Hi everyone! Today in Beyond Wellness Podcast, we have Dr. David Jockers, author of the book Keto Metabolic Breakthrough. We’ll talk about the book, introducing ketosis more, feast famine technique, keto versus other diets, and do’s and don’ts of a fasting. Tons of interesting topics in this podcast so make sure to read and listen.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani
In this episode, we cover:
5:06 Feast Famine Cycle
14:12 HPA Axis on Keto Diet
22:02 Vegan vs Keto
34:42 Fasting facts, do’s and dont's
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey guys, it's Dr. Justin Marchegiani here. Welcome back to beyond wellness radio really excited today's gonna be an amazing show. My friend Dr. David Jockers is here in the house. He's got a new book right here, Bada bing bada boom, the Keto Metabolic Breakthrough. Really, really excited to have him on today's show. David, how are you doing, man?
Dr. David Jockers: Justin, doing great. Always great to be on with you.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent man. So let's talk about this book. I mean, number one, I've been kind of going through it the last couple of days. I love some of the infographics that you guys have in here. Everything's really actionable. So I mean, yeah, so obviously ketosis is like the newest thing. It's been around for forever, right? Let's just talk like, what is ketosis? What's the goal of being a ketosis? What does that look like for people?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, for sure. So most people are in a state of chronic sugar burning so our body can run off of glucose, which is sugar or fat or ketones basically, and ketones are a byproduct of fat metabolism. The unique thing about ketones is that they're water soluble and they cross through the blood brain barrier. So fatty acids themselves can't cross the blood brain barrier. So when your blood sugar goes down, norm for most people, they respond with hypoglycemic reactions, right? So they get irritable, stressed right? Have a lot of different different symptoms that way. If you're metabolically flexible, and you've got ketones in your system, your brain can run off of the ketones so you don't experience hypoglycemic effects. And ketones are a much better fuel source than sugar because you create significantly more energy per compound, you know, per unit, and then also, they, they, they create significantly less metabolic waste, so they're much cleaner energy source than glucose. Glucose produces a lot of metabolic waste a lot of oxidative stress in the body that ages us and we think about like rusting an apple or something like that, like rust. That's pretty much what's happening. So we want to have the metabolic flexibility to where we're good at using sugar when we need to, and that we do need to use it when we're, for example, exercising in a really high intensity or we're under tremendous stress. However, we want to primarily be using fat and ketones for fuel source. When we're at rest, when we're sitting at our desk working when we're, you know, doing 99% of the the activities that we're doing throughout the day, we should be using mostly fat and ketones as an energy source because just so much cleaner, and we produce so much more energy from it, and it's going to reduce the aging process. And so when we're using ketones as a fuel source, we noticed that we have better energy, that we have better mental clarity, better cognitive acceleration, were able to think sharply and quickly. We also notice that we have reduced inflammation in our body. So that means less pain means cleaner skin, you know, just so many great benefits to and of course, it's great, you know, and what it's marketed for is weight loss, right? So It's great for maintaining lean body mass and and staying lean and fit.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, like that. So essentially, we're just trying to make changes to our macronutrients to upregulate enzymes and hormones that help us burn fat for fuel. And then the whole goal of that is, we're restricting carbohydrates to an amount that keeps insulin at a lower level when insulin is lower than we can up regulate hormone sensitive lipase or these lipid lytic. Fat breaking down enzymes, so we can access this fat for fuel. Is that kind of the overall goal?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We can get into ketosis through fasting. We do it through exercise, and then we can do it through a low carbohydrate, high fat template diet.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now I kind of describe it as you can kind of highlight two there's three ways to get in ketosis. There's nutritional ketosis where you're modulating your macros but still getting enough calories while keeping insulin low, because you can still higher fat, moderate protein, you know, lower carbs 20 to 50 on the net carb side, some people they can do more depending on how active they are. But that's going to allow them to get their insulin low enough where they're burning fat, but there's not, there's still enough nutrition coming in where they're not going to be metabolized in their muscle, then there's just straight up fasting, which chronically over time, you'll eventually start ripping up muscle. And then of course, there's going to be ketoacidosis, but that's a little bit different. That's more when there's not enough insulin Type One Diabetes kind of situation, right.
Dr. David Jockers: And that's where the calorie on calorie restriction over time too, you know, so if your calorie restricted over time, you're going to be producing ketones as well. It's kind of like the fasting mimicking diet. You know, its calorie restricted models is a partial fast, that can help produce ketones as well.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: But what's the problem with that because obviously, every fad diet out there has that in common long term with some kind of a calorie restriction. But the research is kind of clear that there is some kind of a down regulation in the metabolism because the body's like, yo, there's not enough fuel here. We Have to decrease how much fuel we're burning. And then they're just kind of down shifting of the metabolism. And that's chronic, right?
Dr. David Jockers: Absolutely, absolutely. So the ancestral model is a feast famine model, right? So you think about our ancestors, they weren't able to necessarily get their full caloric needs every day, but over time, so they would kill something or they would have a good harvest or whatever it was, they would feast, they would eat a calorie surplus, and there will be times where they would have a calorie deficit. So it's kind of each famine cycle. And that's actually very healthy for our body as a sort of feast famine cycle. When we feast, we help activate thyroid hormone, we, you know, increase the amount of insulin we basically tell the body, you don't have to be under stress because we have plenty of food available. But of course, there's problems if we're feasting all the time. We're going to end up accelerating the amount of inflammation. It's kind of the same thing with fasting fasting is very anti inflammatory, reduces inflammation, but you know, basically drops or plummets or insulin all the way down. We don't get good conversion from Our thyroid hormone, and it puts more stress in our body because our body's saying, Hey, we need to find food we need to find food. So we want to rotate between those cycles. And if we're calorie restricted for too long, we're going to end up with lower levels of activity, three, higher levels of cortisol and hormone dysregulation that's going to end up taking place. So short term calorie restriction, you know, something like three to five days can be really beneficial for certain individuals. And if you're very lean, like somebody like myself, I'm you know, 8% body fat, I've got to be really careful with calorie restriction. I can do it on a day to day basis with intermittent fasting. And I can even do up to maybe a five day fast but beyond that be really really stressful on my system. Other people that have little bit more body fat. They've got you know, basically a larger bank to pull from. So for some of them, they can do a longer fast and get great results. But you do have to be careful. You have to be careful with that one. balance and utilizing the feast famine cycle appropriately.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And you're trying to obviously make sure if people are going into a fasting session, they don't have extreme thyroid or autoimmune or or massive adrenal issues, or they're kind of going into with a place of metabolic stability before they're jumping into that.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, very, that's very good point, you know, any sort of sudden dietary change, and that's a really big thing I harp on in this book, any sort of sudden dietary change your body really has to adapt to so your body wants a certain level of balance and homeostasis. And the more adrenally damaged you are, more adrenal dysfunction you have, the harder it is for you to adapt to any change. So if you haven't worked out, it's I mean, think about this example, if you haven't exercised and you go in and you do very long, intense workout with a trainer, you're going to be really sore for a few days, right? You're going to need a lot of recovery. You wouldn't want to go back the next day and do the same workout. Just kind of the same thing with fasting or anything else. The best way to do is kind of lean into it right? So I always tell people when it comes to fasting, start with a 12 hour overnight fast hydrate your body well in the morning, okay? And then once you get to that point, you feel good about that you push it up to 13 14 hours, right? So it's small gradual steps. And if you notice, at some point that your body's just not feeling great, back and down a little bit, okay, so there's different strategies you can do with applying intermittent fasting. It's really the same thing with a ketogenic diet, I talked about it in the book, if you're eating 400 grams of carbohydrates a day, don't all of a sudden the next day go down to 20 grams of carbohydrates, too much of a shock on the system. So you start gradually reducing, okay, and I give a formula for how to do that in the book. Right, how you gradually reduce and that's a gentle approach to keto adaptation that I find works for a lot of people.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great. That's great. Yeah, typically with patients that I recommend, and I don't really call it a keto I just call it I have a paleo template. That's kind of my foundation and then we go lower carb paleo, which is essentially going to be ketogenic once we go below 50 or 20 net carbs that kind of gets those ketones up. And then there can be moderate there can be autoimmune. There can be carnivore, carnivore is essentially a default keto, right. Yeah, yeah, hundred percent default. I find the big pitfalls with keto, just with people already having metabolic disturbances is number one, poor digestion. There's just biliary insufficiency, not enough enzymes, not enough acids. And then these foods have a really tough time being digested. What's your experience with that?
Dr. David Jockers: Oh, that's huge. In fact, you know, in the book, I talked about how, you know, working with people with a ketogenic diet over the years, I found that if I have three people, I put them on, you know, in general, roughly around 60% of the population will respond favorably to a ketogenic diet, but then you've got that other 30 to 40%. That just really, really struggles and oftentimes, it's due to the fact that they're not getting good bile release. Poor stomach acid. Poor bile release. Those things need to be addressed. I talked in detail about that in the book. I go through a lot of strategies to help improve stomach acid prove bile. I know you talk a lot about that in the show things like doing apple cider vinegar and water, drinking ginger tea throughout the day. I talked about some of the top herbs things like dandelion wrap radishes, I eat radishes almost every single day cucumbers. Celery really good for helping improve bile flow, thinning out the bile improving bile flow. You got things like artichoke another really, really good one for that. So adding in some of these great foods, artichokes, dandelions, rubella, things like that into your diet will help thin that bile and help improve the bile flow. And yeah, a lot of people have milestones so gallstones in their in their gallbladder, and a lot of people don't have their gallbladder and if you've had your gallbladder taken out, it's almost a guarantee that your liver the bile ducts in your liver because your livers what actually produces bile. gallbladder is just a storage component for-but the bile ducts in your liver most likely jammed up so you're getting very poor bile flow. So you're struggling with being able to emulsify and digest those fats and get the fat soluble nutrients, get a really flush those out and there are different strategies for flushing them out. Okay, different cleanses and things like that. And I even talked about one in the book. You can also do something as simple as taking activated charcoal, roughly about 30 minutes to an hour before you eat a meal. Okay, consuming a good you know, good quality meal and including some of those vegetables. I talked about artichokes, radishes, rubella, things like that help thin the bile flow. And then also taking some supplements like dandelion, bile salts like coline, things like that, that can really help with pushing out more bile and clearing of milestones so actually have a gallbladder or it's called a bile flush protocol in the book that utilizes charcoal because charcoal is a great binder for the gut. And it will bind bad bile and bile stones and help pull that stuff out of the system.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It will be a lot of toxins in the bile so it makes sense if your bile is being released into the small intestine, if there's a whole bunch of charcoal there, it'll kind of bind up a lot of the not so nice critters right and that's nice. Yep, in there. Yeah.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. And that's how you guys keeper SIBO, too, right. So a lot of people don't realize it. You know, we have an epidemic of bacterial overgrowth in our small intestine or so many people dealing with that. And bile is really important. Good bile flow is really important for sterilizing the small intestinal environment.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It is Yeah, like bile acids. acids tend to have a negative impact on on bad bacterial acids in general, right? probiotics, right? lactobacillus acidophilus means acid loving, right we look at yeast infections, right or bV. A lot of times the big connection with taking birth control pills why that that alkalizes thing people think alkalization is good. Well not necessarily can create Actually a more hospitable environment for bad stuff to grow. So yeah, having good biliary flow and obviously if someone doesn't have a gallbladder, you're gonna probably want them on bile salts for life. Right?
Dr. David Jockers: Absolutely. You got it.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, that makes sense. And you kind of you know, I've kind of see what you've done here with the book, you kind of disguise Keto with a whole bunch of other functional medicine topics like yes, like HPA access issues. Yeah, like digestion issues like SIBO like other issues that are connected to ketogenic diet. So this isn't just something that's just Hey, this is only for keto. You connect a lot of the other systems to it, which is really good because we know in functional medicine, it's like throwing a rock in the water, it ripples out and the ripples are all the other systems connected. So I thought you did a really good job connecting that.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, absolutely. You know, keto is great for addressing an issue with insulin resistance, which many people in our society have because food is so prevalent, we tend to eat a higher carbohydrate diet, obviously, in America, and so keto, it can be a great approach from that perspective, but it's only one tool in our tool belt. And we really have to look at the entire lifestyle and do a lot of different things that help address our response to stress, improve our digestive health, all the different things that we're talking about.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And you talk about the HPA access here. What are some of the big strategies that you use to kind of help calm down the HPA access and how does that help with a ketogenic diet? How does that dovetail with that?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, well, for sure. So with HPA axis, we really try to prioritize good sleep, rest and deep breathing. So if we are short, shallow breathing, which most of us are, our body thinks we're in a fight or flight state, so it thinks we're in danger. And so we've got to start to actually open up and take long deep breaths. Our body knows when we're taking a long deep breath, we're not in danger. We're not trying to run away from somebody with a spear or a lion or whatever it is chasing us. And so it knows we're in a relaxed state, and that's going to stimulate the part of our nervous system, parasympathetic nervous system which helps us relax and that's super Important so doing things like that. So deep breathing, really getting good high quality sleep, even taking a power nap if you need to in the mid afternoon, especially if you've got a stressful day or stressful, stressful life, that can be really important getting out and getting good sun exposure. So sun itself right can be really, really therapeutic for our body, grounding our body so going out barefoot on grass, dirt, sand, little harder this time of year. You know, but doing that as much as you can, that's actually going to help ground your electrical your basically your electromagnetic frequency. So there's a healthy EMF that comes from the ground. And that's almost like showering from all the artificial electromagnetic frequencies that come from our cell phone in our computer. So that and all of those EMF are putting a stress on our system. So just going out spending 10 minutes with your bare feet on grass, dirt, sand, even concrete, you'll get a healthy electromagnetic frequency which is again showering your electromagnetic field So these are all great strategies that are helpful. And a very, very important for a ketogenic diet because really with a ketogenic diet, just like anything, I mean, ultimately, you want your body to be very adaptive and resilient. And if you're not, if you're overwhelmed by stress, it's going to be really hard to adapt to that to get into ketosis. Okay? In fact, if you have higher amounts of cortisol, right, or different stress hormones are being released, that's going to keep your blood sugar elevated, right? cortisol is a glucocorticoid. So its job is to keep glucose elevated in the bloodstream, and then your body is going to respond to that by pumping out insulin and a lot of people will go through this cascade where high cortisol, high blood sugar, high insulin, they're even eating a meal, but they're metabolizing this just from the stored sugar in their liver, in their muscles, so we gotta keep the adrenal under control.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I like that. That makes a lot of sense. Now when people switch to a ketogenic template, and I like the Word template over diet because template allows flexibility. Some people who are more active can handle carbs at a significantly higher level than someone who's massively insulin resistant, they may only be able to handle a couple of servings of vegetables and that's it. Some can handle a handful of berries in there. Some can do a serving of safe starches. Everyone's a little bit different. But what should people stools look like? I know you did a whole page on this regarding the Bristol stool chart but with a fiber is coming in less. if let's say you're only eating a couple of servings of vegetables, what's what should your stools look like? And if they're on the more constipated side or loose side, what can we do about that?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, you want your stools to be well formed Brown, well formed and ideally, you know, easy to pass, right? So they should be very, very easy to pass. And you should be having one to maybe even up to four bowel movements a day right easy to pass comes out quickly. brown colored well forms shouldn't be like floating on the top should sink to the bottom. And if you're not noticing that if you do feel like you're constipated, and for some people, when they make Diet change. There's changes that take place in their microbiome that that can definitely cause constipation. So things that help really hydrating your body well is important. getting enough electrolytes. In fact, that's a huge issue with a ketogenic diet because when your insulin goes down so that when you eat if when you follow a ketogenic diet, it drops your insulin when your insulin goes down. You don't retain sodium. So, we in our, in our society, we hear about how we need you know, we need a low salt diet, but that's because most people are on a diet that's high in carbohydrates and they have high insulin. So again, when we drop our when we fast or we're gonna ketogenic diet, insulin goes down, we actually need more salt. Yep, and that's going to be important for good bowel movements can be very important for energy and very important for HPA axis, right? So taking in good salts, very important eating trace mineral rich foods, I really harp on that in the book. So that's gonna be things like sea vegetables, okay, seaweed, things like that wild caught fish, very rich and trace minerals, olives, olive oil. avocados, avocado oil, cruciferous vegetables, right, these are all great foods that we should be consuming on this sort of a diet to get the trace minerals that we need. You can also do things like magnesium supplementation, magnesium can really, really help with with improving bowel motility, right so just taking a little bit of magnesium can be a helpful approach and then hydrating your body well, right and I already mentioned that but most people are chronically dehydrated. So good hydration can really help with with good quality bowel movements.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We may have seen just getting even more fiber industry or more vegetables most people aren't getting enough vegetables. So as you said will help move. That's right.
Dr. David Jockers: That's right. Avocados are a great source of fiber, right tons of fiber, more more fiber in in an avocado than a bowl of oatmeal. Right So uh, so real good source.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That's really good, really good. And also, also avocados is like the highest source of potassium people think oh, like I do associate potassium than bananas. But guess what? avocados at twice the amount of traffic cm in their lower carbohydrate. So way better way to go. I like that. So when do you typically recommend, let's just say, a keto template with vegetables to a carnivore keto template? When does that switch happen? When we Why would you recommend it? Who would that person be? That would benefit from the keto version which just meat?
Dr. David Jockers: It really depends on the individual. So for some people, like here's a classic sign that you're not producing enough stomach acid, if you eat a steak, and you feel really fatigued, you have acid reflux, you feel nauseous, you feel like the foods sitting there in your stomach, okay? That's a sign that you're not producing enough stomach acid, we need to really really focus on the stomach acid, right? Other people respond great, they need a steak, they feel amazing, right? But if they eat a bowl of broccoli, okay, and you can do this test on yourself, eat a big bowl of broccoli, and if you're gassy, bloated, you have more pain in your body. You're having brain fog. That's a sign that you most likely have bacterial overgrowth In your small intestine, and you're probably not producing enough digestive enzymes. So we may need to address that, you just may notice that eating a more, you know, for one person eating more plant based, they feel better and another person eating more meat based or you know, pushing all the way to 100% carnivore, they just feel better in general. So it's kind of an experimentation, okay, but in general, if you isolate, you know, certain macronutrients and really just focus on consuming them in a meal and then see how your body responds or how you feel. That's one way to identify, again, big bowl of broccoli, you're pretty much just getting fiber there. Okay, and you'll see how your body responds to a healthy source of fiber. If you had a big steak, you're pretty much just getting, you know protein and fat there. So you're going to see how your body responds to that protein and fat. Okay, and then for other people, they notice when you know they eat an avocado, right, or all too much olive oil, right? They just feel really awful. That could be a sign that again, you're not getting enough bile flow. Right, yeah, so these are all ways to test.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good. I hear a lot of people you know, with that game changers documentary that's out and a lot of people just kind of talking about the vegan diet kind of comparing it to Keto. One thing I always tell people is animal products are incredibly nutrient dense. They're very nutrient dense when you compare the amount of protein Yeah, in let's say, some grass fed beef to let's say, some kale. People say oh kales like 20 or 30% protein, but that's based on calories, right? Yeah, that's based on a percentage of calorie-
Dr. David Jockers: Especially if it has a gram, you know, in a whole, and a whole bunch.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know. So I tell patients like okay, like, do you realize that eight ounces of grass fed meat right, which is probably a reasonable amount for a guy to go out and get access to when they go out and have a steak or filet right? You have to have 15 servings of kale. That's insane. That's a lot so you can easily have an eight ounce serving a grass fed meat and you know, eat that comfortably in 15 minutes. Good luck having 15 servings of Kale, so the nutrient density is just very high. And then once you add in some organ meat with that, it's like wow. And then, you know, obviously, you can, if you want to supercharge some of these things, there's some good vegetable juices that you can do that are just low sugar. I just do straight up celery juice with lemon every morning just because I get 25% of my potassium, throw another avocado and at lunch down that 50% of my potassium and just to two things, right? Because I think low potassium low magnesium is one of those things that everyone deals with even on keto could be an issue, right? But if you're getting 68 servings of green vegetables, and maybe you're slipping in some organ meats or things like that, then you're going to be on the right track. So where I was going with that was, um, the nutrient density part. Can you talk about, like the nutrient density in a keto template compared to just anything else?
Dr. David Jockers: Absolutely, well, if you're eating a real food based ketogenic diet, you're going to get tremendous amount of nutrient density and you you will always want to focus on the most nutrient dense foods so we look at grains in general, grains really don't offer as much- they have a little bit of B vitamins, some fiber and a whole lot of starch, right? And the problem is when we're eating things that elevate our blood sugar, okay, sugar itself in our system acts as an anti nutrient, right, we need a certain amount, but once we get beyond that, it acts more like an anti nutrient where it actually drains our magnesium, potassium, and the more insulin resistant we become. So the more that we're spiking our insulin, more insulin resistant we become, the less we're able to actually bring nutrients into cells because insulin has a very important job of bringing sugar as well as other nutrients like magnesium like potassium into cells. And so when we're not when we're insulin resistant, our body's not responding to it, we're gonna have problems. So grains in general are very, very, they're an inferior food, okay, as opposed to something like grass fed steak, okay, or organ meats, obviously really nutrient dense wild caught fish, and then plant based foods right so we can get obviously tremendous amount of nutrients from things like broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, different herbs. That we've already talked about dandelion ginger tumeric right so we can get tremendous amount of polyphenols, antioxidants, dark chocolate be another good one even, you know organic coffee or green tea. Tremendous amount of powerful nutrients to help quench oxidative stress and provide all the powerful nutrients we need. In fact, meat has vitamin B 12, zinc, iron, a lot of things people are very deficient in.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So how do you get someone to wrap this up? Because if they're like, Hey, I'm vegan and vegetarian, I can't do animal products, it becomes really hard. Now you could probably still do it and go keto plant based. But how would you get them on board with say, hey, let's try it. Let's get some of these high quality animal products. Well, what's that mindset shift? You would say to get them on board with that? Try it out?
Dr. David Jockers: Well yeah, I think it really depends on why they're doing it. If they're trying to do it for health purpose. I would just let them know that you know, basically, in a vegan diet, it's very hard to get all your fat soluble nutrients as well as vitamin B 12. So why don't we start, in fact I have a whole program called my cancer cleanse program where I put my cancer patients on a low protein, high fiber, high nutrients, ketogenic template, right and we use things like grass fed butter. Grass fed butter is a great thing because it's loaded super rich in fat soluble nutrients, retinol, vitamin E, conjugated linoleic acid, you have so much in there. And that's a great approach. So adding in some grass fed butter, maybe some eggs, okay, so eggs, again, super nutrient dense, especially the egg yolk. So you get so much nutrients, you know, per calorie, I guess you could say in egg yolk as well as in grass fed butter. So those are great things to add in and some people are okay with eating fish too, you know, so coming from that kind of vegetarian vegan diet. You know, a lot of people are okay with eating fish. So adding in some wild caught salmon, something along those lines and then just seeing how they feel when they add in those foods and for some people, I noticed that they do feel a lot better and then they're more open minded to continue mean other animal products as well.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Is there anything else you could do? Let's say, okay, like if you get the buy in with fish and egg yolks, at least or eggs, you're kind of gold, right? But what if you don't get the buy in for any animal products? Can it still get done? What does that strategy look like?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, there's actually a lot of people out there as a whole Facebook page on V and ketogenic diet. So you're obviously a lot, there's a lot more restriction. So you're really going to be eating the same, you know, 20 foods over and over and over again, but you still have all your non starchy vegetables, you're going to be eating a lot of avocados, coconut and coconut fats, nuts and seeds, hemp seeds, walnuts, pecans, macadamia nuts, things like that olives and olive oil. Okay, so it's gonna tend to be in the obviously you can supplement with a protein powder, you can get like a good pea protein, or hemp protein or you-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You probably need a protein powder though, right for the most part.
Dr. David Jockers: Especially if you're an athlete, I would say you know, if you're doing any sort of athletics or resistance training, you would definitely need to do it. I think you can do it. It for certain individuals, they can do it without a protein powder. But yeah, it's gonna be very low protein in general. And you're really just you're really banking on the fact that your body's got a good digestive system to be able to break down and pull whatever amino acids it can out of nuts, seeds, you know, avocados and other plants.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And the absorption that's gonna be lower just because of the anti nutrients and then the amino acid profile won't be as favorable right now. Right?
Dr. David Jockers: That's why I would definitely would recommend some sort of a good protein powder if you're doing that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And if you were to do one, would that be like the pea or anything else you'd recommend pea protein?
Dr. David Jockers: Probably depends on the individual. Some people most people do great on pea protein. Some people don't right so they can try hemp protein. That would be another good source. Okay. There's rice protein out there probably not as good as the pea and the hemp though.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Do you have to worry about any gluten or cross contamination coming from like a grain based protein at all?
Dr. David Jockers: You definitely could. Right and so For some people they do find on rice. Okay, other people, they, they, they have reactions to it right? Because there is gliadin. There are some gliadin compounds in rice, right. So even though it's considered gore's than me, it's still kind of in the same family.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That makes sense. And so you kind of have one argument, that's your elevator pitch on the health side. What about the other side, which is like, Hey, this is better for the environment, being vegans better for the environment? What's your pitch on that?
Dr. David Jockers: Well, actually, you know, actually having animals and raising them properly, is more of a sustainable system. So when we look at regenerative agriculture, what we actually need is, you know, we need chickens out there eating weeds, eating insects and things like that, and then they poop. Right? And then their poop actually fertilizes ground, right? Or if you have cows out there, they're going to eat the grass, they're going to poop. And now they've got this really nutrient dense poo, right and so that you know is now great for the worms and all the different insects who break it down further. And now it enriches the soil. Then the chickens come in, they go ahead, they eat the worms, right? And it's like this whole cycle and the original oil. Yeah, it's enriching the soil. So we need these animals and we need them grazing. Okay, obviously factory farm You and I are both very much against that. Yeah, that is not sustainable and unsustainable system. animals aren't treated well and their meat and dairy products are not healthy. But good pasture raised animal products. Good pasture raised animals actually help strengthen and add more nutrients to the soil. So we're growing other plants on the soil, those plants are healthier and better for our bodies.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and I'd also just add in is that when you start feeding animals grains and soy and corn, that's where you kind of have to have this open loop where you start to have to pull the poop away because now the E-coli, and but when you start to have this closed loop where Okay, you know, it's grass the whole time there's less e-coli than the chicken come in, and then they eat the worms and then that you kind of, you know, I think Joel Salatin kind of has that whole model down at polyface farm where it's, it's a total closed loop, you don't have to bring poop in and out moot, you know, it's just exactly much better. And also not to mention, most vegetarians are going to be most vegetarian food is going to be processed and carbohydrate. And then it's going to be primarily supporting a model culture where there's just a lot of different crops and, and things and a lot of pesticides used. And people forget, like, if you're supporting any type of monoculture, you're also supporting snakes and rabbits and little animals that are getting killed in the combine in the harvesting of that. So I always tell people, my mindset is it takes life to sustain life. Plants at some level are centi and have a life force because if they have to have a life force to sustain your life force they have to so at some level, they may not have a face or a cute mommy and daddy like an animal does. But number one, there's life there. Number two, just the model culture is also going to be killing lots of other animals that you may not see too. Directly or indirectly So yeah, I think it's good points.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, absolutely plus when you think about it animals their defense system is they can run or they can fight. plants use kind of a low level chemical warfare, right? So they have like lectins oxalates, different things like that yet or compounds within them, that can be hazardous or challenging for their their predators to consume. So like, for example, things like oxalates, which are crystals which in which, within things like spinach and dark chocolate and nuts and seeds, things like that, those oxalates can be really tough on the body. We normally we've adapted to have a certain bacteria oxalic factor from NGEs within our digestive system that eats these oxalates for us, so they don't get into our circulation and cause damage right because they can cause pain. oxalates are associated with pain. High oxalate loads are also associated with issues with our brain brain fog, learning issues, autism A lot of autistic kids have high levels of oxalates in their system. So what happens though is in our society, we've many people, you know, we've grown up drinking chlorinated water, for example, right, so we're not filtering out our water, chlorine kills these things. We've taken antibiotics where we've eaten meat that's been given antibiotics that has damaged the oxobacter species in our gut, and now we're not able to break down a metabolizers oxalates, then we think, Okay, I'm going to eat, you know, this plant based diet, we end up loading up on these oxalates we end up with chronic joint pain, where we're not able to focus and concentrate very effectively, we end up with kidney stones, different things like that. So you know, so there are pros and cons to eating meat and vegetables, and you really got to try to find the diet that works best for you. And that's what I really tried to focus on in the book was providing a diet that's going to work for most people and troubleshooting strategies. You know, basically to help people who are struggling to digest fats people are struggling with adrenal fatigue, thyroid things like that. So good doing a deep dive on all of that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it. That totally makes so much sense. So the oxido factor so really good healthy gut bacterial function, good healthy digestion, good bacteria and really help you deal with a lot of those plant anti nutrients even better. I love that very good. Now, when you're doing a fast, like let's say it's a 24 hour, 48 hour fast. What does that look like in regards to nutrients? Like, could I have some celery juice? Or could I have been drinking? Like, let's say it enriched Pellegrino with some extra minerals? How do you worrying about the electrolytes during the fast and then how much caloric drinks? Could you put in like a bone broth or or celebrate? Like, how much can you consume from that where you're still kind of fasting so to speak?
Dr. David Jockers: Well, I would say it depends on your goals, right? So one of the main goals of fasting, you know, there there are many different goals. So if your goal is to improve insulin resistance, okay, you can do a partial fast and you'll still get great results that a partial fast would be like drinking your celery juice. Doing your bone broth, right? Because basically you're keeping insulin low, right, and that's going to help improve insulin resistance can help improve and reduce inflammation in your body. So those are your main goals that can work great. They can also work great for weight loss if your goal is maximal ontology. And ontology is this term meaning self eating or your body's trying to break down old, damaged cellular components like mitochondria, damaged mitochondria and things like that. If that's your goal, then the ideal way to do it is a water fast or water salt fast, nothing with calories, okay? That's where you're going to get the most amount of autophagy doesn't mean you won't get any autopsy, you'll still get ontology. If you're drinking celery juice during your fast if you're on a caloric restriction. During that fast consuming roughly less than, you know, 40% of your normal calorie load, you're still going to activate some level of ontology, but the water fast is going to get you the most benefits. So I would really base it off of how you feel okay, so when I –
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Are you just drinking like reverse osmosis with some extra like Redmond real salt in there or are you doing like a Pellegrino is or kind of water that you're recommending?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, I mean absolutely a mineral water will be great you can do reverse osmosis add back some salts, I actually recently got a hydrogen water system and hydrogen molecular hydrogen is amazing for reducing oxidative stress in the system. So that's what I've been drinking here lately but but yeah, I mean just water, water and salts you know what happens is just like anything your body actually gets better and better at doing this. So like our ancestors when they fasted they weren't asking themselves food can I have you know, bulletproof coffee during my fast Can they do this? They just didn't have food, right? So they were just fast. So, for me when I first started doing intermittent fasting, okay 24 hour fast seemed too intimidating. So I would normally was doing somewhere on 18 to 20 hour fasts and that was very easy for me and I was drinking a lot of water During that period of time, and you know now that I've adapted because I actually do 2 24 hour fasts every single week, and I feel amazing doing it. I don't need I don't actually need salt. All I need is water. Now I'll put some apple cider vinegar in my water from time to time just for the added-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: When do you do your fast? So you're trying to choose a [inaudible]. Yeah.
Dr. David Jockers: So yeah, so they're basically I fast Wednesday from lunch till lunch on Thursday. And I fast usually on Saturday after lunch on Saturday to lunch on Sundays, typically when I'm fasting. Now it can range a little bit based on my schedule, but those are typically the times that I'm doing it. And yeah, I have absolutely no problem. So what happens is when you first begin doing it, it's a stressor on your system. Once you adapt to it, it's not as much of a stressor so actually do it like Wednesday is usually a very busy day for me. So I'm actually getting Doing it on a busier day and I noticed that my heart rate I have an aura ring. So I noticed that my heart rate variability is amazing. So good on the nights when I haven't eaten dinner, I fast through dinner, and I sleep deeper and I get just more sort of rest during that period of time.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You're also eating lunch on Wednesday so you really have enough nutrition because you probably had something in the morning you're hydrating. You had a probably a really nutrient dense lunch when you kicked off the fast Right.
Dr. David Jockers: Exactly. Right. So I had one meal, right roughly somewhere between one and two o'clock. I eat one meal.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Probably a bigger meal, right. Bigger thousand calories.
Dr. David Jockers: I'm sure yeah, yeah, usually I have a I have a protein shake with avocados. I put two avocados. Coconut milk. Wow. So that's Yeah, that's a ton of calories powder, you know, in in a shake and I have that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you got like, over 2000 milligrams of potassium. I mean, that's probably 80% fat, I mean, you well over 1000 calories, probably 1500 calories. Yeah. So that's the thing is when you do something like that your meals have to really be on purpose, you couldn't just have a half hazard, you know, process kind of meal, you really got to be on point, you're kicking that fast off with that ton of minerals, a ton of nutrient density, a ton of good fatty acids. And that kind of gives you momentum to go for the next 24 hours.
Dr. David Jockers: Exactly. It's a feast famine cycle. Now. It also depends on what somebody's health goals are, and how lean they are. Okay, I'm extremely lean. So when I eat, I need to feast. And what's interesting, Justin is with this lifestyle. I'm almost never hungry until I start eating. Okay, so like, I won't even be hungry on Thursday. Like I'll do a 24 hour fast. I'll workout right at the end of the fast typically. So I'll get an intense workout in fasting 22 23 hours, and I'm still not hungry, even at the end of that workout.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You're so loud and sensitive.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, but once I start eating Eating. Then my body's like, okay, I want food. Okay, bam. Oh, yeah, exactly. Now my insulin goes up now I'm like, Okay, now I need to eat, I need to eat food, right? And so that's really, you know, the kind of the natural mechanisms here. And so my body knows what it needs to do. So I'm just listening to my body's natural, you know, inclinations there. Now, for certain individuals, okay? Especially if you have more weight to lose, you're trying to lose more weight, okay, doing this sort of fasting can really help. And then cycling in, you know, a feast day oftentimes can be really helpful because, again, you want this counterbalance, you want to be telling your body, hey, food is prevalent, we don't need to stress out but at the same time, we're also in a famine, right? And we need to reduce inflammation. So it's kind of like this. We're constantly changing that message. And that will help the body to adapt more effectively. So feast and famine.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Can you have coffee on those fasting days?
Dr. David Jockers: I can. Yeah, you can. You can drink coffee. I was People with coffee. The key is this when you drink coffee, you should feel great. Okay, coffee should naturally be like a performance enhancement tool. Yeah. And coffee itself caffeine and the cafe and Chlorogenic Acid that's in coffee, enhance autophagy mechanisms. However, there is a percentage of people that have a food sensitivity. They have a sense immune reaction to coffee. Or they, they just don't metabolize caffeine. Well, exactly. Yeah. Those people if you don't feel good, right, you notice heart palpitations, you notice like worsening fatigue A few hours later or they are gives you cravings, then it's not good for you. Okay, so then you want to avoid it. So that's the rule with coffee. If you drink a cup of coffee, you feel amazing. The rest of the day. It just set you off. Drink Coffee. You know what I mean? And if you drink coffee and you didn't feel good, don't drink coffee.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good. Dr. David, my man. Yeah, the Keto Metabolic Breakthrough y'all. Feel free, we'll put the links down below. that you guys can get access to a phenomenal book. David, anything else you want to leave listeners with?
Dr. David Jockers: You know, I think I think you guys will love the book. You know, it's I talk a lot about nutrient timing carb cycling, which is, you know, because there's a time and place for carbs like just like we've talked about in the past. So when to do it when you should add in carbs, how to set up a carb cycling strategy is a big component of what I talked about in the book, how to appropriately do intermittent fasting and get the best results. I talked a lot about hormones, thyroid hormone, insulin, sex hormones, different things like that, how to balance it all with the book. So definitely check that out. And you know, those of you guys are listening to Justin's YouTube channel and podcasts, you guys are getting the best of the best here. I always like to tune in and hear what Justin's doing because he's on top of his game.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Dr. Jockers I really appreciate it. I'm going to do a like a little video book review of your book, how to hit my favorite three to five topics in the book, we'll do a video out so people want to get that, get access to that. Feel free, make sure you subscribe and then we'll put the link down below on Amazon so people can can grab it and find it and, and support David, he's got some great work out there. We really appreciate, you know, this book. It's really amazing all the good infographics, I mean, I'm just skimming through here and I'm just like, well, I could just kind of look at some of the infographics and barely even read it and I can still get a ton of great information just by skimming it, you did a really good job making it very consolidate and easy to digest.
Dr. David Jockers: Appreciate that, I mean, that's really what we try to do is I'm a very visual learner. So I enjoy reading but I also enjoy seeing infographics and so I wanted to create this book for somebody like me that really likes to see diagrams, infographics, things like that, that really set the really helped you understand it and and be able to picture the concepts I'm talking about.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, great job, man. Keep it up. Dr. David, you have an awesome day, man.
Dr. David Jockers: We'll chat soon. Thanks, you too, man. Bye.