Dr. Bill Rawls emphasizes cellular health and herbal therapies over antibiotics in treating Lyme disease and chronic illnesses.
🌟 Cellular Health: Maintaining cellular health is crucial for addressing chronic illnesses like Lyme disease, as it helps regulate immune function and detoxification.
🌿 Herbal Therapy: Herbs can provide a sustainable approach to healing chronic infections without disrupting the microbiome, unlike traditional antibiotics.
🚫 Antibiotic Limitations: Over-reliance on antibiotics can lead to resistance and is often ineffective for long-term chronic infections, making alternative treatments necessary.
🦠 Dormant Microbes: Understanding that dormant microbes can be reactivated by stress highlights the need for effective stress management and cellular care in chronic illness treatment.
💉 Blood Flow Importance: Improving blood flow and coagulation can enhance immune response and nutrient delivery, which are crucial for recovery from chronic illness.
🔥 Detoxification Methods: Therapies like sauna and red light therapy are beneficial for detoxification, promoting overall cellular health and well-being.
🥗 Dietary Focus: A balanced diet emphasizing whole foods, vegetables, and intermittent fasting supports cellular recovery and overall health, while high protein diets may be detrimental.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey guys, it's Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Welcome to the Beyond Wellness Radio podcast. Feel free and head over to justinhealth. com. We have all of our podcast transcriptions there, as well as video series on different health topics ranging from thyroid to hormones, ketogenic diets, and gluten. While you're there, you can also schedule a consult with myself, Dr.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: J, and or our colleagues and staff to help dive into any pressing health issues you really want to get to the root cause on. Again, if you enjoy the podcast, feel free and share the information with friends or family. Dr. Justin Marchegiani, welcome back to the Beyond Wellness Radio Podcast. I have Dr. Bill Rawls in the house.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Dr. Bill, I chatted with him about four years ago, so excited to bring him back on the podcast. We're going to be diving into topics all around cellular health. We'll talk about Lyme. We'll talk about a lot of other maybe potential chronic health issues and what you can do about it. Dr. Bill, welcome back to the podcast.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How you doing?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Dr. Bill Miller Yeah.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Awesome. Well, let's dive in. What's new in your neighborhood? I know, um, you have some courses coming out. We were talking about that in the pre interview. What are some of the things that you're inspired to do some courses on?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Dr. Bill
Dr. Bill Rawls: Miller Yeah. Just that concept of cellular wellness. Um, I wrote a book, uh, recently that is out there called the Cellular Wellness Solution. And it's looking at disease at that cellular level, which really simplifies things. Makes it easier to understand. So, um, I've, you know, served a lot of people with chronic Lyme disease.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So, I'm in the middle of creating recovery courses to help them go through that entire process. Help them understand what's going on in their body. and what the microbes are doing and how that, uh, leads to those right recovery decisions. Dr. Justin Marchegiani And you're one of the first people
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I saw come out with a, with a kind of a chronic Lyme co infection type of product.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I remember it had the Japanese knotweed in there and some cat's claw and a couple of other things. Do you still sell that product?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Dr. Jim Kross Oh, absolutely. But it's, you know, it's not just that it's a comprehensive, um, natural program that includes A series of herbs, not only for suppressing microbes, but also immune modulation, cell restoration, and supportive nutrients to just bolster cellular recovery.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So, it's pretty comprehensive.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Dr. Justin Marchegiani So, when you say cellular recovery, like, what does that mean to you? Does that just mean starting to get healthy, starting to incorporate healthy diet, lifestyles, principles? Like, someone comes into your office and you're saying, Hey, we're going to work on cellular recovery.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What does that mean? What is the first couple of steps for that patient look like with you? Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Bill Rawls: Well, you know, it's, it's things that most people are aware of healthy diet, getting plenty of sleep, all of those kinds of things, but they don't think about it in that way. And what it boils down to is your whole body is made of cells.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Everything that happens in your body, whether it's your heart beating or brain impulses firing or thyroid hormone being produced, it's all done by cells. And if your cells aren't healthy, you aren't going to be healthy. Any symptom you have is because cells are stressed or distressed in your body. And, um, so the only true pathway to wellness It's cellular recovery and restoration of his cellular health.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That makes sense. And so, when the average patient comes to you, what's the typical presentation that you're seeing? Because I know you were an OB doc for a while, right, 20 plus years. And so, are you seeing a lot of female hormone cases with a lot of kind of chronic co infections or chronic immune dysregulation?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What's that typical patient that comes into your office look like?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Well, my practice has shifted quite a lot. I started my career in obstetrics and gynecology, but, uh, you know, late forties, I ended up struggling with chronic illness myself identified first with fibromyalgia later was as chronic Lyme. Um, now I recognize that there's not a lot of difference between those two things.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And. Ended up in my search, uh, finding herbal therapy as a solution, uh, got well, um, did the things that I needed to do to recover my health completely. So after that point, which was like mid fifties, my practice shifted more to helping people in that pathway. Um, so I've spent a lot of time really helping people understand, um, um, hormone issues with menopause, etc.
Dr. Bill Rawls: But a big focus of what I do is recovery from chronic illness, um, looking at that restorative pathway rather than, you know, the conventional medical pathway, which is mainly just suppressing the manifestations of the illness.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So let's kind of do a little compare and contrast. Like someone comes in to see you, right?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What are the typical foundational strategies when someone has chronic illness? What are the biggest things that you're going to do versus maybe the conventional medical doctor may ignore? Is it just maybe the conventional medical doctor maybe doesn't even see the chronic illness as an issue and it's like, let's just do it.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Do Band Aid mode, which may be antidepressants, maybe a birth control pill. If you're a woman with hormonal imbalances, what does that difference look like from someone like you versus the conventional MD? Dr. Jay
Dr. Bill Rawls: Harness Sure. Well, when you look at conventional medicine, the whole history of conventional medicine was built around acute intervention and for acute life threatening illnesses and injuries, a block vessel in your heart.
Dr. Bill Rawls: a broken leg. Any of those kinds of things, that acute intervention can be really, really important. But what we're doing in that case is basically stabilizing the injury. It's not, you know, we're not actually doing the healing. The body is doing the healing. So when we look at chronic illness, that obvious cause, the broken leg or the blocked artery or whatever, isn't there.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So when you look at multiple sclerosis and, and all the different chronic illnesses, Parkinson's, dementia, um, they're considered multifactorial. It's not one factor. It's a bunch of factors. So medical therapies for chronic illness basically ignore the underlying causes and treat the manifestations. So there are three main manifestations of illness symptoms, You feel that hormone imbalances and inflammation.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Um, but the root causes of all of those things are cellular stress, but there are no medical therapies, zero that address that underlying cellular stress. So what we're doing is artificially blocking hormone imbalances, inflammation, and symptoms. And if you're not getting to these underlying stress factors, People don't get well.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So that's a big difference right there. So I'm focused on what's driving the cellular stress that's making this person ill. And if we can get to those root causes, then we're going to solve that person's problem and they're actually going to get well and not end up in a state of managed illness. Dr.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Justin
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Marchegiani 100%. And we're gonna put the link below for your site, vitalplan. com, as well as Dr. Rall's new book, The Cellular Wellness Solution. So if you guys are listening in the description, you'll see it right there at the top. So feel free to click on that and check out Dr. Bill's site and book.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now I totally agree what you're saying, right? When you look at conventional medicine, conventional medicine thrives where the isolated root cause is isolated. Meaning it's done. It happened one time. You fell, you bumped your head, you broke your ankle, you got in a car accident, the root cause is no longer happening.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Most of, that's only about 10 percent of today's healthcare cost, right? When you look at functional medicine or natural medicine, we're trying to get to the root cause because underlying chronic disease, it's like a mini car accident happening every single day where the underlying cause is not fixed.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It's still happening in the background. And the drugs of choice typically block enzymatic pathways, reuptake inhibitor ports, HMG co reductase enzyme inhibitors and statins, you know, beta blockers and, and uh, different blood pressure meds, right? So it's, it's nothing, you know, we're adding synthetic hormones on the hormonal side, right?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We're not getting to the root. We're just trying to control symptoms, manage them, and hopefully over time, we don't need more drugs or higher doses, which then may create more side effects. And so. So, when you're dealing with someone with chronic illness, how much does the infectious load, um, play into that?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And conventional medicine does typically throw a lot of antibiotics and stuff, so how does what you do on the infection side differ from a chronically ill patient than what you do on the mainstream MD side?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Okay, well, let's, let's define infection. Um, so first of all, an infection is when a microbe, a foreign microbe enters the body for the first time.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So if you have chronic symptoms, that's very different than that acute infection. So in acute infection, we typically feel symptoms like malaise, fever, and that sort of thing, because when the microbe comes into the body, there's this confrontation between the microbe and the immune system.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And most of the time, you know, the immune system wins the battle. But the fact of the matter is it's happening a lot more than we know about. All right. So there are things that come in our body that typically don't cause symptoms. Most people that get bitten by a tick don't become symptomatic. And they think, well, I didn't get symptoms.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So I don't, bacteria didn't enter my body. Um, and the fact, and this idea that, well, some ticks have Lyme disease and some ticks don't is true, but all ticks carry hundreds of species of microbes and we don't know about what most of them do. And every time you get a tick bite, something enters your system.
Dr. Bill Rawls: But it's not just tick bites. It's intimate contact with other people. It's all the viruses and things that you picked up as a child. It's, it's, you know, hamster bites and cat scratches. It's, it's just things are happening all through your lifetime. Plus right now, while you and I are talking, there are microbes crossing over from our gut and our sinuses and our skin.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Into our bloodstream. And what all these microbes want is to get to our tissues because basically our tissues, our cells, our food, they need to break down our tissues to get more food, to grow microbes. That's what it's all about. So. When we have this confrontation, the immune system is, is most important for fending off these new infections, foreign invaders, things crossing over to our system.
Dr. Bill Rawls: But what I've learned, which is really fascinating, is that every encounter, some microbes make it beyond the immune system and they invade our cells. And this is a survival mechanism. If microbes can invade our cells, so that's, that's the resource they want. They want to break down our cells to make food, to free up those organic molecules, to, to, to make food for our, to grow other microbes.
Dr. Bill Rawls: But, if our cells are healthy, what can happen? and this turns out it happens a lot, is the microbes can go dormant inside of our cells. So imagine that. Every microbe encounter you've had for your whole lifetime, you've collected dormant microbes inside of your cells, in your brain, in your heart, in your joints, everywhere.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And so, as long as your cells aren't stressed, these microbes stay there. They stay dormant. And that's the key to understanding how all these chronic illnesses occur, chronic Lyme disease and everything else. Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, I'm just gonna play devil's advocate here just so the average person kind of, you know, can see it from both sides.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, why isn't conventional medicine good at this? Because they're really good at prescribing antibiotics, even when there's viral infections, which antibiotics don't really address at all. Why aren't antibiotics addressing this? And are we having collateral damage? from antibiotics with microbiome destruction.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What's your take on that?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Yeah, that's the problem. When you look at antibiotics, they are built for one purpose, killing fast growing microbes. That's it. So if you get a pneumococcal pneumonia, antibiotics are going to kill those fast growing bacteria very rapidly. Pneumococcus turns over, Uh, doubling times about 20 minutes.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So they're growing really, really rapidly. They can make somebody sick very, very quickly. So antibiotics are very good for that. The problem is you're killing other things in your body too. You're killing, you're affecting the normal flora in your gut and on your skin and throughout your body. So our normal flora play a very important role in our micro defense in that they keep pathogens that we all have.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And it got suppressed. So we need our normal flora. So in as little as 10 days of taking an antibiotics, two things happen. One, you start depressing your normal flora and allowing pathogens to flourish in your gut. in your skin, all over your body. And two, you're starting to generate resistance to that antibiotic.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So the pathogens that you're, you're cultivating are starting to become resistant to the antibiotic and that puts you in a really, really bad place. Now these dormant microbes I'm talking about, the antibiotics don't touch them at all. And, when they reactivate, they're growing very, very slowly. Much slower than our normal flora.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So it does take long term suppression to bring them down, but if you do it with an antibiotic, you're going to destroy your normal flora and generate antibiotic resistance every single time. Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And I see a lot of these even more natural doctors that are kind of part of this ILADS community where they tend to use a lot of chronic antibiotic, like for years at a time with a lot of these Lyme or Lyme co infection people, you start to deal with the idea that you have die off, but then are you really just dealing with the consequences and the side effects of the antibiotics?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: But then it's told, well, that's just a Herxheimer's, keep going, keep going. But then is it really the antibiotics or is it really you're having die off and you should keep going? So it's this kind of like, You're damned if you do, damned if you damned if you don't, and you're kind of putting this rock in a hard place.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How do you navigate someone that's put on that path with chronic antibiotic use and you don't know if it's helping or if it's die off or if it's side effects?
Dr. Bill Rawls: There may be a place for antibiotics, but I think it's a very, very limited place. I cannot not to use antibiotics. I did not, you know, I took antibiotics early on.
Dr. Bill Rawls: It's like, yeah, I finally got this diagnosis of Lyme disease. I can take antibiotics and I can get well. And after several weeks, I was actually sicker. Well, then when I started every single time I used antibiotics that forced me to start looking around, which ultimately caused me to use herbal therapy, and that was my ultimate solution.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So when you look at herbs, they are a solution that fits the problem. better than anything else you can do. Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Do you ever recommend acute antibiotics, like an acute doxycycline protocol, like a 500 milligram BID for two weeks if someone get bit by a Lyme, or if they showed a bullseye rash, which most of the time they don't.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh, what's your recommendation on that? Dr. Will
Dr. Bill Rawls: Collins Yeah, I think that's reasonable. This idea that antibiotics eradicate the microbes every time I think is bogus. There is no evidence of that. Um, that's just an assumption than a lot of conventional doctors make. There's no evidence and there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.
Dr. Bill Rawls: I've seen too many cases so I think without a cute bit tick bite taking antibiotics is reasonable because The microbes have first entered the body the bacteria first enter the body. They're coursing through the bloodstream They're invading tissues and if we can decrease the counts of the bacteria then that helps give the immune system a leg up number one and two that probably is going to reduce the numbers of microbes that actually make it to our tissues and invade cells.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So I think it's very important, but I don't stop there. I typically put people on herbal therapy for months because the penalty for using herbal therapy is Pretty close to zero.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I agree. Like for instance, my wife, the start of last summer, had a tick bite. It was on her for a day or two. Our first line approach was we use some topical silver gel and some, and some witch hazel.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We hit that for a couple days topically. And then for the whole summer, for three months, I had her on astragalus. Cat's Claw, uh, Heteron, uh, the Risveratrol, Japanese knotweed, see there was a couple other, Sarsaparilla was another one, Andrographis was another one, um, Cryptolipus, and, and, and Psittacuta were a couple others.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So we had around this whole protocol for about two to three months, and a little bit of Reishi mushroom in the background to keep the immune system supported, I agree, it's, it's better to take a long and steady approach, keep the immune system strong, maybe you have some You know, some topical or oral antimicrobials, but then really bump up those natural killer cells so they can go to work and really clean down that microbial load.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Absolutely. I mean that, that makes a lot of sense. But there is a specific reason why herbs are so valuable in this, and that is that. When you take an herb, you're basically borrowing the plant's defense system. Love that. So, all plants are producing a chemical network to protect the plant's cells from free radicals, from radiation, from toxic substances, but from every microbe imaginable.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So, we have a cellular immune system. Plants have a chemical immune system. Fungi have a chemical immune system. So we're not taking one chemical like an antibiotic. We're taking this spectrum of chemicals. And there's a certain intelligence built into that. And very interestingly, when I started Herbs, I was taking things that I thought Uh, you know, might have antimicrobial power.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And I assume that within several weeks, I would have the same response to the, uh, as the antibiotic. I would have bad gut dysfunction and everything else never happened. And the reason is that. Herbs, when you take an herb, even an herb with stronger antimicrobial properties, it suppresses pathogens, but not your normal flora.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And that's really important. What that means is you can take herbs for a long time. I've actually been taking herbs continually for 15 years. Um, and, and that's, that's just so remarkably important. Um, now they do have antimicrobial properties. All plants have antimicrobial properties. All fungi have antimicrobial properties.
Dr. Bill Rawls: They have to. All living organisms have to defend themselves against other microbes. Even bacteria. So all living organisms have some kind of defense system against microbes. So again, when we take an herb, we're borrowing that plant's system to reinforce our own. Um, and there's plenty of good evidence that it works.
Dr. Bill Rawls: There was a Johns Hopkins study in 2020 that showed some of the herbs you're mentioning, Japanese knotweed, cat's claw, and others. Chinese skullcap was on the list, actually worked better than doxycycline for suppressing Borrelia. There also have been a series of studies looking at Bartonella, Babesia, SARS virus, showing these same herbs have a broad spectrum of activity.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So the herbs have some really remarkable antimicrobial properties. Now, somebody had acute, acute pneumonia. I'd probably treat them with an antibiotic, but most anything that has a chronic nature, I'm going to use herbal therapy. And if they're not responding, then you have to look at factors that, that their cellular health is poor and you're not getting the coverage that you need.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So you might need to round out other herbs or focus on other parts of the therapy. Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. People forget about 80 percent of your immune system's in the galt and the malt, right? The gastric associated lymph tissue and then the mucosal associated lymph tissue in the stomach and in the small intestine.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, if you chronically are blitzing your intestinal tract with antibiotics, you're gonna negatively impact that microbiome which is gonna impact your immune system, not to mention, more than likely create some kind of a fungal or candida overgrowth, which is also going to have a negative impact on your immune system too.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And so we can't, you know, forget about that. And then you mentioned some of the anti inflammatory aspects of the herbs that are going to be wonderful. Plus there's the things that herbs have, the antibiotics. Don't really address or call flx pumps. People don't know about this, but EFL pumps, essentially, if an, if a microbe is a canoe taking on water, right?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh, essentially the flx pumps would be someone on that canoe bailing the water back out into the ocean, right? And essentially the flx pumps are like, take it away. That bucket out of that person and the canoes hands. So the canoe could take on water faster and sink. And that's a property that many. of these botanical herbs have that antibiotics don't quite possess.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Not to mention, some of the antioxidants, which are very important because if you just go on PubMed and type in antibiotic and oxidative stress, and antibiotic and mitochondrial damage, you'll see lots of studies connecting that oxidative stress from mitochondrionopathy to antibiotics, which you don't quite get that with herbs.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Plus, you get the ability to kind of titrate. If you're doing a tincture or a smaller dose, you can kind of work things up if you're more sensitive on that side of the fence too, which I like.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Dr. Jay Harness Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, all of those are important points. And here's a long list of why herbs are better, but it, you know, it, it, when I look at herbs, I look at them as a cell protection system.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And I think that's really important. Um, You know, whether you're talking about antimicrobial properties or the other protective properties, every herb I've studied has been documented to have anti cancer properties. Um, most herbs have some properties that protect us from excessive carbohydrate consumption.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And that's not a substitute for a good diet, but it can help. So these things are protecting ourselves. And really that's the core. of getting well. Um, so this idea of dormant microbes in our tissue, um, it is being labeled if you do a search on PubMed, you'll find one particular study that, uh, scientists are starting to call this the dormant blood and tissue microbiome.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And the idea that we actually have dormant microbes in our blood in our red blood cells, um, in our white blood cells in our brain and throughout tissues in our body is pretty fascinating. And when you start looking at it as a model for chronic illness, it really provides this elegant explanation for everything.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So you can have these things. They can be present your whole life, you know. I got bitten by ticks when I was a child and picked up all kinds of stuff. Mycoplasma, Epstein Barr virus. And these are just the ones we know about. The ones we know about are just scratching the surface. So, these things stay dormant inside your cells, but cellular stress, eating a poor diet, not sleeping enough.
Dr. Bill Rawls: the chronic exposure to all the toxic substances we are or mold being sedentary and not, you know, having the blood flow you need to flush away all that buildup of toxic waste around your cells, then your cells are weakened. And when your cells are weakened, The microbes reactivate, emerge from cells, in different cells, different tissues in the body, and start causing symptoms.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Symptoms are damage to cells, and so you have different symptoms in your body. But, um, plays out differently with different illnesses. People pick up different microbes. They're exposed to different stresses. We have different genetic factors that allow reactivation of microbes in various parts of the body.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And that really starts to explain all chronic illnesses, but drugs aren't a solution for it. And that's why you don't hear conventional doctors talking about it because they don't have tools to fix it.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: No, and it comes to the chronic illness department. They're definitely off there. Plus the insurance model spending three to five minutes with the patient.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It's not really enough time to really get the data you need to be able to make the diet and lifestyle changes. I want to dive into that in a second. Um, when my wife got that tick bite last year, we sent it to a lab too and had it PCR analyzed for microbes. It came back with nothing. What's your thought on saving your tick and try to have it analyzed and see if there's any microbes specifically on it?
Dr. Bill Rawls: You know, when it comes to microbe testing and testing ticks in from an academic point of view, I think any testing and the more we know, it's better. I mean, you think about it. 50 years ago, we didn't know that Borrelia caused an illness called Lyme disease. Nobody knew about that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And then over the years we've started, uh, defining all of these other pathogens, um, that are present in ticks.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Well, they found that one tick species covers, carries over 237 different families of bacteria. Yeah. That's hundreds, hundreds, hundreds of bacteria. And we don't know most of them, what most of them do or their potential to, for harm. But what I can tell you is, All of these things that we're talking about are low grade pathogens.
Dr. Bill Rawls: That surprises people when I say that. Dr. Justin
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Marchegiani But if your immune system is strong, you probably could overcome it without a problem. But when you have all kinds of other stressors and you're a little bit more compromised, then that's where that chronic illness situation could set in.
Dr. Bill Rawls: That's right, because even if you don't have symptoms at a tick bite, some of those microbes can get through and become dormant in your tissues, and they can reactivate later. So, you know, the more tick bites you get, the more exposure, but quite frankly, we're exposed to a lot of different things. And what I can tell you is that people can have virtually the same symptoms of chronic Lyme disease And never have been bitten by a tick or exposed to those particular microbes because there's so many other things out there.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And again, we're just scratching the surface.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Dr. Justin Marchegiani 100%. Now you mentioned coagulation and blood flow earlier. I want to kind of dive down that path a little bit because we know a lot of these herbs and nutrients, you need blood flow to get them into the tissue so they can be exposed to these microbes to modulate your immune system.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We'll What are some of your strategies to improve coagulation to it or decrease coagulation? That means clotting and improve blood flow.
Dr. Bill Rawls: What does that look
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: like to you? Dr.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Justin Marchegiani Well, coagulation. We see this happening with illness, right?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Dr. Justin Marchegiani Okay. Inflammation. Dr.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Justin Marchegiani So what's happening there?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Um, well, that theory on the blood and dormant blood. the dormant blood and tissue microbiome, um, actually gave some suggestions on that. And actually, I found half a dozen studies that have been done around the world that did, um, RNA recombinant testing to look for dormant microbes in red blood cells of healthy people.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And what they found was, every sample, every single sample in every study showed dormant bacteria. Inside red blood cells in healthy people. And they source them interestingly, not mostly from the outside of the body, but from the gut and from the skin. And we know that things are crossing over these barriers are our gut barrier, our skin barrier.
Dr. Bill Rawls: They're crossing, crossing to our gut bloodstream. And again, a survival strategy is dormancy. So if you're healthy and you've got good, healthy blood cells, then they stay dormant. But. If you are stressed, all these stress factors that I talk about, then the microbes start reactivating. So think about this, you know, if your microbes are dormant and your cells are healthy, that's what wellness is.
Dr. Bill Rawls: When your cells become weak and these microbes can reactivate, and when they reactivate, they're, what their strategy is, is breaking down cells and breaking down tissues. to form, um, to basically generate food to grow more microbes. Well, that's what's happening in the bloodstream. So when, when, when everything is weakened, your, these microbes in your, your blood, um, this is the theory that's outlined by that study, is that the microbes reactivate and start breaking down red blood cells and that activates coagulation factors which clump the red blood cells.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So you've got this broken down red blood cells that are clumped together. Well, that forms a perfect environment for microbes to grow for bacteria to grow. So that's basically what's going on. Um, so we do see that that and that anemia of chronic illness, the coagulation that occurs when somebody is really, really sick is explained by that phenomenon of, uh, the microbes, but because most bacteria, not Borrelia, interesting, but most bacteria need iron.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Um, so if the cells are healthy, they can't get to the iron, but if the cells are unhealthy and they can break the cells down and clump them together, Then they can start, uh, building out more microbes. Um, as far as tissues go, yes. You know, when we have poor cellular health, we have constant cellular die off.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Now, cells are dying all the time. You know, we're dying, cells are dying. We're replacing them. We lose about a billion cells a day. But if you have. Excess cellular die off. Think about it. You know, all your cells are kind of compacted together in tissues like in your heart or in your muscle. So if you have increased cellular die off, that creates debris and that become that congest the spaces in between yourselves.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So cells can't get good blood flow or flow from nutrients and oxygen. But they also can't purge waste. They can't get rid of waste. So this, The solution to pollution is dilution. And if you can't exercise sauna is really good for flushing away those spaces. That's the first and most important step of detoxification is allowing, giving that, that flow to allow yourselves to purge those toxic substances and clear away that waste.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And when we look at chronic inflammation, what's going on is when you have all that extra die off and debris, the, the immune system sends in cells called macrophages to clean up the mess. Well, that they use potent acid and free radicals to break that, the, all that debris down. So if it's going on to any significant degree, it's, That becomes a toxic stew that your cells are bathed in.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A hundred percent. So we need good hydration along with that hydration. If we're eliminating a lot or sweating a lot, we could also be pretty low in electrolytes. So making sure we're on top of our sodium, our chloride, our potassium, magnesium sounds like it'd be also very important. You talked about sweating.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Where do you incorporate binders to kind of help, you know, bind up some of these toxins so we can eliminate it so it doesn't kind of re go back, you know, re populate the circulation again once you've kind of headed down that excreting pathway. What does that look like?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Uh, the most important binder I suggest to people is eat more vegetables than anything else.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So good fiber. Vegetable fiber is actually promoting normal bowel movements and it's a great binder. Um, when you look at charcoal, bentonite clay, those kinds of things. What you're doing is actually slowing motility down in the gut. Um, people can get constipated from it. So that first step in detoxification is blood flow, um, increasing blood flow.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And if you want to take something that expedites the process, I like chlorella because chlorella is actually Uh, you're absorbing the chlorophyll is actually binding some of those things in that extracellular space and helping clear them through the lymphatics and sweat and, and through the bloodstream.
Dr. Bill Rawls: I know about the sweat part because when I was just exploring different kinds of things, I took a lot of chlorella. I started sweating green. So, yeah, you get it all through your body. Um, but that's helping to pull those things away to get them to the liver where they can be neutralized. Now, once the toxic substances are neutralized, it's not a flood.
Dr. Bill Rawls: It's, it's slowly trickling into your GI. So you need something continually there. And the best thing for that is it's just vegetable fiber or other fibers like pectin and apple pectin and things like that to help pull that thing through and to make sure. that you're stimulating normal bowel movements to increase mobility to get things out of your body.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Dr. Justin
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Marchegiani Yeah. I always tell patients, if we're using a binder, we got to make sure our bowels are doing good, and you're, you're eliminating your bowels at least every 18 to 24 hours. I think that's really important. What supplements to help improve coagulability? We didn't quite hit the specific supplement side of the fence.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What do you like there?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Well, anything that improves cellular health. I mean, the herbs are going to do a great job of that too.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Anything in particular, like ginger or like systemic enzymes, things like that. Anything like that that you like?
Dr. Bill Rawls: You know, the herbs are first on my list because they are doing so many things for cellular health.
Dr. Bill Rawls: By
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: herbs, can you just kind of hit the top three?
Dr. Bill Rawls: All right. Shine Japanese, not weed, Chinese skullcap, cat's claw, throw in some cordyceps and reishi, it's a really good combination. Love that. Um, but so the herbs are doing a lot. So all of those herbs are going to have some anti coagulation properties. They inhibit platelets.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So they, they keep that clumping from happening. So I think that's really important. Um, when you look at the overall picture, you mentioned enzymes like naticanase and
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: seropeptidase,
Dr. Bill Rawls: that, you know, they're breaking down fibrin, um, which is part of that clotting mechanism. Um, one of the best blood thinners I know of is krill oil.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Krill oil is great. Um, I did a self experiment. I wanted to see how much the average male, this was when I was well, how many Krill tablets, capsules, it would take to get to the point of thinning my blood. And you can monitor that. And I don't suggest that everybody do this. You know, I'm a physician and, and, and, you know, I was, uh, I wanted to learn, um, real quick, what was the lab marker finger?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Was, was, was it A-A-A-A-D dimer or a fibrinogen? What mark are we using?
Dr. Bill Rawls: I was just pricking my finger. Oh, okay. Pretty easy. It's not a lab marker. Um, yeah, it works. That, that is your best coagulate, but, but, blood bleeding time is more important than anything else. I mean, that gives you more information. You just pick, prick your finger.
Dr. Bill Rawls: You can get a lot of information without doing a whole lot of work.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Are you milking at all or are you just letting it run?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Well, I didn't really let it run too long, but I was up to about five or six capsules and it was, uh, and then it was like, yeah, that's, that's, that's getting pretty thin. So I backed off to three.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So three was perfect for me. Um, And, but my wife, she bruises with one capsule. She has to be really careful. So it's, it is a little bit individual. Um, but, um, you know, so I, I think average one to three capsules of krill, but it appears that krill does a better job of Helping than fish oil because it's a phospholipid and phospholipids bit of a triglyceride, so we can absorb it better.
Dr. Bill Rawls: We get more of it and it has a little bit better blood thinning properties, but it's less, less
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: EPA and DHA though. It's, it's more the phospholipids that kind of have that therapeutic benefit.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Yes. Well, you know, all of our cell membranes are phospholipids. Right, right.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You
Dr. Bill Rawls: get to lift them so it's absorbed easier through the gut.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And it's incorporated easier into our cell membranes where it can do some good. Um, but also how it affects Particles like LDL particles and things like that. The, the lipoprotein is going to affect it differently than to try glyceride. Um, it's going to be more soluble. It's going to affect particles, uh, differently.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Is there any application that you would prefer fish oil over krill?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Yeah, I'm sure you could find one, but you know, if you, if I had to choose one or the other, I look at all the different variables and, uh, krill wins overall.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good. You described it really uniquely. You said you're borrowing your, the plant's defenses.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Their immune defense is when you take on that herbal, that herbal support, you take, you're borrowing their immune defense. I never heard someone explain it like that before. That really resonated.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it's more than just the plant's defenses, right? So, plants are using a lot of the same chemical messengers that we are.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So we're a multicellular organism, so all of our cells, for us to function as a unit, functions of all of our cells have to be synchronized. And that's basically what nerves and hormones are doing and other signaling agents. We even use photons for signaling between cells. All the cells in the body have to talk to all this other cells in the body for us to function properly.
Dr. Bill Rawls: The brain is working to sense everything going on outside and inside and regulate those cellular functions to synchronize. So we're matching the stresses that we need to to function. Um, so plants have to do that same thing. Plants have to coordinate all of their cellular functions. So they're using a lot of the same chemical messengers that we are.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So it's not surprising when you take an herb like passion flower or some or different kinds of herbs that it's going to have some effect on our hormone systems. Now some, so different plants have different effects because different plants are dealing with different stresses in their environment, and they choose to solve that problem in different ways.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And sometimes it's not compatible with our body. It's like nobody would try to take poison ivy for health benefits, right? But most plants, the things that we define as herbs, are things Humans have been using for thousands of years. So we've found that they have this compatible ability to our body and they can provide benefits, but different herbs have different effects.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So when you look at the adaptogens, there are two ways that they're reducing stress. So adapt, adaptogens are herbs. or medicinal mushrooms that make us more stress resilient. Well, they're doing that one by protecting our cells from stress, which makes us more stress resilient. But they're also balancing our stress hormones.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Taking that healthy plant gives our brain feedback that it calms down some of those stress hormones. So we're not pushing that stress button quite so hard. Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good. What are your top 5 favorite adaptogens? Dr. Michael Kruse
Dr. Bill Rawls: Um, yeah, rhodiola is a really good one. Dr. Michael Kruse Um, for recovering from chronic illness, uh, like reishi and cordyceps, they're exceptional.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Dr. Michael Kruse Interesting, you know, we talked about, um, Japanese knotweed and Chinese skullcap, cat's claw, some of those herbs. They all have some adaptogenic properties that are really interesting. They all have anti cancer properties. They do a lot for your system. Um, but, uh, Yeah, rhodiola, reishi, cordyceps, uh, there's one called gotu kola that's really good for your brain.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Lion's mane is great for your brain. Memory. Um, schizandra is a really nice adaptogen. I tend to gravitate toward things that aren't stimulating, you know, some adaptogens, the classic adaptogen is ginseng, but it's very, very stimulating. And it tends to interrupt sleep for a lot of people that are recovering from an illness.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And the same thing with Eleuthera, which is a really nice adaptogen, but it's, it's, it's a little bit too stimulating for most people. Rhodiola. a little bit stimulating. I tend not to use it for people recovering from chronic illness. But, you know, if you're healthy, that little bit just, yeah, it can, it can really make you feel good.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And how do you recommend some of the herbs or adaptogens that you do? Is it just based on your clinical experience? Do you do any muscle testing? How do you prioritize how many someone should get or not?
Dr. Bill Rawls: You know, I never learned to do mud muscle testing. I think there's value in that, but it's, um, and it is a little bit of a trial and error, but what I find is these herbs that I would define as everyday herbs.
Dr. Bill Rawls: You know, these are herbs that are mainly have. uh, cell protective properties or stress reducing balancing properties, most people tolerate them quite well. Um, of course, that doesn't describe all herbs or all plants, you know, as you can move out to an area where you're getting plants that contain phytochemicals that have more drug like properties.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Um, and a lot of people are looking for those drug like properties because they want to solve a problem. You know, they want something that either puts them to sleep or stimulates them or something to get an effect from the herb that's more of a drug like effect. I tend not to use those as much and people tend to have more side effects.
Dr. Bill Rawls: The more drug like your herb, the more The more side effects and potential for side effects that you're going to have All the way out to the fact that more than half of our drugs actually come from plants
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah,
Dr. Bill Rawls: and the interesting thing though is a lot of people hear that and they go Oh, well, they're pulling chemicals from all these medicinal herbs that we're taking No, they're not what they're looking for are things that poison reactions in the body So they're looking for plants that are basically poisons You They're looking for things that kill cancer cells or interrupt enzymes or some of the things that you mentioned typically Yeah, so they're looking for a plant with a poisonous effect that we can pull that that particular Chemical that has that effect and use it Therapeutically and there is value in that, you know, there's there's a place for every one of our drugs But we're too reliant on on drugs and we're not using them to promote cellular health and wellness.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So I was talking to a organic chemist that worked for a major drug company and I said, you know, cause he was working on a lot of the research and pipeline drugs. And I said, what percent of all the drugs that you're working on, you are looking at different herbs or botanicals and trying to take some kind of an isomer to, to make that a patented drug.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: He's like 70 percent of the drugs we're looking at. That's a big thing. Now, again, that may be good at certain levels if it's less toxic, right, because the problem with a lot of different drugs, they can be very toxic. And if you can use a plant that's less toxic, maybe it's a little bit different, but then it's like, well, why don't we use the whole plant itself, right?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So it kind of begs the question, right? Um, so that, that makes a lot of sense.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Yeah, well, you know that it's a big part of pulling a particular chemical is that you can Sensitize that chemical and then patent it. So I think it's important to recognize that again when we start talking about antibiotics I used to think that there were just these really brilliant scientists that sat in a room and they designed these chemicals that had these antimicrobial properties.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Not even close. We're just not that smart at all. All antibiotics originate from a natural source, either a plant, a bacteria, or a fungus. Funguses are especially good because funguses are Constantly having to fight off bacteria and they're producing a lot of antimicrobial substances,
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: correct?
Dr. Bill Rawls: And so, but they don't take the organisms entire system.
Dr. Bill Rawls: It's not the whole bacteria system or the, the plant system or the funguses system, they're pulling one chemical that they can potentiate. And
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: making more therapeutic and that's really
Dr. Bill Rawls: important. Um, yeah, and there's a, there's a certain amount of being able to do a targeted effect, you know, so from our drugs, we want this targeted effect, which can be valuable.
Dr. Bill Rawls: You know, you look at the drugs for chronic illness early on when somebody is in a really, really bad place, that medical therapy can be very important for stabilizing the person's condition and keeping them from dying. But If you just keep doing that, the person isn't ever going to get well. Dr. Justin
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Marchegiani Makes sense.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Plus with a lot of these herbs, you're going to get different bioflavonoids. You may even get biofilm disruptors, antioxidants that are also going to come in there and support the antimicrobial action of the plant as well. So it's kind of like a package deal where you're getting all these synergistic cofactors with it, where if you're just pulling an isomer out, trying to patent it, you're not, you're going to miss all these other synergistic compounds that are around that plant, too.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Makes sense. I want to hit a couple rapid questions here before we let you go. Any other modalities that you find beneficial with the, for the chronically ill patient? You mentioned sauna. Uh, is that infrared sauna or is that hot sauna? Also, any other thoughts on other modalities like cold plunges, cold therapy, uh, PEMF devices, red light?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I just kind of want to go down the top five or so modalities for you that you see as being beneficial.
Dr. Bill Rawls: You know, I've, I've looked at these things for years and my foundational thing is always herbal therapy. I think that should be cornerstone of any recovery. And beyond that, the person really does need to adopt those, uh, uh, practices for cellular health, good diet, clean environment, uh, low stress, plenty of sleep, getting plenty of exercise.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Um, but. Beyond that, can you do anything to accelerate it? And the things that I'm looking at are things that might have the advantage of promoting cellular health. Um, so brain retraining there, there are another number of different, uh, options for that can calm that sympathetic overload. It's really, really driving a lot of illnesses.
Dr. Bill Rawls: I mean, you think about it. So what a symptom is, there are two things, there are two components of a symptom. One, when cells are stressed or injured, like if you cut your finger, you damage cells, they release chemicals that activate nerves that tell your brain something's wrong. The second thing is, like if you sprain your ankle, You've damaged cells and you lose that function.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So what healing is, is the ability of cells to regenerate, but that takes time. So in the short term, symptoms can be a big problem. Now, think about somebody who is chronically ill, who has cells that are in distress all through their body, constantly bombarding the brain with these distress signals. It causes that overactivity of that fight or flight response, which works against us because it messes up our sleep and messes up our GI tract and everything else.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So brain retraining to enhance the vagal response to calm the sympathetic overactivity can be, uh, really beneficial for someone in chronic and that it's recovering from a chronic illness. Um, P E M F and red light therapy, especially we know that that That low level energy is actually energizing cells.
Dr. Bill Rawls: It's providing more energy for mitochondria to function. So when cells have more energy, they can recover. Um, that's really important. Um, of the two, the bid, the best data I've seen is red light therapy. Um, they've actually demonstrated that the photons are energizing mitochondria within cells. Um, and it's good for brain functions.
Dr. Bill Rawls: It's good for, you know, virtually everything in the body. And along with that cold laser is basically the same thing. Um, so red light therapy can be really beneficial. Sauna of any kind, I think is fine. Um, you know, it, it, it, the, I think the big deal with infrared sauna is that it's very, very convenient.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Penetrates deeper too maybe.
Dr. Bill Rawls: You know, you can have a red, uh, a sauna, uh, infrared sauna unit shipped across the country. You snap the panels together, you plug it into a wall socket. Hey, you're good to go. Whereas regular sauna is quite a bit more complex and you have the moisture issue that you're having to heat the air instead of radiating the heat into your body.
Dr. Bill Rawls: But basically what you're doing, um, is. Heating up the body and that increases blood flow. So you're, it's another way to flush your tissues and, and pull out those toxic substances, help your cells purge to a toxic substances. Um, so there are quite a number of other things out there. Um, seems like there's a new therapy that pops up every day.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And I, I try to look at it with four variables. Um, the first is efficacy. Um, is there some kind of information and, and the best is scientific information, but you know, if there's not much science, but you've got several hundred thousand people that have posted on the internet that they've gotten benefit, I mean, that's something worth looking at efficacy.
Dr. Bill Rawls: The second is safety. What's the, the penalty for doing that thing? How, what's the potential for how much could it hurt you? Um, the third is cost. Um, you know, if you've got something that, yeah, we don't really know that much about it. We are not sure if the safety profile and it's going to cost you a big upfront cost.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Better go back and look at that one again, right? And the fourth is, is it supportive or is it completely therapeutic? It's like herbs and that lifestyle change. I consider that therapeutic. Um, uh, as far as, as, as total therapy, whereas red light therapy, I see that more as supportive. It's, it's helping out.
Dr. Bill Rawls: It can relieve symptoms. Um, but all of those things are good. Dr. Justin
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Marchegiani Very good. Any last question here? Any foundational.
Dr. Bill Rawls: I've tried to get it down to easy and I've got it down to four basic points and that I follow, try to follow every day. Um, so, First is trying to eat a whole food diet. Um, Whole foods are whole cells. It's like an apple is full of carbohydrate, but all that carbohydrate is contained inside cells. And the parts of all of those cells are the nutrients that your cells need to function.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Compare that to a donut. That is just raw carbohydrate and fat extracted from seeds. You don't get the same effect So whole foods are really important. Yep. Can't do that with everything but as much as you can The second is eat more vegetables than anything else. It doesn't matter how you describe it vegetables are really important But vegetables don't have much carbohydrate in fat.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And that's one of the reasons they're important. So they don't taste good. So you have to learn how to incorporate diet vegetables to make your, make them taste good. The third is try to keep your carbohydrate counts down. And I don't, I don't follow ketogenic. I think quick ketogenic and. Can force people into bad dietary habits, but, um, I try to keep my carbs around 150 to 200.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Um, and that's, that's enough to add enough carbohydrate to make life comfortable. You know, I can have an apple. Um, I can occasionally have a piece of bread when I go out to eat or something. As long as I'm keeping that total carbohydrate count during the day. And I check it to keep myself honest. I do a hemoglobin A1C every six months.
Dr. Bill Rawls: My last one was 5. 0, which shows that I'm not eating enough carbohydrates to damage my cells. And the fourth is this concept of intermittent fasting, which is just getting circulated around in a lot of different ways. Some people are just eating one meal a day. Um, but I think the idea of giving your body at least 12 hours for some people, they can go to six other people, it's difficult, but at least 12 hours just to digest your food.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And that promotes autophagy, which is the process of cellular repair. Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Any, uh, philosophy on protein, proteic assumption, and how much?
Dr. Bill Rawls: Dr. Gregory Poland Um, you don't really need a ton of protein. I think most people are eating more protein than they need. They think, wow, protein is really great for you.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Well, we do need protein because protein is important for us to build muscles, to build enzymes. Everything works in the body from protein. Um, so, yeah. But yeah, you need about 100 to 200 grams a day. That's not a huge amount. Um, here's the penalty for a high protein diet. So proteins contain nitrogen. So when you break down proteins and start burning them for energy, which if you're eating more proteins than your body is using to replace proteins, you're burning it as energy.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Or you're converting it over to fat. When you do that, you split off the nitrogens. That's ammonia. And ammonia is really toxic to your cells, to your kidneys and everything else. So high protein diets, um, generate a lot of ammonia, which isn't necessarily good for you. The other problem with a high protein diet is that when you metabolize the protein, it generates acid in your tissues.
Dr. Bill Rawls: And that day, you know, your, your, your blood, your blood and your tissues have to be maintained at a very, very, uh, narrow pH, this right around 7. 4 all the time, you have to do that. So if you're generate, if you're eating a lot of high protein diet, lots of grains, that sort of thing, you're generating acid in your tissues.
Dr. Bill Rawls: So you're pulling bicarbonate carbon from your bones. to neutralize that acid. So high protein diets have been associated with osteoporosis. You're pulling calcium, you're leaching your bones to neutralize the acid. Um, so high protein diets are associated with, uh, if you're eating a lot of high red meat diet, it's associated with increased risk of colon cancer, kidney disease, and osteoporosis.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: All right. Well, thanks for the feedback, Doc. I really appreciate it. Head over to vitalplan. com. That's Dr. Rawls website. And then Dr. Rawls new book is Cellular, well, what's the title? Cellular Wellness. I had it up near my phone. Dr. David Jockers Cellular Wellness Solution. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Cellular Wellness Solution.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We'll put the link right down below in the description. Dr. Rawls, anything else? Dr. David
Dr. Bill Rawls: Jockers Ah, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Justin Marchegiani
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. Nice chatting with you, Doc. You have a good one. Take care.
Dr. Bill Rawls: Dr. David Jockers Thanks. Take care.
speak pipe
Rumble
Youtube
Apple
LIBSYN
Bitchute