Collagen Diet: Collagen-Rich Foods for Healthy Joints, and Skin

We know collagen is going to help with the joints because we know half of your bones are protein. We need good building blocks for our cartilaginous tissue and ligamentous tissue. Frankly, most people get most of their protein from muscle meats. That’s a problem because they’re not getting the knuckles, the bones, and the cartilage, as we would from old-fashioned soups. So, if you’re doing a lot of soups and bone broth soups, that’s great. If not, we really want to add extra collagen.

Click here to consult with a functional medicine doctor for more information on a good collagen diet and supplements.

I do 20 g of collagen in my coffee every morning. I think it’s amazing. I do my true collagen with some MCT oil and grass-fed butter. I love it. I think it’s excellent for skin, hair, nails, and just for overall prevention of bone loss and cartilage loss. We know the wear and tear that most people experience in their joints throughout the year, especially if they do a lot of long-distance cardio. You really need more building blocks to help prevent and mitigate the wear and tear, so you don’t have knee and joint replacements later in life. Collagen can really help decrease some of that wear and tear.

How do you take collagen?

I like adding collagen in my coffee in the morning because it has a nice little kind of creamer-like effect. It gives that little bit of frothiness which is wonderful. I also do it before bed. Sometimes I’ll do a little bit of collagen (glycine), magnesium, and vitamin C because vitamin C is a really important building block for making collagen. I find magnesium has some very good calming effects as well where there are plugs in the GABA or it’s just a natural beta-blocker as well. It can calm the heart and bring the heart rate down a little bit. I think magnesium does work on some of those GABA pathways as well and, of course, magnesium helps with blood sugar. You’ll get deeper sleep and better REM sleep when you have good magnesium. So, I love combining collagen and magnesium at night.

Where can you get collagen from?

You can get collagen from food via bone broth. Chicken skin is super rich in glycine, roughly 3.3 g for 3-1/2 oz. If you make chicken soup, throw the whole chicken in there. Get a rotisserie chicken from Whole Foods and or get the fattier cuts of the chicken at least with the bone and the skin, so that way you get the best of both worlds if you’re going to do it from a whole food source. Regarding seafood, wild salmon is going to be the best source of glycine.

If you want to learn more about the collagen diet and other good sources of collagen, click this link to schedule a chat with me!

The Top 5 Reasons Why Your Estrogen Levels are High – Men & Women!

Let’s talk about the top 5 reasons why your estrogen levels are high. We’re going to break them down today.


First, let’s look at the 3 major kinds of estrogens: E1 or estrone, E2 or estradiol, and E3 or estriol. In a woman’s regular cycle, it’s usually estradiol we’re talking about. When you start shifting to more menopausal and the ovary stops working, you start getting more estriol. The adrenals help in kick in a lot of DHEA and you make more estriol. Estradiol is more of the growth factor type of estrogen and estriol is a weaker estrogen.

Click here if you need to consult with a functional medicine doctor to learn more about estrogen and your hormones.


  1. PLASTICS. You’ll get it when the plastic is warm like in a microwave or out of a plastic water bottle especially if it’s in the car and the sun is hitting it or it’s outside. That’s why you want a good stainless steel or glass water bottle if you’re going to go outside or leaving it in the sun. The microwave heat and the radiation is going to cause a big release of plastic chemicals there, the xenoestrogens. One of the big ones are the phthalates but also BPA. There are other types of BPAs that are new which are supposedly safe but there are still estrogen-like compounds there as well. These plastics can affect women and men as well. Men are actually going to be more affected by them because men aren’t used to having estrogen in their environment and getting a whole bunch is going to be a problem.
  2. PESTICIDES. These tend to have an estrogenic quality to them and if you’re eating foods that are not organic, you’re definitely going to be getting organochlorines and various pesticides in your environment.
  3. PHYTOESTROGENS. These are found in soy. For example, I had a vegan-vegetarian patient. We ran a Dutch sex hormone panel on her and her estradiol was through the roof and really high. Phytoestrogens can be a big one, so soy may be a problem. With vegan-vegetarian, there’s a lot of phony protein consumption like fake meat kind of stuff such as the Beyond burger where there are a lot of soy and estrogen-like compounds in there. There are also hormones in meat. You have to make sure you get antibiotic-free, hormone-free, and ideally organic and pasture-fed or if you’re on the Whole Foods scale, step 4 or step 5 is ideal. Step 2 is at least pretty good. Organic means no pesticides, no hormones, and also the food they’re eating has no pesticides or hormones, too.
  4. HIGH LEVELS OF INSULIN. Too much carbs drive high levels of insulin because insulin responds to a high level of blood sugar. The blood sugars in your bloodstream go up and your pancreas comes in. The beta cells make a bunch of insulin to bring it down and bring it into the cellar and converted to fat. So, high levels of insulin upregulate an enzyme in men called aromatase that converts testosterone, the male hormones, to estrogen which becomes a problem. Now, in women, a similar thing happens but it’s the exact opposite or the big switch. Their estrogen is converted to testosterone. So, women can actually get more androgen-like issues which results in weight gain, acne, hair growth, and sometimes you can see some libido enhancements on that. So, that’s the difference between men and women.
  5. POOR GUT HEALTH. In the gut, we make healthy good bacteria in our gut that help us absorb a lot of nutrients. A good healthy gut function helps us break down protein for good HDL levels and good enzyme levels. We need these to break down protein into amino acids which are really important for helping us to detoxify. So, detoxification helps us to excrete estrogens that we’re getting exposed to in our environments such as the pesticides, plastic, or something that you don’t even know you’re getting exposed to. Good healthy detoxification will help your body eliminate that, so that’s a good backup plan.Also, if we have a lot of dysbiosis, SIBO and bacterial overgrowth, we can make a lot of what’s called beta-glucuronidase. This is an enzyme that’s made by bad bacteria and it makes it harder to detoxify estrogen. The beta-glucuronidase takes conjugated estrogens and binds it to a protein that helps us excrete it out the body. It takes that protein and it pulls it apart. It takes the handcuffs off that protein, so that allows that estrogen that’s been deconjugated to go back into the body in the general circulation. So, if we have gut issues, that could be a major concern.


We need things like cysteine, glycine, glutamine, sulfur amino acids, and things that help us methylate like B12, B6, and folate. So, these nutrients we have to get them in our diet via a good diet. We need to be able to break down and absorb those nutrients, so we need good digestion to get those things in there.

So, in general, we’ve got to make sure we have a good gut bacteria balance. Even fungal overgrowth can cause problems and H. pylori that can lower stomach acid and make it harder to break down nutrition on one side and then it can create this bacterial overgrowth enzyme that makes it hard to detoxify estrogen. These are really important components. If you have any issues with estrogen, you’ve got to look there.

Now, we may want to do things to help detoxify like make lifestyle changes, food changes, pesticide changes, make the changes in regards to plastics, and make in in regards to your diet, your glycemic load, and your gut. That’s a good first step to get to the bottom. There are also different things we may do to help upregulate detoxification to help get that estrogen. It may be activated charcoal or various soluble fibers. It could be things like bentonite clay. We could use things like DIM or Calcium D-Glucarate or glutathione, sulfur amino acids, and vitamin C. They’re all helpful in different situations. We would recommend them based on what’s happening but at least make the diet and lifestyle changes out of the gates.

If you want to find out the root cause of what’s happening, click this link where you can schedule a chat with me!

Methods To Encourage Good Bowel Movement

You see women on Instagram. They’re all done up with their hair and makeup, and they’re marketing #ad #detox #tea. They have these ridiculous products that they’re remarketing and they’re not talking about poop. The best way to detox is getting poop out. I’m not going to buy detox tea. I’ll get a bit of dandelion or some milk thistle blended in and that’s part of it but unfortunately, detox is co-opted by the marketing industry. Most people don’t even focus on that. They’ll poop once a week but then they take a detox tea and they think they’re doing it correctly.

Click here for a consultation with a functional medicine doctor if you want to learn how to detox properly!

My whole take on detoxification out of the gates is very simple.

    1. Get enough good clean water in your system.
    2. Make sure you’re digesting your amino acids and all your nutrients well.
      Remember: Sulfur-based amino acids run the majority of your detoxification pathways, along with B vitamins. We need good B vitamins, good antioxidants, and good sulfur amino acids. For breaking down those nutrients well, there’s not a bottleneck with ACL levels or enzyme levels. We’re getting enough to clean water.
    3. Not overly stressing our sympathetic nervous system.
      Remember: The more we overly stress the adrenals, the sympathetic nervous system decreases that migrating motor complex which are the wavelike contractions that move stool through your intestinal tract, just like you roll up the toothpaste roll at night to get that toothpaste moving through to get your toothpaste out to brush your teeth. Your intestines are the same things.

    If you can do those top three things right, you’re on the right track. There may be extra things where we need extra sulfur or extra antioxidants or compounds or binders to help with mold or heavy metal. That’s true and that would be addressed down the road but a lot of detoxification happens hepatobiliary, liver, gallbladder, back into the intestines, and then out the intestinal tract. So, we need to have really good motility and really good absorption of nutrients, and a lot of good clean water to help fuel.

    Supplement Suggestion:

    Use one for liver support that has some gallbladder nutrients built into it. That can be really helpful because with sluggish bowels because a lot of times there’s also sluggish bile production. So, just helping thin the bile whether it’s using supplemental ox bile or methionine, taurine, B powder, whatever else we can do to increase bile flow. That’s going to be helping.

    Detox and Diet

    This is a low-hanging fruit that your average American is still really, really blowing it on which is just the fact that they’re not doing enough good meats, good fats, and good veggies. Your average American might wake up and do a piece of toast and maybe in 2020 or 2021, it’s an avocado toast but still that’s not the optimal thing for good poop.

    Inflammation in the diet can easily mess up the intestinal tract and can easily create inflammation in the gut. That could either move the body more to diarrhea or more to constipation. If we start moving more to constipation, that’s not good. Of course, these foods can stress out the intestinal tract and then when we start creating inflammation in the intestinal tract, then we already have indigestion meaning we don’t have adequate enzymes and acids. So, we’re burping a lot after our meals, food sits longer in our tummy, and a lot of gases are produced because the foods are not being broken down properly. That’s a problem.

    We’ve got to really make sure we’re masticating and chewing our food very, very, very well. We’ve got to make sure to increase the surface area for enzymes and acids to work. We also have to make sure not overly hydrating with our meals. So, hydrate 10 minutes or more before meal, and then if you’re consuming a little bit of liquid with a meal, just do it to help with swallowing pills. Don’t do it for hydration purposes. Because water has a pH of 7 and your intestinal tract has a pH of 1.5 to 2. So, if you start adding a whole bunch of pH 7 to up to a pH of 2, you’re going to move that pH more in the alkaline direction away from the acid direction. We need good acidity to help activate her enzymes in our acid levels. That’s very important.

    If you have any issues with detoxification, please reach out to a functional medicine doctor.


        1. Chew your food up well.
        2. Make sure you’re not overly hydrating with the food. Do all your hydration 2 minutes before.


Oils That Cause Gut Inflammation

There are various top-causes for gut inflammation but a big one is an oil. The oil you use to cook or bake into foods could be a major culprit to your very uncomfortable gut inflammation. Let’s look at the good and stable oils vs. the unhealthy oils. 

Click here for a consultation with a functional medicine doctor if you have questions about what oils to use for cooking!

If you look at the standard American diet, just even a hundred years ago, your grandparents or your great grandparents, they did not have access to these type of oils. They were cooking with traditional fats. They did a lot of lard and maybe some beef tallow.

If I asked my grandfather, “What did your grandmother cook you and what did she cook it with?” She was not using soybean oil. She was not using corn oils. She was not using rapeseed oil, which is canola.  She was not using peanut oil. If they did something fried, it was going to be fried in possibly bacon fat, which came from the pig in the backyard of the farm or it was going to be cooked in some type of like a beef tallow, where the cows were on the back part of the farm.

When it comes down to fats, most plant fats are not going to be the best unless they are cold extracted or unless they are minimally processed to extract the fats. Partly because of the processes of extracting, it tends to damage the fats because the heat and the extraction process also makes the fats rancid and taste bad. There’s a lot of like deodorizing and filtration and different processes to make it more palatable that you would never be able to have at a natural state.

So the best plant fats are:

  1. Coconut oil because it’s a saturated fat and it’s more temperature-stable.
  2. Cold-press olive oil and good-quality avocado oil, which is primarily a monosaturated fat.
  3. Palm oil, which is more in a kind of saturated state.

There are some nut-based and some seed-based oils, but then you start ramping up the Omega-6 and those may not be the best.  There are some supplemental oils that are more GLA-based that I’ll give supplementally, like black currant seed oil but we’ll give it supplementally and that’s coming from great sources that are going to be in capsules that won’t be oxidized and such.

Bad fats are going to create a lot of oxidative stress and they are going to deplete a lot of your antioxidant reserves because if those fats are oxidized, your body is going to need a lot of vitamin C and vitamin E to help with the oxidative stress that those fats may cause your body.

Now what it you find a good fish with gluten-free breading so it’s not covered in wheat with some type of non-gluten containing flour, but then you’ve got canola oil. Do you think you’re still going to be net positive in terms of nutrition because you’ve still got the good fish, but yet you’ve got the inflammatory oils or would you say, just get you some grilled fish and then if you want to bread it, you bread it yourself?

There’s a product that we like of sweet potato fries that my wife will do for my son because it’s really easy, but they have a little bit of canola oil in there. So you have this kind of convenience factor where ideally if you could you always would want to put your own fat on there if you could and my easy saturated fat or my easy fat for cooking that’s plant-based would be avocado. I like avocado because it tastes a little bit more neutral. I do not like olive oil as much. Olive oil is better for dressings, but I’ll do avocado for cooking. If you have control over it, you always choose the better fat over the junky fat if you can.

So the interesting thing is like coconut oil and avocado they’ve become kind of trendy and I would say avocado is not going to be a traditional fat meaning, meaning like traditional people were probably not doing it because you’ve got to have some heavy-duty equipment to extract the oil, but coconut oil would be super traditional.  I mean, this would be something that has historical use.

Your big fats that are going to be plant-based would probably be primarily coconut. But your biggest ones that I think are going to be used more long-term from generation to generation will be your tallows, your bacon fat, your duck fat, and those kinds of things because saturated fats don’t go bad. They stay good for a long time because the carbon is saturated with 4 hydrogen bonds between them, which makes the fat really, really, really temperature-stable.

Take note of oils are that bad for your gut because they cause inflammation and oxidative stress.

If you have any questions about what the best oils to use for cooking, please reach out to a functional medicine doctor to learn more.


4 Herbs That Give You The Upper Hand Against Viral Infections

Let’s talk about four herbs with antiviral properties. 

Click here for a consultation with a functional medicine doctor before taking herbal supplements!

Olive Leaf

As part of a Candida protocol, we’ll have a couple of herb combinations that will have olive leaf combined with monolaurin. Stack those two right on top of each other. Monolaurin is a lauric acid coconut extract.  It has been shown to be very, very potent as an antiviral.  With olive leaf, the main compound in it – oleuropein – and that actually prevents the virus from attaching to the cells. We kind of talk about mechanisms a lot and people ask why does that matter.  It is because some herbs may prevent the replication of viruses.  Things like olive actually prevent the virus from attaching to healthy cells. So if you have multiple herbs, you’ve got multiple mechanisms.  You’re just making yourself even more resilient.


They help with either immune modulation, natural killer cell, antibody modulation which is the infantry that comes in afterwards, or it is going to help with viral replication. Typically, it’s going to modulate the inflammation from the immune response.

Usually it is hitting things in about three to four different ways, and most are going to fall into that category. That is kind of the mechanism how they are working.

Cat’s Claws

We use Cat’s Claw or Samento a lot with biofilms.  They work really well.  These are protective shields, bacteria and critters use. We also use it with a lot of Lyme and various co-infections, but Cat’s Claws is great at the immune system, helping with viruses, and really enhancing the body’s ability to deal with infections. Again, everything we are talking about is not necessarily to treat anything.  A lot of the time it is just to support our own immune response to what’s happening, because our body is really the ultimate fighter in all of this.  Everything we are doing is just trying to give our body’s immune system an edge to address the issue to begin with.  The body has dealt and humankind has dealt with viruses since forever.


When we are doing a lot of these herbs, a lot of times we want to make sure the whole root is present. A lot of times with Echinacea, you will see a lot of flower present. I want the whole root.  I find that it has a lot more of the immune-modulating alkaloids that really have the immune benefit. It is excellent in how it reduces virus levels.  It inhibits the growth of bacteria. It inhibits the growth of viruses. It is also going to modulate with the inflammation caused by that immune response and caused by the cytokines and interleukins.

What can you do to try to gain the upper hand?

These things are just going to improve your resilience. It’s important to have the right mindset. A lot of people are selling like cures or solutions and that is not going to be the case, but it is really going to be our body to begin with.  Even antibiotics, when an infection gets cleared, it is still not the antibiotic.  It is the antibiotic lowering the level of the infection and then the immune system can kind of come in and play.  It is like if we are using a lifting analogy, it really gives a very helpful spot when you’re kind of low in that bench press, it really gives you that little spot to kind of get it up through that sticky point.

If you have any questions about herbs with antiviral properties, please reach out to a functional medicine doctor and learn more.

How To Treat Toenail Fungus or Discoloration


How To Treat Toenail Fungus or Discoloration

Let’s go into like the most common things that you would see or hear of with complaints regarding nails. The biggest one is going to be toe fungus under the nail bed where it’s going to be a yellow or just a fungal-infected toenail.

Why Should We Address Gut Issues?

If it’s on the toenail, there’s definitely implications that it could be in the gut. The problem is you can address the gut a lot of times but that’s not going to be enough to address the toenails well. Just because the time you put herbs into the gut or whatever time it gets into the bloodstream, makes its way all the way down to your toe. Unless it’s a very minor fungal infection, most of the time you’re gonna need to hit it topically because your immune system and all these antifungals take a long time to get to the outer periphery of where this fungus is located. So in general, we should address the gut and then we should also address it topically on the nail. So we’ve got to hit it from both ends, inside and outside, to kind of put that fungus between a rock in a hard place.

Click here for a consultation with a functional medicine doctor to find out about treatments for toenail fungus and discoloration!

How To Treat Toenail Fungus or Discoloration

How Fungus is Treated Conventionally

Let’s just say you go to your foot doctor or your podiatrist and you say, “Hey, I’ve got a fungal infection on my toe.” They’re going to end up giving you Lamisil or some other type of a prescription or over-the-counter antifungal. But to me, I think that’s a shortsighted approach because that toenail is not having that infection for no reason.

How To Treat Toenail Fungus or Discoloration

How Fungus is Treated Functionally

If it’s really bad, you definitely want to be addressing your diet because a lot of the fungus or yeast, which is primarily that yellow-discolored nail is going to be fungus in that area.

  • You got to stop what’s feeding it. Look at the diet and stop feeding it all the refined carbohydrates.
  • You want to address the gut issues to begin with. The Candida, which is a kind of yeast or fungus, whether it’s Microsporidia Rhodotorula. You want to address and knock down some of these yeasts. More than likely we’re going to topically hit it as well.
  • Some of the Lamisil or the other medications that are antifungals are very hard on the liver. So if you’re going to go that way, definitely take some herbs like milk thistle and take some extra glutathione to help support and tonify the liver if you’re going to go that way.

How To Treat Toenail Fungus or Discoloration

Alternative Treatments for Toe Fungus 

  1. Topically, we can use things like Melaleuca or tea tree and/or oil of oregano and topically rub it on the nail.
  2. We can also do a fungal soak as well. The fungal soaks work phenomenal. There’s a herbal concoction that you mix it with apple cider vinegar which works amazing. You can do that and then topically rub something on after you soak your feet for 5 or 10 minutes. Some people they’ll just do the topical nail as well. I like doing the whole foot. That way if there’s any fungus between the toes or in the heel or wherever in the skin, you kind of get all of it versus just some of it. So nail fungal soak with also topically hitting the nail as well.

Anything that we can do to reduce that process of AGEing — the advanced glycation enzyme process — is also going to be one of the critical steps to this. The less stress in your body, the better. Nail fungus is really unique because once you fix a lot of the root cause stuff, that may not go away. So you gotta really topically hit it as well.

If you have any questions about toenail fungus and discoloration, please reach out to a functional medicine doctor and learn how to treat this condition.

Top 7 Nutrients to Heal Your Gut | Podcast #294

Our gut is a group of organs that needs to be in good condition in order for our body to function properly. There are a lot of ways to take care of our gut. For today’s episode, Dr. Justin and Evan Brand talk about Top 7 nutrients to heal our gut, and also the root causes. Read more of the podcast below.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover: 

1:21    Downside of OTC Medications

9:18    Healing Nutrients for the Gut

19:11  Gut Irritating Symptoms

31:57  Probiotics

32:47  Mold

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We are live. It’s Dr. J here in the house with Evan Brand. We are really excited to chat about the top seven nutrients to help heal your gut. We’re going to talk about the root causes of why your gut may be inflamed and irritated to begin with, and how we as functional medicine practitioners, help the body heal faster while addressing the root cause. Evan, how are we doing today, man?

Evan Brand: I’m really good. Feels good to be back in the saddle. And excited to dive in with you here today. We’re in a gut disease epidemic. Maybe I should try to pull up some statistics here on like, IBS, your typical idiopathic chronic inflamed, you know, inflammatory gi issue. Let’s see what the numbers are. According to the CDC real quick, but this issue is huge. It’s I know it’s in the millions. So CDC, I it’s got to be bigger than this. This seems this seems low. Okay, well, these are people diagnosed with autoimmune gut disease. diseases. So Crohn’s disease or ulcerative colitis, back in 2015 was 3 million people. But those are people diagnosed and you’re talking the most extreme manifestation, Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis. So if we’re talking IBS, completely different from IBD, the numbers, I’m going to say probably in the double digits of millions for sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, I mean, I mean, if you just go look at the top medications by sale, you’re going to see I’m almost positive, you’re going to see omeprazole or some kind of a Nexium or acid blocker in that top five or top 10 for sure, I know and pass It’s been three or four. It’s been common. I mean, you know, it just really depends on what you market, right? A lot of times when these medications go over the counter, it becomes a little bit less of a deal because everyone has access to it. No companies in the market it quite as much right? True. But in the past, it’s always been a big, big top selling medication. And when you’re on medications like that, you can actually create more damage and more inflammation, partly because you’re not breaking down your foods, partly because you need acidity to prevent bad microbes from growing. So number one, you start having indigestion issues because you’re not breaking down your food all the way. Number two, you don’t have that good acid so other bacteria and critters can grow. Number three, yeah, it could potentially block some of the irritation in the gut. If you’re not making enough acid, a lot of times your food rots and creates organic acids from the rotting process. That’s, you know, that’s real. Now the problem is having enough acid though, can also help break down that food and prevent that acid rotting from forming as well. So it’s a double edged sword. The question is, is the gut mucosa in the stomach? Is there enough integrity to handle the acid? That’s the question. Sometimes there is sometimes there isn’t. The people where there is these are the ones that merely start getting better with some apple cider vinegar or some betaine HCl, the ones who feel a little bit worse. These are the tricky ones, right? These are the ones that have a whole bunch of back pain, right, but have a sunburn so they can’t really get a massage because there’s their skin on the outside is so irritated where the inside support that is needed right from those deep muscles and tendons can’t receive it because of the inflammation. Think of that as a gut lining, right? That’s irritated from all of the ads or inflammatory foods or a lack of stomach acid. All of that can be driving that for sure.

Evan Brand: Let’s go into like story mode. Because people love this. I mean, lecture lecture mode is fun, but people love story mode. So let’s go into story mode for a few minutes. I just want to tell a story and if you’ve got one to share, to have gut issues, you know, so I guess I have to me personally, you know, my gut issues were that I had major weight loss. I had depression, I had anxiety I was having panic attacks. I was having sleep issues, skin issues, just bad bad acne. I had burping I had bloating, I mean pretty much across the board. That’s Something people don’t think about is that it’s not just your gut that’s affected when you when your guts affected it’s your brain and a lot of cases too. And long story short, I had many infections and I do believe even back then I didn’t know this, but I do believe that mold was part of my journey and detoxing, it has improved my gut because mold can cause diarrhea. And so I had a lot of issues with my bowels that have gotten way better after doing binders. But the story that I was going to mention was a teenager who I saw within the last few months who was around 16 17 I think it just turned 17 and the GI doctors basically gave him a prescription pad he was diagnosed with pain colitis, which is where it was the entire colon, not just the the later section of it that was inflamed, and they gave him I don’t remember the name of the drug but some sort of immune modulating drug and send him on his way. And we ran a stool test on this kid. His inflammation level was above 1000 on calprotectin, which is crazy. We don’t like to ever see it even post that correct. And we just got him on some of the gut healing nutrients. So you and I always use and we’re going to dive into what those are later. But within six weeks we retested his stool just because it was an urgent situation. Typically, we don’t retest that soon. And we had already got the inflammation down into triple digits. So I mean, within six weeks, hundreds and hundreds of points of calprotectin had dropped, I think we got it down to maybe a 200. So from a it was over 1000, I think was 1200, down to a 200 in about six weeks.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So unprotect is like the equivalent of C reactive protein for your blood, right? Calprotectin is produced by the immune cells in the gut. So when you have a lot of interleukins are cytokines or nuclear factor Kappa beta, these are all like these inflammatory signaling molecules, your white blood cells and immune cells will produce calprotectin as a end result. So it’s a good way of monitoring it like you’re going to see it very high, you know, greater than 500 and a lot of irritable bowel diseases, colitis, ulcerative colitis, Crohn’s, those kind of things, right.

Evan Brand: Yeah, we don’t see it that often though. I mean, maybe I mean, more than the average person more than the average practitioner, probably because the people that we’re seeing have already struck out with conventional doctors. But I would say out of a given month, I probably only see calprotectin above 500, maybe five to 10 times.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, me above 500. It’s a lot. I’ll see it typically above 50. You know, 50 is kind of my functional range. And hundreds, I’ll see that quite frequently. And it just depends, right, we see a lot of patients that have already gotten very educated from us on the podcast. So they’re already making a lot of first line changes. And that’s kind of the benefit of the podcast, patients already come in with a lot of momentum and wind at their back because they’re following a lot of these first line kind of low hanging fruit therapies. So they’re making some diet changes, they’re doing some simple things, and that provides a much better foundation so we see less inflammation coming in. So for sure, now, root cause what are some of the well we’re going to talk about some of our favorite nutrients in a minute, but root cause you know, food allergens are going to be a big root cause grains, dairy, right booms, anti nutrients and plants. Some can be big deal. Not enough stomach acid, not enough enzymes, right? A lot of chronic stress, people don’t realize but over exercise is actually known to create gut permeability. A lot of studies on post marathoners and lots of aerobic exercise, actually increasing gut permeability. People were like thinking about their gut and their leaky guts, which can create a lot of immune stress or thinking about inflammatory foods and infections and enzyme and acid deficiency. But guess what overexercise can also aid in that permeability.

Evan Brand: Yeah, so you mean you could think you’re doing great and oh, I eat keto and 90 bulletproof coffee, but then you go run five miles every day. That’s just not gonna be good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Maybe a stressor? Yeah, stressor was a big article. I think it was like last month in a golf magazine. Tiger Woods blamed all of his back in the surgeries on on chronic cardio. He was doing lots of running, which, you know, anyone that’s in the athletic industry would know that, that doesn’t really translate to the golf field that well, right. You need very specific types of movements and training modalities to allow That to transfer and chronic long distance cardio guess what it really only transfers to chronic long distance cardio sports. If you’re not doing a chronic long distance cardio sports, most people are going to do better with a better targeted resistance training and or circuit training or Burst Training kind of workout. But that’s neither here nor there. But it connects back to the gut permeability, which could be causing a lot of your digestive issues if you’re over exercising.

Evan Brand: Yeah, I had a I had a girl who was in college, I want to say maybe sophomore junior in college, and she was running three to five miles per day, at least five days a week. So you’re talking 15, sometimes 20 miles a week, Her skin was a wreck, and her gut was a wreck. The only protocol for the first six weeks after we got the labs back was samana microbial herbs to address all the infections. And then we did some omegas we did some enzymes. And and then the piece that I think was most important was I told her Hey, only do two runs a week above a mile. So like a mile, you know, twice a week and then the other days you know, do something else do yoga, do stretching, do weightlifting. And that alone was enough to to significantly change her her story and she’s like, Oh my god, I didn’t realize how tired I was. I was beating myself into the ground. And these athletes, they get addicted to the endorphins from the running.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, there is the big endorphin rush. So kind of moral of the story here is do the low hanging fruit have the right foundational things, you may need to see a really good functional medicine practitioner to kind of get these things dialed up and lined up. Now our first healing nutrient, let’s plug it in right now would be zinc. Zinc is a very powerful nutrient in my gi restore. I have a zinc in there a zinc carnosine, which is a very absorbable zinc in the in the gut, which is great. That has been shown to decrease inflammation in the stomach. It’s also shown to be very helpful on the gut permeability side. And in some studies that’s actually been shown to decrease gut permeability induced by excessive cardio exercise. So keep that in the back of your head. back of your head there, zinc is gonna be one of those nutrients you’d want to be adding in. Very important, and it’s going to be foundational and zinc is also very high and a lot of paleo foods, right. And a lot of your high quality meats and seafood products you’re gonna get a lot of zinc will typically do, you know, anywhere between, you know, 10 to 30 milligrams of zinc in a day to really help on the gut permeability.

Evan Brand: Yeah, there’s a really good study on this American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 2016 zinc carnosine works with bovine colostrum and truncating heavy exercise induced increase in gut permeability in healthy volunteers. So, yeah, long story short, and we like colostrum too. So we will use that some people can’t tolerate it, but most people can. So take, you know, zinc alone or colostrum with I wasn’t on our original list of nutrients, but hey, it’s done really, really well for me and many people too. So why don’t I go ahead and throw colostrum into the mix as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, we’re gonna put our links to some of the products that we personally formulated and recommend for our patients and have been doing for years. We’ll put them down below. Evans gonna have his, what’s the name of your GI product?

Evan Brand: Mine’s called GI Sooth. So you do powder and I do capsules, they’re both great. You can’t go wrong with either one.

Dr. Justin Marchegian: Exactly. Mine is GI Revive is the designs for health product. Yours is the GI Sooth the mine is the GI Restore. And I’ve been using that one for about two, three years. That’s a phenomenal product. And then the thing with yours is you don’t have any additives or flavors in it. Neither does mine. The problem with the designs product has a little bit of additives and flavor in the powder form. And I’ve seen patients really react to some of these added flavors and sweeteners and gums. So you got to be very, very careful with that. You either want a powder that does not have a lot of sweeteners in there, or you want a capsule one that’s very important. So there’s some brands out there that are really good and clean, like I just mentioned, but have some of those binders in there. That could be a potential problem. So you really got to look at some of those binders.

Evan Brand: Yeah, we love them. But when you throw in natural flavors and then you’re throwing in tapioca dextran. I mean, a lot of people complain to me that if they’ve tried that one before with other practitioners that it would mess up their blood sugar too, because that tapioca, I don’t know the body recognizes them, you know, sort of as a blood sugar spike or so. So we, so we don’t use that one clinically, but a lot of people have used that one previously, if you’re working with like a naturopath, they may have brought that tool out on you, and it’s probably still going to do more good than than bad, but that’s not what we use.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think another low hanging fruit, a lot of people use this and a lot of people may even go do it to it as a first line therapy would be glutamine. Now, glutamine is excellent because it’s a primary fuel source by the parasites in the gut, which is awesome. So these are like the gut cells that make up the gut lining. These these cells are going to require a lot of glutamine. So glutamine is very, very important for providing that fuel source. It really helps provide good integrity kind of like collagen and glycine. glycine is also really good for the gut lining collagen provides Good integrity for hair, skin and nails. Think about glutamine is providing really good integrity for the gut lining. And the problem is, why does the gut become permeable when there’s lots of exercise? You know, Evan?

Evan Brand: I mean, cortisol is going to be my main my main thing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Catabolic physiology right and catabolic physiology. What does it primarily attack it attacks protein and amino acids, right? That’s why chronic cardio people that have a certain physique, right, they’re much more leaner, more emaciated looking, definitely less muscle tone than a sprinter. Just Google sprinter versus marathon runner, you’ll see an instantaneous side by side and what the difference is and part of it is because runners are going to engage in more catabolic physiology more cortisol, right. And sprinters are going to engage in more anabolic physiology testosterone growth hormone, right, and that’s going to cause muscles to grow. So l glutamine is going to help balance out that catabolic physiology now that catabolic physiology could be from overexercise. It could be from inflammation in the gut from gluten. Right? It could be from all those different things. It could be from potential infections. Now, we could use glutamine in a way that’s just symptomatic, right? Like we’re not getting to the root cause, meaning I have an infection. I have poor diet, but I take this, that’s okay. But we’re always trying to get to the root cause. So if we add in L glutamine, we’re gonna add it in with a lot of these other things as well and ensuring the root causes dialed into.

Evan Brand: Yeah, so you could say glutamine is basically anti catabolic. So looking at that zinc study, it was talking about how the intestinal permeability went up by what they say here three fold. So the intestinal gut permeability went up three fold after exercise the zinc or colostrum, basically truncated the rise by 70%. So if you threw in something like glutamine, which actually, you know, there are some kind of pre workout nutrients that we could use blends of amino acids that may have glutamine in there, and I’m sure with a good Grass Fed Whey protein, we We use some of those, you’re going to get some glutamine there too. And so to me, it’s, it’s the great, you know, maybe pre or kind of post workout nutrient as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct. I’d also say the synergistic nutrients that work with glutamine, I would say are also gags, which are like coastal amino glycans. You know, being a chiropractor for a while I work with a lot of disk patients. I don’t do this anymore. But a lot of the disk material, the raw material in that disk is made out of these guys like also amino glycans. And these can be severely impaired with lots of insulin and oxidative stress. And of course, if we’d have had digestion, we may not get enough of it through our diet, right? So we may add in an acetal Glucosamine, which is a form of a glyco glycosaminoglycans a gag for short, so very, very helpful and helping connective tissue helping the gut lining lots of anti inflammatory benefits and they kind of work in conjunction with the glutamine because they tend to be connected, and then we’ll connect in there the glycine right glycine is very high in collagen. So, collagen is also very high in glutamine, so glutamine, glycine and EDIS and an acetal glucosamine or the gags that the glycosaminoglycans are going to be very helpful at building blocks for the gut lining, and they’ll be a really good buffer for catabolic physiology when cortisol and stress is present. And that tissue starts to get broken down.

Evan Brand: Well, here’s another cool thing about glucosamine that came up in the research was that it helps to reduce biofilm with different pathogens like E. coli. So, you know, you and I, we talked so many times about using anti microbials. And we’ll come in and use our gut healing nutrients. What if there were some biofilm left behind? And by accident you and I were actually eradicating the biofilms therefore keeping people in good shape as opposed to allowing them a relapse if you didn’t do a gut healing phase is kind of just gives us a little more credit and ego boost for doing the gut healing phase. Because if you just came in and kill, kill, kill, maybe there was something left like a biofilm of ecola then comes back but this paper on the NSE two glucosamine it talks about, you know, reducing that biofilm formation so that’s pretty awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly and any of my patients that are listening biofilms are important. That’s why I recommend a specific ginger tea protocol. And the ginger tea I recommend is going to have one high dose ginger in it that’s juice ginger. Ginger is a very powerful biofilm Buster you can go into PubMed and just type in ginger and biofilms you’ll see dozens of studies. It’s also anti inflammatory, it’s very safe as well. It’s a natural blood thinner too. So it prevents a lot of the cells from getting stuck and sticky. And then also I typically recommend a little bit of the Manuka honey in there and Manuka honey really helps biofilms and has an antibacterial effect. But just dovetailing on what you were talking about regarding the gags the anesthetic glucosamine or the the glycosaminoglycans. They also have immuno inflammatory modulating effects, right. So we have different cytokines which are signaling molecules that are produced from the inflammation So these are like TNF alpha, this is nuclear factor Kappa beta, interleukin six different interleukin molecules, it helps modulate those and kind of dampen those down a little bit, which is helpful. So it’s kind of like the fire is going, and I’ll just kind of put that fire out. Now it may not be a root cause of the fire. But if you’re working with a good functional medicine doctor, they’re gonna make sure we use things that modulate the firewall at the same time we get to the root cause of the fire.

Evan Brand: Yeah, let’s talk about that real quick. There’s been a couple cases where we’ve had people in such bad shape that will actually come in and bring some of these gut healing gut soothing nutrients right away in the very beginning. I mean, if I’ve got somebody that’s so miserable, let’s say they’ve got major Cold Blood that’s showing up they’re bleeding every time they poop, I mean, their guts in bad shape. We may come in knowing it’s not root cause it’s palliative care, but we’ll come in and use gut soothers in the beginning, maybe even before we get to the end of microbial phase, I mean, if their guts just so so hurting we might not be able to come in and kill the parasites are whatever is at the root of this thing. Have you done that before? Have you come in and said, Oh my God, this person, they’re not even ready to go to the phase one we got to go phase like point five here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Patients have typical gut irritating symptoms in the top three to five complaints on their chief complaint list. And then we’ll add in some of these healing and soothing nutrients off the bat, I find a lot of my patients, I don’t really need to use them off the bat, if I get their diet and digestion working better, and I get enzymes and acids and food and maybe even, you know, some simple bone broth or some ginger tea in there. A lot of times I won’t need it. But anyone where it’s in that top five, will kind of come in there and use it for a couple of months just to really accelerate the healing, partly because I want to get people ready to deal with the gut killing part of the face. And if someone’s guts too raw, sometimes those herbs, they’re not going to tolerate them well. And the herbs right in my analogy of someone having a sunburn but needing a really good massage or a chiropractic adjustment because of their Their lower back, but at their skins really burned, they may not be able to receive that right? Same thing on the gut killing, we may need to come in there with some really powerful gut killing herbs. But patient is to run the mucosa. And they can’t handle the herbs, or they can’t even handle any stomach acid, right? So then we have to, that’s where it’s really important to get these things in on the front side.

Evan Brand: Yeah, and your average person listening who just wants to improve their health and their gut health, you may not be in that category where you have to go to gut healers, we’re talking to people that have been a gastro doc for 5-10 years, they’re really suffering or maybe they’ve just been undiagnosed this whole time, but they’re in really bad shape. That’s where we’re going to bring that out in the beginning. So your average person listening that may not apply.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: But you know, I think low hanging fruit for anyone is going to be collagen, we can always add in the collagen, which is going to have a lot of the glycine in there. And it’s also going to have some of the glutamine in there, right. And so that’s at least a good first line step because no one’s getting enough connective tissue in their diet unless they’re doing lots of bone broth soups. That’d be the only exception. So if you’re not doing a lot of bone broth, soups and things like that, You probably need some extra collagen in there. Yep, yep. So favorite brand. So I mean Evan has his gi su died my gi restore, but I also have my true collagen, which is a product that I formulated. And with that product, a lot of collagen or actually they add sulfuric acid into the collagen. with mine we were able to do proteolytic enzymes, why does that matter? It matters because your tummy doesn’t really have to do much of a breakdown process because the enzymes already make the the collagen so absorbable there’s very little digestion that has to happen to take in those nutrients. And when the guts really inflamed, you want a lot of these things pre digested so it’s easy for me to handle. We’ll put our links down below in the description below. 

Evan Brand: Beautiful, beautiful. So speaking of sunburn, let’s go on to the next one. Let’s talk about aloe. I love aloe, and actually have one I’ve got one called GI Sooth 2, which is just a straight aloe extract just because, you know there’s some cases where I don’t feel like we need the full shebang with the glutamine and all that. So we’ll just say well, let’s try out By itself, and there’s a paper here, some kind of pharmacology therapy paper, randomized, double blind placebo of oral and this is just aloe vera gel. This is not even the concentrated extract that we’re using, we’re talking just straight aloe vera gel for ulcerative colitis. And even just in four weeks, it was a clinically significant benefit for colitis. And so we’re talking people in major autoimmune gut issue and in four weeks, they’re in really, really good shape with it. That’s not going to happen with drugs, I’m sorry, the pharmaceuticals are not going to have that fast of an outcome. And it’s probably going to be a hell of a lot more expensive for for the drugs. And once again, it’s not really gonna, I don’t know it’s just not root cause for me aloes, more root cause it’s going to soothe the gut, it’s going to reduce the inflammation. It’s not just going to try to modulate some enzyme or modulate this. It’s just, I like it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Aloes, also has some anti inflammatory effects, right? There’s a so we talked about C reactive protein and nuclear factor Kappa beta and interleukins and cytokines. There’s another answer. There’s another inflammatory marker called MPO, or Milo peroxidase. And aloe helps modulate Milo peroxidase. And it’s also shown to have a lot of antispasmodic effects. So a lot of people that have IBS, for instance, a lot of times they have a lot of spasms. I know Evan, when you were diagnosed with IBS, at what, 10 years ago, they recommended a lot of antispasmodic drugs and it’s too bad yeah, you didn’t have that functional medicine knowledge. You know, you could have been taken out of the get go to help with that.

Evan Brand: I did. I didn’t do the drugs but yeah, they recommended them. And so luckily though, the the stats The funny thing about it, the spasms it wasn’t what I’ve learned our spasms clinically it was more just Hey, urgent, boom, gotta run to the bathroom. versus some people it’s they’re just sitting there at their chair trying to type on their computer and Boom, they’ve got these spasms happening. So for me, luckily, it wasn’t as miserable as it could have been. At the time, though, you know, even though I didn’t know what I know, now, I still was doing some of the enteric coated peppermint oil. And that was very, very helpful. I don’t mean of course, it wasn’t root cause it didn’t magically erase my infections, but the entire code of peppermint did do some good for me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s good. That’s excellent.

Evan Brand: And that wasn’t on our list, but why not throw it to the list? It’s gonna end up being like 12 nutrients for your gut, but we had to have some kind of buzz, you know, Buzz worthy title. So we said seven but peppermint, I think could also be considered.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, we’re gonna provide overvalue here. I would say next is gonna be sulfur compounds. So one of my favorite sulfur compounds is MSM, which is methyl sulfur on methane, so powerful organic sulfur compound. Again, first mechanism, what’s the underlying root cause mechanism for you science junkies out here? It’s going to be modulating your B cells, it’s gonna be modulating nuclear factor Kappa beta, it’s gonna be not not modulating TNF alpha, interleukin one, interleukin three Looking sick, these are all chemical signaling molecules from inflammation, it’s going to be decreasing Milo peroxidase, like the aloe, a lot of studies showing that MSM and these sulfur rich compounds are going to have a lot of powerful antioxidant compounds in there, really helping to suit providing a lot of, let’s say neutralization of the oxidative stress. Why is the oxidation there? Well, because of the inflammation, inflammation, cause oxidation. Oxidation is when you lose electrons. When cells lose electrons, they become very unstable, and that can create DNA damage. And so we need antioxidants, things that have extra electrons that can donate them. And that helps prevent the oxidation thus preventing the DNA damage. So the sulfur rich compounds, they reduce inflammation, interleukin cytokines, and they have antioxidant properties to help stabilize the cells in your gut. Very good.

Evan Brand: Well, how about the How about the Cox 2 pathway too because that’s going to change Increase inflammation and the MSM back can also down regulate Cox 2. So, I mean, you can’t say that it’s gonna act in the same way like is aspirin but I mean it can definitely help with some of the gut pain I would say associated with some of these infections.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well yeah also, you know, we know we need so the Cox two enzyme also is going to be modulated by, if you remember back in the early 2000s to drug Vioxx, that was a big drug also NSAID’s modulate that Cox two, right? Cox stands for cyclooxygenase. Two. The problem is if you do too good of a job blocking that enzyme, we need that enzyme to build up our gut lining build up our heart and stuff. That’s why we saw lots of strokes and even potential ulcerations from those kinds of medications because they do too good of a job. That’s the problem with drugs is they create lots of side effects herbs and they tend to have more of a modulating kind of use where they kind of bump it and move it in the right direction but not So far where it causes the side effects where drugs go way too far, and then you have a lot of side effects, right? Like it was a journal article in the New York, New England Journal of Medicine 1998 by Wolf at all talking about ibuprofen, killing 19,000 people a year taken appropriately. So the nice thing about these natural supports, if you’re not gonna have to worry about those kind of side effects, which is great.

Evan Brand: Wow, what was I mean, not to get too off subject, but what’s the mechanism on that? It’s just the intestinal bleeding that happened or-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -bleeding, which then affects the liver, which also can affect the alterations in the stomach. And that can also affect the heart. It’s so yeah, it’s that Cox enzyme is to to dampen and torque to good on it. And then that enzyme is needed to do other things that are important in the body. Wow It’s kind of like, imagine if like you had a high ashwagandha or high levels of cortisol and you took some ashwagandha demodulate it well, if it not cortisol all the way down. to the ground, you’d be in a state of Addison’s disease. Right? And yeah, like that you kind of trade one thing. It’s not all the time, right? And if people that are using it chronically, those are the ones that really have to worry about it. So if we’re going to use something more longer term, we want it to be more natural, because it’s gonna have a safer profile to it.

Evan Brand: Yeah. So if you’re out there and you’re on daily dose of ibuprofen, because you got a headache because you’re still eating gluten, you know, consider that your warning get off gluten, get rid of the headache. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% 100%. All right, what else do you want to chat about? How are we going to licorice?

Evan Brand: Love licorice. So let’s talk about the difference real quick, because you and I love licorice for many reasons. I mean, it’s one of those nutrients that can be used for different body systems. So we’re often going to use more of an active licorice for adrenals. So where you have the glycerin, the active component that can help extend the half life of cortisol. I use the analogy of plugging up your smartphone to one of those little battery packs where you’re going to get a little extra juice out of your phone. That’s what we use it for regarding adrenals if we’re working on that, but if you take the glycerin out, and you remove it, and then it becomes called dgl, where it doesn’t have the, the active component anymore, so it’s not necessarily going to affect cortisol now, now it turns into like a gut healing nutrient. So dgl is in both of our blends, and you and I’ve used it, I don’t know thousands of times by this point, and it makes things taste good to dgl. Like if you have it in some bitter herbs, it can, it can kind of blunt that nasty taste a bit

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. So DGL is excellent, you already talked about it. Regular licorice is going to have an effect that increases cortisol, which can then also increase your mineral corticoids, which hold on to water and sodium, which on the adrenal side may be a good thing if we need it, and we have a test showing low cortisol. But if we don’t have a test and we want to make sure we don’t over increase cortisol or our blood pressure, that’s why we use the test. dgl licorice though I think you kind of highlighted that dgl is is very powerful because you have the anti inflammatory benefits without the cortisol increasing blood pressure increasing sodium fluid retention effects.

Evan Brand: Yeah, I had a study here I was trying to see exactly what it said it was called integrative treatment of reflux and dyspepsia in children. Of course, all the good stuff licorice was on there gingers on the list here of botanicals. talked a little bit about sleep hygiene. Anyway, I was trying to just get a number right now in terms of how beneficial it was. It just talked about they didn’t say a number they just said here that compared to placebo licorice extract showed a significant decrease in the total symptom scores of the gut issues. So of course, they always put this in there, although more evidence is needed. DGL can help people wean off acid drugs acid blocking medication.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep, that’s powerful. I think we hit seven already, which is great. So let’s kind of go into a bonus round here off the bat, I would just say probiotics can be very helpful. A lot of times we don’t add probiotics in on the front side. But we’ll add them in after on the back side just because there’s a lot of things we can do on the front side, but probiotics, bifidobacterium, lactobacillus, acidophilus, etc. These have been shown to have anti inflammatory effects on the gut. And now the timing is everything because there’s a lot of things that you can do. The question is, at what time and the thing is, Evan and I have seen thousands of patients we have a lot of experience in the timing of things. So a lot of times we’ll use probiotics on the backside are really help. One, help gut permeability help IGA levels help crowd out a lot of these bad bugs which can them them in their own right, create inflammation. So if we crowd them out a little bit in a gentle way that can also reduce inflammation and then just naturally helping to modulate a lot of these interleukins and cytokines and all these compounds are very powerful.

Evan Brand: Yeah, I’ve been a bigger fan of probiotics. Lately just because of dealing with mold and trying to detox that out of my system and helping people deal with mold, there’s this pathway that happens. Basically, you can convert more toxic molds into less toxic molds using probiotics it basically, I don’t want to say it conjugates them because that’s not the mechanism but for lack of a better word, it’s sort of maybe de granulate. The mold toxin, makes it less toxic, and then you can excrete it out and the remaining toxin does less damage because now you’ve converted it. I don’t have it in front of me, but those are just charred of okra toxin, with the help of probiotics being converted into maybe alpha okra toxin or something. It’s kind of downstream tablet, and then downstream again, and then the toxicity drops with the help of probiotics. So long story short, I use probiotics all the time, and they work great.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. Also, let’s do a little bonus round people. Let’s talk about mold. This could be well, so we have gut infection that could also be big things that are holding people back. I don’t think we have to go into this in depth. We’ve done podcasts On this, but a lot of people forget about the mold aspect. Because mold has various mycotoxins, which can increase gut permeability. We’ve done a podcast where we go more into how we deal with this clinically, but can you just go over that concept, Evan?

Evan Brand: Yeah, the main thing is, you know, after interviewing a guy, Dr. Nathan, he’s a medical doctor been working on mold for 2025 years, he told me, he said, You can’t fully heal your gut unless you get rid of the mycotoxins and I thought, well, how is that true? Because, you know, I’ve been working with people for a while now. And I’ve had many people who their gut symptoms are so much better so that I just get lucky that those people did not have mold. Was I missing the mold? Or, or what? How could How could you say something so strongly, you can’t heal your gut without it. And then I started looking back at some of these cases where people would be in really good shape for a few months where you eradicate the infections, you come in with some gut healing nutrients, and then a few months later, they’d say, you know what, I’m kind of, I’ve got Candida coming back or my tongue is white again, or I’m having sugar cravings again, and now I’m Going kind of circling back to those people and testing them for mold, and I’m finding that they’re positive, they’ve got it, they’ve got toxic levels. So now we just throw it into the mix. It’s not that I’m saying it’s the end all be all biomarker, it’s the end all be all catalysts for leaky gut at all. But if you’re somebody who’s gone down the rabbit hole of addressing H, pylori parasites, bacterial overgrowth, and all that, and your integrative natural functional, whoever practitioner didn’t look at this piece, I would consider it because it’s also the mechanism of weakening the immune system. So it’s not just the direct damage on the gut barrier, but I would assume that weakening the immunity has a role in this too. I mean, if you look at <INAUDIBLE> acid, something we test for, they give that to people when they’re doing organ transplants, so that it’ll kill the immune system so much that their body won’t reject the new organ. I mean, that’s how they use any conventional medicine. So this stuff is potent, potent, potent, and then you’ve got things like glio toxin, which affects the gut and the brain. So It’s a game changer. I mean, I feel like we talk about it so much now, but it’s really transformed my life and in our clinical lives too, because this is the epidemic. We used to not build houses with drywall. And now we do. So when you look at your great, great grandpa, he didn’t have a problem because this house was built with plaster. And now the house is built with drywall with paper backing. So it’s it’s a new epidemic, but I do believe it’s the number one cause of chronic fatigue that we’re seeing out there based on Dr. Brewer study, you know, 95 plus percent of his patients with chronic fatigue tested positive for mold, and all those chronic fatigue patients, they often have gut symptoms. So a lot of people have diarrhea, and they’re tired. Is it the diarrhea causing the fatigue? Maybe, but it also could be the mold. So that’s my rant on that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, the only comment, I would say it just really depends, right? Because I’ve seen a lot of patients that are in a moldy environment or could be in a moldy environment. I have seen a lot of benefit and a lot of improvement, with a lot of the foundational changes that we do without even talking mold. So it just depends upon how chronic and how much is there. And then also genetically how sensitive you are to mold. There are some genetic types, they can just handle a lot of mold, and some not. So I don’t think it’s a be all end all. But I think it’s definitely an important factor that should be on our checklist, and we should be aware of it. And anytime we see a chronic health issue, we should be testing for mold in the home as an easy low hanging fruit. Because if you have high levels of mold in the home, you know, that can affect everyone in the house, right, which is great. You don’t have to test everyone’s urine individually. But then once we see high levels in the home, then we can go and start being more specific on what that individual person’s load is. And then, you know, my biggest thing is, Hey, if you’re out of the home for a week or two, how do you feel? Do you feel better, and I’ve seen a lot of patients they’re out for a week or two, they come back and it’s like, boom, now we got to be careful if you’re out of the home because you’re on vacation and you’re hanging out relaxing all week or two, and then you come back to a stressful environment. That could be a factor too. So you got to keep stress under under that control, so to speak. So you’re comparing apples to apples.

Evan Brand: True, true. But yeah, I mean, Dr. Nathan, when he’s talking about he can’t heal the gut unless you get rid of mold. Yeah, maybe in the 25% of the population who doesn’t genetically detox mold. But you and I have seen so many cases of probably the 75% of people who they can detox mold, so it wasn’t an issue. And that’s why we we were like you mentioned able to get them such good progress and results in success without even addressing them all, because they were probably genetically gifted. He seen the genetically gifted like me, who built the mold toxin up and then it had some downstream effects.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And also, if you get tested for mold, and you’re gonna test your urine, make sure you challenge it with a lucify on for at least a couple of days to a week ahead of time, I typically recommend one gram of solidify on a day, you know, for three to seven days ahead of time, too many people I see come in, they’re like, Oh, my molds, fine. And I’m like, did you do a challenge ahead of time? They’re like, nope. So you got to make sure you’re really challenging the urinary mold levels ahead of time. Can you speak to that?

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s very helpful. And if you’re you might not need a gram. If you’re doing that. Like a better quality if it’s like bizarre more maybe a seagull you may get away with, you know, a few hundred milligrams to half a gram. You know that less? Yeah,

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: yeah, it was almost probably 500 milligrams to a gram would be fine if it’s SSE or one of the other types that we like, then you get a couple hundred milligrams, it’s probably fine.

Evan Brand: Yeah, but the sawn has been helpful too. I’ve had some people just as an experiment, right? You and I are we’re experimenters. We’re in the trenches. So I’ll have people you know, I’ll have you know, Jane Doe I’ll have her do five days glue to fine and then I’ll tell her on the morning of when you wake up hold up, jump right in the sauna 2030 minutes then collected Whoa, it’s crazy how much more you see coming out. So and we know that we know that heating up the body helps mobilize toxins of all kinds. So if we’re going to do like a combo urine, organic acid, Miko chemical profile, man, we really do get a better read on people. My analogy is it kind of squeezes the orange, you know, in the cup of tea shows up just more accurate.

Yep, totally. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Totally. Makes a lot of sense. Well, let’s wrap it up if you’re ready for the highlight today. 

No, I’m done. You want to wrap this thing up? 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think so. I think we’re on the right track with everything. So anyone want to reach out to myself available worldwide for console Evan at So if you guys want to dive in deeper and get to the root of what’s happening here, we are happy to help you. We do a lot of these testing all over the world. So if you’re coming in, we test them all. We’ll test the gut, we’ll do all these things. We have kind of have the right algorithm, the right formula to kind of get people on that healing journey. Anything else? Anything you want to highlight around?

Evan Brand: I would just say that the issues we talked about are worldwide. You know, this is not just an American problem. You know, we’ve got clients in Australia, we’ve got clients in Canada, we’ve got clients in Europe. I mean, this is this is something happening around the world and it’s amazing how many people don’t get the proper help that they need from the conventional doctors. It’s really really sad. I was looking at my podcast reviews this morning. And of course, you know, I and you were in the alternative health category and I thought you know what we need to stay in this alternative. Category until this becomes the mainstream, you know, and that and people have made that argument before that what we’re doing. This is the original medicine. This is what people were doing thousands of years before the quote, conventional medicine existed before the vaccines and the drugs and the prescriptions and the acid blockers. Allah was around before all of that. So this is not really alternative or, or new age at all. This is just legit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%, appreciate it. We’ll put the recommended products that we love. Evan has GI Sooth, I have my GI Restore, we’ll put the links down below so if you guys wanna support us, we appreciate that. And you guys have a fabulous day. Take care ya’ll.

Evan Brand: Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.


Audio Podcast:

Why Can’t I Tolerate Probiotics – Probiotic Intolerance | Podcast #293

Today’s episode talks about Probiotics. Probiotics is a live bacteria that is good for our body, especially in our digestive system. Probiotics are called good or healthy bacteria because it helps in keeping our gut healthy. Dr. Justin, together with Evan Brand talks about probiotic intolerance, how to tolerate them and how and when to take them correctly. Check out this link to know more.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

1:10   Probiotics

5:59   When Probiotics Go Wrong

8:33   How Do We Tolerate Fermented Foods

26:11  Dairy Infused Probiotics

31:22  Best Time for Probiotics

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani: All right. And we are live. It’s Dr. J here in the house with Evan Brand. Today we’re going to be chatting about probiotic intolerances. Why can’t I tolerate my probiotics? Let’s dive in. Evan, how you doing, man? 

Evan Brand: Doing really well excited to dive into this topic. Probiotics are one of those. What do you call them? Maybe low hanging fruit things that will pop up on a news article or on mainstream news, or maybe a TV commercial even. So your average person compared to something like using activated charcoal and berberine and those kind of more nuanced functional medicine, medicine things. Your average Joe Schmo probably is at least heard of probiotics. And the problem with when things become mainstream, is they lose all the disclaimers and they lose all the caveats to when these things are good. So you’ll hear somebody probiotic yogurt or probiotic this and it’s like okay, great. Probiotics must be good for you. I’m going to go take one and then I take it and then I run down The bathroom with diarrhea and I almost crapped my pants on the way to the bathroom. I’ve heard that story Why? And I’m like, Okay, well let’s unpack it. So that’s what today’s podcast is about.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% So, probiotics, right? What are they beneficial bacteria primarily in the family of lactobacillus bifida bachter, there are some other kind of pseudo probiotics like Saccharomyces boulardii, which is more of a beneficial yeast that can help potentially grow with the probiotics are beneficial bacteria and can help outcompete bad guys like fungus and yeast and other bad bacteria. We also have spore based probiotics, which are a little bit different tend to be more either soil based or spore base in the family of the bacillus family right, bacillus Clos Ei bacillus, subtlest Bacillus coagulants, like conformist, etc. And these are different types of bacteria. So typically when we talk probiotics, we’re typically talking more on the befo lactobacillus species side of the fence now, anthropologically, evolutionarily, we got exposed to a lot of good bacteria urea whether it was from just the soil right, not quite cleaning our vegetables, but having some having some soil on that and you get some of the bacteria in the soil on our food. Hence the the role for soil or spore based probiotics supplementally primarily you get through fermentation with whether it’s pickles or kimchi or sauerkraut or some kind of a fermented tea that we see more in modern day kombucha. These are typical ways that we get exposed to beneficial bacteria in our diets. And this is healthy, and today we’ve therapeutically, you know, gone one step above by dialing in probiotics from an oral pill, whether it’s VSL, three, or are different higher dose bifida or lactobacillus species, different kinds, whether it’s lactobacillus acidophilus or para kci or infantis or bifidobacterium, long GM, etc. all these different species that we see that have a lot of anti inflammatory effects according to the literature, they can help reduce back to infections, food poisoning, diarrhea, some cases they can help improve constipation. And again, these are things that we’ve seen clinically, right? When you do a study, Evan and I were talking about this pre show, you have to control a lot of variables. And let’s say someone’s eating, probiotics or fermented foods, but their diet stinks or their sleeps crappy as other variables in their life that could affect things. So clinically, we’ve seen amazing results with probiotics. It’s a powerful low hanging fruit. But the question really, today is what happens when probiotics go bad? Why is that occurring? Meaning what happens when probiotics cause negative symptoms or side effects?

Evan Brand: Yep, you did a great, great job to talking about the kind of the prehistoric aspect of this because, you know, the the average skeptical person who doesn’t want to buy supplements and thinks it’s snake oil or whatever. They may say, Well, why why all the sudden Do we need probiotics? My grandparents didn’t take probiotics and they lived till they were 96. And you answered it, you know, even if we don’t go as far back as the hunter gatherer tribalism It even just great parents, you know, great grandparents. They’re living off the land. Like my grandpa’s grandpa had 350 acres. They were eating chicken right out of the backyard. They were in the soil all day, he had a horse to help him till the dirt. I’m sure he was getting his hands dirty all day. And he had a great long, healthy life. So today, we’re removed from that you’ve got the conventional even in the organic industry, you’ve got things that are happening, like potentially the chickens being exposed to chlorine, or just even in tap water. You know, there’s all sorts of different products, chemicals, drugs, pharmaceuticals in tap water. So if you’re getting this conventional organically or organically raised chicken, and it’s at Whole Foods, is it better than like the factory farm stuff? Yeah, but now I’m even seeing there’s these organic factory farms that a lot of Whole Foods is using where they’re basically just big warehouses in their organic feed, but they have nothing to do with being pastured and that reduces the nutrient density of Animals. Of course, if you go out to a restaurant and go get chicken fajitas if it’s not labeled or classified as being free of antibiotics or getting a dose of antibiotics that’s killing the good bacteria in your gut. So there was a guy I believe his name is Jared. I believe his last name is leech. I think it’s Jared Leach, maybe Jeffrey leech. I have to look it up. But anyway, it’s a guy who went to East Africa and Tanzania and was looking at the guts, his whole Microbiome Project that he’s running. And he just looked at the diversity of people’s gut. And he compared typical American people versus these hostile people who were basically eating zebra meat and tubers, and honey, and the diversity of the bacteria was off the charts, and these people, so so I know, this is a long story and rant and I’m rambling but the point was, we don’t have diversity in our guts anymore. So probiotics are our attempt to help increase the diversity and increase the number of strains and the amount of strains of good guys that we have.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% so let’s kind of dive in to the aspect of when probiotics go wrong or when and probiotics create negative symptoms. So one of the first things if we have a lot of bad bacteria in our gut, right dysbiotic bacteria, right? This could come up on a stool test, we may run a breath test and see various gases at higher levels like methane or hydrogen. These gases can disrupt motility, right, more methane gas can create constipation, more hydrogen gas can create diarrhea, sometimes there’s just alternating between between the two. And when we have a higher amount of bad bacteria, like what’s bad bacteria, so we could have overgrowth of E. coli or central factor or klebsiella, or Proteus, or a bunch of other ones out there, Pseudomonas Mirabilis, right, different species of bad bacteria, these critters when exposed to probiotics, because probiotics are essentially a fermentable compound, right? So they’re kind of in that fodmap family, right. Fodmap stands for fermentable oligo disaccharide mono and polyols. Polyols being like xylitol, all right? So they’re kind of in that fermentable aspect of fodmap. So a lot of people with SIBO or generalized dysbiosis right, generalized dysbiosis just means there’s a bad bacterial overgrowth. SIBO says specifically were that bad bacterial overgrowth is ie the small intestine. When you consume these beneficial bacteria that can be a war in your tummy, where those beneficial bacteria ferment and feed some of that dysbiotic bacteria and can create more gases and those gases can then disrupt motility either create tummy aches, nausea, can throw off motility and either increase constipation or increased diarrhea.

Evan Brand: And it sounds a little bit cliche because we’ve said it so many times. But we talked about the order of operations with fixing the gut. And we talked about how you don’t want to fertilize the garden before you pull the weeds. And that’s essentially what you’re saying because if we come in, let’s say we have Jane Doe who comes in the door. She has gut complaints, maybe it’s gas, bloating, burping, constipation, etc. And she’s been on probiotics, she went to Whole Foods and bought some and she felt bad. She doesn’t know why we’re going to run a comprehensive stool test on her. We’re going to run an organic acid urine test on her, we’re going to look at it. And if we see that there’s all these major overgrowth, you’re talking about Pseudomonas and Morganella and Streptococcus and staff and whatever else, we’re typically going to pull them off the probiotics immediately, and then we’re going to come in with what probably some kind of an antimicrobial antifungal or combo.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. Now one of the things that I see at my new patient consult and I’m dealing with patients for the first time, we’re typically dealing with patients that have already making a lot of diet changes. One of the first questions I ask is, how do you tolerate fermentable foods? Like when you have kimchi or sauerkraut or some kombucha? How do you deal with it? And they either tell me they do great or they have a lot of negative symptoms. Anytime someone tells me they have negative symptoms, I automatically know there’s more than one A bad bacterial overgrowth there. And it’s to the point where that small amount of beneficial bacteria from the fermentation process is feeding that bad bacteria and you’re getting a feeding frenzy. Right? Your child would that mean now sharks are there? 

Evan Brand: What would that mean when you say? Yes, Dr. J, I do kombucha and I feel bad. What are you expecting these people to report from that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: They’re talking about typically some level of bloating or gas, or some type of motility issue slow or fast motility, diarrhea, constipation, and then of course, you may even get belching, bloating, those kind of things on top of it. So those are the biggies. And then when we see that happening, it’s usually the bacteria is just feeding off of the fermentable carbohydrate, and is then now spitting out excess methane or hydrogen gas that’s creating those symptoms. And it could even be throwing off motel throwing off digestion too, because when you’re when you’re really gassy, and you’re really blody it’s possible that there’s not a lot of stomach Acid there. And that could create more stress in the intestinal tract, thus decreasing enzymes and acid production. So it’s very possible that now we have poor digestion and then we eat our next meal, and maybe even harder to break down. So all those things are very possible when we have this level of bacterial overgrowth and probiotics come into the mix. So first checkmark is Hey, how do you feel when you consume fermentable foods? Do you feel neutral? Better? worse? We’re yet with that the first lecture last?

Evan Brand: Let’s throw in the brain to because-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’m sorry, the brain fog is one of the another big one. But we could talk about why that is to the whole mechanism.

Evan Brand: Okay, yeah. But that’s what I was going to mention because somebody’s listening to what you just said they’re going to go Okay, great. He said this, this, this and that. I don’t have any of those gut symptoms. I just get so brain fog. I can’t even find where I put my phone or my keys after I drink kombucha. What the heck does that mean?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So we’re just talking about kind of the the SIBO gas kind of mechanism. The other mechanism that we may see could be coming from histamine or various biological a means that are produced from the probiotics, right? So we could have a histamine release from the probiotics, right? or biological aiming stimulation, which is then going to, you know, the common histamine side effects or symptoms come into play. This could be headaches, this could be brain fog are cognitive issues. So, yeah, that’s a really good call on that, that kind of goes outside of just the the SIBO methane hydrogen kind of gas thing. That’s, that’s more of a histamine kind of response.

Evan Brand: Yeah, because that was me. I mean, I didn’t have that many gut symptoms. I remember being down in Austin, there’s like, it’s like the kombucha capital down there. And we were trying a bunch of different ones. We’d go out to like a grass fed burger joint, get kombucha on tap, and I would drink it and it was like I was drunk. And I was like, Whoa, I had major cognitive issues. So I think there probably was a histamine component, but I believe that whole acetal aldehyde issue is probably part of it as well, you and I’ve talked about this idea of Candida overgrowth producing this a pseudo aldehyde or other toxins and it’s similar to an alcohol molecule where people are basically getting drunk on their own internal alcohol production. And so that can for me, I think that can be a sign that something’s going on as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I mean, with probiotics that they can, you know, you can have a little bit of alcohol production as a byproduct of fermentation, right. That’s how alcohol is made. So there’s a tiny bit there. All right, that that is also possible. Number two is histamine dilates blood vessels, right? And it brings immune cells to the area. That’s part of how the immune system works. Like if you go bump your elbow, it starts to swell up. Why is it swell up, that’s histamine was a swelling, it’s swelling, because the immune system is trying to open up blood vessels to help with the inflammation. So that’s kind of like the whole idea is you don’t want the immune response to go over too much. And that’s why you ice it down to keep it from getting to swelling. But as a combination, you want some of that there, but when you’re eating histamine and that immune reactions happening, and let’s say those blood cells, those white blood cells are going into your brain Well, we know the more immune activity activity in the brain can cause more brain fog, or we know the micro glial cells in the brain, when overly activated can create brain fog. And so if you’re noticing, you know, more swelling or redness, more itchiness, more cognitive issues, more headaches, that could be a big issue. Now, you could always just try consuming more da o enzyme with the hiss with the probiotics with the fermented foods. You could also look at doing oral probiotics that are lower in histamine species, like the lactobacillus para kci is one that’s a higher histamine one as well. The lactobacillus Helvetica is another one lactobacillus hell guardi and thermophilus and buck Neary are going to be lactobacillus species that are higher in histamine. So there are some species that will be lower. You can also try even consuming more soil or spore based probiotics, which can be helpful too. And or just consuming some extra da Oh, while taking the probiotics. See if that neutralizes as well. So a couple little experiments you can do to see if that moves the needle in the right direction.

Evan Brand: So let’s talk about the fact that when you address the gut, that your tolerance is going to improve of probiotics, right? Even if you, let’s say, you come in and let’s say you’ve got a bunch of parasites and bacterial overgrowth going on, if you come in and bring herbs in, just at the end of that protocol to eradicate or reduce those infections, you should, in theory, tolerate probiotics better Is this true?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So repeat that one more time, want to make sure I grabbed all that.

Evan Brand: Just knocking down the bugs alone, you’re going to tolerate probiotics more.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So a couple things. It just depends. So patients come in, they’re telling me Hey, I have problems with fermented foods. So one of the first things that we’re going to do is we’re going to go on a lower fodmap diet, and we’re going to starve out some of these critters. So the first mechanism is we’re starving. So lower fodmap kind of template, cutting out the fermentable oligo, disaccharide, mono and poly all foods that creates a starvation like effect and that can beat down the critters Without having to kill them just by cutting down their fuel source. It’s kind of like yeast and sugar, right? You go lower sugar, lower carb, you can starve out some of the Candida, that the one of the first things and then we work on digesting as well because if we have a lot of bacterial overgrowth, we know low stomach acid is a common issue with bacterial overgrowth. So we work on good enzymes good acid production, we make sure that we’re digesting our food well and we have good motility if we’re going into the bathroom every two three days, while we’re making ourselves toxic through our toxins in our in our stool. So we so there’s the six hour approach that I’ve done for a decade here, and it goes with every patient and now what there’s different aspects of each hour that we’ll talk about that we can implement. So the first art is removing the bad foods. Now for some patients that could be a paleo template for some that’s a paleo autoimmune low fodmap. Some it’s carnivore, some it’s a low salicylates low low fodmap kind of sad template. There’s there’s different ways and different levers that we can move within that First, remove our The second error is to replace and enzyme replace acid, maybe bile salts, maybe maybe bitters. It depends on how good or bad someone’s guts guts that for that. The third hour is going to be repairing the digestive tract or in and or repairing the hormones because hormones are specially adrenal, they play a huge role in reducing inflammation, and people that have a lot of gut issues. their immune system is overstressed. They’re usually inflamed, and they’re also pretty tired. So getting good hormone support can decrease inflammation, help with energy up with mood. The fourth hour is going to be removing the infections when we go after things in order of operations. So there’s different h pylori, there’s yeast, there’s parasites, there’s bacterial overgrowth, there’s an order of how we hit those for best success. And this is where the killing of a lot of this stuff comes into play. So the first major component that allows us to be able to potentially let’s say, get exposed to fodmaps or probiotics in the future and be able to tolerate it is first Start things out. The second thing is kill things. And the third thing is going to be crowded out. And then once we’ve done that fourth are the remover then we use specific botanicals to help knock these herbs down or knock these critters down, which then allow us to handle probiotics, or fermentable foods is now repopulating reenact collating with probiotics. And we may choose different species depending on what you can or can’t handle. So typically, I’ll come in there and I’ll challenge and see if our probiotic intolerance has changed. And we may add in different lactobacillus species or we may go to more spore based species or saccharomyces species or low histamine species. So I’ll kind of test it in between and we’ll see what works and then we retest, want to make sure that infections are gone and no new infections have come back sometimes a infection that wasn’t there originally could come back like h pylori or a parasite. So you have to test it on both sides to ensure that we’re knocking it out. 

Evan Brand: It does, are you going to retest before or after probiotic Like let’s say you do a round of herbs, knock bugs down, then you come in probiotics, are you going to test after that? Are you going to kill test, see what the results are then maybe kill again, then do probiotics.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I typically retest about one month into probiotics. And the reason why I do is because probiotics can help reduce inflammation. Right. So if someone’s guts inflamed, you’re going to see a major improvement, inflammation wise post probiotics, or at least, you know, given enough runway for them to work, I find that a month is usually pretty darn good. And then number two, the immune system can improve with probiotics. So we can see improvements in IGA and we know probiotics can help with digestion to and I would say the third thing after that is probiotics have been shown to help improve gut permeability partly through I think inflammation partly through crowding bugs out they can help with gut permeability, hence autoimmune stuff. And so those are the big reasons why immune digestion and gut permeability significantly can improve and inflammation right now. can improve post probiotics. So I give it about a month or so that I find patients got settle? Much better.

Evan Brand: Yeah, yeah. Good call.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What do you notice clinically?

Evan Brand: Well, I mean, it depends because if you come in let’s say you take Joe who’s got all these gut symptoms, he showed up with three parasites H. pylori, he’s done triple therapy. So he’s already been on antibiotics, you know, his guts a mess. He’s got calprotectin through the roof, we might come in and do six to eight weeks of herbs. And then I’ll let him just kind of rest not even probiotics yet, depending on how he’s feeling, maybe some gut soothing herbs just sprinkled in for a couple of weeks just to see how he feels when he gets off the end of microbials. And then if he’s off for a week or two, then we’ll kind of debate Okay, based on the progress or do we go into gut healing probiotics yet? Well, you know what, I’m still having major in consistencies with my bow some days it’s loose some days it’s good some days I’m really tired some days I’m really bloated. Okay, sounds like there’s an issue. She’s still going. So sometimes I’ll come in and just go ahead and run a second round of verbs to knock bugs down, then go into either gut healing probiotics and then a retest. So it depends on the person like every answer we talked about.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, some people do really great with probiotics afterwards, some can get a little bit of a loose stool. So I always try to ease it in there. But I find most people are going to do much better. Can I my analogy is this right? You go to the garden you don’t go throw down seeds. When there’s a whole bunch of weeds in the garden you kind of get the weeds pulled up why that creates space for the seeds to grow, right? weeds will outcompete the seeds. And when the seeds start to grow any anyone that’s good in lawncare will tell you once you have a really good foundation for good grass growing, the good healthy grass will actually crowd out weeds from growing. So I kind of use that philosophy cleaned it up, really get some good seeds down really work on that good healthy gut microbiome through through healthy diet and through you know, good you know, decreased consumption of sugar refined processed crap maybe add in a little bit of carbohydrate that may help feed gut bacteria very, very gently and that allows that the grass to grow which then outcompetes a lot of the bad critter so we d weed or D weed first and then throw it on the seat second, right? You go to the carwash you get the car wash. If you go to the automatic carwash, right. You go in what’s the first thing that happens? It washes your car first soap it, wash it, rinse it and then it waxes it right then it puts the wax or the rain acts on afterwards. You never put the wax on a dirty car. You got to clean the car off first before you get the wax on Think of the wax as the probiotics in this nature.

Evan Brand: Yep. And we’re not coming in with antibiotics ever because we don’t prescribe that stuff. When when somebody comes in. I had a woman last week Unfortunately, she had double whammy, C diff and H pylori. And she had already been through the triple therapy. So the doctors gave her all sorts of very, very powerful antibiotics. She did it for months and months and months we retest her stool. She’s Still has CDF she still has H. pylori. So we’re coming in with now botanicals instead. And luckily the success rate is very good. And the bacteria in general haven’t developed any sort of resistance to the herbs. So if you’re someone listening and you’re saying, Well, why is your all’s method better? Well, because the antibiotics there’s this antibiotic resistance phenomenon going on And the same thing is happening with fungus. Now the CDC is freaking out about Candida, believe it or not, they’ve got this huge bulletin about Candida. Oh my god, they antifungal drugs aren’t working anymore. Well, luckily, the antifungal herbs we use still work great and far better and safer than the drugs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well problem with with the antibiotics is the antibiotics don’t really address the efflux pumps that despotic or, you know, bad bacteria use so efflux pumps, essentially think of like you’re in a canoe, right? And the canoes got a hole in it and you start taking on water, right. Ideally, if you’re in that canoe and you don’t do anything would happen. into the canal,

Evan Brand: You’re going to sink.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Sinks, right? So think of efflux pumps has given someone a bucket and allowing them to bail that water out of the canoe. If you’re bailing water out of the canoe at the same speed that it’s coming in, you can stay afloat theoretically, right? Yeah, that makes sense. So think of the efflux pumps is giving that bad bacteria a bucket to bail that antibiotic back out into the intercellular space. And so essentially, these efflux pumps are like this bucket bailing the antibiotic back into the intercellular space. So some of these herbs actually have a flux pump inhibitor aspects to it. So it’s like ripping away that bucket from that person on the canoe so they can’t bail water. Now the canoe is doomed to sink now that bacteria is doomed to take on that antimicrobial compound and sink or be eradicated faster. Does that make sense?

Evan Brand: It does, and we’ve talked about that before I think. I think we talked about berberine and efflux pumps, didn’t we, maybe-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Berberine and Artemisha have really good success together. And a lot of these herbs work very good synergistically.

Evan Brand: That’s the other hard part we were talking about before we hit record on talking about studies, you know, you’ll look at this one strain or this one herb isolated. But we never do that. I mean, we may use 510 15 herbs in combination, and No, that doesn’t mean we’re going to sell you 15 bottles. That means we have formulas that we have where we’ve got five to 10 herbs in one formula. So if you take one capsule, you’re getting a broad spectrum of all sorts of antifungal, antimicrobial, anti parasitic together, and how in the world can you ever quantify the synergistic effects of herbs? I just don’t know of a way to do it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Also, the amount the potency, right, you know, very, very high levels. So we can have a therapeutic effect, like we talked about the whole Pixie dusting effect. A lot of people that sell some of these compounds online and it looks pretty looking at the back to the ingredients but you need the potency. So when we have we have our patients taking it that microbials I mean the doses Pretty strong to ensure that we’re going to have a therapeutic effect.

Evan Brand: Yeah, I did a little plug before one of my podcast episodes the other day. So I’m going to just say kind of what I said in that plug, which was that you and I are working with people clinically, we’re in the trenches. We’re not just reading like a PubMed article than doing a podcast and trying to show that like, we’re the boss. We’re the experts here. We learn from the studies and papers, sure, but the most we learn is from clinically working with thousands of people and implementing things and figuring out what works and what doesn’t, and then tweaking the game plan according to that. And so, when it comes to supplements and herbs and nutrients we’re using, they’re all top top top tier, you can only access these herbs and nutrients and even get available products to put it in a bottle if you’re a practitioner. So we’re not doing consumer manufacturing, contract manufacturing, or you’re just grabbing random herbs in a warehouse throwing a label on it and putting it on Amazon. No, we have practitioners sort of over our heads that are helping to monitor the quality The purity, the potency, they’re testing for mold and mycotoxins and heavy metals and all that. So if you ever buy anything from us, whether your client patient or not, just know that you’re getting some legit good stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. Also a couple other components I wanted to highlight is some probiotics. They’re grown in the base of dairy. So if you’re getting probiotics that could have some dairy in it, whether it’s the casein in the dairy, that’s the protein, or whether it’s lactose that could potentially create a side issue. So a lot of times the probiotics that we’re using, and that we create, they’re going to typically be dairy free. So if there’s any dairy sensitivity issues, we can kind of pull that variable out. So my line I use one called pro bio flora, it’s got 12 to 13, lactobacillus and bifidobacterium species that are that work phenomenal, very potent, and they’re also going to be dairy free as well. So that’s one that I’ve used pro bio flora, I’ll put the link down below. Also a high quality, saccharomyces polarity, which does work excellent. You can have really good immune benefits and anti Candida benefits too. And then I’ll also have have specific spore based probiotics. So one of the ones that I’ve been using for a while is megaspore. biotic, which I do, like, I think it works really, really good. I like that. And these probiotics can hang around a lot longer, they can potentially eat a lot of the growth of other bacteria so they can help some of the other good bacteria grow. Probiotics don’t last forever. So like the whole idea that like I’m just I’m putting bacteria in my tummy and they’re gonna be there forever. Pulling up the case you lose about a four week kind of transients cycle. That’s why getting exposed to good probiotics, whether it’s from supplement or from fermented foods kind of more on a regular basis is good. I always tell patients, you know, get a bottle of probiotics in your system probably every quarter. If you know as they’re so good rule of thumb, even if you are not consuming even if you’re consuming fermentable carbohydrates and you can tolerate them IE kombucha, kimchi, sauerkraut, get a bottle of probiotics and once a quarter or number two, if you can’t tolerate any fermented foods at all, then you should be taking probiotics, you know at least one or two capsules daily. You know, in my line we’re typically doing, you know, 40 to 80 billion probiotics therapeutically. If you go too much higher than that probiotics can have a cathartic like effect, they can really crowd out ecological niches of bad bacteria. So you have to be careful, I always recommend starting a little bit low. And usually people are packaging about maybe five to 20 billion per capsule or so. And then you can kind of start with, you know, one to four, maybe up to six caps a max on that and see how you do and again, when we manufacture our probiotics, you’ll see on the outer label Cfu, which stands for colony forming units, and we’ll say how many colony forming units are in there. When we say how many CFCs are in there, we’re stating how much is there at expiration? Not at manufacturer manufacturing, there’s actually far more to compensate for the loss just have he and transportation so we always overpack it. So what you see as Cfu is at expiration, and a lot of the cheaper probiotics, you see, it’s the opposite. They say, what’s in there at manufacturing, and what’s in there and expiration ends up being far less. And that’s a little trick the supplement industry puts out, it’s a little bit deceiving. That’s why you want to spend good money on good probiotics that are going to label it more accurately.

Evan Brand: Yeah, great point. And that’s just another reason that we get five star reviews clinically, and on the podcast, too. So thanks for reviewing the podcast, but the clinical things, you know, the most important to us because at the end of the day, if we give you something and sell it to you, and we don’t get the result, you’re not going to be happy. You’re not going to tell your friends, your family, you’re not going to get them on board. So we have to perform we kind of have this performance pressure on us. And so yeah, we can’t play around and I’ve had too many people go to Trader Joe’s and I bought the probiotic at Trader Joe’s and it did nothing. It’s like oh my god, let’s open that can of worms. It’s not apples to apples.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. When you are facing the people that are buying the products you recommend And you need to, you need to perform therapeutically. You can’t cut corners on quality and potency and purity, you just can’t do it because you develop a reputation through getting people better. And it’s like if I’m a painter and I’m painting your house, I’m not going to just use the cheapest paint and then in three or four years you’re pissed off because you have to paint the house 10 years early, you choose the highest quality paint so you have the best result right? Same thing in the supplement industry. You can get the cheapest stuff or you can buy the more expensive stuff you can buy meat that’s McDonald’s quality, you can buy meat that’s from the grass fed, organic farmer down the street, right so we want to choose the highest quality which probiotics are in your lineup and I know mine’s the pro bio Flora I have sacro Flora I do a megaspore that I special order that I carry that one at my store. I love those. What do you use?

Evan Brand: Nice my two Well, I guess I have three bestsellers the pro bio might see same thing freeze dried Saccharomyces Boulardii, Profile my C’s, It’s amazing. The Pro Biosphere like these little balls with the with the delayed release technology and Oh, that’s nice. And then the Probiotic Pro like professional, that’s the one that’s the dairy free. So that’s the one with the fog in there the prebiotic fibers in the probiotic and that one is it’s killer for IBS and UTI. It’s hard to believe that you can put something in the gut and positively improve you t eyes, but it works like a charm for that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And now people always ask probiotics, if you do it with food or empty stomach, I kind of default to an empty stomach. Just because some of these probiotics these bacteria can be, let’s just say killed with acid. Now the spore based probiotics tend to be able to be acid resistant so you can use with food. There’s some beneficial effects of taking probiotics with food, though, from a digestive standpoint. So probiotics can actually help improve digestion on one side. But on the other side, though, if you’re trying to have more of a repopulation recalculation effect, I recommend it empty stomach, but some people see an improvement with digestion taking fermented foods. probiotics with it. That’s why some people they feel really good having their kombucha after their meal. They just feel like oh I feel really good on my digestion side that’s because of the acidity and and some of the, the various acids that are in become which can really help stimulate digestive acids I think especially if it’s ginger then you have some bitters in there that can stimulate more digestive juices as well. So I think that’s a component but I typically default to an empty stomach. Your thoughts?

Evan Brand: Yeah, I think I agree. I mean, I think it’s case by case before bed could be good too. Like if your guts really irritated and it’s affecting your sleep. I’ve had some people with IBS where they’re up in the middle of the night with cramping and such. You know, we’ll do like some of my gi sooth to which is an aloe extract. We’ll do that with probiotics before bed and people report Hey, I slept through the night because I was in less pain with my gut. So

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, some patients that really have a hard time with probiotics. As we introduce them back in on an empty stomach. I’ll start with a little bit with the food. Just as a as a way to start getting an egg. Sometimes they can tolerate with food, but not quite. on an empty stomach, so I’ll kind of inch in that way too. So it just depends, like you said, case by case basis.

Evan Brand: Yeah, yeah, it’s hard, right? We’re trying to take 1000 different ways that it’s happened before and distill it into one podcast to refer to it’s like, well, tricky. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. Anything else you want to highlight today? I mean, we’ve been going pretty good for a while we’re on a good clip here. Anything else you want to highlight?

Evan Brand: Just one one real quick study here. That was regarding anxiety and bacteria. There’s many studies out there if you just type in probiotic anxiety in PubMed, you can look at it but there was a mental health center in Shanghai. And they reviewed 21 studies that looked at 1500 people. Long story short, the probiotics versus the placebo group, the anxiety in these people was significantly reduced. So like the we know, the ram gnosis in particular is very beneficial, but there’s others as well. So, depression, same thing. You You could find studies on bipolar and depression and all sorts of mood issues and DHA. You and I talked about this, but we’ll say it again before we wrap up. A lot of the neurotransmitters a lot of the brain chemistry is happening first in the gut. So serotonins happening in the gut, the gut bacteria are producing toxins affecting neurotransmitters. So you’ve got to fix the gut to fix the brain in many, many cases with mental health. So if you’re depressed, if you’re anxious, if you’re angry, if you’re irritable, consider the gut.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. Excellent. Excellent, excellent. Well, let’s wrap it up here today was a really great chat if you guys enjoy it, put your comments down below. Let us know your experience with probiotics beneficial bacteria, let us know the good and bad and kind of what’s giving you all the best results and if you guys want to dive in you can work with Evan,, you will meet Dr. J at and we are available worldwide to help patients out during this time. So feel free and reach out and we’ll put probiotics linked down below so you can see the actual ones that we recommend and if you want to support us, we always appreciate it. We’re trying to provide the highest quality products that we can do anything else, Evan.

Evan Brand: That’s it. Have a great day. Take care. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Take care y’all. Bye now.


Audio Podcast:


Holistic Farming, Improving the Food Chain, Your Immune System Starts with Good Food – Joel Salatin | Podcast #290

For today’s podcast, Dr. J has got a treat for you! Joel Salatin, American farmer, lecturer, author, and owner of Polyface Farm. He is one of the most famous farmers with his successful, unconventional techniques (agricultural methods used at Polyface are “beyond organic”).

Dr. J is talking us through the food journey and how a strong immune system starts with our food. We open with segregation vs. integration in conventional vs. unconventional farming. The benefits are obvious, and Salatin chooses not to mass produce to maintain a holistic and environmentally friendly business model. We shift into a discussion about quality and nutrient density of foods. We look at how some recent studies, documentaries, and food movements sweep over the fact that organic grass-fed meat is of a far superior quality to fast food meat. The quality of mass produced meats, fast food “meats”, and organic grass-fed meats are all different, and Dr. J and Joel acknowledge and elaborate on this. Much is covered during this podcast, but stay until the end to learn how our food-spending habits are changing with the times. While we used to spend 18% of our income on food and less on health, now it is the opposite. Dr. J sees this need to spend more on health in direct correlation with the quality and nutrient density of today’s foods. Spend more money on good quality food that is high in nutrients and you’ll spend less on hospital bills, etc.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

00:00 Intro to holistic farming

07:01 Junk food epidemic

19:47 Food processing plants

26:16 Politics of food

31:10 Nutrient-dense food

37:00 Plant protein vs animal protein, bacteria, biomass and the climate

44:24 Food labels and grading system


Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And we are live! It’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani here in the house with Joel Salatin, who is one of the most famous farmers out there who runs Polyface Farms, an organic natural farming association.  We’re gonna talk about all things farming, health, immune system.  Let’s dive in.  Joel, how are you doin’ today?

Joel Salatin:  I’m doing great and it’s an honor to be with you, Dr. J.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, thank you so much.  So, I first came upon you, how long has it—maybe 10 years ago now?  In the documentary, Food Inc?  Has it been 10 years?

Joel Salatin:  Yes, it has been 10 years.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow! I remember that movie.  There was a couple of things.  It really kinda juxtaposed conventional farming methods.  You bring in the cows then you bring in all the corn and then you have to move everything out.  Get the corn you know—get all the cow patties out because of all the toxins that happen in it and then you see this wonderful juxtaposition where you have these cows, you move them throughout the pasture.  You bring in the chicken to eat the remains of the stool they bring.  You have this beautiful synergy in your farming and it was like this complete circle where the conventional system was just so, let’s just say, it lacked that holistic nature.  Can you just kinda juxtapose, you know, the farming on the conventional side this with the more holistic farming just so the average person—

Joel Salatin:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s stepping into this, understands the difference?

Joel Salatin:  Sure!  Well, you’ve laid it out very well.  One of the big differences is segregation versus integration.  I mean—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  In the industrial system, the animals are segregated from their environment, from their feedstocks.  They’re cooped up in a house.  They breathe in their own fecal particulate all day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Correct.

Joel Salatin:  Their waste goes into whatever lagoons.  I mean, if North Carolina didn’t get a hurricane every 2 years, the whole state would be full like a toilet tank right now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Joel Salatin:  You know, from all the clogged lagoons.  Where—and then it goes to, you know, to wherever the food gets, to wherever it goes, into a great huge processing plant that’s also segregated with razor wire and no trespassing zones from its own community.  Whereas in our system, it’s a highly decentralized system, a highly integrated system where the environments of open land, forest land, and water integrate closely.  Wildlife is not considered a liability.  Wildlife is considered an asset.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Correct.

Joel Salatin:  Pollinators are encouraged and so the animals are each in a habitat that allows it to express its phenotypical distinctiveness.  We call it the pigness of the pig, the chickeness of the chicken, ah so that they can fully express their, you know, yeah, their physiological uniqueness.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Totally makes sense.

Joel Salatin:  The animals are moved from paddock to paddock.  The chickens come behind the cows.  The cows eat grass.  I mean, they are herbivores so they don’t grain and they certainly don’t eat dead chickens and chicken manure like the industry feeds them and the manure fertilizes the pasture like the bison did that built the great soils of, you know, America and then we process locally and we, you know, we feed our foodshed and so everything is this circle.  I mean, even our composting, we build compost with pigs.  So instead of using—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  Great big machines, you know, to turn these piles, we actually just put some corn in it, turn in the pigs and the pigs aerate it and stir it like a big egg beater and of course, the pigs love to do this.  We are not asking them to do something they don’t like to do.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%, I like it and I’m not an educated farmer but I could just see the holistic in this and the synergy and it just made sense.  Now obviously, there’s business and, you know, the whole market type of feeds, this conventional type of way of living or producing animals in a conventional way, is it possible to still make money as a farmer and produce food holistically like this or is the profit mode of just really, really change the direction in how farming is moving?

Joel Salatin:  Well, absolutely.  It’s possible to make a living this way.  That’s what we do.  We’re not a non-profit.  We are a for-profit outfit and now, that said, it’s important to realize that much of the food sold in the supermarket is not honestly—the cost of that is not honestly gathered.  I mean, the fact that we have a dead zone the size of Rhode Island and the Gulf of Mexico, that is a direct external cost of industrial agriculture or the fact that half of all cases of diarrhea in the United States come from foodborne pathogens.  You know, what’s the case of diarrhea worth?  I don’t know what it’s worth but it’s not very fun and so we have all these additional costs that are not captured in the supermarket price and so we say, we’re the cheapest food on the planet because we are not polluting anybody.  We’re not, you know, we’re not polluting anybody’s, you know, backyard barbecue with a stinky air and we’re not giving anybody a case of diarrhea and we’re not giving anybody MRSA and C. diff with subtherapeutic antibiotic use.  So there’s—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I just wanna interject real quick.  You said, “A dead zone in Mexico or the Gulf of Mexico?”  Can you elaborate a little more on that?

Joel Salatin:  Yeah, well the Gulf of Mexico, of course, is the ocean and the right now, in the Gulf of Mexico there’s a dead zone which is a toxic—where there’s no oxygen and nothing grows and it’s the size of Rhode Island right now and all those trip fishermen—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:  Fisherman that made a living in that large area, there’s no longer anything produced there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, wow.  I didn’t know that.

Joel Salatin:  Yeah.  So I mean, it’s big.  I mean, it’s the biggest dead zone on the planet right now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Interesting.

Joel Salatin:  And not mention the many that are just, you know, internal but no, that’s a direct result of industrial, chemical and you know, run-off down the Mississippi.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, I see.  So it’s caused by the pesticide run-off and it’s creating a dead zone where just life can’t happen because of all—

Joel Salatin:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The toxic soup that’s happening there essentially.

Joel Salatin:  That’s right.  That’s right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, very interesting.

Joel Salatin:  That’s right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you have really touched on it too much, I’ll dive into, I wanna get thoughts on it is there is an inequality in regards to junk food being cheap partly because of a lot of the government subsidy, right? 20 billion dollars or so for wheat and soy, so when you throw that on, it’s gonna make these foods artificially sweet so when you see the Dollar Menu for instance, it’s really not a dollar, it’s probably orders of magnitude above that.  Can you talk about the junk food epidemic with high fructose, corn syrup, soy, all these refined processed foods and how they’re artificially cheap?

Joel Salatin:  Well, sure.  I mean, the entire whatever farm program, USDA program, is dedicated toward subsidizing, concessionizing A) not only a large-scale enterprises to the exclusion of small-scale enterprises.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  And you know, amalgamation and centralization and all that, but also to certain products, certain crops.  There’s only 6 crops that get subsidies.  Now they call insurance because subsidies have become you know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:   Too politically incorrect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Too politically, yeah, exactly.

Joel Salatin:  So now they call insurance.  But there’s only 6 products that have that you know, corn, soybeans, wheat and rice.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Granola?

Joel Salatin:  Uh, not granola.  Cotton.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cotton.

Joel Salatin:  And the other one is sugarcane.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  Sugarcane.  So those are the 6 crops that are officially in that, you know that, kind of—well, the old subsidy program now the new insurance program, and so anytime you have incentives for just 6 commodities, guess what?  You’re gonna get a skewed cost structure and an inordinate amount of production in those particular commodities and so that’s exactly what’s happened.  And of course, you know, when you talk about junk food, you gotta realize that junk food is not necessarily less expensive than nutritious food.  I mean, a Snickers bar, the price per pound of a Snickers bar is more than the price per pound of our, you know, grass-finished beef for example.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think I heard you once say this, I mean, you can correct me if I’m wrong.  I think you were talking about your organic eggs versus the conventional eggs and you’re like, “Hey, yeah. This is the twice the amount of cost but do you know that the amount of folate in here is 20 times more.”  Can you talk about the nutrient density?  And is that about correct?  Is that number about correct?  From the quote from before?  In regards to the folate and eggs?

Joel Salatin:  Yeah, so we participated with Mother Earth News Magazine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:  In a study back, oh I don’t know, 5 or 6 years ago.  They got tired of people—of being whatever panned and excoriated for saying that there was a difference from carrot to carrot, egg to egg, you know, pork chop to pork chop and so they said, “Well, let’s do it.  Let’s take, you know, pastured eggs.  Let’s find some farmers and settle this dispute.”  And so they got 12 of us and we send them to a lab and they measured it for 12 nutrients.  One of them was folic acid and the official USDA, you know, nutrient label for eggs is like 48 mcg per egg of folic acid and our eggs averaged 1,038 mcg per egg.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  No, I mean, yeah, so your magnitude of 20—this isn’t a 5% difference, a 10%.  This is like, you know, magnitudes.  The same thing is true with like grass-finished beef compared to corn-finished beef.  For example, riboflavin.  Riboflavin is especially—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  B2.

Joel Salatin:  You know, yeah, and it was like 300% higher.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  And, and so you know, these products.  When you talk about a salad bar, you know, being able to exercise and fresh air, and sunshine and/or grass in a salad bar where they’re moved every day to a new spot and you get this fresh salad.  The keratins in that salad completely changed the fatty acid, the nutritional profile—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.

Joel Salatin:  Structure of the, you know, of the meat, poultry, egg.  You know, whatever it is on the protein.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And this primarily just has to do with the fact that the cows are eating a natural diet.  They’re getting lots of greens and then of course, the greens aren’t gonna be laden with GMOs and pesticides and then you’re cycling that through, and then you’re providing the synergy in with the chickens that eat the fecal debris afterwards, which then re-fertilized, and then it just creates this healthier microbiome.  Healthier microbiome in the soil.  Healthy soil microbiome creates more nutrients in the grass and then the circle just continues.  Does that—

Joel Salatin:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Sound about right?

Joel Salatin:  Right.  Yeah, you’re in the ballpark.  Essentially, the diversity in our microbiome can only be as diverse as the diversity that we’re feeding it in our food and that can only be as diverse as the soil food web in the soil.  I mean, every like tablespoon of soil has more beings in it—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  Than there are people on the face of the Earth.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.

Joel Salatin:  And so if we—so if we reduce half of the soil bacteria, you know, with chemicals and make it simplistic and then we only do mono speciation of plants and animals growing on that soil, and then we send that into a sterile processing facility and what comes out as sterile, there’s not much there to feed our microbiome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.

Joel Salatin:  And so, you know, when I go pick a carrot out in the garden, I don’t even wash it off.  I rub it off on my pants and get a little bit of that dirt.  You know, I can always imagine these dirt like the acetobacter and mycorrhizae.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  They come in and they go down and I swallow them and they hit their destined cousins down in my gut, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:  Like, “Oh, hello, cousin.  Where have you been?”  Yeah, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:  And they have this family reunion of microorganisms, you know?  I can just–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That makes so much sense.

Joel Salatin:  Going on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That makes sense.  Are there any bigger companies like Tyson or any of these bigger farming companies that are trying to do what you’re doing on a larger scale?  Obviously, they’re doing it because they feel like they can be more efficient in how much product they produce.  You know, we can argue about the quality aspect as you already just did with the nutritional density on the carrots, on the eggs, and I imagine that goes with the grass-fed meat.

Joel Salatin:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And the vitamin B2.  So there’s a nutritional density component that they are not measuring because I think they get paid by the pound, not by the nutrient, right?

Joel Salatin:  That’s right.  Nobody in the indust—nobody in the food system gets paid for nutrients right now.  Now that may change.  I mean, there’s some cool technology coming out with little handheld spectrophotometers.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  You know, which is Abby’s machine on NCIS, you know?  The mass spec that she’s always got.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:   Yup.

Joel Salatin:  And so there’s some interesting technology especially now in produce where we’re trying to measure, you know, wavelengths.  So there’s some cool stuff coming but yeah, you’re right.  In the food system, nobody really gets paid for nutrition.  They get paid for pounds and bushels and of course, that is not a measure of—that’s not a measure of quality.  It’s a measure of quantity but it is not a measure of quality.  It would be like measuring the effectiveness of a college by the number of diplomas it produced rather than the quality of jobs that graduates got.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it.  Great analogy.  So essentially, we have a system that is really good at getting animals fat and big, which then they get paid more because of the weight versus healthy and nutrient-dense—

Joel Salatin:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Which then provides more health to the consumers and I just—I tell my patients when they’re going out shopping, you really have to change your mindset when you’re shopping.  You have to say, “Hey, how can I get the best price?  No, “ How can I get the most nutrients for my dollar?”  And when you do that, the organic higher quality, more local foods will always give you more nutrients per dollar versus more bulk per dollar.

Joel Salatin:  Right. For example, in beef production, a lot of people are familiar with ionophore either implants or supplements in like a mineral box.  Well, these ionophores are basically steroids.  They don’t actually increase mass.  They increase the cell’s ability to hold more water and so you get more weight but you don’t get more nutrition.  I mean—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ahh.

Joel Salatin:  The poultry industry right now, I think Tyson sells something like a billion dollars a year worth of water because they put chickens in chill tanks and agitate them so the birds take on water and the industry—like 10% of the weight of a bird in a supermarket is water.  And so there’s all sorts of little tricks and techniques to try to, you know, abscond a few more pennies for nothing out of the supermarket which is why we promote actually just circumventing the industrial food chain.  Whether it’s a Farmer’s Market, an on-farm store, a farm that ships to you, you know, directly to your doorstep.  I mean, there are now all sorts of alternatives to the mainline orthodox food system and all of those offers, in general, you know, better alternatives than you can find down at Costco and Walmart.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:   Where the only way to get into those places—several years ago I had a bunch of—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Joel Salatin:  Costco vice-presidents here and we—they spent the day.  They were excited about what we were doing and they asked me then at the end.  They said, “So how we get your stuff in at, you know, Sam’s Club and Costco?”  I said, “Well, the first thing you have to do is let a truck smaller than tractor-trailer back up to your dock.”  That was the end of the discussion.  They could not even—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  There wasn’t enough scale.

Joel Salatin:  No, they couldn’t imagine a system where a truck smaller than a tractor-trailer back up to their dock.  So, you know, this was the kind of—it’s a prejudice within the marketplace that excludes, you know, positive alternatives.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.  Essentially, they’re looking for more scale and this is more of a decentralized way of doing it just because of, you know, it’s the big companies are kinda wetted to this conventional system because it’s all a weight-driven system not a nutrient-system so you kinda have to change how the system for it to make sense on the financial side to grow.  I mean, is it possible like if you had more money right now if someone gave you a hundred million dollars, could you scale this thing to the size of a Tyson, while producing the same food quality?

Joel Salatin:  Sure.  So what a great question and you know, our most questions and criticism is price and scale.  You know, can you actually feed the world this way and so the way I envision it is to explain to people absolutely this scale, in fact it scales just fine but it doesn’t scale like an aircraft carrier, it scales like a million speedboats.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:  And so we believe in scale not by taking something—not by taking a stationary piece of infrastructure and turning it into a mega, you know, infrastructure but rather a whole lot of decentralized, democratized—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  Infrastructure all over the landscape so that instead of 150 mega-processing facilities worth 3,000 employees, the country has maybe, you know, 50,000 smaller scale abattoirs or canning plants or processing facilities scattered all over the landscape devoted to their own food, you know, their regional foodsheds.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  And so one is scaled by duplication, the other is scaled by whatever, you know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Subsidy or?

Joel Salatin:  Empire building.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The Empire Building.

Joel Salatin:  Build a bigger coliseum instead of building a whole bunch of little theatres.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.  Now that makes sense.  There’s a quote by John Paul Getty, “You’re better off getting 1% out of 100 men than 100% out of 1 man”, right?

Joel Salatin:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So it’s kinda like that?  And it’s probably safer for our food supply.  I mean, you can go read—you read stories of Russia before the revolution where all the starvation and stuff would happen and you know, because you had one farm controlled by the government and then that went sideways, and everyone starved, right?

Joel Salatin:  Sure, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So it makes sense from a safety standpoint for sure.  Let’s talk about food processing plants right now.  There’s a lot of hoopla where things were closed off because of the COVID-19 thing and then they had this big supply chain that was moving and they had to kill animals off because that supply chain couldn’t move and the supply chain was so tight in how they brought animals in, fed them, brought them to slaughter.  If they couldn’t slaughter them on time, the whole thing got backed up and they had to kill them.  So you have this supply chain backup.  You have the whole food processing plant owned by a lot of companies outside of the country that are—it seems like they’re selectively choosing food from outside of the country versus inside the country.  Can you talk a little bit about those politics?

Joel Salatin:  Sure.  So the idea there is that these processing plants, remember half, almost half of the US processing plant capacity right now is owned by China and Brazil.  They’re owned by foreigners.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:  So, you know, these companies are above whatever national politics.  You know, they’re global in scope and loyalty.  They have no loyalty, you know, to a culture, to a country, to a place.  And so what happened was in these big plants, as the coronavirus came in, they started—they were unable to continue to operate.  They had a lot of workers get sick.  You gotta remember that right now, the only place in America where thousands of people are working shoulder to shoulder every day in wet, damp, cool, damp conditions is in these large-scale processing plants.  It’s not happening anywhere else.  And a lot of these workers are themselves living in difficult conditions.  They come from Somalia.  They come from, you know, all over the world and I’m not being xenophobic.  This is just a fact.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  Most of these workers are foreign workers.  They’re trying to save pennies to bring, you know, additional family members home.  So they’re crammed, you know, 10 people in a house that we would consider only big enough for 4 people.  They crammed 10 and 20 people in these houses and they’re scrimping pennies so they’re eating, you know, they’re eating out of the gas station and they’re eating SPAM, you know, to eat cheaply.  So the living conditions, they’re in a new culture, they’re under the stress of a new language, I mean, there’s a lot of stress in their life and stress of course, you know, reduces your cortisol, okay?  And so, then you become more susceptible.  My point is that these huge plants are incubators for sickness.  Whether it’s COVID or anything else and so when you have a very small plant, a community plant like we co-own one that has 20 employees.  It’s a small community plant and we—you know, we have 20 people and we’re spread out a lot more because, well, it’s small, you know?  And there are 2 guys over on the kill ford, 2 guys in the back pack machine, 4 guys in the cut room and they have a lot of room.  It’s just not shoulder-to-shoulder like these great, great, big plants that are basically assembly line.  We do stuff by hand with individual knives and individual workstations and there’s a lot of room and there’s not that many people and we’re hiring neighbors and so it’s better working conditions.  And so, the fact is, that the small decentralized plants are simply less vulnerable to pathogenicity of any type.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  Of any type whether it’s on the food or in the people.  They’re just less vulnerable to pathogenicity than the great big plants.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, 100% and I remember in Food Inc that you were slaughtering a chicken outside in the open air with the UV light coming through and, you know, we’ve seen data that a lot of these coronaviruses cannot really survive more than 1 minute in 75°F temperature, 40% humidity so it seems like the sunlight or the UVC rays are really powerful natural disinfectant that you’re utilizing to help keep your food clean.

Joel Salatin:  Yes, absolutely.  And so a small plant, you know, has more windows.  You know, workers can step outside for you know, for lunch or a break.  I mean, there’s just a lot of additional, whatever, resilience in a small facility.  So that was one of the big glitches in the food chain system.  The other big glitch that happened was that when the restaurants were closed down, the food industry has 2 very distinct, whatever, journeys of food.  It either goes into wholesale and you know, and restaurant trade or it goes into the retail trade.  And as you can imagine, those 2 trajectories are completely different kinds of packaging, completely different kinds of distribution, everything.  And so what happened when the restaurants closed down, everybody started buying retail, while the industry couldn’t adjust their packaging and their, whatever, their fabrication lines—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  Fast enough to adjust.  I mean, we even had it at our farm.  At our farm, we never ran out of ground beef.  We ran out of ground beef for 3 days.  People were going, you know, going ballistic.  We don’t have ground beef.  We had 5,000 pounds of 5-lb packages of ground beef for our restaurants but that was not for the ret—you know, our retailer customers didn’t want 5-lb, you know, 5-lb packages of ground beef.  They want 1-lb packages of ground beef.  And so—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  And so our retail customers saw us being “out” but we had plenty.  It was just in bigger packages for restaurants.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.  That’s—

Joel Salatin:  You know, so we encouraged people, we said, “Look, here’s how you can do it.  You can take this all home, cook it, and then what you don’t eat, freeze it, and you can use it another time.  Or you can take a hacksaw, you know, whack in quarters, you know and move.”  So we were doing all sorts of creative things with our customers trying to get them to understand the meat is here, you just might have to help us and you know, meet this glitch here for a little bit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  No, that makes a lot of sense.  And just from a national security standpoint, you know, it doesn’t make sense allowing foreign people to own so much of our food supply.  I mean, the gateway of our food supply being these food packaging plants.  It just doesn’t make sense that they would—that such a large percent of them are owned by international companies.  That is so mind-blowing!

Joel Salatin:  Well, it is and you know, you can really see it right now in the last I think I’m right on this, in the last like 30 years, the US has gone from one—from roughly 1% to 5% of our food being imported to today, it’s 20%.  In other words, 1 out of 5 mouthfuls of food that an American takes is now coming from a foreign place.  We are becoming more and more vulnerable to these kinds of shocks within in the system.  Of course, you know, during this time, China for the year leading up to the coronavirus, for that year, China depopulated half of their pork industry.  You know, China consumes half of the world’s pork. Just the country of China consumes—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  Half of the world’s pork and in China, pork is the number one, you know, animal protein.  In America, it’s chicken.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.  It makes sense.

Joel Salatin:  Chicken, but in China it’s pork.  So when the African swine fever came into China and by the way, it decimated the large producers more than the small ones, but when it came into China they began depopulating and so China was entering this whole COVID-19 thing short of pork, and so here we were with empty store shelves and Smithfield, which is owned by the Chinese, were sending 20% of our pork to China to help meet the African swine fever shortfall in China—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  While our grocery shelves were empty.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow, this is unbelievable and the politics of food I think are really important because it just—you gotta have common sense with a lot of these things.  And when you have a lot of these international companies running these food processing plants, they are selecting for their fellow international probably subsidiaries I imagine, so then they’re picking meat from these international companies and bringing it here and then leaving our domestic farmers in the hole, kinda empty-handed, with all these extra supply and they are just being given money for the—by the government to sit on it essentially, right?

Joel Salatin:  Yeah, well, I don’t know how much the subsidies, you know, go into those big outfits.  I can tell you that probably the single, you know, when you talk about the politics of food, probably the single biggest issue here is that it is not necessarily money if you will, but it’s regulatory where it’s very, very difficult for a small, you know, community abattoir to get in the business because of very scale prejudicial—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:  Scale prejudicial requirements.  That’s one reason why Congressman Tom Massie from Kentucky—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.  Kentucky, yeah.

Joel Salatin:  Has put in the prime act to try to allow the intrastate, not interstate, but intrastate sale of custom processed beef and pork and so that a lot of these little community abattoirs can actually join the marketplace and aren’t excluded from the marketplace.  The cost of getting into this is extremely expensive in its primary regulations.  You know, you can go out and shoot a deer on a 70-degree day and feed it to your kids and give it to all the neighborhood and you’re a great American, but if you do one pig on an appropriate temperature day, you’re a criminal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  And so this is not about food safety, it’s about market access.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.  There’s some common sense or form that could be done, I mean, if I was the agricultural czar and I could do a couple of different things right now policy-wise to just improve the health of this country, I think number one, I would get rid of all farming subsidies.  Because I think number one is you have to show people, the Americans, what the true cost of food in your junk food is, number one.  Number two, I would adjust a lot of the food stamps/SNAP program.  People that need food, I think you give them a stipend to actually get the real food from their local farmer so you actually get the real food and you can’t spend it on junk food and crap and sugar, and anything else because I think if people need assistance, the worse thing we can do is give them crappy food and then they end up being on more drugs and—

Joel Salatin:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And they are drained on the healthcare system because then you pay twice and you know, chronic healthcare is actually probably more like 10x, right?  So I’d start with those first 2 things if I were to do anything just to let the free market, and then I probably would do more on the education side because I think people need to be educated about nutrients, not just how much their food weighs.  I think it’s about value.  People look at their food and they don’t have the value component.  They just kinda look at it as, “Okay, it’s you know, this chicken is the same as that chicken,” and they don’t have the value component and that takes education to people like you and people like me.

Joel Salatin:  Right.  Well, I’m with you.  I’ll vote for you.  When you run, I’ll vote for you.  But yes, I agree with all those things and in fact, one of the best ways to educate people is to actually put good food in their mouth.  Most Americans have never actually eaten what we call nutrient-dense authentic food.  I mean, this coronavirus has brought some interesting people into our farm store.  A guy came in last week and you know, he had never shopped anywhere except Walmart and so he, you know, with all this coronavirus stuff, he came to us and he got a couple of, you know, 5 chickens or something and said it would take them a month.  He called back the next week and he said, “I’ve never had anything like that.  We ate them all in a week.”  And what it was, it was his body telling him this is real nutrition, you need to eat this.  Just like—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  A little anemic 6-year-old came in with his mother.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  You know, this is little itty-bitty little child.  Mother said, “Oh, he’s such a picky eater.  He won’t eat anything.”  She bought a dozen eggs.  She called us the next day and she said, “He’s eating 6 eggs in a sitting.”  Well, the child he was eating, but he was starving to death.  He was starving nutritionally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  And so when he got really decent nutrition, his body, you know, whatever, it woke up.  You know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:  That’s a better wokeness than the politically correct wokeness.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.  No, that makes sense.  That makes a lot of sense.  Yeah, when your body has the nutrients it needs, its metabolic systems run better and yeah, they literally will generate more energy which helps with the energy and focus and mood and everything.  Now I’m just curious to get your take.  I mean, I’d lecture my patient on whole food and how animal nutrients—animal bioaccumulate plant nutrients.  So when you have the vegan-vegetarian argument versus being able to eat whole food, healthy animal products, number one, the argument tends to—it tends to create a straw man.  The first argument is it tends to create all meat as conventional junk food McDonald’s meat and I think we have to be able to differentiate that.  I don’t talk about the organic broccoli in someone’s backyard and compare it to the soybeans on a monoculture farm.  So we have to be able to differentiate the quality of the meat, number one.  And then number two, we have to look at the nutrient density like you mentioned.  I know animals bioaccumulate plant matter.  I think it’s something like 8 lb of grass goes into 1 lb of cow meat.  So there’s bioaccumulation and when you look at the nutrient density studies comparing a carrot to liver or beef, or your egg yolks to any type of plant, you’re gonna see this increased nutrient density. Can you—what’s your argument on the plant-based nutrition side or the more the plant and animal-based side especially the animal side?

Joel Salatin:  Yeah.  Well, you’re exactly right.  You’re exactly right.  The problem is that with things like, you know, Cowspiracy and Game Changer.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Joel Salatin:  They refuse to differentiate that there can be a better way to raise a chicken or a cow—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Joel Salatin:  Than a poor way to raise a chicken or a cow.  I’m liking it to this.  It’s as if you and I, let’s say we live on Pluto.  We’re looking down at the Earth and Pluto says, “Hey, that’s an interesting-looking planet down there.  I wonder what their education system is.  How about we get 2 volunteers to do down there and check it out?”  So you and I volunteer, we jump in the flying saucer and we come down to Earth, and we happen to land in the schoolyard of the worst school district with the worst superintendent—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  In a school with the worst principal and we go visit the worst classroom with the worst teacher.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  Worst parents in the whole country.  And we watched this for 2 days.  We go back to Pluto and they say, “Well, what did you find?”  We’ll say, “Man, if education is like that, we shouldn’t have any education.”  You know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.

Joel Salatin:  And that—so when you—when all of your data points are from a dysfunctional system, you’re gonna come up with a dysfunctional conclusion and that is what has driven the data points, the science, the data points of you know, Cowspiracy, the UN Long Shadow report, the EAT-Lancet report, all these, you know, anti-animal, anti-meat things are—they don’t come here to do their data collection.  You know, they go to feedlots, they go to factory farms, they go to, you know, desert irrigation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:  And it’s all those systems rather than a truly holistic functional synergistic type system.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, anytime someone makes an effort to create that straw man and not let—and not really argue against the premises that you’re making, that’s sophistry right there at its best.  I mean, we see it all with a lot of the people talking about climate change and the methane produced by cows.  Well, okay, you know, well, let’s talk about the fact that methane is significantly reduced if not totally neutral with cows that eat grass.  And so, you know, we’re just supporting now an argument of cows eating more grass and keeping the grains and the corn and all that crap out of there.  But the argument still—the goal post constantly gets shifted in the plant versus animal argument and I think it’s a combination of the two but we gotta acknowledge there’s a different way to raise these animals in a healthy fashion and the results totally change.  And we’re not even talking about the bioavailability of plant—

Joel Salatin:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Proteins versus animal protein.

Joel Salatin:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s a totally different argument.  The assumption is that all plant proteins are absorbed and assimilated the same way and the anti-nutrients aren’t affecting any of it and also that the amino acid profile is the same.  We know that animal-based amino acid profiles are gonna be more sulfur-rich and the plant-based profiles are a lot of times are gonna be incomplete and you have to combine different proteins like rice and beans, etc.  Your thoughts?

Joel Salatin:  Yes.  So yeah, exactly so a lot of people have never heard of a bacteria in the soil called methanotrophic bacteria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Joel Salatin:  Methanotrophic bacteria lives in pasture.  It doesn’t live under corn.  It doesn’t live under asphalt.  It doesn’t live in feedlots.  It doesn’t live on factory farms.  It lives under perennial grasslands.  Methanotrophic bacteria in a healthy grassland, there’s enough methanotrophic bacteria.  Methanotrophic is it’s a bacteria that eats methane.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Eats it.  Totally eats it.  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  Yeah, it eats methane and metabolizes it and feeds it back to plants, okay?  And so in a healthy pasture, you know, perennial grass situation, there’s enough methanotrophic bacteria in the soil to eat up all the methane from 2,000 cows per acre.  That’s how constructive and regenerative nature is.  Now, nobody is gonna have 2,000 cows per acre.  The point is that nature has all the mechanisms necessary to make sure there’s no waste stream.  That everything has a place of reconstruction and regeneration that there’s no landfill in nature.  There’s no away.  There’s no waste stream.  Every waste stream is the beginning of something else.  And so that’s—so methanotrophic bacteria—so you don’t hear in Cowspiracy, you don’t hear them talking about methanotrophic bacteria, they just talk about, you know, feed lots and factory farms and things.  And so, you know, it’s important to understand that there’s a lot in the system that they’re not talking about. Even to the point that how much water it takes to make a T-bone steak.  Well, they don’t measure the urine that comes out of the cow or the bacterial exudates of the biomass when healthy biomass exudes bacteria, that’s the number one coalescent for water vapor in the atmosphere.  Water vapor can coalesce around ice particles.  It can coalesce around little pieces of chemical or it can coalesce around bacteria.  90% of it coalesces around bacteria and bacteria just is exhaled by the biomass, trees and grass and shrubs and things.  And so, when a cow stimulates through proper grazing measure, when a cow stimulates biomass production in the forage, it actually comes alive with additional exhale bacteria that allows the clouds to form, rains to come, and stimulates water.  I mean, this is all out of Walter Jehne from Australia, probably the, you know, the world’s foremost, you know, climatologist, climate change guy talking about how atmospheric moisture is the Earth’s radiator and the problem is that none of these climate changers are talking about, how do replenish the radiator of the Earth?  You replenish it with biomass-induced bacteria exhaling from the plants.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Joel Salatin:  And how you do that is with the proper animal pruners around the land and not continuous grazing, not overgrazing, not desertification, but proper animal management to stimulate the abundance of the biomass on the landscape.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Can you just re-say that like in 15 seconds again?  It was a lot—I wanna be able to connect those bullet points because there was so much said there.  Can you just kind of reiterate that just a little bit more succinctly again?

Joel Salatin:  Okay, so moisture in the air, water droplets condense.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  They condense around ice particles.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  They condense around little pieces of chemical, cloud seeding.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  And they condense around bacteria.  They’re favorite one and the one that’s most conducive is the bacteria.  The bacteria comes from the exudates of biomass, green material, vegetation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Joel Salatin:  And so it’s the vegetation that stimulates the condensation that makes the clouds that helps to create functional water, you know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Joel Salatin:  Water cycle, you know, hydraulic cycles in the world.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And is it just vegetation and the vegetation that’s coming from the cow’s actual food that they’re eating in the grass.  Is that where that vegetation’s coming from?

Joel Salatin:  Yes. Because if you don’t prune biomass, then it tends to become stale and dormant and doesn’t—I mean, a grass plant goes into senescence.  You know, in like 60 days, a grass plant goes into senescence.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  So if something doesn’t come along and prune that grass plant, you know, it turns brown and the bioaccumulate—the, you know, the photosynthesis stops.  And so it’s the herbivorous pruner, that’s why the planet has so many herbivores—zebras and elephants and you know, llamas and alpacas and caribou.  The reason for all these herbivores is to keep this vegetation freshened up like pruning an orchard or pruning a vineyard to make it, you know, to make functional.  So the problems associated with domestic livestock and herbivores is not the problem with herbivores, it’s the farmers and ranchers who manage them incorrectly to not allow them to do the job they were supposed to do as freshening up, you know, pruners.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It’s excellent.  It’s such a holistic cycle and everything is affected.  Everything affects everything.

Joel Salatin:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  From the soils to the plants, to the cows to the atmosphere, to the gasses being produced and you know, I always tell my patients, old foods can’t cause new disease and I don’t think we can—I don’t think new farming methods will ever beat the old farming methods that have always been there because it’s just the closer you are to Mother Nature, it seems like that’s the better way to do it.

Joel Salatin:  Well, that’s for sure.  And nature always fills, you know, we believe here at our farm that nature’s default position is fundamentally wellness.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  And whereas in the industry, they consider the fundamentally default position as sickness.  So we’ve gotta make pharmaceuticals and drugs and GMOs and all these things to override nature’s propensity towards sickness.  Whereas we believe nature’s fundamentally well and if it’s not well, my first question is what did I do to mess it up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.

Joel Salatin:  What did I do to override the immunological terrain?  And so we’ve actually—I’ve actually co-authored a book with Dr. Sina McCullough, it just came out 2 weeks ago.  It’s, the title is Beyond Labels and it’s all about going beyond, you know, beyond just the labels in food and understanding how foods produced from a, you know, a practical standpoint.  How do we make food decisions, proper food decisions and get beyond just being stuck on, you know, paleo, keto, organic, whatever it is, but you know, and labels of sickness?  You know?  I have this.  I have that.  But just going all the way beyond labels in life and I would encourage folks to, you know, to see it and it’s written like a dialog from a farmer and a PhD.  So it’s—and you know, it’s—so it moves, when you get tired of me, you get her.  When you get tired of her, you get me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I love it.  That makes so much sense.  That’s great.  And on the conventional side, you see grades like select or choice or prime, right?  How does that correlate to your meat?  Like where does your meat kinda plug in to that typical grading system?  Obviously, that grading system does not—I don’t think look at the hormones, the antibiotics, the grass-fed or grass-finish nature of that.  Can you talk about that grading system and compare it to kinda where yours plugs in?

Joel Salatin:  Sure.  So that grading system was started in the early 1900s when everybody was using candles, you know, tallow for candles and so the grading system was developed so that the fat content could be measured because cattle received way, way more value if they had enough tallow to make candles.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hmm.

Joel Salatin:  This was before electricity.  And so the select choice in prime—that whole grading system has nothing to do with nutrition, it has nothing to do with taste, it was nothing to do with eating quality.  It’s strictly a measure of fat percentage in the animal based on—well, okay, so now we got enough fat to you know, boil down to make candles to light our houses.  That’s how archaic it is and yet it—this is what happens with government programs.  As you know, government programs they start and even when they are, you know, a century out of date, we got electricity, they still keep them functioning.  You know, one of the things with eggs for example.  You know, you get a carton of eggs, it says Grade A, Grade A large eggs.  I’m having trouble with my bud here.  It keeps falling out.  You know, when you get a carton of eggs, it says Grade A large eggs.  So what does it mean?  It has nothing to do with nutrition.  It only has to do–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Joel Salatin:  With appearance and the size of the air cell and the viscosity of the albumin.  It doesn’t have anything to do with—but people, they see this, you know, stamp of Grade A or whatever on an egg and they think somebody has checked it for Salmonella or Campylobacter or something.  But nobody has checked them for any of that.  It’s strictly an aesthetic grade in the market so that we don’t get crinkly and extra-long or extra fat or whatever you know, eggs in the marketplace.  And so, this is one of the big—this is one of the reasons—this is what Sina and I are bringing out in our book, Beyond Labels, is some of this background stuff, people look at these labels and they assume it means all this.  I mean, like if somebody is checking all these unpronounceable things.  Doesn’t the FDA check monosodium glutamate?  No!  It’s generally regarded as safe.  GRAS.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  And GMOs.  Who’s checking GMOs?  Nobody.  They’re considered equivalent to non-GMOs, GRAS.  Generally regarded I think it is—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  Generally regarded as safe.  You know more about that than I do.  But generally regarded, GRAS.  And so there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of unnatural fake compounds in our food that if they get GRAS designation, nobody checks them.  Any company can add them to food without any check whatsoever.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and there’s no real safety studies behind it or anything which is kinda sad.

Joel Salatin:  No.  There’s no safety studies behind it or anything.  And so many of these stamps and inspections and labels, they have nothing to do with nutrition.  None of these labels has anything to do with nutrition.  And I think if you and I could get all the listeners here today to understand that none of the labels has anything to do or measure either A) nutrition or B) pathogenicity, you know, they don’t measure antibiotic residue.  None of this stuff.  That all the things—here’s the thing.  The thing that consumers fear, the things that worry consumers that they would like to know, none of that is on the label.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.  Exactly. The toxicity, the drug residue, the GMOs.

Joel Salatin:  The nutrient density.  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Maybe even mycotoxins.  Exactly.  The nutrient density which is the most important thing and that kinda comes back to one other thing that, you know, I first learned about in the documentary where I first found you, Food Inc was I think it was Michael Pollan was talking about it is that the percent of our income that we spend on food today is about 8% or 9%.  It used to be 15% to 18%.  So we used to prioritize a lot more of our income to food quality and that prioritization has shifted and of course, the disease management and all the drugs that are being taken I think directly correlate with the lack of investment in our food quality and then we end up investing in drugs on the other side to kinda balance out the other end.

Joel Salatin:  Absolutely.  You know, 30 to 40 years ago, the average American spend 18% of their income—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  On food and 9% on healthcare.  Today, we spend 9% on food and 18% on healthcare.  Those numbers have completely inverted in the last 30 to 40 years.  That’s truly profound and in fact, that inversion really accelerated in 1979 when the US—I call it the US-Duh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, USDA.  US-Duh.  Yeah, that’s a good one.

Joel Salatin:  Their first food pyramid, remember the food pyramid?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  And they put Cheerios and Twinkies on the bottom as you know, the most important stuff.  You know, the grains and we can track our diabetes, our, you know, our obesity.  We can track all these things directly to the consumption of the way the USDA had told u to eat.  The fact is, the sobering fact is, if the government had never told Americans how to eat, including hydrogenated vegetable oil and demonizing butter and lard back in—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  You know, if the government had never told Americans how to eat, we would actually be healthier today.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100% and because special interest lobby and they get their piece out of that food pyramid or that my food plate—

Joel Salatin:  Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The recommendations are based off on financial interest, not about what makes us healthy.

Joel Salatin:  Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and it kinda goes back.  I think people need to look at it from this perspective—old foods don’t cause new disease.

Joel Salatin:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And if you kinda go into that kinda model, that gives you the foundation to move forward for sure.

Joel Salatin:  Right and a kind of a corollary to that is that we didn’t get this pandemic because there was a lack of a vaccine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Joel Salatin:  It’s not like a sickness fairy floated over the planet and said, “Let’s see what are they lacking down there? Oh, they’re lacking a vaccine to COVID-19.  So we’re gonna sprinkle some of that down there.”  You know, we didn’t get this because we lacked the vaccine or lacked something.  It’s always a result of some sort of mismanagement or you know, misapplication of things and nature doesn’t like vacuum.  You know?  If you’re not getting enough good bugs, they’re gonna put in some bad bugs.  Nature doesn’t like a vacuum.  So nature’s gonna fill the void with something.  So if you’re eating junk food and if you’re, you know, if you’re drinking Coca-Cola instead of, you know, good water for that matter, nature’s gonna fill that deficiency in your cell structure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100% and also, I saw a study recently, because how vaccines work is, they’re stimulating the TH2 branch of the immune system that makes antibiotics.  I saw a study talking about the TH1 branch of the immune system and how other coronaviruses that we’ve been exposed in the past, our TH1 immune system has kinda been primed so a lot of the high amount of asymptomatic cases, these are people that get the infection, show no symptoms, are infectious maybe for a week but then develop antibodies long term.  A lot of the reason why they were asymptomatic is because they have a TH1 immune response to the virus and the TH1 is like our natural killer cells, right?  This is like in the army, there should be like the Navy Seals or the Delta Team.  These are the first responders to go in first.  Think of the antibodies as the infantry that comes behind alter, so you take a vaccine to increase the infantry but the TH1 immune system which is typically ignored—part of good health, good nutrition is gonna help increase that TH1 immune response and that’s part of the immune system we totally forget about.

Joel Salatin:  Well, absolutely.  You know, that’s so fascinating they way to hear you describe that which is really cool because I was just on a podcast not long ago in person and they tested every guest for coronavirus antibodies.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  And with a blood test and so you know, the doctor came and he pricked my finger and took my, you know, took my blood and it was like a 15-minute test and he said, “Well, you know, you haven’t had it.”  I said, “Well, have I been exposed to it?”  He said, “Well, the antibody test only tests your secondary immune system because if your first—like if your first, like if your skin, if your exterior immune system was good enough, it will never even get into your antibodies.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s the thing.

Joel Salatin:  So he said, “I can’t tell you if you’ve been exposed.  All I can tell you is did it get through your first immune system, not your second immune system.”  He said, “That’s all I can tell you.”  And I thought, my goodness, as much as we can’t even tell that, that’s incredible what we don’t know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%!  We forget about that TH1 immune responses.  There have been studies with people that if they have gammaglobulinemia, meaning they don’t have the ability to make antibodies and if these people have gotten exposed to infections and have been able to fight it off because of the TH1 immune system, which we don’t really have a great way to measure because it’s not like you make a natural killer cell specific for the COVID-19 where you can go test it.  Where antibodies, they’re a specific locking key that you can test for herpes or for chlamydia or for COVID, right?  You can test it.

Joel Salatin:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because there’s a specific shape of it.  You don’t quite have that same, you know, I’m not an immunologist but you don’t quite have that shape recognition on the TH1 immune system where you can go look for it specifically.  So it’s a little bit tough—

Joel Salatin:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  To measure.

Joel Salatin:  Right, yeah.  And you know, and that just shows how trying to reduce everything in life—to reduce everything in life to some sort of empirical hard, whatever, formula, ratio—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  Material is just—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  I mean, this was the problem with the Human Genome Project.  You know, remember when the Human Genome Project launched?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Joel Salatin:  And they said, “This will take, you know, this many years and we know based on mathematical statistics that based on genetic variability, we know there will be a 100,000.”  I remember it like yesterday, “There will be a 100,000 pairs on the DNA strand.”  Well, goodness.  This has to be the only Federal Government-funded project that ever finished at half the budget in half the time.  The reason isn’t because they only found like what 24,000 pairs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Joel Salatin:  I said, “That’s mathematically impossible.”  And that launched the entire new, new sphere of study called Epigenetics, which is how—which is the hanky-panky, the hanky-panky going on up and down the DNA strand.  Nobody knew that before and so it’s amazing how we—as we western empirical, you know, Greco-Roman Western reductionist linear compartmentalized thinkers try to break apart these pieces, life becomes more magnificent, more mysterious, more awesome, more complex, more beautiful than anything we can imagine.  And so why don’t we just—why don’t we just back up and enjoy the beauty?  And let’s drink water instead of Coke and let’s eat, you know, real carrots instead of make-believe carrots and real cows instead of make-believe cows, and let’s just back up and enjoy that nature is way more beautiful and complex than we can ever try to break apart anyway.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Totally.  I think that really just summarizes everything.  Just to kinda piggyback on the whole DNA project.  I remember this.  I was in college at the time and I remember what, 98% to 99% of all DNA they labeled as junk DNA because they didn’t understand it, right?  Junk DNA are these DNAs that are non-encoding, right?  They’re not essentially encoding proteins.  Turning off right? And turning on.  And that’s where I think a lot of the Epigenetics plays into.  They just labeled 98% to 99%–

Joel Salatin:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Of all DNA they didn’t understand that wasn’t encoding things as junk, which is unbelievable.  The hubris in science to just label—

Joel Salatin:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  99% of something junk but I think that’s where a lot of the Epigenetics play in and we know nutrition and sleep and hydration and managing stress—

Joel Salatin:  yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Really control a lot of that DNA that we don’t understand and we just label junk.

Joel Salatin:  Yeah, that’s right.  I mean, it’s similar to black hole in the cosmo—in the cosmic, you know, physics to labeling black hole because somehow when you don’t appreciate the electrical components to the universe that you can’t mathematically justify all this just with gravity and mass and so well, we gotta have a placeholder to make the math work so we’ll call them black holes.  We have never seen one.  We don’t know if they exist but the math doesn’t work and so we humans in our finiteness, you know, we’re always coming to this big thing trying—we try to make the complex too simple and we try to make the too simple to complex.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yep, I 100% agree, Joel.  I think you did a wonderful job summarizing that.  How can listeners support you?  I mean, can they buy your food online?  Do you ship it?  How can they support you?  How can they support other people like you?  What’s that next step?

Joel Salatin:  Okay, so yeah, there’s an entire, you know, network of people like us and yes, and we do ship.  We do ship now.  We started it last year.  We ship nationwide.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Excellent.

Joel Salatin:  So yes, you can call us up and now, I’ll tell you right now we’re struggling to keep up, okay?  But we’re, you know, we’re growing more.  We’re doing some things so we can try to meet the demand because we’re very cognizant that this whole coronavirus thing has stimulated for the first time large-scale cultural discussions around immune function.  And that’s an exciting—that’s the exciting silver lining to this whole cloud is that people for the first time on the street talking about building immune systems.  That’s an exciting thing.  So yes, our website is and you can, you know, you can order food there and you can get information, books, you can see where I’m speaking, of course, most have been canceled but now they’re coming back.  I’m actually gonna be—July 9th I’m gonna be doing 5 presentations.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Joel Salatin:  For, it’s called A Day Up The Creek With A Lunatic Farmer in Orlando, FL at the national—Libertarian Party National Convention in Orlando.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cool.

Joel Salatin:  How about that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s awesome.  Very cool.

Joel Salatin:  Yeah, yeah, so anyway, yeah. is our website and I’ll be glad for anybody to visit that be glad to help anybody that’s trying to get some help.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And also, you’re an author, you have many books.  You have many books as well so I imagine getting some of the books—

Joel Salatin:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Would be very helpful.  I think you had a book you should recommend that kinda dovetail with this topic?

Joel Salatin:  Well, certainly the book by Dr. David Montgomery on—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Joel Salatin:  On soil, that’s, yeah, that’s a powerful, powerful book.  I mean, there are, there’s a new one just coming out.  It’s just been literally just been released by Diana Rogers called Sacred Cow.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.,

Joel Salatin:  In fact, I—it’s so new, I just—she just sent me it.  Yeah, here it is.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it.

Joel Salatin:  Here it is.  Sacred Cow and of course, our new book, Beyond Labels is just out and it’s too far away to reach.  It’s over on the other counter, but yeah, these are all books that really speak to this—you know, the whole message that we just talked about today and will help, you know, dig in a little deeper.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Is there any other ways people can donate or help besides that?  I know there’s like farm to legal defense funds for some of these—

Joel Salatin:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Farmers that are really getting hit hard with some of these lawsuits.  Is that a good method?  Is there a site you recommend for that?  Are there any other ways people can help?

Joel Salatin:  Oh yes, Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund is my number one recommended, you know, kind of charity in this.  What people don’t realize is that as soon as you stepped out of the orthodox seat today, you step into a hearsay and hearsay is not liked by many of the government regulators and I mean, for example, they don’t even like that we love customers to come to our farm.  You know, they think that they’re gonna bring disease.  And so that’s why, you know, all your industrial farms, they have big, you know no trespassing signs and you know, they don’t want people—and so what has happened is we’ve disconnected so much from our food that in the industrial food, when you invest in that meal, it’s like prostitution food.  It’s a one-night stand.  There’s no romance or no—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Joel Salatin:  There’s no understanding of that food and so we want people to come and visit the farm.  See the cows, touch the chickens, you know, pick a cherry off a tree, okay?  And actually have a memory.  There’s actually information that indicates if you sit down for a meal and what you’re eating, if you have a memory—if you have a memory that goes beyond that meal, then it actually helps your digestive enzymes to digest it better if there’s a memory that goes with that food.  And so, you know, we’re all into building those connections of wanting people to do, but Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund is a wonderful organization that’s providing legal help for those of us who dare to question the orthodoxy to hold us by the hand and work us through to either fight in court or to create workarounds so we that don’t have to get a license or comply.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You know, I’m a huge fan.  I donate money to that every single year.  I think it’s great and I just urge people to shift the values of food and don’t look at just price.  Look at the nutrient density when you go to purchase and remember that study that Joel did there, 10x, 10 to 20x on the folate and the pasture-fed organic high-quality eggs versus the conventional.  So you really get a bargain even if you’re spending you know, twice the amount of 10x more.  I’ll take that deal any day.

Joel Salatin:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Awesome, Joel.  Thank you so much.  Is there anything else you wanna leave the listeners with?

Joel Salatin:  No, you’ve been a delight.  We’re, I think we’re two peas in a pod here and I can’t thank you enough for taking this issue and for giving me an additional platform here and just bless you, bless you for what you do.  We need a thousand like you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Thanks so much, Joel.  Really appreciate it.  Love to have you back anytime you have anything else important you wanna share.  Thanks again.


Audio Podcast:

Low Potassium, Adrenal Dysfunction Your Immune System | Podcast #288

For today’s live podcast, Dr. Justin and Evan Brand talk about Potassium and our immune system. Among other minerals, Potassium also acts great especially in our body, energy, mood, blood pressure and a lot more. Let’s dive into why potassium is important for our immune health. Check this podcast’s transcript. Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

2:18 All about Potassium

9:11 Oral Supplementation

18:32 Glucose

20:57 Foods with Potassium

27:11 Vertigo and Dizziness

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey there, it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani, we are doing a live podcast here on potassium and your immune system. Potassium is an essential mineral. And it has major effects on the sodium potassium pump, how your cells function, energy, mood, blood pressure has a huge effect on the adrenal glands. I’m excited to dive in here with Evan Brand, Evan, how you doing today man? doing really well.

Evan Brand: So we were looking at some papers on this thing. And turns out a national survey found that approximately 98% not nine not 8, 98% of Americans are not meeting the recommended potassium intake. A Western diet is to blame as it favors processed foods over a whole plant foods such as fruits, vegetables, beans, and nuts. Everybody knows that the American diet is crap. And it’s not just the American diet. Right? This is the standard European diet. This is the standard Australian diet you know, kind of most developed first world Countries they’re doing too much. Too much potassium devoid food. And let’s tie that directly into what we were also looking at which is this paper this based on the names of these doctors. And yeah, actually it shows it right here. When Zhu Zi Yong ha, Province, China, so yeah, so this is a Chinese hospital and Chinese medical universities to study that came out of hyperkalemia and clinical implications and patients with Coronavirus and long story short people that had potassium deficiencies. They had severe hypokalemia, which is the technical term for potassium deficiency. And it said here that the patients responded well to potassium supplements. And they were inclined to recovery so they don’t say directly Hey, low potassium means you’re going to get the virus or low potassium means you’re going to be really sick, but they just talk about how, because of this whole Ace to enzyme thing that you and I’ve covered many times, and the whole relationship to the virus that one of the side effects of the issue can be low potassium, and if you’re already low potassium to begin with, then you can end up in potentially fatal shape, which is not good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% in potassium is very important because our sodium potassium pump is requires potassium. So what happens is, you have your cell, and then you have sodium inside the cell and you have potassium outside of the cell. And they do a little switcheroo ski, right. This is called the sodium potassium pump. The enzyme that’s involved in making that happen is ATP. And then you know, it’s an enzyme because of the word Ace next to an ATP ace. So ATP is important because ATP is generated from your mitochondria, right? We have glycolysis outside of the cell in the cytoplasm, and then we have our Krebs cycle, right? And we have our electron transport chain within the cell we generate 36 to 38 or so ATP from that that eight TP part of that ATP runs their sodium potassium pumps that ATP takes that sodium that’s in the cell and that potassium outside of the cell, they do a dance, they switch. So it’s three coming out to come in, right? Boom, just like that. And the cell needs that healthy fluid fluidity to work and to communicate. And if we don’t have that healthy fluidity, we’re going to have side effects. So one of the big side effects is we’re going to have muscle or nerve issues because potassium and sodium are very important for the muscles slash nerves to work, right nerves help control muscles, so very, very important there. You’re also going to see it with you’re going to see it with potential mood issues as well because sodium and potassium play an intricate role with the adrenal glands and part of the reason why people’s potassium gets low outside of a poor diet is going to be because of adrenal function. Now, typically with adrenals. Your dosterone starts to go low, which is a mineral corticoid that exists in The cortex to the adrenals. And what happens is as your dosterone starts going low, your sodium can start to drop. And as your sodium drops, sometimes your potassium can look like it’s not too bad, it can look actually a little bit high, but you could still actually have potassium issues because of the fact that you are your adrenals are weak and you’re pulling out a lot of your minerals. So muscle and cramps are going to be a big deal, weakness and fatigue because your nerves need that. Also, if you don’t have good sodium potassium pump issues, you probably have energy issues because the mitochondria healthy mitochondrial function for ATP is needed for that sodium potassium pump to work so potassium works better when there’s the ATP so that whole sodium potassium pump works. We talked about cramping as well because of the the muscles needing the wiring the fluid wiring sodium and potassium and minerals. So cramping is gonna be a big deal. We’re also going to have potentially digestive issues right? your bowel movements and your motility starts to Coming slower when your potassium drops, so we need healthy levels of potassium. So we have good bowel movements. Also heart palpitations, we need potassium and magnesium. So our heart could pump right our hearts a muscle as well. So if your heart skipping beats or beating harder or faster, that’s a sign of palpitations, which could be from that. And also just achy muscles, muscle breakdown, feeling tired and stiff, right? the breakdown of muscle was known as rhabdo. My license or my analysis, right? And that breakdown is going to be very much helped with good potassium levels, right, you’re gonna have less muscle breakdown, with potassium levels being adequate, of course, tingling and numbness issues are going to be a big one difficulty, you know, using your lung muscles mood stuff because of the adrenals as well. I’ll pause and give you a chance to comment.

Evan Brand: I’m glad you mentioned magnesium too, because, uh huh. You and I were kind of looking with a microscope today, right? We’re kind of spot picking right? One thing to talk about, but all these people that are deficient in potassium, I’m sure they’re going to be deficient in magnesium as well. I mean, we know how hard it is to get it from the food, even if it’s organic, because the soil is so depleted. So it’s a really common problem. And then on that whole mood changes, I just wanted to talk about that real quick. There was one study, and this wasn’t a necessarily a causation, but just a correlation study that we were looking at here. 20% of patients with mental disorders that came into this psychiatric ward 20% of them had potassium deficiency. So it’s not saying directly, the potassium deficiency caused the mood issue, there could very well be other things going on you and I’ve covered hundreds of times about gut infections, which could lead to mineral and electrolyte imbalances you hit on the adrenals. So, of course, as we know, when we hear something like that, we say, Okay, well, if you just give these people potassium, are they not going to have mood issues anymore? And the answer is, they could still have mood issues, even if they supplement Potassium, but it’s interesting and it’s something that often gets skipped. This is really low hanging fruit. Somebody could go to something very nuanced as this particular herb for this retrovirus or this bug, but the person’s just simply dehydrated and they’re not getting enough electrolytes, it could be something very, very simple like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% and low potassium is so common, just like low magnesium is common. I think you said what 98% are going to have some kind of an issue.

Evan Brand: Yeah, and I think this idea that yeah, I think this study I was referencing was probably just a survey where they looked at diet and figured out whether people were even getting the the the recommended daily amount, and 98% of people are not getting the recommended daily amount are already on the recommended daily intake. So I guarantee magnesium is in the same boat, probably 90 plus percent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, 100%. I agree. And then also there are medications that are going to affect potassium, right. We know a lot of the blood pressure medications as well as things that like water pills or diuretics. So if you’re on a BP medication, right, there’s a good chance some of that’s going to be actually driving further potassium deficiency. So low potassium levels are super common because of that. Also, we’re going to have problems with potassium if we consume too much alcohol, right, alcohols gonna cause us to pee a lot more potassium out because things like diuretics are going to cause you to lose more minerals, right? diuretics basically activate a hormone that causes you to kind of continue to pee. And the more you pee with a diuretic in your system, whether it’s, you know, excess coffee, or even access alcohol, you’re going to pee out a lot of those minerals. So that’s kind of like vitally important, right?

Evan Brand: And even Yeah, and even tea, I mean, even tea could be to blame. I think herbal teas can be great, but there is somewhat of a diuretic effect of certainties as well. So if you’re just like sipping on tea all day and not drinking enough just straight water or our preference water with a pinch of salt or water with some electrolytes, actually to it, you know, this can happen easily. And this is not just a problem in athletes, people hear the word electrolyte and they think you only need that if you’re in the NFL No, you need electrolytes just to function.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly, the problem with a lot of people with their potassium is, it’s hard to get too much if you’re taking it orally, right? Obviously, you go back to like the lethal injection people are actually you know, in the lethal injection in the prison system, people are actually being killed by potassium IV right or injection. Now, it’s hard to get too much potassium orally because some of the vomiting and from some of the vomiting and diarrhea side effects and the nausea side effects that you get from have actually having too low potassium. Well guess what, you actually have similar side effects when you go too high. So usually you get so nauseous, and you’ll either throw off or you’ll get diarrhea. So it’s very difficult. The only way to really do it orally is going to be with an oral supplementation. And you’d have to do a lot of it and all those symptoms would come into place. It’d be really high. The only way you You can get your potassium levels to the point where you’re going to be too high is going to be on an IV. And what they do actually on an IV to reverse potassium overdose is they do a bicarbonate infusion, bicarbonate actually neutralizes that high level of potassium. But some of the major causes are going to be diarrhea, right? So if you have a parasite infection or a gut infection that’s causing chronic loose stools, guess what? You may be having low potassium because of your gut. I have some patients that need five or six or seven grams a day of potassium supplementation, whether it’s because of a stress or a malabsorption issue, but all of their low potassium symptoms go away when they hit that level, meaning like the cramping, the twitching, the heart, the mood stuff all go away when they hit that higher level. So I mean, the goal is let’s fix the stress. So you’re not dumping the minerals as much let’s fix the gut. So we’re absorbing but, you know, I don’t typically don’t recommend doing more than one to two grams of potassium supplementally and we’ll do a good high quality keylight whether it’s a discoloration A or A potassium bicarb or we’ll do a potassium citrate like a new salt, which is a cheap source, and then we’ll try to plug in the recipe of the diet but if we have to go above, you know, we’ll do it incrementally and we’ll start looking for those low potassium symptoms to go away but alcohol is gonna be a big one, chronic kidney issues. uncontrolled Type One Diabetes will do it diarrhea, like we mentioned. So gut issues, diuretics is a big one. So if you’re on a diuretic on a blood pressure meds side, that could be a problem. sweating a lot. So if you’re sweating a lot, yeah, you’re gonna need a lot more minerals. Again how Gatorade was figured out I think it was the 1968 late 60s I want to say was the Orange Bowl one of these big bowl games the Florida Gators were actually playing halftime I think one of the exercise physiologist or PT people, trainers said hey, let’s get these electrolytes in and they had a kick butt second half and they just they killed it and won the game. And part of it was the electrolytes they put it and now we have all these things. Gatorade substitutes, but the real they were called Gator lights, right? Gator lights, not Gatorade. They tasted like absolute crap. So what you have now are a whole bunch of minerals with a whole bunch of sugar and dyes. Back then they just had the minerals and it tasted awful. But from a performance standpoint, they did really well because the other team didn’t have it. So they their muscles were functioning better. So sweating, not having enough full later B vitamins, having high amounts of aldosterone, whether it’s a tumor, or just our adrenals being overstimulated. Some antibiotics can actually have problems as well. And then vomiting vomiting too much can create low potassium too. And then obviously, just that junk food diet, we’ll talk about what it takes to have enough potassium in a minute.

Evan Brand: Yeah, and one thing too, that people miss out on a lot of these new companies, they’re doing a good job because they’re getting away from the corn syrup and the fake sugar and all that stuff, but you still do need based on some of the stuff we’ve looked at. I believe you need a little bit of glucose to help get potassium And your other minerals and electrolytes into the cell. So you’ll see if you look at they call it o RS oral rehydrating solution. This is like the military grade electrolytes. There has to be a little bit of sugar there has to be a little bit of a blood sugar spike, I believe it somehow opens the channel to let the electrolytes in. I’m not sure the exact you know, molecular level stuff that’s going on. But I’ve read into formulas that are just stevia or just monk fruit, some of these natural sweeteners that if they don’t affect blood sugar, you don’t actually get the benefit. So when you look at legit like military grade, electrolytes, they have a little bit of glucose spike associated with it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and the glucose is better, right? The problem is a lot of these places they have fructose, the fructose doesn’t target the muscles the same way as glucose does. So if you’re looking for an electrolyte formula, you you really want you can get the electrolytes by itself but then if you want if you’re doing a lot of sweating or a lot of glycogen depleting activity, whether it’s football or some kind of a sport that requires a lot of sprinting or running, then you’d want a formula that’s going to have more glucose in it for the sugar source, not fructose. fructose is a problem because it hits the liver more than the muscles. Glucose hits the muscles more than the liver. And like you mentioned, that helps open up that cell with the insulin and helps deplete the glycogen levels and helps that sodium potassium pump work better if you’re using a lot of glucose or if you’re sweating a lot, but if you’re not, and you’re just the average everyday person, probably getting the minerals in without the extra glucose is probably okay.

Evan Brand: Yeah, we talked about mold and detox and sauna and all of that, but I’m really shocked at how many people are doing sauna 234 or five times a week and they’re just drinking water. I’m like, Are you nuts? You gotta be doing electrolytes that is a critical component of detox in my opinion, is you have to make sure you’re replenishing and rehydrating because you’re losing a lot of minerals. You’re not just magically sweating out heavy metals and mold toxin, you’re sweating out minerals and electrolytes. You have to replenish those and you You were drinking a green juice earlier, I think you said your green juice had like 1200 milligrams per bottle or something crazy. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, this is a great brand right here. It’s called evolution. They sell them in Austin and Selma, even in target now, which is kind of cool. Like, I like the fact that a lot of these healthier things are coming into kind of more mainstream box stores. But organic greens, I’ll typically drink the celery juice, but I’ve been doing the essential greens, they have the celery is the first ingredient so it’s still great. I love celery because of the minerals in there the electrolytes and then potassium is really high in celery, but it’s got cucumber, spinach, romaine kale, lime and parsley. And then they have a green devotion instead of lime. It’s got lemon, so they go back and forth, but there’s no actual fruit outside of the lemon or lime which is pretty low sugar. And this has got just alone It’s got I’m almost about 1200 milligrams of potassium. So I got about 25 to 30% all my potassium right here. So that’s pretty cool. So I just kill that after I have my really nice good breakfast with collagen and then I’m already a you know, a quarter of the Through my potassium needs for the day, which is great.

Evan Brand: Don’t you feel more like your thirst is quenched to like when I drink regular water compared to something like that. It’s just not as quenching to me as the good stuff, the green juices, they’re more thirst quenching. I’ll do like a little bit of electrolyte through a pinch in, like with some beet powder and stuff like that. And I feel great if I’m just doing filtered water and I’m not using aro I’m using like a carbon system even then though I water just doesn’t cut it for me. I like a little extra bang.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, I think a lot of people what they’re really craving is they’re craving some water, but they’re also craving minerals, right? And so because they’re craving minerals, if there’s no minerals in there, yeah, you’re going to feel like you’re missing out on something, right? So that’s definitely a big part of what’s happening is your body’s craving the minerals, and if they’re not there, that’s a problem. Also, I’m pretty sure Cushing’s is going to be another potassium issue, right? Cushing’s and potassium is going to be a big problem as well. So now what does that mean? So the kidneys excrete large amounts of potassium when you make a lot of cortisol. So what does that mean? So If you have Cushing’s that’s kind of more tumor induced where the cortisol is so high probably because of some kind of a tumor. But what if you’re in between? Right? What if your your adrenals are just overstimulated, you’re not on the adrenal, you’re not on the Cushing’s disease side but you’re just making a lot of cortisol because of chronic stress. So it’s possible your chronic adrenal stress could be causing you to dump a whole bunch of potassium out. So that’s where when you’re getting stress, under stress, physical chemical emotional, maybe that gluten is causing the stress, right? You’re gonna probably need more potassium, more minerals. potassium and magnesium are the most common ones. It’s so hard to get them most people get enough sodium and chloride because of just it’s in their natural junk food. I don’t get they don’t get the good quality from like a good high quality sea salt or Redmond Real Salt, but they’re getting some it’s really the magnesium and potassium I’m seeing as the big big missing pieces and today we’re really focusing on potassium.

Evan Brand: Yeah, makes sense. I mean, think about what happens when you’re dealing with somebody that’s really stressed right? They may have issues with constipation, they may have issues with Sleep, they may have issues with their blood pressure, they may have issues with anxiety as you hit on earlier, potentially Heart, heart pumps. So all of that, to me sounds like stress induced mineral depletion, which then causes other symptoms and you’re stressed about your blood pressure being elevated. So then that cortisol dump and adrenaline dumps more minerals, and then it become more mineral deficient. So you see how this thing can get out of control. And it sounds really cliche and corny to say, well, stress did it but it really does. And it’s not just the emotional, it’s the gut stress. It’s all of it that we always hit on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. Also people are talking about in the messaging. Well, what about if I’m in ketosis and I don’t have glucose to open the cell? Well, I mean, we’re just talking about with x with extra exercise, right extra exercise, extra sweating. If you’re doing a lot of glycogen depleting kind of movement or exercise, you’re probably going to want to do some type of a glucose kind of refeed the night before the movement. And a lot of athletes who do keto still have a punctuated kind of glide And reefy the night before just other tapping their muscles out, because your muscles can hold anywhere between 250 to three to 400 milligrams or grams of glucose or glycogen, right? glucose in the muscles is glycogen, it’s stored, right? That’s the storage form of glucose in the muscles. So a lot of people, they’ll be in ketosis most of the time, they’ll do a refeed the night before, that way they have access to that glucose The next day, and again, depending on how depleting or how long you’re exercising, you probably want a nice little bit of a glucose, electrolyte drink. And again, that’s not most of the time, that’s going to be just more timed up according to exercise and kind of what your metabolic needs are. But for most people, you know, a good natural Gatorade source, guess what coconut water, got a little bit of glucose, a little bit of sugar in there, and it has a lot of potassium, so that can kind of be mother’s nature’s natural kind of Gatorade. It just depends on what you’re doing. If your kids playing football and sweating a ton, they may need a little bit more than that. You’re going to have to just feel it out. See what works. Test it on your own when your practice To sing and playing and see how you feel with that you may not need pure coconut water, maybe just diluted half and a half with a really good clean mineral water. And then you have a little bit of glucose, a little bit of extra potassium plus the other minerals working for you.

Evan Brand: Yep, you want to hit a little bit of the diet piece. Yes, you and I were kind of looking at some of this before you pointed out. Interestingly, and we’ve probably talked about this in previous but if you look at 100 grams of food as a measurement, the potassium per 100 gram of avocado is higher significantly than bananas. If you look at a full avocado, versus a full cup of banana, which maybe is a full banana, you’ve got almost double in the avocado. So you know as a kid, I remember thinking potassium banana, and that’s just kind of this thing you grow up with. But in reality, there’s things that are much much higher like beet greens takes the cake with number one here. 1300 milligram per cup of potassium that is insanity. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. So most people don’t get it. So if you’re sitting Get in there. And you’re on keto, right? Well, what are the biggest easiest things you can do? Well, beet greens is number one. Okay? What’s number two salmon, high quality fish that’s per hundred grams. So what’s 100 grams? 100 grams is about 3.3 ounces ish. Let me just double check that hundred grams and ounces. I’m pretty sure that’s what it

Evan Brand:  sounds about, right? Because it says here, potassium per six ounce filet of salmon.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So 3.5. So what does that mean? So Alright, so if you’re keto, right, and you want to really be on top of this, or you’re keeping your carbs down, what does that mean? That means Okay, if I eat seven ounces of meat, seven ounces of fish, I’m at 1300 milligrams of potassium, boom, you’re right there. And then you throw in some beet greens with it right? That’s three ounces worth right hundred grams. You’re at another one gram almost. And then guess what? You cut up an avocado with that. Right big avocados. Another 500 I’m sorry, another per avocado. You’re about one gram per full avocado you’re set. Right?

Evan Brand: I want to look up cassava because I love cassava. And what if you like did some guacamole with like cassava chips? I wonder if we’re getting any?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh yeah, so we could do like Yuka in potassium because Yuka in protect you guys same thing as cassava. Yeah. So one cup of cassava is 558 milligrams, boom. 

Evan Brand:  So because our chips and I mean now, some would argue, well, you know, the, the baking process and whatever of the chips, okay, whatever, but it’s still better than zero.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, but a lot of times if you don’t bake it or cook it, you’re not going to be able to get the nutrients anyway. Like, if you look at broccoli, raw versus broccoli steamed, you’re going to see the nutritional value in the content goes up once you cook it, because then the fiber is broken down so you can actually access some of those nutrients.

Evan Brand:  Yep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So cooking a lot of times can make certain nutrients more bioavailable, too. It’s not Oh, cooking bad all the time. 

Evan Brand:  No, I’m just thinking. I’m just thinking of the one devil’s advocate out there saying oh well you’re eating. you’re advocating Eating, you know, chips fried and avocado oil. It’s like Yeah, I am. I think it’d be great. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think it’s okay. I think it’s fine. I mean, don’t make it a staple. But I mean, I think it’s if you’re gonna have something like that it’s all about not going to the place in your head about like, Hey, what do you have to cut out versus Hey, what can I substitute? When you have a substitution mindset versus the cutting out mindset? One, you feel a lot more free and you feel like you’re not missing out on stuff because there’s always a good healthy stuff the tuition option that works. So let’s let’s kind of just create a simple day like what does a day of potassium look like? So off the bat, you know, on the vegetable side, one cup of you know, your typical vegetable greens will be anywhere between 500 milligrams to about 800 milligrams depending on the vegetables, right? Like one avocados gonna be about a gram, right? One cup of Swiss chard is gonna be about a gram. So you’re really at the top with those. One cup of spinach is about 840 milligrams, and then you have on the lower side, which would be like broccoli and brussel sprouts are closest 500 milligrams. So just to kind of give you a sample day here, let’s say we start out with a full avocado, boom, you got one gram of potassium so that now you’re like you’re like really on the way there. If you do a serving of fish like a good six ounce serving of fish, now what? Well now another gram is added, right? No problem. All right, and then now you’re at about now you’re at about two grams. And then if you throw in a green juice like this, you’re over three. And then if you have a serving of squash, or even white potato, or sweet potato, well now you’re at another 500 to 800 milligrams. Okay, now you’re at 35 to 3800 milligrams. And then you just need about four more servings of vegetables. And most people when they have veggies, they’re probably going to have two servings at a time, right? They’ll probably have close to a gram anyway. So you need about, I would say about four to six servings of a good quality green vegetable, you’re probably going to need one full avocado, and then one full serving of a good quality fish. And then you’ll get right about there and then you can always add in an extra avocado, you could always add in a little bit more fish, you could always add in a little bit more beet greens or green vegetables to get you the rest of the way there which is about 4500 to 4700. And then if you’re doing a lot more sweating, you could always throw in some coconut water. So I would say about six servings of green vegetables one full avocado, a good serving of fish and then you can always plug and play coconut water or banana according to what your metabolic needs are. What do you think?

Evan Brand: Yeah, and yeah, very good. And you didn’t mention any nuts which is another easy low hanging fruit so if you can get away with doing like pumpkin seeds, you can get a ton there if you do almonds or almond butter or you put a scoop of almond butter in a smoothie, you can get some there pistachios are super high and then I was looking on this other foods like-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  potatoes potatoes are huge so it means depending white potatoes if you’re trying to keep low carb or autoimmune find Nick’s that go to a squash or a potato but potatoes are very, very high in potassium. He will forget that.

Evan Brand:  Yep, yep. I was looking on this nutrient density chart. Whey Protein is number four 100 grams away, you’re getting over two grams 2200 milligram potassium 400 grams away. So if you can tolerate a good high quality Grass Fed Whey protein, that’d be easy. Think about if you made a smoothie with some greens, some whey protein in there, he threw some pumpkin seeds and a scoop on the butter, man, you’re set.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How many milligrams in the way?

Evan Brand: 2200 for 100 grams of, you know substance 2200 potassium.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: okay, I put 400 grams in the whey protein. Okay, so your typical servings probably like 25. So how many again, per 120 200? Okay, so if you’re doing maybe 25 or 30 grams of protein, which is what most people do in a scoop, I mean, you’re probably about what 500 milligrams.

Evan Brand: I’m going to look up I’m going to see what the serving size is because you and I use a couple professional grass fed powders. Let me see what the what it looks like. Yeah, so so one scoop Typically is 30 grams. So exactly, exactly, yeah, so you could almost call it you could almost call it one third then so you know 2200 divided by 600

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: ish 656 50 ish. Okay, that’s cool. Someone else also asked about the vertigo and dizziness Yeah, low potassium can cause that vertigo and dizziness kind of feeling. So we kind of gave the general recommendation of 45 to 4700 milligrams of what you need per day on the potassium side. Most people aren’t hitting it, you’re getting six to eight servings of green vegetables, a high quality serving a good fish and some potassium and maybe I’m sorry, potassium from a full avocado or a green drink or some extra say starch, squash or sweet potato or white potato, you’re gonna be there at about 45 to 4700 milligrams. Most people may need more if they’re sweating, or if they’re under a lot of adrenal stress. So you may want to think about supplementing, if you’re still doing a great job on your food and you’re not there. You may want to fill in the gap, or you may want to just try it out. Add in a couple more of these nutrient dense foods that Evan and I just hit, and see if that fixes the issue. So, a lot of times people have these low potassium symptoms and they see it go away the BR and all I see is you’re going to see a lot of heart stuff, and a lot of muscle cramping stuff, those are going to be big things. So if you see the heart start to get better or the cramping get better. That’s an easy sign that you’re on the right track.

Evan Brand: What do you think, Kevin? Well, I think this is fun, and it’s something that can’t be ignored. So please address this, work on this, tweak it and see how you feel, I definitely feel better. I feel in a better mood. I feel more energetic when I’m staying regular with getting enough electrolytes as a whole. So I think he could be a game changer. And we can run some of these analyses on your body. You and I kind of talked before we hit record about how the blood really doesn’t change much. So looking at serum potassium may not be the best. So there are some other panels that we can look at, but as a whole, when we’re looking at organic acids testing and stool testing and we’re looking at gut infections a lot of times We can infer just based on observation symptoms, and what else is going on that you probably got a new issue. So the good news is, you can fix this, it’s relatively cheap to free to fix it outside of just tweaking the diet a bit at the grocery or farmers markets, but you can make it happen and make a big difference.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. Now, someone else chimed in about the evolution drinks and the plastic. I’m not too worried about the plastic with these, these are all cold pressed. Alright, so they’re cold pressed so that the juice that’s put in here is cold and these are refrigerated right away. So you’re gonna have leaching of plastics more when it hits UV light and or higher heat. So not now not that concerned about plastic plus, these things have a short shelf life. So it’s not like the the juice is sitting in there for like a year. It’s just sitting in there a very short amount of time it’s not being exposed to UV light or high temperatures going to being refrigerated, right. So you got to keep all that in mind. So I think if someone’s worried about the plastic, I think the extra extra nutrients that’s in there, it overlays any risk from the planet. Plus you’re not getting the heat you’re not getting warm substances and you’re not getting the UV light so I think the plastic is isn’t as big of a deal versus like a dishonor water that sits in there for a year or two and who knows if it’s going to be exposed to light when it sits out back the the the convenience store or the supermarket thought- 

Evan Brand: That’s what I’m thinking when you go to the gas station. You see the guy taking a smoke break you got the palette of dishonor water sitting there getting blasted by the sun on 100 degree day and then he goes and puts the water in the shelf at the gas station. So yeah, I think you got to choose your battles, right so I mean, the other argument would be well, if you were too busy this morning, you’re working with the kids you got to jump on here with me you got to go into clinic after this. You might not have got that green juice and you would have had zero minerals and zero potassium and zero greens because you didn’t know plastic because you would have tried to go for a blender instead. So you know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly plus the higher quality grocery stores like Whole Foods for instance, they got a big dock the truck just goes right up to its full containment and some of the stores refrigerating it. If you’re going to a gas station and you’re kind of limited, some gas stations have the Pellegrino so you could always go by glass at the gas station. That’s probably a safer way but I’m not necessarily worried about the plastic with that but in general, a lot of sulfur in here anyway which will help you to toxify any lingering estrogen. So if you have the option I think it’s worth it.

Evan Brand: All right, well, let’s wrap this thing up. I think we covered a lot if you want to reach out clinically, Dr. Jay and I we work around the world with people we’re very grateful we’re very blessed for the opportunity to help you guys so thank you so much for not only commenting on these live videos, but of course just being there clinically because you help us learn we learned so much from working with people one on one way more than you learn in any book or any study is seeing how do people feel Hey, when you recommended this or that my energy went up 20% we love stuff like that it’s addicting for us. So we’re very very grateful and if you do want to reach out clinically, please check out Dr. Justin at Justin Health. and me, Evan brand at and we’ll be back next week to talk more. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent chatting with you guys. And if you enjoyed the content put your comments down below really want to know what you guys think. And if you have any future podcast recommendation topics we’d love to see it as well and sharing is caring. Get this to your families and friends and people that can use this information to help take control of their health. Alright guys, enjoy the fabulous holiday weekend. Take care y’all. See you later. Bye

Evan Brand: Bye.


Audio Podcast:

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