Evan Brand – Joint Pain and Bone Health – Podcast #141


Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand, are globally recognized leaders in the field of ancestral health, holistic nutrition, and functional medicine. In today’s talk they address the causes and symptoms of joint pain.  

Watch as these two leading functional experts help you improve your pain and support your bodies ability to heal itself naturally. 

Joint Pain

In this episode, we will cover:

00:35 Pathophysiology Regarding Joint Issues

05:39 Stomach Acid with Age and Joint Pain

13:46 Adrenal Issues, Infections and Joint Pain.

19:48 Topical Alternatives and Exercise

32:53 Pharma and Media Over Chiropractic Physiology







Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we are live on Facebook and YouTube. People that are on Facebook, feel free. We’ll put a link below to the live back and forth conversation – the  uhh– YouTube so you can actually see Evan’s pretty face. And, let’s begin Evan. How are you doing, man?

Evan Brand: Pretty good. Good morning.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Good morning to you.

Evan Brand: Yes, sir. So, you mentioned joint pain uhh– or I mentioned joint pain. You said, “Okay. Let’s hit it.” This is a fun one. We could go many, many directions. Where do you want to start with joint pain?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So, let’s kind’a talk about the kind of the pathophysiology regarding joint issues. So, the couple underlying causes, right? Joint issues, typically, can be caused by a wear and tear, and that wear and tear can be excess of exercise-induced. It can be excessive or not enough building blocks to help your body heal and recover, so you’re providing a stimulus. That stimulus is exercise. Exercise causes your body to break down, and then your body then shifts at night and goes anabolic to heal back up. And if you don’t have uhh– building blocks on board: nutrition, protein, amino acids, Collagen, you’re not gonna have that piece building back up as much. Uhh – number three is going to be chemical, so a lot of joint issues these days are gonna be autoimmune in nature. So, the more we have gluten in our diet, the more we have inflammation in our diet. We can actually start breaking down our tissue via autoimmune mechanisms. It has a couple different ways that our joints can be affected. Again, wear and tear, lack of nutrition, as well as, number three is gonna be an autoimmune that’s affecting how the bodies attacking itself and then breaking itself down, not via stress, like exercise stress, but internal chemical immune stress.

Evan Brand: So what do you– what’s your– what’s your coment when someone says, “Oh, I’m just getting old, that’s why my joints hurt.” What do you say to that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, it’s a cup-out, right? People say that they’re getting old and that’s the reason why their issues, because what does age do? Age magnifies bad habits, okay? Now obviously, at some point, a 90-year old’s not gonna be the same as a 20-years old, but there are lots of people who have gotten into their 50’s, and 60’s, and 70’s. You know if they were unhealthy in their 30’s and 40’s, actually, they become healthier and healthier. There’s lots of examples of that. Jack Lalanne for one. There’s lots of healthy people that are– have really taken care of themselves and pushed themselves up to the next level that have made the big difference, but age magnifies bad habits. Also, all stress summates and accumulates, right? This is called allostatic load. So, we have, like, a metaphorical stress bucket, right? This is my little coffee mug. All your little stress balls go into that bucket, right? Those stress balls could be gluten. They could be poor sleep. They could be work stress. They could be uhhmm– low dreanal levels, hypothyroidism, leaky gut, low stomach acid, malabsorption – all these things could be present, regarding kind of your allostatic load. And when these little stress balls overflow, this is where your body starts to break down and symptoms occur. So, the goal is, we’re trying to, number one, make our stress bucket bigger, right? We do that after healthy diet and lifestyle. And then we also remove the stressors as well. Removing the stressors, warding the bad foods, having the healthy lifestyle and diet habits. Those are gonna be really important to start with. What do you think?

Evan Brand: Yeah, well– and we know that stomach acid, which we’ve loved talking about, stomach acid, drops with age, so it could say…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [inaudible]

Evan Brand: You could say that, yes, age, technically, could lead to joint pain if it’s gonna leave the malabsorption issues. So, we do have to supplement with HCL. I think that is an important part of joint pain. And preventing that, as you get older, you gotta make sure you’re actually getting your amino acids, and your glycine, and your cysteine, and your proline, and all these other things that you get from food. And specially, if you’re doing like a bone broth, I think that could be a good strategy, too, if you’re aging; even if you’re not aging. I drink bone broth, in some shape or form, on a weekly basis. So you’ve gotta make sure you’re getting the raw materials ‘cause no matter how good the diet is, if you can’t absorb anything, it’s just a waste of money. And, then obviously, there’s other issues too, I mean, we have mentioned infections for example. I mean, you and I discussed this a couple of years ago when my wife was having migraine and joint pain throughout her wrist and ankles and elbows and all that, and she had mycoplasma pneumonia infection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We found that. We found that on a comprehensive infection panel, we found mycoplasma. Mycoplasma’s a really big driver, potentially of arthritic issues or dermato-arthritis. It can affect, you know, the immune system, and it can also go after the joints. And those antibiotics, like Minocycline, Nutricap, but we use some herbal formula. We use Rishi, Cat’s Claw and a couple of other herbal formula to help knock it out. And with then a month or two, she was much better with the joint issue, wasn’t she?

Evan Brand: Oh, yeah. I mean…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: …she was waking up. For example, she was 25 at the time. She was waking up just for folks listening, and putting on her bracelet, or putting on a watch…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [inaudible]

Evan Brand: …was causing pretty severe pain. Now, luckily, we look in– we look for lime, and we did not find lime. So, that’s good but that could be tighten with that, because sometimes, you’re gonna get a lime infection, and you’re gonna get the mycoplasma or other issues. So, you’ve gotta rule in or rule out infections, too? Now that’s something. To me, it’s– I wouldn’t say it’s rare, but it’s less common than other issues like malabsorption, parasite issues, bacterial problems that are gonna cause more joint pain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. I’m adding it right here live ‘cause we are just, like, functional medicine improv so– and everyone know the topic is joint pain of today, in case that people came in late. So we’re talking about joint pain. So, I agree, right? You mentioned the stomach acid thing. Dr. Jonathan Wrights talked about these too. Stomach acid goes down as you age. Now again, stress also affects stomach acid, right? Diet’s gonna affect stomach acid. The more inflammatory your food is, the more that’s gonna affect how your body makes stomach acid. When you have low stomach acid, you have low enzymes. Now, people forget, to make healthy bones, what do you need? Half your bones. What? Half your bone’s protein, the other half of your bone’s gonna be about 13 different minerals. The most common that everyone knows is gonna be calcium, right? But again, protein’s half of that bone, so we can’t breakdown healthy protein sources, we’re really gonna have a hard time producing healthy bone and keeping ourselves in a kind of equilibrium regarding our calcium deposit levels, which is uhh- mineral levels in the bone. So, healthy protein’s really important. The other half’s gonna be minerals. This is where the mineral’s really important. Now with the minerals, we also need healthy stomach acid levels because we need ionized minerals to happen. We ionized minerals are nothing more than Hydrochloric acid hitting that mineral and then ionize it, which means it can kind of uhhmm– infiltrate or kind of be uhhmm– kind of go into a soluble state in the blood. So it can be transferred, and absorbed, and utilized by the body. If it’s no ionized, it’s just kind of like a rock, you gotta break that rock down so it can be utilized in its constituents. So hydrochloric acid’s important for the protein aspect of the bone, but it’s also important for the ionization of those minerals that make up the other half. And again, the most common ones gonna be Calcium, but there are other ones there as well.

Evan Brand: So, let’s chat about the conventional approach to joint pain. Most of the time, if you have joint pain, let’s say you go into the doctor’s office, or for example, like me when I was working at UPS in College, I hurt my back. I went to their doctor, and they said, “Oh! Here’s a strong NSAID and here’s a muscle relaxer. Good luck.” And this is what’s gonna happen. You’re gonna get Tylenol. You’re gonna get some type of over-the-counter medication, that’s got, potentially, some very serious side effects. I mean, there’s what? You and discussed this number before: 18, 000 people dying a year from just standard dose of– Is it Aspirin? Was it Advil? Which one was it?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think it’s Prolifen. Yeah. That’s new in general medicine 1999. Well, fed out 19,900 die a year of Ibuprofen taken properly.

Evan Brand: So, we’ve got kidney, we’ve got liver damage that could occur from all of this. And once again, it’s not gonna address the root cause so then if you get into the more joint pain issue, you could potentially get into pain killers. I’ve had many female clients that, whether it was autoimmune in nature or not, they were killing with joint pain, and the doctor ends up putting them on some type of Opioid. I had a…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: …[inaudible] actually last week, who was on uhh– What’s it called? Hydrocodone. Like 15 milligrams of Hydrocodone, and I’ve got five milligrams after that major triple molar surgery. So, she’s on triple the amount of that. Oh, my Lord!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah the conventional modalities for joint issues really aren’t good, so number one, there’s treating the symptoms – so that’s the pain. So, you’re gonna have drugs like your Ibuprofen. You maybe even have more severe drugs, like your Cox-2 inhibitors, like Vioxx, etc. What these do is these affect the cyclooxygenase enzymes, which are enzymes that help with pain  – that help convert that pain signal to the brain. But they also help with gut lining, stomach lining, heart issues. So, we don’t have that healthy enzyme, we can’t build healthy heart and healthy gut lining, and then it also create a lot of stress in the liver, and it can even reduce Glutathione levels. So when we’re taking in medications, like an Ibuprofen, for instance, we’re gonna be reducing Glutathione.  Now Aspirin tends to be a little– baby Aspirin tends to be a little safer. Much better off using herbs that tend to have a modulatory effect and uhh– essentially, aren’t gonna de– or downregulate, deregulate your detoxification halfways via Glutathione. So that’s kind of one aspect. The next is you have your Corticosteroid medications, so when it becomes more painful, right? Prednisone Corticosteroids, which actually will increase Osteoclastic activity. Little Osteoclast break down the bones; osteoblast build up. So, B for blast equals builder, C for clast is breaking down, right? Think of catabolic. Is C for clast is catabolic. It’s breaking down. So again, those medications, those steroid types of medications are actually gonna make the problem worse. Again, they work rate on the actual symptom in the moments but they’re not gonna be the best for fixing the underlying issue. And then the last– we talked about ane, two, three. This is the third one. As we had medications like Boniva or Fosamax, which will increase Osteoblastic activity. The problem is it turn and does it in a haphazard form, so you get more thickening the bone but you don’t have it in a strengthening kind of tensile alignment. So, you have more bone but the bone is weaker. And it get knows the big issue down in Florida a few years back or [swallowed] these dentists were seeing kind of people’s jawbone’s like rotting; like they were doing dental work and they were going in there to like, you know, address some of the tooth issues beyond the jaw, and it was just– the jaw was just crumbling away with some of these elderly patients that were on these medications. So again, big problems there because the goal wasn’t just to have thicker bones. The goal was to have thicker stronger functional bones that you can actually, you know, put stress on and create a healthy lifestyle by walking, and hiking, and doing all the things that you want in your life.

Evan Brand: That is unbelievable. So, that– those drugs were just destroying people. They were just whittling away.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. Yep, hundred percent.

Evan Brand: Holy smokes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [agrees]

Evan Brand: Now uhhmm– I– we should also mention Vitamin D too, right? Because, we’ve got this connection with Vitamin D, and we’ve got Vitamin K -the interaction there; we’ve got Calcium regulation with that, so you really, really, really, really want to have optimum Vitamin D levels, especially if you’ve had any history of Osteoarthritis. Because, if you’ve got Vitamin D levels that are low, there’s tons of research linking that so you’ve got to have it, I say minimum 60 but you know, we could say up to what? Eighty (80) maybe, in some cases, is okay for Vitamin D?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I would say, even up to a hundred if you have an autoimmune issue. I’d say 50 to a hundred, and 50 would be kind of be okay if you don’t have an active autoimmune issue; up to a hundred if you have an active autoimmune issue for sure.

Evan Brand: Okay. And did you want to mention anything about that, like why Vitamin D is so important?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, Vitamin D. What it’s gonna do is it’s going to increase the absorption of Phosphorus and Calcium, which are important building blocks – mineral building blocks for the bone.  When pipe[12:12] Vitamin D is higher, what it does is it decreases Phosphorus excretion and it increases Calcium absorption up to 200 percent. So Vitamin D helps– Vitamin D helps Calcium go from the gut into the blood – the bloodstream.

Evan Brand: You know what’s cool?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …[crosstalk] blodstream that could make you go around. Go ahead.

Evan Brand: You know, I was gonna say, “You know what’s cool is that the very bottom of the organic acids, the Phosphoric acid number, most of the time if I see that low number 75 on there, if somebody happen to have the [inaudible] doing, like 99 percent of the time; low phosphoric acid on there, correlates with low Vitamin D.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. [crosstalk] Makes sense.

Evan Brand: [inaudible] …cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Vitamin D works on Phosphorus absorption and Calcium absorption. That totally makes sense. Now, if we keep on diving into uhhmm– hormones are really important, especially if you’re a female and you’re in that menopausal age, estrogen and progesterone are really important for building healthy bones. Progesterone helps with the Osteoblastic activity, that’s the builders, and helps in– estrogen helps with Osteoclastic activity. C for clastic equals C for catabolically breaking down. We need a healthy bit because if we don’t, if we don’t break down all bone and put new bone back, we don’t have healthy strong bone there. So, there needs to be this balance of– of give and take, push and pull, break down, build up. It’s happening in the body, so we have hormones having major impact on it. So, if you’re female and you’re Estrogen Dominant, or if you’re menopausal female, and then your ovaries aren’t really working as well and you’re relying more on your adrenals and you’re Estrogen Dominant, or your hormones are just low altogether, we need healthy hormones to help build bones as well.

Evan Brand: Got it. So, if you’ve got infections, therefore, you probably got some adrenal problems, you could potentially have some issues on joint pain just based on that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And if you have infection, that will affect malabsorption, leaky gut, and if you have a mycoplasma infection, right, like your wife did, that could create that autoimmune kind of molecular mimicry thing going on that kind of mimics array of rheumatoid arthritis, which is joint pain, which is typically bilateral presentation. It happens on both sides where Osteoarthritis, which is the wear and tear thing we mentioned, that typically happens unilateral, one side or the other, so array both sides of the body – both hips, both knees, where Osteoarthritis is kind of a more wear and tear. We tend to be more unilateral; one side only.

Evan Brand: Uhh– Well said, yeah. And people listen with like a relaxed ear, and told this actually affects you, and then, you’re gonna be listening frantically to this. But, when that hit my wife, I mean, it happened quick. I told you, it was over like a week, like one day she woke up and then boom! There was a joint pain, and it was just intense. So, this– this stuff is real, and it could hit in an unexpected time, and you got to know what root causes can you look for. So, you…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely.

Evan Brand: You were super helpful. You’re like, “Man, look. We’ve got to get this– this test here. It’s byco-infections.” Boom! You were spot on, once again.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and we called it, man. I was so happy to see that.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So let’s uhhmm– let’s hit on a couple of other questions here, ‘cause I think they’re really pertinent to the conversation. So, a couple of things regarding exercise. Exercise creates a piezoelectric effect, which basically creates a magnet for Calcium attached into the bone. So exercise is helpful, but if you already have Osteoporosis, you got to be careful because it’s a wear and tear thing that’s happening, where you may create more wear from the exercise and not get enough build back up from the Calcium in that piezoelectric effect. So, you got to make sure the hormones and the nutrition and the extra building blocks are there to help that Calcium and those minerals take effect. So, Collagen’s gonna be super important. When there’s Osteoporosis, 60 to 80 grams a day, daily. Uhhmm– Calcium, I mean, if there are female, for sure, it just regularly, typically, we’ll recommend a couple hundred micrograms, like a Calcium malate and a good quality multi. If there’s a bulding block issue, we’ll give some extra Calcium, for sure. Uhhm– we’ll also make sure there’s Vitamin K2 along with that. We’ll also make sure there’s a Magnesium along with that, as well. Strontium’s also good uhhmm – so, those are really important. We’ll modulate estrogen levels and progesterone, but that’s gonna be specific to the patient. And then, after that, uhhmm– natural things to help reduce inflammation. Fish oils gonna be great. You know, up to eight to ten grams a day’s gonna be fine. We just have to make sure it’s high quality fish oil, in a triglyceride form. Then we take some extra antioxidant so we can stabilize the cell membrane. So, we don’t get lipid peroxidation. Lipid peroxidation is, basically, fish oil to polyunsaturated fat. Polyunsaturated fats can go unoxidized very easily, because they have a double bond between the two Carbons. Double bond makes fat more unstable. Whereas, saturated fat has all of the Hydrogens attached to the Carbon in single bonds. So, this is just, you know, Organic Chemistry 101. More single bonds equal more stable fat. More double bond in between the Carbons equal a more unstable fat, and it can oxidize easier. So, we take in  extra Vitamin C, or extra Vitamin E, or extra Curcumin to help stabilize those uhhmm– those polyunsaturated fats getting in there.

Evan Brand: So, somebody smells their fish oil. It’s very smelly. Let’s say, it’s uhh– inferior ethel estro form can we assume that that’s gonna be creating more oxidation there. There’ll all got to be taking like a fully oxidized fish oil, therefore making the problem even worse.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So, we want to make sure it’s a triglyceride form. A lot of fish oils, like my Omega-3 Supreme actually has Lipase in it because we kind of make the assumption that most people were seeing have compromised digestion. SO we want to ensure that that fat is getting broken down optimally. And, you know, we’ll ups some antioxidant so meili we’ll give some Vitamin C synergy or Curcumin Supreme to help provide stabilization of the cell membrane.

Evan Brand: Perfect. There was a question about Vitamin K. We mentioned it already but they were hearing that the Calcium, Vitamin D and Vitamin K should be taken together. I personally, unless it’s in a blend of something, I personally never use Calcium, but the Vitamin D and K, I do use. I use a liquid for that. Vitamin D plus K – K1, [crosstalk] K2.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. [crosstalk] Yeah. I don’t use it, by itself. It’s gonna be in a blend for the most part. But with my female menopausal patients or patients that have severe Osteoporosis, a product they use, called Osteoben, has a lot of that in there, combined. That works very well.

Evan Brand: It’s good. I’ve used that one, and then also, I’ve used the– I believe it’s called Arthroben too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, well.

Evan Brand: [inaudible]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. That’s the Collagen peptides. In meili, I use the true Collagen, which is similar.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhhmm– which again, we go up to 60 to 80 grams, which is about, like, four to six scoops a day, to really get the building blocks up there for sure.

Evan Brand: That’s a lot of Collagen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It is. Yeah. It’s about, yeah– I mean, it’s what it takes to build those bones up. You know, try to give a bail uhh– ‘cause they’ve been in debt for so long.

Evan Brand: Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: But it can, you know, on an average, typically, one  to two scoops, ten to 20 grams, just for like hair and skin and nails, and healthy joints is fine, as a preventative dose.

Evan Brand: For sure, uhhmm– if you wanted to hit another question, but I didn’t want to mention, there’s also topical relief, too, for joint pain. So, there’s a couple different creams that I use. The ArthroSoothe Cream; it’s really good. It’s got like the peppermint essential oil in there. It’s got the MSM. It’s got the White Willow Bark. It’s got the – I believe it’s got the Capsium in there too. Maybe a little bit of Tea Tree. And, there’s actually– I think it’s called Celadon, or something like that. There’s some type of patented ingredient in there, where they’ve actually studied it and they found that people had increased joint mobility with it. So I use that cream. My grandmother uses it after she gets home or before she goes to play Tennis, and she’s noticed bry 20 to 30 percent improvement. So, that’s just from the topical perspective. Now, obviously, you still got to do the other work – working on yourself, internally: ruling in things, ruling out things with infections and such. But, there’s topical solutions, too, right? There’s not gonna be one silver bullet. It’s gonna be just the combination of all these stuff in your toolbox, which what we’re hoping to build up with here today.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, topical things we can also do is gonna be Frankincense essential oil. It’s great. Or the same version Boswellia, which is basically, Frankincense in a capsule form, which is the herb. And you could take that internally. Curcumin; we use light ReSoMal Curcumin or Curcumin Supreme. Uhhmm– systemic-based enzymes, taken on an empty stomach, like zero peptidase, can also help with inflammation too. If it’s acute inflammation, how did it happen? Did it happen because you ate Gluten or some inflammatory food? And that’s a chemical reagent. And we have the just– you know, do the things that help cool down the gut and get the Gluten dissolved. If it’s an exercise-based thing, again, make sure your form’s really well. A lot of people– I was a personal trainer for, like, five years. A lot of people have crappy form when it comes to squatting, lunging, death leaps, or in their arm wrap cycle of their Crossfit Workout. They just do very– you know, they– their form just goes to hel– in a hand basket, right? They push themselves to failure too much, where their form breaks down, and their technique isn’t good. They’re not having perfect wraps. So, really making sure those functional movements are stronger. And a lot of people, they’re exercising on machines, and machines work too two-dimensionally. And the problem is, in the real world, we perform three dimensionally, so you don’t build the stabilization units. You don’t have all the stability module that’s three-dimensional when you work on machines, so a lot of people, essentially, develop these big stupid muscles that don’t necessarily work optimally in the real world.

Evan Brand: Agreed. Yeah. So, I injured myself on a Shoulder Press Machine, because what had happened is I tried to go too heavy with dumbbells. So, once I went too heavy, which is already the first mistake. This is when I was quite 19. Went to heavy with dumbbells, so then I switched to the Shoulder Press Machine, because it allowed me to lift more weight. But that’s a tiny little muscle. Your little three different shoulder muscles there, that’s a small muscle. It didn’t need to be hit with a hundred and a hundred and twenty pounds like I was hitting it with. And so, I’ve learned my lesson, and now I just do free weights with it, and I feel much, much better. So the pain that I was experiencing there is gone, and that was uhh–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: …all physically-induced.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep. Absoultely and a lot of people running, for instance, long distance, kind of like your LSD training– Long Slow Distance Training is really gonna be probably one of the worst things for you because it’s just that repetitive. You know, compression movement over and over again, over and over again. And essentially, those movements are gonna really increase Cortisol levels so then that creates more of that Catabolic Effect, where you’re breaking down more of that bone. And then also, running form uhhmm– one of the listeners here, put him to chat. Form’s really important when you run, a lot of people had bad running form. A couple of reasons why, I worked in a Biomechanics Lab at UMass in College Undergrad and with these, like, different Compression Force Plates, and people will run over the Force Plates and we’d see how force is displaced. Now, a lot of people are heel strikers. So, when you’re a heel striker, what you’re doing is you’re hitting the ground, you’re hitting the break, and then rolling over mid strike, and then going forward again. So, it’s like break-gas, break-gas, break-gas. So, the whole goal is, if you can dial-in your strike so you can at least be mid to front foot strike, you can have the effect of running downhill. So really important is go one line and make sure your form is great when it comes to running. You should have a slight lean, and you should be striding so you’re hitting to that front half of the foot, not the back half of the foot. ‘Cause that’s gonna increase compression forces, which is gonna cause more of that wear and tear in that Catabolic Hormone Effect, and break down more of that tissue.

Evan Brand: Yeah, well, and you also want to make sure that you’re using Zero Drop Shoe. Uhh– if you have followed the work, which I’m sure our listeners have, about Marxism, Mark’s Daily Apple or Dr. Mercola. They both were endurance runners. They both did running so much in their life, and [crosstalk] they destroyed themselves, and they’re very, very anti long distance running now. You can read about that, but a Zero Drop Shoe, for me, was a game changer, because a lot of people– you know, pry more about this from a structural standpoint than me, but with a big heel on someone’s shoe, you’re gonna be basically always flexing that calf muscle, and then you’re messing up your hamstring, and then you’re messing up your low back. It’s like the whole chain gets put off. I have the guy– I’m trying to think of his name now. If he typed in like Podiatrist, not just Paleo; you’d find it. But I had a…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Evan Brand: … a foot doctor on this show, and he talked about how bad a shoe that’s not Zero Drop is for you, and really that’s one of the big issues that can lead to Bunions and all sorts of, like, foot problems. Is the drop of your shoe, which obviously could create joint pain, too. Back pain, hip pain, knee pain, etc., and once I ditched my other shoes and I went to, like, a barefoot shoe, like a Vibram, where I’ve actually got some, like, Zero Drop Boots that I’ve been hiking in. Man, I feel so much better. No more low back pain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think that’s huge. Also, Chiropractic here, I think, is essential, because joints need movement, and if we have, like, some books say, they’re stuck joints in the spinal column, right, that’s gonna create inflammation. And again, what’s gonna happen, too, is the brain and the spine– the brain, the spine and the muscle communicate via movements. And if we have subluxation, where the joints are not aligned properly, or they’re fixated, they’re not moving properly, we have poor communication from the brain to the joints. So, again, we can help communication via exercise, but again, therapeutically, healthy Chiropractic adjustments specific are gonna be super helpful. Also, if your distance running, making sure your feet are moving properly. There are 26 bones in your feet, and if they aren’t moving properly, how you displace force is gonna be severely impaired. So you got to make sure that part’s dialed-in.

Evan Brand: I wanna mention the running surface that you’re on too, now that we’ve kind of gone on this– this other topic. I hate running on concrete. It’s terrible. You’re not designed to run on hard concrete with rubber-insulated shoes. So…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: …for me, obviously best-case scenario, which our ancestors do and still do. Hunter gathers today, has their bare foot in dirt. But if you’re in Austin or somewhere, and you have no idea what’s on that trail, some might could had dropped the razor, or a piece of glass, or something, obviously, you don’t want to, you know, get yourself caught up with that, but, you know, bare foot’s gonna be the best, or close to bare foot. And then, natural surfaces, so grass, their leaves, sticks, you know, a pine needles – those surfaces are way better for you than, like, running on asphalt, or even worse, running on a treadmill. So, you’ve really got to zoom out and look at yourself from a third-person perspective. With your great, great, great, great grandfather if they saw what you were doing, well they’ll say, “What the hell are you doing, and why are you doing that?” If so, then, maybe you need to reevaluate what you’re doing and calling it exercise.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I tottaly agree, so making sure you have the right exercise dialed-in, the right form dialed-in, whether it’s running, or whether it’s lifting, or resistance training, you know, good Chiropractor, a good massage therapist on board to help, for sure, uhhmm– making sure the metabolic stuff dialed-in, right? Diabetes and Insulin Resistance will also create inflammation and increase your chance of uhhmm– bone issues, as well. Hormone issues, adrenal issues, low stomach acid, low enzyme physiology infections, the infection connection we see of mycoplasma and other parasites that can create malabsorption – anything else, we missed, Evan? I think we hit everything pretty well. Oh! Also, instantaneous pain relief, too, which can be helpful but again, you got to make sure you’re addressing the root cause. So, we talk about palliative things. It has to be dawned in the context of, “Hey, we’re doing this thing. It works to help cut pain fast. But we’re also fixing the root cause over here. That can also be Cryotherapy.

Evan Brand: Yeah, Cryotherapy. I heard a lot of good– a lot of good stuff about that. Actually, a client of mine, now in California, she went to the place where Joe Rogan was at, and she was like, “I got to meet Joe Rogan in person. He was at the CryoStudio, so I knew I was in the right one.”, I was like, “Yeah, that’s cool. Uhhmm– also, CBD oil too. So, it depends on what state you’re in. Obviously, if you are in legal Cannabis state. You can get CBD-THC blends because the THC is gonna work much better. But if you’re in the other states, where only CBD is legal, then you can look into, you know, like a liposomal but just a regular Cannabis oil. And if you hit like a five-, ten- or 15-milligram doses CBD. Uhh– I’ve got a female who, she’s in her 70’s and she wants to nget back to riding horses, and she had all these hip pain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: She brought in the CBD. She felt better. So, obviously, like, for dosing and for specific brand and stuff, you have to reach out to someone uhh– like Justin and me, but that is another option. That could be over-the-counter available, an then there’s also if you get like a medical card, you can go get stronger versions that would have THC in there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And then, last but not the least, too, is making sure your muscles are activated. This is kind of uhh– it may fly on people’s heads but, again, like– As a Chiropractor, you know, I use to be doing a lot of adjusting, which is helpful for getting the joints moving. But also, when I was doing more of that type of work, I was looking at muscle activation, so I would go through TOT and TAS – all of the different muscles. So, I mean, I’ve had experiences where I was working on uhhmm– Olympic level athletes, gold medal sprinters, and we’ll test their hip flexors and just nothing will be on. Like it will just be like, “Pffffft!” Turned off. From a neurological facilitations standpoint, it was just totally inhibited. So, we weren’t getting optimal nerve stimulation. I’ve tested NFL athletes, as well. If we don’t have those muscles turned on, muscles are your natural shock absorbers, so there are so many people out there that don’t have their muscles and those shocks on. So that force goes into sensitive soft tissue – vascular structure. A vasculars– if they weren’t for lacking blood flow. So, when they break down and they get inflamed, they’re so hard to heal because you don’t have that good blood’s flow, bringing Oxygen, nutrition, and pulling the inflammation out. So making sure the muscles are turned on, and get a good Applied Kinesiology Chiropractor. I’ll give a shout-out to uhhmm– Garrett Salpeter at (neufitdot) neufit.– (neudotfit) neu.fit over in Austin. He has some great services there were. Uses the ARP wave, of his newbie in the uhhmm– Applied Kinesiology type of work. To help make sure those muscles turn back on. That works great.

Evan Brand: So how did the muscles turn off?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: They’re gonna turn off because of stress, because of inflammation, uhh– because of adhesions or trigger points in the muscle belly, because of poor biomechanics, because of inflammation, because of poor lifestyle habits, inflammation tends to shut everything down over time.

Evan Brand: Remember when I was over at your house, you hooked me up to the ARP Wave?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Evan Brand: That thing was intense.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Yeah. That thing’s really awesome, because it’s basically inflammation detector, so we can go in there. We can basically shock that inflammation, reduce the inflammation by driving in blood flow. We can also create more efficient neurological patterns by doing correct movements. And then also, adjusting the joint, which provides more mechanoreceptive probe, perceptive input to the brain, and helps the joint work better, for sure.

Evan Brand: You had me hooked up when you were trying to get me to sit down. It was a struggle. I was like, “Whoah!”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: Who knew?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. It’s pretty crazy. Yeah, that stuff’s awesome, man. I mean, it’s like working with uhh– that’s hyper technology on patients. It’s like cheating, because you can really hone in your treatment. Just so specific.

Evan Brand: And that was what? Like, 10– 15 thousand-dollar device?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. It’s like a 15 to 20 thousand. I have a couple of them. They’re great. They’re phenomenal. They were awesome with patients. Wow. Love it.

Evan Brand: Anything else we should mention on joint pain. I feel like this was really good coverage.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think we hit everything. I mean, we’re– we’re really hitting everything from a 360 standpoint, ‘cause I guarantee you, there’s no podcast out there that’s hitting the infection piece, or uhhmm– or even a lot of the– just the modality that we hit too. I think we hit a full, kind of, spectrum for all the different potential solutions that are out there.

Evan Brand: Well, here’s the problem, too. There’s a lot of people are selling on their particular dogma, right. So if they got a X-Y-Z podcast, they’re gonna sell people on why their solution is the solution. But that’s not really us. I mean, if we’re really gonna tell you that if it’s a Chiropractor or Applied Kinesiology, a person can help you. We’re gonna tell you, we’re not gonna tell you, we’re not gonna omit some type of therapy just because it’s not something we can offer. And I do see wiith a lot of other people out there. They’re only going to end up at  their solution for the problem, but there’s other places out there that you can get help. Now, obviously, you still can benefit a lot from working with us with these other deeper issues: the infection connection, all that. But, you can’t fix everything, you know, with the magic supplements in removing infections, sometimes, you may need that hands-on care. So–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I agree, and a lot of Chiropractors, you know, they get their patients lulled in, and just having adjustments all the time, without making any changes. Now, I don’t think it’s that bad, because no one’s – you know, twenty thousand peoples aren’t dying a year from adjustments. You get maybe, one in ten million if that happens, and they, typically, already have a pre-existing stroke, that’s the reason why it happens. It very rarely happens because of a Chiropractic adjustment. So again, if you’re seeing a Chiropractor, and you’re not getting to the root cause. Well, at least, use that time that it’s helping to reduce the pain, to investigate what the underlying cause is, and ideally, your Chiropractor or Physical therapist should be working on all of the diet and lifestyle things as the foundation. And then, using some of the modalities that we talked about to stack on top of that. And then, digging in deeper with some of the Applied Kinesiology or the Cryo or the supplementation, or even the hormones, too, to help improve bone growth.

Evan Brand: And that interesting, the link between big Pharma and the mass media. I mean, that Chiropractor story, where someone, you know, I believe, there was some type of death last year. I mean, it was all over the media.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And I was like, you said, one in ten million. However, you don’t hear about the 19,000 that die every year of the Ibuprofen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: No, you don’t hear about that at all. And again, that girl, that was a girl in LA. I think she was a former Miss America, or some kind of model. She was a celebrity of some sort. But she got on a car accident. She, you know, had a Whiplash, and maybe, there was already a little tear in the uhhmm– in the lining of the artery. And that adjustment just was enough to straw off a clot and create that issue. So, going back to my old days, as a Chiropractic Physician, I would never adjust anyone ausiously. You know, with the kind of a crack sound. A post car accident.

Evan Brand: Wow.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [inaudible]… more gentle things, more techniques that were more gentle in the beginning. Just more just to ensure from a liability standpoint, you know. I didn’t get caught up with that.

Evan Brand: Yeah that’s a scary place to be.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh yeah.

Evan Brand: Thinking irresponsible for that. Goodness gracious!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, exactly, and the research is pretty clear. Dr. Malig has done a lot of work on this. Uhh – with the one in ten million, about the same risk as having a stroke going to a Chiropractor. The same risk of having stroke walking into your primary care‘s office. Same exact risk factor.

Evan Brand: Wow. That’s a trip. Well, great job today. People can reach out justinhealth.com, notjustpaleo.com. we do block at a few hours a month for free calls, so if you need to see if you’re a good fit, you could reach out, and we’ll see if we could help you out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Evan, great show today, my man. Appreciate it, loved it, and we’re gonna be back next week for more info coming your way.

Evan Brand: Likewise. Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thank you, Evan.

Evan Brand: Okay. Bye.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.









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