Methylation, MTHFR and Genetic Testing with Dr. Tim Jackson | Podcast #177

Welcome to another podcast episode! In this video, Dr. Justin Marchegiani talks about testing for genetic disorders that cause developmental and motor dysfunctions. He talks about what’s happening during the genomic expressions of genes that cause these disorders and the different metabolic cycles that are affected, or that contributes to the effect of failed or misaligned expression.

To know more about how genes are expressed and how changes and down-regulation in its expression affect its translation, watch this video.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

00:35   All about MTHFR

06:12   Homozygous and Heterozygous Snips in Polymorphisms

14:26   How Methyl Trapping Relates to MTHFR

29:00   Glutathione, Homocysteine and Methylation Issues

45:25   Microglial Functions Related to Neurons


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We are live in the flesh here with Dr. Tim Jackson. Dr. Tim, so happy we could make this work. Again, Dr. Tim is a physician. You’re in Georgia, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I’m in Georgia.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Roswell, Georgia.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it! And your website is, correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Correct. Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You got a new website coming soon so— Love it.Dr Ch— Tim, welcome back to the podcast. This is your third time on the show. We got you in the flesh. So, let’s dig in first. Let’s do a quick little break down. Uh— MTHFR. Give us the breakdown. What is it, kind uh— why does it matter, and what do people need to do if they have it?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, it’s the enzyme that helps convert Folic acid or Folinic acid into Methylfolate, which is Vitamin B9. And…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …the reason that’s so important is methylation isn’t just one reaction. It’s several hundred to several thousand different reactions depending on what’s going on in the cell. And so it, methylation, the process as a whole, uh— requires not just Methylfolate but B12, all the other B Vitamins, Magnesium, Zinc, uhm— and some other select minerals, along…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And also you need healthy gut function too. So, a lot of people just think, “Okay. I’m just gonna avoid Folic acid and take a Methylated folate and I’m good”, right? But it, also, the gut function, plays into it, too, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And that’s where people— you know— A lot of times, they think that I’m not gonna work on— you know— methylation epigenetics because I don’t start there, but— you know— you’re— You made a great point. And then, the other thing is, if you have a lot of uh— bacterial infections in the gut, it uh— the uh— in the— the lipopolysaccharides endo— endotoxins overload Phase 1 and Phase 2 in the liver. And so— you know— the first thing you want to do is relieve as much stress as you can on the liver, and that right there is gonna help to improve methylation and all the— the different reactions— acetylation, glucuronidation, uhm— saltation— that are in uh— Phase 2 in the liver.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, just to g— kind of summarize the whole processes, the whole methylation is responsible for creating your— some of your immune cells called CD4 and CD8…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …you heep— uh— Helper T cells and Suppressor T cells, uh— Glutathione, which is very important for detox, but uh— It’s also an— an important antiviral…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …that helps control uh— the redox status of the cell.,

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh— it’s rem— responsible for neurotransmitter production, Serotonin and Dopamine. Uhm— it’s also responsible for different growth factors that deliver and process nutrients to the cells. And also, it plays a significant role in controlling inflammation and viral replication or viral expression. Normally, we want any viruses we have in our body and our DNA to be methylated so that they don’t express their genes. And if we’re not methylating well, those viruses can become active.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. And so, methylation, how does it activate our— our genome? ‘Cause we have— all methyl— all methyl donor is— is a Carbon and three Hydrogens.

Dr. Tim Jackson: RIght.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, it basically attaches itself to various parts of the genome, and that’s— It has major effects at— at activating various genetic expressions. So, what’s happening there? Like, what’s happening at the genetic level? Is that methyl group literally binding to each part of the genome? What’s going on there?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So— I mean, you can methylate neurotransmitters, you can methylate hormones. For example— you know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s just that Car— Carbon and three Hydrogen binding or interacting with that biochemical reaction, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: E— Exactly. Exactly. And so— you know it’s important for so many different uh— systems in the body— pretty much every system in the body is impacted by methylation, either directly or indirectly. And uh— you have on your DNA or in our nuclear DNA what are called CpG islands, which are just uh— It’s a portion of your DNA where the methyl group binds. Uhm— And uh— you have to move around. You know, our nuclear D— nuclear DNA is protected by histones, which are these proteins that help t keep it folded up. And uh— there are some things that you want to uh— methylate and some things that you don’t want methylated. For example, you want your cancer genes methylated so they don’t express. If they do express— you know— that’s obviously not a good thing. But, in terms of adding a methyl group of Carbon and three Hydrogen atoms that can be done to our neurotransmitters to move them along the uhm— metabolic pathways that they’re on. Uh— Also, the Krebs, cycle uhm— ATP, and uh— recycling back to ADP. Uhm— And then, the production of— you know— Glutathione is so important uhm— you know— that plays a role or— and it’s affected by other polymorphisms, which that— You know— MTHFR is a polymorphism. It’s not a mutation. So just to kind of tell uh— touch on that, trisomi 21 or Down Syndrome, that would be a mutation. MTHFR is what we call a single nucleotide polymorphism. So, when we talk about DNA, it has [crosstalk] a— an alphabet uhm— A, T, C, and G. And those— so those are the four letters. Normally, A binds to T, C binds to G. But if you get a spelling error or glitch, it can cause some hiccups on your biochemistry. And just because you have a polymorphism, doesn’t mean it’s expressing. So— you know— Sometimes, I’ll get patients and their first page may be mostly red, but they may be feeling great. And they’re doing really well, because the information that you feed your genes, including how you think, how you sleep, how you eat, how you exercise— you know— are you breathing in mycotoxins, are you getting enough sunlight. That determines whether the polymorphisms are expressed or not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So, with MTHFR, we have the A— the A one. A binds to T. That’s the A1298C, I think.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhmhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then we can be heterozygous or homozygous. Homozygous means we have both copies of that snip. Heterozygous means we only have one.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhmhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, it’s a plus and a minus. And then, we have the uhm— the C one. The C binds to G, right? The C677T, I think, [crosstalk] and that binds to uhm— that binds to the G, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. [crosstalk] Yeah, so— Typically, I mean— There’s several other forms—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then, one last— I want to just add one I just want to stack on to this. So, if we have only one of the C ones. If we’re heterozygous, we only have one of those snips for the C— what— It’s like a 30 percent reduction in our ability to activate and convert Folic. And then, [crosstalk] if we have both, it’s like— what— 50 percent. And then, if we are homozygous on both, the C and the A, what is it, a 70 or 80 percent reduction?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, and then depends on which— You know— I know, you’re referring to MTHFR but…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: It depends on which snip you’re talking about. And a good— This is probably a good time to bring it up. You know, sometimes, when you see a plus sign, that means that there’s a down-regulation of that enzyme, and that’s what we’re referring to with…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Umnmn—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …methylation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know, the enzyme I— uh— and its reactions are slowing down. But— uh— there are some polymorphisms where when you see a plus sign, it means that the reactions have sped up. And— So, that’s an important distinction on up-regulation  versus a down-regulation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. And then, if we have— If we’re het— For homozygous, both the C and the A, what percent reduction in that, in that activation of that enzyme is there?

Dr. Tim Jackson: If you have the— If you’re homozygous  for A1298C?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And the C677T.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, and the C677T. You know, I’ve seen different statistics from 70 all the way to— you know, uh— high 80’s. Uhm— The other thing that people don’t realize is that, you can have, let’s say, you’re negative. Negative for all the MTHFR markers. You can have what I call a functional polymorphism, where if you have a lot of oxidative stress, a lot of heavy metals, uhm— those can block or slow down those pathways, as well. So— you know— you got to consider the redox status or the oxidative stress in the cell, nutrient availability, mineral status, all those things factored in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How do you evaluate a functional deficiency again? I— If there’s no ge— genome that are positive there. If there are no positive snips.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Sol, there’s a— a test that measures sand-to-saw ratios…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhuh—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …with your— just two metabolites of the methylation pathway. Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That— That’s Adenosylmethionine versus Adenosylhomocysteine, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Correct. And uhm— you know, Dr.’s data does that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: There’s a— a more in-depth one from a company called Health Diagnostics Research Institute, but they’re in Europe. So, it takes a little bit longer. Uhm— and— So that’s you know, kind of looking at real-time, the food you’re eating, the supplements you’re taking, the life you’re living, how well you’re methylating. And uh— actually on the dutch test now, they have like a little gas gauge.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love that.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Because— you know— like I was saying earlier, you have to methylate your hormones, especially your estrogens in order to be able to get rid of them. And so, we can get a look at— you know— how well you’re methylating. And— you know— I tell people when we first start out, we may need to take Methylfolate everyday. And then, over time, and depending on how many stressors you’re uh crewing in your body, at that moment, or dealing with, you might be able to go down to three times a week or even two times a week. So— you know— the same sort of principle when supplementing was something like Magnesium that everyone’s deficient in, I typically have people take it, both orally and topically, for the first two months, and then go down to just orally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s great. So, I want to get your take on it, ‘cause, I mean, I see a lot of MTHFR stuff and I think it’s— I think it’s kind of overrated. I know we talked about this before because just by working on someone’s gut, you can help methylation, right? So we talked about [crosstalk] where people are— There’s like three— I call them rabbit holes in functional medicine. One is Lyme, one is mold and mycotoxins, and the other is MTHFR. And not that they aren’t real. They are important issues but there’s— they mimic so many other issues where you can have a gut infection and adrenal dysfunction and low thyroid, and it can look like a Lyme co-infection, or it can look like an MTHFR issue or a mold issue. And the question is, Are you treating it, just because there’s so many symptoms that correlate with it, or have you done your due diligence over all the other functional medicine hierarchy and work your way down. So, now having said that, if someone’s not eating— you know— a whole bunch of bread or a whole bunch of refined orange juice that has got a whole bunch of added Folic acid in it. And they’re getting their leafy greens, maybe some liver, maybe some good quality meats. Uhm— Where does the MTHFR hurt you there? If you’re pulling out a lot of the synthetic Folic acid, that’s where MTHFR can really mess you up ‘cause of that folate you’re getting is just crappy Folic acid, and you can’t make that conversion. Clinically—

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. That unmetabolized Folic acid Metametrics actually has a test for it because it lowers your natural killer cell level.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Any comments on what I just said, though?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If we’re not consuming that Folic acid, that— that’s a huge part of this, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: ‘Cause that’s [crosstalk] dangerous metabolites can happen?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, part of it is also— you know, leafy greens— you know— supplies a lot of uhm— unmethylated folate or activated uhm— folate, and not synthetic Folic acid. If you’re eating— you know— general meals— you know— corn pops or pretty pebbles in the morning, then— you know— you’re getting a lot of Folic acid in. I used to have an office right across from OB-GYN, and I said, “You know, I’ll come in and do a lecture to your patients on— you know— why this is so important in terms of conception and uh— viable pregnancy.” And she said, “Oh, I already treat them THFR. I give them Folic acid.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And I’m like, “That’s the opposite of what you want to do.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But I deal with a lot of Lyme and mold, and I tend to kind of see it from the other end. I do see the— the adrenal dysfunction, the thyroid dysfunction. And— you know— obviously, when your body temperature is low, your gonna have a lot of chronic infections.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, I tell people whether I’m working with a pro athlete or a kid with autism— you know— not only does the gut have to be optimal, but the adrenals and the thyroid. Because, if those aren’t functioning, it’s gonna slow down every enzymatic reaction in the body, and you got to tackle those before you start addressing sex hormones. And— you know— In terms of Lyme and mold, it’s really the Chronic Inflammatory Cascade that comes after it that hacks into your neuroendocrineimmune super system. So, it can affect the neurotransmitters, your hormones. And when— you know— Us guys, when we have too much inflammation, too much of our testosterone converts to estrogen. Women, too much of their estrogen  converts to testosterone. So, you know, it’s all tangled in there. Uhm— And— but— What I see a lot of times is people, they try to kill an infection over and over and over and over. And one of my mentors told me, “You can’t kill your way to health, you know.” And what he meant by that was— you know— not only do you need to change the terrain, but you need to— you know— optimize body temperature, adrenal function, uhm— because a lot of people that are going to put on quote natural pass, and— you know— just— They’re getting put on a bunch of adaptogens, but there’s no further investigation as to what’s causing HPA, the uh— TGG dysfunction.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Dysfunction. Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that’s why I really appreciate your perspective because when we’re talking about MTHFR, you’re looking upstreams— Well, you’re looking at the gut function as not just, “Hey. Let’s give you some folate or even— you know— some methylated B12. Let’s go look at all the gut issues.” And again, if we start giving nutrients— right? It’s kind of a sequence, right? I mean, we talked…

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …about giving Choline, giving other kind of methylated B vitamins alongside of it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhmhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And there’s an order sometimes. Can you talk about methyl trapping a little bit, as well as how that relates to MTHFR?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, metal trapping is basically so— You— You’ve probably heard or your audience probably heard of uh— undermethylation, meaning you’re not putting enough methyl groups on hormones, neurotransmitters, and other substrates. Uhm— Or you can be over-methylating, where you’re putting too many methyl groups. And, just to kind of generalize, people who are over methylators, they tend to be kind of anxious on hav— you know— pretty bad anxiety, trouble sleeping, uh— they get stressed out, uh— take some a long time to come out of that— you know— thunk. Uhm— And so, the under and over-methylation can have to do or is connected to the methyl trapping, and uh— you know— as you mentioned, in terms of— on order of doing things. You know— the B12 and the Methylfolate are actually the last nutrients you— you want someone to start, because if you have a significant amount of oxidative stress and you add B12 and Methylfolate, you create Peroxynitrite, which is the second most common or the second strongest uhm— free radical in the body. And so— you know— I start by replenishing Magnesium, Iodine— all the minerals, really.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, like a really good kind of like uh— a multivitamin kind of support. And then, you kind of add in like a B minus, where it’s everything but the B12 and Folate to start.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, that’s what I typically do and I didn’t really get multiminerals just because— you know— so many people are so deficient in Magnesium, but I have to keep up my levels for a while.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Go higher. Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And then, if some— if some people have Pyroluria, uh— you know, they may need extra Manganese or Zinc…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …or B6, uhm— or GLA but uh— you’re right. Yeah. You want to add in a supplement like B minus and again, you’re kind of prepping the pathways because most people, they kind of think, “Oh, B vitamins, that can’t possibly hurt myself.” But, you’ve got to think of it like uh— uhm— jammed up— you know— freeway that’s been closed for two days, and now it’s open and cars are all over the place. And so, suddenly, when the nutrients— uh— when you have these nutrients that you need for these reactions to occur, your body turn on reactions that had been turned on for a long time. And so, uhm— you know— you want to try and go slowly uhm— because sometimes people well— There’s usually three types of people. They’ll start feeling good, and they’ll stay feeling good. They’re your kind of the— I think, rarest, in my opinion. They start off feeling good and have a honeymoon period then they crash. And then, the third group, they start off feeling poorly, and then— you know— they stay feeling poorly because things were done in the wrong order or they may just be so toxic. I mean, if someone’s having two bowel movements a week and you’re flooding them with methyl donors— you know— trying to detox. You’re essentially just retoxifying and redistributing things throughout the body.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, to avoid a lot of that methyl trapping we’ll do some of the mineral and vitamin stuff first. We’ll do the B minus vitamins, which is everything but the folate and B12 second. And then, do you prefer going folate third or B12 third?

Dr. Tim Jackson : B12 and along with the B12— you know— typically, I have…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Tenoxil hydroxyl kind of ones?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes.So— But along with that uhm— Lithium orotate because it helps…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …transport B12 into…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …the cell. Uhm— But B12— you know— depending on uhm— what someone’s issues are, Adenosyl is more gonna help the Mitochondria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Hydroxy’s more uhm— gonna help Nitric oxide a— and uh— blood vessel health. Uhm— And then, Methyl B12, uh— you know— depending on what their tolerance is for methyl donors. So— you know— WE’ll talk about COMT uh— here in a minute. But— you know— if you add too many methyl donors, like for example, a prescription Methylfolate is DEPLIN. And it starts in really high doses. So, you can put someone in a manic state or Psychotic state if you go from zero to seven and a half uhm— milligrams of uhm— Methylfolate. And so, like you said, yeah. Really improving gut health uhm— you know— Most people don’t like that connection necessarily, but that’s really where you want to start in terms of addressing uh— Methylfolate. And then— you know— Someone’s really sensitive when they do start Methylfolate. I’ll have them take it maybe every other day, or every third day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you like it in liquid form so you can titrate it up slower?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— You can do it in liquid form. I also use uh— in transdermal form.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— So, the— It’s actually in Austin, Texas, but Neurobiologix.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— So they have uh— nurse called neuro-immune stabilizer, and it has a higher dose of Methylfolate, along with B6 and B12. And, reason for that is— you know— a lot of kids in the autism spectrum have methylation issues, and it’s one less thing for them to swallow. So— Uhm— you know— Using the topical cream is one way. Uhm— And then the B12 uh— even— uh— You can over-methylate someone just with too much Methyl B12, And so— you know— you always want a— If you’re gonna start that, or do a trial period of it. Start in very low dose and not,— you know— what the shots at really high doses.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s why you want your gut to be working better ‘cause if you over-methylate, start dumping a whole bunch of stuff, you don’t have good detoxification system and good gut function, you can reabsorb a lot of that stuff, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, absolutely. Yeah. You can retoxify, and— you know— just to talk about heavy metals briefly— you know— If there’s not inflammation in the GI tract, metals should come out through your Phase III transporters. But, when you— you know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: When you say Phase III transporters, what are those exactly? ‘Cause most people that talk about detox, they kind of summar— summarize it, Phase I, Phase II, right? Fat-soluble, the water-soluble— water-soluble uh— What’s Phase III?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Phase III is transport out of the body. So, they’re—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, they’re part of Phase II almost. They’re similar.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— kind of. Yeah. This is more in the actual gut lining.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: And— you know— It’s gonna bind the metals,and help escort them out. But— you know— Chris Shade talks about this a lot. When there’s inflammation or malabsorption or assimilation problems in the gut, that shuts down Phase III. And— you know— it puts extra stress on Phase II and add some of the stress to the kidneys. And so— That’s why it’s so important. You know— We talked about gut health and it being important , but no one talks very much about Phase III, and I— you know— just gave you perso— personal anecdote. Uhm— About eleven or twelve years ago, I had IV Chelation, and it did— I have 15 or 16 treatments. It didn’t budge my metals because my gut is inflamed. And my methylation pathways weren’t working. So— you know— A lot of people will— you know— throw you on IV this or IV that without really knowing— you know— the downstream or upstream consequences.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes. So, the GI tract is really important with Phase III. That’s good. That’s why I’m always a big fan of— I’ve always go through— you know— my Three Body Systems. System 1 is the hormone. System two is digestion and infections.I always do Phase II Body System 2 first if we go to Body System 3, which is detox and nutrients. And a lot of it’s built-in for that reason because if the gut’s working better, then that Phase III will work a lot better too, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And— I mean, you want to calm down inflammation— you know— regardless, in the gut. That’s just to give you one more reason to do it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We may see that by just getting rid of infections and also seeing improvements in uh— IGA levels and also Cal-protected.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You’re right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Exactly. Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great. Now, let’s go back to methyl trapping. So, we’re doing kind of the protocol in that order, B12 third, and we’ll probably will use like an hy— a hyd— a hydroxyl, Adenosyl B12, right? Adenosyl mitochondria hydroxy for Nitric oxide. And we’re doing that in that order to prevent kind of the— the highway from getting crowded with cars, so to speak. Right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then, give you the Folate, and maybe some of the methylated B12 forth. Is that the case?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, what I’ll do is uh— I’ll have, typically, people do either Adenosyl and a really small metal methyl, or Adenosyl/Hydroxy B12. Then— you know— I’ll give it, say five to seven days, and then have them slowly titrate in or layer in the Methylfolate. And— you know— what’s that does is kind of stabilize. You know— ‘Cause I try to keep all the other variables constant. Then, we’ll add in some B12, Methyl B12, at a small dose to see how they tolerate it. Uhm— A lot of times, people will look at their COMT polymorphism and they’ll say, “Oh. I’m homozygous. I have two copies for this. Can’t take Methyl B12.” But really, it’s more of just a trial and error. Again, because you don’t—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There, where it talks about the methylation, then you connects it to a lot of the neurotransmitters, to Dopamine…

Dr. Tim Jackson: Okay. yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …to Serotonin. Want to get your take on that.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, you can be uh— Dopamine-insufficient and uh— Kendal Stewart, that I did some training with in Austin. Uhm— He put together seven different neural sensory tests. Uhm— one is the impact— you know— coming back from my concussion. You know— Eye on tracking EMG, and then, testing the eighth cranial nerve because he found— you know— through connecting the dots in a research that certain patterns uhm— on a hearing test well indicates both Dopamine-insufficiency and a viral infection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And— And so, the Dopamine is extremely important. And s— Yeah. I don’t want to go too far off track, but there’s actually a condition called Cerebral Folate deficiency, where you can have normal levels of uh— the methylated B vitamins in the bloodstream. But they may not be getting into the cerebral spinal fluid and affecting your neurological health like they should be. And, that can be caused by antibodies to uhm— beta-Casein uh— you know— in dairy. And in those cases, you typically have to use high doses uh— to uh— flood and upregulate the transporters. Uhm— And— you know— Sometimes, the antibodies will go away. Sometimes they want uhm— I was at a  conference last weekend and uh— there’s several labs now testing for that antibodies. Uhm— Because if you have that, then that’s super important. And, in terms of the neurotransmitters— you know— this is a whole other lecture, but they— a lot of times, low neurotransmitters precede low hormone levels.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. Amazing. So, I’m pulling a couple things up here now, so we can— we can chat about it hee. So, I have our methylation map. I’m gonna open up this image now so we can— we can chat about it. And I’m gonna shoot it over in your Skype window, as well, so you can take a peek at it, if that helps.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Alright.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Let’s see.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Maybe a little bit fuzzy. I’ll put it on your Skype window here so you can see it. [crosstalk] I’ll put it up there. I’ll grab another one here. And then, folks, we’re live, right? So, we are— we are just— This is real. We’re just going at it. We’re adapting to the environment, trying to bring some extra great information here. So, Dr. Tim, pull that PDF. I’m gonna pull up a methylation cycle uh— chart here. Then we’ll— We’ll kind of comment on it and break it down for some of the listeners to make sense of it all.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Okay. Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Here’s a good one right here. I just want one that I can zoom in pretty well on.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Sorry. I’m just having a little trouble with my Skype. Uhm— It’s on my end. I don’t know what’s going on. Uhm— But can you tell me what diagram I’m— we’re looking at?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I’m gonna send you one right now here. I’m gonna send you this one.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, that’s the thing. When I— Sorry, guys, but when I— uh— try to bring up my Skype, it’s uh— frozen. Wait. Okay, now, there you go.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. This— Do the one that’s purple here. There’s purple one I like. It’s really nice. I can kind of zoom in on it a little bit better. Uh— I got it up on screen here.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Okay. I eh— uhm— [pause] Yeah. I thought I worked all these kinks. Hold on. One second. Uuhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ gonna just download this one here so we got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Okay. Uh— [inaudible whistle-like sound]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay. here it is on my screen. So, I’ll just keep…

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, there we go. [crosstalk] Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: … here.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So, check your Skype. It’s gonna be right in your Skype chat window. It’s also in the chat window on your uhm— Google chat. But, there’s a couple of these things here, right? They— They highlight decreased methylation, increased ammonia, elevated Homocysteine. These are all kind of by-products of what may happen in the methylation pathway. Can you just kind of go through here and just kind of break down, just the key most important ones. There’s so many over factoids here. I don’t want to overwhelm people. I just want them to get kind of what’s the big take home? What should they be looking at in this methylation cycle?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, a couple of things. The bit— That BH4 is probably one of the most important molecules they have never heard of. It’s Tetrahydrobiopterin.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: And, itr is the precursor to uhm— all of your neurotransmitters.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s right here. This BH4 one; right here.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so— you know— BH4, you can get it s— uh— in supplement form, but it’s usually not enough to be— reach a therapeutic level. Uhm— So, you can actually have it compounded. Uhm— I have a colleague of mine— you know, for my patients, see them and uh— call on the prescription, but the BH4 is important for neurotransmitter health, uhm— detoxification, uhm— and just overall neurological health. And that can be depleted by things like Ammonia. You know— It says increased ammonia. Ammonia’s gonna— you know— not only make your urine smell uhm— but it can interfere with the Urea cycle. And you can see there— you know— the Homocysteine, Cystathionine, which goes to Cysteine and Ammonia, and from there you can make Glutathione uh— and Taurine. Glutathione— obviously being incredibly important, as your levels of Glutathione decline, your risk of every disease known to man actually increases.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, that’s extremely important. Elevated Homocysteine— This is important for everyone to— to take note of this. So, typically, C677T, MTHFR C677T, everyone— you know— kind of thinks of elevated Homocysteine, and it can cause that, and that puts you at increased risk of heart attack, stroke, and in women, decreased uh— bone density. BUt, you can have perfectly normal Homocysteine which uh— one of my mentor says between seven and nine is normal. Uhm— Or you can actually have low Homocysteine, where it’s down around three or four. And so, if Homocysteine is high, you definitely have a methylation issue, but if it’s normal or low, you can still have a methylation issue. A lot of times, and I don’t want to go too deep into it, but once Homocysteine is really low, it’s going down and I don’t think it’s on it’s pathway, the CBS pathway and uh— thye CBS drain, as they call it, but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right here, [crosstalk] CBS.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. There we go, right there. And so, you know, that’s important uhm— because sometimes— And there’s a good paper on it. S— Uh— written by, I think, Dr. Lord Metametrix.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep. [crosstalk] Lord’s. Yep.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. From uhm— importance of Homo— slow Homocysteine. Uhm— Dr. Stewart keeps a ton of data and he said that— you know— just correlationally, uhm— his sickest patients have the lowest Homocysteine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: On it. So, let’s just kind of break this down, right? We talked about MTHFR. So, MTHFR is affecting over here. This is the metabolism of Folic acid or for not consuming Folic acid, Folate, or Calcium folinate into ultimately LMTHF, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: L-Methyltetrahydrofolate. And the enzyme that’s involved in that is the Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase, correct? And this kind of ratchets this around, and then what’s happening as we ratchet this around. What’s happening here in this process?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, you’re uh— adding and taking away methyl groups.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh— So, you pro— Earlier— you know— we talked about Folic acid and then, I briefly mentioned, Folinic. So…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Folinic acid is one step more active that Folate, but one step lower than L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate. So, I mentioned uh— high-dose Folinic acid being used for Cerebral Folate Deficiency, and that’s prescription Luca born— Uhm— But you can also do a supplement-wise, uhm— from the researchers as I’ve talked to and I— I don’t know the exact reason. I don’t think they know either that uh— Folinic has some neurological benefits uhm— above and beyond what  L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate does. And, I asked that question because that’s what they used in the studies in people with Cerebral Folate Deficiency. Uhm— But, basically, you’re adding Methyl groups. You’re taking away Methyl groups. You’re moving them around. Uhm— but with that BH4, if it’s low, uh— pretty much all your neurotransmitters are gonna be off. And that can affect mood, sleep, uh— cognition, everything. And uhm— So, with MTHFR, the A1298C, you typically— you can see elevated Homocysteine, but you, typically, don’t. You typically— That one is kind of more associated with what we call neuroimmune syndromes. So, disorders, like Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, MS, Autism, Lupus, etc.— all under that category.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And then, with the Ammonia— you know— that is important because it drains your BH4. Uhm— So, elevated Ammonia will deplete, uhm— your BH4, uhm— and it can also deplete uh— NItric oxide in some instances.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So, why is— And again, if you’re listening to this on the podcast, guys, make sure you check out the video because we have pictures up here, and Dr. Tim’s kind of breaking it down. So, we’re trying to narrow down ‘cause a lot of people talk about this stuff. And on the podcast, it’s so hard to break these things down without some kind of a diagram or ima— image or framework.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, this is really helpful on the podcast side. So, we have MTR, right? We know B12 is really important with MTR. What’s MTR doing the [crosstalk] MTHFR isn’t?

Dr. Tim Jackson: MTR and MTRR have to do with processing B12, and typically, if you’re heterozygous or homozygous, you’re gonna require extra B12. And uh— one thing that’s important to note, as you know, everyone checks serum B12, or traditional medical doctors do. But, as a— as we both know, high in the blood, low in the cell…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: … and that’s where lithium transport comes in. Uh— if you look at some of the Asian countries and their reference ranges for B12, they’re much higher, and there’s been no documented adverse events to B12. But, there are studies showing the higher your B12 levels, the slower your brain ages and the slower it shrinks. And so, with MTR and MTRR, uhm— you know— Again, that gets back to the gut as well— you know— with intrinsic factor, etc. But also, you may uh— need B12 shots. You can do them sublingually, for a while. Uhm— You can do it topically. Uhm— You can do it uh— nebulize it. There’s so many different ways. Uhm— But B12 uh— you know— is extremely important. And— you know— the MTR and MTRR are processing that B12. And so that— you know— is where you look. See— “Okay. This person— Let’s check their Methylmalonic acid, uh— and see if it’s high, and see if— you know— they need extra B12.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. Very good. And then, if we keep on going down, we talked about the acid Adenosylmethionine, up here, and the Adenosylhomocysteine. So, of course, these all comes from Sulfur amino acids, Methionine. And we know, we need B6, we need Folate here to prevent this from going down the Homocysteine pathway right down here.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhuh—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, we need all those nutrients to allow this wheel to keep on turning. Is that correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson: That’s correct. And if you look at this little part— portion of the diagram here, where it says DNA, RNA, protein and lipids, think about how important that is. You— you know— You’re methylating your DNA and your RNA.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, you’re literally affecting gene expression. Uhm— And of course— you know— methylating protein and lipids is important as well, but— you know— we’re talking about building nucleotides here— you know— the very backbone of our uh— DNA. So that’s extremely important. Uhm— And in terms of— you know— you see the VDR in here, which is Vitamin D Receptor Polymorphisms. And— I don’t want to get too far off track but al— a lot of pathogens can affect—you know— negative way, the VItamin D Receptor…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: ..and it prevents the Vitamin D from turning on some of the immune cells, like the uh— T regulatory cells, that it should. And so— you know— there’s a whole protocol, where they have you avoid Vitamin D, which I don’t believe in. But the point being that these pathogens are really smart and they can really manipulate our biochemistry, and so we have to really sit down and say— you know— “How do we bypass this?”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and you can see, like a big imbalance between 25-Hydroxy and 125-Hydroxy, right? [crosstalk] 125’s way skewed, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Thank you for saying that. Yes. You’re the only doctor that I’ve talked to who gets that. And, the other thing is— you know— even if you move your 25-Hydroxy and increases but you’re not sulphating it, if you’re not getting enough Vitamin D, and if you’re a Hyper Converter, uh— you know— you might be creating more inflammation. And if your Ma— RBC Magnesium is low, you might be further, excreting that through the urine. SO, you really have to, you know, think through these things and not just throw— you know— the latest supplement at it, and hope it [crosstalk] works.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, we may have to work on getting rid of that infection. What do you also think about using things like Japanese Knotweed or ret— Resveratrol to help with that balance?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh— For the infections?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, for the 25 to 125 imbalance.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ve seen some research [crosstalk] about Japanese Knotweed sample.

Dr. Tim Jackson: [crosstalk] I mean, there’s so many things. I’m all about uh— nutrients, like Curcumin and Resveratrol that affect many different pathways.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. A lot of those nerve 2 pathways, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, exactly. So, yeah. I— I think the Resveratrol uh— is very good. Uhm— And then, you— you— I’m not sure how to pronounce the activated form, as were for resveratrol, the PT— you know what I’m talking about?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep. I know what you’re talking about. Yep.

Dr. Tim Jackson: I have no idea how to pronounce it, but uh— you know— that’s supposed to work really well. UH— And then, what was the other nutrient you asked me about?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, let me just switch gears a little bit here too. So we— we’re kind of here, right? We talked about Homocysteine and these methylating nutrients. We went down here into the Cysteine and then Glutathione. We talked about how all cause mortality increases with local Glutathione. Let’s switch gears and talk about the Catecholamine methyltransferase and how this connects with Dopamine and our neurotransmitters. Let’s chat about that, too.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Let’s chat about not only that but also how COMT affects Estrogen levels. [pause] So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely.

Dr. Tim Jackson: With the COMT, uh— and I’m a little bit biased ‘cause I have it, but there’s a tradeoff. You know— Nature is smarter, way smarter than we are. And w— you know— if you have one or two copies of this snip, uh— there was a tradeoff. You got it for a reason at some point in time. And, they found that people with COMT have, in general, have higher IQs. Uhm— you know— That’s statistically significant and— But the tradeoff for that is if you cut me off in traffic, I’m gonna probably throw my cup of coffee at the window at you, and I’ll be pissed off all day. Uh— and then— you know—it’ll take me forever to— you know— not be ticked off. But, with the COMT— you know— there’s several different uh— versions of it. And earlier, we mentioned that— you know— there’s one. I think it’s the V158. That’s uhm— a downregulation— or excuse me, upregulation of the COMT pathway. Whereas the others are downregulation. And so, what that means is your Epinephrine, your Norepinephrine, your Dopamine, they don’t get broken down like they should. And so, you can kind of stay in that Fight or Flight or Sympathetic Dominant state. And, with the COMT— that’s gets to the other point where you asked about— you know— “Should you start with Methyl B12? Should you not?” So— you know— if you’re a homozygous— you know— two copies of COMT of several different forms of it— you know— you probably don’t want to start right off the bat with Methyl B12. The other thing that COMT uh— impacts is your ability to process and excrete Estrogens. And so, if it’s not working correctly, and there are several other polymorphisms that impact this as well, uhm— on the first page of the report, some of the Cytochrome P450, uh— enzymes. Then you can really be predisposed to Estrogen Dominance. But again, I had a lady a few months ago, she was homozygous for, I think, three or four snips that can negatively affect Estrogen. But when we checked her levels, they are actually low. So, the point being that— you know— you always— when you can, you want to check biomarkers to see what’s going on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. And which craft do you like better? Do you like this one over here, or do you like this one better?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— Probably the first one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay. Yeah. This really talked more about the COMT there. Alright, that’s good. So, what are the big nutrients we’re trying to give here. Is it that more of this— the Sulfur amino acid to help more, though the COMT brain pathways?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, with the COMT, you know you want— you got to have all the good minerals. You got to have all the…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …[crosstalk] other B vitamins cofactors. Yeah. And so, the main thing is just uh— the form of vitamin B12 that you get. Uh— you want to— you know— ease into it if you’re gonna give uh— Methyl B12. And uh— you know— just remember that— you know— you’re gonna be getting methyl donors uhm— from Methyl folate, B9. And then if you get B12, in the methylated form, So that’s all— you know— a lot of Methyl groups right there. And so, that’s why— you know— you don’t want to give too many methyl groups at once because, not only— I mean, it can throw you into a panic attack, anxiety attack, and uh— you can keep— Here’s a little trick that some people may know. Niacin kind of quenches or eats up or degrades excess methyl groups. So, if you over methylate, take too much Methylfolate or Methyl B12, you can take some Niacin to ameliorate the symptoms.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it. So, let’s keep it really simple here. We have three major groups here. We have our neurotransmitter kind of synthesis over here, where we have Serotonin, and Dopamine, and all the amino acids that— that flow into that.  

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhuh—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We have our Folate cycle over here, where we have MTHFR working. And then, we have our Methionine cycle, where we’re taking Methionine. We’re converting it to semi— to Adenosylhomocysteine to Cysteine to Glutathione. So, we have our Glutathione nutrients here. We need Zinc. We need Magnesium. We need B vitamins, B12, to run our methionine cycle.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhmhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: On the folate side, we need B6, Serine, Magnesium, B vitamins, folate, to run our Folate cycle. And then, of course, we need B vitamins and uhm— obviously, the amino acids, right? Tryptophan and Tyrosine, those kind of things, to run our [crosstalk] neurotransmitter synthesis cycle. Did you want to add anything to that?

Dr. Tim Jackson: No. I mean, I think the— the big picture to take home here— So, if you look right here, you’d see no Krebs cycle, which is our energy cycle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Over here. Yep, over here. Yep.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And so, uhm— you know— energy production is affected by methylation, and so— you know, if you wa— don’t walk away with anything else and then just know that methylation kind of hang— has it’s paws, or hands, and all the different systems of the body, in one way, shape or form. Uhm— you know— again, because you’re affecting gene expression, which is gonna determine— you know— what proteins you create in the cell and which ones you don’t. Uhm— And then, you know, with the Ammonia, uh— and the Citrulline and the Nitric oxide. We didn’t talk too much about this, but the Nitric oxide synthase, or synthetase enzymes, help convert uhm— They take uh— Arginine and Oxygen, and they make Nitric oxide, which is extremely important for uhm— basal dilation and blood pressure. So, if someone has high Ammonia, and they’re depleting their BH4, uhm— they will have trouble creating a Nitric oxide. Uhm— Same thing with the Nitric oxide synthetase polymorphisms. And then, if you look down, we talked— touched on this briefly but— where it says uh— Proxy Nitrite and Superoxide. Those are two very strong uh— free radicals. And you’ll see the path the arrow. It says neuronal damage. And then, microglial activation. You— you’re microglial cells, or the resident white blood cells in the brain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mmm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: And we used to just— We kind of have this habit in medicine of saying that something just has a structural role, and then, a few years later, we’re like, “Okay. Maybe it doesn’t just have a structural role.” Maybe it had a lot of functions. And uh— the microglial are— are just like that and meant to be are— are not meant to be turned on for long periods of time. When they are, you get uh— death of the neurons, uhm– the cells in the nervous systems. So— you know— there’s not just a moot point. It’s an important point. Uhm— and if you have leaky gut, uh— you’re gonna end up with leaky gut-brain barrier, and a lot of those uh— Peroxynitrite superoxide free radicals can— you know— get to the brain and kind of punch holes in the blood-brain barrier.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, it’s not just supporting these nutrients. It’s about doing things in the right order, correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Exactly. Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And let’s take a look at this genetic test here. The patients then— this in a while back and wanted to— to kind of just go through just some of the key— you know— take homes here. I know that you have work on this MTHFR support site and create this. So— you know— looking at this like, “What’s the take home?” You see two positives, which mean that ther— they  have uh— their homozygous with these polymorphisms. What does that mean to you on this first page?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, again, like you mentioned earlier— you know— having two copies slows that enzyme down more than if you just have one copy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And the 1A2 and the 1B1, those can also— So, I tend to look at uh— polymorphisms in groups in terms of how can they impact your physiology. And so, COMT, along with the side  from P1V1 and the 1A2, those can all affect Estrogen levels. Uhm— So, grouping those together— you know— one by itself may not have a significant impact, or clinically significant impact.          

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, kind of these right here. These all together the— the C1—

Dr. Tim Jackson: Exactly. [crosstalk] And—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …down to the B1.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Just so everybody knows, when you say CYP, that’s Phase 1 detox. So, that’s in for Cytochrome P450.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh— good.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And, so this is— you know— again, taking uhm— you know— fat-soluble nutrients and making them water-soluble. Uhm— And you want to— when nutrients go through Phase 1, they come out. They’re actually more reactive than they were more dangerous than they were before they went in. That’s why it’s important to have Phase 2 and Phase 1 in sync. If you have a Phase 1 – Phase 2 mismatch, you can have a lot of free radicals kind of sitting around and uh— cause some damage to a lot of uh— different uh— structural components in the body. Uh—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. Got it. So, if we look at this person. They have uh— homozygous here for the C1, the CYP1B1 and CYP2B6, and the— Yup. Those two. What does that mean to you? Like how….

Dr. Tim Jackson: That means…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …how would you change the program now?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, so there’s different ones. If you scroll down uhm— I can’t do it, but if you can scroll down  to where it says, “2D6” for example.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 2DC on?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Just to where— Yeah, [crosstalk] okay. Right there. So, where it says, “2D6”—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …heterozygous for that.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. So, the point with this one is 30 percent of all medications go through that pathway. And—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The CYP2D6, 30 percent…

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …adds to.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And, so now, it doesn’t mean you can’t uh— take that medicine and all, but she need to let your health to provide her no because— I mean, for example, a colleague of mine, her electronic medical records, she does some epigenetics too. She has like a— if she writes a script for a drug, and uh— the patient has uh— it was like a Cytochrome P2D6 polymorphism. She gets a warning box coming up. So, she has some really advance software. And that’s how it should be done. Uhm— you know— you can google the list and see all the meds, uhm— it just means that— you know— you’re gonna probably need a lower minimally effective dose. Uhm— Sometimes, some of the meds on there uh— if this C— CYP2D6 is uh— slow enough— you know— you may not be able to take those medications at all. Uhm— But going back up to where— you know— you had the 1B1, uhm— and— Sorry. [crosstalk] The 2C19

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: —19

Dr. Tim Jackson: That one’s also…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: B6?

Dr. Tim Jackson: …for— for processing a lot of medications.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, uhm—the— the Cytochrome P4— the Cytochrome P4— or Cytochrome P450. The more uh— snips you have in this Phase 1 pathway, the more uhm— likely to recommend— you know— a Dual Phase Optimizer, meaning a supplement that simultaneously supports…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Phase 1 and Phase 2?

Dr. Tim Jackson: … Phase 1 and Phase 2.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: God, it would that be like herbs like Milk Thistle, Silymarin, uh— various like neo acids like Taurine and Sulfur amino acids, too?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. The Taurine— I mean— Yeah. That’s more Phase 2 but it— it does— can help Phase 1. Uhm— But, yeah. And right there, if you’d look at uhm— the last two…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Two.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …polymorphisms. Uh— Those are extremely— extremely important. Uhm— I’m heterozygous for PON1. PON1 has to do with being able to detoxify Organophosphate pesticides.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uuhh—

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so— you know— you might say, “Oh. I’m gonna eat to the— you know— avoid the dirty dozen and eat the clean fifteen.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, that’s not gonna be good enough if you have PON1.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You got to be full organic.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly. And—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The SOD3? What is that one?

Dr. Tim Jackson: That one, Superoxide dismutase so— you know— if Glutathione is here, SOD is right below at in terms of importance.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: They both sit in front of the Mitochondria and protect it. And the Mitochondrial DNA doesn’t have those histone proteins protecting it. And since it’s generating when it creates ATP free radicals. It’s very important to have uhm— enough Superoxide dismutase in Glutathione. So, uh— you know— way— certain uhm— you know— vegetables, cruciferous vegetables can help. But there’s also— you know— supplements uhm— that will uh— like SODzyme…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …that will raise the Superoxide dismutase. But the one big take on here is that— I mean, I don’t recommend anyone take Fluoroquinolone antibiotics…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …unless it’s a life threatening situation. And even though they have a black box warning, doctors are still handing them out like candy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What would be an example of a— a Fluoroquinolone?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So— Levaquin, Avelox, Cipro.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep. Cipro’s a big one.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And there’s— you know— two or three more, which— you know— I just can’t understand why were using things that are so potent for something so minor. But people with this polymorphism uh— I’ve seen them wheelchair-bound after being…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …waxy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow. Let’s keep on moving here and just kind of hit any of the other uh— homozygous ones here that you think are important. Anything here that you want to highlight? The ACE or the ADA

Dr. Tim Jackson:.[crosstalk] So, the ACE, the Angiotensin-converting enzyme— you know— can play a role in blood pressure, hypertension.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— It also can cause you to uh— pee out your electrolytes, especially Potassium, faster than— you know— someone without this Polymorphism.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm— And ADA as well?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh— ADA, yeah. Uh— I can play uh— a similar role uhm— looking…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: About the BHMT?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, the BHMT is that’s— you know— if uh— you don’t need to bring it back up. But that’s the shortcut around the methylation cycle. Normally, the one that I focus on the most is the BH—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So right here? So, right— that’s— that’s the Tetramethy— That’s the Tetra— or the— the…

Dr. Tim Jackson: Trimethylglycine

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: —glycine to the DMG— to the Dimethylglycine. That’s the shortcut right here.

Dr. Tim Jackson: E— Correct. Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, the most important one, at least from the research is the BHMTO8. It creates a lot of anxiety and it can further aggravate COMT by causing elevated Norepinephrine and Epinephrine. So, it’s common for alcoholics to have uh— at least one or two copies of that polymorphism. SO, those people— you know— need to uh— balance their GABA, uhm— you know— with their stimulating neurotransmitters. Uhm— And it’s that inner anxiety sort of turmoil inability to sit still that drives them to drink. Uhm— So— you know— that’s something that— you know— can be very important.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Anything else you want to highlight down here? Let’s just stick with the— the ones that you think are the most clinically relevant…

Dr. Tim Jackson: So the DEAO…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know— A few lines, Diamine oxidase…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— is…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Histamine enzyme?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, is processing histamine in the gut, nd uh— you know— there are enzymes that you can take to help with that process. But you also want to take the 30,000-foot view and say, “What’s causing the mast cells…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: “…to leak Histamine? So, viruses can cause it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: Elevated Norepinephrine can cause it. Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bacterial overgrowth in the gut can cause it, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, uhm— you know— Leftovers, eating leftover food, that can cause…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …high Histamine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: And Histamine, as a neurotransmitter, can cause Insomnia. So that’s…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …important.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. Anything else you wanted to highlight down here with— with the DMGDH or the D—

Dr. Tim Jackson: Naaah. [crosstalk] I’ll stick to the more, I think, relevant ones. So, this one right here, the FUT2, it has to do with uh— B12 levels, just like MTRR, uh— an MTRR, and it basically means you’re gonna need higher uh— amounts or more significant amounts of B12. BUt, it also has been correlated to lower levels of Bifidobacteria…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …in the gut. And Grace Liu from the Gut Institute, she talks…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …about this. Uhm— It doesn’t always pan out that way, obviously, that’s why— you know— you want to do a Stool test. But, uhm— it certainly can contribute to it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. Anything here with the GAD? [crosstalk] It has to do with the?

Dr. Tim Jackson: The GAD is super important.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: GABA right in the brain.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Glutamate— you know— is supposed to be converted to GABA with uh— as long as you have enough B6 or P5-P50, activated B6.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And, if you have the GAD polymorphism— you know— Glutamate and GABA are on a seesaw. If Glutamate gets too high, it’s gonna activate those excitatory uh— cells like [crosstalk] the microglia. Right. And over time, I mean, short term, this causes brain fog, no fatigue; long term, we’re talking Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, MS…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …type of stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What about this? What about this G6PD? I know we talked about that over in the— in the methylation cycle. Like over— Where is it? I think it— Right here. Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: See where your arrow is. Oh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: G6PD.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. So the G6— you know— PD uh— plays a role in the whole software cycle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: And along with SUOX uh—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …which [inaudible] doesn’t check forward to my knowledge. Uh— But you know, sulfites and sulfates and then the G6— uh— PD processing— uh— you know— is— participates a number of RAC of reactions. But processing Red Blood Cells, making sure Hemoglobin levels are optimal. Uhm— you know— Those are some of the most important things that come to mind…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …when I see the G6PD. One little just quick comment about the GAMT. I know there’s only one heterozygous. That one uh— has to do— actually that’s the GART, but in— just in case, so your listeners know, GAMT has to do with Creatine, and so— you know— you can find yourself uh— get your skeletal muscles getting fatigued prematurely, or you might have trouble putting on uh— muscle mass. UHm— But— you know— if you go to PubMed and you look up all the positive benefits of Creatine, uhm— you know— it’s a mitochondrial energy supporter. So, I just wanted to throw that out there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great. ANything else here that you wanted to highlight as we go down the list that you think is really important?

Dr. Tim Jackson: The GSS’s. So, those are the Gluta— uh— have to do with the Glutathione pathway.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And a lot of people— you know— they’ll uh— give Glutathione. They may not be good recyclers of Glutathione.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mmm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so— you know— There’s different nutrients you can use to help with the recycling process because you want it to stay uh— I mean— you want it to donate electrons, become oxidized, and then get reduced again so that it can help out.  

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so— you know— every stressor we encounter, especially environmental chemicals, that depletes your level of Glutathione. And then, if your— you know— not making enough uhm— or you know— your stressors are just too high— you know— you’re gonna uhm— put yourself uh— make yourself more toxic because the more inflamed you are, the less capable you are of detoxing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh—

Dr. Tim Jackson: And then uh— if you look at the very top there, the GSTN— you know— that’s also part of the Glutathione pathway. And— you know— when you add those up— you know— you can check RBC Glutathione or Pyroglutamate on organic acids test.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— But— you know— at the end of the day, uhm— you know— I think— I won’t say our name but— you know— she goes around letting articles saying, “Oh. You shouldn’t take Glutathione because it’s gonna cause substrate in addition.” But you look at the literature and it clearly states that as your levels decrease, your risk of every disorder known to man increases.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So, I don’t know about you but I want to stay with my Glutathione.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Would you also give some of the precursors as well, like the Cysteine, or the— or the Glutamine or Glycine.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know, someone asked me uh— this question on the podcast uh— I think last week or two weeks ago, and I don’t have any answers to why. I’m still searching, so, you may know. But uh— this happened to me and it has happened to a number of my patients. I can take Glutathione until the cows coming home and I feel great. You know— Even IV pushes, but if I would take Acetylcysteine, I would get a metallic taste in my mouth uhm— and I haven’t done it recently these couple of years ago. I would have the Candida flare up, and— you know— I’ve asked a zillion practitioners and doctors. None of them can tell me why since it’s the precursor to Glutathione, uhm— but just know that it can happen. [laugh]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, I would think maybe if it’s— if it’s N-Acetyl cysteine it could be— That’s also a biofilm buster, so it could be maybe liberating some bacteria.

Dr. Tim Jackson: That’s a good point.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: It could be.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Could be.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You know it’s possible.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Are there any here that you want to highlight that you think are really important?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Slow down real quick.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, no. So sorry. All the direction?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: The HR— Sorry. HNMT’s?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uuhm— Yeah. Those guys. So that’s Hisn— Histamine N-Methyltransferase. So that processes— es— Histamine Cysteinically.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So— you know— w— we won’t talk too much about mast cell disorders but Histamine uhm— you know— we talked about a number of things that can simulate the production of Histamine, but one little nugget that I’ll pour out that most people don’t know, the Histamine is not the main chemical that mast cells release. The main chemical that they release is Prostaglandin D2.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Ooh. That’s a good one.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And you can check it through LabCorp. Uh— It causes hair loss and balding. Uhm— but again, like we mentioned earlier, you want to find out what’s stimulating the mast cells.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. So the Prostaglandin E2— So that’s [crosstalk] one is—

Dr. Tim Jackson: D2. [crosstalk] D as a dog.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, D2. Okay. So, that’s not the same as the— as the Eicosanoid, the E2 pathway. It’s different.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes. Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow. D2. Okay, that’s— Alright, interesting. And inflammation has many different effects. That’s why we gotta get the gut better. Phenomenal. Anything else that you want to highlight before we wrap up here, that you think is really important? Like uhm— Do you want to look at the MTHFR stuff? Didn’t you know [crosstalk] what that would do, etc?

Dr. Tim Jackson: [crosstalk] Well, I just cut out the MTHFD1…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh— if you scroll back up a little bit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— So, that means you need more, or you need to supplement less some form of Phosphate or Choline, [crosstalk] or some form of Choline…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …for you to help support your cell membranes…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …because uh— obviously, if your cells can’t communicate, it leads to overall tissue and organ dysfunction.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Egg yolks, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: yeah. So— you know— you can do things like Sunflower Lecithin…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Dr. Tim Jackson:uhm— etc. But you can go ahead to the next page in wr— wrap up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then, do you know where the MTHFR will be hiding? I— I didn’t see it in that first part there as we went through the M’s.

Dr. Tim Jackson: No. It might be— They might have moved it. They might be down here further.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. They just— see if we can do it. M-T-H-F-R— [pause] Yeah. I’m not seeing it come up here.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, if this was a recent test, day 23 on May took away 7,000 markers. [crosstalk] Oh, there they are.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, there it is. Right there.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, there here’s the 1298C.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And here’s the 677T, so he’s what? Heterozygous on one…

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhmhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then, on this C1, he’s homozygous.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I absolutely don’t see this one frequently. I don’t see that one talked about.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I don’t see that one talked about. Can you..

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. There’s not that much research on it from everything I’ve been able to dig in too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, just these, the 1298C and the C67T…

Dr. Tim Jackson: Those have the most— Yeah, have been studied the most. Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, would you worry about the— this one here as much?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, I— I would look at— you know— one of the methylation uh— action test or— you know— metabolite test…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: …to see what your methylation cycle is doing. Because, again— you know— you have heavy metals, you have oxidative stress— all these other variables that contribute. So— you know— you don’t want to just rely and say, “Okay. You’re a homozygous so we need to give you way more Methylfolate.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. Are there any other markers that you wanted to highlight here that you think are really important, like the last marker you’d want to talk about?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— Scroll down. What’s on the next page? So [crosstalk] the NOS and the PEMT’s. The NOS’s, again, uh— Nitric oxide synthetases. Now, I’m reading a book right now, The Nitric Oxide Solution, and, of course, I knew it was a signalling pathway or system throughout the body, but it’s important for immune function, mitochondrial function. Uhm— it’s not just uhm— blood pressure and arterial health. And so, you can buy uh— Nitric oxide testing strips that you hold on to your tongue and check your levels. Uhm— And— you know— do nots— uh— against— This goes against what? You know most bodybuilders think that you don’t want  to take L-Arginine. And in fact, patients that have had an MI or heart attack, it can actually worsen their condition. Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, what would you do to increase Nitric oxide naturally?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh— So, what I— want would be photons, from the sun…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …or a photon machine, like I have a Lumen photon machine. And I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Cool.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— You know— increases uh— Nitric oxide. And then uh— there’s a product called Neo40 that’s uhm— It doesn’t have a L-Arginine in it, and it helps to uhm— build up your levels. Uhm— So, that’s how you go about it. And again— you know— There’s— I’m sure there’s a lab test I don’t know about, where you can check the different types of Nitric oxide, because— you know— there’s INOS, ENOS…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: —NOS.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— And— you know— some are beneficial, some are not. But the point being—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The eye’s immuned. The EES Endothelial, that’s 9in the bloodstream, and then the end’s more neurological in the brain, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Right. Exactly. And so— you know— that’s a sort of a Goldilocks phenomena. You don’t want to go too high with the Nitric oxide because uh— you know— that can stimulate— you know— different viral pathogens and deplete Lysine. Uh— But the other thing I’ll point out there is the PEMT. It’s also kind of goes with that MTHFD1 from above.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm— Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— Meaning that uh— it’s— You’re gonna require some Choline from some source. Uh— And that’s just uh— you know— super important because— you know— just like you and I are having a chat right now, if our cells are sitting next to each other, the sub membranes are unhealthy. They can’t talk. ANd that’s gonna— you know— have ramifications on every system of the body.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it, Dr. Tim. Are there any other genes you want to mention that we didn’t get a chance to go through in that 62-page PDF? Anything else you wanted to highlight?

Dr. Tim Jackson: There’s one called NQO1, that has to do with antioxidant function, and, in some essence, a mitochondrial health.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: NQO1?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Til I could find it, man. That’s an abstract one.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Look for the article on self-hack.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: NQO1. Yep. Not in this document. We must have missed it. I mean, 62-page PDF of— of genomes and nothing’s there on that.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Any other ones?

Dr. Tim Jackson: No. I mean, yes, but I think that gives them a lot to digest right there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We’ve been over a lot of stuff, man. And again, if someone’s looking at this, and is really overwhelmed and needs some help from Dr. Tim to break some of these stuff down or go over their genetic test. Uh— Dr. Tim’s a phenomenal reference and you can get a hold of him at He’ll have a new site coming soon, which is great. Are there any other good resources you recommend to get some of these genetic markers kind of dialed in, get a better grasp on them?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm— Hol— I keep uh— the phy— physician friend of mines

just emailed me a new new company that came out. A lot of these companies are kind of just taking a certain set of snips. And they’re giving like diet recommendations, exercise recommendations— you know— more Aerobic, more Anaerobic. Uhm— So— you know— a lot of those are coming out. Uh—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Any thoughts of that new— that new Viome Gut test?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I’m actually an ambassador for them and I have my butt sitting right over here. So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There’s this conference this last weekend in Vegas and I— I ran into Dr. Steven Berry, who started Metametrix Lab, decades ago— I’m sorry— Genova lab decades ago, and he’s kind of the big ambassador on the Viome test. So, what do you think about it. I know, it’s looking at more of the RNA, where the uBiome was looking more at the DNA aspect. What are your thoughts?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Well, so, It’s kind of the same thing we just went over. We’re looking at uh— what’s expressing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. Tim Jackson: What metabolites are being produced. So it— we just looked at genetic polymorphisms, and we could look at an organic acids test to see what snips or— or genetic snips are uhm— expressing. But, the Viome test I’m excited to do it. Uhm— you know— It— It looks promising, but uh— I haven’t seen the report or anything yet. I got to send in my sample. But uh— it— you know— it definitely looks like  next generation type testing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now, from what I talked about at the conversation with Berry over the weekend, he said that it’s gonna give you food recommendations to alter your microbiome. That will tell you a lot about infections. They’re not making any rent— recommendations regarding botanicals, the herbs or antibiotics to knock out infections. Only food. So it’ll be really interesting to see— you know— as functional medicine doc, we may prescribe various herbal medicines to knock these critters out. The lab’s not really getting involved in the—

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. It includes a Glucose Tolerance test as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, cool. That’s— That’s by Ne— Nevi Jade, right? He’s that multibillion dollar guy?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. I’ve uh—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: …emailed him back and forth with him. I had no idea who he was. Then I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I met him last weekend, man. I met him. [crosstalk] Really nice guy. Super smart.

Dr. Tim Jackson: What—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: He’s uh— [crosstalk] a massive disrupter.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Can you say what uh— conference it was?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. It was the— the 10X Growth Con by— by Grant Cardone.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, Grant Cardone, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Yeah. We’re hanging out. That was great.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Cool. Anything else you want add, Dr. Tim?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I think that’s it? Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey, man. I really appreciate your knowledge bombs. I want to get you back on here soon. If you guys are liking this, give me a share. Give me thumbs up. Head over to Dr. Tim’s site,—

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Let us know what type of information you want to hear and we can tailor to that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So, give us some comments on this post. We’ll— We’ll comment down below or respond to it. Dr. Tim could check out the video as well. And everyone, hey! We appreciate. And everyone tuning in. Dr. Tim, thank you so much for your time and effort and your serious knowledge bombs.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thanks a lot. Hey, you take care.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Alright.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.


The Human Detoxification System by Christopher Shade (May 2015)

Importance of Low Homocysteine by Dr. Lord Metametrix

Kendal Stewart in Austin, Texas

Grace Liu from the Gut Institute

Dr. Tim Jackson – Mitochondrial dysfunction, mold and MTHFR solutions – Podcast #124

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Dr. Tim Jackson dive into a stimulating discussion about mitochondria, the enzyme MTHFR, genetic testing, and mycotoxin. Join them and pick up some valuable information as Dr. Tim Jackson shares his knowledge and expertise on gene SNPs, factors that affect them, the supplements he recommends, as well as the approach he implements to create a positive impact on someone’s health. 

Learn about the mitochondria’s function and discover its connection to the Kreb’s cycle and electron transport chain, both of which are naturally occurring chemical reactions in our bodies. Know and understand the different mitochondria-related issues like infections, low iron and low B vitamins. Get valuable insight on how these issues are tested, including the diet, nutrients and supplements to support the mitochondria. And lastly, gain helpful information about mycotoxin and find out different ways to prevent and get rid of them.

 In this episode, we cover:

4:11   Mitochondria

15:20   Bacterial infections

21:50   Iron and B12 issues

27:10   Glutathione

35:41   Gene SNPs (MTHFR, APO, PON1)

49:13   Mycotoxins








Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey there! It’s  Dr. Justin Marchegiani. We got Dr. Tim Jackson back on the show. Really uh, excited to dig in to some MTHFR, some genetic testing. Maybe we’ll even talk about some mycotoxins. Who knows if we’ll have enough time to get it all. Doctor Tim, how we doing today?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I’m doing great, Evan Justin. How you doing’ sir?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wonderful, wonderful, man. Glad that we’re in touch and your back on the show.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, it’s fine. It should be a good time today.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well let’s dig in, man. What’s new on your radar and functional medicine land?

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know, I’ve just been delving deeper and deeper into mitochondria. And you know- I am always up for myself whether through research, dealing with clients and patients. You know, what I can do to make everything else work better. And you know- almost always I find myself saying, “Well, make mitochondria work better.” And  so, looking at different therapies to, you know- protect mitochondria, to rehabilitate the cell membrane, uhm to make sure it has no optimal fatty acid composition-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm

Dr. Tim Jackson: To make sure environmental toxic load is reduced as much as possible so that the Krebs in TCA cycle can go on. And in making sure the two rate-limiting factors oxygen and ubiquinol or CoQ10 are present in adequate amounts. Uhm- one just quick aside, is that even low-level sleep apnea will affect your mitochondria negatively.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Alright. So we need oxygen. Sleep apnea is basically that delay where you just stop breathing while sleeping. And with sleep apnea, typically inflammations gonna be driving that. Is that correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And it’s a self perpetuating type cycle where inflammation driving it want that- wants that inflammation gets going uhm- it has a self-perpetuating mechanism especially- I know this is a $64,000 word- cytokine or inflammatory molecules-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: interlude six.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So true coz I notice every now and then I’ll have like a little sleep apnea episode like where I wake just kinda like gasping for air.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And it’s typically at nights where I have like a glass of wine or maybe have something I shouldn’t have. I noticed that food allergen response really has an effect on my airway and I wake up with a hypoxic type of you know, gasping episode. So I know that inflammation and even food allergens can be a subtle you know, causative factor for that inflammation.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. Anything that uhm- creates inflammation you know or contribute to the burns and turns out there, but what we called that, our static load-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, stress bucket

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah- your stress bucket, exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bingo.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so you know, we might be someone that we you know, label as a hothead or they can’t tolerate stress. They may have a ton of physiological imbalances and all their ATP energy being diverted to that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. I always tell patients like yeah, physical, chemical, and emotional stressors. Physical could be too much or too little exercise. It could be chronic pain from an injury. You also have the chemical stressors, whether it’s food or infections or metals, or mold, or food allergens, or low stomach acid or etc. And then you have obviously, the emotional stress- relationships, finances, uhm- family, work. All of those stressors are like a little ball that go into that stress bucket. When that bucket starts overflow, that’s where your kinda allostatic is tapped out. And that’s where symptoms tend to tend to occur. And then typically allostatic, allopathic medical world, symptoms =  drug prescriptions. Then drug prescriptions have side effects, which cause more symptoms. So you’re in this vicious cycle where medicine actually tries to solve allostatic load problems or stress bucket problems by actually giving you more stress. And so in functional medicine world, we’re trying to actually take those stress balls out of the bucket, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. The more stressors that we can take uhm- off our bucket, you know- we wanna try and eliminate as many stressors humanly possible. Uhm- and the ones that we can’t completely eliminate, we wanna certainly mitigate as much as possible.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. And let’s go back into the mitochondria because basically the mitochondria is kinda the powerhouse of ourselves. It’s- you have what’s called the Krebs cycle, which is part of the mitochondria we you’re generating ATP, you’re generating these uhm- reducing agents call FADH 2 and NADH. And you’re basically grabbing hydrogen molecules-these electron to then bring those over to the electron transport chain so we can generate more energy. Would you mind talking more about the mitochondria and just how it connects into the Krebs cycle, the electron transport chain, and even uh, even glycolysis, too?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So when we think about mitochondria, we always talk about, “Oh, those are batteries of the cells”. They provide your energy source, your energy currency, the ATP. But what we’ve learned in the past 10 years is that they do so much more than that. Uhm, I actually have a 400 and something page e-book on mitochondria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow

Dr. Tim Jackson: -that goes into details. And if, like I said it’s one of those dots that you know, you can connect pretty much every illness out there uhm- to some degree to mitochondrial dysfunction. And producing energy you know, fats, carbs, proteins, get broken down and go into the energy producing, the Krebs cycle. And uhm- you get oxy dephosphorylation and fatty acid burning in the mitochondria. But mitochondria- some of the other roles that they participate in, one is self sensing and signaling. So uhm- you know, controlling how they’ll wind up in the age of extracellular matrix for that little area that surround the groups of cells. Uhm, it’s important for growth factor uhm- sensing, uhm- immune function because a lot of times what happens is you know, people may test the account or the amount of immune cells that they don’t pass the activity of them. And a lot of our means, those require a lot of ATP. And uh, your immune function may not be working very well because you don’t have enough energy to heal. Healing takes a ton of energy. And so you know, if we have a lot of other stressors, the ATP or the energy currency is gonna be going down that pathway.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Now, how does the electron transport chain and the Krebs cycle connect in with the mitochondria?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So the mitochondria have an inner mitochondrial membrane and an outer mitochondrial membrane. And you have certain fatty acids in on those membranes. And what happens is that we inherit our mitochondrial DNA from our mom and you can have mutations in mitochondrial DNA. But more often, you have what we call mitochondriopathies, which is just a fancy term for damaged mitochondria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so anything that damages the mitochondria, and the most common things are environmental pollutants, persistent organic pollutants-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -and disrupting chemicals. Or we can have what Dr. Alex Vasquez calls uhm- a microbial mitochondriopathy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmm

Dr. Tim Jackson: So you have an infection, maybe you go through a period of stress, a virus gets reactivated. Well, that inflammatory cascade that’s produced, even if you don’t know the name, you felt it before, that’s called a cytokine storm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And those inflammant there’s prone, inflammatory cytokines and anti-inflammatory cytokines. And when you have a lot of stealth pathogens or microbes and bugs build up in your body uh, there’s a constant low-grade level of inflammation. And our mitochondria are extremely susceptible to free radical damage. And that’s important point because the two antioxidants that we need to protect us or protect our mitochondria are glutathione which you know, we both love-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah

Dr. Tim Jackson: And you and superoxide dismutase. So if you have- I know you mentioned uhm you know, genetic- genetic testing but if you have certain uhm- polymorphisms which is like a minor version of a mutation, you may not make enough glutathione superoxide dismutase, or you may not recycle them to the reduced state which is how our body needs to use them. So uh, that’s incredibly uh, important because like I said, the mitochondria are very susceptible to oxidative damage, and if you don’t have those two antioxidants there to protect it, uhm- it’s really open to enemy fire.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally makes sense. And so, I’m just kinda comin’ back here for the energy production part. So part of the ATP part is, is through the uh, Krebs cycle as well as the electron transport chain, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly. So electron transport chain is five complexes. And they basically play hot potato-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah

Dr. Tim Jackson: -with electrons. And uh, an important point for people to understand here is that, this is really biophysically driven more than biochemically driven. And what I mean by that is that your body uses photons and protons uhm- and light to uhm- create energy and increase ATP in the mitochondria. And at any time we can uh, tweak or uh, alter biophysical status of the cell or cellular machinery, then we can control multiple biochemical reactions.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. And how about the Krebs cycle, as well? Krebs Cycle’s the same thing. We’re producing all these reducing agents to help basically bring those electrons into the electron transport chain, so they can be kinda tossed back and forth, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly. So you know, protein, carbs, and fats get broken down into a single way so they can go into the Krebs cycle. And uhm- one other thing that’s uh- it’s just on the side you know, we talked about L- carnitine and you know, the benefit to have of carnitine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, it transports fatty acid from the cell, the cytoplasm of cell into the mitochondria where you can uhm- burn fat and through process of beta


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So if you’re deficient in L-carnitine, uhm- you’ll certainly be fatigued because you won’t be able to burn fatty acids.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it. And that’s called the carnitine shuttle. And I appreciate, your- your biochem background. You got a Biochem degree from NC State, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm – NC State, definitely not. Wake Forest, the Wake Forest.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wake Forest. The Wake Forest, okay. Got it. Very cool. Oh, I appreciate Biochem. Brings me back to my undergrad days. I love it. The carnitine shuttle’s so important because basically your body is using carnitine, which is made from two amino acids, methionine and lysine. And it basically shuttles fat into the mitochondria so the fat can be burned up through that betaoxidiation pathway. Now, in my Biochem textbook that I have on the- the shelf behind me here, it was really interesting coz it even said in the biochem textbook that these amino acids methionine and lysine could be deficient in a vegetarian-based diet. So I’m like, this is quite interesting coz the sulfur amino acids are harder to get in these vegetarian diets. So really important. I see a lot of my sicker patients, especially faced with mitochondrial issues, aren’t getting the right fats, aren’t getting the right enough of these high quality sulfur amino acids, especially the ones that may include glutathione, glycine, glutamine, cysteine. And you mentioned earlier that you have to build that membrane, too which we know that the high-quality good saturated fats are gonna be building blocks. So I went off on a tear there but fats, amino acids, and the amino acids for glutathione, which all play into this whole mitochondrial thing, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. So uhm- you know, we can burn uhm- you know, fat and protein. Uhm- you know, the carb advocates say you know, “we have to have you know, glucose or sugar.” But you know, people in the biochemistry, that’s not true. But yet, different environmental toxic can- and nutrient deficiencies can basically block the conversion of one metabolite of the Krebs cycle to another. So-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So you know, you have uhm- a few CoA, pyruvates, all those type of molecules malatase or malate. And the different compounds, metabolites like oxalites, etc. The enzymes that convert them may be impacted negatively by environmental toxicity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes. Totally. And we need all these various nutrients to pump that Krebs cycle up. I mean, some of my, some of the nutrients that I put in my mitochondrial support, called mitochondrial synergy, is obviously the B vitamins are really important, L-carnitine as we already mentioned is really important. I also like Creatine.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I like Alpha Lipoic acid, I like a lot of the Krebs cycle intermediary nutrients like uhm, malic acid, succinic acid, uh the-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Malic acid is good for aluminum detox as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, very cool. Also, I do a little Resveratrol-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -which we know is really good for the electron transport chain and then uhm Alpha Lipoic acid even some Curcumin as well.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, yeah. Curcumin is one of my go to- probably my first go to supplement for mitochondrial help. And it’s more of an indirect effect where it turned down the volume on enough kappa beta.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhm

Dr. Tim Jackson: Which is the uh, molecule coding or trying to read our pro-inflammatory genes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So if we we’re trying to get someone’s diet dialed in, what would that diet look like to that average patient?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- You know, I’m gonna tell people to avoid gluten and dairy in general. Some people they get stressed out over what they’re gonna eat and so I don’t focus too much on the gluten cross-reactive foods. Uhm- but I try to restore and calm down inflammation in the gut lining first and repair the tight gap junction in the microvilli. And uh, I use the product- And again, I’m not connected to this product, but restore, And it works really well in terms of healing the gut lining, but also helping to increase your overall micro biodiversity. And you know, we don’t typically think about the gut mitochondria together, but particular compounds that are released from bacteria in the gut. One is very inflammatory and it’s called lipopolysaccharide.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it increases systemic inflammation greatly. And it turned on those inflammatory genes. So curcumin goes in, and it says, “Nope, must turn that knob back down.” And that’s why I like Curcumin coz it works on so many different levels of law as well as having antimicrobial properties.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What are the big bacterial infections that you’re seeing in your clinic that are driving up the LPS? One of the things I’m seeing with under specific stool test, we’re seeing a lot of H pylori. I’m seeing a lot of Citrobacter, a lot of Pseudomonas aeruginosa.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A lot of Klebsiella. Those are the big things that I’m seeing. What are you seeing, Doc?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Those are the exact same ones that I’m seeing. I’d also add in BlastocysticHominis.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yup. Parasite for sure. Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah and uhm- you know, I’d do the PCR testing which I’d have good results with.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Which one? GI map?

Dr. Tim Jackson: It’s uh, the DRG labs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I use both. I run them both side-by-side.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And uhm- you know, I wasn’t happy when Genova merged with MetaMetrics and they changed one of their pages.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Terrible.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And you know, the price is pretty high, but I like DRG labs. I think it’s you know, more economical. Uhm-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The problem with that is-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes, those are the common infections that I’m seeing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know, along with of course, you know, Candida. But one important point to kinda make about gut health is that one thing I see people forgetting is that they don’t reboot their secretory IGA.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And that’s the imm- mucosal immune system and the gut lining, the lining of the lung, the nasal passages, etc. And if you just go in, and kill off these pathogens are uhm- bad bacteria, they’re gonna come back if you don’t create an environment that is not conducive to their living.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. And you’re doing uh- increase sacamai polarity to help bring up the IGA post uh- infection removal?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I don’t anymore. Occasionally, I do uhm- actually a chiropractor colleague showed me a study that look at those with leaky gut, and you know- some type or some level of neuro-immune syndrome. And he showed that you know- with leaky gut, if you don’t heal below first, taking something like uh-___may actually provoke an autoimmune type reaction. Now the study wasn’t very big but not the principle that people forget is that you know, if you cut your forearm, you’re gonna wanna wipe it off and put in uh you know, Band-Aid on to prevent pathogen entry.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Same type of thing in the gut you know, if you have a leaky gut, you start supplementing with probiotics. Yet some probiotics you know, heal the gut lining but it can lead through and create a huge inflammatory reaction.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I think it’s really important you have a sequence on how you treat infections. In my clinic, we always remove the foods first, like you mentioned. We replace enzymes and acids that’ll help digestion. We repair the hormonal system, whether it’s thyroid imbalance, adrenal, or female, or male hormone imbalances. We support the gut lining nutrients. Then we remove the infections. Then we repopulate probiotics. Then we retest. And I find that water tends to work the best. But I agree that you really have to do all the other things ahead of time so you have the best bang for your bucks when it is time to put the probiotics back in the system.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. I just ran into a lot of people that’d been taken probiotics for years, even good quality probiotics.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And most people think that they just kinda go down there, and set up shop. Uhm, but they don’t realize it’s more of a transitory interaction with the gut associated lymphoid tissue. And that’s why you need to constantly you know, have the intake of bacteria because our ancestors that’s what they were exposed to you know, based on the soil.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. That’s why you do a lot of fermented foods. I recommend once my patients are really good and cleaned up, I typically throw a bottle of probotics at once a quarter, as long as they’re getting in good probiotics daily whether it’s with kimchi, or sauerkraut, or Bobby’s fermented pickles, or a low sugar kombucha, not the high sugar uh, alternatives that are- I might as well call them, soda.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, I agree with you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now on the DRG, though they’re not testing the individual bacteria molecules, though. I mean I’m seeing that they’re looking at H- pylori, though look at like some of the transient food allergen or food uhm, poisoning bacteria like Campylobacter or Shigella. But how are you looking at the other ones that I mentioned. The Klebsiella, the Citrobacter, etc.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, I’ll have to go back and look. But I thought that DRG tested for Citrobacter. I could be wrong on that one. But I do- to answer your question, uhm- provide- I go about addressing the gut similar to what you do. But uhm- I provide some broad-spectrum antimicrobial support. One of my favorites, which I know you’ve heard of, is uhm-Parsitan.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And uhm- So you know- again, a lot of these pathogens, like you mentioned, very specific supplementation. Uhm- but you know, some you can eradicate with you know, broad-spectrum biofilm busting and then antimicrobial.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. What’s your favorite biofilm buster?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, I use InterFase Plus.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Klaire Labs

Dr. Tim Jackson: From uh, Klaire Labs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And uh, I have pretty good results with that. Occasionally, I’ll have someone uhm, like I have this guy who’s a yoga teacher and help coach and he’s been doing detox, and this type of stuff for years. And he took uh, just the kind InterFase plus by itself had a very negative reaction. And because he has you know, such a high metal load underneath that biofilm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, the InterFase Plus I think is a EDTA chelating compound that so of the biofilms will use led in some heavy metals as a kind of a composition for that it so-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh, some of the biofilms will use lead and some heavy metals as a kinda composition for that shield that hold up, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. So they’re using calcium, magnesium-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know that’s a – uhm- a great way for them to hide from the immune cells. Uhm- you know- on top of the bacteria doing the quorum sensing and exchanging DNA, people don’t realize exactly how smart they really are. Uhm- in terms of kinda manipulating our immune system.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm. And just to bring you back a little bit, but you made a couple of really good points early. You talked about oxygen.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And because oxygen is really important because we have various anemias, whether it’s an iron-based anemia, or a B vitamin based anemia. Both are really important for maturation, maturing healthy red blood cells, and helping red blood cells to carry oxygen. So we can’t carry oxygen and we can’t care nutrition, our mitochondria for the most part, screwed. So how are you addressing in your patients optimal iron and/or B12 levels. What are you looking at to assess that?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, you know I think it’s one of those things like, if we just started with a client right now, and we tested for food sensitivities, they you know- light up like a Christmas tree-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, of course.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- and so I tend to work on the gut to improve our iron absorption, uhm-  increase vitamin C levels- 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- to look at those things and look you know- the binding proteins as well. One thing uh- that I learned from Dietrich Klinghardt, he talks about uh- in different pathogens have a different effect on it. But at different stages of an infection, it may drive up creatine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And at some point may drive down creatine. So you know, I felt to- that was kinda interesting. So I do see a correlation with a lot of pathogens. Uhm- you know, that uh, you know, correlates with these issues as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Yeah, my clinic typically the big three things that I see their driving iron issues are gonna be vegetarian diets.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Number two: female hormone issues that are driving excessive menstruation or hemorrhage.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Or number three: is just gut malabsorption. They have low stomach acid. They can’t ionize minerals, or they have leaky gut and malabsorption.  And they just can’t break down some of the, the heme- uhm- compounds in the food. So those are the big three that I see. And we try to work on all of those. Uhm- what are you seeing regarding the female hormone issues and low iron?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- you know a lot of times, I see, you know low thyroid function.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah

Dr. Tim Jackson: And with low iron, and obviously you know, I think I’m learning expression from Apex but they talk about, if you don’t think iron and you don’t fix insulin, you know- nothing else will work.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s a deal-

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, you know, I try to look at you know, the transport proteins uhm- yeah, as well as like what you said, overall absorption and gut health and making sure that people don’t realize how energy intense breaking down protein is. And is a lot of times you know, it’s good beneficial to give the client. I found at least the uhm, essential amino acids on an empty stomach and luckily I just need a steak. I don’t realize that you know- what we’re giving them, hand delivering the bioavailable version of what so many reactions in their body uhm-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I agree. The thermic effect food on high protein compounds like steak is 30 to 50%, meaning- so 50% of the calories that the energy in that food just gets used up in breaking it down. So when you get free form amino acids, you’re basically giving 100% of it versus half of the getting used to pay the bill to break it down, so to speak.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly, exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And how- go ahead, yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Go ahead. No, I’m sorry.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And how are you looking at – how you diagnose B vitamin, like B12 issues, or low iron issues? What test are you running to assess that?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I will run it all on like the urinary iron binding capacity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: York and total iron binding capacity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, B vitamin issues uhm- you know, if someone can do at least what LabCorp was doing I think they still are on RBC D12 and RBC folate-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh

Dr. Tim Jackson: If not, the lab in Germany. They used to have a branch in New Jersey, but they closed Health Diagnostics Research Institute and do a whole, like real time methylation panel that shows what your methylation pathways are doing with the nutrients you have at that specific time slot versus the 23andMe, which is just the genetic or epigenetic blueprint.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, yeah. Uhm- in terms of iron, I look at gut health and think of that nature. And sorry, what was the last part of your question?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: B12. Any other B12 markers?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So I work at you know, the NMA and things like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: From the studies I’ve read like, for example, like many other markersuhm- B12 levels in most Asian countries are much, much higher than here. And there been no documented cases of adverse reactions to B12. The only thing I’ve seen clients is you know, if they have a polymorphism called COMT-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Sometimes too many metal donors a methyl group is just the carbon with three hydrogen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so all the methylation reactions, given to many metal donors they can get overstimulated.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it, man. Very good information. So just kinda recapping here just for all the listeners at home. I know were going really kinda down the rabbit hole. So we’re talking about the mitochondria, powerhouse of the cell. We need healthy fats in our diet. We need to keep the food allergens out. We need to make sure we’re infection-free so the LPS isn’t poisoning our mitochondria. We need healthy nutrients, B vitamins curcumin, house of the nuclear factor kappa beta, good hormones, good absorption, good iron levels, good B12. Is there anything you wanna add to that summary for optimal mitochondrial function for our listeners, Tim?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. It’s just glutathione again.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Because it’s most the depressed on its ability to detoxify. But people don’t realize that it’s an- a natural antiviral that you have to have it for gut healing to occur. Uhm- it’s extremely important in immune function. It’s extremely important in terms of mitochondrial protection. Uhm- and that again, with the other antioxidant superoxide dismutase, that I’ve mentioned.  Now without getting too much into Biochemistry, and instead of kinda just chasten those individual markers, we can take different nutrients or nutraceuticals that increase in RF, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Which activates all of your antioxidant enzymes, and turns off lot of the pro-oxidant uh, signaling it’s going on. And so things that would activate that or things like sulforaphaneuhm, possibly turmeric and resveratrol. But uhm, thinking more of what can I do to affect all the different symptoms and systems, is kind of the approach that I take.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. When you try to improve glutathione levels, do you try to just give some of the amino acids so the patient to make the glutathione? Or do you give the actual liposomal glutathione? How do you differentiate the two?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I use a lot of times, the neurobiological transdermal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- glutathione. Sometimes I’ll use the Apex Energetics Super OxiCell which has glutathione and superoxide dismutase. Uhm- but overall uhm- sometimes I will give people N-acetyl cysteine-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But for some reason, and you made delicious light on this for me, I’ve searched for answer for years- But some people including myself will respond negatively and have a huge metal stir up when they take N-acetyl cysteine but if I take glutathione, I’m fine. Which doesn’t make sense. NAC is the precursor to glutathione. And I’ve had this and a small subset of people like I said, including myself, back many years ago when I took uh- N-acetyl cysteine, you know- I had a major yeast flare and uh- you know, I had a metallic taste in my mouth, all sorts of negative things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The only thing I could think of clinically as the NAC is a pretty strong biofilm buster.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s some kinda biofilm release with the high amount of NAC. I’d be curious if it happens with cysteine uh- or glycine versus just NAC by itself.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Doesn’t’ happen with glycine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So could be a biofilm issue. Wouldn’t be surprised.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Excellent. Well thank you for shedding some light on that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And no problem. And you mentioned the nerve stuff. The nerve uhm- 2 inhibitors there. I think it’s the nerve 2. Is it an activator- no inducers. Nerve 2 inducers that you mentioned. Green tea is also a big one. Milk thistle, pomegranate, even green coffee, ginkgo, olive leaf and then you mentioned the sulforaphane which will be primarily found in your cruciferous vegetables.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, exactly. And uh, you know- we’re talking about these acronyms, enough kappa beta and RS2.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But the take-home message for people is that, instead of chasing you know- just one marker and take one supplement for that, if we can try and control what genes are being read, we can have a lot more impact on someone’s health.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. So let’s segue to the gene portion here. I mean, talked to then Ben Lynch last year in one of the conference that I went to. And he was talking about that everyone’s looking too much of the genes, do so much of the genes or the junk DNA. There’s only a couple of genes that really matter. Obviously his big focus is on the MTHFR gene, which is the methylenetetrahyrdofolatereductase gene SNP. What genes are- do you think are the most important? Coz you know when we look at these gene pages, whether it’s like genetic genie or livewello, you get like 50 pages. It’s super overwhelming and then one page says this, and the other page contradicts the other. So how the heck do you make sense of it all?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well first of all, I’m gonna try to go back to my biochemistry background. You know, when all my you know- friends and everything are ready to get out and finish biology I was really getting into it coz I’m like, if you understand how the cell works, then you can really understand the body.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And uhm- so that- that’s you know, I kinda approach things. It’s looking at the biochemistry. Uhm- but you know, in order to do that you have to test for active biomarkers. So biomarker it can be anything. It can be like a physical measurement like blood pressure, or it can be your iron level, or your testosterone level, or any marker tested through urine sample, uhm- or a stool sample. And so uhm, you know- that’s kinda how I approach uh- thing. That is to look out- take into account the polymorphisms. But I don’t sit there and add them up and say, “okay this, that” It’ll drive yourself crazy, you know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And we have hundreds of thousands of polymorphisms. You know, what are we gonna do when the report reaches 200 pages? 300 pages? I mean- the situation situation where you can’t see the forest for the trees and uh- I’m probably one of the people to blame for that coz is around 2010-2011 I started really talking about MTHFR after learning about it from Kendall Stewart who’s in Austin, Texas.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But I look at uh- GSTM which is glutathione S-transferase.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm GSTP, SOD which stands for superoxide dismutase.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Then when someone have the polymorphism, just so we’re clear, it may mean that the enzyme that tho- gene or that gene is coding for uhm- speed up or they may slow down.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it just depends on the specific polymorphism and uhm- you know, you have to look. So like one polymorphism is called CBS. It’s Cystathionine Beta Synthase or Synthatase. And uh- one of them uhm- speeds up the enzyme whereas another one slows it down. So you may have some canceling out of effects. But what you’re doing is looking in a blueprint. And I call them biochemical hiccups or potential biochemical hiccups. In your physiology, and it’s meant to empower people because then you can bypass you know, these genetic hiccups. Uhm, so to listen to the others that I’ve looked at uhm- one is the APOE, which plays a role-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Cholesterol

Dr. Tim Jackson: -in health as well as your ability to tolerate a Paleolithic type diet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: It also plays a significant role in your ability to detoxify.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so uh- it really uh- I take a case by case but I tell people, you know- get the printer in me done, fine $9, a one time deal you never have to redo it. But in order to figure out what’s going on, like real time we need to do OATs test.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: – or methylation panel from that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bingo.

Dr. Tim Jackson: – plus all the lab. And you know, what people understand is that you- you may not have any copies of MTHFR, that you can have what I call a functional polymorphism where those pathways are not working because of too much oxidative stress, or environmental chemicals, or nutrient deficiencies.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Malabsorption, gut issues.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Exactly. So lot of times people will say, “okay why are we working on methylation?” I’m like, “We are- We’re working on gut health first, which is gonna help unload the liver. And you know, if you have too many like a lipopolysaccharide-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: It can back up phase 1 detox. So you know, the first step is really working on the things you have to work no matter what your goal is. And so whether someone wants to be pro athlete, have more energy to their kids or grand kids you know- their gut has to function well, just like their adrenal and thyroid.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very Cool. So let’s do a quick rapid fire and just go to the top 10 SNPs. What’s number one?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Okay. Uh- I would probably say uh- MTHFR

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. And we have the-

Dr. Tim Jackson: And then there’s multiple versions of it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Basically, to give people a summary uhm- it affects glutathione production, the production of DNA and RNA, production of myelin that coats our nerves, uhm- the production of neurotransmitters, uhm- and growth factors. And then after that, I would list probably APOE. Then I would probably list the glutathione-related polymorphisms.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And the superoxide dismutase polymorphism. Uhm then I would probably look at uh- the DDR.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup

Dr. Tim Jackson: Which the vitamin D receptor and I would include in there too the BCMO polymorphisms, which prevent the conversion of uhm- beta-carotene into retinoic acid.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And so- then you have to use you know, a more bioavailable form of vitamin A. And you know, people they’re so focused on Vitamin D, they don’t know that Vitamin A is really important for thyroid help and immune function, and gut health. Uhm- so you know, those are the ones that I really focus on. You know, if research comes up tomorrow- Oh, another one that I forgot is PON1, P-O-N 1.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: At- uh, greatly affects your ability to detoxify certain environmental chemicals. So someone has to be a lot stricter with their dirty dozen clean 15 beatings.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Especially if they have a glutathione polymorphism on top of it because you know, there- didn’t have such a reduced capability of detoxifying.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Alright. So we have our MTHFR. We have the APO: APOa1-2. We have the PON1. We have the COMT. We have the glutathione. We have the VDR, the vitamin D receptor. Does that sound about right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yup. That sounds good to me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And I just wanna make sure the listeners really understand coz the big one that’s out there is the MTHFR.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ll just break it down here for a second. We have the C67787. We have heterozygous or homozygous; second we have the C67787. We have heterozygous or homozygous. Heterozygous is you have-

Dr. Tim Jackson: T70 and A2198C. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. A2198C, correct. And the big one is, I think the C is the bigger one of four. And four homozygous in that, that’s an 80% reduction. If for hetero, works only a 40% reduction. And it’s –

Dr. Tim Jackson: More of this- have affect different things-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And again, you know, if you get the report from MTHFR support, they have so many forms of MTHFR. But the two lucky that had been most researched are A1298C.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup

Dr. Tim Jackson: And the- you know, you hear about the C677T because it can lead cardiovascular events, strokes, heart attacks, and associated with elevated homocysteine. Uhm- but you know, you wanna really look at all the other factors that are involved as well. And so, uhm- with different polymorphisms, like I said before, you know- it may just be something that you avoid like in the case of PON1 you know, we need to avoid those certain foods. Uhm- NAT2 is another one that’s involved in the phase- liver phase to detox process called acidulation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And uh- again, this is another example. Some of the NAT2 SNPs will speed up that enzyme. Meaning it labels things harmful but aren’t really harmful. And other forms will slow things down or- so that you miss potentially harmful compounds. So again, you kinda have to look- I look at groups of polymorphisms, overall. And again, if someone’s come to and they have mold practice being asleep in a room like mold, 39:40 listen, MTHFR is not gonna be the first think we’ll work on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right. Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- Yeah. And that’s the time, I approach them uhm, along with healing the gut. And really controlling off the distress because if often distressed inflammation is present, none of these goals can be achieved.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally understand. So with the MTHFR, we have the C and the homozygous, heterozygous for the C6778T or whatever- and then the A1298C. How much percent is reduced depending on whether it’s hetero or homozygous for each?

Dr. Tim Jackson: It’s different for different versions of MTHFR. Ah and uh-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: For the C and A versions.

Dr. Tim Jackson: What’s that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: For the C and A versions-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, Yes. So the C677T and the A1298C are the two that you’re talking about, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct. Correct.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So the A1298C doesn’t get much attention. It’s more associated with neuro-immune type issues.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Meaning autoimmune disorders, uhm- lupus, sjogren’s, rheumatoid arthirits. Those sorts of things. Uhm- it’s also associated uh- to some degree in the research with autism. Uhm- but research shows for both C677T form and the A1298C form uhm- you know, they are responsible for different things. And again, you haven’t even know there’s dozens of different versions of MTHFR SNPs. Those are just the ones with uh- most research behind them now. And so in order- you asked me how much is that enzyme function reduced, I forget the statistics- you know, varied by ethnicity. Uhm- but again, we have to factor in oxidative stress, uh- heavy metals, uhm- nutrient depletion.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: People don’t take those into account. And I won’t name any names but there’s a lady that you know- wants you to do like $2000 a month of testing and you need if you have the polymorphism, you take these four supplements and that you have this polymorphism to these two and could wind up on like $600 a month of supplement. And you don’t even know if they’re expressing. And so a lot of the so-called uh- polymorphisms will be silent by doing things we discussed, such as controlling inflammation, improving gut health, improving blood sugar, optimizing iron and oxygen delivery. All those things are positive signals sent to our nucleus of ourselves.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So let’s say we have the homozygous of the C677T, so we have that 70 to 80% reduction in that enzyme. So let’s say we’re doing all the downstream things, right. We’re doing the glutathione, the diet, the- the,uhm- oxygen support, the B vitamins. What other supplements would we add in on the methylated nutrient side? Will we just be focusing on L- LMTHF Folate? We do methyl B12, or hydroxyl, or adenosyl B12? Will- what would you recommend on the supplement sites specific for those SNPs?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, first would be- And I know I sound like a broken record- supplements to go after inflammation. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So Carnosine, maybe CBD oil. Uhm- but the- one of the two probably most important nutrients that are crucial for all these methylation reactions, there’s hundreds of them, are magnesium and zinc. You know- let’s not get away from the basic too far here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Of course.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- they’re cofactors. That’s what they are, for enzymatic reactions in the body. And so now I work on repleting someone’s RBC magnesium and RBC zinc. I make sure that we have the other B vitamins like, B1, B2, B3-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: B5. Uhm- and as far as B12, usually most people do pretty well in a combination of the Adenosyl N-Methyl. Like I said, some people who are really sensitive to metal donors uhm- will get overstimulated by too- too much folate and B-12. But one important point I make here- just, I’m not trying to scare people, but a lot of people coming to me with these reports, and uhm- you know they just want to take methylfolate and B12 and be done with it. But if you take those two nutrients in the presence of oxidative stress, you create something called proxy nitrite.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhh-

Dr. Tim Jackson: That is a very harmful compound to all of our cellular structures. And so order here is important. There is a method to demand. And so, you know- again, the other B vitamin cofactors B5, B6, biotin, uhm- you add in B12 and methylfolate is last.  And then for the transport of B12 to get into your cells, you need lithium orotate. Uhm- you know, lithium is important trace mineral.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hum-

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it uh- it has really good properties in terms of neural protection or brain protection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So when we add all these nutrients in, we talked about the magnesium, the zinc, the B vitamins, when would you in particularly use methyl B12 versus the Adenosyl B12 versus hydroxyl B12? How would you apply that specifically with each patient?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So with Adenosyl, it works more on the mitochondria. So if you really have someone with a lot of mitOochondrial issues, I’ll use a lot of Adenosyl.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Methyl, I- what I do is you will start on methyl adenosyl and then later on, when they’re processing uhm- the B vitamins well, I’ll add in you know the methylcobalamin. As far as the hydroxy B12, you can check someone’s uhm– T-ADMA for nitric oxide status. Uhm, hydroxy B12 works on improving nitric oxide levels which-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Tim Tim Jakson: – is you know, important self-signaling molecule in immune function and that’s your function.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Excellent. So anything else you wanna comment on regarding methylation? Do you feel you’ve done a good job hitting all the key points?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. The fact- so many systems in the body and I wanna make an important point here, if you don’t remember anything else. Remember that if you have MTHFR, the more copies you have, the less ability you have to uh- metabolize folic acid. So the whole point here is that-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Folic acid will build up in your bloodstream and studies show that it will lower your natural killer cells, which is not good for fighting pathogens or for cancer risk. And so uh- I see a lot of OB/GYN putting people on folic acid even when they know they have MTHFR.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it just goes back to a fundamental misunderstanding or lack of understanding of basic biochemistry. Because that’s the whole point of MTHFR that you cannot process the folic acid that’s added to things like grains and cereals.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. That’s the key thing is, you gotta make sure you’re at least on LMTHF Folate uh- or Calcium Folinate. But again, if a supplement company chose to put folic acid in there, they’ve really made a statement that they’re undervaluing the raw material that they’re putting in their supplements. So that’s super important and like you said, the refine fortified junk food, is what’s gonna have the folic acid in. It’s gonna be the orange juice, the bread, the grains, that kinda stuff.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Uh and real quick there’s the condition uhm-

called cerebral folate deficiency, whereby you cannot get folate into the central nervous system uhm- in the cerbrospinal fluid uhm- I know there’s- I think one maybe two lab tests for it. When I learned about it was actually a research project by Doctor Quadro’s State University of New York. And uh- different you know, experts or authority years in the area will say you know different things about it. But uhm- with cerebral folate  deficiency, most of the time the way someone supplements is using Leucovorin which is prescription folinic acid.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So we have about folic acid. Well one step more active than that is folinic acid. And I asked Dr.Quadros, “why do you guys use this in the study, that they have MTHFR why not use different–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah

Dr. Tim Jackson: Or when I used up on your you know- L-5-MTHF directly and he said, “One, it was just the way to study was written and two, there’s some potential neurotransmitter neurological uhm- functions that can be improved with Leucovorin versus uh- L-5-MTHF”. But you basically have to hypersaturate the receptors so that you can get transport across the brain and this affects the central nervous system greatly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Excellent knowledge bombs there, Dr. Tim. I wanna give it here briefly, man. I wanna talk about mycotoxins. And mycotoxins are gonna be the toxins produced by mold. We’ve talked about this in our previous podcast that we did. So please refer back to the first podcast. But mycotoxins are really important. Obviously the first line of defense. I’m not gonna put words in your mouth. Correct me if I’m wrong. But get out of the environment where the mold is. That’s probably number one. And number two is it will involve other steps. I wanted to kinda get you a breakdown of what people should do outside of the first step, environmental removal uhm- next to kind of eliminate and reduce mycotoxin exposure.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, yeah. Number one you gotta get rid of the moisture source.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So depending on where you live, like I was in South Carolina, I have to have two digimon of fires underneath the house. And I have one running upstairs even during the winter. And uh- you know there’s gonna be mold everywhere. But what happens is in a lot of people think mold is only in older homes. But with new homes, they try to build them to be so energy-efficient that it only leaves a few species of mold in the house. And you know it’s called niche exclusion like in the gut. If you only have a couple species of good bacteria, you can have an overgrowth of those good bacteria and undergrowth of- or deficiency of the others. And uhm- with mycotoxins, we can do a few different types of environmental test. The ones at your hardware store are not accurate. But uh- typically that will come back. There’s one test called an RMI.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: RMI. Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Capital R-M-I. Uhm- and there’s uh- you know, it’s not really new anymore but it’s called the HERTSMI-2 Test. And this third one I’ll mention is the Realtime Lab. They offer environment test. And so wanna test your environment and you’ll be surprised because I know it takes darkness and a moisture source and most people don’t to their ductwork clean enough. And these mycotoxins are very low molecular weight proteins. So most air filters will not get them. But uh- you can have someone who’s certified in testing come in, which I did. And then type up a pretty long report and they list the species that you have and what’s important here is that there are certain genetic glitches. And this is not on a 23andMe but there’s one called the human leukocyte antigen. And there are many of those, but one has to do with your ability to detoxify mycotoxins. I happen to have the worst one called the dreaded genotype. And that means –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, man.

Dr. Tim Jackson: My immune system does not tag mycotoxins when I ingest some, whether it’s through food or breathing. And so they build up in my body. And you wanna talk about something that would disrupt every other system in the body, you can have the male- you can have a testosterone level of a thousand and a great free testosterone level. But if you still have mycotoxins, you’re gonna feel horrible. Your- five different types of your immune cells are gonna be turned off. And that’s just from one mycotoxin called the gliotoxin. And you know, it affects- causes system wide chronic inflammatory response syndrome. And even after the removal of the stressor, your immune system may still be reacting strongly. And so you can kill the mold but a lot of people will use things like ozone and ozone industrial mold. But it releases dead mycotoxins which are immunogenic or stimulating to the immune system. So the most reliable method I’ve come across is using biodegradable enzymes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: It was expensive. It was about $10,000 but I’ve heard of people spinning up to 70 grand per mold for mediation. So you wanna really work with someone who is reputable and you know, who’s not out just trying make money and failed when you did everything to tear down your house. So the- I bring up the genetic glitch that can be tested through LabCorp and there’s five different levels of that genotype. And 25% of the population has one. So what I’m getting at here is that, you can have an allergy or sensitivity to a mold, but the issue that I’m really focusing on here is the inability to detoxify mycotoxins. And that’s where ___ comes in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: We have the dreaded genotype as well. That’s why he makes bulletproof coffee.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Coffee, nuts, grains. Things like that are gonna be resources of mycotoxins available.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Big deal. Uh, but they’re not part of that 25% of the population that have the genetic glitch. And so these things may be- be very small, very low molecular weight, but they can disrupt everything from hormones to brain function, to immune function. Gut health is another one, if you have a client or patient who’s gut won’t heal. I won’t get into why that it has do with the hormone help alpha-MSH. But the mycotoxins- so we talked testing the environment.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Test your body level, there is a urine mycotoxin test RealTime Labs. But there is a kicker to it. You want to do a glutathione push you know, you’re hooked up to the IV and they just push some glutathione or taken a large oral bowl of some glutathione, about 30 to 45 minutes before collecting your urine to this test. Because if I were to take that test, and I didn’t do that, it would come up with low levels because I’m a porch greeter. It’s sort of the same thing as metals.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Metals. Yes

Dr. Tim Jackson: So when I take little time and then check my mycotoxin levels, it will tell me where I am. And uh- the follow-up testing is much cheaper than the original test, which is pretty expensive. But we want check your body burden to see how aggressive we need to be in terms of getting each mycotoxins out. So how we get them out? We bind them up in the bile and/or we use a protocol called the lipid exchange protocol. And it can be a combination of oral and IV fatty acids. And all you’re doing is you’re rehabing the cell membranes. And when you do that, that allows talking to move out and nutrients to move in. and it’s a high-fat diet, uh- moderate protein diet, low carbohydrate diet because you’re trying to reduce positive stress in the cell membranes. And a combination of that, the Patricia- It’s called the Patricia Kane protocol or lipid exchange protocol, along with using binders, works really well. Uhm- you may also have an infection of those mycotoxins. So they may have created a systemic infection. Then you would have to take either herbal, some sort of neutraceutical prescription, antifungal to get rid of that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So looking at all the different options we have, right. We’re decreasing the moisture, the humidifiers, we’re maybe using a mold remediation service that uses some enzyme therapies to help clean things out.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There’s some decent air filters out there that are better that will at least help partially. Uhm- you mention the glutathione, right. Especially like a challenge when you test it with Realtime. But you could probably use liposomal glutathione as well. What about- And you mention the bile, right. So eating fats gonna be helpful coz that will stimulate the bile to release your- stimulate your gallbladders release bile, which is like changing that the gunky oil. What about modified citrus pectin? What about zeolite? What about activated charcoal? What are your thoughts on those things?

Dr. Tim Jackson: From my friends who are certified in the Shoemaker Protocol.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Shoemaker uses a cholesterol medication called cholestyramine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: The issue with that is that-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Super expensive.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You get it sometimes it is very expensive. But two, it’s gonna bind up all your good nutrients.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it usually constipates you. And most people with bile issue’s already constipated.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- But you- that medication and also have aspartame in it. Uhm- for $200 and something for a month supply, you can get it compounded. Uhm- there’s another prescription called Welchol. And again, these are both cholesterol medications.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it’s interesting because they hand them out like candy for high cholesterol. But when my clients need them for binding mold, they look at you like, “Oh, no! we would never do that.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know. It’s crazy.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But if question about modified citrus pectin and act with a charcoal-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What about bentonite clay?

Dr. Tim Jackson: What- bentonite clay. Yeah. The one that uhm- the KIinghardt Community, the Biotoxin Community is kind of found to be most efficient. It’s from a nutraceutical perspective. It’s TakesumiSupreme .

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Which is this uhm- you know, from bamboo tree.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bamboo shoots. Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And so it’s pretty much like activated charcoal. Uhm- but there’s also another uh- process and I’ll try to find the link whereby uhm- while you’re trying to detoxify the mycotoxins, you neutralize them so they’re less reactive in the body. And someone figured out that uh- specific type of Hawaiian Noni Juice.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:Ahh-

Dr. Tim Jackson: -like that. Uh, I have no connection to the company but you know, I’ve heard great things about it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How about just juicing the herbs? I know what uh- I know you’re referring to Dr.

Dr. Tim Jackson: serves no way to know your friend it to Dr. Michael Leibowitz. He has a talk, Takesumi Supreme. He also has the Noni Supreme. Do you prefer the Noni as well to have those same effects?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- I have not used Noni a lot, to be quite honest. And so, you know- Again, my go to is uhm- the Takesumi Supreme uhm- or Modified Citrus Pectin, uh- you know, Pectasol, uhm-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But you can also use, like you said, the bentonite clay. I just don’t have a tox of experience using it. And I just kinda you know, lots of times- It’s hard to research in all these different areas. So you kind have to stick to some of your-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -routine. Uhm-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How about Zeolite?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So that’s pretty much what I do.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How about Zeolite, Doc?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, Zeolite. Sorry about that. Well a lot – as you know, a lot of uh- different companies sold Zeolite that- It’s contaminated –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: – with aluminum. Uhm- and I extense up my cells.Uhm- I won’t name the company but uhm- five of their models went out, they took it. There is a product that- and I’m not gonna mention it coz I haven’t fully- I don’t feel fully comfortable mentioning it, but it is a certain type of Zeolite that very public figure recommends to get into the cell. But it’s also sold by another company in another name and it- supposedly has testing to show that is not contaminated with uhm- aluminum. Uhm- and it’s supposed to be small enough this- the biophysical structure is supposed to be small enough that it can cross over into the cell.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Awesome, Doc. You drop some serious knowledge bombs here. Well, to save everything else for a part two. I love it. But last question here for you. If you’re stuck on a desert island, what’s the one supplement you- you bring with yourself?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Curcumin

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Curcumin

Dr. Tim Jackson: Hands down.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Curcumin. Love it. Hands down. Kinda help modulate that nuclear factor kappa beta, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: That’s right. There you go. You got it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it, Doctor Tim. Well, anyone listening here, Doctor Tim is available worldwide for Skype and phone consults. His Facebook is He’s got a great blog post there. He’s also been on lots of other podcast like myself, bulletproof radio, etc. etc. So he’s a knowledge wealth. Dr. Tim, thank you so much for coming on the show. We appreciate the knowledge bombs. Anything else you want to leave our listeners with here today?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I would say that uh- the general concept is just because you can’t see something, doesn’t mean it’s not having a tremendous impact and effect on your health. And that applies to two things I deal with daily. One, EMF.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhh.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know- uhm, electro magnetic pollution.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And the other one is mycotoxins. So two things that we can’t really see, but are having a tremendous impact on us. I know we don’t have time to get into this, but EMF have been shown to activate something called the cell danger response.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oohh.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And basically hijacks all the workings and uhm- metabolism of the cell. And so uhm- an interesting fact for Dietrich Klinghardt points out is that people that are in high EMF environments or non-native EMF environments who have mold. They get sicker because those vibrations and frequencies send signals to the mold to produce more mycotoxin and and more potent mycotoxin.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I think it’s’ stronger. Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally make sense. We gotta be inflammation detectives.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Absolutely. You gotta understand what you see and understand what’s happening of the cell and how to fix the cell, you fix everything else coz you gotta remember all your different organ systems are made of cell.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well it’s really great to have you Biochem background here in the show, Doctor Tim. Thank you so much and you have an awesome day. We’ll talk real soon.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Awesome. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thank you.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Alright. Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.



Dr. Tim Jackson – Methylation, Metal Detox, & Pain Reduction – Podcast #43

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Dr. Tim Jackson talk about in depth about MTHFR and heavy metal detox in this podcast. Dr. Tim shares with us   He also talks about external manifestations of internal problems and tells us about the effective therapy techniques such as ART or active release technique. Dr. Tim Jacksom

Know more about the holistic approach at looking at the whole kinetic chain in the body. Listen to this podcast and discover what gives us oxidative stress so we can avoid it as well as how to improve mitochondrial function. Don’t know what methylation is really all about? Don’t worry. Dr. Justin and Dr. Tim got it all covered.

In this episode, we review:

08:06   How to reduce pain and inflammation naturally.

21:20   Whats the deal with MTHFR and impo.

22:00   What the MTHFR is and why it’s important.

33:28   Heavy metal detoxification and ways to test for it.

44:12   Information about vaccination and their adjuvants.








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Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, there!  This is Dr. Justin Marchegiani and welcome to another awesome episode of Beyond Wellness Radio.  Again, we have a great show in store for you.  Before, go to, click on the Newsletter Signup button and you can sign up for our newsletter and get show updates right in your inbox before anyone else.  You can also click on the Questions button and even speak questions live, and we’ll be able to answer it on the air for you.

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Again, we have an awesome show in store. Stay tuned.

Hey, there!  It’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani.  Welcome back to Beyond Wellness Radio.  Today we have an awesome guest, Dr. Tim Jackson.  We’re super excited to have him come in.  He was just on the Bulletproof Radio podcast a few months ago and he talked about MTHFR and some heavy metal detoxification stuff and I’m really interested to bring some of this information to our listeners.  So Dr. Tim, how we doing today?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  I’m doing great.  How are you doing, Dr. Marchegiani?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I’m doing great.  I’m doing good, really excited to get you on.  We have been plain email or Facebook app for the last few months but I am really stoked to get you on today.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Absolutely, well thank you for having me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, thank you.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Now I know you’re a DPT which is a Doctor of Physical Therapy and it’s kinda similar to me.  I’m a Doctor of Chiropractic and both of these, you know, fields kind of emanated more from the structural side of things.  And we both have taken a lot of time over the last years to decade to really study functional medicine and I’m just curious, kind of your background on how you came into functional medicine and became an expert in your field through the– through the PT world.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, basically, I want undergraduate at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, straight off to academic school and I was premed.  I took all the classes required for traditional allopathic Medical School.  Did very well academically but got into working out and eating healthier and into nutrition while I was there and you know, I did some preceptorship at the medical school at Bowman Gray Medical School in Wake Forest, and you know, most of the doctors said, “You know, if you’re interested in the nutrition and prevention aspect, you know, you may want to consider another route.”  But I still had plans to go and get my MD and just kinda do my own thing.  In my senior year, I had a major jaw surgery on top of having mono and my health went downhill quickly.  I had a huge candida infection which, you know, back then, today candida is all the rage, but back then I mean if you were talking about it and so–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And so, you know, I went untreated with that for about 2-1/2 to 3 years, you know, extreme fatigue, heavy metal toxicity, gut issues, malabsorption, you know, brain fog, and those sorts of things, and it basically emanated from that surgery that I had.  In hindsight, you know, being 20-20, I probably had Lyme, you know, since I was a child growing up in the country in South Carolina.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  After the trauma of the surgery which I was under anesthesia for 8 hours, much longer than it should have been, that probably was enough of the trigger for the Lyme to be opportunistic and to take over my body.  So then, you know, eventually about 2-1/2 years later, I found an integrated ear, nose, and throat doctor who treated for candida with probiotics and some just basic supplements that we basically all take now.  And I knew I wanted to get a doctorate but at that point I knew enough about functional medicine that I knew I would have a hard time sitting through an allopathic 4-year medical school and you know learning that information, knowing that a lot of it was simply wasn’t true.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and not even that, also a 3-year residency on top of that.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, and I spoke with a friend who was actually a DC and an MD, and he said, you know, if he was in residence, you know, that he would prescribe supplements and you know, they would slap him on the wrist for it.  So I decided not to go that route and originally, took about 9 Psychology courses.  I was gonna get a PhD in Psychology and be a sports psychologist.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  But then I decided that I really like the hands-on part and since I’d already spent a lot of money on undergrad, I wanted to stay close to home for my doctorate program, and I went to the medical university of North Carolina.  So the Doctor of Physical Therapy program was 9 semesters, gross anatomy–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Biochemistry, physiology, nutrition, all those things.  And I knew all along I would, you know, I was planning on incorporating nutrition, dietary supplements, and some lab testing; that’s what I was doing.  But you know, I guess every feel has to have a trailblazer and I said, “Well, why not me?”  Because there’s not many DPT, there are a few, but not many doing what I do, but what I found is that a lot of times, external musculoskeletal issues are simply internal manifestations–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Of internal problems or external manifestations of internal problems.  So whether it’s a leaky gut, dysbiosis, chronic low-grade infections and inflammation, hormonal levels, adrenal glands, pregnenolone levels, all those play a role in your pain, your perception of pain, and your ability to control inflammation–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So that if you have pain, by definition, you have inflammation.  So you know, we wanna look at your hormones and see whether you are in that anabolic state or reparative state or in that catabolic state where you’re breaking down tissue and so that’s–what I notice is coming out of my doctorate program, I worked at a sports performance facility and you know, I would have people, for example, a frozen shoulder and I would find out, you know, they have low thyroid which is kind of a common one for a frozen shoulder.  And I would have people with, you know, low back pain that would get better when they’re pregnenolone–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Was optimized.  So I started saying, you know, a course for manual therapy is needed to some degree, but you’ll need a lot less of it and less often if you optimize some of the internal factors.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.  And I think, well, I’ve done some active release therapy techniques in my clinic here.  Some of my imbalance chiropractic patients and I noticed that you’re an ART-certified doc as well.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And in ART, a lot of time can speed up the need to even having to do traditional physical therapy because a lot of times those muscles can be shut down because one of the excess inflammation from the diet and the adrenal glands being shot, but also because of all these adhesions and trigger points that are in that muscle belly.  Can you talk more about the ART part?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, so active release technique, you know, on–I hear a lot of times, “Oh, it’s just massage therapy,” but it’s not massage therapy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  No.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  You know, Dr. Leahy developed it and he basically–it’s about creating tension and allowing the different muscular layers to be able to glide relative to one another.  So, you know, the force of symptoms, let’s say you have shoulder pain.  Well, that could be coming from the wrist, some of the muscles in the wrist.  So they really–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Do how to look at the kinetic chain and go over some of the common problems and teach you, you know, the three or four techniques that are best for problem X or problem Y.  And the ART, what I tell people is that x-rays and MRIs show muscular trauma–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  You know, if you have a ligament or a meniscal tear or something, it’s gonna show that.  But it doesn’t show us, like even if we look at an x-ray of your spine, how the vertebrae got there.  So obviously, muscle is attached to the bones, and if we don’t address the muscular imbalances and asymmetries from side to side, you’re creating torsion and your disc don’t like torsion very much.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-huh.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And so, you know, the ART really worked on the microscopic level of trigger point in creating the gliding of the muscles relative to one another and allowed the stabilizing muscle to become more active versus just looking at, “Okay, this is a shoulder problem.”  Let’s, you know, mobilize the humerus.  Well, you have to look at what attaches to the humerus.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, exactly.  That makes so much sense and I know, you doing the physical stuff for so long, you made the connection with the adrenal fatigue, the pregnenolone, all of these things.  These people even what–these work, the soft tissue work or the ART or the PT, they just healed so much faster when you–

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Add in the other stuff, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah.  I mean, I would have someone who came in with frozen shoulder and 2, maybe 3 sessions at the most, they would be healed and tradition physical therapy would keep them 3 times a week for 3 months.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So, you know, they–I found that a lot of DPTs they just fail to put together basic biomechanics and they stop and they don’t stop and look at what factors are affecting this joint–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Or, you know, they have the–okay, if you have low back pain, let’s focus on your low back.  But the first thing I look at if one has low back pain is I look at hip internal rotation and extension.  I look at lat stiffness, the neck, and hyperextended lumbar spine, and I look at thoracic spine mobility.  So, you know, you gotta always look at the joints above and below.  I think that escapes people a lot, you know, since you can have a top down approach where, you know, if you have a protracted chin that can affect your kinetic chain from there or down below, or if you have an overpronation or oversupination, that can affect everything up to the low back and even their neck.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.  Exactly.  I like the holistic approach at looking at the whole kinetic chain in the body, it’s great.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah.  I mean, a common scenario I would see would be, you know, people with knee pain and you know, the physical therapist or chiropractor wasn’t really looking at the knee, it’s just the other end of the femur.  So, you know, I would have people with knee pain working on glutes, because that attaches to the other end of the femur, and so, you know, you–I think you have to almost, if you’re gonna do functional medicine or physical medicine, you know, look at the kinetic chain as a whole.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I agree and I do a lot of applied kinesiology muscle testing where we’ll test the different muscles and how they’re functioning neurologically by resisting force, by resisting a manual muscle test, and we’ll see things just like eating gluten can shut down someone’s glutes.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right, right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, and you see that often and then, “Hey, you know, they have back pain or knee pain and then, hey, is that really caused by gluten potentially shutting down the kinetic chain?”

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right.  Yeah, and I hear all the time, you know, people say, “Oh, well, ART here is no blind study.”  Well, guess what?  Every NFL team has an ART practitioner.  That should tell you everything right there because you’re looking at an organization who’s not resource-constrained and they’re picking someone who is ART-certified to be in the sidelines and travel with the team every game because their players benefit from it, and if the team doesn’t have one, the players seek out one because they notice the difference.  You know, a lot of people combine the ART with Graston–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Which is a little more aggressive.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Or Gua Sha or some of–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Some of those other sound-assisted instrument techniques.  But yeah, I mean any sort of inflammation, you know, can contribute to musculoskeletal pain and I know Dr. Alex Vasquez–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  He talked a lot about, you know, circulating immune complexes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Where you have an antigen whether it’s, you know, pollen or a virus passed to an antibody like an IgM or IgG and it circulates throughout the body, it could deposit in the joints or in the muscles–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And that can be a common cause of musculoskeletal referred pain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.  I agree and it’s interesting because, you know, when you–when you follow the money trail, you know, unless you have a hundred million dollar or a multibillion-dollar, you know, industry behind something, it’s hard to find a whole bunch of studies.  It really is.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It really is difficult and that’s why you have to look at clinical application where, “Hey, you know, what’s happening with your other colleagues?  What are you doing?  What’s working?”  And then spreading the word that way because you’re just not gonna find studies that tell you taking vitamin C at this dose is good or, you know, certain techniques.  I mean, it’s nice to have that but it’s tough because these studies cost a lot of money and if you don’t have a patentable product to then sell afterwards, anyone can sell it and there’s a lot of competition on the open market.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah.  I mean, it really is and a lot of people just, you know, forget that hormones, good health, everything that happens internally can refer externally and I even see that happen in an integrated functional medicine world a lot of times.  “Oh, okay, you have gut issues, here take some digestive enzymes.”  Well, digestive enzymes may not be their deficiency.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  It could be lactobacillus deficiency.  It could be a stomach acid deficiency.  It could be SIBO.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Any of those.  SIBO is a common cause of musculoskeletal pain as well. And, you know, all those things affect the mitochondria which are the batteries of our cells and if you affect the mitochondria, you basically affect every system of the body.  So, I think, you know, if you’re gonna do physical medicine and try to rehab some more and get over aches and pains, you need to look internally just as much as you do externally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I totally agree, and you mentioned the mitochondria, just for all the listeners at home.  That’s the powerhouse of your cell that really generate a lot of energy and the mitochondria loves burning fat.  So can you talk about just, you know, some simple things or tips or tools or supplements that you use to help enhance your patient’s mitochondrias?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, absolutely.  Well, the first thing I do is actually, you know, the common thing to do if you Google the Internet or talk to someone on the street.  They’re gonna say take co-enzyme Q10, take carnitine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And those can be very helpful.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Well, I wanna know at first is what is damaging the mitochondria because they are so susceptible to oxidative stress.  Gonna get a drink of water here, real quick.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, no worries.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So they are susceptible to oxidative stress.  We wanna make sure that person’s glutathione levels and their superoxide dismutase levels are optimal because those two enzymes, they sit in front of the mitochondrial membrane and if there’s a free radical coming or oxidative stress coming, they take the bullet for it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Have a deficiency of glutathione and a lot of people do or the superoxide dismutase enzyme, the mitochondrias are sitting there like sitting ducks and so you can have oxidative stress from blood sugar imbalances.  You can get oxidative stress from, you know, heavy metals.  You can oxidative stress from infections and that’s actually called a microbial mitochondriopathy meaning there’s a microbe causing the mitochondria to become pathogenic and so the first thing I look to is trying to raise the levels of those enzyme which you can do with certain transdermal creams, certain liposomal forms orally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Because I wanna protect the mitochondria from any damage that’s going on.  Then I wanna look downstream and see what causes are creating inflammation.  It could be a latent viral infection.  It could be a stealth bacteria like mycoplasma.  It could be aluminum, mercury–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And lead.  All those can contribute so we wanna make sure that we get those enzymes levels up, that we get out the bad stuff, the metals, heavy and toxic metals, and that we provide–then we can go in and provide the substrates like carnitine and CoQ10, which–I mean you can supplement with those but they’re typically made through a process called methylation, which I know–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Which I know we were gonna talk about–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  A little bit later.  But methylation helps you–if you optimize it, helps you produce more carnitine and CoQ10, and so, you know, instead of having a supplement, you may be able to improve your body’s own function.  So that’s way–one way or a couple of ways of approaching, improving mitochondrial function.  A second major way is basically, I call it, mitochondrial rehabilitation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Cell membrane and so, you know, you probably heard of the supplements, NT Factor Energy, you know, that contain a lot of phospholipids.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Most people know that we have cell membranes but the mitochondria actually have their own in an outer membrane and the phospholipids, they’ve been shown in studies after 6 weeks, there’s been a reduction in fatigue by about 40% in people with chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, myalgia, encephalomyelitis, you know, all of those types of disorders.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then–

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Taking those different supplements support?  Is that what you just mentioned?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  What’s that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Actually you said they–they had an improvement in the energy in a lot of these different conditions and what were the key nutrients in the support?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  It was the NT, specifically the study I’m referencing is on the NT Factor Energy products.  There’s a few companies that make them.  Researched Nutritionals is one, Allergy Research Group is another.  And you take them, you do a loading phase for the first month, which is basically 3 capsules 3 times a day with food.  And then after that it’s 1 capsule 3 times a day with food, and that helps to improve the membrane health.  So if you can combine that along with the glutathione which you need to raise for many other reasons, and the superoxide dismutase, you’re mitochondria are gonna be rockin’ and rollin’.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  You know, a lot of your listeners are probably–and readers probably heard of PQQ.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  You know, that’s another supplement that provides a reducing agent basically to the mitochondria to help produce more ATP.  NAD+ is another supplement.  It’s not commonly sold out there but it is out there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when you said reducing agent, you’re just meaning these products are allowing to add in electrons to this whole entire energy process?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, so they’re adding in–adding electrons.  Okay, and then you mentioned some of the NT Factors stuff and that’s just really all of these phospholipids, right?  The phosphatidylcholine?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, the–sometimes they’ll throw in and I’m not 100% sure behind the reasoning–they’ll throw in some probiotics like lactobacillus.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  The primary components are those phospholipids.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.  So just to break it down for the listeners, we got like our glutathione precursors, right?  NAC or maybe even liposomal glutathione and the sulfur amino acids, we have the SOD.  We have, you know, glutathione and L-carnitine, but also these good fat-soluble compound to help build that cell membrane up to?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Exactly.  Exactly and then I tell people, you know, obviously avoiding exposures as much you can to toxic metals but detoxing metals that you already then I tell people it’s kinda like I never touch anyone for leaky gut.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Because by the time you pay for the test, you could have just treated it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And statistically, most people are gonna have some degree of it, you know, at some point throughout the years.  So I recommend even clients without any symptoms that once or twice a year, they do a gut maintenance protocol.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-huh.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And so, you know, the MTHFR, the glutathione, those things we can talk about those.  Do you wanna go into those now?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  The epigenetic type stuff.  I can give a brief overview of that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.  I’d love to talk about the MTHFR because we know MTHFR is this specific SNP that’s involved in metabolizing folate or if you’re taking crappy supplements, folic acid to folate to activated MTHF folate.  So we know that’s really important because methylation has a lot to do with our genes, detox, energy production.  And also I wanna add that if you’re eating conventional food, especially refined grains that are fortified in folic acid, well, and if you’re one of the 50% of the population, you’re gonna be converting this folic acid into dangerous cancer–potentially cancer-causing metabolite.  So can you talk about, you know, what the MTHFR is, why it’s important, and then what does this actually mean to the everyday person?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, so MTHFR stands for methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  An enzyme.  So anytime, you know, a molecule ends in -ase that tells us it’s an enzyme.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So it’s the enzyme that essentially converts folic acid into methylfolate–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:   Which is the activated usable form by our cells.  It’s a SNP, being a single nucleotide polymorphism.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Mutation.  Mutation would be like Down Syndrome, Trisomy 21.  A SNP means that within our DNA, we have four letters, A, T, C, and G.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  A binds the T, C binds the G.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  If our body happens to put down the wrong letter in the wrong place, that’s known as a SNP and since all of our genes code for enzymes, it’s gonna affect the function of that enzyme.  Does it mean it’s completely dysfunctional?  It depends on which SNP we’re talking about, but for example, MTHFR, one copy usually reduces its function by about 30%.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Copies reduces function by about 65, maybe 70%.  So you still process some folic acid but you have a lot going up in the bloodstream and that’s been shown to lower your natural killer cells–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So it can predispose either cancer and other immune disorders.  There’s actually test you can do for that.  But the MTHFR itself is actually not one reaction, it’s over a hundred something reaction.  It takes place billions of times per second in every cell in the body.  Some of the things that it’s responsible for include the production of glutathione.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  It’s, you know, detox molecule, an antioxidant, it helps with immune function, gut health, thyroid health, it helps protect the mitochondria, and it also is responsible for certain neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So you can have a neurotransmitter imbalances or mood issues that are affected by methylation so, you know, that can be definitely be impacted as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It’s amazing that–

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Myelin coating around nerves.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  During methylation.  So if we’re not methylating then that’s affected.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And our just overall detox capabilities are affected as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So detox, energy production, immune function, a lot of different things, and it’s interesting because all methylation is, is just basically adding a C­–a carbon and 3 hydrogens onto whatever process is happening, correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right, right, exactly.  One carbon atom and 3 hydrogen atoms attached, and you know, we can methylate different substrates in the body.  We can methylate hormones, like estrogen to help them get excreted through the bowels.  We can methylate neurotransmitters and different substrates.  But methylation as a whole is in part responsible for gene balancing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So, you know, if you have enough methyl groups there around your DNA, it “turns off the bad gene, turns on the good genes”.  So–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-huh.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Things are–but genes that we want turned on are things like tumor-suppresor genes so we don’t get cancer.  But if we’re not methylating well, it can lead to those genes being active or not being active in this case.  So there’s many other SNPs that factor into these pathways.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  You know, there’s thousands and thousands, and I try not get bogged in the minutia, the take home message is that, you know, we’re giving you information about potential hiccups in your biochemistry.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Ways to bypass them either through nutrition or supplementation or exercise or lifestyle changes.  And you know, you’re not stuck with that biochemistry if it is aberrant but you know, it can also lead us into directions for further testing.  So, you know, just because someone has MTHFR C677T–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Doesn’t necessarily mean they have high homocysteine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  They can have normal homocysteine, so that gets into whether the genes or SNPs are expressing or not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, just to kinda break things down, we have this MTHFR, this enzyme that’s really important in taking folic acid down into this activated folate form, now how important is taking or consuming B12 along with this activated folate.

Dr. Tim Jackson:   Great question.  You need all the B vitamins, B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, B7–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Methylfolate and B12.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Generally, the way I layer them in is I start with minerals because magnesium and zinc are also co-factors.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Then I layer in B1, B2, B3, those types of vitamins.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Then I layer in lithium orotate because–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Lithium orotate as a trace mineral is needed to transport B12 from the plasma or the serum into the red blood cell.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Okay, so and it’s also very protective for the brain.  Then the next step would be B12 and then finally methylfolate.  As far as B12, some of your other polymorphisms may play a role in determining or deciding on which form is best for you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  You know, methylcobalamin definitely in active form but if you have certain other polymorphisms like the COMT which we won’t talk about too much, but if you have that COMT, you may not tolerate a lot of methylcobalamin.  So I typically start those people on adenosylcobalamin, which you know is as well-known or not seen around as much as but as an active form, it actively supports the mitochondria and that’s without donating too many methyl groups.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  But if someone doesn’t have COMT, you know, it’s perfectly fine to use methyl B12 with the methylfolate, and even some people with COMT, you know, if it’s not expressing then they can tolerate methyl B12.  But you run the risk of–when you overmethylate someone, anxiety attacks, palpitations, things like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.  And one of the supports that I typically do with patients is one, they’re on a really good high-quality multi with activated folate in there, but good high-quality B12 as well.  And then we run organic acid test and we’ll look at FIGLU or formiminoglutamic.  We’ll look at methylmalonic acid and depending where they’re at, we’ll add in typically a sublingual high-quality B12, typically with methyl-hydroxyl and adenosyl combined with the folate.  What’s your take on that with adding the hydroxyl in there?  I don’t think you mentioned that one.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, hydroxy B12 is good.  It’s not an active form.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  But it is a form that helps scavenge nitric oxide–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Which one thing I didn’t mention before is that, if you have a lot of oxidative stress and you give that person B12 methylfolate, you produce peroxynitrite–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  It’s a harmful compound, you don’t wanna do.  So that’s one reason why some people start producing or feel worse when they start taking methylfolate and B12.  But the hydroxy can be good for scavenging the nitric oxide that way.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And it may help somewhat with energy, but the adenosyl and methyl are typically the one, you know, more closely associated with producing and increasing energy production.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s great.  And can you just talk about that methyl trapping?  So we need that B12 for that folate metabolism.  If not, that the folate pools up, right?  And we call that methyl trapping.  Are you familiar with that concept?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, absolutely.  So basically, you know, in a deficiency anemia, the substrates really in the pathway will halt the cycle from moving but especially B12, you have methylfolate groups sitting there waiting to be paired–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  You know, with another methyl group or B12 group, and the B12 is in short supply or you’re taking too much methylfolate in relationship to B12, and then you know, that produces a problem.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So, you know, you need both of them for sure along with the co-factors, you know they’re all important and you know, I think that pretty much kinda sums up the generalities of the methylation cycle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s great and then you are trying to avoid the cyanocobalamin, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, I mean that one is not an activated form, you know, converted into some toxic compounds.  It’s really, you know, from my perspective, there’s really no need to use it–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Much of it is cheap, so I try to tell people, you know, adenosyl, methyl and hydroxyl are the one that you wanna look at and go after.  But the other thing to consider with methylation is that even if you’re on all these methylated B vitamins and the co-factors, if there’s too much lead in your body–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Too much oxidative stress, those things inhibit methylation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So even if you’re taking those supplements, your methylation cycle could still be inhibited–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And the most accurate testing that’s out there for looking at the functionality of the methylation cycle is from Health Diagnostics and Research Institute in Germany.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  It’s quite expensive.  I think around 400 but it looks at red blood cell levels of all the metabolites.  It looks at oxidized versus reduced glutathione, SAM which is S-Adenosyl methionine, SAH S-Adenosyl-L-homocysteine, and that’s the most elaborate test.  Doctor’s Data offers the functional methylation test but it only gives you about half of that many markers.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ah, I see.  I see and do you do organic acid test as well?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, I do.  Sometimes people come to me with them, sometimes I order them.  But yeah, those can be very helpful, too, in looking at mitochondrial dysfunction and mitochondria blocks and, you know, neurotransmitter imbalances as well as GI dysfunction.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.  And just for the listeners, organic acid is nothing more than the metabolic exhaust of all these various systems in the body, whether it’s B vitamins or fatty acids, or dysbiosis like Doc said, fungus, neurotransmitter, so it gives us another window because if we have a 23andMe which is like, you know, this genetic blueprint which is–which is there but then we can look at how it’s actually functioning in a dynamic type of environment with low nutrients or stress or toxins.  We can see how that changes.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s great.  So, wow, this is great because I find a lot of people touch upon methylation but it is very superficial and I think you did a great job, Doc, digging into the individual parts of it.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Well, thank you.  I appreciate that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Great!  And you talked about heavy metals affecting the whole methylation procedure and we know heavy metals are, you know, lead, arsenic, cadmium, mercury, et cetera, aluminum, so how do you test heavy metals in your office?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Well, the provocation test, you know, is the most accurate.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-huh.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  But I get a lot of people who are so sensitive and so toxic that I know if I did the provocation test–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  It’s gonna knock them for loop, because I’ve seen people get, you know, pretty sick from it because they’re detox pathways are closed down and they pull all these metals out of the tissue and then the metals they have nowhere to go, so instead of detoxifying, you’re retoxifying.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  But–so what I try to do first is work on gut health.  You know, when we talk about detoxification, we hear about phase 1 and phase 2, and those are certainly important but there’s also phase 3, which is transport out of the body with OAT, cMOAT, different organic transporters.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And if there’s gut inflammation or dysbiosis–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  That blocks metals from being detoxed through the stool which most people don’t know that most of your heavy metal should–in a healthy body come through the stool.  When there’s inflammation or dysbiosis in the gut, it shifts the stress to the kidneys.  So then the kidneys have to do all the filtering of the metals.  And it also, when phase 3 is shut down, it turns around and slows down phase 2, and then you have a big mess because the compounds coming out of phase 1 are highly reactive.  They’re more reactive than when you started the process and so you have all these highly reactive compounds just sitting around, ready to damage tissue, ready to damage organs, and just create mayhem within the cell.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, and I know this is kind of a controversial topic, but we see it with some patients with vaccine issues especially the aluminum is that if, you know, someone hasn’t had their gut formed in that first 6 months to a year and it’s still somewhat leaky, and we’re removing such a significant percent of maybe these metals via the gut in the digestive tract and it’s not fully formed, this could potentially cause some reabsorption of these metals?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Uh-huh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.  I mean, you know, when you’re–if methylation is not open, glucuronidation which is another phase 3 reaction or assimilation, if your glutathione levels are low and you just kinda pull out the metals with these chelating agents and, you know, you’re not sure where they’re gonna go and mercury is like lipophilic, so it likes to get into the brain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And it’s hard to get out of there.  You know, I’ve been off and on using the Dr. Chris Shade protocol the past few years, where you know he starts with the gut and binds metals in the gut, and then he has a proprietary blend of herbs and nutrients that support phase 1 and phase 2 detox along with vitamin C and liposomal glutathione.  So that’s kinda the way I go about it and I also tell people that, you know, one way of simply detoxing metals is replenishing all your good minerals–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Because metals like mercury bind to the same enzyme sites like zinc.  So if you take zinc and you react to it, you’re probably not reacting to the zinc, maybe you’re reacting to the mercury you kicked off.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right and also selenium is the big one, too, with mercury as well, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, yeah, exactly.  So selenium is important for thyroid health and it helps with the production of glutathione.  It helps, you know, in detoxifying mercury, aluminum, et cetera.  With aluminum, Dr. Chris actually, I think he’s in Oxford, he recommends ortho- salicylic acid which he recommends in mineral water form.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  But you can also get in a form called Biocell and that’s supposed to help lower your aluminum levels, but what people don’t understand a lot of times about metals is that, you know, the study may come out or you may hear on the 6 o’clock news, “This level of mercury is perfectly safe.”  But how many people actually have just that level of mercury?  Hardly any.  And then when you look at that on top of the other metals, they have, one plus one equals ten.  So they’re very synergistic and people don’t realize that these trace amount they think are safe are not actually trace amounts.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.  Right and there’s also that whole idea of the lethal dose.  So how that works is imagine you have a hundred wraps, they increase the level of mercury that it takes to just kill 1 out of 100, so 1% die, and then they do that same thing with lead and they amount that it takes to kill 1%, so 1 out of 100, so 1 dies but then when you gave the–100 new wraps, the 1% dose of the mercury and the 1% dose of the lead, it killed all of them.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  All 100.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right. Exactly.  So yeah, I mean that’s what I tell people, you know, one let’s try to optimize your methylation and glutathione levels.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  We can’t let them in a bubble.  Two, you know, a couple times a year, it may be worth doing a few rounds of chelation–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Or certain products that supports phase 1 and phase 2.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  One thing that confused me earlier on in my career was that I would see people with high heavy metal levels and they would go in for IV therapy.  Their levels wouldn’t drop and I figured out it was most likely two things.  Inflammation that was inhibiting the detox process and that–I mean, that’s probably the main one, it’s inflammation inhibiting the detox process.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  But you know, if you have a lot of inflammation going on, no matter whether it’s coming from a gut issue or–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  A systemic viral issue.  That inflammation can really inhibit the detox process.  And the other thing is if there’s inflammation–the second factor–is if there’s inflammation in the gut, like we talked about with phase 3–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  That can decrease your ability to detoxify metals.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ah, I see.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Most people don’t realize that the gut is really important in terms of detoxing metals.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.  And is it possible that there was just a lot more metals than you first got a window into on the first challenge test?  Is that possible scenario?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, it’s possible.  But I’ve seen people, you know, do multiple tests and–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Multiple rounds and you know, you would think, “Oh, wow, if anything is gonna get rid of this, it’s gonna be this powerful IV.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  But I have a lady that our levels of mercury and lead were really high and she did 3 months of the Quicksilver Scientific products and they’re down to about just 10% of what they were.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow!  That’s great.  Yeah, I take a very similar approach.  I don’t touch metals until the gut is fully working because of so much–because of the reabsorption that can happen and typically I use a combination of the minerals, DMPS, and also binders like citrus pectin or Pecta-Sol or–

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Or algaes and such, so then you get the binders, you get the minerals, and then you get a little bit of chelation compounds, but again, I always–because I’ve had mentors in the past, Dr. Michael Lebowitz, a couple of others that have gotten incredibly sick where they got disabled because of doing chelation therapy.  So it’s something you wanna work with a functional medicine doctor like Tim on.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, absolutely.  I mean, metals, you know, we forget, you know how much dysfunction and mayhem they can cause inside the cell and you know, there’s homeopathic ways to detoxify and I haven’t used many of those, but I mainly use nutrients that support, you know, phase 1, phase 2, and phase 3 and optimizing gut health obviously, and then replenishing your magnesium, your zinc–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Your selenium, your iodine, all those keeping your detox pathways going.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s great.  That’s good and the test that you recommend again, was that the test by Quicksilver?  Was that the porphyrin test?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Quicksilver offers what’s called a Mercury Speciation Test where they look at ethylmercury, methylmercury, and I forget the third one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And it show–it tests blood, urine, and hair I believe and they compare the three.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So I don’t think they really look in the other metals.  I think it’s primarily mercury.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  The provocation test, Doctor’s Data has one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And you know, it looks at all the metals–aluminum, lead, arsenic, tin, mercury, all those things and can give you an idea.  You know, there are people who use hair metal analysis which I’m not an expert on, but you know, I think it can be good to show some ratios.  But I do know, I’ve seen studies where kids on the autism spectrum, we know they’re total body burning mercury is high but hair level is low, so that means they’re not excreting it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I’ve seen that before.  They had that study back in the–in the early 2000s and I know the conventional medicine community came out and said, “Hey, look!  Mercury is not a problem.  Mercury isn’t an issue.”  And they kinda used that as to say that these metals aren’t really driving any autistic-like symptoms, but we know that part of having hair and pushing metals out in the hair is a means of detoxification.  So it kinda fits in because if you can’t detoxify, you may not push it out in the hair, and I know I think when Dr. Boyd Haley repeated that study, they tried doing it via challenge test.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Like they talked about and they saw the metals went to the roof on that.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right, right, exactly.  Yeah, I mean, they set the studies up to kinda, you know, cherry picked that ones that support their argument but, I mean, it’s only common sense that, you know, mercury, especially in kids whose blood brain barrier and nervous system isn’t fully developed yet is damaging and then, you know, people say, “Oh, they took out the thiomersal.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Thiomersal, yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah.  But the bottom line is say I did an aluminum.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Aluminum has been connected to Alzheimer’s, cognitive impairment, immune suppression, a lot of different things, so I’m not really sure that the aluminum is any better.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and I’ll go out there to say that taking a hepatitis B vaccine which is the first vaccine given within the couple hours of living or life for the baby–

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It’s a total useless vaccine for anyone in the first world country.  The vaccine policies from hepatitis B, they all came from third world countries where there was poverty and drugs and prostitution, and any women that’s pregnant, they’re already having full spectrum STD panels before they even get pregnant or while they’re pregnant.  So to give your baby a Hep B vaccination for basically a sexually transmitted disease is pretty useless and is just coming with met–first couple hours of birth and it can really put a big stress on the body.  So if gonna look at anything, definitely look at that Hep B vaccine.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right, absolutely.  Yeah and it can be, you know, it’s a threshold concept.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  You know, you can have gut infection.  You can have some systemic viral issues.  You can have methylation deficiency and then that vaccine is the last stressor that kinda puts you over from subclinical to clinical where you know, before you were functioning, you had these stresses that you probably weren’t aware of and then this last one kinda puts you over the edge.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I think that’s–I think what you said is you’re looking at like the MTHFR, you’re looking at COMT, you’re looking at the mother’s toxic burden, you’re looking at their gut health, and you gotta look at everything in conjunction.  You can’t just look at one factor like a vaccine or one factor.  You gotta look at everything in conjunction before you make that decision.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right, right.  Exactly and it’s all about timing.  I mean, as cliché as it sounds, I tell people it’s about–it’s kinda like dating.  It’s all about timing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Those people need supplements.  It’s not that they don’t need certain supplements but it’s all about the timing and the dosage and the combination when it’s taken, et cetera.  Because you know, if we just went in and someone is having a bowel movement once a week and we gave them IV chelation, they’re gonna get really sick.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Because they’re just redistributing, retoxifying the metals in their body, and that’s obviously not good and, you know, like I said before, too.  The gut health is just so important because if they’re stressed in the large or small intestines, then the workload is kinda shifted to the kidney and that’s one reason why you see such abnormal, glomerular filtration rate and things like that these days.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, that makes about–that’s makes so much sense.  So, Doc, would you agree that the genetics loads the gun and the environment pulls the trigger?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, yeah.  I absolutely would and some of the research I’ve read and I’m not really sure how they did this out because it’s been a while since I’ve read it, but PTSD is one example of where methylation, methylated gene got turned off–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Or you know, the methylation reactions were undone or prohibited.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And that can last up to 4 generations.  So even though you’re not passing on necessarily a physical SNP all the time, the happenings of what you experience, whether it’s, you know, poverty or rape, or–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  That can last up to 4 generations, so there’s an transgenerational effect and the genetics definitely loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger, but we also have to remember that–I read this study I think in 2012 and they looked at 8 or 9 different cities in the US, and the average on vocal chord between 200 and 250–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Odd.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Found carcinogens.  So we have those known carcinogens on top of some viral infections that the mother probably had she didn’t know she passed on combined with vaccine, combined with overuse of antibiotics, and then we wonder why kids are sick.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow. Wow!  So we’re gonna just take this and we’re gonna go right into a kind of emulating day Dave Asprey and how he ends his podcast shows and I’m gonna ask but you can’t say the exact same 3 things that you said on his show, but I wanna take that kinda what we just talked about here and really bring it in because people are like listening to this–they’re probably like overwhelmed like, “What the hell do I do now?”

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So looking at all the things, what are the three most powerful things based on what we just talked about, that someone could do right now that’s actionable to help improve these–these items?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  As far as just overall health or methylation specifically or just–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Let’s put it more towards methylation specifically.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Methylation specifically, one thing they can do is take a broad blend of antioxidants.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Anything from proanthocyanidins.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  You know, vitamin C, glutathione, boswellia, any of those antioxidants because the more we can lower the oxidative stress, the better the methylation cycle will work.  And we also wanna lower it because we don’t wanna give B12 and methylfolate, and have it produce peroxynitrite which is a harmful compound.  So starting with that, I would say would be the first thing for methylation.  The second thing would be–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  To correct your environment around you.  So lower EMS, you know, try to hardwire into your computer–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Keep your phone in your pocket or if you’re a woman, don’t keep it near in your purse or don’t keep it in your bra or anything like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And try to keep all phones and electronics, you know, away from your bed at night, and unplug the Wi-Fi at night, and make sure you’re breathing clean air.  You have your house tested for mold because ultimately the SNPs technically aren’t the problem but this information that gets fed to them whether it’s from metals or viruses or mold tells them to turn on or turn off.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  So if we can clean up the environment and the environmental signals that we send to the gene, then there will be less “bad genes” being expressed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s great.  So that was one, two, and three, correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  What’s that?  You went out for a second.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, I’m sorry.  So gave number 1, 2, and 3, right?  We did 3 right there.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Great, great.  So I think it was like EMF, clean environment, I think a lot of the high quality activated Bs as well in that first part in the minerals.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Great.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then one last question here.  I’ve taken on this question trying to–I’m inspired from Mike Mutzel’s podcast, High Intensity Health, but he ends by saying, by asking the interviewee here.  If you were stuck on a desert island and you only could have 1 herb with you, what herb would you want with you?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Probably cordyceps.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ah! What’s kind of the–

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Because–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But yeah, I love cordyceps.  Yeah, okay.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s great for energy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  But it also has great effects on the immune function.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  And overall endurance.  I mean, I think radiola is also great but I’m not sure how much of an effect it has on immune function, probably has some, but I would say cordyceps.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Great!  Awesome!  Well, thanks Dr. Tim Jackson.  And can you just give out here, your info, Facebook, your website where all of the listeners can find you at?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Yeah, my website is  So  My email is all lowercase  So  And Facebook is /healyourbody is my professional page on there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s great and you’re able to do Skype consults, so people are–even abroad or outside of the country or somewhere, you know, outside of North Carolina where you’re located, they can still work with you, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Absolutely, yeah.  So I do different consults, have some clients in I think 14 foreign countries and in every state now.  You know, don’t let distance be a deterrent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s great.  Awesome, Dr. Tim!  Is there any–anything else that you wanna leave our listeners here with before we go?

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Nah, I think we covered a lot, you know.  I think hopefully, you know, they took away the actionable tips and didn’t overwhelm them.  If you have any questions, you know, feel free to email me if something didn’t make sense that I said.  Would be happy to answer.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And we’re gonna have a full transcription of the podcast over here at as well as which will just link over.  So feel free, you can get the transcription and read it through.  I’m gonna read it through a couple of times because Dr. Tim dropped some serious knowledge bombs and I’m looking forward to getting that fully assimilated.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Absolutely, that sounds great.  I look forward to it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Alright, thanks so much, Dr. Tim.  We appreciate it.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Alright, take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bye now.

Dr. Tim Jackson:  Buh-bye.



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