Cutting Edge Healing Technology – The Neubie with Garrett Salpeter | Podcast #279

We are back to Beyond Wellness Radio! For this episode, we have Garrett Salpeter, producer of the amazing technology called Neubie. He works with professional athletes who are trying to recover from injuries. Check out this podcast to know more about Neubie, how it works, and it’s unique features. Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

1:15    How It All Started

3:50    The Framework of Neubie

16:47   Muscle Repairs

21:21   Unique Features of Neubie

35:07   Importance of Nervous System

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey guys, it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Welcome back to Beyond Wellness Radio. I have a phenomenal guest friend and colleague, Garrett Salpeter. He’s here. Garrett runs an amazing clinic down in Austin, Texas where I am from. Garrett works with professional athletes, you name them across the board, all sports, people that are trying to recover from injuries and weekend warriors. Garrett has some amazing technology that he has produced, as well as a lot of different clinical techniques that people come to him to apply to help accelerate their healing and allow their body to perform at their max potential. Garrett, welcome to the show, my man. 

Garrett Salpeter: Thank you, Dr. Justin. It’s a pleasure to be here. I’m excited to be on the show. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Same here. Well, I’ve been using your technology for a while and you’ve really taken it to the next level the last couple years creating your own device called the Neubie, and you also have a lot of education. Can you see illogical neurological techniques that you’ve encountered? into this. So, I know a lot of people listening may be potential patients or people that have injuries. Some practitioners may be listening. So how did you stumble across this technology? And how did you kind of bundle it up like you have the last 10 years.

Garrett Salpeter: So it’s it’s been an interesting journey and I definitely didn’t didn’t know this is what I’d be doing 10 or more years ago. And the initial catalyst for me was actually an experience I had as an as an ice hockey player. I played in college Division Three, mostly on the practice squad. But I had this this amazing experience where I had some torn ligaments in my wrist. I was supposed to be out for three months and have surgery. And I worked with a guy who was a chiropractic neurologist, and in working with him, and taking a functional neurology approach, as opposed to just a structural or tissue based approach that you would see in the traditional orthopedic or physical therapy right? You know, taking this this different approach, I was able to heal the ligaments in three weeks instead of three months, I was able to avoid surgery. And it really was a tremendous aha moment where I was was exposed to this approach and and saw firsthand how focusing on on the activation of the muscles and addressing these neurological patterns of protection and compensation that happened in the area around the injury. You know how focusing on that could actually make this profound impact. And so, you know, I was already doing my education and engineering I went on and continued and did graduate school and got a master’s in engineering. And with this experience that I had, I knew at the same time that I wanted to do something in this realm professionally. So I was able to find a way to to, I also went back and then did additional graduate work in neuroscience and has been able to combine everything but that that experience was a catalyst for me where I worked to open up a facility here in Austin over 10 years ago. Now and started in 150 square feet in the back of a different chiropractor’s office using older versions of electrical stimulation and some of these techniques from functional neurology, and, you know, it started to grow from there. And I just saw a lot of opportunities to improve the methods and the technology along the way. And that’s, that’s part of what led to the Neubie device as well. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, it’s really interesting. I want to talk more about the Neubie, but before we do that, you’ve blended a lot of techniques, whether it’s chiropractic or functional neuro or even soft tissue techniques to help, let’s say set the foundation so the newbie and the bioelectric healing that comes from it helps work better. Can you talk about some of the techniques that you use structurally before you really get that device moving with patient care?

Garrett Salpeter: Absolutely, that’s that’s a great question. And I think it’s worth mentioning that the framework that I’m using first, I think this is a little bit of a of a throwback to my idea. As an engineer, also where there’s this concept of the black box and engineering, we’re going to put inputs into the black box. And then we see outputs emerge. And we don’t necessarily know what happens in there, you know, it’s a theoretical construct. And in some ways, the body is like that. We know from neuroscience and from physiology and you know, there’s a lot of course that we know about the body. And, and yet, it also in some ways can be like this theoretical black box. And so what I’m what I’m thinking about in any technique that we’re evaluating, and using is, okay, we’re thinking of that technique as an input. And then we’re looking at what happens within the, the system, and then we will see what output we get on the other end. And if we’re giving the right input, we should see an increase in output. Right? What What I mean by that, just for for context, is you know, in the in the context of someone that we might work with, oftentimes when someone is injured or has surgery which is, you know, more intense form of injury, or, you know, trying to recover from something. It’s so interesting that, that it’s not always as much about the original incident or injury as it is about their response to that injury response to that trauma, and how the body guards and protects and braces, yes, around that injured area. And that’s, that’s a big part of why it takes so long to heal. Because you know, just the excessive tension can literally block the flow of blood and nutrients and raw materials that would your body would normally use to heal. It also causes these compensation patterns where since he’s trying to limit movement in certain areas, you develop these patterns of less and less movement over time and start to move away from and try to unload certain areas and hold the excessive tension in others.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: In other words, if someone hurts the right knee, they may develop compensation patterns on the hip superior to that or on the other side of the body to help teach slack off that injured knee essentially.

Garrett Salpeter: Exactly, yeah, they’re gonna try, you know, subconsciously without even realizing it, try to walk more on the other leg and get it right from that. And so, so there’s all these interesting things that happened in the response to injury. And and because of that, you know, it’s interesting, that’s the response the brain and the nervous system, actively limit and govern and hold, right in certain areas. You know, our brains number one priority is survival and protection. So our brains actually limit us more than more than trying to get us to do to do more and dude, do a lot you know, our brains want to get us to do less to make sure that we don’t move too far don’t move too fast don’t get hurt. And so, the this it sets up this very interesting, this very interesting input and output process where because the brain is such a such a profound influence that limits the output of the body. If we can find the right inputs to tell the brain, Hey, it’s okay to allow this muscle to stretch further. Or this movement to go faster or this person to start loading that light, again, that had the knee injury that you mentioned, whatever it is, if we can change those inputs, then there’s an opportunity to change outputs very, very quickly. Because when, when we’re talking about some of these changes that people make them into, and when we’re talking about some of these manual techniques, the one of the coolest things that happen is, you know, I’ll use a handheld dynamometer. So I’ll do a test on someone’s quad, you know, the lie down, I’ll push down. Yep, they may be at 50 pounds of force on one side. 25 on the other side, so you think, Oh, my gosh, we have to we have to double this person strengthen the injured leg. That sounds like it might take you know, I don’t know a periodized strength program. It might take 16 weeks it might take two years right. But we’ll do some of these techniques will work on so you know, to act to actually answer your question. Now, you know about some of the techniques will work on certain reflex points will work on areas where the brain is holding tension and protecting, trying to break through those deals. Defensive and protective patterns. And all of a sudden, in just a few minutes now that like there was a 25. Now, it’ll be at 50. It’ll be equal to the other side. And you’ll start to think, well, gosh, how could you double someone’s strength in the span of a few minutes? You know, it’s an impossibly short period of time for them to build muscle or make neurological adaptations or do the different things that we think of as needing to happen to increase strength. Obviously, all we did was tap into strength that was already there lying dormant. So it’s like we have this black box is somewhere in there as a reservoir of untapped strength, we give the right signal, and now they’re able to get more more strength out so it’s more of like a software than a hardware thing. But that’s so-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay. So it’s kind of like if someone has a backup generator in their house and they lose power. And now their house is relying on that backup generator. They may not be able to have the TV on they may only be able to use a couple of outlets, maybe keep the maybe keep the fridge going. They’re limited in regards to the electrical output. That generator versus if they’re, if they’re regular power reasons that sound right? So it’s kind of like, We’re going back to the regular power supply, which is providing a better, better, essentially input back into the muscle, which then allows the muscle to work better. Does that sound right?

Garrett Salpeter: That’s a great metaphor. And I would add to it by saying that, that it’s it’s not like the, it’s not like the power got turned off, you know by, by a flutter by lightning strike it’s like, it’s like, it’s like you purposefully went and turned off your main power breaker, be like, because the brain is intentionally turning off or reducing the output in certain areas, and then it can also choose to go turn it back on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So it sounds like if we’re relying on that backup generator, right, we wouldn’t go in there and try to put new wiring to the parts of the house that’s not working. In other words, we wouldn’t go to that muscle that has poor input from the brain and start to exercise it more. We actually want to fix The flow going from the brain down to that muscle, we don’t have to go exercise. So that’s kind of the different paradigm is, hey, that imbalance that you mentioned in the muscles. We don’t have to create this big strength program, we can just work on that neurological input to that muscle, and then things start to magically balance out. Without having to do that. Is that what you’re saying?

Garrett Salpeter: That’s exactly what I’m saying. I think that’s, I think that’s a wonderful way of saying and I hope that’s something I think it is something that would resonate with a lot of people. And so when we think about these different types of manual techniques, or using the new beer, anything that we’re using, we’re trying to find the strategic, highest impact inputs that we can use with somebody in order to create more output. And so so some of those techniques or you know, different manual techniques, like you mentioned, we use a blend of different things from from applied kinesiology, osteopathic chiropractic traditions. Yep. You know, a blend of different things. And that’s that framework is you know, it could be it. You know what, there’s a lot range of inputs, you could give somebody as long as you’re getting an improved output, then you’re you’re doing the right thing or you’re doing something that is beneficial for that person and their nervous system, and is allowing them to tap into more of the potential that they have. That’s just lying dormant

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. And that’s one of the things I think that sets you apart from other people that provide technology, there’s an education, let’s say that sets the foundation for to work better. So I know at your clinic in Austin, you see patients virtually, you also offer that device for people virtually and then clinicians as well. And then you also offer that training. So I think it’s important because when I would see patients, and that you were if you were to just do the device without setting the foundation with those blend of techniques, the results are good, but not quite too great. So I just want to highlight there’s a educational aspect that sets the foundation that allows the technology to work better, so some people are just shiny object, but if you can marry the two, I think it’s gonna work a lot better for anyone listening?

Garrett Salpeter: Absolutely, I’d say, you know, it’s part of what we’ve believed to be a complete system in terms of assessments and manual therapeutic interventions and and work on the device. So. So it’s definitely something where you know, every part adds a meaningful piece to the overall equation. And I think this the whole is greater than the sum of the parts even.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct. And I think the results speak for themselves. We’ll talk a little bit more about the tech and I want you to give us a demo here as well. I know you had a patient a few years back, you posted the progression on your YouTube channel and the patient had had an ACL injury. And the typical ACL injury repair time is usually 9 to 12 months conventionally. I know you had this person within three to four months back on the field, which is amazing. And I just think those kind of case studies are what resonates with people and really, it’s like, okay, you’re the proofs in the pudding.

Garrett Salpeter: Yeah, so that, you know, there’s A few different stories like that, that we’ve had. And I’ll, I’ll caution you know, there are people that that are resistant to go back to to go back to sport or activity ahead of schedule because they’re concerned about graph tooling. And so you know, I don’t want any of this to come off as kind of pressure anyone to go out and do anything they’re uncomfortable with. However, however, I’ll certainly share this, you know, this story because I think it’s instructive. One of these that comes to mind is a girl that we worked with young young woman who was senior in high school was already set to go to college to play division, one softball and her senior year. She was skiing over spring break, or Christmas break on New Year’s Day. She tore her ACL. She had surgery middle of January, so about January 15. And they told her that she was going to be out for at least seven months just to forget about her high school softball season, and to focus on going and playing college, you know, she’d be able to go Go started college in the fall and be joined the team and everything like that. And yet she loved her high school teammates, and she wanted to see if it was possible to play at all during her high school softball season that spring. And so we started working with her, her mom did some research online found us and they drove across town and saw started working with us a few days a week. And, you know, long story short, she made significant progress. She met all of her milestones a lot faster, she was off crutches and a few days instead of a few weeks, she our range of motion returned in a few weeks, instead of a couple months, her strength levels were back in, you know, six to eight weeks instead of, you know, four months. And so she just was meeting all these milestones faster. And at the three month mark, her surgeon who’s generally a very conservative person who said he would never clear anyone before six months. Her surgeon looked at her and said, Wow, this is the most stable knee I’ve ever seen at this range. And then You know, they were having a conversation and he actually cleared her just before just right at three, three and a half between three and four months he cleared or to go out and play. And so in the middle of April, she rejoins her team, as they’re getting ready for the state playoffs, the state softball playoffs here in Texas and she actually leads her team to win a state championship and high school softball season that that she was supposed to miss entirely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That is amazing. I love stories. I love stories like that. And I’ll put a link here below people listening. If anyone’s interested in this technology as a patient, even virtually if you’re like, man, do I have someone nearby that can help me with this kind of things. There may be virtual people that can help you on Garrett’s team as well. Or if you’re interested in the technology, I’ll put a link down here below, and then we have a promotion near /justinhealth. And I’ll put the link down below so if you guys are driving and you can’t quite get to I’ll put that down below for you guys and just if you even have questions about the technology, that could be a great place to get it, you know, answer specifically. So getting back to what you’re talking about Garrett, the thing that I like is the technology from what I see is accelerating healing and blood flow to these tissues that are a vascular, right? They don’t get a lot of blood supply, therefore, it takes forever to heal, right? Anyone that’s maybe pull the muscle muscle can heal in a couple days to a couple of weeks. But cartilage and tendons and ligaments can take months. So you have this technology that’s really driving blood flow, you’re working on these compensation patterns to get muscles working better. And thus those muscles now are absorbing force. So instead of that force going into the sensitive tissue, like tendons and ligaments, now you have muscles that are acting like better, smarter shock absorbers, is that correct?

Garrett Salpeter: I think that’s I think that’s a good way to put it. Yeah. And in terms of terms of blood flow. It’s definitely the case as you mentioned, that muscles can heal faster. And I think that makes sense because we’re used to you know, people would go to the gym, and I think most people would That, you know, if the muscles are sore get broken down at all, you know, they’re repaired in 48 to 72 hours. So the body is regularly breaking down and rebuilding muscles. So of course, it’s easier, there’s a, there’s a process in place for that. So it’s easier to repair muscle injuries more and more challenging definitely to repair those tendon and ligament injuries. And, and that’s that is such a key to it is that the muscles have to be able to turn on and create stability because if they don’t, then we end up bracing against or collapsing into those more passive structures. And that’s how those tendons and ligaments and discs and cartilage that’s how they get injured. And so I think that there’s a whole there is a whole component to this work that can be protective or pre emptive or proactive, where we can work with somebody. And actually, by identifying the same dysfunctions that we would treat to help them if they were injured. We can identify those dysfunctions and help them move better help them perform better and make them more resistant to injury in the First place. And that’s, you know, when you talk about absorbing force, that’s one of the most important principles there. And this is one of the differentiating factors between the Neubie, you know, between our technology and what else is out there in this in this space and these types of modalities is that most for instance alternating current devices typically as a signal goes volleys back and forth causes muscles to contract co contract fight against each other so, so it teaches you to move like if you’re driving your car hitting a throttle and the brake pedal at the same time, you’re resisting your own.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Ah, yes, and so like with what kick though, just people kind of know about 10 devices, right? It’s kind of like a like electricity aspirin ,right? And that’s kind of the set the brake and the gas pedal at the same time and how’s your electric current different.

Garrett Salpeter: So, a 10s unit, it is like an electronic aspirin the way most people use it, that’s a great, great way to put it. They usually just put it on at a mild setting to try to distract or mask some of the nerve receptors that They go up to the brain that trigger ultimately within the brain the experience of pain. And so it’s like, it’s like a distraction. It’s like, it’s like if you have a headache, he’s, you know, do something to your foot or you don’t feel your head anymore because you’re feeling your foot. And yeah, it’s like something, something like that. But yeah, when if you turn it up to a high enough level to really make a difference in neuromuscular re education, in loading muscles and challenging muscles and teaching them to work in a new way, by actually activating underlying nerve pathways. If you did that, then you’d run into these these hurdles or these roadblocks, where you’d be causing the muscles to fight against each other because of that, that signal volleying back and forth alternating current, and how that interacts with the nervous system. So that In contrast, the direct current device to show you the the neubie, so when we’re using that- 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’m sorry, can you can you put it up one more time when I spoke it, the video went to me go head, try again.

Garrett Salpeter: Yeah, so that’s so we’re using that there. So this puts out a unique direct current signal. And when that when that direct current signal is only going in one direction, it causes a much more controlled input of sensory pathways in the nervous system and a lot less of those contractions and co contractions. And if we’re talking about, you know, certainly injury recovery, but even this, this notion of proactively helping make someone more resistant to injury, that’s so important because remember, we want to be able to bend but not break, we want to be pliable and resilient. And so if we’re, if we’re stiff, then that means we’re more likely to break and not bend, we’re more likely to snap and get those injuries. Whereas if we can use technology like this, to amplify that ability of the body, to make the muscles more supple, make the tissues more pliable. That’ll ultimately make the body more resilient. And I think that that shock absorber metaphor that you mentioned, is a good way to do that. So that so this can actually help us re educate the the neuromuscular system to become more more pliable so that we’re not resisting our own movements, we’re better able to lengthen those muscles to accommodate greater ranges of motion, and to absorb force and protect those other structures of the body.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. Let me summarize. So you have a current that’s going to be a direct current that’s more harmonious with the body. That’s like hitting just the gas pedal where an alternating current, which is what you see maybe with the 10s unit is like hitting the gas pedal in the brake the same time and it’s more just, it’s like white noise. And in a room where people are talking, it’s just kind of covering up that chatter, that pain input, where this is actually providing stimulation for oxygenation, which helps tissues heal, it’s driving blood flow as well which provides nutrition in and pulls inflammation out. And then you’re also and I know a little bit guys because I did this technique when I had a physical office for many years, I believe in it, I wouldn’t be sharing it with you guys, if I thought it was something that wouldn’t be beneficial. When you are doing scanning of the device, you’re also finding specific compensation patterns. So we’re not just smacking a pattern input onto a muscle, we’re specifically scanning. So we can find those areas that that aren’t communicating well. So there’s a specific way to target that. And I really want you to show that and I also want to highlight one thing with the newbie, that’s amazing. There’s double the amount of outputs that you would typically see on other devices. And this is what makes it awesome is with other devices, you’d have to have two machines to do what you can do a one I think that’s really, really profound as a clinician, you don’t think about it. But it’s, it’s amazing if you’re treating patients upper body or lower or patient at the same time. It’s really cool.

Garrett Salpeter: Yeah, absolutely. So there’s some, definitely some features and functions that make it user friendly, just from a clinician day to day perspective in terms of that scanning process that I’m glad you mentioned that because that is a huge part of that that neuromuscular re education puzzle, where, first of all, you need to figure out what the heck to re educate in the first place, right. And so this goes back to the, the response to trauma and how the brain and nervous system are oriented towards survival and protection. And that’s why our brains limit us in so many ways. And so if I, you know, for instance, if I’m scanning around on the body with something like this, if I’m scanning around, I’m going to be sending because of the unique effects of the direct current, and how it impacts the nervous system, I’m going to be sending the same signals as if that muscle is being loaded, as if that muscle is being challenged as if that muscle is lifting weights or if that muscle is stretching, and I’m going to be sending these same inputs. And wherever the wherever the muscles are working well, my brain will will see that input and it’ll just say, Oh, yeah, that’s it. Just you know, Garrett’s arm doing its thing, or that’s just that bicep doing what it normally does, there’s nothing threatening or, or you know anything about this that needs to be addressed or, you know, no reason to protect against it. And then if I get to an area here, where the brain is actually limiting output, because it because of either learned disuse from bad patterns over time, or because of a traumatic injury, where I have one of those compensation patterns, and my brain is saying, No, no, don’t move there. If I scan over an area like that, then that signal is actually going to be perceived as threatening, that’s going to be saying, whoa, you’re loading an area at at 40 that I only want to be at 20. And the brain is going to say that’s threatening and it’s going to trigger this output. So it’ll it’ll feel like, like a trigger point or something like that. But actually, you’ll actually notice something that’s distinct and different in certain areas. And so that’s how we know where exactly the brain is imposing those patterns and where we need to change that. pattern in order to optimize function, and to basically get rid of the impediments that are that are blocking the healing process, so you can get the blood flow there. So you can get, you know, open the floodgates so the body can send those healing resources and the healing process can progress as it should.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think that’s really interesting, because with other devices, like a 10s unit, for instance, you’re just going to smack it on the muscle, there’s not going to be really scanning involved to be ultra specific. And what’s really interesting is sometimes where you think the pain is, let’s say your lower back, you may scan there, but a lot of the hotspots that come back that are more sensitive when you scan may not necessarily be exactly where the pain is. And that’s kind of pulled back into this whole compensation pattern where the compensation may be in a different area than the pain is expressing.

Garrett Salpeter: Absolutely, absolutely. So there’s there’s two things I was in more than two, but there’s, you know, in the response to injury, there’s the original, the original response. So there’s the original insult. And then there’s the response to that. And the response can happen in many areas around that it can happen on the same side, the opposite side. And in synergistic, or antagonist muscles, it can happen in other tissues and other areas that can happen. Like you originally said, you know, if you, if you’re injured knee on one side, you might just start loading the other side more in general. So it can lead to things much further down the chain. And being able to have a process like this where we can map the body and identify where these issues are, it allows us to kind of fill in the gaps and figure out where those where those patterns where those problems, you know, are presenting or you know, where they’ve traveled to, and help really just kind of do it in a very methodical way to work on those issues.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s excellent. Would you mind showing the Neubie again, and just kind of showing where it’s a little bit unique with some of these extra outputs? I think it’s really fascinating.

Garrett Salpeter: Yeah, so we’ve got four there, they’re color coded just for convenience. And the-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Most would only have to like make the most would only have maybe that green and the yellow. But then with your new technology, you’ve really modified it to provide extra output.

Garrett Salpeter: Extra outputs. Yeah. And so, you know, we have either physical therapy clinics or professional sports teams or university athletic departments where they’ll have one of these on a station, or it’s usually like on a carton in the therapy room. And they can have one patient or one athlete using this side of the machine, another patient on the other side of the machines, they can actually have two, two patients working on the same machine. And there’s a range of presets for more mapping and the more therapeutic or for different work, that would be more in the fitness and performance realm still still based in in the process of neuromuscular re education. But would it be more of a little bit of a different use case. And so there’s ability to move between and among those settings and one of the things that actually is in our first first patent on this, on this technology is the ability to move between preferentially contracting In preferentially lengthening or relaxing muscle Wow. And so you know in a in a session for example, we can actually help someone contract their muscles to really challenge and build strength in a very targeted powerful way. And then we can help relax those muscles so they can recover between sets of an exercise help replenish helps you know send more blood flow to the area replenish some of the energy and get ready and then go do it again do another set of the exercise and and challenge the muscles there and so you know, you can contract and then you got to lengthen back out to prepare those muscles to contract again. And so we can we can even do switch between those those settings within a session sometimes. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That is awesome. Is there anything else that I mean you have amazing athletes. I mean, you posted on your Instagram a professional hockey player doing some of your exercise routine just just yesterday. I thought that was pretty amazing. I know you’ve had Trent Dilfer, a Super Bowl, quarterback come down there and get training as well. What are some of the biggest things that separate you or entice a lot of these professional athletes to work with you? Is it just the fact that they want to get better faster? They’re in pain, and they’re and they’re having a hard time recovering? Is that a performance thing? What’s their motivation? And what’s separating you from most of your competitors? 

Garrett Salpeter: That’s, that’s a good question. So thankfully, this has caught on in a few different places, one of which is with elite and professional athletes. And for them, a lot of the value proposition is in the results and the speed at which they’re able to see results because we’ve, we’ve probably all had the experience, please, most of us listening to this have had the experience of going in and doing therapy, you know, for some injury for some pain, and with traditional physical therapy, you know, sometimes it feels like, you know, sometimes it feels like a middle where they’re just trying to get as many people through as they can. There’s not much attention. Sometimes it feels like going through the motions. Sometimes it feels like we’re doing something for the sake of doing Something and no one’s really expecting to see a tangible result from that session. Certainly there’s there’s many forward thinking practitioners and people that, that, that care as much as we do about results, and so I’m not describing everybody by any means, but but there is a, you know, I would say a big opportunity for improvement in the traditional therapeutic practices. And so, so that’s the differentiating factor. A lot of times as you know, we’ll have athletes will have a separated shoulder like a grade two AC separation, for example, can’t lift their arm pass here, and it’s painful, and in one session, there’ll be up there, unbelievable overhead. And so, so that sometimes it’s just the you know, the dramatic nature and immediate nature of the results that that cause someone to believe like, oh, wow, this is really powerful. And then you know, then they tell their, their friends and teammates and colleagues and, you know, I can kind of grow from there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s excellent and you provide amazing education on it. On the functional neurological aspect and of course you have the newer technology. This may create a lot of questions for listeners again, we’ll put that link down below We’ll put that link down below. Garrett and his team would be happy to answer any questions that you guys have. Or if you’re, you know what this whole coronavirus, lockdown people aren’t able to go out and I know you offer that care where you can do it in house where you can mail out a device as well, which could be really convenient during this time, especially if people are in pain or just trying to heal and and exercise and not have to do it in a gym setting. So this is a great option for y’all.

Garrett Salpeter: Absolutely, yeah, that’s something that we know most of the time people have been doing it with a practitioner in, you know, no local physical therapy clinic chiropractic office, integrative medical practice. However, during a time like this, we’ve been working to make even more we know we’ve had people for whom we’ve already had to do it. So there’s a great model in place, and I think it’s being emphasized even more being able to do remotely at home. And so we have, you know, infrastructure in place to be able to accommodate people and, and get most of the results, you know, a vast majority of what we can do in person can still be done remotely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s excellent. And what’s your opinion in in incorporating stem cell technology with more severe injuries in what you do? Have you tried that? Have you seen that? What’s your opinion?

Garrett Salpeter: That’s a great question. So we have a few practices that are using the newbie in a in a practice where they do a lot of PRP or stem cell and regenerative injections. So we have some, some really good use cases showing that the combination can can really be fabulous. And I look at it as when we’re trying to help someone recover from from chronic pain from injury, structural tissue damage, there’s two aspects that we need to work on. There’s, of course, the structural piece, if there’s damage, we want that to be fixed. And there’s also the functional piece where when there’s this function when people aren’t using those areas of their body, they need to relearn how to how to do that. And if you’re if you’re giving someone stem cells or exosomes or PRP, that can be a fabulous intervention to help them regrow or heal or regenerate on the structural side. And yet, if we don’t also address the functional piece, there’s a good chance that they might just reinjure re damage that area. Again, they’ve invested thousands of dollars in stem cells, but because, you know, they’re still collapsing into their knee into their knee joint in the same way, they’re just going to reinjure it. So if they can also work on the functional side, then that can complement the the injections are the regenerative work that they’re doing. And the two seem to work together very well. I think there’s also a really cool bridge, because conceptually, when you’re when you’re giving someone PRP or stem cells, you know, part of what you’re trying to do is actually irritate the target tissue with the needle, so that you trigger the body’s own natural healing. Right, exactly, exactly. Yeah. So you trigger that that local inflammation and the cascade of different chemical processes to heal that tissue. And one of the things that we’ve seen is that the newbie helps the body heal so much more efficiently from injury, it also can help the body heal more efficiently from that little bit of injury that was intentionally and purposefully induced by the needle. And so the the two, it seems like, again, can be can be synergistic, and I think complimentary in a way that leads to better overall outcomes based- 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That makes sense. In other words, if we take this analogy and translate it to cars, if we were to do a stem cell injection that helps heal or it makes their their tire more fancy or better looking or heal faster, but the suspension or the axle or the whole shock system isn’t fixed. Those are the compensation patterns. Eventually that tire will wear down again in the future. So we’re trying to get to the upstream issue. And if we combine the two, it’s all it’ll be better.

Garrett Salpeter: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you got it. You got to work on both and any approach that doesn’t address both is gonna leave some Sort of shortfall somewhere?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s excellent. Garrett, is there anything else you want to leave the listeners with today?

Garrett Salpeter: So, I believe, very, very strongly that the most powerful and transformative way to help people recover from pain and injury is to focus on the nervous system and work on these areas that we’ve been talking about. And I’ve seen people recover from incredible things like we’ve seen people use our technology to, you know, to regain function to get out of wheelchairs or start walking again, after spinal cord injuries or start moving again, after debilitating bouts with MS or things like that. And, and so, you know, even if someone doesn’t, doesn’t work with us or any of our practitioners, I really want to shift the dialogue and start introducing into dialogue, the nervous system and how powerful working with the nervous system can be and how empowering it can be. And I want people to know that if you’re in If you’re facing chronic pain or you’re having trouble getting back to function or if you’re frustrated because you can’t play basketball and tennis with your kids because of because your joints always hurt, you know, there there can be solutions out there. And I would just encourage people to look at this the power of this functional neurology approach and how it can help certainly with pain and movement and also things related to the autonomic nervous system and just there’s there’s a whole range of things that because the nervous system controls so much about the body, now just just you know, think, think neurology. I think if I had to summarize it in two words.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it. That’s excellent. So for anyone listening here, that’s from the Austin area wants to travel down to Austin. Garrett’s got a great clinic right on the 360 Highway in West Lake right near the Rudy’s Barbecue is anyone from Austin knows 360 and Rudy’s they’ll know exactly where that is. And then if you guys want to reach out to anyone- 

Garrett Salpeter: If you’re not in Austin, you’ll be amazed to know that one of the best barbecue places actually inside a gas station. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It is. If anyone wants to fly in you got the gas station next door with some great barbecue. And if you guys want to reach out we have that special link for you guys today we’ll put it down below so you guys can click. And if you want to get more information on Garrett’s educational programs, click there. If you want to get information on the device, click there or being a patient or being a patient virtually all that’s going to be there for you, Garrett, anything else?

Garrett Salpeter: So that is you mentioned the educational piece that is one thing that you know, we definitely take very seriously that for clinicians who will get our device we have a whole certification education program with continuing education and ongoing support. And that’s something that you know, if you are a practitioner, we’d love to share with you because you know, the device is good. And yet, without the knowledge, it wouldn’t be nearly as good. So the system and the thinking behind it is something that we love to share with people as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And I’ll give Garrett a pat in the back air as a PhD candidate at UT studying this time. Technology at a PhD level and obviously as clinics have gotten so big he’s prioritizing his patients over that now, but Garrett has a higher level of understanding that we’re not even talking about here, because we want to keep it simple. So Garrett, the main man to reach out for more education on that Garrett, thanks so much for being part of the podcast.

Garrett Salpeter: Thank you, Dr. Justin. It was a pleasure. I really appreciate it. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thank you. Take care.


Audio Podcast:

Improving Mitochondrial Function | Podcast #222

Today’s episode talks about mitochondrial health. Listen as Dr. Justin and Dr. Tim, a doctorate of Physical Therapy (DPT), a nutritional biochemist and functional endocrinologist engage in an informative discussion about improving the mitochondria, ways to protect the DNA on the mitochondrial side from oxidative stress and damage and importance of Superoxide Dismutase (SOD).

Watch the video and answer the questions about genetic markers that we need to look at to gleam a predisposition of having mitochondrial stress or dysfunction, learn the effects of glutathione deficiency and superoxide dismutase, and many more!

Dr. Tim Jackson


In this episode, we cover:

00:17    Genetic Markers

01:42    Ways to Protect DNA from Oxidative Stress and Damage

09:55    Carnitine

15:31    Three Pronged Approach: Repair, Protect and Fuel

29:06    Glutathione S-transferase Mu


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey there it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Today, we have Dr. Tim Jackson in the house, we are doing a podcast on mitochondrial health, how to improve your mitochondria. Dr. Tim, welcome to the podcast my man!

Dr. Tim Jackson: Dr. Justin, thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good. Well, what’s going on there? We were talking about some genetic test, uhm, pre-called with one of my patients, you gave me some good feedback, I appreciate that. Let’s dive in to some genetic markers that we can look at to maybe gleam a predisposition for having some mitochondrial stress or dysfunction. What would those be?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, uh, looking at superoxide dismutase or SOD-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -polymorphisms, uh, along with polymorphisms in the glutathione pathway, whether it’s uh, GSTN uhm or GPX, uh because both glutathione and Superoxide Dismutase are the two bodyguards that sit in front of your mitochondria. Uhm, our nuclear DNA is protected by histones and so is not as susceptible to oxidative damage.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And what are histones?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Histones are just proteins uhm, that help, uh, kinda coil up uh-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -the DNA, and uh, organize it and also protect it. Uh, and mitochondrial DNA uh, does not have those, so it’s kind of sitting out uh-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Aah…

Dr. Tim Jackson: -alone by itself. And if you’re deficient in glutathione and superoxide dismutase, then uh, it’s much easier for the mitochondria to become damaged.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So regular DNAs has histones which protect that coil up around the DNA, but mitochondrial DNA does not have histones that make it more vulnerable, is that correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Ok, got it. So, what does that mean? What can we do to protect our DNA on the mitochondrial side, uhm, form oxidative stress and damage?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, obviously, you know, looking at things like stealth infections, mold, dysbiosis, blood sugar imbalances, all of those uhm, will create inflammation and ultimately stress the mitochondria-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uh but in order to, you know, protect it and upregulate the SOD compound or superoxide dismutase and glutathione, uh, we can use things that upregulate NRF2. And NRF2 is just uh ce- cellular control switch, uhm that is responsible for detoxifying, uh, certain compounds-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -but also upregulating your antioxidant, your endogenous antioxidant production. So if we can do things that control many different reactions-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -that’s a lot better than going, you know, tip-for-tat, trying to uhm, you know, correct imbalances.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, got it. So let’s repeat those nutrients. So, obviously, superoxide dismutase is a- is a big one, and where can we get that supplementally?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, there are several companies that have uh, SOD, uhm, in the capsule or tablet. Uh, I haven’t seen any good data on how terrible it is, uhm, so, I try to do things that will upregulate it upstream, uhm, instead of just uh, you know, trying to absorb even in the uh- and optimally helping gut, I don’t know how will absorb SOD would be. Uh, but if you upregulate NRF2, and things- plenty of things can do that. Uh, but one that’s specific to the mitochondria is molecular-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -hydrogen. And molecular hydrogen- what makes it so unique, is that it’s-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -really tiny. So it can get to where we need it to go, which is in the mitochondria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: It- it helps to stab in the nasty- really nasty free radical called peroxynitrite.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And not only that, it stimulates the production and creation of new mitochondria, which the only other things to do that are exercise and PQQ.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent, very good. What about fasting? How much does fasting have an impact on the mitochondria?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, it has a tremendous impact uhm, in terms of upregulating, you know, autophagy, cleaning the cells-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uh, that sort of thing. Uh, the only thing I would caution with fasting is that, you know, if someone’s HPA, thyroid, gut, vanadyl axis [crosstalk], and uh, you fast, then that may in fact worsen their metabolism and metabolic rate.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that’s a thing. I see a lot of people with adrenal issues and also thyroid issues, and they may even have some blood sugar stuff, and they’re hearing all the rage of fasting that people getting lots of benefits but that may actually exacerbate their issues, right, it can increase the HPA-TA, or, you know, increase that stress and it can even potentially lower thyroid hormone more by increasing reversed T3.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, yeah, absolutely. And uh, lot of times, you know, you can develop hypothyroid symptoms-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, adrenal insufficiency-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -and/or cortisol resistance.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. Good. So, we have- you mentioned- was that the molecular hydrogen you mentioned- you mentioned the superoxide dismutase, correct? Uh-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Err- what about various compounds like resveratrol or curcumin, what do you think about them? How do they do with the mitochondria?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, curcumin works on uh, control switch called NF-kappa-beta. And basically, uh, you know, genes generally aren’t turned completely on or off, it’s more-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -like adjusting the volume on your stereo. And so, curcumin helps downregulate NF-kappa-beta-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -and that results in less inflammatory markers which is-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -cytokines-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uh, TNF-alpha, ___[05:48]. And so, curcumin, uh, works, uh, on several levels. It upregulates glutathione by up to 600%-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uh, it downregulates NF-kappa-beta, so-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -you’re not giving the inflammatory stress. And that’s also has some antimicrobial properties. And, uh, not to get too far off topic but certain viruses can get- retroviruses can get stuck in the mitochondria. And if- if you have a patient, or if you’re someone who- you’ve been taking a lot of CoQ10, you’ve been taking lot of carnitine, you might even have done IV-NAD, and you didn’t felt benefit, then it means your mitochondria are damaged and we need to repair them. Uhm, and you tell me when you want me to go into the three pronged approach of how to heal the mitochondria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great, excellent. So is there anythi- other supplements you can- you can highlight before we dive into that? What about resveratrol? People have talked about that. What’s your take on resveratrol?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, uhm- it- it’s not very absorbed, uhm-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -by most companies. Uhm, you know, even if you add uh-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -___[07:01] to it, or black pepper. Uh there was a company that had transdermal resveratrol-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -but I think the vinyl FDH shut them down. Uhm but I think there are a few products out there uhm, that have liposomal resveratrol.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, you know, that would be better absorbed, for sure. Uhm, but yeah, I mean, it works on multiple levels, it can help, you know, with hormone metabolism, uhm, and free radical stress-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -anti-aging, so many things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Any other supplements you wanna highlight, kinda low-hanging fruit nutrients, you wanna make note of?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- B- well, I would say, you know, L-carnitine, or Acetylcarnitine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, you know, if you had certain polymorphisms, you might not be able to carry fatty acids into the mitochondria-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -where they get burned for energy-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -what we call beta-oxidation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so Acetylcarnitine is like an uber for fatty acids-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: American shuttle.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly. And so, you know, that’s a supplement that uhm, helps mitochondrial health, helps improve metabolism, uhm it can help burn fat, uhm, energy production, etc. So, yeah, I would say that- that’s definitely low-hanging fruit. Uhm, and then, you know, the molecular hydrogen, you’re not to harp on that too much but it- it does so many different things. Uhm-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How do you get the molecular hydrogen? I know you mentioned Cindy Crawford has a skin-care line with those compounds in it. I know you mentioned there’s a molecular hydrogen machine that you’ve been supporting and using for a while.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How we can get more molecular hydrogen into our body?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, uh, the company trusii, T-R-U-S-I-I, uh, there’s many companies offering molecular hydrogen machines. But this company, uhm, they have a- a really great machine, uhm depending on how much you’ll wanna spend, uhm you just add reverse osmosis or ___[09:08] as water. And it’s- uhm, add some molecular hydrogen to it, uhm, so you don’t have to keep buying out the supplement, you know, every month. It’s a better alternative investment in my opinion. Uhm, the more expensive machine also contains a nasal cannula-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -so you can breathe that in, uhm, and molecular hydrogen. So the highest concentration of mitochondria is in our nervous system.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: The second co- highest concentration is in our heart. Uhm, and so, by improving uh, mitochondrial function, we can improve brain health, brain fog, fatigue, uhm, you know, difficulty concentrating, and also, uhm, have better for fusion to our tissues, because we have better cardiac output.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, interesting, very good. Awesome. Uh, one thing I wanted to highlight too, you were talking about carnitine a minute ago. Carnitine is important because there’s key amino acids you need to make it. Methionine and lysine are really important ones, and a lot of those amino acids are missing in vegetarian type diets. So if you’re not eating animal products, we are not getting supplemental amino acids while being vegetarian, it may be hard- you’d be missing some of those key nutrients that are important for making carnitine. [Crosstalk]

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. And the process of methylation, uh, which is you know, collection of a hundred and- or almost 200 different uh reactions in the body. Uh, helps reduce CoQ10 and the L-carnitine. And so if you’re deficient in B12 or methyl folate, or your methylation cycles disrupted because of uh heavy metals or environmental pollutants, then you won’t create as much endogenous uhm L-carnitine and CoQ10.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. And can you talk more about methylation. So, a methyl group is a carbon in 3 hydrogen. So essentially hen we methylate, we’re just binding those compounds, uhm, to whatever that reaction is, whether it’s neurotransmitters or B-Vitamins. Can you talk kinda more about it like, what does that really- what’s really happening kinda at a biochemical level inside of our cells when we’re methylating and- and where does this happen?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, so it happens uhm, and all the cells in the body and it involves no just B12 and methyl folate but all the other B-Vitamins, as well as-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -mineral cofactors such as magnesium and zinc. Uhm, and-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -you know, you probably heard of supplements like TMG or DMG-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, those are-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk]

Dr. Tim Jackson: -yeah those are major methyl burners uhm that have been shown to improve cognitive function. Uhm, but methylation is responsible for everything from detoxification, to producing glutathione to uh, producing certain immune cells, the CD4, CD8, T-helper, T-suppressor cells. Uhm, and also, metabolism of your estrogens. So-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -if you’re not methylating your estrogens, you tend to recycle or reabsorb them. And uh, you know, methylation can get turned off, uh, independent of any polymorphisms, you know. But if you have polymorphisms and uh methylation or MTHFR, then that certainly uhm, you know tells us that you at some point, you know, in the right context, need both B12 and methyl folate along with the other B-Vitamins.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And so what’s happening in the body? These nutrients are- are- they’re affecting obviously brain chemicals or affecting detoxification like, what’s happening? Like, just to keep it simple.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, so, basically adding a methyl group, uhm, helps with the creation of glutathione, but you’re also getting neurotransmitters like ___[12:54]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -to turn into dopamine, produce.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, there’s a condition called cerebral folate deficiency, where uh, due to certain antibodies, uhm, you might have uh, enough, uhm methylfolate or folinic acid in your cells but it might not be in the cerebral spinal fluid.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And uhm there are a couple labs I think that test for it now, it used to be mostly research-based, uhm but those people to need higher doses of methylfolate-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.


Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm with the other thing with uh B12 is that it needs a- a transporter, a mover. So, lithium orotate, the trace mineral, not the psychotropic drug but, it helps uhm transport vitamin B12.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, very cool. I know you mentioned that on- on our last podcast we did together. That’s very good. So we have this carbon-hydrogens, then we need all these nutrients, trimethylglycine or- or HCL, essentially betaines gonna have a lot of that in there. Our methylating B-Vitamins like B6, B9, B12, ideally, we’re having uhm folate, not folic acid, we’re having methylated or LMTHF folate, we also may be doing choline like B1, like riboflavin, thiamine, nycine as well.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, uhm all the B’s, biotin, etc., uhm all need to be there for the methylation cycle to occur. Uhm, and, you know, you could- there are many polymorphisms that we won’t give into that can affect the methylation cycle outside of MTHFR. Uhm, so, you know, it’s really ab- about the environment and the terrain that determines whether these-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -polymorphisms expressed or not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Alright, so let’s go dive into your 3-prong approach. So, what does that look like and- and how do you apply that clinically with your patients?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, basically, err, we’ve been taught that you know, okay, give more CoQ10, give more carnitine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And let- let’s say you have a ferrari, and the transmission’s out. Putting more gasoline in the gas tank is not gonna help the-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -transmission. And that’s what you’re doing when you’re just giving CoQ10 or carnitine. And that’s okay uh, but you have to adjust the other aspects and one of them we mentioned earlier, and that’s uh, protecting the mitochondria. How do we protect them? We make sure we have adequate glutathione, reduced glutathione, not oxidized glutathione, and uh optimal levels of SOD or superoxide dismutase.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Okay, got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, the 3-pronged approach is protect the mitochondria, the antioxidants, provide mitochondrial fuel, you know with L-carnitine, CoQ10 etc.-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: PQQ.

Dr. Tim Jackson: PQQ, NAD, uh nicotine ___[15:47]-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -a- all those things. And then the 3rd of uh aspect or 3rd uhm, prong of the approach is to repair the mitochondrial membranes. And so those get damaged from inflammation, and also certain pesticides and petrochemicals, and uhm, you can use different supplements uhm that have high doses of phospholipids, uhm, ___[16:14] in them to help remodel the mitochondria, and uh, you know, it’s been studied in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, uhm to help the mitochondria for sure-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, so the 3 pronged approach, just to summarize is, protect the mitochondria with glutathione superoxide dismutase, repair the mitochondrial membranes with uhm NT factor energy, or uhm, uh group of phospholipids that are gonna rehab or rehabilitate mitochondrial membrane, and then provide mitochondrial fuel via CoQ10, carnitine, PQQ, NAD, etc.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. So, repair, protect, and fuel. So, protection is glutathione, antioxidants. Would curcumin also fall into that category too?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Curcumin, uhm helps to upregulate glutathione-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So I guess it could right ’cause glutathione’s uh antioxidant. So, would it kinda have some protection qualities, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, absolutely. And because it lowers uh inflammatory markers-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uh that’s gonna put less oxygenated stress on the mitochondria-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Good. Excellent-

Dr. Tim Jackson: -and-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -so that’s the protection. Then on the fuel, that’s like B-Vitamins, CoQ10, carnitine, PQQ and then with- with like the niagen or the- the nicotinamide compounds fit into that category?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh they- uh could uh potentially but I think of them more as uh mitochondrial fuel.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh that’s more- yeah, fuel, that’s in- in that fuel, yup. Correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And so, uhm you know, the- they can definitely help and you know, in the clinic we’d use uh IV-NAD, it’s great for uh drug detox-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It burns though doesn’t it?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, it should be between a 6- and 8-hour drip, and you have to do it 10 days consecutively, you can’t miss a day. Uhm, and that can help for example people who’d take in the antibiotics that fall under the 4-Quinolone-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: [Crosstalk]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Lot of damage.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, lot of damage. So, IV-NAD, coupled with the NT factor energy, uhm can help the mitochondria for sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then on the- so you have the repair side which is like a lot of the- so we have the protect which is lot of the antioxidants, the fuel is more of the nutrients we just mentioned, the NAD, the B-Vitamins and CoQ10, carnitine. And then repair, it was- it was- I’m sorry, protect, fuel and then repair. And the repair is gonna be more glutathione, and a more sulfur amino, correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So the repairs are gonna be more of the NT factor energy, the phospholipid complex-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Phospholipids. Okay, and then how-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What does that mean supplement wise? What supplements would you look for, and then what foods, what good phospholipids can we eat in our diet- consume in our diet that will help?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, well so, uh anything uh, like sunflower, lecithin, as a supplement-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -to the health but, there’s actually a product called uh NT-factor energy-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, ___[19:15] helped developed it. And uh certain, you know, chemicals and pesticides can get lodged into the mitochondria. And according to him, uh the NT-factor energy can take up to a year that can help displace some of these chemicals from the mitochondria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good, excellent. I love that! I mean, really good. Protect, fuel and then repair. And that makes a lot of sense. And then how are you applying this with your patients? So if someone comes into your clinic, are you just starting with diet and lifestyle changes first, uh what lab test are you doing, how does this plug into your clinical model when you work with patients?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, so, I mean, their- uh, actually the U.K. has some really good mitochondrial testing because of the work of Dr. Sarah Myhill. Uhm and I think the lab is called RED Labs. Uh, but it- you can measure various markers here, you know-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -cerum, CoQ10-  [crosstalk], pyruvate, lactate, etc. Uh you can look at fatty acid markers on an organic acids test-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -if they’re high, that means they’re not-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk]

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. They’re not- yes, not being transported into the into the mitochondria, you might need some L-carnitine. And the difference between L-carnitine and acetyl carnitine – acetyl carnitine can cross the blood brain barrier. And so it can work on neurotransmitters as well as uh mitochondrial health.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then carnitine’s- like L-carnitine is more downstream, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you would use that to improve the carnitine shuttle and to help improve fatty acid oxidation and energy burning from fat, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And then kids, on the spectrum who have low muscle tone, uhm, you know we definitely use uh lot of carnitine, CoQ10, you know, the gold standard in traditional uhm mitochondrial uh disorders is the muscle biopsy. But you know, traditional medicine does a great job of finding things if aren’t there on the extreme here, or extreme here, but most of the world exist on this continuum. And just because you’re on that continuum doesn’t mean you don’t have it- an issue for it to be corrected.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we can also use carnitine too to help modulate thyroid hormones too, I mean, if you’re on the hyper side or on the grave’s or hyper side, carnitine is some really great modulatory effects, and also with the lithium orotate as well. So, 2 interesting mitochondrial compounds but also help with modulating high thyroid function.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Mm-hmm- mm-hmm. Absolutely. Definitely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Alright, to continue walking everyone through your kind of how you would, you know, work up a patient and incorporate this 3-pronged approach.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So basically, the more systems that are involved in someone’s symptom presentation, the more you should take uh mitochondrial dysfunction. And, you know, mitochondria- by making the mitochondria work better, everything in your body will work better.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Now off-air we were talking about uh, you know, the different, uh Kindle Store that I trained with an Austin Texas, you know he calls-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -an mitochondrial bucket.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, let’s say you start uh today working on healing your mitochondria, you’re not gonna notice all the benefit that you will 6 months down the road. Uh the first system that goes offline when the mitochondria are dysfunctional, is the nervous system. So, brain fog, fatigue, memory issues, etc. And that’s one reason why the IV NAD issues for drug rehab because it helps kind of rehabilitate the brain and so those cravings for the drugs and withdrawals go down dramatically.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And what did you learn specifically from Kindle when you were down in Austin?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh methylation, you know, at that time back in 2012, you know, it was all uh checking bile titers, and using uh anti barrels, uh, and liquid boron for uhm cerebral folate deficiency, uhm, and the mitochondria at the time he wasn’t as comprehensive uh with it, uhm but now he’s gotten more so.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, interesting. Alright, next. What else?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, so, you know, outside of the 3-pronged approach, the way, you know, that I uhm look at the mitochondria and- and work with someone uhm with mitochondrial issues is to uh, you know, again, upregulate glutathione. Some people may not be able to tolerate glutathione the beginning-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then what happens? If that is the case and they can’t even handle sulfur amino acids like methionine or cysteine or NAC or taurine or- I don’t- m- maybe they had little taurine but what would you do? How would you incorporate those aminos which are tapered in, would you incorporate binders, what would you do?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, I would look at the potential for SIBO, and the production of hydrogen sulfide gas. Uhm, I’d seen that happen a lot, uhm, you can also- Amy Yasko has a list of, you know, foods that are really high in sulfur, uhm, and so I would, you know, you might want go in a low sulfur diet for a period of time. Uhm, but basically, uhm using uh, like the ___[24:32]-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah molybdenum? Mm-hmm?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Molybdenum, yeah. That uh will help that CBS polymorphism work as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Nice.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And or facilitate that enzyme working better. Uh, so someone can’t tolerate glutathione, uhm, you know, we use it uh, in lower doses, uh or we’ll back off completely, open the drainage pathways to the body, make sure the biles are moving, we’re supporting the kidneys and liver and lymphatic system, and then out again.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, what does that mean? Because obviously, I mean you need glutathione to detoxify it- it’s a great antioxidant, right, it’s a great protector of our uhm, our mitochondria. So, obviously we need it. So why does that mean like, do we have to just decrease it, doesn’t that decrease our mitochondria’s ability to be protected because it doesn’t have the histones, right? So what happens? I mean, is it- is it kind of a short-term kind of mindset?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, yes. it’s short term mindset for sure because you now- you definitely need it, but in people who are really toxic, uhm their elimination pathways are compromised, then, you know, they’re not gonna be able to tolerate it. And-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So- so the reactions are because we’re mobilizing too much crap? Or too much toxin essentially?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Typically, yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And so when you try to upregulate like the lymph, are we giving like certain gentle herbs that may upregulate the lymph or the detox just to kinda generally allow things to to flow better and not get excited, do we add in binders? What does that look like?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Drainage remedies- I use drainage remedies uhm, to support the lymphatic system. You can use things like coke root- red root-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, but also, you know, vibration plate, chi machines, mini rebounders to get the lymphatic system moving, dry skin brushing, uhm drainage remedies for sure for the kidneys, liver, uhm and lymphatic system.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. ___[26:25] is great, I’ve used it on my wife uh before she had a- almost little bit of mastitis, breastfeeding and that works really well, it really opens things up, I love ___[26:33], that’s great.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s very good. Yeah, so, in general, Amy Yasko has the low sulfur diet, we’ll put the links in for the Amy Yasko diet. So we kinda keep some of the sulfur down, we made you what some breath testing to look at hydrogen sulfide, and- and why would that be a problem? What’s happening with that SIBO or that hydrogen sulfide overgrowth that is affecting glutathione or making us more s- uh- sensitive to sulfur amino acids?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, uh, hydrogen sulfide is a mitochondrial inhibitor.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Aah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And, so it basically puts the body in a state of torpor, or energy conservation. So-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great! Torker?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Torpor. T-O-R-P-O-R. So like-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, yeah. And that was the way I was you know, described to me but uh, you know, you can lower body temperature-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -decreased energy production-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -cause major brain fog, uh, as far as the breath testing goes, it can be helpful but 25% of the time you get a false negative.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you wanna do conventional stool- or you wanna do some more cutting stool testing to look for bacteria overgrowth?

Dr. Tim Jackson: That uhm- on the organic acids test, I think it’s 21 hydroxyphenyl acetate-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh that’s the marker that can be indicative of SIBO, uhm you know, if you see that, uhm, and-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Phenyl acetate is interesting ’cause that’s also an oxidative stress marker too.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And uhm, yes, so, the uh, SIBO. If you had concentration for any period of time or extended period of time, the only way SIBO can develop is when there is a lack of peristalsis or decreased peristalsis-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -so you get a migration of the bacteria that belong in the large intestines, moving up to the small intestines which should be relatively sterile. And so uhm, you know, err- you wanna correct the large intestines, you wanna optimize stomach acid, uhm, bile production, digestive enzymes and uh, you know, you can use herbs or antibiotics to treat the SIBO, but if you don’t improve peristalsis, it’s just gonna keep coming back.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Now there are a lot of patients that are doing a lot of DNA testing these days for 23 of May, what are the big DNA Markers you would look at to say, hey there may be a mitochondrial issue, or even maybe an issue with detoxifying? What would you look at genetically, what are the top 3 or 5 things you would look at and highlight and say, “Hey this- this may lead you into faking there’s an issue”?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So GSTM, uh, for glutathione.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, you know, we can measure uh glutathione levels. Uhm, it’s best to measure the reduced-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm to oxidize ratio ’cause some people can’t recycle glutathione. Uhm, but glutathio- any polymorphisms in the glutathione pathway, that’s gonna affect detoxification, uhm, and on mitochondria, uhm, and polymorphisms and the superoxide dismutase pathway. Uh, that’s gonna affect it, uh, polymorphism called endufs, uh N-D-U-F-S, uhm that affects uhm fatty acid transport-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -into mitochondria. Uhm there’s one called ACAT, A-C-A-T, and that can affect the conversion of protein, and fats into Acetyl-CoA, and so that’s a great limiting step in energy production.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, uhm Vitamin B1, uhm, can be helpful in facilitating uhm or bypassing that polymorphism in particular-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, and then there is one called SLC, there’s a whole family of them. SLC uh 16-A1, uhm and there are others uhm but it has- those also had to do with fatty acid transport, uhm and so, you know, that’s where you could look at uh blood or seer models of L-carnitine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Would MTHFR fit into this or COMT fit into this at all?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh it would it in the sense that MTHFR affects the levels of CoQ10 and carnitine-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk] lower levels so you gotta make sure those are higher?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: COMT, how does that affecting things?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So COMT uhm basically uh it affects- so it can create uh elevated uh catecholamines, and that can create a stress response in the body, and uhm, you know, long term sympathetic dominant stress response will turn the mitochondria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Can that also deplete dopamine too?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Uhm, and so, well what it does is, people with COMT, they don’t metabolize it as quickly depending on the exact COMT uhm, but dopamine, norepinephrine epinephrine tend to be higher, uhm, and usually norepinephrine epinephrine are more of an issue, uh, but yeah, it can uh for sure affect uh the mitochondria indirectly through that mechanism.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great. So let’s re-summarize that, we have our COMT and our MTHFR, right? Now you mentioned the endoxin and the B- B1 importantly, with the MTHFR you me can- you mentioned the carnitine and the CoQ10-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: With the COMT we’re working on what decreasing sympathetic stress, breathing, not over exercising, good- good food, is there anything you’d want or also highlight to help reduce COMT?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, making sure that uh you check your estrogen levels-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, and man, you know, checking estradiol, and women checking-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -E1, E2, and E3-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, and measuring that compared to progesterone, uhm, but that can uh, certainly affect uhm or be product of COMT.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great. And then the other 3 again? The first 3 that you mentioned, I wanted- just make sure we have a good summary.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So the ACAT, A-C-A-T-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, affects uhm the production of Acetyl-CoA which is the first step in the Krebs cycle-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Krebs cycle, yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -and so vitamin B1, thiamine can be used for that-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, other polymorphisms like ___[33:03], uh FADS, uh those affect uh an SLC, affect the transportation of fatty acid into the mitochondria-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so extra carnitine may be needed-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm and then the polymorphisms that you know may interfere with protection of the mitochondria are GSTN or any polymorphisms in the glutathione pathway, along with uh SOD polymorphisms-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -and you know, to upregulate those, uhm we can use again molecular hydrogen, we can use uhm things like ___[33:42] glutathione or uh liposomal glutathione as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If someone wants to learn more about interpreting these genetic tests, do you have a- a resource or reference that you like to go to?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I wish I had a comprehensive uh resource that I can tell you to go to that cover them all, uh unfortunately I don’t. Uhm I mean, there might be someone somewhere, you know there are new apps coming out all the time, and all they’re doing you know, it might save- this is oh, a neurotransmitter profile, this is a hormone profile, they’re just reporting those polymorphisms that affect that particular area of the body, it’s not a separate test.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. Is there one source you could point us to?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm,, I helped them design their report, uhm I’ve done a- if you google my name Dr. Tim Jackson I’ve done a ton of articles, interviews, podcasts, summits on methylation MTHFR, uhm so that should be a lot of free content available if you google my name.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. Dr. Tim if listeners wanna find more about you and wanna work with you, what’s your website? How can they reach out?

Dr. Tim Jackson: healyourbody.O-R-G, so, or my email, I know it’s long, but it’s drtim- D-R-T-I-M-0-7-29-81, and you know-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh my God, we gotta shorten that up to like or whatever [chuckles]-

Dr. Tim Jackson: I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We gotta shorten that up. Alright, we’ll put the links below so if you don’t- if you don’t recall and don’t remember Dr. Tim’s info, we’ll put it below so it’s a one-click option for you all. Dr. Tim, it’s been awesome. We had 2 other podcasts for Dr. Ji- Dr. Tim, so feel free and go back and review those podcasts, great uhm treasure trove of information. Dr. Tim, thank you so much for being a part of the podcast. And you have a phenomenal day.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Thank you Dr. Justin, you the same.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thanks doc!


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