Paleo Function, Mycotoxins, and Ketogenic Diet with Michelle Norris – Podcast #179

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Today’s podcast features Michelle Norris, Keith Norris’ better half. In this video, she and Dr. Justin Marchegiani, talk about Paleo functions, Ketogenic diet, Mycotoxins, and how such things are related to sleep, blood sugar levels, weight loss, calories, nutrient density and the salt and sugar combo. Watch and learn more as they talk and share about Michelle’s health challenges and solutions.

Stay tuned for some important scoops regarding this year’s PaleoFX and other important must-see Health Conferences. Keep watching to know more!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

03:11   PaleoFX Encompasses Everything

28:40   Sleep’s Role in Weight Loss

32:34   Michelle’s Keto to Paleo Template Application

39:39   The Myth about Calories and Nutrient Density

45:27   The Body’s Need for Salt-Sugar Combo




Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey, guys! It’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani here in the house. I have MIchelle Norris, Keith Norris’ better half. We had Keith on the podcast last month. So, we’re really excited to get the better half going. How are you doing, Michelle? How’s your day going?

Michelle Norris: I’m doing great. I’m doing wonderful. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome! Well, I know we have the PaleoFX Conference coming back— or coming next month, in April here over in Austin, Texas. Probably one of the highlights of the year. And then, you guys are also doing a little shindig tomorrow at South by Southwest as well. So, let’s chat a little bit about that.

Michelle Norris: Uhm— Yes! So, Keith and I will be speaking at South by Southwest. We have uh— a booth at the Health and Wellness Expo. What’s—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Michelle Norris: …cool is, of course, it’s at Palmer so it’s like home for us. [laughs]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes. [crosstalk] Yes.

Michelle Norris: That’s kind of almost like a little bit of uh— uh— you know— little heart when we walked in today. I’m sure, when start fully moving into our booth today ‘cause it’s like, “Oh, crap. Our event’s like a little over a month away.” So, uhm— yeah. We’re excited. Uhm— We’re excited that South Y is finally doing a Health and Wellness Expo. We kind of feel like they should have probably done this a long time ago. But— you know uh— better late than never, so we’re excited to be speaking tomorrow. So, our talk is gonna be on “Welcome to the Human Zoo” and uh— we’re excited about it. So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great.

Michelle Norris: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Are you gonna be on the— Are you gonna be on one of the— the— the— the big uh— keynote stages?

Michelle Norris: Yes. We’re gonna be on the Wellness stage. So, uhm— I— the— uh— You can come out to the Health and Wellness Expo. It’s free so…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh!

Michelle Norris: …you can come check out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Cool!

Michelle Norris: And, uhm— yeah. And then, our booth, we’re gonna have some— a bunch of giveaways. We have uhm— guiltless uhm— Goodies is gonna be there giving away uhm— their amazing doughnuts. And then we also— We’ll have Chameleon Cold Brew uhm— passing out cold brew. So, yeah. We’re excited.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s awesome. Yeah. I want to really hit everyone else’s listening here and really wants to connect with more like— like-minded people, people that are kind of connected to this community, they— they get nutrition. They get the life— lifestyle stuff. They want to get to people that are in alignment with this type of functional medicine ancestral health kind of thinking. This is a great event to attend. PaleoFX, as well as the— the health event tomorrow at South Y, I think they’re great if you want to meet and connect with more people. So, we’re gonna put links down below so anyone listening to the YouTube video or the podcast. If you want to get connected and— and be a part of it, click the link below and you can sign up. Uh— Phenomenal event. I’ve been there five years in a row and it’s the highlight of my year. So, absolutely love it. Now, in past, we’ve had people like myself, Chris Kresser, Mark Sisson uhm— Cr— uhm— Is it Josh Axe last year, Dr. Perlmutter— so, lots of people that are bringing lots of awesome information. I’m just curious. Since you’ve been doing this what— eight years now? Is it eight?

Michelle Norris: It’s our seventh year.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Seventh year, wow. So, what’s some of the information, maybe your top three things that have really resonated with you as an— you know— as an individual? What are things that you’ve learned that have made a difference, and that you’ve applied to your own personal health?

Michelle Norris: Oh, my gosh! [sigh] Man, that list…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know it’s a big question. I know.

Michelle Norris: …long. Uhm— So many things. Uhm— Probably one of the things that we are most proud of at bringing to PaleoFX is that it’s not just nutrition. It’s not just about the diet. It’s not just about fitness. It’s not. It encompasses everything. So, it ain’t about uhm— coming— you know— happiness, mindfulness, uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: It’s about how— you know— entrepreneurship, uhm— sustainability. You name it. We kind of run the gamut. Spirituality, uhm— We do a lot with plant medicines, and which, by the way— This is just for you. A total scoop, because it’s not been announced yet. But…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Whoah!

Michelle Norris: Dennis McKenna will be at Hill FX this year, and we’re super excited about this. Uhm— a lot of people know who Dennis is. He— His brother Terrence is a big activist in the movement for Psychedelics and for—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes! I’ve heard of him.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. And Dennis is going to be— And Dennis is uh— a big activist in his own right. He’ll be there. So, I think a lot of the things that I’ve learned is like things like that. The— The— Your— Your health and wellness is incumbent on a lot of different things. It’s— It’s incumbent on you uhm— Yes, being fit. Yes, putting the right nutrients in your body. Uhm— But it’s also about the right thoughts. It’s about having the right people in your life. Uhm— It’s about removing all the toxins from your life. Not just the toxins that we consume, but the to—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Michelle Norris: …that are on our bodies when we put chemicals on our bodies, because a lot of times, esp— especially women. We use makeup and everything and we aren’t…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: We aren’t cognizant of what’s in our makeup. And so, there’s this, then there’s also— you know— soaps and— you know— med— cleaning supplies in the house. Uhm— And then, there’s toxic thoughts and toxic people. And so, those are— That’s probably one of the biggest things that I’ve really learned over the last— you know— seven years, is how it’s about— you know— when you go back to a more simple life and you— you really got the things out that are not serving you or uhm— helping you become a better person or become healthier. So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love that.

Michelle Norris: That’s probably one of the biggest things that I’ve learned. And then— Oh, gosh! You know— All kinds of biohacking tricks, [laugh] and— and uh— uhm— uh— I mean, that’s probably one of the things, is really understanding how much you can actually uhm— Not just advocate for yourself but also be your own uhm— you know— be your own guinea pig.N equals one— I mean like go into the experimentation phase and with uhm— just being excited and being uhm— curious. And so uhm— that’s probably— Another one is realizing that how much effect I can have on my own health, my weight, my— all of those things if I am— you know— if I’m using cool little biohacks to— you know— tap in and do those kind of things. So, learned a lot over particularly the last two and a half years. And then, the third thing, [long pause] I think one of the— the— the big things, too, is understanding how much we are uh— a tribe. Like we need— we need people. We need to have— we need to have people around us that help us uhm— you know— it’s that rising tide raises all ships.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: And I think when you get into a community in a tribe situation, particularly at halo effects. I— It’s— There’s not anything that’s like that. And so, uhm— I think that’s probably one of the other cool things that I’ve learned uhm— from— from being part of PaleoFX.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great. Yeah. Everytime I go there, it’s like drinking out of a firehose. So I always try to like keep a little notebook and just make a note of maybe the top one or two things, because if you get so many then you don’t want to get overwhelmed where you don’t do anything. So, you got to have to like consolidate it down. Alright, what— what are the big one or two? And then, after a couple of years, you got a whole bunch of things that you’ve applied, right?

Michelle Norris: Oh, yeah. I completely agree with that. Uhm— I— My— my uhm— attitude going into any conference because— you know— we attend other conferences and everything, is to uhm— gleam three takeaways, uhm— and then, really work individually on those takeaways in integration. Because this is the thing. We go to conferences, and yeah, that vibe and that energy and that excitement is there and were all inspired and we’re gonna change our life. And we’re gonna do this. We’re gonna do that. And you’re right. You leave and you have so many things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: Oh, that’s awesome. But it’s really— you know— Narrow it down to the top three and really work on integrating those things. The thing is that it doesn’t mean don’t write down the other things.Write them all down, but really go—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: —mindful about choosing three things that you’re gonna take that— that  really were the top three things that resonated with you, and work on those. And then— then move on when you got those integrated. But, I totally agree. It— It is. It’s like drinking from a firehose and if you— if you just leave and you’re in this really big bubble of being so inspired and so motivated and everything, and you leave and you feel like, “Okay. I don’t even know where to start.” That’s where you start— those three things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love that. Really good. And, I want to get your story ‘cause I know right now you had a couple health challenges in the last year, too, that I want to chat about ‘cause I think a lot of people can empathize with that and learn from it. But, you came into this world as being a chef, right? You were a chef, and then you plugged into this community. Is that how you started?

Michelle Norris: Yes. [crosstalk] So, yes. Who’s— uhm— My specialty as a chef was Italian.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, awesome.

Michelle Norris: [laugh] I made my own…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [laugh]

Michelle Norris: …dough in my own pasta. And uhm— you know— I didn’t come into Paleo uhm— you know— happy and curious and excited and adventurous. I came into it kicking and screaming. And so, uhm— it wa— I was pissed. I was really pissed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [laugh]

Michelle Norris: It was like, “Okay. I have to give up these foods that I absolutely love just so I can be healthy, and I was kind of in a state of die— denial and I went through this process of thinking to myself, uhm— “I’m gonna figure it out, and one day, I’m gonna be able to put these foods back into my diet and I’m gonna be fine.” And, what’s so hilarious is uhm— I was a food writer for several other fo— uh— websites. I didn’t have my own blog at the time, but I wrote I— d— develop recipes. All of them were SAD diet recipes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Michelle Norris: I’m really kin— of that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [laugh]

Michelle Norris: But anyway, uhm— So, what’s funny is when I went Paleo, I didn’t change that. I kept writing  and developing these recipes, and uhm— And it was— It took me a little while. What happened is, literally, in three weeks of being Paleo, everything that I have wrong with me had stopped. The inflammation had just died. And so, I didn’t have all that inflammation happening. So, I had Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I have Fibromyalgia. I have been diagnosed with Early Onset Rheumatoid Arthritis. I had uhm— IDS. UHm— My— I had just all kinds of cra— And of course, I’ve had migraines since I was 17. And so, uhm— in three weeks, almost everything was gone. The migraines were not gone uhm— because I was still taking medications. And—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: —tions ended up being—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Imitrex or something like that?

Michelle Norris: Yeah. I was taking uhm— Actually, I was taking Relpax and I was getting Botox injections…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, wow.

Michelle Norris: …[inaudible] and I was taking three different medications. So, I would take— One medication was to a daily, that was to keep them from coming, which was Topamax, which is an anti—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: —alation. And then a muscle relaxer which is Cyclobenzaprine or Flexeril— It’s a muscle relaxer. So, it’s taking those two for prevent— And then, I was given Midrins. So if a headache started coming on, I would take Midrin to try to get rid of it. And then, if a cold-blood migraine happened, I would take re— Relpax, or I would take uhm— Axert. Okay. So, there’s the whole cocktail there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow!

Michelle Norris: You can’t take Relpax and Axert together. You have to be separated by at least 72 to— to— hours or more…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: … because of Serotonin uhm— Syndrome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Michelle Norris: And so, uhm— Anyway, it just— What was happening now was I was just rebounding. All my headaches were rebounding. What have you— So I uhm— I go into Paleo, and about three weeks, everything was gone. All the inflammation uhm— Everytime I ate, I was literally, physically ill. I would— My stomach would cramp. I would just be really in bad pain. My knee was swollen all the time. My back hurts uhm— just all of these stuff. What was interesting um— I actually— Let me back that up for a second. My back— I didn’t realize my back hurt.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm—

Michelle Norris: —want to be so normal, but I was numb to it. But when it stopped hurting is when I noticed, and I was like, “Oh. Crap. I had a back pain and I don’t have that anymore. It was so strange. And so— Anyway, about six weeks in the Paleo, our son played baseball and we had not seen the t— We hadn’t seen any of the parents of the team for probably 12 weeks. But, I had been paying them about six weeks. We showed up at the game, and all parents were like, “Oh my God! You look amazing! You’ve lost so much weight. You— Your— You look so healthy. Your skin’s glowing. Your hair looks great.” They were just like going on and on and on. And they were like, “What are you doing?” And, of course, Keith claimed that I had this amazing trainer.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhuh—

Michelle Norris: And which wasn’t true. I wasn’t even training, which was kind of funny. Uhm— But what was weird is— you know— when you’re on a SAD diet. Women yo-yo  all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: Scroll up and down, so you can have any range of sizes in your closet and it’s a normal thing. So, you don’t even notice when you’re losing weight or when you’re doing— So you’re just going back into— This is just the normal thing you do. You just do this yo-yo thing. Well, what was interesting is that was like the day the light bulb went off. And I was like— They were like, “So what are you doing then?” I was like, “I was just doing Paleo.” And uhm— It was really interesting. That was when I really realized, “Oh my God! This is— This information can help people, like this could be a— This could be so helpful to people.” Uhm— Robb had not yet had written his book yet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Robb Wolf.   

Michelle Norris: He hadn’t written the book yet, but he was—That’s how we ever found out about Paleo was through Robb. And we uhm— Keith had developed a relationship with him and Art DeVany, and they we’re telling him about this. So, he tried it, and he was Paleo for a year before I tried it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And this was back in 2010?

Michelle Norris: No. This is back in 2005.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Whoah!

Michelle Norris: Yeah, 2005. 2000— He went Paleo in 2004. I went Paleo in 2005. And so— [clears throat] Yeah. It was— It’s been a long time. And so— What’s interesting is uhm— we [laugh] We uhm— I don’t know. When— When that happened that’s when I stopped writing for the other blogs and I did my own website. And so— uhm— Yeah. Like I said, I came into this kicking and screaming and completely in denial. But, uhm— Keith says the day that I figured that out when we went to that game was the day a Paleo Evangelist was born. [laugh]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great. And for anyone listening to this, and— you know— when you hear the word Paleo, what we’re trying to talk about is kind of ancestral way of eating, typically, cutting out inflammatory foods, cutting out foods that are high in toxins and try to really increase nutrient density, so, typically, healthy meats, lots of good veggies— you know— the— the— the right amount of fruits and starch and carbs for you and— You know— I— I tend to use the term Paleo template because we can really adjust in the macronutrients. We can go more Ketogenic. We can be more of a zone. So we have that flexibility within that Paleo template. Does that makes sense to you too? Does that makes sense to you too? We on the same page with that?

Michelle Norris: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I totally agree with that because uh— in the end of the day, there’s not one Paleo diet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: There’s— Like you said, there’s this template, and you start there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: And then [inaudible] and you figure out and you do these little hacks for what works for you. So, I can tell you Keith and I cannot eat all the same stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Michelle Norris: I can’t eat the amount of carbs that Keith eats uhm— with regard to rice. I can’t even eat rice. It uhm— uh— my blood sugar just spikes. Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: But— you know— with regard to fries or potatoes, or— you know— any of that kind of stuff, there are things I can eat that he can’t so, he’s— has issues with night shades. I don’t love tomatoes, love all that kind of stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: And I tend and I don’t have any issue with it so uhm— So, there are things like the— you know— we have to tweak for ourselves, even in the same household that even when we start from the same template— you know— there are times where we don’t have the same meals. Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, being an Italian chef, how did you— how did you come in there? What were your best pasta substitute? Were you doing anything like MIracle noodles, where like you’re doing kind of glucomannan type of uhm— uhm— pasta? What are your best subs there?

Michelle Norris: Okay. So, initially, uh— my subs were rice noodles.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. Until I figured it out that I had a problem with rice. Uhm— Rice noodles and Zucchini noodles. I actually prefer the Zucchini noodles to a regular pasta because it holds uhm— It’s just much— It’s much more firm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: It holds your sauce really well, uhm— and the thing is that it’s just so much more nutrient dense, and I think it tastes better, which—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great.

Michelle Norris: And of course— you know— you don’t get any of the food coma afterwards either, ‘cause you know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. You’ll get that blood sugar dip. Yeah. I did— I did Miracle— I mean, I did uhm— Zucchini noodles this week. Have you tried Miracle noodles before?

Michelle Norris: Yes, I have. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What’s your take on those?

Michelle Norris: Uhm— They act— they’re good. I just— uhm— I just prefer the zoodles. I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: I’m just one of those that’s Bang for Your Buck. You know— If it’s a little bit more nutrient dense, that’s the way I want to go. So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I agree. The nutrient density is by far better. That’s great.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. And then, what her thing is to is uh— my— my— My thought process around that too is I— I would— would bet— I haven’t tried it. So, I’m not sure about this, but I would bet that I would— that those probably spiked my blood sugar a little bit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: And I— I have to be really mindful of that, especially right now after the health stuff that I’ve been through. So, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And let’s talk about that. I know you had a beautiful Central— a beautiful house in Central Austin. You found out there were some mold there in the last few years. So, what’s kind of been that journey? What were the big symptoms that you were noticing? Did you do any testing or was it just like, “Oh my gosh! There’s some mold. That explains it.” And then you got out of there and then you just felt better. How did you know? And then, were there any testing involved for you?

Michelle Norris: Yeah. Okay. So, uhm— We moved into that house in May 2000— uhm— 15.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: Yeah. Yeah. May of 2015. Uhm— We were— Our—  We own a house in Kyle and we rested that house out, then we moved into the house in Austin ‘cause we were just in Austin everyday. It’s just— the commute didn’t makes sense for us ‘cause—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Michelle Norris: —hours. It was crazy. So, we uhm— moved into this house, and we moved in on May the 8th. And that was literally, uhm— So, three weeks before that, we were at a conference. Then, we were— The following weekend, we were at PaleoFX. Then, the following weekend, we were at a conference up in New York, and then, we came back home that weekend before we moved. And moved on the— that Thursday. So, you can imagine that I’m thinking right now I’m really seriously exhausted ‘cause I’ve gone through PaleoFX. Got out through all these stuff. So, uhm— we get into the house. Then, about ten days after we moved in, we went on a ten-day cruise. Then, we came home so that puts us towards the end of May. BY June the 10th, I couldn’t get out of bed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh my gosh!

Michelle Norris: I was like, “What is happening to me?” And I just saw it that I was exhausted from all of that. That’s what I initially thought. But then, things just started not adding up. I just was like,”Okay.” I was sleeping. I was sleeping a lot.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: And I was just like, “Okay. I should be getting better. I should be feeling a lot better.” I wasn’t so I started really just doing some research, and immediately came to the idea that the— there is mold. Well, when— So we— We had a uhm— landlord. So we went to him. He uhm— said, “Absolutely not. There was no mold in the house.” But I was like— It’s I don’t know what this is. This is crazy. And let me go back just a little bit.  

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: And Mark— I went to— I went in and had all my blood work done. And they had confirmed that I had— was in meno— menopause.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: And uhm— They said, uhm— whatever you’re doing now— I was doing ID nutrition and I was also doing uhm— Paleo. They were like,”Whatever you’re doing, keep doing it, because your— your uhm— looks great. Your hormones looked really good. We don’t need to give you any hormones.” Uhm— Anyway, Sorry. I have dogs here. I apologize.  

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s all good.

Michelle Norris: So, they were like, you don’t need any hormones. So, June 10th, I can’t get up bed. I start  doing all these research. And then I thought, “Oh. Crap!” Maybe— maybe it’s my hormones. So, I go in. I have this literally zero hormones. None. So, they put me on hormones. I start getting a little bit better but not quite that good. And so, uhm— I’m just like trying to figure out what’s going one. And then, October 15th through November [dog barking] 8th, I gained 28 pounds.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Whoah!

Michelle Norris: In less than one month, I gained 28 pounds. And so, uhm— I was like, “Okay. What’s going on?” Well, a friend of ours who happens to be a hormone specialist was in town. We were talking to her. I was asking her about it. She says, uhm— “What kind of hormones are you taking?” And I told her I was taking a combined Estrogen and Testosterone cream, and a…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh—

Michelle Norris: …progesterone pill. And she said, “You—” She was— I— “Just from what you’re telling me…” She goes I’m betting that you’re one of that small minority of women that cannot take [inaudible] This is new uhm— uh— uhm— uh— evidence that’s coming out that start— just starting to uhm— come out that you’re one of those minute uhm— women that— I mean, minute number of women that cannot have their Estrogen and their Testosterone together. They need to be separated by 12 hours.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: I was like, “Okay. Well then.” That was a battle with my doctor. Like  it took me two month— two and a half months to get him to—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: To get it separated.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. And then, finally, I was just like, “Look. I’m not— I’m not gonna keep doing it so you need to— I— And I need the hormones soon.” They’re gonna have to do it my way. And so— Finally, he gave in. Well, I dropped all the weight like pretty quickly. But, what I realized later was I was literally spending everyday at the office not at the house.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mmm—

Michelle Norris: Like literally, if I had to work, I had to pull my computer into bed. It was that bad. And so, when I started, uhm— I started working at the office, I was at the office from like 8:00 in the morning until 11:30 at night. So— I was spending almost all day out of the house and only a few hours in the house so I believe that’s why I was able to drop the weight. And so, uhm— I dropped the— I think it really didn’t have a lot to do with the— It may had something to do with the hormones being together, but I think ultimately. Plus, I was out of the house. And uhm— So I would— did it really pretty good. I was okay. But then, again, after pill effects was over and I went back to being in the house again, it all came right back and I g— I went back and gained another 27 pounds.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Michelle Norris: And, you know, being Paleo, I had only uhm— fluctuated weight up and down four pounds over 14 yea— uh— I guess it’s about 14 years, right? And so, I was just like, “What in the world, man?” This doesn’t make any sense. So, uhm— Then I started really doing a lot of research and— and realize, “Okay.I’ve got an issue.” So, I went in and I was tested. I have high mycotoxin count, high uhm— at all— My heavy metals were super high. All—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Do you remember what labs it is for the mycotoxins? Was that the real-time labs one?

Michelle Norris: Honestly, I don’t.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Michelle Norris: I just know that it was a battle to get my doctor to do it. And— But I just kept telling them, “Look I just feel like I have a mold exposure. Can you please do the test. I ended up also doing the nose. The— The uhm— MARCoNS Test in—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Michelle Norris: Anyway. Did the MARCoNS and uhm— that was off the charts, and so— Anyway, new really pretty quickly, “Okay. I’ve got a mold exposure.” So we got Airocides in our house because we were leased.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: We couldn’t leave. And so, we were trying to figure out what we’re gonna do. And uhm— It’s just— what was interesting is I started a protocol with Ryan Preisinger.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: I don’t know. And you got to meet Ryan. And so, Ryan started me on this protocol. I went— had all the Mercury removed from my mouth, did a chelation and then went back after…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: …after that— that on like 21 days later and had no heavy metals in my body, which was awesome. ‘Cause normally that’s a long process that doesn’t have…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: [crosstalk] —cally, usually. But because I was able to remove the heavy metals. The other thing that was interesting too is, at that time, I also stopped taking all of my migraine medications, and it was a painful process, like it was…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Michelle Norris: …super painful.But what I did is I started using essential oils. So anytime I would start getting a headache, I would put essential oils on my neck and rub it [crosstalk] throughout my scalp. Hey, sorry. We’ve got a friend.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [laughs]

Michelle Norris: Uhm— This is Tosca. She likes to be seen. For some reasons she jumps up almost every time I’m on a live or something.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It— It is my dog right here. Here name’s Butter.

Michelle Norris: Oh! It’s Butter. This is Tosca.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Butter.Nice. Very cute.

Michelle Norris: She eats butter every morning. That’s my— He has butter— He has a— She’s got a— and uhm— some type of autoimmune thing that we can’t get rid of, and so she’s on the medication. She eats butter every morning.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh. That’s good. And uh— You feeding him like uh— a Paleo kind of uhm— dog food too?

Michelle Norris: Oh, yeah. Yeah. All of the dogs are Paleo.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Raw?

Michelle Norris: Only Paleo. Yeah. Uhm— But anyway, I uhm— So, what was interesting is after uhm— Tsp— Going through that process, I started doing the essential oils and started using uh— ice packs more. I use ice packs before, but I started really using ice packs. An ice pack around the shoulders and an ice pack around the forehead. Uhm— And I started realizing that I wasn’t getting the headaches as much after a couple of weeks. It was a process of getting that— all of that out of my system. But, I was like, “Oh my God! I was finally like clear and not having—” Hey I woke up with a headache almost every single morning. Like—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That makes sense too, because I— I worked with lots of menopausal females and the big issue is as you start transitioning in the menopause, you start leaning on your adrenal glands more to help pick up the hormonal slack. Because the ovaries now aren’t coming to the table with the hormones that used to be there when your cycling. So, the problem is your adrenals are also your strength-handling glands. So now, you’re— now you’re beating them up with stress and then now you’re also looking for them to come and produce extra hormones so you can feel good and— and feel balanced and recover from all these different stressors. So then, now you get this back up generator essentially that you’ve— you’ve run dry. And then now the power’s out. Now you need it to kind of get the hormones going. So, that makes sense. And then of course, you plug in these extra stressor of the mold and then all these conferences back to back to back. That totally makes sense.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. So we— I don’t know. So, it’s been really long so we figured out that what happened is that my uhm— the— the Severe Mold Exposure, not only was at the wrong time because I was in menopause, but it also uhm— kicked up uh— Epstein-Barr. [crosstalk] So, I had—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, God.

Michelle Norris: So, then I started a protocol for getting rid of the Epstein-Barr on the last bit of that protocol right now. But the other part of this too is that [clears throat] as part of the Keto diet. And uhm— I started the Keto diet, uhm— in December— I think it— Yeah, December. And so far, I’ve been able to lose 15 of the 27 pounds so, I still have 12 to go. But I feel a lot better. And what’s been interesting is it’s been kind of like a game I’m figuring out on the Keto diet. When— What is it that really taps in and works for me on the weight loss? With Keto is I finally figure it out is— I have to do really, really low carbs, uh— a lot more fat, and a moderate amount of protein…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: UHmhm—

Michelle Norris: …and uhm— a lot of sleep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mmm—

Michelle Norris: I mean, that’s the number one pain women go to— sleep. If you want to lose weight, go to sleep ‘cause I noticed that when my sleep is better and I use sleep app and everything, uhm— and I have uh— I’ve got a bit of leaf— uh— a leaf that tracks my sleep…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: …need to get the aura ring. And uhm— So, I’m just gonna tell you. You want to lose weight, go to sleep. I mean, that’s the best thing. I mean, what I do is every five days, I cycle carbs in and I have to keep my fat low that day and then I cycle some carbs in on that day like sweet potatoes, or if that’s what I want to do. Some chocolate treats, or something like that. That’s when I’ll do it. Or some kind of— maybe I want Torquittas or whatever, but I have to really watch that. And uhm— anyway— And then, I will like lose weight especially if I go— go to sleep. The other thing is too is that I sauna every— almost every single night. I do it—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, cool.

Michelle Norris: So, uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Do you sauna in your house? What kind do you have?

Michelle Norris: I have a Sunlight—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, cool.

Michelle Norris: So— I’d had the Su— this other sauna thing that—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: _______[29:38]

Michelle Norris: Uh— No. Uhm— I wish. I wish I would have that but uh— no. I had this other one that I got off the Amazon or whatever, but I was like desperate to get something…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: …and— Anyway, and it way helpful in helping get rid of toxins, but it was— it’s not the same as the infrared. And there’s— I can— There’s uh— a marked difference in the infrared versus the hot— the heat sauna.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Michelle Norris: Uh— hot sauna. Uhm— Marked difference, uhm— for one thing, in my sleep and uhm— just in my skin too. And just knowing that I’m getting rid of toxins, I don’t have [inaudible] those—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s interesting that you talked about the sleep because there’s a lot of research showing that if you cut down your sleep, it actually can make you pretty diabetic, meaning it’s really increasing your blood sugar levels. So, a lot of people, especially in like the Paleo Natural Health community, they’re like, “Oh! Let’s cut our carbs. Let’s increase our fat. Let’s— Let’s lower our blood sugar via our diet and maybe exercise too. But people forget that you can throw your blood sugar off with poor sleep. So, that makes sense. Maybe why that sleep is making a huge difference. Also, it’s— you know— repairing your body, and all that too, with all those good anabolic hormones as well.

Michelle Norris: Oh, yeah. And I can’t agree with you more. So, I test my ketones.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: I test my blood sugar in every uh— not every morning but pretty uh— every couple of days. And last night, I uhm— for some reason did not sleep well. Uhm— uh— I think we just got a lot going on and I— my brain could not shut down no matter what I seem to do, and I don’t meditate before I go to sleep. And uhm— it was interesting. Uhm— last night I s— I ended up only sleeping about four and a half hours and I woke up, my blood sugar was 102.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mmm—

Michelle Norris: And I’m fully, fully, fully Keto yesterday, so that is a definitive uhm— I completely agree with you there. Your sleep is a big indicator of whether or not you’re gonna be able to help control your blood sugar and keep that down. But I, like, had four and a half of sleep last night and my blood sugar was 102. And I had— Oh— exactly 12.4 carbs yesterday. So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow!

Michelle Norris: Uhm— And my—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How are you testing your ketones? Are you doing the— the new keto-mojo. Are you doing the Abbott Precision Xtra one?

Michelle Norris: I’m doing the Precision Xtra.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. That’s what I have too. I got mine right here. I test a couple of times [crosstalk] a day.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. Mine’s [crosstalk] right— right there. Anyway—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s cool.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. So, I do that, and I will test my— my ketones and then my blood sugar. And that was— The other thing is, it knocked me out of Ketosis.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: I went— this weird— I was like, “Wait. How? Okay.” And then— Then, I realized, “Okay. It has to do with— It had to do with my sleep.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: So, when I sleep good, I wake up, my blood sugar’s pretty— pretty even around 82 to 85. And uhm— And my— I usually have— My ketones are at a 0.4 to 0.5, around there. And uh— I don’t know. So, yeah. Sleep— Sleep is the big one, ladies. Then—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. [crosstalk] And I’m just curious, how are you applying your Keto to Paleo template. I know you kind of cycle up and down. What does that look like for the listeners? What’s a breakfast, lunch and dinner? And then, had you applied any intermittent fasting? And then, what’s your frequency for cycling those carbs in?

Michelle Norris: Yes. So, I do intermittent fast. Uhm— I am on a six-hour w— eating window.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: Just go uhm— Right now, I’m in fast. Uhm— I do uh— most of the time in the morning, if I’m gonna do anything, I will uhm— I’ll do a uh— a— like a uhm— tsp— Sorry. I ha a dog. Come up and—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [laugh]

Michelle Norris: And we have four, so I apologize, [crosstalk] the barking and stuff. But uhm— So, I’ll do like a bulletproof type uhm— Chai.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: I don’t do uhm— I’m not— I don’t do coffee.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: I’ve decaffeinated for years, but I love decaffeinated coffee. But I find that I have to have cream with my coffee, and that’s just too many carbs for me. So, I do some— a little bit of butter and some MCT oil and some—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Good.

Michelle Norris: …some Chai and I actually really like that. And uhm— So, I— That’s usually what I do in the mornings if I’m gonna do anything. Uhm— I will usually have for lunch— I start eating right around 12:30-1:00 o’clock somewhere around there. And uhm— And I will have maybe a couple of eggs, a couple of slices of bacon and an avocado. And then, in the evening, I uhm— I have to finish eating by 6:30 uhm— and I, generally, will have some kind of uhm— complex carb like — you know— I’ll have cauliflower, broccoli or I’ll have some Kale or uhm— uh— little salad in about four or five ounces of protein. And that’s— that’s it. And then, if I want some— If I need a little extra fat, I have these little fat bombs that have no carb— no carbs in them. So, it’s uh— just kicked out butter. [dog barks] And uhm— Sorry. I’ll— Uh— So, a little bit of Cacao butter and a little bit of uh— _____[34:45]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh! That’s great.

Michelle Norris: Anyway, and I’m gonna hurt some dogs. I’m sorry, doll.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [laugh] It’s okay. No worries. No biggie.

Michelle Norris: They’re getting all excited about something. Don’t want to get Butter stirred up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know, right? Yeah. She’s okay. I got— I got one little earpiece here [crosstalk] so she’s good.

Michelle Norris: So, she can’t hear it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: She can’t hear. But, that’s great. So, in general, that’s good on the diet stuff. So, it sounds like your macros— your— Sounds like you’re sitting maybe around a 15 percent protein, 60 or 70 percent fat, and maybe a 10 percent carbish? Is that all right?

Michelle Norris: Yeah. [crosstalk] Yeah. So, it’s supposed to be less than 25 uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Protein?

Michelle Norris: Twenty five uhm— no. Less than 25 carbs a day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Michelle Norris: Right just under a hundred of fat, and I’m about 80 uh— protein. I can tell you I never hit it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Michelle Norris: I hit fat every time, but I can’t hit that protein and I found that actually works for me. I’m fine. I feel good and I feel I’m starting to get my energy back, and feeling— and I’m losing weight. And uhm— [pause] Yeah. I just. I found that this is— I’ve pretty much got it dialed in now. What I need—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s good. A— And you feel like even though you’re doing the 6-hour window IF, you’re okay with doing the— the fat and you’re Chai tea in the morning. So, like, you wouldn’t count that as part of your feeding window in the morning when you have that.

Michelle Norris: No. No. When I do have it, uhm— like I’m having it today, and it actually I just started uhm— drinking it at about uhm— 11:15? Right— right after you and I got, I have made it and then set it down…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Michelle Norris: …tape. So, 11:15. So, then, I’ll pull my window down a little bit and eat— uh— make sure I’m done eating probably like by 6:00. So, my feeding window’s supposed to be six to six and a half hours. Originally, uhm— Ryan wanted it— wanted me to be in a 9-hour and then to shift to the 6½  hours over the— sorry— six months. But I found I was automatically doing it, like I was where I was at. Uh— So, I was like, “Okay. I don’t have to worry about it. I’m just gonna stay there. So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And you noticed the big difference going from like six to like eight, like was there a big shift for you? Or—

Michelle Norris: Uhm— No, ‘cause I just automatically just did it. I d—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It all fit to the six.

Michelle Norris: —just wor— It worked out that way, and what’s interesting is uhm— I didn’t uh— I didn’t know how that was gonna effect. But I realized that I feel more even keel when I don’t— when I don’t have a bigger window to eat it and that I’m not eating more. ‘Cause in— you know— you didn’t matter what you’re eating. You’re gonna— You’re gonna have an Insulin response. And so— uhm— keeping from having multiple Insulin response. I tried to only have my Insulin response happen a couple of times a day at the most. So, I try not to— if— If I’m gonna eat everything I’m gonna eat in that short period of time so that I get the one Insulin response and that’s it. And then, another Insulin response and that’s it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, the biggest thing I see a lot of people make, and I’m curious to get your take on it to see if you’re doing it or not, is if you shorten this window— let’s say, this is your six-hour eating window, is you have to make sure you get all your calories and nutrients in this window. So, let’s say, you need 2,000 calories for a round number, but because that feeding window is compressed, maybe you’re only getting 1,500 so you have a 500 calorie-nutrient deficit, so to speak. So, I’m just curious, are you getting enough of calories in that window for you, too?

Michelle Norris: I— [laugh] I’m— I’m actually hitting over the calories that I’m really allotted. Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How many do you need? Let— Maybe 1,600? 1,800?

Michelle Norris: Thirteen. Thir—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay. So your— [crosstalk] thirteen.

Michelle Norris: That’s like uh— where my— right now, where my BMI is and where my— well, actually, I know what my— It’s— I have a DEXA. SO, uhm— But, i— where I’m at, it needs to be thirteen hun— It’s 1,308. It’s actually what my calories intake is supposed to be a day. And, I can tell you, I hit it easy. I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: ANd with that amount, you feel satiated, too. You’re not— You don’t still [crosstalk] feel hungry again.

Michelle Norris: I’ll never feel hungry. I feel— I— I feel good. I don’t feel uhm— And like I said, I do— if I feel like, “Okay. I need a little bit of a fat bomb thing.” I do that uhm— in— But I try to do that while I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: …while having—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, we know.

Michelle Norris: Right? Do it right with my dinner so that I only still have that one Insulin response.This is what…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool.

Michelle Norris: …into me. You know there’s been all of the— the information out there. “Oh. You should have six meals a day.” “Oh. You got your Insulin response thing…”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: “…all— all day long.” I mean, like, you’re never gonna lose weight doing that. You’re also putting a big stress on. I mean, that’s one of the things that, I think a lot of people don’t understand is when you are spiking an Insulin response, you’re putting stress on your body. And the thing is, is that yes, in some cases, it’s a good stress, but when you’re doing it that often where you’re eating six small meals a day, you’re getting a lot more work out of your— you know— You’re making your pancreas work a whole lot more than it should be.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, absolutely. I’m getting a lot of questions in from listeners about calories and such. And, just for everyone listening, when I’m talking about calories, when we’re talking about whole food, nutrient-dense foods, calories are gonna have nutrition attached to them when we’re talking about real food. The difference is in a world we live, and there’s a lot of foods that are very high in calories that have no nutrition attached to them. So, it— We— We can’t compare apples to oranges there. But, when we talk about calories, is it an easy way to make sure that you’re getting enough nutrition ‘cause I know Michelle’s eating nutrient-dense whole foods. So, every calorie is packed with nutrition. Would you agree, Michelle?

Michelle Norris: Yeah. I totally agree. So— you know— like you said, there’s a lot of uhm— foods that have high calories but they’re zero nutrient density, like Doritos, or Cheetos, or Fritos…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm—

Michelle Norris: …or any other things. Uh— Why do all of those, say, have -tos at the end of them? I— I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know. That’s weird. [laugh]

Michelle Norris: But it’s— This is the thing. Those are super high— uhm— high fat, high sugar, high uhm— carbohydrate— all of those things, but the calories d— are hav— there’s no— there’s nothing in it that’s nutrient-dense whatsoever.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And Keith— I do know Keith has talked to me about this last time, where they were putting some chemical in the Dorito, and then that was causing you to crave more sugar afterwards.

Michelle Norris: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I forget what he was. Go ahead. What was that?

Michelle Norris: That’s actually part of our talk tomorrow, is atomic Doritos. So, what you do is you get a little flavor packet with your Doritos and they’re Nacho cheese Doritos, and you put the flavor packet into the bag. You shake it. Whatever. Well, the distribution is not gonna be even, more likely, unless you just like you’re gonna beat your Doritos up and they’re gonna be all particles. So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: And it happened, is that you have uhm— a little bit of atomic on— uh— on every— a little bit on— on like more pops of it, throughout the back. And what happens is that we spiked our Dopamine response when we are anticipating an event.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Michelle Norris: So, when we’re sitting there, eating the Doritos, this Dorito may just only have the Nacho cheese. No atomic. But, as we’re eating, we’re anticipating that we’re gonna get to that, your Dopamine is responding.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Michelle Norris: And so, this is something that the food chemical people know about us. So, when we do this, we’re like— we are eating. We are spiking that Dopamine. And then, yes. We need to come back in with sugar. And, usually, it’s Coke or it’s some kind of Soda Pop, or whatever. And so, that’s usually what you’re— you’re gonna do, and, of course, they’re in bed together. So, that’s a whole another story.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Michelle Norris: But when— So there was uh— Rob talked about this in one of his talks an— at Ancestral Health Symposium. Uhm— There was a— I believe it was Man Versus Food, or something— some show. And uhm— The guy on the show was in an eating uh— uh— an ice cream eating contest. And it’s some big huge thing. It’s like 40 ounce of some ice cream or whatever, and he’s shovelling it down, and shovelling it down, and shovelling it down, and he’s doing really well. And then, all the sudden, he starts kind of turning to green and like he can’t do anymore, and he’s got a certain amount of time he’s got to finish this in. So, he asked them for aid— aid— uhm— order of French fries. So, he takes uh— He gets the French fries. He eats a few French fries. And then, what happens is that tampers that back down, and now, he can put more sweet in him. He was able to finish it in time to win whatever it was. It’s like some pig jumping contest or something. It’s a big huge this Sunday. And that’s— The p— This is where we’re biologically and chemically made. This is how we’re made. And so, the thing is, is that he would not have been able to finish that ice cream if he had not had the salt, if he had not had that comp— you know— that con—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The salt kind of sugar combo there. Yeah.

Michelle Norris: Which is why all junk foods are filled with both salt and both sugar. So— Because, they get you want needing to eat more. That’s why lay’s is— They’re— They’re tagline is but, “You can’t eat just one.” Yeah. Because they are chemically made to.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: You have to have more. It’s food with no break.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: It’s— uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s like the Pringle commercials in the 90’s, “Once you pop, you can’t stop.” Right?

Michelle Norris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah! Exactly. And so— uhm— Yeah. Totally, uhm— It that— That is. Is just that Dopamine response and we’re— We are, unfortunately, uhm— and— and less remindful about how we eat. Uhm— We are actually being kind of uh— just controlled in that respect, because you can’t— you’re doing what your— your body is wanting it to do. And the problem is, is that when those things come in, and they kick up your Dopamine response and they shut down your satiety receptors, you— you’re screwed. Like, your body’s never gonna say, “Enough! I don’t need any more. I’m full.” Because, you’re gonna keep having the— the back and forth.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and your hormones and your neurotransmitters are stronger than your willpower. So, if you don’t know what’s happening, and you’re eating certain foods that are throwing your hormones and your neurotransmitters off, Dopamine, etc., and causing blood sugar swings, that’s gonna take away any willpower you have. So, the first thing you need to do is— Whoah! Just put good things in your house, and then, that’s gonna start shifting your hormones and your neurotransmitters. Then, you can start choosing the right foods. And if you start getting more fat adapted, you start getting more Ketones in your system. And Ketones are actually very satiating. They really connect the brain— the part of the brain, the Apostatic Control Satiation. It really talks to it and— and— and quells those cravings. So then, when you’re making decisions, you can make it based off of what’s best for you. Not— not feeding that beast of the— you know— Those neurotransmitters are bouncing up and down like you mentioned.

Michelle Norris: Oh, yeah. I know. I mean, it is. It’s like having a monkey on your back, and you’re constantly having a feedback monkey.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: It’s— It’s like I really equate that to an addiction, like it’s the— it’s the same thing. It is exactly the same thing for somebody that’s addicted to some type of drug. We get addicted too. We need the sugar. We need the— the salt. We need the sugar. We need the salt. We are addicted to that, and so uhm— And the things is that it’s hard-wired into the way we— we were built as humans so we can’t let go against the biology. What we have to do is learn how to work with it and learn how to not become a— you know— kind of a pawn in the— the food manufacturer’s game. So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, this information, people can be empowered. So, I love that. That’s phenomenal. And then, real quick too. I want to just kind of just back up a little bit. What did you do to help lower the mycotoxin levels? Outside of just the obvious, like— you know— You’re renting your house so you can move out, which is— which is convenient, but what were you doing on the supplement side? I know you mentioned some sauna stuff. What supplements were you doing as well?

Michelle Norris: Okay. So, I do— I do ID Nutrition, which is customized to me. And so then…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: …the other thing is that I had some uhm— EBV virus protocols that— that Brian had gotten for me. Uhm— So, I was using those to try to uhm— [dog barks] help get rid of that. Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That was the Epstein-Barr Virus. And w— what was that? Were you doing Monolaurin, or Reishi or Cat’s Claw? What kind of uhm— antivirals were you doing?

Michelle Norris: Tsp— I’m gonna tell you uhm— It’s called— It’s Epstein-Barr Protocol. It uh— It is by— I’m trying to see the bottles over here ‘cause I’m like, “What is that company?” Uhm— Hang on. I’m gonna be right— Let me grab it. [pause] So, it’s DESBIO. It’s— So, I don’t know if you can see that but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh. DESBIO, yep. I’ve heard of them. Yep. Very cool.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. It’s uhm— I think it’s DES— the real full name is Deseret or Deseret Biologicals? Uhm— But uh— This is my final one. I had a d— a different one. So, he had me on uhm— He hand me on several of these tinctures. And I was taking some in the morning and some in the evening. And uhm— That w— That’s really what helped get rid of the— is— was this particular protocol. And I know that they have an actual uhm— Mold Protocol. A Bull Mold Bold Protocol, but he had me on a couple of different things instead of that. Uhm— But I would imagine that that Mold protocol probably works really well, but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great. So, you’re on that with the— with the EBV. Was there anything else you were doing? We weren’t doing any activated charcoal or any Citrus pectins or any Glutathione— things like that?

Michelle Norris: No. Actually, he had me intentionally off of Glutathione uhm— that I was uhm— taking. I’m taking a Homocysteine hmm— type of uhm— tablet. And then, uhm— just really— The big thing was sleep. I mean, like he was just on me about sleep. You’ve got to figure out. Get your sleep right. And then, I’m trying to think if there was anything— Oh! And then, they also have a full detox program. That’s really cool. Uhm— That was one of the things that helped get rid of all the heavy metals was I went through that protocol. I’ve done that protocol uhm— three times now. And uh— But there was— There’s an Epstein-Barr Protocol. It’s uhm— two boxes, ten tinctures in each box, and you do the tincture every three days, and then, you do the next box in reverse. And so uhm— Really uhm— I Started really feeling great after that and started getting back my and— and actually started really losing weight once I did that with Keto.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great. And then, how about the female hormone stuff. Was just separating the— was it the Estrogen and the Testosterone? Would that make a bigger difference with the migraines?

Michelle Norris: Actually, I came off of all of my hormones.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, great.

Michelle Norris: And I do— They have a hormone combination, and uhm— I did the hormone combination. And the only thing that we put that we went back on— that I went back on was my Progesterone an— in the evening to— for sleep. And uhm— So, it’s interesting after taking the— this tincture that’s uh— It’s called Hormone Combination. Uhm— I take uh— that the morning and in the evening. And uhm— I actually just redid my hormones not too long ago, like a couple of weeks ago. And uhm— [laugh] what’s funny is, I’m actually taking hormone replacement for Progesterone. My Progesterone was w— was not high enough. [laugh] I was like, “Wait. What?” But my d— my uh— Estrogen and my uhm— Testosterone were fine. And, one thing that we realized, too, through this process is that I’m very Estrogen dominant.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: So, Combination was really helpful in helping balance out that Estrogen and uhm— getting everything right. But, my Progesterone is still low so uhm— but I was taking— I’m taking the highest dose so we’re not sure—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How many milligrams? A hundred? Two hundred?

Michelle Norris: Two hundred.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: —ll, yeah.

Michelle Norris: And uhm— So I think, we’re probably d— I think that might have been an anomaly. It might be something we’re— or maybe I— I think I missed my Progesterone a couple of nights that week before. So, that might be it. I don’t know. So, we’ll see. I— I— She can’t go up on my uhm— my Progesterone, anyway, so uh— we’re just gonna s— wait it out and see how that works out. You know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And I see it a lot— a lot of my patients too. I see that because Progesterone’s uh— It’s a buil— It’s higher up than the hormonal cascade than— than Cortisol. So, what happens is if the more stressed you are, you’ll actually pull from Progesterone to make that stress hormone Cortisol, and that’s— That makes sense. The— All those stressful episodes can easily pull that Progesterone down, and basically start skewing you in the Estrogen Dominance, where that ratio of Progesterone, which is typically like 23 to 25 times higher than Estrogen. It starts to drop. And that’s— That makes sense with the Estrogen Dominance that you mentioned before.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. So, anyway, I’m feeling a lot better so I’m thinking that uhm— We’ll probably uhm— just wait out and see— and see how my Progesterone works out next.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it.

Michelle Norris: So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Any other knowledge bombs you want to drop? Anything else that you think is very important that you learned? Or, anything else about your health challenges that you’re going on that you want to teach the listeners about?

Michelle Norris: Uhm— Probably, one— One of the things that uhm— is— is to just really be— [pause] Yeah. This is particularly— Women are this way. We tend to not take care of ourselves. Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Michelle Norris: We take care of everybody else first. But it’s like…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Michelle Norris: …being on a plane and— you know— the Oxygen mass dropped. It’s— You got to tap the drone on first before…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love that

Michelle Norris: —else. And so, I really started learning that I have to protect my sleep. I have to protect my time to take care of myself, and— and not feel bad about it. Because, the thing is, is that a lot of people depend on me, and if I m not able to do what I need to do, uhm— because I’m not taking care of myself, then, I’m letting them down anyway. So, it’s not— This is— The whole thing is I think that we go through this thing uhm— I come last. And— you need to come first. Annd uhm— So, I would— That would probably be the biggest thing that I would say I’ve learned in through all of this is that I have to come first. I can’t— I can’t let myself go last because uhm— I mean, that doesn’t mean I’m selfish and I’m like, “Oh. I’m not going to do anything for anybody else. It just means I have to protect that time. So that I make sure that I’m the best that I can possibly be for everybody else.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Totally makes sense, right? I mean, you can’t write a cheque for a money in the bank you don’t have. You can’t write uh— an energetic cheque for energy you don’t have in your— in your energetic tank, right? You gotta make those deposits with time and sleep and good nutrition and making yourself a priority. So, I think that’— that’s really good mindset advice.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. And then, the other thing is he was like, “Take a water time for myself in the morning and the evening to bookend my day. So— tsp— I usually do some type of meditation in the morning and some type of— of uh— uplifting reading. And then, in the evening, same thing. I do the same exact thing. I do meditation, and I do some type of uplifting reading. Uhm— One of the things that I noticed that I cannot do in— at night is that I cannot read Self-help books for— ‘Cause in my brain starts going and I’m like, “Oh. I want to get up and I need to go do this, and I need to go do that.” And I— So, I have learned to read things that are uplifting but they’re not— they’re not gonna be— mke my brain start going. So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. That’s phenomenal. Well, I urge all the listeners to head over and see the South by Southwest talk at the Palmer Health Event Center with you and Keith tomorrow. That is phenomenal. That will be March 10 for any of the listeners listening live. And then, PaleoFX i gonna be what the last weekend in April this year?

Michelle Norris: Yes, the 27th through the 29th. Uhm— And then, we also have Health Entrepreneur FX, which is the day before, for anybody that’s in the States. And uhm— we have uh— JJ Virgin and Dr. Mercola will both be at the Health Entrepreneur FX and, of course, at PaleoFX. Uh— Sir Valentine— It’s uh— packed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Chris Kresser, Robb Wolf, you have them coming.

Michelle Norris: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. Incredible. But we have— Yeah. Dr. Perlmutter’s coming back this year. We have uhmLike I said earlier, we have Paul Chek, which…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, great.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. I’m excited about him, JJ Virgin, uhm— uh— Dr. Mercola, uhm— I’m like so losing my mind here. [laugh]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There’s so many people. You got like 50-60 people there. [crosstalk] But, you’ll have all the speakers uh— listed there as well. I’m excited to be back too.

Michelle Norris: Yes. It’s gonna be an incredible event. I’m excited. Uhm— We made— We’re making a lot of changes to this uhm— tsp— this event this year. O— We also have the— on it uhm— World Open will be at— being held at PaleoFX, which is super cool. We have uhm— Pole dancing will be at PaleoFX. And—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Michelle Norris: Yeah. I’m really excited about all these things ‘cause I think they’re gonna be uh— add a really cool element of fun. And, uhm— it’s just gonna be a great show.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. We’ll put the— the link to get your tickets and everything below here. If you’re listening or you’re on the podcast, click the description there, and for more info. Awesome, Michelle. Thank you so much. I’ll do a little video here I’ll put it out in the weeks before PaleoFX comes out. Of my top three things I’ve learned at PaleoFX. I’ll put a little plug out there. I asked you those three questions earlier. I’ll answer mine in the later video. So, thank you so much for coming on and all the great info you shared. And also, your health story, I appreciate that. People can learn a lot from other people’s health challenges, and I think that’s really insightful.

Michelle Norris: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it and we look forward to seeing everybody at PaleoFX.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thanks, Michelle. Take care.

Michelle Norris: Yep.


Ancestral Health Symposium Talks and “Man Versus Food” by Robb Wolf

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