Living with Lyme disease can be a very challenging and painful experience. A great number of people cope with the symptoms of Lyme disease on a daily basis that can go on for weeks, months to years. Find out more about this condition and its related co-infections as well as ways to progress in one’s journey to recovery from this persistent and debilitating disease.
Lyme disease is a tick-borne disease that is spread by way of tick bites which permits the transmission of the bacterium called “spirochete”, specifically borrelia burgdoferi, through the skin to infect the body.
Early symptoms include flu-like sensations, muscles and joint pains, fevers, chills, fatigue and burning sensations. More severe symptoms develop like swelling of joints, problems affecting nervous system, and heart problems that can go for several weeks, month or even years later, if not detected or left untreated.
There are about 300,000 cases of Lyme disease every year according to CDC estimates affecting several states.
In this episode, we will cover:
1:53 Dealing with Lyme Disease: The Forsgren’s Story
12:12 Co-infections: Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella, Ehrlichia
30:13 Treatment options and lab testings
Justin Marchegiani: Hey there, it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani and welcome back to Beyond Wellness Radio. Today I have a treat for all of our listeners today. We have Scott Forsgren, otherwise known as the Better Health Guy and I am pretty sure Scott said its betterhealthguy.com. Is that correct, Scott?
Scott Forsgren: That is right, Dr. Justin.
Justin Marchegiani: All right, great. So Scott is, I would consider, one of the most premiere experts on Lyme Disease as well as Co-Infections they coordinate or kind of come with Lyme disease and Scott is going to break down some of this different conditions: what to look out for, testings, supplements. Scott has been dealing with his own Lyme/Co‑Infection issues for almost twenty years. So he has really researched it. Seen some of the best doctors in the world, gotten the best treatment. He knows what has worked for him, what has worked for the patients that he sees now. I think he can provide just a really excellent perspective that most other people maybe have never heard before. So, Scott welcome to the show.
Scott Forsgren: Thanks so much, Dr. Justin. Good to be here.
Justin Marchegiani: Awesome. So, Scott can you just share your story with all of our listeners. It’s very unique. You dealt with Lyme almost twenty years ago and you were kind of dumped right into the trenches, saw a lot of practitioners, did lots of things. Can you outline your story for everyone?
Scott Forsgren: Sure. My story started in Northern California in 1996. Where I had a tick bite in Sea Ranch California and of course, Lyme disease at that time everyone thought does not exist in California and so no one really thought anything about it. And then in 1997, everything pretty much fell apart. It started off in one weekend where it felt like a really significant flu, I had burning sensations throughout my entire body. And those symptoms just continued to get worse and worse. Some of the most significant ones being some of the neurological symptoms like burning sensations from head to toe that lasted 24 hours a day. A fever that went on for over a year. Muscle pain, joint pain, digestive problems. I mean, there’s a huge list of things that can be associated with Lyme disease and I would say that I experienced probably the majority of them. It took about eight years before the first person ever mentioned Lyme disease as a possibility. So, I was pretty much bed-ridden for the first four years. I would say I probably spent 12 to 16 hours a day in bed during the first four years.
Justin Marchegiani: Wow!
Scott Forsgren: I then had a reasonable period of what I thought was being back to a fairly good, stable place. Not knowing then that it was, in fact, Lyme disease. So from about 2000 to 2004, things were not perfect but they were certainly pretty good. I was functioning well, working fulltime, doing all those things. And then in 2004, pretty much overnight, the symptoms came back on again. With the burning sensations and I would say that the second time around was as bad as the first. Fortunately, I kind of hit the reset button and found some new doctors. They really had no idea. And at this point, this was already probably 50 doctors, you know, neurologists and every other specialty that I have been to. Those folks at some of the best medical institutions that really have no idea what might be wrong other than being a psychosomatic stress-induced kind of illness, which I knew that I was not. But after so many people tell you that is what it is, you do kind of question yourself and wonder are you really creating all these things which, you know, I really did not think that I was. And so, in 2005 someone finally suggested that I work with a practitioner that does a form of energetic testing called Electroacupuncture according to Voll or Electrodermal screening which is not really a conventional tool but it is a tool that can give people some insight. I know you are familiar with various form of kinesiology.
And so, that person was kind of tasked with identifying the foods that were triggering my symptoms. Then I was supposed to avoid all those foods and that was supposed to be the fix. Fortunately, that person, who at that time, worked in an outlet mall next to a Starbucks Coffee Shop that had this computer that made all kinds of interesting noises for an hour was the first person that said, “I think you should really go back and have your doctor test you for borrelia, which is the main causative agent in Lyme disease. For babesia, for bartonella and for ehrlichia.” And those are three of the co‑infections that can come with Lyme disease. There are certainly others. So I kind of walked out of that session with that practitioner thinking, you know, this is a little bit odd. I was not really rushing back to the doctor because I was not sure that I believed what they have come up with. And so she kept kind of urging me, “You really need to go and get tested.” So I went back and we did a round of Igenex testing and some other testing and it definitely revealed some of the things that she had found. And then as we re-tested over the course of the next 6 to 12 months, we ended up having a positive test for the co‑infections and indications for borrelia as well. So, it was really interesting. At that time the doctor that I was working with was said, “You know, it’s interesting because I do treat a lot of people with Lyme and you have a lot of the symptoms of Lyme and I am not sure why I didn’t connect the dots, at that point in time.” But fortunately, this lady who had a very unique kind of off‑the‑beat pathway of evaluating the stressors in the body was the first one to mention Lyme disease. And then, I went to many other places after that to try to find treatment on such. You know, it’s definitely something that took me in my prime. A couple of years after I have gotten out of college and was just starting into my career, and had never really had any significant health problems and it completely knocks you down to the point that you know you are not really sure if you will survive it or can continue struggling through the pain of the disease for another day. So, it definitely takes you to your lowest, darkest place. And then the challenge and the beauty is trying to find your way back and re-inventing yourself and coming back with a different perspective about the world.
Justin Marchegiani: So, regarding your health at that time, you were like what 21? 22?
Scott Forsgren: Gosh, when it started I was 25.
Justin Marchegiani: 25. And how was your health then like? Were you eating well? Were you sleeping well? Were you managing stress in your life? How was your overall health?
Scott Forsgren: Well, it’s an interesting question because I would say that the majority of people that I connect with that are dealing with Lyme were type A+ personalities. (Laughs) So it’s pretty rare that you find a person with Lyme that was a really chill, kind of relaxed character. So, no I had a lot of type A, it’s not even tendencies I mean that is really an understatement. I definitely was type A, I was always the A student. I have lots of emotional stress growing up as a child.
Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Scott Forsgren: I had a number of things that kind of set the stage for adrenal challenges that then affect my immune system along with the stress. And so, you know looking back, well, I had not yet hit the point that the scale was kind of tipped and everything fell apart. There certainly were things that set the stage. I think, you know, the emotional backdrop of the person’s life has a huge, huge part of any of these chronic illnesses and that is something that you have to dig really deep to explore and make sure that you got to a point that you feel that you really do deserve to be well. You know, that was a big challenge for me. I had learned to do some of my own muscle testing at that point. And I would muscle test for, I am willing to be well and I would get yes. And I am able to be well and I would get yes. And then I would say I deserve to be well and I would get no and I am like, “My God I am testing myself and I am getting no. That is pretty bad.”
Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Scott Forsgren: I probably worked with a good dozen of practitioners just on the emotional front, you know. What is it that I have internalized, that maybe is not supporting my health? What are stressors that I am putting upon myself that are kind of creating that. Yet the other thing that we just, the last couple of years, identified that I think also set the stage for this was I had had my wisdom teeth removed in high school and I had developed a dry socket in high school. And of course, all they did was to pack it with a bunch of antibiotic gauze and those kinds of things and never thought anything about it again. And two years ago, I was working with a practitioner in St. Louis who is just absolutely phenomenal, fantastic Dr. Simon Yu. He has written a book called “Accidental Cure” for those that are interested in trying to help get their way back from mysterious type conditions. And he was the person who suggested that there were some cavitations or some infected areas where those wisdom teeth had been removed and that was another important piece for me to address as well. So, you know kind of tying it back to you question, I think it was another thing that happened early in my life that there was this chronic infection that was already there from the wisdom tooth extraction back in high school that probably had already kind of weaken my immune system’s ability to maintain balance. And then once the Lyme came along combined with all the other stressors of having just moved from, at that time I was living in Texas. And having moved from Texas to California and being here in Silicon Valley in a very high-stress kind of environment and a new career and working really hard and all those things. Drinking 10 free diet Cokes a day that the office provides for us so you can be caffeined-up and working hard. You know that kind of stuff.
Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.
Scott Forsgren: So, I was aware of alternative and integrative health and was doing it. I was already on supplements and things back then. But you know, no I think although my health felt relatively good, I mean I definitely had signs that things are not perfect. I had tremendous problems with headaches during high school, college and that was a major focus. I had periods where I had probably stress-related, but periods where I had had some blood pressure related problem and things along those lines. I think it’s probably unlikely that someone gets exposed to Lyme and was completely 100% healthy and vital before and then had some really significant challenge. I am not saying it does not happen.
Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Scott Forsgren: But I think when you look back, there is usually some…
Justin Marchegiani: Stressor. Right.
Scott Forsgren: Some things that set the stage or if you look in people’s families, you know, you look at their mom’s health or their sibling’s health that may have multiple auto-immune type conditions, where the immune system did not respond to some microbe or toxin or something in an appropriate way. I think you can kind of see that it may seem like a big surprise but when you really look a little deeper and someone like you, I know is amazing with pulling out all these great functional medicine, pieces of information. I know you are probably connecting the dots for people all the time.
Justin Marchegiani: Right, right. I appreciate you sharing that story. There was an interesting article that came out about twenty years ago on the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. And the title of the article was “The synergism between nutrition, infection and immunity.” And again, I have looked at all these nutritional deficiencies, stress kind of setting the table up for these chronic infections. So, we are kind of like in two places. You can be the person that is not infected yet but can make a lot of these changes to make themselves more resistant. And then we have the person that is already infected. They are dealing with this infection. They have some of these symptoms. Can you just talk about just a couple of main co-infections? We have bartonella, we have borrelia or Lyme, we have ehrlichia. Can you just go through those big four of five co-infections, Scott? What are some of the big symptoms that are going to be correlated with each infection?
Scott Forsgren: Okay. That is a good question. So, I think in order to talk about Lyme at all we really kind of have to dig in to the co-infections that I would suggest almost universally come with it. I think if you talk to doctors and practitioners that work with Lyme disease it is a rare, rare person that has borrelia alone.
Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Scott Forsgren: I would say that it’s almost universal that people have babesia and bartonella as well. They may or may not have both of them. But when someone is bitten by a tick or other vectors, ticks may not be the only vector for Lyme disease, so that is the focus and the one that really has been proven as a way of transmitting these infections. There are generally multiple infections that a person could be exposed to. The first one, borrelia burgdorferi is the causative agent in Lyme. That is the spirochete that everybody talks about. And then we have other ones, probably the most common ones babesia, bartonella and ehrlichia. I would say that ehrlichia is a little less common than babesia and bartonella. And in my experience, I had all of them. And then there are others that are not quite as commonly discussed but things like parvovirus B19, tick borne encephalitis virus, coxiella or Q fever, tularemia. There are all kinds of mycoplasmas, nematodes and other things that these ticks can carry as well.
Justin Marchegiani: Right. Just to be clear, ehrlichia, Rocky Mountain spotted fever and anaplasmosis are all the same, right?
Scott Forsgren: Well, everything used to be called ehrlichia and that was kind of split out. So Ehrlichia and anaplasma are very similar and the Rocky Mountain spotted fever is one of the rickettsial organisms but they are similar.
Justin Marchegiani: Okay.
Scott Forsgren: And then beyond the co-infections, worse than you kind of get into all the things that people already carried in their bodies: the Epstein-Barr and other more opportunistic things and so those are something that we need to think about as well. But if we look at kind of the core microbes involved in Lyme, I am always a little cautious because I think people with Lyme tend to hyper focus on Lyme. It’s almost even a bad term because it gives us license to ignore all of the other things that we have to look at to get better. And it gives practitioners license to continue treating those few things when maybe they do need adrenal support or thyroid support or hormone support or a better diet or they are living in a multi-home and I will probably get into some of those things. But kind of back to your question. So, borrelia. The things that often come up were things like joint pains, stiffness, swelling, fever, chills, some gastrointestinal issues, vision issues like blurry vision, twitching is a common one, self-fasciculations where you just kind of feel little taps in the muscles. That is a very common thing and can be related to bartonella as well. Borellia can be depression, memory issues. Fatigue is a really common one and people that have these kinds of vector borne, you know Lyme complex issues. It can certainly affect your sleep. It can create headaches and ringing in the ears. Neck and upper back pain is a common thing. Tremors, some more mental emotional things like anxiety, depression. Light sensitivity and then once it gets into the central nervous system which surely does not take a long time for that to happen then you get some of the other numbness, tingling, crawling sensation, burning sensations. And the burning sensations were probably my worst. Where you went for years with what felt like someone have poured acid on your skin 24 hours a day. I had a whole summer where I could not put on a shoe or a sock because it was just so painful.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.
Scott Forsgren: And then, the list of borrelia if you look, I think there’s over 300 symptoms and they kind of scroll through that. There is a couple of films now, documentaries on Lyme called, “Under Our Skin”. And then it just came out with a follow up which is called, “Emergence”. For people who really want to learn more about Lyme, I think those are great films. They can be a little frightening if someone has just getting diagnosed with Lyme. But I think it is better now that there is a follow up movie where you can see the same people in the first movie really have found better states of health and wellness. Because the first movie, it is quite frightening when you see how impacted these people are. Especially one of the main person in the documentary. She was really, really impaired with Lyme. Today, she is doing incredibly well. Is working in a hospital as a nurse and you know, really changed her life and now she is giving back. But bartonella is another one that is quite, honestly, I think yes borrelia probably sets the stage for a lot of these things to be more persistent and more chronic. But if you look at the symptoms, I would say bartonella and babesia are the ones that really probably created more of the symptoms that people really struggled with. Bartonella, things like anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder. We actually call it Bartonella Rage.
Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Scott Forsgren: Because people that are nice, last time I have worked with some people that were teenage ladies, girls that is just seems so nice and yet their families would talk about how they might be like that one minute and then the next minute they are throwing things at them and breaking things, breaking dishes and glasses and all kinds of things. There’s a lot of these microbial issues that can affect behavior as well. Obsessive-compulsive disorder can be tied in with bartonella. I tend to be a little bit on the obsessive‑compulsive side which I know you already know. (Laughs) That can play a role. And then, bartonella also can affect the gastrointestinal system. So, lots of gastrointestinal issues. It’s very common that people with bartonella would wake up and say that the soles of their feet are hurting and that kind of improves throughout the day. You can actually get what looks like stretch marks. But it doesn’t necessarily go along the same skin place that you would expect to see with normal stretch marks that are called striae. Twitching, again with bartonella is very common. Light sensitivity. Swollen lymph nodes, it definitely has an affinity for the lymphatic system. Nodules under the skin, mood swings. The thing that is interesting about bartonella is it is really a vascular infection that impacts the endothelium and the lining of the vessels. And so it leads to this small vessel disease that creates impairments in blood flow throughout the entire body. So any symptom that you could get as a result of having an impairment of blood flow and circulation to any part of the body potentially could result from bartonella. I think Bartonella maybe is the one that is creating more of the symptoms for a lot of people and it is also probably more challenging to treat than borrelia, this has been my observation. Babesia is another big one. Let me step back. Babesia little bit different. Borrelia is spirochete kind of bacteria. Bartonella is bacteria. Babesia is actually a parasite. It lives in the red blood cell and it is kind of a cousin of Alaria. And it creates things like headaches, night sweats or day sweats. So you’ll talk to people that are, they are literally drenched at night while they are sleeping and they have to get up and change their night clothes or their sheets or whatever several times just because the night sweats are so significant. Air hunger is a common one. You just feel like you can’t get a deep enough breath. Sometimes, people will have the little red dots on the skin; the Cherry angiomas can be a factor in babesia as well though both bartonella and babesia can create a whole list of skin specific presentations. Babesia can also cause ringing in the ears. So a lot of people who have a cough are really chronic, dry cough that last for long periods of time or flushing sensations in the face and skin and those kinds of things. Ehrlichia then are anaplasma. I would think of things like fevers, fatigues, headaches, pain and then low white blood cell count is a common one with ehrlichia. Well, that can be a factor in Lyme. Overall, when the white blood cell count is low that may be a reason to also think about ehrlichia. I think part of the challenge is, you know, when you have one of these infections and you can kind of map it to one list of symptoms where it become pretty easy but that’s usually not the case. Usually you have such a significant overlap and not only these infections but the parasites, the viruses, the mycoplasmas, the fungal yeast can be the type organisms. So when you start kind of looking at all the overlapping list of symptoms it is really difficult to take the symptoms and lead that to a conclusion of which infection is driving it. And then you have the additional complexity that you look at the list of things for heavy metal toxicity and you look at the list of things for molds toxicity and so many of the symptoms overlap the same things that we just talked about for these vector-borne infections.
Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.
Scott Forsgren: It is really hard to differentiate just by the symptoms.
Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So there’s a lot of different questions here we can ask based on each of these. We are going to definitely have you back to for a Part Two because I know we are going to really want to get deep on this. I know this is a huge epidemic. Based on that, can you talk about how common these issues are, I mean, we talk about Lyme disease and you hear people at the CDC or your conventional MD saying, “Well, that is not endemic here. That is only in maybe the upper North East in Lyme, Connecticut area or some area in and around there. Can you talk about how common these infections are? And then where in the country we may find these?
Scott Forsgren: No, I think you can find them pretty much in every state, at this point. I read something recently that said that there have been people in all 50 states that have been impacted by Lyme. There certainly are people that would question whether or not they contracted it in those states or they got it somewhere else travelled to Nantucket or somewhere back East and just happened to be back in their states. But, I know people that had very, very difficult decade plus long journeys with Lyme that were infected in Hawaii. And most people don’t think of Hawaii as a place that they would get Lyme.
Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Scott Forsgren: Most people don’t think of that California as a place that you could get Lyme. And then back to Northern California, specifically is one of the areas that has a very significant number of people dealing with Lyme. It’s not just the East anymore. It’s not just the United States. If I look at all the people that kind of track what I am posting and stuff on my Facebook page, there are many, many different countries. Lots of Europe countries. I have talked to people in Brazil and it’s a very common problem in people in Brazil as well. I think the number of people that know that they have Lyme; in fact, the CDC revised their estimates not too long ago suggesting that it was probably 10 times more than what it had been in the past. And I believe they have suggested now up to 300,000 cases a year which I think many people that are treating people with Lyme would probably suggest that is probably underestimated. And if you then look at people with other conditions, I am not one to suggest that things like MS, Parkinson’s, ALS and all those are Lyme disease. But I would suggest that those are conditions that have a component of infection. A component of toxicity and a component of everything else that Lyme has and if you look, many of these people with multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s, ALS and neurodegenerative conditions even Alzheimer’s, Lyme may have been a factor. And so, the question is how many people maybe have had Lyme that never got diagnosed and they lived with it as a stressor that their body largely balances and is able to maintain some sort of a state of health for years and years and as they get older maybe they will have another one of these conditions and then they get tested for Lyme and, in fact, they also had Lyme. Now, whether Lyme was the driving factor or not, it is difficult to say and probably in all of those cases it’s probably not. It’s probably a host of things but fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue as well. And I have known so many people, in fact, before my Lyme diagnosis I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia and I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. And while there are some unique presentations in those illnesses, there’s also a lot of overlap in that. Infections are common, toxicity is common. I know a number of people that really identified more with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue in the past. They got tested for Lyme, they got tested for co-infection. Sure enough they had Lyme. They had co-infections does not mean that Lyme is their sole issue. But unfortunately I think what has kind of happened is a lot of these things have become labels and they are just slight different variations of labels that represent some combinations of bugs and some combination of toxins and some probably epigenetic and genetic factors that are involved in your immune system’s response to how the body reacts to these things. But I do think that there’s a number of people out there where Lyme is one of the stressor that their body is dealing with and the co-infections as well that don’t even know about it. There has been some research done by Judy Miklossy and also separately some research that was done by Alan MacDonald who is one of my heroes and I have met several times. And it’s just amazing what he has done for research around Lyme disease. And they have both talked about finding the DNA, spirochetes in the brains of people with Alzheimer’s. In some cases, maybe Lyme and in some cases maybe other spirochetes like treponema denticola which is a fairly common dental spirochete. But a lot of these conditions that are neurological, I think more and more we will find that infections and toxicity play a huge role. And it is interesting too I think it’s still highly debated in terms of you know the infectious disease society of America has one perspective online which is that it is difficult to get and easy to cure. And the ILADS (The International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society has a different perspective which is that it is relatively easy to get and relatively difficult to cure especially after some period of time where it’s really not in that acute stage anymore. I think that there is a lot more awareness around Lyme disease now. We are seeing more and more discussions about it in the media. When I first got sick, Google did not even exist. There were very few online support groups like there are now.
Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.
Scott Forsgren: There’s very little talk about Lyme disease. I do not even know if there was ILADS yet or a lymedisease.org. I am not sure when they came into the picture. They have both been around for quite a while and do some amazing work. The awareness about the disease is certainly increasing. I think even more recently where we see celebrities that are finally starting to speak out. You know, there have been a number of them that for years there has been talk about certain celebrities having potentially had Lyme disease. There’s been talk about Alec Baldwin is one potentially. There has been talk about Richard Gere. There has been talk a lot over the years of people that Lyme may have been an issue for them. But now we know Yolanda Foster who is married to David Geffen and one of The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. She has had a tremendously difficult journey through Lyme. I think she is probably as a result of her journey going to make some significant changes because she has the resources to go out and really explore a number of different types of treatment options. Hopefully as a result of that, some things will come out it that will make things easier for people that are dealing with Lyme and in terms of accessing treatment. Avril Lavigne just came out.
Justin Marchegiani: Yes, I just saw that on your Facebook. Avril Lavigne I saw that one too.
Scott Forsgren: Yes. So apparently she had struggled with it, I think for almost a year. I believe it was last April that she started getting sick. And you know, no one, none of her fans or anything really had any idea of you know, that she had pretty much just completely gone off the scene. And no one was really clear what was wrong with her and so she just finally came out. There was a good article I believe it was in People Magazine talking about her story and it sounds like she is getting back to a better place. Debbie Gibson was another one last year, singer as well who had a very significant journey with Lyme.
And so I think there is more awareness. There certainly is still somewhat of a political divide in terms of how to approach treatment. Some people suggest that if you do antibiotic therapy for 28 days and you are not well that what you have is something called Post-Lyme Disease Syndrome which means you do not have infection anymore and we do not know why you have symptoms but we kind of gave it our best shot versus someone who would suggest that there’s many, many studies that show persistence of infection in animal models and others that has been treated for a long periods of time with the antibiotics. And that these bugs are still there. And so, that kind of group of people would suggest that longer term treatment is beneficial and that people do continue to improve with antibiotic and other treatment. When I first got ill, actually when I first got diagnosed, this was 8 years into having been ill. As of 2005, that there was not a lot out there in terms of treating Lyme disease. The option then was antibiotics, antibiotics or antibiotics. You pick which one you want. That was kind of what I had. We did not then have Stephen Buhner. Just came out with his first book Healing Lyme in 2005 the year that I got diagnosed. There was just the very beginning of something called the Cowden Protocol from Nutramedix. I think Samento existed around 2003.
Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Scott Forsgren: We didn’t have Beyond Balance Formulas, we didn’t have Byron White Formulas, we didn’t have any of these tools that we have now. While I definitely see people that worked with their doctors and do need antibiotics, there are certainly some people that natural herbal integrative options just don’t seem to be enough to manage their symptoms. I would have done things a little bit differently now. Maybe I would have still done antibiotics because I did get some pretty significant symptom relief especially in those neurological burning sensations within the first 6 to 9 months. They pretty much resolved. I may still have done some antibiotics. But now there are so many options out there and I think especially for people that are not quite as deep in the hole as I was when I first started getting treatment. And then if they are relatively functional, I think there are so many options out there now: integrative, alternative, herbal type, homeopathic type options. I know you are familiar with a lot these things and I think that the beauty of all those things is you can move things forward but you are not necessarily having some of the same collateral damage, right? So once you’ve done, you know, one of challenges for me even to this day is being really cautious and careful about diet, doing all the right things to continue to support the gut. Because after you have been on antibiotics for three and a half years for every day, you can only imagine that your gut flora is probably not in the best shape.
Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So on that note, I want to shift the conversation just a little bit to some of these options here. And even before that, we kind of have like the classical conventional diagnosis from the CDC: 5 IgG bands, is it 2 or 3 IgM bands. And then we have this kind of alternative diagnosis and then we have people that are already been coming up positive on testing. And we are maybe using a more energetic test like Dr. Klinghardt’s ART or a muscle testing type of energetic technique to diagnose these things or even just symptoms. Can you just briefly compare conventional versus the alternative testing versus energetic testing?
Scott Forsgren: Yes. So I think conventional testing is certainly important and appropriate. So I would not suggest that somebody avoid doing some of that more conventional testing because I think it is important for many people to see on paper that, “Oh yes, look I do have some really significant issues here that I need to deal with.” So doing the Igenex western blot, I think is a very good thing to consider. Doing their panels for co-infection testing, I think is a great thing. To your point about the criteria being a little bit different, Igenex looks at some bands that the CDC does not. So 31 and 34 specifically that are not part of the standard conventional western blot anymore because they were used as part of vaccine development for the LYMErix vaccine which was taken off the market over ten years ago now because it created problems for some people. And so, that is unfortunate because that is two of the outer surface proteins of the borrelia spirochete and most labs that do western blots testing don’t look at those or don’t report them and so you are missing some really key information. The other challenge is, as you pointed out, the criteria for the CDC positivity is quite high. Meaning 5 IgG and I believe 2 IgM. But there are bands that can be indeterminate meaning they saw something. And if those bands where they saw something were borrelia specific bands, meaning there is nothing else that is known to cause those specific bands to appear on the test; then it is kind of like being a little bit pregnant, right? I mean, you can’t be a little bit pregnant. I think when those tests come back and there are some indication yes it’s not a clear diagnosis but Lyme disease is a clinical diagnosis by a licensed health practitioner and so often times they use symptoms and the test to kind of try to put the puzzle together. I think for co-infection testing, I mentioned Igenex. I think it is good to do their co-infection panel. I think right now for bartonella, there’s a lab called Galaxy Diagnostics which I think is worth exploring. I am not aware of a real specialty lab for babesia at this point. There is Fry Laboratories as well which I think they do some babesia testing. But they do a number of very unique stains, looking at things like biofilms and protozoan organisms which are parasites that also play a role in many people that have these chronic conditions. So I like Igenex, I like Fry Labs, I like Galaxy Diagnostics. There are probably some others. I actually like the borrelia culture test from Advanced Laboratories. I know it has been attacked a bit. I think they have an interesting approach. And part of the challenge was some of this test is if your immune system is suppressed and you are looking at antibody type responses, you may not have a positive test because your immune system is no longer able to respond or because these organisms are so stealthy and sleuthing in the body that they know how to avoid immune system recognition. So sometimes it’s good to do tests that are not only the antibody type testing but also tests that are looking specifically for the organisms. There are things like the Advanced Labs, borrelia culture test or the enriched PCR test that Galaxy does for bartonella, those can be good. I also think that while cd57 is not a good tool for a kind of tracking improvement in my experience and it is not specific to borrelia, there are other things that also cause it to be low.
Justin Marchegiani: Like what?
Scott Forsgren: Some people would suggest that old illness can cause cd57 to go lower. Some people would suggest that being in a significant Herxheimer reaction. Being in a state of inflammation can cause it also to go lower. Some people would suggest that co-infections can also cause cd57 to be lowered.
Justin Marchegiani: Any one specifically like mycoplasma or anything else?
Justin Marchegiani: That is a marker I run a lot with my patients too. I don’t ever use them as a means of diagnosing anything. But it is interesting to run overtime as you treat someone to see it go up. That is an interesting thing to see the immune system improve. Do you ever use that to run when you are treating someone to see if it is moving in the upper direction?
Scott Forsgren: I have not found it to be an incredibly reliable marker and I think overtime some of the people that really were using it a lot have used it less over time. However, there are some practitioners that I know, one in particular that recently was talking about seeing fairly consistent increases in cd57 once she started treating parasites in her patients.
Justin Marchegiani: Yes.
Scott Forsgren: So I think there are some things, but I also know people that feel fairly well that they get to a point that they are largely symptom-free. That they are not on significant protocols anymore. They may still be on some maintenance protocols but they feel like they have gotten their life back and the cd57 may not necessarily represent that or the opposite. People that still feel miserable and are largely bed-ridden and maybe they have a cd57 of 200 hundred and you know, what does that mean?
Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.
Scott Forsgren: I think there’s very little in Lyme disease that is clear and you have to use each of these things as a piece of information. You know that is why I think you are really good. I have watched lots of your videos and things that you put out and you are really putting the pieces together and connecting the dots. That is the kind of mind that it takes to deal with these chronic infections.
Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Scott Forsgren: Right. It is challenging. So that is kind of my thoughts on the conventional side and then you…
Justin Marchegiani: That is why I stopped you right there. Just before we transition off; if anyone has already run they western blot, maybe have their bands in front of them that they can look at. What bands would you say are the most important? Let us say they have an IgG and only 2 bands show up or 3 bands show up and it would not be even classified under an alternative criteria. What bands are the most important for you to say, “Hey, there is a problem here.”?
Scott Forsgren: The ones that I would think about that is fairly clear indicators for borrelia would be 23, 25 which generally is reported as 1. 31, 34, 39 and 83, 93. Now there is some talk that 31 in some cases could have some cross reaction with some viruses in the system as well. So if that is the only one that comes up there is a confirmation test that Igenex offers where they can take it one step further and see was that positive band the result of some viral cross reactivity or not. But generally speaking, those bands are the ones that, you know, if you look at Dr. Rich Horowitz’s book which I really at this point considered to be kind of the bible of Lyme Disease treatment. And I think that anybody that is dealing with Lyme should get his book and really read it and digest it and work with their practitioners. It’s called, “Why Can’t I Get Better? Solving The Mystery of Lyme and Chronic Disease. It’s a fantastic book. He talks about if you have any of these bands that it’s like, bingo! And if you have one of those bands that bingo-ed, you may have Lyme Disease. Those are probably the ones that I would say are worth looking at that are more borrelia specific. There’s another one like band 41, will come up in almost everyone but that is not necessarily Lyme specific. That again can be typed, I think, any organism that has flagella, can be a dental spirochete or a host of other bugs and so 41 is not really a very good one generally to look at.
Justin Marchegiani: I think you have an excellent blog post on this exact topic, don’t you?
Scott Forsgren: I do, yes.
Justin Marchegiani: Great. So definitely check that blog post. It’s one that I actually saved in my library that I refer back to. Very good one.
Scott Forsgren: Cool.
Justin Marchegiani: And then I wanted to touch upon one thing here, for anyone that’s diagnosed, what is the intensity cut-off for you? If anyone is looking at their test and they are seeing the intensity. Are you looking at 60 and above, 80 and above. What is your intensity cut off for flagging that band?
Scott Forsgren: Well, the bands are usually reported at least on the Igenex testing, that the bands are usually reported as indeterminate or they will be reported as 1, 2, 3, or 4 pluses. Even if something is indeterminate for a band, that means they saw something which often times might suggest that the immune system was having a response but it wasn’t able to mount an adequate response. So a lot of times in the western blot, some practitioners will treat for a period of time. Maybe a few weeks, just to start kind of going after some of the organisms and getting the immune system to be a little more responsive and then they might repeat the western blot and in that case, you might have a much more clearly positive test. In cases where it is suspected but western blot is not really clear, doing some treatment and then retesting often times will then show you a different picture because the immune system starts responding to these organisms now that the treatment is killing and as it is kind of moving them through and out of the body. So I think that is something to consider. You asked a little bit about energetic testing as well.
Justin Marchegiani: Yes.
Scott Forsgren: From my perspective, energetic testing, I don’t think of it as a diagnostic tool. I think of it as an informational tool, kind of a decision support system that practitioners can use as additional information that go off and either run some additional conventional test or to do some empirical treatment to see if the person feels better. For me, that really became my biggest guide and I mentioned that the very first person that ever mentioned Lyme to me was someone who did electrodermal screening. So, I then started venturing with Dr. Deitrich Klinghardt up in Seattle who has really been my biggest mentor throughout this journey. I have been following his work for almost 10 years. He was my doctor for many of those years and he has created the system of energetic testing as well called autonomic response testing which is a more manual muscle testing based system. It is a phenomenal system. The information that you get out of working with the practitioner who does that system or a similar system I think is pretty significant.
Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Scott Forsgren: Both in terms of what are the microbial stressors that are potentially impacting someone? What are the toxic stressors? Metals, mycotoxins, those kinds of things. Or what are some supplements or herbs that might better resonate with this person’s system. So, it is not a perfect system. Nothing in Lyme is perfect. My experience has been that using energetic testing and working with skilled practitioners that know how to do energetic testing got me closer to information that really kind of guided me back to a much better state of health. So for me, ultimately the energetic testing became a more useful source of information than some of the conventional testing but then marrying the two together was really..
Justin Marchegiani: Really helped.
Scott Forsgren: That was fantastic. So I do think energetic testing can be great. I think, unfortunately, not every practitioner is equally skilled with it. There are some practitioners that are probably have been doing it for decades and are phenomenal and maybe others that are not quite as skilled at it. Finding the practitioner and if you had the experience of energetic testing that didn’t resonate with you, there is always the possibility that finding another practitioner you might have a very different experience. I also like some of the computer-based tools like there was a tool that is not quite as available anymore but something called the Asyra. There is a tool called the Zyto that is still a tool that lots of practitioners use that can measure somebody’s, it’s through Galvanic Skin Response or electrodermal screening to kind of measure somebody’s response to something that represents a specific stressor. Like the Zyto, there is little kind of an oversized mouse thing that somebody plugs to their computer and then you can do a scan and not only try to identify what are the potential stressors for this person but also what are the things in terms of supplements and other, anything essentially any potential treatment that might be good to consider for a particular person. Dr. Lee Cowden is someone who has been very, very much into using the Zyto and has really talked and lectured about it for many, many years now. I think for me energetic testing was kind of a turning point. It was very, very hopeful. I don’t think I would have gotten to where I am now without it. And while I am generally doing very, very well and I consider myself today to be a well person, you know, there are times that you still feel something is kind of not exactly right and so I tend to now turn more to the energetic testing first to figure out, “Okay, what is it that I need to be doing more of or less of or shifting my diet or whatever. So I feel more empowered. And it think many patients throughout this journey unfortunately you kind of have to become your own advocate and your own kind of guy that align with practitioners that can support you in that kind of journey. But you do have to kind of get out there, educate yourself make some hard choices and changes about your life and lifestyle and levels of stress and exposure to electromagnetic fields and exposure to mold in your environment. I think the mold one, I mean it is such an important thing that many, many people that I have talked with over the years that were not getting well, they had Lyme. They were treating Lyme, treating Lyme, treating Lyme. They start looking into the whole mold world and the work of Richie Shoemaker survivingmold.com and the books Mold Warriors and Surviving Molds. Fantastic discussions about molds and it’s surprising how many people in this country living in an environment every day that is essentially toxic and if they are in one of those environments you can take any supplements, antibiotics, do anything you want but if you are basically in a bubble every day that is not healthy for you. It is going to be very, very difficult to recover. And so I think most people that have these chronic conditions, even if you don’t think there is mold in your house, it’s a very, very straightforward thing to at least to do some initial testing to see is it possible that I do have a mold exposure. We didn’t really talk about it but that was part of my journey as well. It’s around 10 years that I was living in a place when I finally found out about the Lyme. Richie Shoemaker came out with his book Mold Warriors around 2005 I believe, maybe 2006. Dug into that whole issue and sure enough I have been living for 10 years in a place that has all kinds of mold exposures, from leaks in the roof, black molds and all these other things. So getting out of that environment was also a big part of recovering. It’s not just about the Lyme pieces but there are so many other factors that you have to kind of add as many good things and remove as many bad things so that your body can do what its naturally intended to do. The body is a beautiful, remarkable, wonderful machine but we have to sometimes not bog it down with all of these stressors.
Justin Marchegiani: Right. So let me just kind of summarize since were going over a lot of stuff I want to make sure people are not overwhelmed. So we just went over some of the testing, right? We talked about the CDC type of criteria, 5 bands 2 bands 5 for the IgG 2 or more for the IgM. We also talked about some of these alternative labs. We talked about Galaxy, we talked about Fry Labs, we talked about Igenex. These are great labs to have even more sensitive criteria. And then we also went over Dr. Klinghardt’s techniques, autonomic reflex technique, and then Dr. Cowden’s device, the Zyto. So a lot of different cool things that we can use to subtlety pick up these stressors and then we can start applying some therapies to get better. So, on that note, Scott like you mentioned a lot of different supplements. You mentioned antibiotics. So if someone has Lymes of the bat, or Lyme, I always pronounce this plural and I think everyone does that.
Scott Forsgren: They do.
Justin Marchegiani: I remember, every time I would say Lymes, “You mean Lyme?” on my guest live.
Scott Forsgren: At least you caught yourself because you saved yourself from a correction.
Justin Marchegiani: Yes. It’s named from Lyme, Connecticut. We can always get into all that conspiracy theories of it on a later episode. But you talked a lot about these herbs. I know you really have kind of like your pulses on all of the best herbal companies to start treating some of these infections. Can you just go over some of the alternatives? Someone comes back with one of these infections, what would be the first couple of things you would do?
Scott Forsgren: Well, I mean I would try to reach out to someone that can provide some of the energetic testing insight but in terms of companies or products or things that I really found helpful and still kind of using, I mean I am still doing maintenance treatment and I still have things that I want to work on and improve but I am hugely, hugely better. I would say I like a company called Supreme Nutrition which is Michael Lebowitz, a chiropractor behind that. The quality of their products is wonderful. The cost of their products is very reasonable. I think they kind of created a whole energetic testing system where they use those products. And I think that would really be nice if people can access practitioners doing that work. I like a company a lot called Beyond Balance. They have glycerin-based blends that are beautiful that help with the Lyme-related infections, the co-infections, viruses, detoxification, parasites all of those things. Personally, I have used them for probably 7+ years now. And I think that they are very well put together. The naturopath and herbalist that creates them is Susan McCamish, she created them essentially to get her own 10-year-old son out of the wheelchair, who for many years was ill and that they discovered that Lyme was the reason. Today he is perfectly functional and getting ready to go off to college and doing fantastically himself. That kind of came out of her passion for her own child and has really helped a lot of number of people. There is a company that I like called Maypa Herbals and that herbalist has some beautiful products. What is interesting about those products is I don’t often hear people having huge Herxheimer type, die-off responses. But I do often hear that people feel better on them. So there is a formula for Lyme and a formula for bartonella and babesia and viruses and candida-type organisms. I think that company is great. A number of people also like the Byron White Formulas and there are some very powerful medicines as well.
Justin Marchegiani: Byron White, yes.
Scott Forsgren: So those are fantastic. I think it’s important too for people to not focus just on the microbial issue.
Justin Marchegiani: Yes.
Scott Forsgren: When I started out, my way of thinking about things was that infection was number one, toxicity was number two, emotional traumas and conflicts were number three and now almost 20 years later I would completely reverse it and say that emotional traumas and conflict are number one, toxicity is number two, and infections was number three. And it comes back with the infections a lot to the terrain and were completely toxic with heavy metals and mycotoxins and all these other things it’s going to be really hard to get the infectious burden to be reduced. I have an article that Dr. Klinghardt and I wrote a few years ago that is also on my website that talks about what he calls the ”Klinghardt Axiom” which is that you really have to work on the infections, toxins and emotional issues kind of simultaneously in order to maintain the progress that you are making. If you are only focused on one of them that when you take your eyes away from that, it essentially would kind of go back to a state of equilibrium with the others. Things to support detoxification are really, really important as well.
Justin Marchegiani: And what are some things that you recommend for people just to kind of get their emotions and maybe past trauma under control? Do you use things like meditation, mindfulness maybe tapping techniques to help resolve hidden, maybe brains stem kind of, how should I say it, its sympathetic responses where people are just locked in the sympathetic response because of past trauma. What kind things do you recommend that someone could do or techniques that you recommend looking into to help address these unresolved emotional issues?
Scott Forsgren: So, there are some things that I think are great that need to be somewhat practitioner-guided.
Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Scott Forsgren: There is also a system called Family Constellation Therapy that Bert Hellinger created. Dr. Klinghardt does a lot of that work and it’s very interesting. I have done Family Constellation work myself throughout my journey for my own kind of recovery. There are systems like Applied Psycho‑Neurobiology or Psychokinesiology which Dr. Klinghardt has created that kind of deal with the emotional work. EFT I think is a good option for people. Any of the tapping systems can be great. There are a couple of specific practitioners that I often refer people to when they are really kind of dealing with the emotional work. Amy Scher is one who had her own journey with Lyme disease. Did stem cells in India many years ago and recovered. Her symptoms completely resolved except for a specific thing she was dealing with which was endometriosis which got significantly worse. And so, it didn’t make sense that everything else have resolved except for this one issue. So, she spent a number of years looking into all of these different emotional systems and resolving that eventually by doing the emotional work and now has become a beautiful practitioner working with people every day dealing with trying to help them through some of these emotional challenges. I think that there is a system called Evox which is from the same company that does Zyto that Dr. Cowden uses a lot for perception repatterning or re-framing. The way that one works is by taking a voice sample, looking at frequencies that are missing in your voice and then determining what frequencies the body needs to be given in order to kind of shift that emotional block or emotional stressor. I think some of the Bach Flower or Bush Flower remedies can be wonderful. Some of those tools for helping to support the emotional layer.
For people that are really more into the kind of anxiety, what you mentioned, the sympathetic overdrive. There is one that I am just starting to explore, so I do not have a strong opinion about it yet. But I have gotten some very, very good feedback from two other practitioners on this device. It’s something called, Mind Alive, mindalive.com is their website. And it is an audio-visual entrainment with cranial electrical stimulation. So you have the glasses and the headsets and it has a number of different programs to kind of shift the brain into alpha, delta you know, different places of deeper relaxation.
Justin Marchegiani: Great.
Scott Forsgren: And it’s a fairly inexpensive tool like $500 or something. I have used it a couple of times. Just got it a week or so ago and I have used it a couple of times in the last week and found myself kind of conked out snoring on the couch. So it clearly has some usefulness I think for kind of calming. There are other tools that I think too can help get people in that kind of parasympathetic state. I like the Bio-Mat which I know I think we have talked about before as well.
Justin Marchegiani: Yes. The Biomat- that has the amethyst crystals and that has with healing, kind of blood flow properties to it?
Scott Forsgren: Yes, it’s the amethyst crystals the far-infrared heat and the negative ions as well. I do use it a lot. No tool is going to heal everybody’s problem but having some tools that we can kind of bring in and kind of creating a space or a room or something in your home that is kind of a meditation or safe sanctuary kind of place where you can use some of those tools and do some of that work is great.
Justin Marchegiani: Yes.
Scott Forsgren: But I do think that if you didn’t have emotional challenges before you got Lyme most people will have them as a result of the journey of going through Lyme and being told that they are crazy and that their problem is not real and all these other things. And so it is a very difficult journey for some people. Not everyone but I think that the people that have had it for many, many years it does take a lot of work to get well. But I see it fairly regularly that people that are doing the right things do get better. I think there’s a lot of hope. I think there is some much good information that is coming out now. Stephen Buhner in the last year has come out with two new books on co‑infections. His book is phenomenal. So I think there are many, many reasons to be hopeful and I think that Lyme disease is really a messenger for many of us. I think that the process of going through it really is life changing. And it is certainly probably the biggest challenged that I have ever faced in my life and probably the biggest challenge that many people will face. But I also think that it is important to look at some of the beautiful things that come out of it. Some of the friendships that emerged, some of the insights that people get, some of the perspective, some of the way that you have changed your way of look at the world. It kind of forces us to step back and look at what is important and the people in our lives. It is a difficult journey and yet so many good things come out of it as well. I am not sure that I would want to kind of snap my fingers and have it go away because I am a completely different person now coming through the other side and out the other side of Lyme disease.
Justin Marchegiani: Right. And I want to urge anyone that is listening to this that maybe has a chronic health issue or things, they have Lyme or a Lyme co-infection to seek out a practitioner like Scott or like myself. Again, Scott is available in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley area for consultation. But you really want to see someone that can help prioritize a program that can look at your diet, look at stress. Get everything dialed in so you have a foundation to start addressing some of these infections. Because it can be very stressful for the body to treat these infections and if you just go out and buy a bunch of herbs and throw it inside your body thinking that it is going to fix the problem, you may actually even get more sick. So just be mindful that, kind of disclaimer there. Make sure that you are working with someone that can help get the foundation dialed in. Is there anything you want to add to that, Scott?
Scott Forsgren: You know I think if someone is dealing with Lyme reaching out to ILADS, ilads.org and looking for a doctor there. I do some health coaching work but I generally work in conjunction with a medical doctor that is kind of supervising the overall care. I just want to kind of throw that out there that I am not trying to really get too much into the treatment realm. But if someone is working with a doctor and would like some coaching type-work that is something that I could certainly potentially help them as well.
Justin Marchegiani: That is great, Scott. How can our listeners here find more about you? I think you said betterhealthguy.com. You got a really big Facebook following too. Can you give everyone your stats?
Scott Forsgren: Yes, the betterhealthguy.com. So better health g-u-y.com and on Facebook: facebook.com/betterhealthguy. The Facebook page tends to be where I post things that I just kind of see every day, articles and interesting things and then the website. A little bit more blog and article focused, probably not quite as frequently updated but there are lots of stuff there that I have collected over the years and articles I have written and things for different publications that went out that I think will help people as well.
Justin Marchegiani: Yes and I am always referring back to Scott’s site for anything Lyme-related because there are so much information there. And by the way, Scott, how do you keep up with your Facebook page? It’s like every hour there’s a new post up there. How do you do that?
Scott Forsgren: Well it is good that I am good at multitasking.
Justin Marchegiani: I like it. So Scott we are definitely going to have you on for a Part 2 because there is so much to dive deep into. You just wrote an article for the Townsend Newsletter that should be published any day now. By the time anyone listens to this podcast it will probably be out and it’s on bartonella and I imagine if they just Google Townsend Newsletter, Bartonella and your name Scott Forsgren they probably find that article. Great article. And I love how you finished it at the last page or two where you really emphasized looking at the adrenals, and the diet and the stress, which we kind of emphasized in this call. I like that a lot. So take a look at the Bartonella article on the Townsend Newsletter and then I want to end this call here, Scott. Because we are going to have you back for a Part 2 later on this year if you will be open to coming back.
Scott Forsgren: Okay. Sure. Absolutely.
Justin Marchegiani: But I want to end my call with these last two questions that I am trying to ask every practitioner or every interviewee here. If you were stuck on a desert island, Scott and you can only bring one herb or one supplement, what would it be?
Scott Forsgren: I would probably say Takesume Supreme. (Laughs)
Justin Marchegiani: Ah, Takesumi! Supreme Nutrition.
Scott Forsgren: Although with a caveat, that if am on an island that is not highly toxic then I may not need it. But, yes, in terms of being a fantastic toxin binding tool I found that one to be very, very helpful for me and other people as well.
Justin Marchegiani: Takesumi Supreme. And if anyone listening, that is like a bamboo wood extract. That is from Michael Lebowitz’s company. Great product. Awesome. And then if you are recommending three things that anyone could do, do not have Lyme but just in general. Three things that anyone could do to help improve their health. What would those three things be?
Scott Forsgren: I would say reducing stress. It’s a much bigger factor than I think we realize and something that I still have to consciously work on every day to focus on especially when it comes to the effects of adrenals and what on an overall health. So, reducing stress. Improving the diet. So, reducing, not really reducing but eliminating gluten, dairy, reducing sugar, anything that you are known to be allergic to. Reducing pesticide exposure. You know, I think that is really, really important. And then I would probably say making sure that the environment that you are living in is safe for your health and/or recovery from a perspective of either mold exposure or ongoing electromagnetic field exposure which may seem like not such a big deal but when you really look at the impact on electromagnetic fields in cellphones and cordless phones and wireless internets and all these things on health it’s is often a factor that once reduced or removed that people’s health often takes a positive forward step.
Justin Marchegiani: Yes and your story is very similar to Dave Asprey story with the whole mold toxicities. So it is interesting how these common threats happen when these chronic disease situations.
Scott Forsgren: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well thanks so much, Scott. Is there any last bit of information you want to share with the listeners, website, anything else?
Scott Forsgren: Sure. I will mention one foundation. I know a lot of times people that are dealing with Lyme disease, it’s a financial struggle. They spend a lot of money. And so one foundation that I worked with, I am on the board of a foundation called LymeLight Foundation and the website for that is lymelightfoundation.org. The purpose of that foundation is to support treatment for children and young adults 25 and under. So we provide financial assistance for people that cannot otherwise access care. And it has been such a positive experience for me to be involved in seeing the things that happen when people’s lives change and improve because they are able to access care. And so if anybody is either in a position where they have a family member or themselves that are 25 and under and need access to care and financially cannot get that, then looking at lymelightfoundation.org maybe helpful or if this resonates with someone and they are interested in talking to the foundation about providing support or financial support to continue our mission that would be great as well. So that would be a good resource for people, lymelightfoundation.org.
Justin Marchegiani: Awesome. Thanks so much, Scott. We appreciate you coming on the show.
Scott Forsgren: Thank you, Dr. Justin, be well. Thanks.
Justin Marchegiani: Thank you.