Mold and Mycotoxin Remediation | Podcast #221

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Mold can be a potential stressor that could be affecting someone’s ability to heal. It’s also a big rabbit hole of functional medicine because every symptom potentially could be mold.

In this episode, Dr. J and Evan Brand give us the updates on their battle with molds. Each of them shares with us their pre and post mold remediation results. Do you have mold, or do you have blood sugar, do you have hormonal issues or gut issues? What is it and how do you know? Continue and learn some ways to naturally address it.

Stay tuned for more!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

00:54    2 Biggest Variables to Know Mold is a Problem

04:57    Pre and Post Mold Remediation Results

13:16    Dehumidifier and Mold Issues that May Not be Due to a Leak

18:21    Mold Issues in Tropical Regions

29:10    For those Living in Apartment, Condo, Townhouse, etc.

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey guys, it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani here. Today is gonna be another podcast on mold remediation. I got my pre and post mold remediation results. I’m looking forward to sharing them with you all today. So, mold can be a potential stressor that could be affecting someone’s uhm, ability to heal. It’s also a big rabbit hole, rat hole of functional medicine because every symptom potentially could be mold. So, do you have mold, or do you have blood sugar, do you have uhm, hormonal issues or gut issues, right? What is it, how do you know?

So, off the bat, I found a little bit of mold here behind my stove top. We were able to remediate it in a way that was natural, meaning, we didn’t create more harmful metabolites and increase allergenicity or toxicity in the house with some of the metabolites that may form with some of the more conventional killing methods. So we chose a more natural approach to address the underlying issues.

So, first off, how do you know mold is actually a problem? So, do you have any active visible mold, that’s number 1. Again, that doesn’t tell you the whole story. Number 2, do we have any uhm, let’s just say leaks in the house, visible water stains, visible drywall damage, uhm do you have very high humidity in the house where you can almost s- almost smell or scents you may have some mold in the house? Does humidity get a very high? So, typically there’s gonna be an active leak, and/or, uhm, a very high humidity throughout the year, or certain times of the year that can cause mold growth. Those are gonna be the 2 biggest variables.

Outside, the potentially some insulation issues that can kind of create the same kind of thing. That’s gonna allow mold to form. And then of course, that can get into the household that can get into the ventilation of the house and that can kinda go systemic so you have one room with an issue and that can totally go systemic. Now my situation, we had a- issue, I think what it was, was the seal with the- the stove top, uh, water from previous owners had gone back behind the baseboard, and the actual uhm, the baseboard of the- the stove top in the cabinet in the drywall. So, kinda got right in between that area. Overall, we checked for moisture. Moisture reading are all coming back low, that’s a good sign that it’s not an active leak ’cause is- if it’s an active leak, or if it’s- you know, been going on for a long period of time and- and the underlying issue hasn’t been resolved, you’re gonna see the moisture readings coming back on the higher side. So, the great thing about that is, we can get a window into moisture being a problem or not if we see these moisture readings up high.

Number 2, uhm, we can kinda come back there and we can do some testing to quantify what’s going on. So, one of the big things that I do was uhm, mold plate testing to assess pre – the levels of mold I need to run. So, we did one in the basement, we did one in the kitchen, we did one upstairs, and it was the kitchen area that showed the highest. Everything was at 3 or below, and the kitchen was at 15 or higher, and we want everything to be below 5. So, we are good everywhere else, but we did comeback with a negative reading in the kitchen on our pre-reading. And actually, Evan just popped on the hang out, so, Evan, what’s going on man, today, we’re talking about mold remediation.

Evan Brand: Oh, good, good, good. I’m glad I made it. So, my- my appointment took less time than I thought it would, so I’m glad I could join in man.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. I’m gonna put you on my little headset here, just to get a better audio- audio quality set up.

Evan Brand: Good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So I’m just talking about some of uhm, what we found on the pre-testing. And, I’m gonna share screen to you in a little bit. And I know, you’ve done some pre-testing, you wanna share some of your pre-test info?

Evan Brand: I definitely could, yeah. I mean, here’s the thing that’s- that’s good about you, is that you weren’t really symptomatic. See, I’m like way, you know, ten times more symptomatic than you, so, you and I, we were talking off air, I was so glad that you preemptively figured out your problem before it made you sick versus me, I didn’t figure out my problem until I was already sick.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So, I didn’t have a big issue but I know mold is a stressor, it’s a big stressor in your stress bucket. I know for you, you didn’t have many symptoms at all for a long period of time until you got in contact with a whole bunch of mold. So, it’s not worth chancing it, right? So, that was one of the big things is taken that stressor out of our stress bucket. Yours came back really high in the pre-testing. Let me share my screen, so some people can see what my scores were. And then, today’s topic here will be mold remediation, it’s like part 3, I think, right?

Evan Brand: Yeah, I mean, err- this will be a never ending series, so, hope people enjoy it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I think it’s- it’s important because uhm, we found some really more affordable ways to address the situations which uhm, were phenomenal, because a lot of other ways are expensive-

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -and number 2, they sometimes can create more harsh metabolites that can be a stressor on the body, right?

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s the thing, these people go and, “Oh yeah, we heard the mold remediation guy down the street”, uh, but the problem is, uh, the- the guy down the street could be using toxic chemicals, you know, people talk about using bleach to wipe stuff down. I mean, it’s just terrible idea and that’s gonna make you way socker.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, 100%, exactly. So, let me just show you my screen here. This is my first test here that we did. And you can see the basement island was at 3, uhm, which was great because I actually had a little bit of uhm, baseboards that had some mold on them in the basement, but the guy that did the mold remediation said, “Yeah, that’s probably just from them sitting out in the lumber yard”. Initially it’s pointing out an active mold issue, it’s just kind of stained, right?

Evan Brand: Aah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And it seemed like he was right, so that was a 3, and then the master bedroom which is good, was a 2, and the kitchen island you can see was a 19. So, that was really on the higher side. And some of the mold that came back I think was more from a water type of species. What was that species refer to for the- for the water one?

Evan Brand: Uhm, aspergillus and penicillium, those are the 2 main ones, there could be others like fusarium-based mycotoxins but it’s usually aspergillus penicillium is a water damage boulding.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And then if you look on my post-testing, right? Here’s the dates, you could see my kitchen island is zero. So, like, nothing came back, and then look at the basement, uh, 1, and then the master came back at 1, and we’ve done previous podcast, so take a look at the previous ones on mold remediation which go more into depth on how we addressed it, but just in general, make sure the underlying cause of the leak is fully addressed. We topically hit the mold with 20% hydrogen peroxide which is very effective. And- and the formula that I use, the hydrogen peroxide plus parasitic acid, so was like a hydrogen peroxide-apple-cider-vinegar kind of mix, topically hit it, uhm, we cleaned it up first in a negative pressure environment, topicly hit it with the apple-cider-vinegar, hydrogen peroxide 20%, not the 3%, but the 20%-

Evan Brand: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -and it can burn your skin, so be very careful. And then we did a fogging, a dry fog solution of the citrusafe formulas which I’ll put links below, that are- are- ver- very effective. The benefit of- benefits of the dry fog is, it can get to a 1 to 10 microns size. So, that’s really-really tiny, can literally get in between your baseboards and the floor, it’s that powerful. So it gets in the nooks and crannies, and the cool thing is, you can leave all your clothes up, and all- all your furniture there ’cause you want that to topicly get treated. And when you spray it, it’s gonna kill it but then when it sits down, it’s gonna lay down on your clothes and on your walls and everything, and then as the mo- any potential mold particulate settles from the air and settles down on the ground gets what, there’s now a layer there that will kill any mold that falls to the ground.

Evan Brand: Yup, and I’ve got my reports now, I’m just tryin’ to get these downloaded here, so I can discuss this with you and we can share my screen and I’ll show you mine before and after-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes. Exactly.

Evan Brand: -I’m just trying to download here. Uh, I had more samples than you, uh, you know, I had- I wanna say maybe 6 or 7 samples total, uh, but then I also had a lot more insane difference in terms of my levels.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: So your levels were not too bad. Mine were pretty crazy. So that’s why I wanted to show these because I was just amazed. I- I- I saw- I was very skeptical, just to kinda educare people on-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -about what I did is that-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: -we did this enzyme solution that was like $5 a square foot.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah?

Evan Brand: I mean, I literally spent $10,000 out of pocket on that, and we got the plates back on it and the enzyme stuff did work, but the dry fog worked even better, and it’s so much cheaper.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, 100%. 100%. Let me see if I can get my camera back on me here…

Evan Brand: I see you so I think people should see you too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, let me just see here, I’ll just click over manually, no problem. Uhm, so, in general, yeah, you could see- the dry fog’s phenomenal because it’s a little bit more effective. Now, I can do my whole entire house, I got a pretty big house and I was able to do it for about a gallon. I got a- maybe- uh, 6,000 square foot house in change and like 1 gallon was enough to cover it. And I think that’s like right around a thousand dollars-ish for 1 gallon- for most. Most people are gonna be fine within a gallon or ha- or half a gallon, and it- it includes the dry fogger which is really cool and, I paid someone to do it, but I mean, I had in sight, uh, I could probably done it myself, it wasn’t too hard, it wasn’t too bad-

Evan Brand: Yeah. It’s not too hard, but I mean, at the same time, you know, you got a kid, you don’t wanna be-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh yeah.

Evan Brand: -in that environment with the kid and potentially breathing it in ’cause the fog, even though it is safe, it does deplete oxygen from the air, so I think you were better off in your case and my case, just to hire somebody to do it because you wanna make sure it’s done right too, ’cause, see if the fog wasn’t done thick enough, you know, that would be a problem too. So, uh- you know, you definitely did the right thing. Okay, I’ve got my report, you want me to share my screen here?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Do it, yeah.

Evan Brand: Alright. So, share screen… Okay, so there is you in the middle. So, uh, what we’re lookin’ at, let me get this even here so we can kinda compare apples to apples. On the left, you can see all these numbers. So, like attic, a bonus room which was uh, exposed to outside air, so that’s obviously gonna be higher, but then like a basement storage room, look at this. Basement storage, penicillium, on the left here, too much to count, too numerous to count. So we had some problems, look the kitchen, it was a 44.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Evan Brand: That’s really-really not good. So that- so let me go down and show you the pictures, look at how disgusting. So here is the before plates. Okay, and then here’s the after. So, now we got the kitchen down to a 7, but here’s the thing, the 7 sounds bad ’cause you want like 4 below, but when you look at the kitchen, uh, 3 of it is candida. And so we have a dog bed in the kitchen. So, 3 of it is candida. So if you take 2 penicillin to microsporum, really your score is a 4, ’cause you always subtract candida form the total colony numbers, see. So, 7, mine is 3, you get your 4. So, everything is really a 4. So, when you go back up the top and look at the numbers here, the C-room, I don’t remember which room that was, but C-room says a 6. So let’s go to that one-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: So, C-room, so that one still could use a little bit of work. See, so, C-room, you know, we only had a 1 candida, so that puts us at a 5, and optimal is 4 below according to the lab. But let’s look at the after pictures. So much better. Now, here’s the thing in this first one, you’re gonna look at this first on Justin, you’ll gonna be like, “Oh, my God, what happened?”. So, this is something interesting, this- this plate, I left it out, I- I didn’t shift it, soon enough to the lab. So, uh, what J.W. told me is that this is called second stage growth. So, this big black thing here or green thing in the corner, this is the penicillium, and which is only like a 1, but then it had babies.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Aah.

Evan Brand: So that’s the babies.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I see, that makes sense. And then, the candida isn’t necessarily as- as bad ’cause that’s what, that’s more of like a internal kind of uhm, mycotoxin than it is like in external environmental one, is that why?

Evan Brand: Well, so the candida is basically like on dog fur. So, the candida can just like come off the dog’s fur into the-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: -air, and then it’s in the air. But look at- I mean, look at the difference in the pictures, I mean, they’re equally disgusting in their own way, but you can tell that you’ve only got just a couple of species here, versus here, you’ve had a whole family of dis- disgusting-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. Totally. I’m just curious, what was the me- how do they make it grow? When they shine it under specific light that cause it to grow?

Evan Brand: Oh, you’re telling me, how do they get this and turn into this?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: Honestly it’s just time. If you pu- uh, if you have any extra plates out or you can order ’em, here, let me, stop sharing, I’ll come back to you now. Uh, so, if you just put a-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm…

Evan Brand: -plate like if you have an extra one, you can just leave one out in your kitchen today if you wanted and then just put- leave it on your countertop. Just sunlight, it’s- it’s the media that they use on that- on that plate that’s like a sticky substance. There’s something on that that makes it grow.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So-

Evan Brand: Any people that can’t afford to do the testing, they can just-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: -buy the plates, and then you can just watch the plates grow at your house. And if nothing grows, you’re- you’re good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, wow. That’s great.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, so in general we were able to do some pre and some post uhm to quantify it which was great. And it wasn’t too expensive to actually address the underlying issue. Now in your situation’s a little bit more unique, ’cause we’re on that, the climate’s a little bit more dry, but where you’re at is a little bit more hu- humid. So you ha- you had some water issues in general, but I think your new house didn’t necessarily have any water issues. So talk to everyone about what you did with the uhm, the humidifier to help rectify, uhm, mold issues that may not be due a leak.

Evan Brand: Right. So, if you’re 55-0, 50% relative humidity or higher, you’re gonna get mold growth, no matter what. And so, in the basement, we tested it and we were at around 56% humidity, which is really high, relative humidity. And so, we put it in a whole house dehumidifier. So, basically what it is, is it’s a- a dock work, you know, about this big around, and it hooks up to your dock work, and they cut a whole in your dock work so they have a return and a supplies. So, basically, what it does, is it kinda stills air from your dock work, pumps it through this dehumidifier, which is basically like- kinda like an air conditioning system-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Really?

Evan Brand: -t’s got a compressor-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -and all that in there, it takes the moisture out of the air, and then it pumps out drier air back into your dock work. Now, this is a whole house system versus, you know, some people-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -they get like a plug in… dehumidifier, but then you gotta drain the bucket of water. This- it’s completely hands off. I mean, I would be downstairs draining a dehumidifier bucket every couple hours if I didn’t have this system. So, this system has a little, uh, drain pipe that runs out of it, so it’s 24 runs- 24/7 or as needed. If it gets it down- the lowest that can go is to 40. So we actually- [crosstalk] switch 40%, no mold will grow there, and then it drains itself. So, I mean it’s- it’s a- the brain is called Aprilaire. That’s the one we did. So, a local, you know, heating and cooling company could install that if someone needed it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, the benefit of that is, you don’t have to constantly empty the- the dehumidifier with all that water because I mean, God forbid, you forgot for a couple days you may have a flood down there, with all these extra water coming back-

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -into the air.

Evan Brand: Good. The- that- that’s the one point of the second point is the ability to remove more air. So a portable dehumidifier is like for one room. You’re never gonna be to dehumidify a whole house with a little plugin job.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: Just like  you can’t de- you can’t uhm- you know, with one air, you know, like you and I, we ike a couple different brands of air filters, we wouldn’t just put one air filter and assume that’s-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: -gonna take care of the whole house.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. That totally makes sense.

Evan Brand: So, that’s why you needed it because, here’s the problem that people don’t understand, they’ll go like, “Okay, well-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -you know you and Justin talked about the dry fog, okay, I’m gonna do the the dry fog…”-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: -but there’s a disclaimer to that, which is that you can’t remediate your house if you stop the moisture problem, because if you’re a 55, 60% humidity and you do the fog, yeah, you’re gonna kill all the existing mold, and you’re gonna drop it down, but then it could just come right back. It could just regrow again if you’re 60%.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And speaking to J.W. at the lab, as well as, I think it’s Jeff Bookout, err- don’t go crazy in house if you don’t see any active water damage, and/or someone’s coming, and with a moisture meter and assess some of the- the walls and the various areas and there’s no actual active water damage where you can’t see anything, don’t stress out, it could just be a humidity issue. And then you just need this really good Whole House Dehumidifier, to fix the humidity issue. Does that sound right?

Evan Brand: It does. Yeah, so, you know, a lot of people, when they see those plates, you know, they may get concerned. So step 1 is really do plates, I would say step 2 is get a portable humidity monitor. I just bought one on Amazon, 10-11 bucks and you can just, you know, take it to a room, “Hey, what’s my bedroom? My bedroom’s 34%”, okay, perfect, you don’t have a problem. Uh, and then of course, it wouldn’t hurt if you- if you’re someone who has been sick, you know, we- you- you and I work with a lot of women who they’re stay at home moms, uh, housewives, so they’re home all the time, right? So, this is why some-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: -people, they quit their job, right? ‘Cause, “Oh, I- I’m so tired I can’t work”, so they quit their job. Now they’re- they’re home 99% of the time, at house that’s making them sick. So, if you have been sick, do the plates. It wouldn’t hurt to have like a roofer come by, check your roof, check your attic, make sure there’s no water getting in, I mean, the price you pay now for some of these stuff is 5 to 10 times cheaper than if you’re so sick, and now you’re tearing out walls, and now you’re doing major-major stuff, I mean, you can fix stuff before it becomes super problematic.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. Now, a lot pf people, if they have a Central Air system, that may be okay in the summertime because Central Air is gonna dehumidify the house essentially, correct?

Evan Brand: It does some. Yeah, but in- in our climate, uh, the Central Air would not be enough. We need more firepower than what-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk] Right, so- so essentially, what I was leading to was the fact that, okay, great, you know, it’s no longer the hot months, let’s say it’s 50 or 60 degrees out, or even 70 degrees out, that may not be hot enough to have the Central Air on but you still have a high level of humidity. So, I think where the dehumidifier comes in, is when, okay, it’s not really hot enough to have the AC on, that’s where the dehumidifier matters ’cause you’re not really changing the temperature at all, which the AC will change to temperature and remove humidity at the same time, but you’re just focusing on the reduction in humidity, is that correct?

Evan Brand: That’s right, yeah. So, even in in the winter here, you know, we’re running the heat, so theoretically the heat would dry out the moisture, we were still at 56% humidity. So-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow!

Evan Brand: -that tells you in the summer, I mean, it could’ve been 70, 80, I mean, who knows? I mean, if you’ll look at like average humidity in Kentucky, I mean, outside in the summertime, it’s 80, 85% humidity. There’s no way you can live here and not have a moisture problem unless you dehumidify, that’s my opinion.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I think this is really important. So, if you’re living in an environment, ’cause I have a lot of patients that live in tropical environments too, where they’re like, “I don’t have a water leak, I’m good”, but it’s like, yeah, humidity is up and you probably need a dehumidifier. Maybe even a dehumidifier on top of top uhm, the AC unit. I mean, I- I wonder how much- ’cause like, with your unit, that’s gotta sep- uh, separate piping where it gets that moisture out. You probably even need a separate thing if you really live in a tropical climate where there’s even higher humidity.

Evan Brand: Oh, man, you would have to like we have run. I’d have a few clients in Hawaii since all these stuff happened to me and you and I not being going down this rabbit hole together. And we’ve tested people in Hawaii, I’ve had ’em just buy this little humidity monitor, I mean, we’re seeing people’s homes at 78%, 76%, it’s like, “my God”, mold forms at 51%. So, if you live in Hawaii and you got the beautiful beach house in paradise, it doesn’t matter. Now, Jeff, on the podcast we did, he claims that saltwater, uh, if- if your home is being filled with moisture due to saltwater, it theoretically it would keep the mold count down. So he says that at- you know, once you go a hundred miles inland, so the beach front should be good because it’s salt water, just coming in the home through the air, not like lake water. But he says a hundred miles inland or a hundred fifty miles inland, that’s where we would see a band of problems.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Aah…

Evan Brand: However, however, it’s so very interesting, however, I’ve seen people that have houses on the beach, they have mold problems. And even, uh, Erin Elizabeth, Dr. Mercola’s partner, she’s been posting on some of her Facebook pages about her house. So her- her and Dr. Mercola, oop, sorry, notification ding, uhm, her and Dr. Mercola, they live on- on the beach in Florida and they’ve got stachybotrys, they’ve got black mold right now-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Evan Brand: -and they live on the beach.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah I guarantee you-

Evan Brand: They live on the beach so-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah and they- they probably need a dehumidifier as well.

Evan Brand: Oh man, I- I mean, so- so- so- you know, when I talked with Jeff, he said, “Yeah, you know, the beach is not a problem but I- I’ve proven it not to be the case. I- I’ve proven the beach can’t be a problem, and these Hawaii houses, you’ve got no other option but to have dehumidifiers running all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah we see people in the notes talking about humidifiers. Just make sure it’s uhm , we differentiate, right? Humidifiers are what we do to add moisture to the air. So in my house I actually have a Whole House uh, humidifier ’cause it gets so dry like around 10 to 15%. It’s just your skin gets super dry ’cause the moisture is so low. So we actually have a humidifier where I am. So just make sure dehumidifier, we’re removing moisture, we need the high levels of moisture about 50 for mold to grow, we’re removing it, uh, humidifier, we’re adding it. So a lot of times like with infants they may have drier, you know, sinuses, whatever, we may add humidity to it. And actually, one thing we did is that, one point we left the humidifier on too long, we actually got mold growth in one of the carpets. We had to like-

Evan Brand: Oh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We had to like clean it up and throw it away. So be careful even if you have the humidifier on, you’d really wanna make sure the humidity isn’t get too high ’cause then you’re gonna have mold growth.

Evan Brand: Good call. Well, especially if that humidifier is like sitting on a night stand over carpet versus if it were like-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s what happened to us! That’s what happened.

Evan Brand: Oh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup, exactly.

Evan Brand: See, ’cause if you had a hard wood under it, or- or- or like maybe it were uh, like in a bathroom next to the main room and the- and- and the bathroom floor was tile, maybe that moisture wouldn’t do- do damage and create mold on the tile, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well that’s if you had hard wood beneath it, so-

Evan Brand: Oh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -we just picked the carpet up, we rolled it up and just throw it away and then just, uhm, clean the uhm, the wood with a really good citrus solution to kill everything.

Evan Brand: Okay, okay. Uh, so we had a question from Missy. She was asking, “How do you know if the fog is thick enough?”, uh, you can’t see your hand in front of your face, Missy. Uh, I was- at my house when Jeff fogged it for me, and I laughed so hard because he uh- he said, “Evan, if you have people ask you, how thick does it need to be, it needs to be this thick”. So we went down my staircase and when he stepped off the bottom stair, it looked like he went to another dimension. I mean, I couldn’t even see him, he was gone. I’m like, “Where’d you go?”. [Laughs]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. You sent the pictures and the videos, I mean, that was hilarious.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Technology is so great because, you know, I think- I mean, if you topicly have mold though, I mean you probably wa- you wanna hit that up. You probably want a higher professional because some of the solutions are very-very costic, but if you don’t have actual water damage, uhm, you know, and you can have an easy solution of getting a dehumidifier in the house, and potentially even fogging it your- yourself, it wouldn’t even be that bad, I mean, I know that I am- the Immunolytics guy, they have some pretty good instructional videos walking through everyone how to do it.

Evan Brand: Yeah, it- it- it- it is definitely this is all do it yourself unless you have damaged materials like you said, then you’ve gotta take out walls and put in new drywall, whatever, remove carpet in your case-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And it has to be done- the carpet situation wasn’t that big of a deal but, ’cause it was isolated we knew what it was but, when we have the water damage in the wall, we needed to have the whole entire remediation done in a negative pressure environment ’cause you don’t want everything to go systemic. So the negative air pressure keeps everything isolated and- and pulls it out versus let’s say sprays it all around.

Evan Brand: Yeah, yeah, good call. So yes, you could do s- this stuff yourself, you could hire it all out, I think it really just depends on your budget, and then it depends on your illness, right? I was so symptomatic, I did not wanna chance doing something wrong, I needed my environment, this is my work, environment, this is my home environment, I couldn’t take any chances because I won’t be on this podcast, you know, if I were- if I were too sick. So, I needed- my health was like number 1. So, for me, I just hired him. I’m just like, “Hey, you- you gotta do it for me, I- I couldn’t take any risk”.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh yeah. And because we have a lot of home offices, you know, was- it worked out as a nice business expense which, you know, we- we’re here all the time. So, that was good, we were able to utilize that. Uhm, but people that aren’t at home as much, you may not notice an issue as much. I know you did, you worked at home, but the fogging is a really good option to a- do it yourself if you need which is great.

Evan Brand: Here’s the thing. Even if someone works outside of the home, right? Like they’re 9 to 5 or in a typical office setting, they still sleep at home for 8 to 10 hours-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: -at night. So, like, even if you’re like, “Oh, well my house is bad but I’m out at the office all the time, I work all the time”, well, so what you’re still at the house sleeping for those 8 hours, and we know that mold exposure reduces melatonin production, it reduces nitric oxide productions so you have uhm, decrease circulation, I think it may be a contributor to sleep apnea, and insomnia, and other sleep problems as well. So, you can’t justify not doing anything because you work outside of the home. You still gotta fix it ’cause at your- at your environment where you’re sleeping and where you’re trying to rest and recover, your glymphatic system kicks in and detoxes you, and that all just gets disrupted if you have mold in your bedroom.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And uhm, I spoke with, I think it was J.W. and Jeff Bookout, they talked about the more conventional products like the Concrobium, which I spoke with some of the mold remediation guys, you know, Concrobium is an extract from, I think Olive leaf.

Evan Brand: Oh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And they were talking about it being little bit more natural but it seemed like uhm J.W. work from Im- Immunolytics lab was talking about the fact that it can create some more hyper allergenic metabolites that people could react to. Do you have any insight on that?

Evan Brand: I- I don’t. I- I’ve just would say that I’ve had people who said, “Hey, I’ve already remediated using that”, and they still were symptomatic. But that’s all I can tell you, it’s just a couple clients said, “Yeah I’ve already done that, it didn’t work”, so, uh, here’s another interesting thing that- that him and I talked- talked about is when- when they were mixing all these blends for the fog, I don’t know if I’ve told you this already, if I did I’ll tell you again, but when they were trying to come up with the formulation for this stuff, certain uh- certain ratios of essential oils made the mold problem worse. So they would do a plate, build a- build a- a supplement basically, fog it and then retest and, “Oh my God, the mold is way worse”. So then they would tweak it again, “Oh, the mold is still worse” and they’d-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Evan Brand: -finally kept tweaking it, and then finally there’s the perfect ratio, boom, now we see that acts- takes numbers down not up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Very-very interesting. And then, one of the things I wanna highlight is that a pre to post testing on the air. So, they would do air samples. Mine actually went up higher after the remediation-

Evan Brand: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -which is interesting but, he- the- the gentleman that did the remediation said my levels were so low, uhm pre and post anyway, it wasn’t even an issue. But the plate testing showed high in the kitchen, and then at significant drop, lika I showed you on the testing from I think what I say, 16 to 0, or 19 to 0. So-

Evan Brand: Wow.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -the plate testing I feel like they were, you know, they really showed the difference pre and post where the air didn’t quite give that range, even though it went up it wasn’t that big of a deal. And, I think from what I understand, ’cause you’re- you’re sucking uhm, air, so, I think-

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -you could pull more of a general samples so you could grab 1 particle, 2 particles that can increase it, where the plates are just kinda there in a natural environment and they aren’t, you know, air is not being pushed on it, upon it more artificially if you will.

Evan Brand: Yeah, I- I- I like the idea of having both, you know, the air and the plates, it’s kinda like in functional medicine, we’re not gonna make a whole work up on somebody, just based on a stool test. ‘Cause we can look at a stool test and we could see, “hey, they didn’t test for candida”, so then this person thinks, “Well, I don’t have any candida”, but then we get their urinary organic acid test back and were like, “Woah, you have a big candida overgrowth”. So-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: -instead we have multiple testing methodologies and the plates, you know, you can’t beat them. The- they’re- they’re good thing for your buck.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And in my situation you could see the mold, here’s the plate, it was high, we addressed it, we treated it, came back and then it was a hundred percent gone. So it did fall through clinically what we observed.

Evan Brand: Yeah, and people talked about like the ERMI test and the EMMA, E-M-M-A and all these other tests, I just haven’t needed them. I haven’t needed them. If- if the plates, you know, so I- I kinda take 2 things in a consideration, 1 is how do I feel any environment? If I feel bad, if I feel dizzy, if I feel sick, if I don’t sleep well, well, my symptoms are there, so now did the plates correlate? And if they did, okay good, and then I fixed the plates, and then I feel better, right? So, I think you could go on and do more of like the Dr. Shoemaker protocols, the ERMI, the EMMA, there’s a lot of other tests out there that are more expensive. But for me, I just haven’t needed to go there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and the cool thing about the plate is they actually send you the picture so you can see how the plate actually looks. So it’s not some a theoretical, I’m guessing, you can actually see it, which is kinda cool.

Evan Brand: I thought it was just like a sample photo. When I first got the repot back, I was like, “There’s no way this is real, there’s no-“, I had to call ’em. I’m like, “Is this seriously my picture of my plates, like, yep, oh my- haaaa?!”, so it’s a very good convincer for people that are skeptics, you know? We have a lot of women that they feel sick but the husband’s not sick, so then the husband thinks you’re crazy, “Oh, it’s not mold, this couldn’t do that to you”, and then when they see the picture, they’re like, “Oh, I’m sorry, why if you are correct, this is a problem, let’s fix it”. So it’s good convincer at- at the- at the least.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And I had some patients that are literally spending a hundred thousand dollars to remediate their house, so I just- so fortunate that we found some methods that are so much more cost-effective. Now, if there’s tons of visible water damage, for sure, it may cost a little bit more, but we should definitely be able to get it way beneath that. And then even for people that are just, you know, on the- on the borderline, right? If we just fix the humi- the humidity aspect and we fog the house, that should be a good solution in general.

Evan Brand: Yeah, now let- let’s talk about this real quick. Uhm, so if you live in an apartment or a condo, or a townhouse or something, then, you- you are at more increased risk of having problems, right? Because let’s say you’re on a second floor apartment, you’ve got people above you that, maybe their dishwasher overflowed, or their toilet leaked, or they left their sink on, or they let their shower water leaked out onto their floor, and then your ceiling, is their floor, right? So, in that cavity between their floor and your ceiling, there could be water and creating mold above you, and there could be- err- people with a problem below you, uh, with a hotel, it could be a central system where you share all the same and eating dock work, so the hotel room 3 doors down could have flooded, and that moldy air gets pumped through the whole hotel, so then everybody’s sick, versus if you have an individual unit in your hotel, so, you are at a bigger risk. And, when I was in a hotel temporarily, uh, it took me 3 tries to find a hotel room that I could actually sleep soundly. And my wife reported the same thing. So, we saw water spots on the ceiling in the hotel, so we asked to move to room 2, and then we went to room 2, I still slept terrible, and then finally we got the room 3, and then I started sleeping and wife did too, and even our daughter. She was waking up all night complaining of a stomach ache.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And then she started sleeping through. So, it- it is a tricker situation when it’s not like a single family unit, uhm, you may have to try a little harder, but with the fog still working in apartment, condo, town home, yes, but, I mean, there may be some extra work where you gotta get to landlord or somebody else involved because the guy next door could be messing up your air.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So, at least in that situation, if it’s a hotel room, or if it’s an apartment, and it’s smaller, you could probably get- at least get a personal dehumidifier, and you could at least get a uhm- a personal air filter, and you could probably just fog it at least to, would it address the HVAC situation, but it’s better than nothing.

Evan Brand: Yeah, I mean, before I went in signed a lease on a place, I would probably 1, see how I feel. Most people aren’t as sensitive as me so they wouldn’t know, “Hey I feel bad in this environment”, most people wouldn’t pick up on that, but you could always take a plate with you-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Always take a plate with you.

Evan Brand: That’s what I did.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk] really high grade filters too, you know, ’cause the air is moving but it’s gotta go through a filter, typically to get out or get in, so you could always just upgrade in some really good quality air filters and get ’em changed frequently to make sure they’re- they’re good.

Evan Brand: Yeah, but that’d be a good bandaid to keep you afloat. But if I were gonna go buy a place or sign a lease on a place, I was kinda in the middle of houses or apartments or whatever, you know, you can buy some plates, you get a meter from immunolytics directly, or I carry ’em on my site as well, uh-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: -it’s still- it’s just- it’s- it’s 5 plates for- at the current, at the time of this recording it’s- right now, it’s $158, that’s the lab’s price, uh, for 5 plates including your report and a free consult with the laboratory. And, if I were gonna go and buy plates, I would have some plates with me, and I would tell the seller, or the- the relator I was working with, “Hey I’ve got a- uh- uh- uh- sensitivity, I need to make sure this is a clean environment for me, I’m gonna out this plates out for one hour, so we need to make sure we reserve this house showing for an hour”, and then okay, and then you seal the plates uo, and then you send them off to the lab, and then you- I mean, the rule state mark it’s kind of aggressive, so people, you may to like, try to hold the house, I don’t know if- you know, and this is- I don’t know how to advise you on that part but-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you like it, you would just- you’d bet on it and then in the auction period you could always pull back.

Evan Brand: Oh, there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Everyone has a one week auction period, in this- in U.S. at least.

Evan Brand: Okay, good. So if you have the auction period, then that’ll give you enough time to send your plates back to the lab, and then if the levels are just insane, or we see like stachybotrys, black mold, we see mucor, mucor usually indicates active water leak-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s the water damage one, mucor.

Evan Brand: Yeah, mucor, yeah. Uh, so- so, based on the report, you could decide, “Is this the house I love enough to proceed and fog and remediate, or is this a house that’s so bad there could be undiscovered water damage and leaks and etc., that you don’t wanna get into. ‘Cause the worst thing that could happen is, you pull the trigger on something else and then that other place makes you sicker than where you’re at now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, worst case scenario, you just tell the inspector, “Hey inspector”, let’s just really- I would even get a mold remediation personnel to- to really inspect as well if you like the house and just make sure they bring a good moisture meter to assess everything. And it could just be as- as simple as,”Hey, we gotta just maybe negotiate uh, an upgrade on the a- a- dehumidifier whole house”.

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s- that’s a good call, yeah. [Crosstalk]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …and then you fog it.

Evan Brand: Put that in your- your bordering.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, exactly. Well, anything else you wanted to highlight today on today’s uh, topic here Evan. I think we got a lot of different things addressed.

Evan Brand: No, we did great. I don’t know what the heck all you went into so you probably discuss other good stuff before I joined in, but uh, we’ll just send people back to the websites if they do wanna reach out. We can help talk you this further, uh, please reach out to Justin at his site, justinhealth- so justinhealth.com, and you could schedule a consult anywhere around the world, and for me, if you wanna reach out, evanbrand.com, and we look forward to talk with you again next week.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we offer the plate testing as well for all of our patients and people outside of uh- our patient network. Click below to get our links if you wanna get some of the plate testing, and then talk to us on the interpretation side of what that looks like. And then uhm, the next thing will be, if you wanna get some of the natural solutions to address some of the mold, the whole house fogging, some- I even have the laundry detergent, I did all my laundry yesterday in the uh, mold- anti mold laundry detergent as well just to- to be on the safe side. So I just kinda run like one cycle a close a month through that, just to be on the safe side.

Evan Brand: Yup, that’s what we’re doing too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. And we’re gonna have the links below, so if you guys wanna get any of those products or support the show we appreciate it, we wanna give you guys as many tools as possible so you guys can live an optimal life and have an optimal energy and focus and be pain-free. We appreciate you guys being part of the podcast. Thumbs up, give us a like, give us comments down below, we really appreciate you guys being a part of the show.

Evan Brand: Take care, see you later.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Take care Evan, bye.


References:

https://www.evanbrand.com/

https://www.justinhealth.com/

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