’s start you out with a simple white powder. You’re never gonna know what it was. It’s Collagen— tons of amino acids. By the time they feel better from it, then maybe they’d be convinced to stop being a Vegan or a Vegetarian. Mood, skin, things like that, are better ‘cause we’ve had a lot of vegetarian Vegans with skin issues uh— probably due to the malabsorption ‘cause they’re doing so many beans and grains and stuff that their gut’s messed up. Uh— But yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I have a lot of Vegans and vegetarians that— that I at least coerced them to being able to do some of the Collagen peptides.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Actually, I coerced them at doing at least a little bit of egg yolk if tolerated, and potentially, even a little bit of fish. So I may be able to kind of push them in that direction. But yeah, I mean, a lot of the Vegetarian protein sources, they aren’t rich in Sulfur amino acids and they tend to have a whole bunch of anti-nutrients bound up to them. So if there’s any digestion issues, that can be, you know, make it really hard to extract a lot of those nutrients. Not to mention, I think this is really, really important that lots and lots of people, they don’t have— Let’s just say it like this. Uhm— They don’t have the ability to break them down as much but they also tend to have a lot more carbohydrate in their food. So, the more Carbohydrate you have in your food, the greater chance of Insulin resistance. The increased Insulin resistance, the higher your blood sugar gets. That creates advanced glycation end-products because the sugar is coating all those proteins up ‘cause your body can’t pull it into the bloodstream as well, so it increases blood levels of glucose, which the creates more oxidative stress. Advanced Glycation end-products ages— ages you partly because of that oxidative stress mechanism.

Evan Brand: Yup. I’m trying to think of those anything else i wanted to mention. Oh, yes! Cortisol. Let’s talk about Cortisol. You mentioned adrenal stress and how that can deplete Vitamin C…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Evan Brand: …which is…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: …a cofactor for Collagen synthesis, but Cortisol in itself is gonna be catabolic. So, Cortisol can cause leaky gut issues…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: …because it can break down that gut barrier. But then let’s talk about that a bit more. You know, Cortisol can be affecting your skin, your gut lining. I mean, it’s pretty much the anti bone broth if I could call it that.  

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: One hundred percent. I think we made some valid points. And again, if you’re seeing hair loss, part of, I think, the mechanism for hair loss with a lot of these infections is number one you’re uh— you’re malabsorbing a lot of these nutrients. Number two, I would also say, there could be potential thyroid issues, right? Because if you have infections, there could be thyroid issues. And you need thyroid hormone to help follicle growth as well. So, low thyroid hormone could easily be part of what that follicle is— is atrophying and the hair’s falling off.

Evan Brand: Well, what if Anemia is too? I mean that would be a whole nother podcast but Ferritin is a common thing we’ll see that’s low.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: B vitamins, B12 for sure.

Evan Brand: Yeah. So there are Anemias and there are gut infections too. I mean, you know, with the— you mentioned, the thyroid Hashimoto’s— I mean, that could be a gut— a gut issue. That’s like H. pylori that’s triggering autoimmunity of some sort, and then, the Collagen gets affected, then the skin’s affected. I mean, everything— everything’s connected that’s why it’s funny because we start out on one topic, and then we always go back to the other topics we discussed because you cannot separate these things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And I love Collagen because it provides the— the mechanism for skin, the cosmetic aesthetic asset. It also provides support on the gut aspect, and then it also provides support on the detox aspects. So, many, many sides of it. Think of Collagen as the scaffolding and all of the various osteobl— osteoblasts and fibroblasts that are growing around it. That’s the scaffolding that keeps it in place, right? Just like, you need scaffolding around the building so the builders can maneuver their way up the building to put all the rods and steel and glass and cement in place. Think of the Collagen as that scaffolding that provides that strong foundation for your— for the— for your other building block cells to do what they need to do.

Evan Brand: Makes you wonder, I mean, how often and how much Collagen our ancestors were getting. I mean, many people joke at us as humans eating muscle meat, and say that our ancestors— that was like the last thing that they went for. Have you heard talks about that? Like, the muscle meat was basically the— the least important part of the animal when they killed it?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There’s a Nova Documentary out there, and they talked about kind of the evolution of the human brain. And, basically, they have this kind of divergence of Homo ergaster and Cro-Magnon kind of went extinct. Did— Didn’t quite get that higher brain, but Homo ergaster developed to have stronger brain. Now, how it first developed that stronger brain? first, it  was able to create the what’s called the hand axe. Basically a hand— it— it’s something that you can just grab with your hand. It’s just a rock with uh— that came to a wedge. So, what they were able to do with the hand axe. They were able to take the long bones and break the long bones open, and start scraping out the marrow within the bone. More than likely, within that marrow, there’s gonna be a lot of Collagen aminos ‘cause they’re scraping that inside of the bone out. Those amino acids ‘cause the brain to grow at a faster rate than these other humans that were around. And that higher brain power allowed them to then create weapons, where they could then kill animals from further away up in a tree with a spear or a bone arrow. Therefore, they were less likely to be injured or hurt or killed. So it was the higher brain function from certain nutrients, better weaponry, also being able to access the Omega-3 fatty acids from the fish. These nutrients skyrocketed the human brain, where in a— in a— you know, a relatively short period of a couple hundred thousand years, the brain grew very fast.

Evan Brand: I think they said it doubled in that timeframe.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep. And that’s kind of, you know, why we are where we’re at today. And that’s part of the reason why human species— like a lot of humans or not— a lot of other species, right— animal species. They developed super fast, right? They’re walking. They’re moving right away, right out of the gates. Humans don’t because all that energy is actually going in to growing the brain. So, if you look at why babies, human babies, developed so slow in— in— in correlation with the horse, that comes out of huh— the uterus, are walking.

Evan Brand: [laughs] Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Because all the energy is going to brain growth, and that’s kind of where we’re at…

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …for the last couple of hundred thousand years.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Bison too. I think Bison literally like run with their moms on the first day of being born.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. It’s because they don’t have uh— a frontal cortex that has taken hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years, in nutrients to get to where they’re at.

Evan Brand: Yeah, and people like, “Okay. what do I do now? Start eating bone marrow?” You could, but you could also just start doing these high quality Collagens and bone broths. And—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Cool.

Evan Brand: And you’re gonna get the marrow from the— from the bones. I know Kettle & Fire, which is the company that— they sponsored my podcast for a while. I know they used all the bones and the marrow. People can actually get 20% off. I believe my link…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: I’ll do— I’ll double check it. I’ll just do a little plug here. I’ll make like two (2) dollars if you buy this broth using my discount, but you’ll save more than two dollars. Yeah. So, it’s, and if you use that link, you will get 20% off of bone broth. So, that’s pretty good. I drink it almost weekly. I don’t actually drink it by itself though, to be honest. I just mix it in with soups and recipes and stuff. If I’m doing like a stew…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand:crock pot, I’ll just add a half a carton of it to it. And I’ve used the other brands like Pacific that’s store-bought, big major corporation bone broth, it does not get like jello. When you put the Kettle & Fire in the fridge, it’s like, you have to scoop it out with the spoon. Like—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: I know that it’s much higher quality.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You get a lot more lunging Collagen peptides. Totally. That makes a lot of sense. [crosstalk] It’s great.

Evan Brand: Ann Louise Gittleman when I interviewed her for the Candida summit, she said that she had her team. I guess she has a team, kind of like Mercola, that goes and investigate stuff for her.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Evan Brand: And they tested a bunch of different uh— commercial, like organic bone broth companies. And she said also that Kettle & Fire was the only one that passed in terms of not being contaminated with heavy metals because, apparently, depending on where these animals are grazing, if the soil has heavy metals, and then obviously that’s uptake into the bone, like Lead. And then you make broth out of it, then you drink the broth, you could be giving yourself Lead. But she said that’s the only one that actually drinks. So, that was cool to hear.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Excellent. Anything else you wanted to answer or address here before wwe wrap up?

Evan Brand: I think we covered it all. I don’t have the questions pulled up so I didn’t know if there were any there that you want to hit or not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think we’re good. I’ll just one li— little shout out for your summit coming up. Head over to, C-A-N-D-I-D-A, for Evan’s awesome Candida Summit coming up in the next month. Make sure you subscribe. I’m really excited to be a guest on that. I’m really excited for the awesome information that’s coming everyone’s way.  

Evan Brand: [crosstalk] Make sure you put the link too. Make sure you put that link in this video for people. They’ll look it out. So, Go register there for the event. I mean, we’ve literally already got 30,000 people registered and it’s not even until next month. So…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it.

Evan Brand: …if you— Imagine missing out on 30 of our podcasts together, that’s what it’s like if you miss out on this event.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome, man. Anything else you want to add today?

Evan Brand: Not today. Take care. Reach out for Justin if you want to consult. for me. We love to help you out. Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome, Evan. Have a go, man.

Evan Brand: Sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You take care.

Evan Brand: Bye.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.



Ann Louise Gittleman in a Candida Summit interview

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