Ketosis is a normal metabolic process that provides several health benefits. It’s a popular weight loss strategy wherein your body converts fat into compounds known as ketones and begins using them as its main source of energy. Ketogenic diets may even have benefits against diabetes, cancer, epilepsy and Alzheimer's disease.
Read and listen through this podcast as Dr. J and his special guest, Dr. David Jockers discuss the Top 3 Ketosis Tips for Success.
Dr. David Jockers
In this episode, we cover:
00:43 Ketogenic Diet, Intermittent Fasting
01:10 Importance of Hydration
09:08 Stress Control and Good Sleep
13:54 Keto Adaptations
28:34 Meal Time Strategies
Dr. David Jockers: Hey always great to be on Dr. J, I love listening to you and Evan. Big fan of the show, so always great when I get to be on. And I love our conversation. So thanks a lot.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah well thanks for being here, Doc I really appreciate it. So let's dive in to it, you've been utilizing ketogenic diet, intermittent fasting, these tips these techniques to help improve insulin sensitivity, to help with cellular turnover and healthy aging. So what's the number one thing right now that you find that patients have a barrier with it, when you make this tweak or you make this adjustment, they get to their next level of health utilizing a ketogenic diet?
Dr. David Jockers: Now I would say the number one thing is hydration. You see, in our brain our, our hypothalamus, our hunger center and our thirst center are right next to each other. And whenever we eat, we stimulate dopamine. It helps us feel good. And I think that's a great adaptation, because you know it's like, it's great to feel good when we eat and it helps drive us to eat to consume food. But what happens is because food so prevalent in our society today, whereas as our ancestors didn't have access to, you know we didn't have pantries and refrigerators and things like that in years past. So food is prevalent. We could literally be eating all day long and we're constantly stimulating that dopamine. And so for many people have become addicted to it, and our hunger and our thirst center are right next to each other in that area of the brain. And so for many people they've had these neuroplastic changes where the hunger center has now moved into the thirst center. So they're really thirsty but they experience it as hunger. So they're like I need something, I need a dopamine hit. There's something that I'm missing and there's food, I'm going to go for the food, and really most people are chronically dehydrated meaning more fluid. We need more water. And so I find that drinking more water, hydrating your body really well especially when you first wake up in the morning, so critical, so critical, for intermittent fasting, so critical for fat burning, for cleansing the body, for energy production, for good mental clarity, and for Keto adaptation. And so getting some good water, I recommend drinking you know, if you're not used to it start with just eight ounces, OK. But ideally, trying to get 16 to up to 32 ounces of water within the first hour of waking up. So really hydrating your body well because when you're sleeping overnight you're breathing out water vapor. So you're actually losing water throughout the night. So when you wake up in the morning really hydrating well, not only will replace that water, but on top of that it's also going to help stimulate energy production, you're going to notice that your energy goes up, the better you're hydrated, more energy production your body's going to have, you're also going to poop better, right. We want to get poop out, want to have good bowel movements early in the morning, you're at your large intestine is most active. So my goal is always to have two really good solid bowel movements within the first hour of waking, and it's like my energy is just amazing, my mental clarity- I'm so productive when I'm able to do that. So hydration is number one tip.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think that's amazing. I've been following that for years. When I first discovered the book, your body's many cries for water by Dr. Batten and Gila. She talked about that. I'll add some extra like Redman's real salt or I'll use a trace minerals support I'll add to it. Today, I had a little bit of alcohol last night so I before I went to bed I have a drink, I typically drink mineral water in between each alcoholic beverage to get the extra minerals back in and then I did a lot of glutathione before bed and a lot of vitamin C and extra electrolytes to start my day, and those stretch receptors in your tummy when water comes in, it hits those stretch receptors and allows you to feel more satiated and then naturally have an appetite that's more calibrated with what their nutritional needs actually are. So that's a great tip.
Dr. David Jockers: Yes so important, I mean we have that ghrelin hormone. And so when we're when our stomach is empty, ghrelin going to come out and tell us we're hungry. So yes the eating a big breakfast in the morning, it's normal for you to want to eat a big breakfast because you conditioned this response that ghrelin pop out. What if you just start by hydrating your body you're gonna notice you're gonna be more satiated. This is a great way to get started with intermittent fasting- you just hydrate your body really well in the morning, and then wait for natural hunger to come after that, to start with the hydration, now allow the natural hunger to come, you know, as it comes naturally after that. Yeah definitely getting the electrolytes and to adding some —
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes it's very important. And as insulin levels drop too we tend to pee, pee more because insulin tends to pull sodium. Sodium tends to pull water. So that's why you know someone does a ketogenic diet and drops their carbs really low they'll lose three or four pounds the first day it's not going to be fat it's going to be water. So yeah I mean that's that's a really salient point because we are going to be losing a lot of that water so we have to make sure we get it back. And I would even say the key electrolyte to on keto that I find is really low is potassium. So really upping the potassium and or just really focusing on lots of green vegetables and avocados is another awesome tip for sure.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. That is important and sodium too actually. When you lose a lot of sodium, so getting a lot of those salts are really the cool thing is in nature you get potassium, and a lot, you get potassium and sodium and good ratios right. So avocados actually have sodium, celery potassium and sodium, C vegetable. Right. So all these natural foods [inaudible], these broccoli cauliflower got potassium and sodium. So if you're consuming a lot of those things and then salting your food up to your desired case. I don't think you need to go beyond that. Not like I'm shoveling salt in your mouth. They just flush you out right. Probably just move your bowels, could you loose stools but instead just salting up to your taste. And even if you've been told to be on a low salt diet, it's kind of like what you were saying there, Dr. J you know, basically once you, once your insulin goes down, you turn a lower carb diet or if you are doing some fasting, your insulin is going to drop down and when you when you drop insulin, you start to excrete sodium. With that sodium comes the water so you need to replace that. So adding in these good trace mineral rich foods, even grass fed meets you're very rich and in minerals, a lot of good salts and they're really really good stuff. Dark green leafy sea vegetable, a lot of things we we just talked about, fermented foods, olives, pickles, sauerkraut, all really really good stuff when it comes to trace minerals. So getting those in your diet and then just salting up your desired taste, really good. And then I mean it's really as simple as this when it when we're talking about taking Redmond's real salt or Himalayan salt. Yes a little pinch on your on your finger and put it on your tongue. Specially noticing that you're just feeling a little bit dizzy or especially a lot of people when they start intermittent fasting or if they start going in a low carb diet, they feel a little bit dizzy, a little bit spacey and oftentimes that's an electrolyte issue. So just taking a pinch of salt putting it on your tongue, drinking you know, two to four ounces of water and shrinking a little water after that can knock that out right away. I've also seen people with allergy symptoms, certain having like a runny nose and coughing things like that, taking a little bit of salt and water actually acts as a natural antihistamine. Dissolution, yeah because histamine actually, one of its jobs in Doctor, Doctor Batman is who I helped in that book he talks about it talks about histamine helps triaged water so we become dehydrated. We triaged water into organ systems that are most vital, like the brain, heart rate. And so therefore the mucous membranes get less of it. So we're more likely to have allergic type responses right and plus we have elevated histamine in our system. So when we hydrate the body, get the electrolytes in, naturally reduces that histamine response and we get more balanced, more balanced histamine response, therefore, less of the congestion right runny nose things like that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, totally makes sense. Love it, love it. and then what's your favorite brand for a good mineral salt? Redmond's Real Salt?
Dr. David Jockers: Redmond's Salt is great. Absolutely. That's what I think. I think it's a little bit lower costs than Himalayan, Himalayan sea salt a great one, Celtic is a good one. So any of those are great.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then just people listening. It's not just sodium chloride, your typical table salt would be sodium chloride. It'll be bleached as well. So we're talking about salt that have you know 60 70 different micro minerals as well as just sodium chloride. So you're getting a lot more in there. I think that's phenomenal. What's number two. Dr. Jockers?
Dr. David Jockers: Yes. So we talked about the water in the electrolytes obviously we've got to start with that. Number two is really controlling your stress and focusing on good sleep. So most people understand this but you know we're under stress, we're gonna be elevating our blood sugars, so higher amounts of stress hormone are telling our body we're in a place of fight or flight and when we're in place or fight or flight we think we might need to sprint at any moment with survival. Right so our bodies naturally can elevate our blood sugar, and when we do that, then you know if we're not running, so we're just stressed out like we're sitting in traffic, whatever it is, your spouse says something, and we're stressed out about it ,we're elevating our blood sugar but we're not giving the response the body needs which would be to run or lift something, I had to climb a tree so therefore we just end up with this elevated blood sugars in the body towns out some insulin to help lower that blood sugar, high blood sugar can be toxic, can actually cause damage to the nerve system, cause advanced location and products, all kinds of all kinds of oxidative stress, so the body gets insulin up to take the sugar out of the bloodstream and of course, when insulin is up, that's going to inhibit the production of ketone to burn fat. So insulin being elevated because of the stress response is going to cause you to not be able to burn fat, not get into ketosis, and therefore it's also going to cause kind of this spiral where you're going to end up with hypoglycemia, because oftentimes you'll drop that blood sugar too low. Yeah. And another stress response and this is a vicious cycle, you've got to really keep your stress under control. Why I never tell anybody to start intermittent fasting or start a ketogenic diet. If you're already overwhelmed by stress, like if you would describe your life you'd say, I'm just overwhelmed by stress. Not a good time for you know a ketogenic diet or fast. That's more for somebody that's got stress under control. Now these are hacks that are going to really take really improve your body's ability to be more resilient to stress, to improve your fat burning, improve your brain, down regulate inflammation really powerfully. But first you have to get your stress under control and you've got to get your sleep under control because if you don't sleep well, then you're you're naturally going to be under a higher amount of stress. If you get if you're getting consistent poor nights of sleep, even if you don't feel stressed out during the day you're going to have higher stress hormones which is again going to cause that cascade of high blood sugar and high insulin.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally makes sense, and I see an email in my inbox that you sent me a couple of days ago for your newsletter and you talked about some of your favorite adaptogens. Yes. Again this is kind of what you probably plug in on the supplements that outside of diet and lifestyle modifications. I imagine you're probably using some adaptogens to help modulate this stress response. Is that true?
Dr. David Jockers: Oh absolutely. I love [inaudible]. A great one. Magnolia fish [inaudible] reishi mushroom. Yeah. Lemon bomb right. Very good relaxing herbs. If you want more energy, something like Rhodiola. Really good siberian ginseng. Another great one for energy. Right. The great thing about adaptogens is they're going to help balance you. So if you feel anxious, all right, and jittery, they're going to help bring you down, if you feel fatigued and lethargic, they're going to help bring you up. and that's the great thing about them. They just kind of modulate and help balance you out. Also a huge fan of magnesium too. Know I find that most people are deficient in magnesium some magnesium can be really really powerful for helping modulate the stress response, modulation means balancing. Right. That's what we want. You know we don't necessarily want to increase or decrease. We want what the body needs at the moment. Right. We want to help balance it out, so we were able to adapt to the environment adapt to the stressors we're under and be able to perform at our highest level. So those are those herbs and Magnesium here are key.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That makes sense because people I think forget like, they're so focused on their diet. Hey I'm trying to keep these carbohydrates down because these eventually will break down into glucose or fructose in my body and have potentially a negative effect at burning fats or cause insulin resistance. People forget that their cortisol levels can create surges of glucose through either protein in their body or just releasing glycogen that's already in their muscles and that can be the equivalent of having an extra carbohydrate that you wouldn't want to eat but eat you're not even eating it, it's being released internally from these different stores and you can still have deleterious effects, so the adaptogens like you mentioned I think are great, just getting those glute four receptors upregulated on the muscle, these are little fingers that help pull glucose into the muscle and you can do that by movement, by taking a walk after after an hour, or doing some bands or some resistance training to help soak up a lot of that glucose, that's really good points.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah absolutely. So important. A third big thing is to you know basically, you want to gradually move into Keto adaptations. So for some individuals I say about 25% percent of the population they can start today. They might have eaten 500, 500 grams of carbs yesterday for twenty five percent of the population. They can go down to 20 carbs and actually feel great within the first week. That's only 25 percent the population. The other 75 percent is gonna feel really crappy. Yeah. So what we want to do to be on the safe side is, gradually reduce your carbohydrate load. So if you were to take it for example, if you were to take this week or the next three days and just count out how many carbohydrates you're consuming, right. Subtract the fiber, so your net carbs, total carbs minus fiber that you consume on a daily basis, you keep track of your your macros and you can use like chronometer or something like that. See, see where your carbohydrate load is. Let's say you're consuming 250 grams of total carbs, right, in a day. OK great. So for the first week, all you do is you reduce it down by 50 grams. So for the first week, you're going down to 200 grams of net carbs. So total carbs minus fiber, you replace that with a couple grams of, well not a little bit more than a couple, but roughly about 10 grams of healthy fat. Right. So you eat a little bit, eat a few more olives, you know, a teaspoon of olive oil something along those lines, you just add that and while you take out the carbs, and then you do that each week you drop it down roughly about 50 grams each week. So if you started at 250, you know, by the time you get into the ketogenic range, it's roughly between 20 grams to 50 grams. It's about five or six weeks. Right. So you give your body time to start to adapt and build the metabolic machinery to be able to run on a lower carbohydrate diet and use fat for fuel. And I think that's a big thing. A lot of people try to jump right in, they try to go cold turkey and have a bad experience when you gradually shift into it. So you're leaning into it, shifting into it. You give your body time to build the metabolic machinery to get more familiar with that with ketones in the bloodstream. Right. So if you're eating 250 grams of carbs a day, your body has not seen ketones. It doesn't. It's not familiar with how to use them for energy. You've got to give it some time to see that in the bloodstream then it's going to up regulate the enzymatic systems to sort to use that for fuel. So that's a really important strategy. Just keep dropping it down roughly 40 to 50 grams of carbohydrates, replacing that with healthy fat or in some cases, healthy protein if you're on a very low protein diet, but replacing that until you get into that 20 to 50 gram range. And typically for somebody at sedentary. So if you're not doing a lot of movement, you're going to need to get your net carbs down in that 20, is certainly under 30 range and some in some cases under 20 if you're very insulin resistant, you're more active. You could find that you're going to get into a state of nutritional ketosis which is zero point five million miles or higher when you're testing your blood ketones with, you know, you probably are going to be able to handle up to 50 grams of net carbs and be in that range. And if you're extremely active high level athlete maybe they'll take up to 100 hundred and twenty grams in that carbs. So you got to kind of find the right zone for you. So once you get into that zone, I tell you, you know my recommendation is spend 30 days in that zone. I think 30 days in nutritional ketosis is extremely powerful for helping clean up cellular debris reset your systems. I mean ketones, epigenetic modulators. So they help to help your body to express genes are gonna have more anti aging benefits, are going to help upregulate mitochondria and support healthy mitochondria. So you spent 30 days in that and then you find a good carb cycling strategy after that. Right. For some people they like to carb cycle, you know, every other day, for some people it's you know once every 10 days, where you have a higher carb day where basically you're.. you're consuming more carbohydrates roughly somewhere between 50 and maybe up to one hundred and fifty grams of of net carbs depending on you. So if you tend to be more insulin resistance, you might do less. Like for me I tend to be more insulin resistant so I.. For me it's like a higher carb day might be 70 or 80 grams of net carbs. OK. Whereas for somebody else they may be able to tolerate a little bit more especially if they're very very active. So you've got to kind of find the right zone for you and then you drop back into ketosis. OK, find again, find the right strategy. So for some people they'll do a feast day once a week, where they're like one day a week where you know, they're eating 150 grams or 100 grams net carbs, so just consuming more carbs and for them that works great. Right. And then usually takes them two days or so to get back into ketosis. If you do a high carb day like that and it takes you a week to get back into ketosis, then you really shouldn't be carb cycling once a week right then you would probably want to carb cycle like once every two weeks once every month. Something along those lines. That way you're you're splitting your time right. You want to spend some time where your body is utilizing glucose right for fuel and basically resetting your glycogen stores. You also want to spend time in this state of nutritional ketosis. You got to find the right carbs cycling approach, and the strategy I like to apply is more of a carb backloading strategy. Yeah I like to eat less during the day I eat less food during the day hydrate. I do a lot of hydration during the day, keeps my energy high. It allows me to perform at a higher level because stress is the antagonist to good digestion, meaning that when we're under stress, we're not gonna be able to produce as much stomach as–
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct.
Dr. David Jockers: The bile pancreatic enzymes to digest our food well so I like to do more smoothies ,right, things that are predigested during daytime. I'll throw avocado in my my protein shakes so I get more healthy fats. But the blender is the job of the digestion and then the evening that's when I feast, right. That's when I had my big meal meat, right. Vegetables. Healthy fats on there. And I find that that approach works well and especially if you're going to add in more carbs, doing a lower carb during the day. So if you want to eat solid foods, eggs, right. Maybe like a big chicken salad with olives, and I'll add avocado and olive oil or something like that where it's low carb throughout the day and then when you add in the carbs, you do it more in the evening, your sweet potato, right, or your your steamed carrots, beets, if you want grains something like Quinoa or or rice or something along those lines, doing it more in the evening you're going to notice it. That's going to get better benefits. A lot of research on that for helping stimulate fat burning, right and supporting the sensitivity.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Some people, one of the side effects with Keto sometimes sleep can deteriorate and that could be from a hypoglycemic kind of episode before bed. So if that's happening, maybe adding a tiny bit of carbs or even a tablespoon of coconut oil to provide some more of those ketone precursors before bed to keep that blood sugar and add an additional fuel source outside of the blood sugar in your bloodstream.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah yeah for sure. Absolutely. And I think if you do the slow keto adaptation approach you'll notice less of a hypoglycemia. Which will definitely help you. Your bio get better and better at using ketones. But a big thing that I do see is that people aren't feasting. Right. So if you're under eating for a certain portion of the day you're eating a lower amount of calories in the evening. Definitely eat a higher amount of calories right to make up for it. And that is a mistake I see a lot of people make is they reduce the carbs but they don't they're not as generous with the fat. And therefore, they end up not just not consuming enough calories which can then cause the hypoglycemic type issues especially for like lean women. I see that a lot of lean women having that issue don't have as much body fat. The body's trying to protect the body fat tissue.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I see that all the time. You don't get enough fat in there to replace some of the carbs that are pulled out, then you could still be in a caloric deficit and that can still create a stress response. So I think that's really important because the whole goal is we have this kind of fuel partitioning mechanism imagine like an air traffic controller. Right. Planes come in. You point this way, you point that way, imagine an air traffic controller saying, OK go to the mitochondria get burnt up or go back into the fat cells and get burnt up get get stored. So we want to be an air traffic controller shuttling everyone to the mitochondria, to the muscle cell to get burnt and not get stored. And we have to change these cellular enzymes. We need more lipolytic, right, lipo meaning fat, lytic meaning to break down some more lipolytic hormone, sensitive light pace Growth Hormone thyroid hormone versus insulin, lin lipo eugenic hormones on the storing or formation side. So I think what you're saying these are just basically unregulated that air traffic control, what if they get burnt up and this cellular energy can't be snapped on and the more insulin resistant you are like you're highlighting, this may take a few weeks maybe even a month and you're having a tapering protocol just so it's not so painful. So you don't develop this Keto flu type of thing where you're you're tired, you're achy. Correct?
Dr. David Jockers: Oh yeah absolutely. So the keto flu is going to be related to hypoglycemia, you know the light imbalances like we talked about and HIPAA axis dysfunction or you know we'll be college adrenal fatigue. Right. So it's kind of a combination of all three of those and they all work together. So you're absolutely spot on and we want to be able to adapt and teach the body to be able to run and use fats for fuel. Right. That's the key there. Now another caveat to it. And Justin, you probably test fasting insulin on your patients is that correct? Yes. So I test that on all my patients right fasting insulin levels, and so normally if you're fasting for 12 to 14 hours you finished dinner let's say 6:00 p.m. You're doing your bloodwork at 8:00 a.m. something along those lines. Your ideal fasting insulin should be roughly somewhere around three to five right in that range. If you're on the lower end, they're like two three. OK, you probably need to do a little bit more carb cycling, you probably need a bump that insulin a little bit more. OK if you're on the higher end right. There's a lot of people out there you know they're they're insulin levels fasting insulin is 12 14 16. These are people that are going to do better doing fasting, right. Intermittent Fasting, longer fasting, and lower carb throughout the day to get that insulin level down. OK. So that's another caveat getting your fasting insulin levels tested. That's going to help you understand your carb tolerance right.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Just kind of piggyback on that, Christopher Gardner did an amazing study out of Stanford in 2007 called, The A to Z Study, and this study was interesting because he compared four different kinds of diets– he compared and Atkins style diet, and Ornish kind of you know higher carbohydrate more vegetarian diet, the Zone diet which is like a 40 30 30 and then I think a standard American diet. So there were four diets and it was interesting because the Atkins group, the lower carb group had the largest amount of success. But then there were still people that were successful in other groups and then they looked at the people and they tried to extrapolate why a lot of people in the act is that great. But why. There were some people in other groups and what they found in the higher carbohydrate groups, the people that did well were the ones that had their fasting insulin below seven. So in other words, the people that were more insulin sensitive, meaning their pancreas made the less insulin, they could tolerate the higher carbohydrates and that threshold was seven anything greater than 7 they could not tolerate the higher carb, and they only got success on the lower carb group because that helped bring their insulin back into balance. And I agree that study this seven I like two to five, I think gets a good point and I think this is really important people listen like you know we're practitioners so, we understand that there are some people that do well not following that exactly and the question is why? We don't want to be dogmatic and say no. Everyone has to and it's a rule it's tough but we have to understand why there may be some exceptions and that's I think one of the biggest data points that we can use to say hey these are the people that are going to benefit these you may be able to break the rules a bit and then we can actually have some objective data on that.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, absolutely because you do need insulin, you need insulin in particular for converting T four and T three. So you're active thyroid hormone and if you don't get that, know this is where we'll see people start to for example lose hair, when they get really really fatty, they get constipated, they get really really cold, when they're fasting, or on a ketogenic diet it's a sign that it probably ban under consuming calories right as a whole. And possibly not carb cycling enough. Right. And that's really big. So even on a low even on a low carb diet, if you do like a very high calorie meal once a day. OK. So where you're doing like maybe under eating, lower amounts of calories for a period of time and then of a larger meal, your body is going to still secrete a lot of insulin like on a low carb diet. When you. Eat a lot of food your body's excrete a lot of insulin. OK. And so you want to get at least, unless you're like in a period where you're just doing an extended fast for a specific reason, you want to get a really good shot of insulin at least once a day. I really once no more than twice a day in my opinion. OK. But you want it when you do get it, you want to get a good shot of it. What happens is in our society it's like people are just continually spiking it because we're eating all the time right. We're eating every several hours just continually getting spikes of insulin that promotes too much inflammation right. Insulin is going to activate your inflammatory home right and amplify inflammation throughout your body. But if you strategically get it, once, maybe twice a day. Right, a really good spike of it then that's going to get. That's the right amount to activate thyroid hormone to enhance cellular energy production is a lot of good benefits that are going to come from that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think that's great. And what's your strategy on mealtime and I know we've talked about this as, I think for a while you were doing kind of o mad one meal a day. How are you timing your meals and then how do you dial that in for patients exact.
Dr. David Jockers: So here's how I do it personally now. I'm about one hundred, one hundred sixty five pounds strong, I'm an 8 percent body fat it's mostly just muscle tissue, and the way I do it is I workout four days a week, when I workouts very intense strength training, so I'm usually working out for about 45 minutes or so strength training. Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday are typically my spring training days and what I do is on Wednesday, and on Saturday, I only do one meal one meal on those days, usually it's lunch dates, whatever's most convenient for me I'm usually eating lunch I find that I just do best at that time. Right so one o'clock, two o'clock, something like that having a really good really good solid lunch and then that's it, you know just hydrating outside of that and then on the other days, I'm consuming two meals, lunch and dinner, right now typically my dinners are usually my largest meal of the day. I'm consuming a lot of a lot of food right. I mean I'll easily consume fifteen hundred calories or so, you know a typical dinner. All right. And usually my lunch, if not, I mean I probably could even consume two thousand calories, my dinner and my lunch is usually probably somewhere around five hundred eight hundred calories, somewhere in that range. OK. And yeah that's how I do it and I function amazing in fact my best sleep. My heart rate variability gets really high on my fasting days so when I'm, when I'm sleeping. Wednesday night and Saturday night it's like I wake up the next day. I just feel amazing like so good. And that's why I do it. In fact if I didn't lose weight. When I would do one meal a day if I didn't lose weight when I get it. So what happens is I tried that and I started losing muscle. I started losing weight and I'm already very lean as it is, very very thin. Five foot eleven hundred and sixty hundred sixty five pounds so so I feel amazing when I'm fasting but obviously I don't want to lose weight. So. So that's why I do the two meals five days a week. One meal two days a week seems to work amazing for me. Now when I do eat, I eat a lot of food. My wife's always like, wow I'm fond of food. So in order to be able to digest that food effectively at its most effective level. I think a lot of digestive enzymes. OK. From time to time, if I'm under more stress, I'll take a little bit of stomach acid support it would be THCL. Typically speaking a bunch of digestive enzymes works great for me. OK. And that works well and then I also take a supplement that has Curcumin, Turmeric, right. It's also got a whole bunch of bitter herbs. It's called fermented turmeric right. It's got a bunch of different bitter herbs are really good for stimulating digestive juices production. So I think a combination of those and my digestion is great. OK. And that's right I feel really good with it. And that's typically my lunch most days, my lunch is liquid nutrition so usually I'm making a smoothie with Collagen protein. Yeah. Coconut milk, avocado in there. That's usually my lunch and I might munch on like a cucumber that that I cut up and put some lemon juice on, some salt and some herbs. Right. Or maybe radishes. I'm crunching you know, chewing on some radishes. So it's usually some sort of raw vegetable. Along with this sort of smoothie. And then for dinner it's usually a lot of meat. So whether it's grass fed beef, or we do like grass fed beef hotdogs and I'm familiar with those. Yeah those were great. Lots of vegetables so like steamed broccoli or cauliflower to make up mashed potatoes, and cauliflower all times calling mashed potatoes, broccoli with butter. So we do a lot of that. You know we started using this thing called [inaudible]. Now if you're familiar with that, it's hearts of palm, it's pasta. It's pasta with hearts of palm and then it's great. My wife makes this amazing pesto right. We put pesto on that which has got olive oil and avocado and pine nuts and all kinds of stuff like that. So it's just a scrape,we put chicken with that. So different things, different meals like that. So typically how I'm doing it.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That's great. Excellent. I did something similar as well typically in my day in day out. I'm having some level of coffee in the morning with some butter at MCT and a little bit of collagen and that's my breakfast, somewhere at three four hours later, I'll have a nice glass of celery juice and I'm definitely drinking mineral water throughout the day ,and then my lunch is going to be a big salad typically, it'll be about four, maybe five servings of vegetables, it'll be a full avocado maybe six to eight ounces of chicken chicken thigh, or chicken breast with skin on and then an olive oil, olive oil apple cider kind of sea salt pepper type of salad, and then dinner will be some level of non starchy veg if maybe a little bit of starch, in there squash or sweet potatoes, and then mostly meat and vegetables, and then typically my Saturday, is my wife and I will have a date night and we'll do like a steak restaurant and now I'll just fast all day and I'll just that one meal when I go out to eat. Typically that one day it's nice. I'll still do coffee with a little bit MCT just to kind of start my day off and get those ketones up and then I'll just kind of ride that high all day long. And people listening if you have a lot of hormone issues or thyroid issues or blood sugar issues, you have to have some level of one metabolic stamina imbalance before you do it and to have that really good digestion like you mentioned, because now your meal is probably twice as big when you eat at nighttime and you really need the enzymes in the acids and good digestive function to be able to handle that load.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah I mean I think that's really really important is you know, for me for example, I don't actually get hungry. I don't feel hungry throughout the day. I don't get hungry till I start eating. Once I start eating, I'm like OK my body wakes up it's like, OK I need a lot I need food, right. And that's actually when I get hungry. So for me it's very liberating, fasting is so liberating because I don't I just need to think about food, I'm not hungry I don't have cravings my body feels great my brain feels amazing feels alive so it's so good. But you're right I mean fasting is a level of fitness. It's kind of like you know if you were just if you, if you've never exercised and then you think OK I'm going to do a 5k and I'm going to sprint 5K obviously it's not going to happen right. You're going to be so sore and beat up so you've got to kind of lean into it right. I always said people start with twelve hours overnight–
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 12 to 12 is the easiest to start with, you know, 7 to 7 or 8 to 8.
Dr. David Jockers: Simple fast just like that, and then do the water like we talked about in beginning it. Yes. You just hydrate your body well in the morning and allow for the natural hunger to come out, for a lot of people they notice 14 hours easy. Like my kids they finished dinner with us. We're usually done eating dinner by 6:30. My kids sleep till like 8:30 in the morning. I don't know if, I don't know if, if if you're if your child is like that too.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Same way same way and it's all nutrition based. Like my son for dinner last night I mean he had a grass fed organic hot dog, a cut of avocado. And then he's having a hard time with green vegetables. We're getting green beans with sea salt on an organic green drink no added sugar no fruit juice in there and that will kind of pile that throughout the day and its meal. So yeah. I see kids that wake up. It's all a lot of it's blood sugar and it's not getting enough fat. If that is humanly you gotta have that.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. So important got to have the fat so my kids will go well we'll finish there by 6:30. We get him in bed by 8:30. They sleep till 8:30. They wake up. They take a bath right by the time they get breakfast. It's usually like 9:30 or so. Right there. I mean they're getting late and they're fast growing kids, three and a half year olds. Right. So they're getting like a 15 hour fast right there. Yes. And that's because we have and they're not on a ketogenic diet. They are, they're definitely consuming carbs. Healthy carbs but they always have the healthy fats and they're still on a lower carbohydrate template than your typical modern Americans ,or your typical sad diet. And so because of that they have better metabolic flexibility right. They're able to go 15 hours here without consuming food. So what I find is that for most people 14 hours as long as you hydrate well as long as you're sleeping well. Right. Doing those things. Not an issue. Right. And then especially if you do feel like you're overwhelmed with stress or if you tend to be like a very lean woman or a lean woman that's doing a lot of exercise. OK then one thing we'll try to do is something called crescendo fasting, I'm not sure if you're familiar with that now but that's basically where we do a 16 hour fast. Two days a week. Non consecutive days. So be like a Monday Friday. Right. So fasting is a stressor on the body just like exercise is a stressor. So exercise may you know exercise is great, but if you do exercise five days in a row. Right. It will too stressful on the body. Yeah. I don't recommend exercising more than two days in a row. After two days. I recommend taking a rest day. Like for me I do upper body. One day and then a lower body the next day and then the next day is always on resting. OK. So unless you're like a high level athlete I wouldn't wreck it there's just no reason you actually the recovery is is where you get the most benefit. Right. You need to recover. So two days in a row. Same thing with fasting especially if you're new at it or if you've been under stress or if you tend to be leaner. Leaner female then not doing it more than two days in a row and ideally a better way to start would be two non consecutive days a week, Monday Friday for example. Or your, your least stressful days like just you're doing your long fast on a Saturday. Yep. Less stress on Saturday you're hanging out with the family. Yeah. So it's easier for you.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. Well Dr. David this is amazing. Lots of great tips. I think people that are listening to a lot of these tips are clinical as well. So we're in the trenches working with patients so these aren't theoretical things you know things that actually works out you know take it to heart, try to find at least one thing in this podcast that resonates and try to apply it. I think there's some great information and for all you out there, head over to DrJockers.com. Make sure you subscribe to his email list. Also Keto Edge Summit, we'll put a link down below if you guys are listening, just click there. Make sure you sign up to get access to all the great speakers and great content that's available. Dr. Jockers, anything else you'd like to leave the listeners with today?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, I would just I would say, you know, definitely the Keto Edge Summit is great, we talk about all these types of things how to get fat adapted more effectively, how to kind of lean into fat agitation, like I was talking about before how to navigate through you know things like the Keto flu, how to prevent getting it and you know the tremendous benefits that can come from a state of nutritional ketosis. You know I'm a huge fan of diet variation, meaning that you're not always in ketosis. Well I mean I would say some people probably about 20 percent of the population, 20 25 percent that will do great. Being in ketosis, you're rounds right. But then you have the other 75 to 80 percent that are not going to do good. Being in ketosis your rounds. They need to cycle in and out. Right. You know for whatever period of time works best for them. So we go through that, Keto Edge Summit, and you know it's really the goal of personalized nutrition. You know there's there's no cookie cutter approach. You got a kind of find what works best for your own unique individuality.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Dr. Jockers, thank you so much for all this great information. We'll be in touch. You take care.
Dr. David Jockers: Alright sounds good. Thank you.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.