The Mold Gut Connection – How Your Digestive Issue Maybe Caused by Mold Toxins | Podcast #371

If you’ve encountered mold from a water-damaged building or contaminated foods, you’ve likely encountered mycotoxins—toxic byproducts of mold. They’re common environmental toxins, and they have adverse effects on many body systems, including the gastrointestinal tract.

While you’ve probably heard about other symptoms that can follow mold exposure, Dr. J and Evan discuss that mycotoxins can also cause severe problems for your gut. They also talk about how mycotoxins impact gut health and the microbiota and what you can do to help restore your gut health once you are exposed to mold.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

0:00 – Introduction
1:57 – Mycotoxins
10:16 – Functional Medicine Approach
13:54 – Dopamine Mechanis
15:20 – Mold Inhalation Effects

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we are live, It’s Dr. J here in the house with Evan Brand. Today’s topic is gonna be wonderful for the podcast. We’re gonna be talking about the mold-gut connection and how your digestive issues may be exacerbated by mold toxins, so great topic here Evan, personally been affected by himself and we see lots of patients all the time with these issues so let’s dive in. Evan, how are we doing today man?

Evan Brand: Yeah man, doing really well, and a lot of people have been to naturopaths, they’ve been the functional medicine people they’ve been a conventional doctor, they’ve been treated for SIBO and SIFO, whether it’s Rifaximin or natural SIBO protocols, maybe they’ve done SIBO diets or some of these rotational food diets and that sort of things, maybe they’ve tried berberine, oregano, garlic, and maybe they’ve made some progress, but then they’re still stick, they’re still suck, I’m gonna mix up my words, they’re stuck  and sick so that’s a bad combination of essays and this is likely due to a mold toxin problem because I’ve seen it too many times and I suffered on my own and even the labs now tell us they give us a cookie-cutter report but that cookie-cutter report nonetheless is still valuable because even the lab has painted the connection between mycotoxins which are essentially mold farts that you breathe in, in a water damage building and the connection to certain bacterial overgrowth, specifically Clostridia but also Candida and the mechanism of why this is so damaging especially to young children is because we know that Clostridia bacteria screw up the organic acid levels called HPHPA and this affects levels of neurotransmitters, so when you get these children, they have behavioral issues, they may be diagnosed with something like PANS, which is a Pediatric Acute Neuropsychiatric Syndrome. These kids usually have sensory problems, food sensitivity, skin issues, histamine problems, allergies, maybe they’re biting children, maybe they’re angry or irritable, this can all be traced back due to this toxicity.

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: 100%. So that’s quite interesting, now you talked about mycotoxins essentially being mold fart, so essentially the mold off-gasses, right? And, your different kinds of mold, right? It could be Penicillium, it could be Aspergillus, right? It could be the black mold, Stachybotrys, these types of things and then they produce various mycotoxins and when we do different tests, like plate testing on homes, supposedly each mold or so can produce about 300 different mycotoxins, whether it’s Ochratoxins, or aluminum is that correct?

Evan Brand: Yeah, which is crazy because we can only test for a very, very small amount on the urine so really, we’re trying to just look for some evidence of this bonfire, we’re looking for the ashes, Oh my god, there must have been a fire here, this big mold exposure, we’re only looking at the tip of the iceberg so yeah, you’re right. Our testing is good but it’s still very primitive compared to the amounts of mycotoxins that are being produced.  

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Yeah.  And the type of organic acid testing that we’re doing is on the great plains. We’ll look at some of the organic acid compounds that correlate with, like Aspergillus or different mold toxins. Is that correct? What are those big mycotox? What are the big organic acids again? 

Evan Brand: So, it’s all on paper. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Membranes

Evan Brand: Yeah. So, you’ll see oxoglutaric. You’ll see citric acid can be high in a fungal overgrowth too so it’s all page 1. Oxaglutaric, you got hydroxybenzoic which is related to bacteria. I could pull up an O but in general it’s just page one. It’s typically numbers 1 through 18. If you see any big red flags on that either a combination of a bacterial overgrowth specifically a clustering problem and or Candida or fungal colonization and the lab indicates that so tartaric acid would also be on there, carboxy citric acid is also on there. So, in parenthesis, you’ll see under these organic acids now which is great because this has improved over the years that you and I’ve been running these labs. It now says Aspergillus so on number 6, which is tartaric acid under number six, it’ll now say Aspergillus. And you’ll know if that’s elevated, you’re colonized for Aspergillus which means that you’ve now been exposed to a couple situations could have happened either you had a large enough amount of mold, you were exposed to mold, long enough or your immune system was weak enough where now you become a mold factory. So, you can be a mold reservoir, more specifically a mycotoxin reservoir where you just have this exposure at the moldy hotel in Mexico and then you come back home and you’re sick or if you were weak enough, now you’re growing mold. Even if you move to the desert to avoid mold, you stay sick because you’ve got that colonization so with 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Ionization, that’s happening.      

Evan Brand: Yeah. So, you can prove that which is very important because now that would justify the use of herbal antifungals to try to remedy this situation. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: That makes sense. Let me go pull up one of my old tests. Let me see if I can find it. Hold on. 

Evan Brand: Now, the conventional treatment is typically antifungal medications that are gonna knock this out. But, as you and I with our functional practice, we don’t like to use that. So, number 4 would be classified as the fungal, the ferran-2,5-tricarboxylic, you’ve that Ferran carbonyl glycine. Yeah. So, number six. Yeah. So, this is old enough where they didn’t have the molds but on the new ones in parentheses 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Let me say Aspergillus. It is primarily Aspergillus for all three of these. 

Evan Brand: Yeah, and the number nine tricarboxylic is Fusarium.  

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Fusarium. Yep.  And then Arabinose and Tartaric are also correlated with yeast overgrowth. This test here for instance, I did a great plane and a Genova test at the same time and this one actually came back much higher on the Arabino side than the great plains. then the Genova tested. So, it’s interesting you know different samples and such. But yeah, this one Arabinose is strongly correlated with Candida but then 

Evan Brand: I just ran my own, I’ve got Candida right now too so I’m on a protocol, right? Now, I just run. Yeah. I showed up with Candida and I want people to know because you were a speaker on the event. It was called the Candida summit which I ran like  five years ago and you know we had like 30 people talking about it and I could look back but I tell you I don’t think anybody had made the connection here which was the mold Candida connection back then and now what I’m finding is basically you’re just playing whack-a-mole with Candida until the mold’s gone meaning you may rotate through various rounds of antifungals but out the back door, you’ve got to be using the appropriate binders to pull out the mycotoxins so if you’re just beating Candida down and it keeps coming back. It’s probably the mold, not the Candida that you need to be after. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Yeah. And, that’s where it’s good to run a test like this. Also, maybe a urinary mycotoxin test or just make sure your environment’s good because I always tell patients if the environment’s not good and you’re having reoccurring issues then you’re just not getting to the root cause. So, the first thing is to isolate the environment. Make sure the environment, your home, your apartment wherever you’re living run a high-quality mold plate test on there. We’ll put links down below where you guys can access the plate testing.  Isolate that, right? Make sure there’s no water damage or if there’s been leaks. Make sure it’s been addressed and dealt with. Make sure that’s dialed then the second thing is you can run a test like an organic acid test with your functional medicine provider. See if there’s any colonization. And, it that’s chronic, yo can get to the root on that and then you can always run urinary mold where you’re looking at mycotoxins coming out in the urine that can also be helpful but typically if this is good and there’s nothing at the home then you’re probably in pretty good shape and it’s probably more of an acute kind of dysbiosis thing probably from poor diet, poor digestion other bugs, other infections, etc. 

Evan Brand: Yeah. And the cool thing is that you can kill two birds with one stone or even three birds with one stone and what I mean by that is let’s say you run that oh and you showed the elevated Arabinose, you know, there’s a Candida problem but if we see tartaric above that’s high and then down below, we see some of the bacterial overgrowth markers, the blends that you and I formulate and have, we might be able to kill bacterial overgrowth, fungal overgrowth and a Candida problem. All in one fell swoop and that’s incredible and you know your gastroenterologist or even your mold doctor is likely not gonna be able to do that. They may come in specifically with itraconazole or fluconazole or nystatin. But as you know, we’re facing this big problem of antifungal resistance just like we’re finding with antibiotic resistance and so now, you’ve got these very virulent strains which are difficult to kill with conventional medications. You and I have talked about this before but the long story short of it is all the different alkaloids and terpenes and beneficial nutrients in the plants, those don’t have this resistance problem. And if you’re mixing this herb and that herb, it’s not one plus one equals two, it’s one plus one equals ten. You get the synergistic effect. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Yeah. You see the same thing with addressing bacteria and other bigger bugs and berberines and Artemisia Wormwoods have synergistic effects. Also, the fact that you get a lot of antioxidants in a lot of these herbs. And so, especially if they’re high-quality, you get a lot of antioxidant support because when you start killing bugs, it’s a lot of oxidative stress that’s happening. And then, when you provide like an antifungal like Diflucan or an Amphotericin or a nystatin or a ketoconazole, obviously, there’s no antioxidants in those drugs and so you’re gonna have a lot of oxidative stress so it’s nice to have a blend different herb in there. One, to prevent the resistance. And then, also, people have yeast issues and a lot of times they have bacterial bugs as well and efflux pumps are a big thing that a lot of bacteria and bugs use to kind of protect themselves. So, I cannot say, like bacteria is like a sinking canoe, right? and essentially, you poke holes in that canoe with a lot of the herbals and think of the efflux pumps as the person in the canoe, baling water, right? So, they try to keep on bailing water, bailing water, so they don’t sink, right? And so, think of the herbals when you inhibit the efflux pumps whether it’s a ginger or different antimicrobials, it’s like taking the buckets away from the bacteria that’s bailing water and allows then to sink that allows them to effectively be destroyed that along with addressing biofilms too. 

Evan Brand: Yeah. That’s awesome and the cool part too is you can minimize the die off if you’re doing this right. You know a lot of people when they hear these conversations, they get afraid. They go oh my God, Candida, mold, bacteria, parasites, worms like oh my God, this is a lot of stuff in me. I want it out of me but now I’m afraid. Am I going to feel worse before I feel better and the answer is if you do it properly that should be minimal to a nonexistent problem? I think you and I have refined our protocol so much over the years now that we have these tools and these other therapies in place that are standalone products but we often add those in or if we see that we hit a roadblock or a big bump in the road like a die off, we can change dosing. We can rotate. We can add in other support. We’re always talking about liver and gallbladder and binders and hydration and biofilms. These other pieces, these other variables, these are the make-or-break things for some people. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: 100%. And when people kind of want to go after the gut, we live in an antibiotic like kill, kill, kill generation so people tend to, when they find out they have an issue, they want to go kill, kill, kill and that can be very stressful in the body so it’s always very important to calm down the inflammation, get the immune system stronger, get the hormones that help with anabolic metabolism which is healing, recovering, anti-inflammatory support that kind of sets the table because the more stressed and inflamed you are, your lymphatic system, your detoxification system, your immune system won’t work as good and plus people forget your detoxification system, right? The cytochrome p450 oxidized pathways, especially the phase two pathways, they’re gonna run off of a lot of sulfur-based amino acids and so if we don’t have great digestion and we’re not eating you know good healthy animal protein or good healthy plant cruciferous vegetables. If we can’t tolerate them, we can’t break them down. May not have a lot of those sulfur building blocks to run those phase two pathways and so that’s why kind of getting the deck set so to speak so we can really hit phase two better just not with support but just getting digestion working better and a good diet working better sets the table and allows us to effectively kill so much better.

Evan Brand: Yeah and I know we’ve talked about a lot in a short amount of time, we’ve gone fast so listen back as needed but I want people to understand the connection because of the title of this episode, I want people to understand the mold-gut connection. So, the connection is the following: the mycotoxins weaken the immune system and allow the opportunistic bacterial overgrowth to thrive along with the Candida. So, if you’re working upstream at the SIBO-SIFO situation but you’ve got an underlying mycotoxin problem, you’ve got to address that if you fully wanna get better. The other mechanism of the mycotoxins is a couple. Number one is they damage the microbiome so we know specifically that mycotoxins do the same thing as, like food allergens, they disrupt the gut barrier and create intestinal permeability. So, that’s another reason you want to pull those out of the circulation by using specific binders based on your labs. And then the other mechanism too is we know mycotoxins affect the brain chemistry and specifically lower dopamine so when you get into pain signaling, you get into motivation and mood and just your overall vitality. If your brain chemistry is affected, we can also measure that but it could be directly attributed to the toxin for example in like rat studies when they inject them with mycotoxins or expose them to mold toxin, the dopamine levels crash. So now, all of a sudden, you’ve got this brain chemistry piece to address too, now people have heightened pain sensitivity, they’re depressed. They may be just more flat with their life. Once again, they go to their psychiatrist. They’re not gonna bring up mold toxicity, they’re putting them on an antidepressant medication. They’re never gonna say, “hey, oh your basement is flooded, that’s why you’re depressed and anxious and you have diarrhea”. So, the connection of the gut symptoms too, the diarrhea, any type of bloating, burping, digestive pain especially in children. Children don’t use the same language as adults. So, if your child is complaining about stomach pain that could be one clue that there’s something related. That was my issue for my daughter, Summer. She was complaining of tummy aches so we did run stool on her. She did have H. pylori when she was two. We tested real high. Maybe I gave it to her by sharing water bottles or something but either way, we took care of that and then stomach pain was continuing that was when we had got exposed to mold. Luckily, I got her on binders. Now, she’s in a better place. So, I’ve seen it unfortunately with my own kids and it’s stressful to see your kids suffer but it’s a good lesson. It’s a good learning lesson that your children are not crazy and if your kids are complaining of a chronic issue like this with pain, you know, consider this as a possibility especially if you as the mother are toxic because the toxins go through the placenta and they also go through breastmilk. So, if you have your own digestive skin, whatever problems, mood problems in your kid, has similar issues as you, well, it could be the generational passing of toxins. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: So, let’s go over that mechanism one more time with dopamine. So, obviously dopamine is a neurotransmitter and when we’re chronically stressed, physical, chemical or emotional, dopamine can go downstream and get converted into adrenaline which kind of helps manage the acute stress response. Is it just a fact that the mold is inflammatory and creating a stress response and activating the sympathetic nervous system that the dopamine is being taken and depleted downstream or is there something else? I want to make sure I get that mechanism hammered down.       

Evan Brand: I don’t know. Type in rat dopamine, mold or rat dopamine, mycotoxin. See if you can find it. There were several papers on this. I don’t know if they discussed the mechanism in it or not. My assumption would be that it’s multifactorial. I think the big mechanism would be that the mycotoxins affecting the gut barrier then affecting nutrient absorption then there’s likely less amino acid conversion to dopamine. So, I’m thinking, it’s more of a malabsorption problem but also we know that ochratoxin for example damages

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Like malabsorption, like it’s affecting the absorption of protein in the gut? 

Evan Brand: Yeah. I think that’s one mechanism. I think the other mechanism would be direct brain damage. We know that okra toxin for example damages the cerebellum. We know that the Verrucarin and the Stachybotrys mycotoxins affect the brain and the prefrontal cortex which impairs, like your ability to think clearly. So, I think it’s both. I think it’s the gut damage and I think it’s the direct brain damage too. I am going to pull it up here. Can you see it on screen?  

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Yep. 

Evan Brand: Let me make it bigger on my side here. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Yeah. So many mycotoxins, trichothecenes. We test that in some of the mycotoxin tests. Yeah. Induced neuronal cell apoptosis so some of that could be you’re just causing the cells in the brain and especially in the substantia nigra of the midbrain. That’s where dopamine cells are being produced. Some of it could be apoptosis that means programmed cell death and or inflammation in the olfactory epithelium.

Evan Brand: Interesting.

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: So, it seems to be a neurodegenerative and then look it says it caught ochratoxin A causes acute depletion of dopamine and its metabolites. 

Evan Brand: Look at that. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: So, I wonder if that’s a, it sounds like it’s possibly a stress response, right? Because dopamine can, tends to go downstream to adrenaline. It could be almost like an autoimmune response because you’re having apoptosis. This is neuronal cell death, program cell death. This is part of the reason why apoptosis is important, right? Because if you don’t have good immune function, this is how cancer forms, right? Your immune system helps program cells to die when they need to die. This is apoptosis but if you can’t do that then cells can overgrow hence you have a tumor, right? And so, this is actually happening to unhealthy or the very healthy tissue that you need to be functionally healthy that produces dopamine in the midbrain. So very interesting. 

Evan Brand: Yeah. Talking about the hippocampus too, we know that hippocampus, I’ve got two of them. Remember, that’s why a lot of people have brain fog problems and also I would say that short-term to long-term conversion is impaired.

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Can you see this one here? The mold inhalation one 

Evan Brand: I’m just seeing that you’re highlighted on the hippocampus word for now.  

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Let me switch back to the other one here. This is mold inhalation. This is interesting. Let’s go pull this up. All tight. Mold inhalation causes innate immune activation, neural cognitive and emotional dysfunction.

Evan Brand: So, this is pretty new. July 2020 paper here so relative. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Yeah. Yeah. So, the ability of mold to cause such symptoms is controversial since no published research has examined the effects of controlled mold exposure on the brain. Patient symptoms following mold exposure are indistinguishable from those caused by innate immune activation by bacterial or viral exposure. Interesting. So, in this study here they added in. See here. Toxic and nontoxic mold stimuli would cause innate immune activation with concomitant neural effects and cognitive and emotional behaviors. We internationally administered intact stachybotrys. This is black mold extracted non-toxic stachybotrys spores and a saline vehicle to mice.  

Evan Brand: You don’t want to be that mouse. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Wow. No. As predicted, intact spores increase interleukin 1 beta, immune reactivity in the hippocampus both spore types decrease neurogenesis. This is forming new neurons in the brain and causing striking contextual memory deficits in young mice while decreasing pain thresholds. So, this is another word saying, causing more pain in the body. So, if you have mold exposure, joint pain could happen, right? And enhancing auditory acute memory in older mice. Nontoxic anxiety. Yeah. Also increase anxiety like behavior. Levels of hippocampal immune function correlated with decreased neurogenesis that’s creating new neurons in the brain. Contextual memory deficits, right? Obviously, less memory and or enhance auditory cued feared memory. I wonder what that means. Maybe it’s just like, uh, you’re more sensitive to external stimuli.    

Evan Brand: I read that. Yeah. I read that as sound sensitivity which is yeah part of the toxin and light sensitivity too so people will often have to wear sunglasses even when it’s not very bright. You and I talked about that in the context of adrenals years ago but that’s also a mold toxin thing. 

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Yep. And an immune activation may explain how both toxic mold and nontoxic mold, skeletal elements cause cognitive and emotional decline. So, it’s really important. We don’t wanna be in an area where there’s a bunch of mold toxins and we can do a whole other podcast on how to mitigate mold toxins as a whole. I mean, of course, get your home tested. That’s the first thing. If you have water damage, make sure it’s mitigated by a professional right away because mold starts to form when sitting water in as little as two days. Got to make sure that’s under control and then if you’re on the fence, get yourself tested, right? We’ll run an organic acid test. Maybe run a urinary mycotoxin test and see what your actual load is but again one of the big telltale cue signs is you know, get your home. If there’s mold there and you start feeling significantly better and you go back, you notice an increase and definitely get your internal mold tested as well via urine. 

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well. I know we got to wrap this thing up. We got calls to get to but I hope this is helpful for people. We can always get geekier and dive deeper and go longer but I think you guys get the gesture, the connection of the brain toxicity, the gut damage. There’s a mitochondrial element with the chronic fatigue piece. So, if you are suffering from any chronic issue whether it’s mood like depression, anxiety, energy problems like chronic fatigue, low libido, poor erectile function, cold hands, cold feet, increased light sensitivity, blurry vision could be other things but this is a big smoking gun and all of us are inside way too much. We’re not outside like the Amish are all day. They might have moldy homes but they’re not breathing it in the majority of time. They’re outside in fresh air where the toxins are diluted. So, us with our indoor lifestyle as modern humans, we’re at more risk of this stuff and our buckets are already full due to pesticides and other toxicity in the environment so this is a really, it’s an epidemic problem, maybe the biggest one.

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: And not everyone is as genetically sensitive, right? Some people, they go into a moldy area. They get brain fog, right away. Some people do fine. Either way, it’s definitely a stressor in the stress bucket and if you know it’s there, you definitely wanna pull it out because it’s gonna help give you more resiliency and more adaptability. Great podcast today Evan. Everyone listening on the audio version, we pulled up some studies and some lab tests on the video version. We’ll put the link down below so you can see the video version. We’ll put some links to some of the labs and the products that we talked about today so you guys can take a look at those. Evan, great chatting with you. Head over to to reach out to Evan via functional medicine nutritional support worldwide as well as, Dr. J myself at for me myself. We are here to help and support you guys wherever you are. Have a phenomenal day everyone.  

Evan Brand: Take it easy. Bye-bye.

Dr. Justine Marchegiani: Take care. Bye now. 

The Top Binders to Help Detox From Mycotoxins and Mold | Podcast #337

Different binders have affinities for various toxins based on the net charge and other molecular bonds. One commonly used binder is Chlorella – a living organism that has evolved to bind only to toxic metals, not essential minerals. Because of this, it can be used long-term with no risk of nutritional deficiency over time; Charcoal – a broad-spectrum binder that will bind a little bit of everything. It means it will bind toxins, as well as vitamins and minerals. So it is suitable for acute situations, not long-term; Humic and Fulvic Acids are made of decomposed plant matter, essentially dirt. They have been shown to detox glyphosate.

The binder that suits someone can also differ significantly based on the specific load of toxin. What works well for someone can also change during different phases of treatment, especially when the root cause is identified and fixed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

1:29  How to Eliminate Molds in Our Body

7:36  Probiotics

11:05 Mycotoxins

17:06 SIBO, Candida on Mycotoxins

22:55 Better Bowels

25:58 Different Binders

This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is itune-1.png


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We are live. It’s Dr. J here in the house with Evan Brand really excited about today’s topic. We’ve been talking about binders a little bit here recently. And we’re going to be going into the top binders to help and improve mold toxicity and help kind of help your body get rid of mold in a safe, meaningful way. Evan, how you doing today, man? 

Evan Brand: Hey, doing well, always excited to dive in with you here. Let’s just drop the bomb right out of the gate here. Mold is epidemic. I mean, you saw several podcasts you and I’ve done together on mold, I got exposed my levels of ochratoxin were off the chart, I had a ton of symptoms. We took the family and lived in a hotel temporarily to escape until we could find a new plan, I had to get rid of a lot of clothes that were contaminated. I even tried doing some special laundry detergent we use and couldn’t save some of my clothes. So I know firsthand that this can be a huge problem for people. And it can be frightening because conventional doctors, which we hear this all the time during consultation, they just don’t really have a clue about this. And if you go to the emergency room with dizziness and shortness of breath and blood pressure issues and hives and skin reactions and food sensitivities and all these other what made to some people be crazy symptoms, you’re just going to get like an anti anxiety medication and you get sent home. And that’s where people start to question their sanity. So I hope that we can provide some sanity today and then also provide some actions, you know, action strategies of how to get this crap out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. So the first off is how do we eliminate mold from our body anyway, so we have a couple of reasonable means that detoxification, the big ones that we’re pushing are going to be the bile slash tool, because your liver and your gallbladder make bile, your gallbladder stores that and concentrates it and then we excrete that one to help break down fat, then some of that is going to be captured in the store and eliminated the the store. Some is going to be out the urine, right and a lot of Mold Testing, if we’re testing someone, we’re going to be testing via mold in their urine. So we’re actually using urine as a way to assess mold excretion and mold levels. So the guts, stool and urine slash kidneys are going to be the biggest ways. We have some other ancillary ways we may be pushing and provoking such as using sauna or infrared therapy, which we’re using the skin and the sweat to kind of excrete some of these things. Obviously, if you’re a pregnant Mom, you may even be using breast milk. That’s why it’s important to to really get yourself healthy. So we’re limiting the baby’s exposure to mold via breast milk. So those are kind of some of the big ways and means the body is going to eliminate mold. Now, first thing out of the gate, I’m not a huge fan of jumping on and going after mold right away. Unless we have some type of acute exposure, where we know we’re in an environment where mold is present where we can visually see it. We have very abnormal high amounts of mold via testing. We know there was a major flood or some area and we weren’t able to remediate it. So typically, I don’t love to go after it right away partly because healthy gut function is going to be one of the major ways that we detoxify from mold. So we know just based on the literature, that gallbladder function, good bowel motility, and good stool motility helps us eliminate a lot of mold. We know that because we’re contracting our gallbladder, we’re eliminating a lot of mold via bile synthesis and injection and then having healthy BM so just by having your gut on track, we’re going to be eliminating lots of mold. And if we look at the different types of mold that we can kill it and pull out of our body, probiotics have effects on detoxifying nearly all mold toxins. Probiotics, according to literature, help us detoxify aflatoxin, gliotoxin stir riego matto system as your Alan own and the Atan B and citrinin. These are all different mold toxins, mycotoxins most of them are going to be eliminated with probiotics. Now what does that mean? That means out of the gate if you have healthy The best way to detoxify mold is having good healthy gut function and good healthy bacterial balance balance. So if we have SIBO bacterial overgrowth, gut infections that are throwing off healthy bacteria balance in our gut, that’s going to be one of the major ways that we can kill ate mold is having good healthy bacteria balance and also having good healthy biliary function and good healthy motility. So if we don’t have enzyme acid, bile salt production, are probably going to be slower motility. If we don’t have good bacteria balance with healthy good levels of bacteria too bad we’re probably not going to be able to kill it more efficiently as well. So probiotics are like I think the home run key later that most people don’t think of right we think of like clays and charcoal and and medications like coolest army but we forget about the probiotics and how good healthy gut function plays such a big role.

Evan Brand: Yeah, this is crazy because you know when I first got exposed You and I were Actively researching and looking into the literature on this and it kind of felt a little overwhelming because it’s like, well, crap. Now we got to work all these other things into the protocol. But now with the more and more research coming out on these specific strains, like you mentioned probiotics, but we’ll also talk about something that we sell in market as a probiotic, but technically is a beneficial yeast saccharomyces. This has been shown to bind to aflatoxin, also okra toxin and zero genome, and glio toxin. So this is amazing because you and I’ve been using saccharomyces for years. And now all of a sudden, here we are, we didn’t even really know this. We’ve been detoxing mold the whole time as a side effect of doing these Gup protocols with people. It’s really beautiful.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And this is why I tell people, if you go after the foundational systems in functional medicine, and not necessarily worry about all the symptoms downstream, you’re going to hit and help so many other areas of the body. And it’s kind of like bowling, right? If you just focus on hitting that first pin square, you’re going to knock down a lot of other pins in the second row, right? Same kind of thing with functional medicine. If you hit the foundational pins, right, good digestion, good solid anti inflammatory diet, good motility, good anti inflammatory support, reasonably healthy, balanced adrenal, thyroid, female or male hormones that plays such a major role on immune function. detoxification, elimination plays such a huge role, and you can miss the crazy nuanced mole protocol, and still help people get better. Now, there’s people that are going to still need additional mold support outside of this right. And of course, the more genetically prone You are right, there are certain people that have this kind of Ginny’s certain genetic markers that make them more mold sensitive, okay. And then, of course, the levels of mold being in a mold environment longer living in that basement that’s moldy without the dehumidifier and the sub pump, living in that damaged home, living in that flood damaged environment, these things, the leaky roof, chronically, it can definitely accumulate in your system. And even someone that’s not that genetically sensitive. If those mold levels increase above and beyond for so long, you may eventually become sensitive. So we have to look at the environment and look at the levels and make sure we’re trying to fix that environment first, but it’s over the top, we got to really get that environment fixed. And that’s why it’s nice to be able to do Mold Testing that looks at your home first. And so we have some testing that we use various labs that use play testing, that can be very helpful, we’re going to put links down below for the specific test that we use. So if you guys want to do some deeper testing, feel free, click the link down below. Any comments on that?

Evan Brand: Yeah, I just wanted to hit back on the probiotics, one of the mechanisms because I think this is pretty cool. And once again, this is just makes me feel better about the gut work we’ve been doing with people so many times, because like I said, we’ve been fixing things with mold, not even truly knowing it. So one of the mechanisms of some of these beneficial bacteria is that it actually up regulates glutathione s transferase. So here we are coming in now we’ll supplement glutathione, but you’re actually increasing Bluetooth ion just by taking some of these beneficial strain. So that is just absolutely amazing. And it’s funny because we focus so much on the binders in the conversation of detox, you hear so much talk about charcoal and sauna and all these more intense therapies. But in reality, that’s kind of the icing on the cake. It sounds like now for me, I still do take binders, I still do charcoals and clays and all of that. And I think it’s totally beneficial. And if I take a hit if I go to a moldy building and take a hit the binders do help me reset. But I’m going to start working in just some high dose probiotics and see and I’ll report back and see what if I take a big hit and instead of a binder, or maybe I do both, maybe I hit binder and probiotic and see if I get greater relief. That’s gonna be an interesting experiment.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. Now, if you’re out there, and you’re like man, probiotics make me feel worse. Or if you have kind of like headaches or mood issues or more cognitive issues, or you just have more digestive issues, there’s a good chance that you have cebo dysbiosis, bacterial overgrowth, maybe other types of gut issues. And those are going to have to be looked at because if you have those types of imbalances, odds are, there’s a skew in the ratio of bad bacteria to good bacteria in the gut. And if we know there’s more bad and less good that’s naturally present, then it’s going to be harder to have good healthy mold detoxification because we know how important those good beneficial bacteria are. So keep that in the back of your head. If you are someone that’s like man, Dr. J never really talked about how all these mold toxins are super, you know, they get killed out by probiotics. You know, bifidobacteria lactobacillus saccharomyces, I can’t take them What do I do? Well, you got to look deeper. You got to reach out to a good functional medicine practitioner and really work on getting your gut dialed in. Work on the six R’s before we touch probiotics, right? Remove the bad foods replace the enzymes acid bile support, support the repairing of the gut lining and the hormones then work on removing the despotic bacteria and the infections. The fifth are is to repopulate re inoculate good bacteria, pre and probiotics. That comes fifth. Not first. Most people want to put that in first. So we guess you got to do things in the right order, then of course, the sixth art is to retest.

Evan Brand: Yeah, let’s talk about pooping too, because you’re mentioning all these steps with the gut. If people are coming straight into detox you mentioned you’d like to come at it right away. Part of the reason is because if people are constipated, you can’t really start binding these toxins binding sounds really attractive. It sounds like Oh, you’ve grabbed on to the toxin. But really, this is not a super tight bond call the styrene is a very tight bond. It’s very strong, but that’s a prescription binder. And there are a couple of papers on mitochondrial damage happening. So I’m not a huge fan of color storming out of the gate for people if they already have chronic fatigue. Now, I’m not a pharmacist, I’m not a medical doctor. So if your doctor says cola star means the best Fine, go for it. But for me when I took cola star mean, I do think it irritated my gut quite a bit. So I was kind of fixing one thing and then irritating another I was pulling the mycotoxins out. But then my gut became more irritated and I had more sensitivities to certain foods. So looking back, what I’ve done it again, I don’t know, I may have just lean more on some of the natural binders that would have just took longer, I was just desperate to get better.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% and so I know with colas diarmaid people that are listening, the research shows this is going to be more helpful to the mycotoxins that are produced by the Aspergillus and Penicillium molds. And a lot of times, if I haven’t great evidence, you would know maybe a little more than me is the specific mold aren’t necessarily the big immunological issue. It’s more of the mycotoxins produced by the mold. Is that correct?

Evan Brand: Well, the bigger problem with the mold itself is just when you’re colonized, so a lot of people will do on the Oh, you’ll see that they’re not colonized, but they just have the mycotoxins. So the way I say it is, you kind of have three situations. Step one, you could be a mold factory. Step two, you could be a mold reservoir, or technically, you could be both you could be a reservoir and a factory at the same time. That’s when the actual mold is the problem. And then that’s where the antifungals come in, in addition to the binders.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you’re saying, so you’re saying the Aspergillus Penicillium mold can be produced by your internal microbiome because of different fungal overgrowth in your body?

Evan Brand: Totally, yeah, if you’ve been exposed long enough, or a big enough amount of it, or your immune system is weakened by other things, whether it’s like you mentioned gut infections or lime or co infections. If something’s weakened do enough in that colony can take place, then you’re in bigger trouble and just using the binders won’t get you better, because you haven’t turned off the water hose. Essentially, you’re still so even if you’re in a desert island situation, you’re still colonized. So you’re generating mycotoxins internally, and binders are just going to open the drain, they’re not going to stop the water pouring in the bucket.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. So that’s where addressing the gut stuff really makes a big difference, wiping out using specific herbs to kind of clean down the fungal overgrowth and bacterial overgrowth and make more of a difference. Of course, with molds, probably more on the fungal side, correct?

Evan Brand: Yeah. And that’s the cool thing about what you and I do is we use a lot of herbs that are broad spectrum, right? So it’s fun, because we may come in and see this colonization problem, but we’re also going to come in and simultaneously be working on the bacterial overgrowth and the parasites and maybe h pylori is in the mix too. And worms and, and gut inflammation. So I would say rarely Are you just going to come in and just do the antifungals. We’re probably going to see many more things going on. By the time you get to a fungal overgrowth. Like if you see on an oat test, you’ll see the Aspergillus growing by the time you get to that point, there’s probably also Candida, there’s probably also some SIBO stuff, there’s potentially also parasite infections to sort of find just the colonization so far, and all the testing I’ve looked at, it’s pretty rare. You’re usually going to have three, four or five infections at the same time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, totally. That makes a lot of sense. I would just say out of the gates, think of the mold as like the seeds and think of the, the fruits that’s that’s bared by the seeds is like the mycotoxins and essentially, you’re saying you could have a whole bunch of seeds down there. And not necessarily a lot of fruit being buried from those seeds or you can just have a lot of the the fruit and the vegetables right. Those are the mycotoxins. I mean, I have a lot of the seeds there. Is that correct?

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s a good way to look at it. Yeah. I mean, I think of mycotoxins. I just call them mold farts because you could go in a building and you could be exposed to okra toxin. in it. Let’s say your child goes to a moldy school or a moldy daycare your child can be exposed to the Penicillium and the Aspergillus but it might not get colonized your child might just come home and it only has the mold fart inside of them. AKA the okratoxin the Michael-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And you can eliminate that and you can detoxify it. Some people they may just be genetically sensitive and they have a harder time eliminating that that mold far out of their system. Is that correct?

Evan Brand: Yeah, exactly. And so people they kind of question us like, Well, why is this such a big deal? moulds everywhere, blah, blah, blah. So just I just want to say just two things on that real quick. Number one is the buildings are much tighter than they used to be. So we don’t have that natural leakage. I mean, you think of like an old 1800s farmhouse, you’ll feel the draught coming in and they use plaster and other building materials. They didn’t use paperback drywall like we use today. So the building materials have changed and the the homes are much tighter. So I mean, you could have an old house in Kentucky. From the 1800s built of plaster, and it might have not been moldy or if it was built of concrete or something, but now you’ve got lumber and then you’ve got paperback drywall, you’ve got high humidity, you’ve got the moisture. People used to do clotheslines, my grandmother would hang her clothes. I remember as a kid, she had the big clothesline, now, you have a dryer in the home, you’ve got moisture coming from that you’ve got your washing machine, you’ve got your dishwasher. Now where that thing is off gassing humidity, you’ve got showers and bathrooms, and we just build this moist on envelope which is a home. So that’s why you and I we have whole house dehumidifiers in our house. So that’s really one important strategy. If you’re like, Okay, yeah, I’m gonna do the binders. Now what? Well, you’ve got to make sure your environment is an oasis. So it’s the air purifiers. It’s the dehumidifiers. It’s the mold treatments that we do inside the home that really are the icing on the cake, or maybe not even the icing. It’s the foundation if you’re getting exposed. You’re wasting your time with these protocols.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, it’s very interesting too I saw, there was, I think, built in the 1800s. And one of the things they use for insulation in the home was a horsehair. So you had horsehair mixed with plaster all in the walls. And that was what they use for insulation. I wonder if I would imagine hair probably wouldn’t mold too much. But it was really interesting. And they couldn’t even get Wi Fi in the home because the horsehair was so insulating from Wi Fi technology it couldn’t even pass through it met crazy.

Evan Brand: Wow. Well, I know a lot of the camper vans you know people are taking vans and converting them into like travel things for the road. They’re putting wool insulation in there because the wool can get moist and wet and it won’t mold versus if you’re doing like a standard like cellulose or other type of insulation that will create mold. So yeah, I mean, nature is smart nature’s got it figured out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that’s probably why some of those homes that had the hair in it, you know, imagine the horsehair is probably very similar in regards to the lack of molding capacity.

Evan Brand: Yeah, there’s it’s not organic, right. I mean, some could argue well, that’s here that’s natural, but it’s not an organic material like paper like mold wants to eat paper fungus wants to eat paper that’s just part of it’s the natural biological process. But here’s [inaudible] interested in eating that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we talked about mold or fungus kind of colonizing. We have SIBO bacteria or Candida which is a common fungus species. All of these produce their own toxins, right. mycotoxins are produced from Candida as well. And these can create whether it’s acid aldehyde, causing a drunk feeling or making you feel drowsy and brain foggy and tired or affecting the mitochondria, or whether it’s endotoxin Produced by H. pylori or some kind of a bacterial overgrowth, whether it’s citrobacter, prep, Prevotella, Pseudomonas, right. All these different types of bacteria, these things can affect obviously gut permeability. And when we affect permeability, we automatically have a negative effect on our immune system because the more permeable our gut is the more undigested foods the more these mycotoxins or endotoxins get in our bloodstream. They can make their way up to our brains and cross between the astrocytes which are the blood brain barrier, immune markers, immune cells, and once they’re in their brain, they can create immune reactions. And they can activate our micro glial cells. And these can create brain fog issues, mood issues, maybe sleep issues, and of course, people have mold, one of the most common symptoms, is this, like this equilibrium brain fog type of scenario. Is that one of the symptoms you notice the most frequently, Evan?

Evan Brand: Totally, yeah, it’s not fine, but I’m slowly recovering. And my old test did show I had Candida and my diets clean. So I’m basically animal base, plus some nuts and some berries here and there. And so people immediately think, oh, Candida, yeah, but I’m paleo or I’m AIP or whatever. There’s no way I can have Candida. And you made a great point that Candida will actually produce mycotoxins specifically one called glio toxin and we can test for that via urine. Aspergillus mold also makes it so if you see super high gliotoxin and you’re super spacey, we know that that could be from a water damage building, but it also could be from Candida. Yeah, if you look on Dr. shoemakers website, surviving mold, or Neil Nathan’s book, toxic, those are great resources to look for symptoms, we put it on our intake form. Now that’s how we justify testing is we just have those symptoms on there, and we just have people check it off on the forum. And anytime we see more than three symptoms checked off in the last six months, we just immediately say okay, we need to run for urinary mycotoxins and I will tell you pretty much 9.9 out of 10 times, if they check, check, check and then we test the mycotoxins are there. And then that gives people the confidence that we’re doing the appropriate binders and the appropriate protocol to address it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and for me, a lot of times out of the gates when I see a lot of these cognitive issues, I just wait and see and look at how much of the foundational things we’re going to do to improve it. So a lot of times just getting the diet cleaned up, getting digestion cleaned up, making sure we’re eliminating, making sure the environments pretty decent, right? There’s nothing over in the environment. A lot of times if we start to see movement on that people are improving. I don’t even jump into the mold stuff out of the gates. I only jump into it if there’s a stronger history, or things aren’t moving in the right direction. Some of these foundational things.

Evan Brand: Yeah, you and I are a little different in that just because now people like seeking me out because they already know they’ve been exposed. Like, oh, Evan, I heard your story. It’s like, Oh, great. Now I got all these like moldy people coming out of the woodwork to come get. Yeah. So they already know, you know what I mean? Yeah. So it’s definitely complicated things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, exactly. And if you’re getting more people that are having these issues, and already know it, and already have done the foundational things that it makes sense to just kind of go into that next initial step, for sure.

Evan Brand: I say it’s not really but but I didn’t finish the thought on it, which was we were talking about pooping. And we got into the SIBO and the SIFO and the infections. And, and one thing we were talking about as the the idea of binding being really attractive, because it sounds like it’s just going to grab on to the toxin. And it’s just like perfectly in a straight jacket, essentially. But that’s not actually how it works. And you can actually get worse using binders. And I did that one day. And in particular, I’ve had many days like this, but one where I took like eight capsules of charcoal, because I was just ramping up slowly to see how I felt when I got up to eight. Oh, my God, I was way worse. And the reason is, the binder is a weak magnet, I think is the best way to look at it. And so the mycotoxin is attached to it. But it can still detach on its journey through your intestinal tract and reabsorb into the bloodstream, especially if you have gut irritation or leaky gut. So this goes back into what you’re hitting on, which is you really got to do the gut work, get the gut somewhat optimized first, or maybe simultaneously optimize the gut. Because if you’ve got all these binders moving stuff through, but your gut super leaky, or the second problem is you’re constipated, you’re not pooping, you’re going to reabsorb a lot of this stuff and get worse. So if you’ve taken binders, and you feel worse, those are two reasons why. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. I mean, if you go, I think you can get these you see them at like the Science Museum and your kid. It’s like a plate of iron filings. And then you put a magnet on top, and you can see the the iron filings kind of trailing the magnet. And obviously, like, the faster you go, you’re going to see more of the iron filings kind of like falling off the tail end right kind of getting left behind, right? If you put that magnet in there and like you just really go slow through the the iron filings, or you keep a larger percent of those iron filings. So I kind of look at that is if we start using binders, the less we use, the less fall off, we’re going to have as well. Well, one, the less you’re going to mobilize, right and the less you mobilize the last fall off as a percentage, right and as a absolute amount. So if we’re going to start with binders, we’re going to start with a very, very small amount to mitigate the follow up percentage, that is just going to happen because Gavin said there’s a weak bond there and so you can break some of that off. And of course, a lot of these binders could cause you to have slower motility. So if you’re already on the fence with your guts, and you start doing any binders at all and you notice your motility starts to slow down, got to be careful, we gotta start either waiting, fixing the gut, maybe adding some natural motility support. We just have to be very careful binders causing slow motility is going to be a recipe to cause more mold die off issues.

Evan Brand: Yeah, for me, luckily, you know, I never had a problem pooping. My poops are always great even and I never got constipated. That’s like the biggest complaint of it. No, I was fine. So for me, I was lucky. But many people they do get stopped up. So we will come in and use like magnesium can work great like magnesium hydroxide or citrate will use higher dose vitamin C. What else do you like to use to move the bowels?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, we can use natural pro kinetics, whether it’s ginger, five HTP, a lot of times neurotransmitter five HTP issues can cause problems, because that really helps with the gut as well. We can look at things like carnitine we can look a lot of different bitters that can be helpful. Not having enough acid or enzyme levels can easily cause lower motility. Obviously, a lot of sympathetic nervous system stress over adrenal stimulation, can’t activate more of the sympathetic nervous system that can slow down peristalsis and cause a lot of problems. They actually need more parasympathetic nervous system stimulation. So all those things can can push us in that wrong direction.

Evan Brand: Yeah, this is fun stuff. I mean, this is like one of the smoking guns. I mean, it certainly was for me, and I hope people are encouraged by this, you can get better with this. It takes time, timeline wise, two to three years is what I would say for most people with a major toxin load. I’ve seen it done in a year or so. But if you ask some of the medical Doc’s that are treating mold, they’ll say three to five year timeline, I just want to make that clear, because some people get frustrated, they’ll say, hey, um, you know, six weeks into a protocol. And you know, here’s my results. It’s like, man, six weeks is just a drop in the bucket. So if you’ve been exposed to mold as a kid, or your mother had placental transfer, or you were breastfed, and that was transferred, or you grew up in a moldy house or had childhood exposure, you had exposure in your college dorm, then you had exposure in your office and your home. I mean, if you’re talking 50 67 year old person reversing mold issues in two to three years, that’s very fast. So I just want people to have realistic expectations with this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep, obviously depends upon how long you’ve been accumulating these things for sure. I mean, if it’s colonized, because if you’re colonized-

Evan Brand: -too, you got to knock that out too. Because let’s say you got exposed 20 years ago, but now you’re colonized so you’re just generating internal mycotoxins That is also something I think is going to definitely increase your timeline.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And your best way to look at that. It’s going to be like an organic acid test where you’re looking at some of those Aspergillus those type of mold. Those mold critters, is that correct?

Evan Brand: Yeah, there’s like four or five markers on page one. I know you like to use Genova. Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I use that test as well for some of these, you know, more more potential people, or for looking at a lot more oxalates and things like that. That’s a nice test to look at that.

Evan Brand: Yeah. So that one’s good. And then the Great Plains is good too. I mean, the page one on it’s awesome because they also have a marker for I think it’s try carbolic. I’d have to look back but they do have a marker now for Fusarium, which is cool because sometimes you’ll see some people colonized for Fusarium, which is another mole but not Aspergillus. A lot of times it’s both though if they’re colonized, that means they were so weak or had so much exposure. Usually you’ll see the Aspergillus and Fusarium you can see all mode molds growing. Maybe the technology gets better in the next few years. But for now, you can at least test the most common mold we see which is Aspergillus.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep. 100%. So let’s kind of go into all the different binders. Right, we talked about costar I mean that’s a medication that’s going to help more of the okra toxin, right, the Aspergillus Penicillium molds. Charcoal is a common one. And like it, charcoal is very prone to constipation. It’s also let’s say, if you had tend to be more sensitive in the colon area, whether it’s hemorrhoids or fissures, it can be a little bit rough on people’s colons on the way out. So I find if you tend to be more prone for hemorrhoids, that can be a problem. So keep an eye on charcoal. It’s a good one. It’s the cheap one. It’s nice, you know, that’s coconut shells, right? That’s where they’re getting a lot of the good charcoal from. And again, we like charcoal for primarily removing a couple of different types of moles, right, the big mole that we’re going to see with charcoal, it’s gonna affect the trachoma scenes, right? It’s going to have some effect on okra toxin as well. Those are going to be some of the big ones out of the gate with charcoal, Caesar anything else that charcoal tends to be very helpful with Yeah, okra and the trifle at the scenes. Anything else there?

Evan Brand: It may help us in pesticide herbicide stuff too, right? I mean, we know charcoal is a pretty good broad spectrum, but it’s not perfect in isolation. That’s why you and I like to use blends a lot because we see people go Yep, benefits of charcoal and then they just totally ignore the others.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So it’s nice to have some broad spectrum there. Obviously, we have things like clays as well, which are really nice, tend to be a little bit more gentle coming out the colon. Again, very helpful for gliotoxin ochratoxin zearalenone. There’s a couple different mold toxins that you’re gonna see more on the beneficial side. In regards to clays also, it’s going to be very helpful if aflatoxin as well, f one and F was in a what be what you see more with the peanuts, right?

Evan Brand: Yeah, totally more food base, the area known to be zero and unknown is going to come from Fusarium that really cattle, right? Yeah, so the cattle, they they’ll test high because they’re eating like messed up corn, corn, nasty.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ve even heard Dave Asprey talking about putting zero unknown in the cow’s ears, they’ll put it in their ears, and it causes them to accumulate more fat. Now, we know that mold toxins have a negative effect on thyroid. So I wonder if it’s just lowering the thyroid enough where they’re just becoming more fat accumulators versus burners. So that’s an interesting concept.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well, Sierra Leone is super super estrogenic, too. So maybe it’s just making them out of high estrogen and then that creates the body fat. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I know Dave talked about that many years ago, but which is really interesting, but putting it in the cow’s ear, like a pellet. That’s crazy.

Evan Brand: It’s bizarre. Well, I can confirm that the clays work amazing. First year alone, we had a woman who had a lot of estrogen dominant symptoms. So we got to run the zeolite spray Actually, we just tried to go isolation and see how it worked. Man, it worked like a charm. We got the retest back in the zero linoone was gone and a lot of her estrogen dominance symptoms went away. So that was freakin amazing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s great. Next we have gluco monin and different fibers. So fibers are going to be really helpful whether it’s like a modified citrus pectin. gluco monans. Also, another type of fiber that we use is a premier probiotic, it can be helpful, but that’s going to be helpful against aflatoxin ochratoxin psoralen own modified citrus pectin is also shown to be great at biting up heavy metals lead different things like that. okra toxin like I already mentioned, those are some of the big ones out of the gate. Anything else you want to comment there? 

Evan Brand: Yeah, before we forget to mention it. Calcium D glue grade is also really helpful. We do talk about that in regards to estrogen you and I’ve done a podcast on like bacterial overgrowth, and we’ve talked about how high beta glucuronic days will basically cause you to recirculate hormones and toxins. So, we will come in and use calcium D glucose as part of a mole detox protocol, but it does help with other things too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep, I like that. Very cool. Next, chlorella chlorella is very good, really high in certain vitamins A C and E good source of fiber, helps with heavy metals as well been shown to be very helpful at mobilizing, really mobilizing a binding up to any mercury. It’s in your gut. So if you’re dumping a whole bunch of mercury via your gallbladder, from your liver into your intestines, it does help bind that up which is really Really good, very helpful at binding up different types of mold as well. The ones are going to be the aflatoxin. That’s the one you’re going to see more in food products, peanuts, right, that okra toxin, which is a common one that you’re going to see. So it’d be more like, like water damage in the home for okra, right?

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, Aspergillus makes that so and then also, you mentioned that mobilization. So a lot of times we’ll use combos, so we’ll use like a chlorella and cilantro cuz cilantro will help mobilize. And that’s the cool thing is, you may create what’s called a mycotoxin detox protocol. But in reality, you’re working on heavy metals, you’re working on pesticides and herbicides. So it’s really fun because you’re killing so many birds with the same stones when it comes to these binders. So chlorella is amazing. And we like to use micronized versions of it. So we can put links and show you what we want. And what we would want you to use, obviously, at this point, may be good to consult the practitioner, you know, we’re happy to help or if you have another practitioner guiding you through this, who’s done this before, it’s helpful because you do want to be able to approach these things in a smart way and you want to know what to do if you do get a reaction because like I said, I screwed myself up many times, the best way to learn is experience in the trenches, and I’m in the trenches on my own mold recovery. And I tell you, too much chlorella sounds like Oh, just some chlorella. Whoa, right. That’s powerful.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep, exactly. Next one humic acid, right, we see humic acid or different fulvic minerals. A lot of different companies are recommending these and pushing these now which are helpful, right? Click acid fulvic minerals, they’re very helpful because they are anti inflammatory, which is really good. I think they tend to not push constipation as much right? You can kind of take them they’re not going to slow down your motility as much. Have you had that experience?

Evan Brand: Yeah, you and I’ve used that one, the toxic bind, when that one with the fulvic acid is not as much clay are anything that one tends to move the bowels pretty good. It may even have a bow moving effect to it in reality.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep. And it doesn’t, I don’t think it binds up as much on the nutrient side, a lot of these binders, you definitely want to take more away from food, because they can bind up a lot of the supplements or nutrition in the food where the humic acids not going to be as competing for nutrients as well.

Evan Brand: Yeah, good call. I have seen that out where there’ll be discussion like, Hey, you can take it with or without food. I still think empty stomach is better, though, especially first thing in the morning or even at night, because you’re fasted and when you’re fasting that’s been proven to excrete more mycotoxin. So if you wake up first thing in the morning, you’ve been fasting for 12 14 hours. To me, that’s a great time to take a binder

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And if you’re binding things up, and there’s something there and you’re binding up a nutrient where you could be binding up a mold toxin, well, you’re kind of just you’re losing kind of your bang for your buck on these binders. So you want it to have the greatest ability to bind to as much of the toxic debris that’s present on other nutritive substances. So we got to keep an eye on that. And the next we talked about probiotics we already hit that right that’s going to have a major effect on binding with many different models, whether it’s aflatoxin gliotoxin, Stratego. matto syston the tri coat the scenes, the psoralen own, the annotated bee and then the Citron and these are different mold toxins that we already hit on in the beginning I’m just gonna re summarize that again for y’all but probiotics tend to have the best bang for your buck that’s why working on fixing your gut even if you don’t have mold issues is gonna make you more prone to mold toxicity in the future having good motility. good healthy gut bacteria balance good digestion really is the foundation for healthy mold detoxification excretion.

Evan Brand: That’s amazing, isn’t it? Because you and I’ve gone and and I totally appreciate you being on board with me to go down some of these mold rabbit holes together ever since you and I became educated on this and Oh, totally, we kind of went in some, I don’t want to say tangents. But we’ve dove into Glutathione and [inaudible] and cell membranes and all these other things. But now here we are, again, circling right back to the foundation of just improving the gut function. And that’s just amazing. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely, I totally agree. So anyone listening if you guys enjoy this or you want to dive kind of a little bit deeper down the rabbit hole of mobile detoxification and or of course dealing with the gut because that’s a major foundation for it. Feel free click down below we’re going to have links to Evan’s site where you can reach out to Evan, also my site, where you can reach out to myself Dr. J, we’re here to help you worldwide via Skype, FaceTime, all the different video mediums as well as phone, we’re excited to work with you all we have colleagues as well that we work with to help kind of get people in the right direction. Outside of that, anything else you want to highlight?

Evan Brand: Now that’s it, we’ll put some links below. So you can check out some of the products we do have some professional probiotics that we use clinically that we give to our clients. So these are things that you can access to just as a listener of the show, and that’ll support the show. But more importantly, it’ll help you to get this stuff out of your body. So take care and if you have questions, concerns, please reach out we’re here for you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thanks. So I will put our links below for the products and labs and supplements that we like and use the most at our practice. Thanks guys. Have a phenomenal day. Take care y’all. 

Evan Brand: Take care. Bye


Audio Podcast:

Recommended products:


Deluxe Mold Test Kit

GPL Mycotox

Genova Organix® Comprehensive Profile

Genova NutrEval® FMV

Genova Organix® Dysbiosis Profile

Genova SIBO Breath Test

Probio Flora 60 caps

The Affects of Mycotoxins On Male & Female Fertility | Podcast #318

Mycotoxins exposure from food occurs globally but is more common in hot humid environments, especially in low-income settings, and might affect pregnancy outcomes. However, frequent mold contamination of maternal diet can therefore affect anyone. In this video, Dr. J and Evan talks about mycotoxins and how it can affect men and women’s fertility. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

2:52        Zearalenone, Mold Toxins

11:38      Mold Toxins from Food and Grains

14:32      Binders

21:20      Fertility Issues

27:13      Detox Support

This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is itune-1.png


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we are live. It’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani in the house here with Evan Brand, Evan, how are we doing today my friend? 

Evan Brand: Doing awesome, ready to dive in, have some fun together. So you and I, we don’t really market ourselves as like fertility doctors, fertility practitioners, anything like that. But we’ve both between us had many successful healthy babies not only in our own family but that our clients have had. And it’s interesting because fertility really comes as a side effect of getting healthy. And so that’s the first big key point of today. When you look at the fertility industry, you’ve got the in vitro fertilization, you’ve got all these shots, all these different drugs. They’re not they’re not really addressing root cause in most cases, most cases, they’re just trying to come in and just find a way to sort of short circuit or hijack the circuitry to make a baby happen. But we would argue there’s a better way, which is get someone healthy, and I was looking into I’m doing a mold presentation, and I was looking to do some research on mycotoxins and something that you and I test for via urine are various mycotoxins and there’s one in particular called z everleigh, known z like zebra z everleigh known, and this is a highly, highly, highly estrogenic mycotoxin, far more estrogenic than soy. And people freak out about soy and they should but nobody freaks out about z or linode. And that’s really, to me the bigger issue and so we have a paper here that we found called maternal mycotoxin exposure and adverse pregnancy outcomes, and there’s many many papers on this. This was just a review of them. And it was talking about the different mycotoxins so anything from aflatoxin, to okra toxin to Fusarium based toxins. And here’s what can happen. hypertensive emergencies in pregnancy, neural tube defects, increased risk of preterm birth and late term miscarriage, neonatal jaundice, impaired fetal growth. And I mean, just straight infertility. So, when we see women that are infertile, I mean, I just look at some of the friends I had from high school and college. And many of them have had issues with fertility. Some of them did IVF. Some of them had miscarriages. Some of them had pre preterm birth at a friend actually just have a baby and their baby showed up six weeks early like wow, what is her Mold Test look like? So this is a really, really big piece of the puzzle that I think people are missing. And we’re inside all the time, right? We’re on technology. So we’re inside a lot more than we used to in the farmer days. And so now we’re breathing this stuff in all day, whereas before, it maybe would have only happened when you were sleeping in the farmhouse. But during the day, you’re out on the farm. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. 100% Yep. 100%, the zerion alone. mycotoxin is that’s made by the Fusarium fungi. So it’s a mycotoxin actually made by that level of mold. And it’s in the food and it’s in the in the the animal feed. And that animal feed is designed to fatten those animals up. So I have one kind of study here. It’s called zuranolone. All the study is called by Science Direct. And it’s looking at the absorption of zuranolone on body weights, and how it increased the size of the pigs 15 to 25 kilograms. And basically, it increased body weight. And then one of the big things they found with zuranolone. In reproductive tissue, it actually decreased. Fertility is one of the side effects of this study. I’ll pull up the exact study on screen here in a minute, I have it up here in front, I’ll find the exact paragraph on there, and I’ll show it to y’all. But mold toxins is going to be one of the big conversations here with fertility. Now we can plug that into xeno, estrogens and plastics, we could potentially plug it into pesticides as well, which are going to be found in food. We can plug it into growth hormones and milk and dairy and hormones and animal products. The problem is it’s all a hormonal stress load. It’s not just one thing. So when you look at different studies on one topics on one thing on one toxin on one hormone on one mold, it may not be enough in one person or globally to pop up as an issue. I mean, here we’re finding studies on an off the bat. But we know it’s all about your stress load. And so I want to get people’s mindsets kind of around that stress, that metaphorical stress bucket and all of these different toxins, whether it’s mold, or pesticides or hormones, or plastic type of hormones, they’re all adding into that big stress bucket. And of course, fertility is going to be significantly impacted by that.

Evan Brand: Yeah, well said, here’s something crazy, too. It’s a little bit related. You and I were looking at this a little bit ago. The onset of puberty is massively dropping. So why am I bringing puberty? Well, because this is connected into hormones, and what’s happening with hormones. So in 1860, and you had a graph of this, that was really cool, too. But in 1860, the average age of onset of puberty in girls was 16.6 years. So over 16 years old, 16 and a half years 1860. That’s puberty. In 2010. It is now 10 and a half years old. That is insane. And that’s probably the most I mean, I can guarantee you that’s the most rapid change in puberty age in in human history. And it all happens less. And it all happened in the last What’s that about? 100 and 150 170 years. That’s insane, right? Isn’t that crazy? I’ll pull that graph up here for everyone to see here. So you guys can see it. I think now really important to visualize. Yeah. Now while you’re doing that, they’re just talking here, just like you said, there’s this really this stress bucket, so endocrine disrupters, various chemicals in the environment, acting on hormones, widespread industrial and pharmaceutical pollutants. I mean, there’s a lot of stuff here. diagnosing recently high in sugar and fats declining physical activity. Yeah, here’s the graph. So people listening, you’re not going to get to see this, but the graph is pretty nuts. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, so you can see here the, the y axis, the up and down access, so you can see the age right 16 to 15. And then you can see the x axis is time. So as we go from the 1860s, up to current day, you can see we kind of flat plateau between, you know, 13 ish, 13 ish for puberty age versus, you know, 15 to 16. And a lot of that has to be influenced due to mold toxins, and some so here’s one article here that Evan talked about here, maternal mycotoxins, and again, mycotoxins are toxins produced by the mold. So a lot of times, it’s not necessarily the mold that’s causing the problem. It’s the toxins produced by the mold. So it’s good to look and test for mold, but also test maybe for the urinary mycotoxins as well, but you can see exposure and adverse pregnancy outcomes. And and this is a very interesting study talking about increase in puberty, increasing in puberty age, like I mentioned, also fertility, right. preterm birth, late miscarriage inclusion, some evidence for toxins or pregnancy may have detrimental effects on pregnancy outcomes. Now, of course, there’s limited studies, right? No one makes a whole bunch of money, studying this kind of stuff. But we know it’s, it’s there. And there’s some data already on it. And we also have a lot of common sense. We know something’s a toxin, and can affect the hormones that it makes sense why that may be effective. 

Evan Brand: Yeah. And I’ve seen several women who are going through a protocol spontaneously get pregnant, which is really cool. Now, some of these women came to me with the intention of getting pregnant. They’re like, Hey, you know, I’ve been told the fertility specialist are unable to help me. Can you help? And I’ll say yes, Probably so. And then some of these women just had spontaneous pregnancies as an accident because they thought they were infertile. They thought they can’t get pregnant, we put them on a protocol, and then all of a sudden they get pregnant. So let’s go into some of the the action steps. I mean, what are we doing for these people? I think it’s important to know about what we what we discussed is everyone owns bad news affects hormones affects fertility affects puberty. But what do you do about it? So as you mentioned, number one, we’re going to be testing the environment. So using-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hold on one thing, I want to go a little bit deeper into what you just said, we talked about some of these mold toxins and in fertility, right, we have this one study here, which we already mentioned, which is maternal mycotoxin exposures and adverse pregnancy outcome, which is a new new study, right? mycotoxin research may 2020. That’s important. And this is actually on humans. There’s lots of studies on zearalenone,  that’s i’m pronouncing that good in farm animals, because it’s been used in farm settings to fatten animals up for many years to the feed. So there’s a lot of data on this. And that’s important. So we know for instance, studies on in vitro effects allowed to understand the mechanism of action, right in vivo means the actual animals, and they see an impairment of semen quality and female reproductive function. So we talked about fertility, right? Most people think of fertility as women, right. But we know it can affect men as well. And it takes two to tango, right? And zearalenone could be a factor responsible for Reproductive failure in farm animals. And so if you go to the reproductive MD, are they going to be testing you if you’re having issue with pregnancy for mold toxins? Probably not. And look here, one study here, under allanon. Here, if you look here on the bottom part, so zearalenone is a nonsteroidal estrogenic mycotoxin. It’s produced by several species of the fusarium fungi, okay, so it’s produced by this Fusarium fungus, it’s a mycotoxin. And you can see here it’s supposedly it’s not it’s low in grain content, but it’s the storage of a lot of the grain where the moisture is greater than 30 to 40%, where this mold and fungus is produced, okay. And then right here in this one part, typical clinical signs are hyper estrogen ism, which explains the increase in puberty. Are the decrease in puberty age, right? More hormones sooner in life increases puberty, swelling of the vulva mammary gland hyperplasia, secretions prolonged uterus, increase in pseudo pregnancy, infertility, decreased libido, complications of rectal prolapses, stillbirth, small literary. So we know it has a lot of fertility issues. And a lot of the studies first tend to happen in animals. So it’s good to know the data here in animals, as well as some of the human stuff here we talked about earlier. 

Evan Brand: Yeah, the whole thing’s crazy. I mean, it’s hard to believe they would use this in the feed. I mean, like you said, maybe not intentionally, but it’s kind of a byproduct of storing grain in a, you know, in a moist thing. I mean, it’s like, you’d have to have a dehumidifier on your grain, or how about you just pasture your animals? So you don’t need to feed them moldy grain? How about that? 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I mean, I can tell you one story I had with Dave Asprey. He told me and I can’t find the data on this, but they would use zearalenone pellets, that put the pellet in the cow’s ear. And that was enough to cause this increased fat absorption. Because those hormones were so concentrated, they were going into obviously, the the blood supply via the ear, and it was causing the animals to get fatter. And of course, farmers, you know, sell their animals based off of weight. So we know that zearalenone may even be used in a way outside of just Incidentally, in the fee, we know, it may just be there to fatten them up as well. 

Evan Brand: I’ve heard that too. I can’t find anything on it. But if any old school farmers are putting zero unknown pellets in your cow’s ears, let us know. Tell us about it. Give us the story on it, because we’d like to like to share this stuff. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I know. It’s totally interesting. I believe there’s something to it. I believe, you know, someone like Asprey wouldn’t, wouldn’t say that unless he had some actual good info on that. But very interesting. So off the bat, we have mold toxins, we talked about that. And that’s important. Now again, and humans, you could get mold toxins from eating crappy grains and crappy food. So eating foods that are going to have lower mycotoxin counts, and to be important. So you know more from vegetables more from fruits more from high quality, fresh pasture fed animal products, good high quality fats, that’s going to decrease a lot of your mold and mycotoxin and xarelto load right there out of the gates, okay. And then the next component is going to be making sure your house isn’t moldy. So if you have a history of water damage, or flooding, you want to make sure you go back and listen to our podcasts on looking at and dealing with mold and mycotoxins in your home. But of course, any history of water damage, or any leaks, you want to leave or any visible mold, you want to at least get a really good high quality amino Linux plate test that looks at the mold as well as mold toxins. I’ve had some patients that have ordered the plates and just say, Well, I’m gonna let it culture and just look at it myself. It’s like, well, you want to send it to the lab, because you want to know what the mold species is. And if there’s any mycotoxins associated with that mold species, because you may look at it and see the culture, right. But you may not know if it’s a friendly mold or not. So you want to know if it’s Is it a, is it a mold that’s from the environment and the soil? Or is it something that’s actually from water damage type of mold species? That’s important to know.

Evan Brand: On a retest, it’s probably fine to do the self test, because you can look and just see this, hopefully, colonies show up. But yeah, on the initial I tell people the same yeah, definitely. Because also too, we rarely find that the house correlates to the mycotoxin in someone’s urine. That’s pretty interesting. So that tells us most people are sick from a previous exposure, but in a few cases, we have found where the molds in someone’s house and the mycotoxins those would produce for example, Aspergillus and Penicillium producing things like okra toxin, mycophenolic acid, will then look at the house and see Oh, yeah, you’ve got a bunch of Aspergillus growing, that matches up to the urine. So it’s cool to see, but it’s not necessary to to get someone better. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I look at it just a tiny bit differently. Like if I see someone with a lot of mold, like weird kind of neurological symptoms, I always do the foundational things first, because a lot of times that can move the needle without having to go into any crazy mole protocols off the bat. But then if I see their home is very high and mold as well. You know, it’s easy, it’s sometimes it’s easier to decrease the exposure than to accelerate detoxification, especially if their guts not working well. So then there may be some easy simple strategies, like let’s just get a high quality air filter, let’s maybe get like a citrus bass, anti mole candle. If there’s any active leaks, let’s get someone in there that can work on remediation process, at least patch the leak or decrease humidity in the area. We can work on a couple of those things. And that can move the needle a lot. 

Evan Brand: Yep. Let’s go into binders. So this is where the magic happens. Like you said, you may need to do some work on the gut First, we may come in and help support the adrenals because detoxification it is work and it’s not easy, and you can get worse by trying to make yourself better and I’ve certainly overdone it on binders. I’ve certainly overdone it with glutathione and had a bad headache for a long time. So that wasn’t fun. So the good news is you can pull this stuff out of the body and in regards to that yerlan own, the some of the most effective binders are going to be your clays. Now charcoal can help a little bit so we often use like a broad spectrum you can come in and spot treat. And there are certain people that say you need to spot treat mold toxins meaning you need to use charcoal for okra toxin you need to use zeolite clay for zearalenone. But the truth is, a lot of people are not showing up with the true amount of mycotoxins on their first urine sample, meaning you may just show up with okra toxin, but you also may have zearalenone. But if you’re a bad detoxifier, you may not be urinating out all of those toxins. Therefore, I do kind of spot treat, if you will, but I still like to use broad spectrum full spectrum binders just because of this issue because what’ll happen is on a retest, maybe we took care of one toxin and then a new one shows up like well crap, we could have been addressing the other mycotoxin say we were just using charcoal for ochratoxin we could have been using a little bit of zeolite clay as well and that would have took care of the zero unknown but boom, now’s your will unknown shows up on the retest. Now we’ve got a whole new mycotoxin to focus on. So long story short, full spectrum, broad spectrum and multiple binders are what we like to use. And then I’m a huge fan of the micronized chlorella there’s a couple brands we use they have a liquid chlorella, that can be amazing. There are some tablets of broken cell wall, chlorella, that can be awesome for heavy metals as well. And then sweating. I mean, I tell you I feel much, much more clear, you know, clarity mentally, right after I get out of the sauna, you can have like a detox hercus reaction from a sauna as well. But if you’re healthy enough and you’re supporting adrenals you’re doing electrolytes. To me sauna is a game changer and even just a hot bath. If you don’t have access to a sauna, even if you just get hot enough to sweat in the tub. That may be a little too hard on someone if you’re weak adrenally like your constitution is weak. But or if you have blood pressure issues, you know, a hot bath may make you feel bad. But if you can do it, you can sweat you know it’s free, compared to a sauna may cost you 1000 bucks minimum.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah, I mean, you can always add in some, you know, really good magnesium salts like Epsom salts, which can be very helpful and relaxing for you as well. So yeah, so the problem is a lot of the binders that we may add in or if it’s necessary to add them, and they could also decrease or cause bowel motility issue. So if you already have a lot of bowel issues, this is why it’s so important that we kind of deal with the hierarchy. And a lot of times the gut needs to be fully addressed. And working so we can have good detoxification because the gut is so important. Hepatobiliary why’s liver gallbladder, it dumps a lot of those bile and toxins that are mixed in with the liver and the gallbladder back into the intestines, and it has to move out. And so we give maybe things like Evan mentioned, various pectins are activated charcoals, or clays or fulvic minerals to bind up a lot of these things. But if we have really slow motility, it could really jack up with our absorption of nutrition and a reabsorption of other toxins, we want to make sure our bowels are still moving. So some people may not be able to handle that. And also, you kind of alluded to getting a false negative on some of these urinary Mold Test. That’s why it’s very important that you probably do one to two weeks worth of glutathione ahead of a urinary mold test to make sure we’re adequately dumping it. Because people their detoxification may be so weak, they may not be dumping it, they may look to that Mold Test, hey, look, I’m good, but you may not be. So I do a week or two. And I tell patients that if you are really feeling crappy during that loading phase, you probably have some level of toxins, and may not just be mold, it could be other pesticides or metals or other things in the environment you’re dumping. But it’s always good to do that load period. And if you feel too sick or just too achy during that timeframe, you know, feeling lethargic, malaise, achy brain, foggy Moody, it’s probably not the right time to do any testing yet, maybe you want to wait a little bit longer, get things moving better, and test the home, see what’s happening in the home and wait a little bit more till everything’s working better on the detoxification side, just getting your diet better, decreasing your inflammation, improving your nutrient density, surprisingly, that actually moves the needle a lot. And then you could always add in some gentle sweating protocols like Evan mentioned as well. 

Evan Brand: Yeah, you know, you and I’ve talked about this for years, this idea that when people figure out there’s something going on, they want to take care of it immediately. Remember, we’ve done shows on parasites, and we talked about how, as soon as you see parasites show up, the the gut is, you know, the gut feeling is Oh my god, get this out of me and you and I’ve kind of discussed that you do want to do things in the correct order. And I would agree that happens with this toxicity issue as well. So if we’re working with a mom who’s had infertility problems, or you know, issues with pregnancy, and we want to help increase her health, we still are going to focus on the gut because there’s a right place in the right time. And if you’re really weak, you’re really sick, and then you try to go straight into a detox protocol. You could go the wrong direction. And it Trust me, I want this stuff out of you as fast as you want it out of you. But there is a right place in the right time. So we’re still going to be doing other testing, like looking at stool to try to investigate these gut infections. You know, you mentioned some of the reabsorption of toxins, too. That’s a big problem. If you have bacterial overgrowth because of this whole beta glucuronidation issue that we see. And so, there may need to be a month or two of just fixing the gut and fixing the enzyme production before we even get into detox. So don’t rush, don’t rush, don’t rush. That’s the whole message here. And can you do this on your own? That’s a question we get a lot. Well, can I just go online? Go on Amazon, buy a bottle of charcoal and be done with this? I would argue No, I will speak for Justin and say he would say no, as well, because we’ve done this 1000 plus times. And we know that if you’re just trying to detox and you’re not addressing everything else, you may send yourself backwards. What does that mean? Well, it means if you’re overwhelming your system, so like when I took charcoal, I’ve got some right here on my desk. I thought, well, I feel so good on four capsules a day, I’m going to go up to eight capsules a day. And I didn’t do anything in regards to my gut, my liver adrenals. And I crashed hard, I had way too much charcoal is like whoa, you can’t have too much of a good thing. So that’s why I would argue it’s better to have a practitioner kind of prep your body and build up the other pillars of health. Before you go into the detox pillar. detox is sexy, right? Like detox tea and all of this, it’s kind of a trendy thing to do. But people don’t have the disclaimer that you need to be ready, you need to have a constitutional strength to do this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 110% I totally agree. Sometimes we detoxification slow and steady, is the better way to deal with the issues, especially if a lot of these issues came slow and steady. If they came over decades, then it makes sense. If it you know a little bit more of a short term kind of toxic issue, you could probably hit it a little bit faster and harder, especially if you’re younger and more healthy. That totally makes sense. So when we talk about, you know, fertility and mold, I know a lot of women out there are going to be like, man, I knew it’s mold, maybe maybe not. So I just want to make sure anytime we talk about a specific issue, and we connect it to a thing like fertility that resonates with women, right. Like if you have fertility issues, you know, it’s it’s a very stressful thing for women that want to get pregnant, and they can’t, it’s very, very stressful. And so you want to look at the goal of pregnancy holistically. So you always want to look at diet and nutrient density. And all of the building blocks in your food. And being able to digest those foods adequately is core foundational, you want to be able to get sleep and having high quality water, you want to look at mitigating toxins, whether it’s molding your food, whether it’s eating crummy moldy grains, whether it’s consuming a lot of hormones, or pesticides, you want to look at those things as foundational. And then we can look at the hormones, we can look at your luteal phase hormone levels, we can look at your adrenals we can look at thyroid, autoimmune gut permeability, gut infections, and then we can eventually work our way to detoxification. And mold levels down the road, there’s an order of operation. So just kind of look at things as what’s going to give you the best bang for your buck. I always tell my patients if you’re going bowling, right and it’s your first role, you’re not trying to hit the outside left pin, you’re trying to hit the pin right in the middle, why hit the pin in the middle and knocks everything else down. So it’s kind of that’s how we want to look at this and mold maybe a pin that’s off to the right or left with some people. Some people that may be the center pin, right. But we always go with that center pin. And that’s always gonna be the foundational things to start and then we build on that as we go. 

Evan Brand: Nice. bringing out the bowling analogy. That’s a new one. I like it. I like it. That’s awesome. Excellent. So for men, I mean men listening to they’re like, Well, you know, this is all about her. Nope. Did you hear the part about the reduction in sperm quality? So men, you are not exempt? I get frustrated with these fertility practitioners that people have seen before they come to me because why is the male not on this phone call? Like, this is so important. Why is the male not here? What is he doing? And so we know just the mold toxin, but anything else in regards to the diet, the lifestyle, the gut, that all affects male fertility as well. And I think this is really the missing piece. The women take all the blame the emotional blame the physical. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s a big issue for them to, to not have fertility, and so the men are just sitting back with their arms crossed, like, Oh, poor you, but they got to get involved too. And so there may be a male protocol that we’re implementing as well, a lot of the foundational nutrients for women, you know, we’re doing prenatals omegas, vitamin D, vitamin K, possibly some trace minerals, enzymes, electrolytes, liver support, did I say adrenal support already? adrenals. So those are some of the pieces that we’re implementing. And good news is, a lot of this stuff we’re talking about. It is reversible. Now, if you’re age 50 I’ve had some women literally age 50 52 coming to me because they want to have babies. I’m like, Ah, you’re 52 I’m gonna help you get healthy, but I’m not signing in blood. You’re going to have a baby at age 52 like this is Wow. So, you know, I think there is a cut off. But, you know, if you’re 40 listening to this, and you’ve had issues, I think you still have time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. So I mean, my wife, we had our first child she was 41 and then 43. We had no problem getting pregnant. For the most part. We had a little bit of a fertility snafu in the beginning because she had a fibroid that was kind of embedded in the uterine lining. We didn’t know about it and was just sucking a lot of blood flow. So I always recommend patients that have fertility goals just to get a good general fertility workup to make sure there’s no ovarian tube or fallopian tube blockages, no weird, fibroids or anything weird that endometriosis that could be affecting fertility, because those things are pretty easy to remove. If we have to surgically Of course, there’s natural ways to do it, but it takes time, right. So if you’re under fertility window, you don’t have years to help these things reabsorb on their own. Sometimes a surgical intervention can be helpful when the clock is ticking. But guys, it’s pretty easy to roll out guys, we can do a high quality sperm test we can look at motility how the sperm are moving, you know what percents moving forward, what percent not moving, what percent. moving backwards, we can look at shape, which is morphology, we can also look at overall sperm count. So sperm count cut off, I think most the average firm comm for guys is around 20 million, we want at least 50 million. So we can look at that and there’s also expanded sperm panels, we’ll look at all look at DNA damage. We’ll look at oxidative stress as well. Now the key thing with guys is going to be just making sure insulin resistance toxins are under control, maybe a little bit of lifting some resistance training, you know good quality organic food right enough protein, enough fat that tends to be enough for most guys, adequate Selenium and zinc right adequate levels of good amino acids like Argentine that tends to be enough to really support good healthy sperm count where it’s going to be high enough. We can also add in things like co q 10 and carnitine. Like I mentioned, to support it extra. So it’s pretty easy to rules rule guys out in the beginning, Okay, good, hey, we’re at an adequate level great. Oh, we’re not let’s look at DNA damage. And then we can always then look at toxin load. Or if a lot of the guys are eating conventional standard American or eating a lot of GMOs, we can we can tweak a lot of that we can run a specific intercellular nutrient panel to look deeper at the nutrients and work on spot treating those on top of a good diet as well. But that’s essential. I like to get that if fertility is a goal to get the guy ruled out right away in the beginning. 

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s that’s great. Yeah. And that’s where like we said, Good multi comes in maybe some adaptogens too, because some of the herbs we use, they do have some supportive effects on hormone levels with man regulating testosterone estrogen levels, you know, some of the detox support may help in regards to estrogen. If men have had have a toxin issue and they’ve got, you know, breast tissue, they’ve got gyno, maybe they’ve done steroids. I mean, there are some issues that they kind of throw a wrench in the gears, but yeah, in general, you definitely make it sound like it’s much easier for men. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I mean, out of the gates, I mean, women’s hormones are just so much more delicate. They’re like a beautiful Symphony and men’s are kind of like a foghorn. As I’ve always said, and, and with a symphony. If you just have the string the strings off or the percussion instruments off, you know that Symphony could turn to noise pretty fast. Definitely. We want to make sure that that’s you know, fully dialed in. And we want to look at the toxic load. So really important if you women are listening and you want to dive in deeper and with fertility goals kind of being there or even energy your mood goals being there to write I recommend clicking down below you can schedule with Evan,, you can also schedule with Dr. J. Myself,, we’re here to help you here to serve. Here to educate, we recommend taking advantage of all the low hanging fruit, we try to provide tons of low hanging fruit in this day and age. Everyone has access to it based on you know, the internet and everyone having these smartphones that are so cheap. Now it’s great. So everyone can kind of get access to a lot of this great Intel and start applying it. And then if you want to dive in deeper if you want to start stop guessing and start testing and figure out what’s happening under the hood. That’s where I really urge you all to reach out. And if you’re enjoying the content, please refer us to friends and family and shoot over a podcast the best way you can thank us for all that we’ve done is just kind of send the content to your family and friends so they can get healthier. Evan, anything else you want to say man? 

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s all I want for Christmas is for everyone listening to share the podcast with your friends, your family, let’s make 2021 and even better, healthier year, less stress, less worry, more health, more vitality, it’s all possible. We try to give you guys action steps every time and this stuff is free. I mean, it’s a thankless job. So the best way you can think of sharing is caring. Thank you so much. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thanks, everyone. You guys have a phenomenal holiday season.


Audio Podcast:

Mold Problem?

Bio-Balance – 10% discount
Code: drj

Recommended products:

GPL Mycotox
Deluxe Mold Test Kit
Air Doctor Air Purifier
Whole House Dehumidifier

Mitochondrial Dysfunction & Other Causes of Chronic Fatigue- Mold & Candida Contribute | Podcast #287

Welcome to another episode of Beyond Wellness Podcast! For this episode, Dr. J and Evan Brand talk about chronic fatigue, which is a disorder characterized by extreme tiredness that doesn’t go away with rest. Because sometimes, chronic fatigue can also be associated with mold issues, Candida and etc. Check this podcast out. Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

1:06     Mitochondria

8:26    Toxins that damage Mitochondria

14:40   Mold Issues

22:22   How Mold and Candida affect Mitochondria

31:05   Nutrients and Vitamins

This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is itune-1.png


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we are live. It’s Dr. J here in the house with Evan brand. Today we’re going to be chatting about chronic fatigue, mold issues and other different causes that could drive chronic fatigue. Evan, how are we doing today? 

Evan Brand: I’m doing really well. We’ve got just a couple of papers on this. And we don’t really more than that, because we have so much experience now ever since I had my issues. And you and I started digging into this. It’s like you and I jumped into the mold whirlwind over the past few years together. And it’s been really fun learning and educating people simultaneously. We’ve implemented stuff in our houses that have been game changers for us. We’ve implemented stuff clinically, that have been game changers for others, but I believe this is one of the biggest triggers of chronic fatigue is mycotoxins and I experienced it personally and so I can tell you my own issue, I was exhausted and I’m still recovering from that and your exercise intolerance goes down and a lot of that has to do with the mitochondrial damage to happen. So could you just give us maybe like mitochondria 101 What like, how do they help people? Why are they so important? What happens when they get damaged and all that? 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, so your mitochondria, they exist inside of yourself, okay? And it’s going to generate ATP. And part of you know, so you have glycolysis, right? That’s going to be outside the cell where you’re kind of taking glucose generating energy. And then you have the Krebs cycle where you’re spitting out different amounts of hydrogen and ATP. And those hydrogens then now go into so you have these things called reducing agents, called FADHNAD and they gather up hydrogens, okay? And then these hydrogens, right, they enter the electron transport chain, they generate more ATP. So you have glycolysis to the Krebs cycle, right, or citric acid cycle, same thing. And then we have from there into the electron transport chain. And this is where we start to enter the mitochondria. And we need things like carnitine to help shuttle fat into the mitochondria. We need B1 B2 to help with fatty acid oxidation in the mitochondria, it’s part of how the mitochondria burns fuel to run the Krebs cycle and to get the electron transport chain set up we need B vitamins, we need magnesium we need carnitine like I already mentioned before, we need creatine we can use things like ribose we can use things like co q 10. These are all really really important nutrients that fuel these different metabolic pathways obviously, intermediary nutrients like Fumarate and malate and succinate. And then different amino acids are involved with the electron transport chain and or the citric acid cycle, Krebs cycle the leading up to it. So all of these pathways, they roll and they really help generate energy and generate ATP, which is that energetic fuel source. 

Evan Brand: And there’s a really good picture of the citric acid cycle some of the stuff that that you and I’ve learned from some of our books and study so we may be able to put that up in the shownotes to where people just want to download it look at it, I think it’s kind of cool because you could look at it and you could just quickly learn all the different nutrients that fuel each part of the cycle. So then I don’t want to say you could spot treat but for lack of a better word, you could kind of spot treat and go, Oh, magnesium, boom, I might be missing that be six. Oh, I might be missing that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% Yep. 100%. I’m gonna try to pull up a good picture for everyone to see here. So they can kind of wrap their head around it. A picture’s worth 1000 words. So if you guys can kind of understand the concept. I think that makes it a lot easier. I’ll pull that up here in a minute. Okay. All right, cool. Anything else you wanted to highlight on that before we dive in a little bit more? 

Evan Brand: Well, you mentioned a bunch of different nutrients. And so I think the most important part to pay attention to is that today we’re focusing kind of zoomed in. But you mentioned a lot of stuff that people could be deficient in for other reasons that we might not cover today. So parasite infections, bacterial overgrowth, any kind of dysbiosis. That’s not allowing the gut bacteria to produce some of these nutrients that may be involved. But that’s not the highlight of the show today. Today we’re focusing on other triggers and other causes. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 110%. Exactly. Very good. So of course, the first thing is we have things that enter the mitochondria. And that major nutrient, that major compound that’s going to enter that mitochondria is going to be acetyl co a, and acetyl. co a is made from fats, carbs and proteins. So the first thing I always tell people is we have to make sure we can digest and break down our fats, carbs and proteins. And we have to make sure we have good proteins, good fats, primarily carbohydrates. You know, of course, if you’re more active, you know, you can always do more safe starches and make sure you’re not doing too many grains and an inflammatory refined sugar. But we need good fats, we need good proteins because that performs and creates a really good building block for that acetyl. co a, and we need that for really, really, really good mitochondrial production. 

Evan Brand: Yep. Let’s dive into this study. This is really cool. One of my favorites, this guy, Dr. Brewer-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you don’t mind, I want to just hit one more thing. Just I want to set the table a little bit more for the listeners. Okay, let me just do this here real quick. All right. This is a really, really good picture. Can you see that on my screen yet?

Evan Brand: Yep, there it is. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, good. This gives you a pretty good idea. So the mitochondria is kind of the powerhouse of the cell. All right. And so when you look at energy, we first have the cytosol that’s outside of the cell. This is glucose. Glucose comes in glycolysis means breaking down glucose. glyco means glucose. And then license means breaking down. So we generate a little bit of energy here, ATP from glycolysis. Okay, then that then that little bit of energy then moves into the mitochondria. So this is the mitochondria here right now. So we have acetylcholine, acetylcholine then starts going into the Krebs cycle, that Krebs cycles in a turn twice and it’s typically forget exactly, I think it’s two to three NADH or going to be spit out for one fa, d h2. And this is going to turn around twice. And then these different electrons, these hydrogens that are collected from the Krebs cycle, the NADH and the FA, d h 22 to 3, NADH, one fA d h two going to enter the electron transport chain, and then more ATP is then created. So I want to say it’s like 36 to 39 ATP are created from glucose to Krebs cycle to electron transport chain, and I want to say it’s two or three for glucose. Like Allah says two or three for the Krebs cycle, maybe six for the Krebs cycle. And the electron transport chain is the majority where it happens. I want to say 33 or so I want to say it’s about 36 to 39 total ATP, per this whole thing and this is a mitochondria right here. So all most of this stuff happens in the mitochondria and then some of it happens outside in the cytosol. 

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s what I was going to ask you. So if someone has major mitochondrial issues according to this picture, it looks like you would still be able to generate some, but it’s going to be a minimal amount of ATP created from glycolysis. Is that true? 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct and then glycolysis is going to be dirty fuel right? So you’re going to get a lot more oxidative stress because of the advanced glycation end products that occur when you start making a lot of sugar right? A lot of sugar you coat your proteins right this increases oxidation oxidation and and then require more electrons to stabilize because when you when you oxidize something, right, think of cutting open an avocado, and it browns right or think about cutting open an apple and it browns, you’re losing electrons. That’s what’s happening there. Now you can easily go take a nice lemon or lime and squeeze the vitamin C from that on there, and that will prevent it from oxidizing. So the difference in your body is going to require a lot more antioxidant reserves. If you start creating a lot of oxidative stress, so glucose always burns dirty, okay, and there’s a really good book by Kristofferson called ‘Tripping Over the Truth’. And it’s a book all about mitochondria in glucose and cancer. So there’s a lot of data on this stuff already. So it’s really important to know that’s why we want to be more fat burners, good proteins and you can get carbs, you know, according to your metabolic needs. If you’re more active and, and you’re healthy, healthier and more fit and more lean and more active, then you can definitely add in some good high quality safe starches, but you really want to dial that in according to your metabolic needs. It’s not a set kind of size for everyone. 

Evan Brand: Very cool. Thanks for the picture. That’s awesome to see. So where do the toxins come into the picture? Well, the toxins are going to damage the mitochondria. So as you showed here, you can make some energy outside of the mitochondria. So you can still quote get by, but you may be exhausted if that Krebs cycle isn’t working properly due to potentially some of those nutrient deficiencies you covered that could be fueling the Krebs cycle. Maybe you’ve got infections or malabsorption issues going on. But we know that mold toxin damages the mitochondria law as well and actually sent you another paper in the notes if you wanted to look at it. It’s called mycotoxin its impact on gut health and microbiota. And this is pretty cool, because the end of this paper discusses that if you have good intestinal flora, they say here, it’s now well established that a healthy gut microbiota is largely responsible for the overall health of the host findings revealed that gut microbiota is capable of eliminating mycotoxin from the host naturally, provided that the host is healthy with a balance of good gut bugs. So long story short, and there’s a cool picture on that paper to just I don’t know if you can pull it up, but it’s called frontiers, cellular infection, microbiology, it’s a really cool picture of the gut and it just shows on the right that you’ve got all these different infections, like helicobacter, you’ve got E. coli, you’ve got reduction of beneficial bacteria, and therefore, the mycotoxins are not going to get treated as they should. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, I see that right here. Yep. So on that you see a whole lot bunch of decrease in good beneficial bacteria. I can share it right real quick here with y’all. You can see a decrease in a lot of your beneficial floor right here, man, you don’t see an increase in a lot of the pathogenic floor right here. And then of course, you have lipid polysaccharides. These are going to be your endotoxin that are the outer coating of the bad Gram negative bacteria. And then of course, you have more than mycotoxins. And of course, that’s going to stress out the microbiome stress out the immune system is going to increase gut permeability. The more gut more your gut is permeable, aka leaky gut, the more immune stress you’re going to have, because now your immune system is interacting with compounds and toxins that normally wouldn’t Is that correct? 

Evan Brand: Yep, that makes perfect sense. And this makes sense of why probiotics can be beneficial right out of the gate. A lot of people discuss and you and I discussed binders and Bluetooth ion and fixing the environment and all of that, but I mean, this shows here that bumping up your good bacteria is going to be a critical component to so I personally implemented a 50 to 100 billion have some multi stream probiotics and I have felt better. Is that the magic here? No, I’m doing a lot of things, but it has been pretty beneficial.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% Yep, pull up that pull up that Brewer paper. Now I think that’s going to be the next thing we should talk about. So let’s go over that. 

Evan Brand: This is crazy. This is crazy. So if you scroll down, long story short, in clinic, Brewer and some of his associates in this in this paper, they were testing using urine testing, which is what Justin and I run in clinic as well. We do a urine mycotoxin screen. And right here on the first page. It’s crazy says right here that urine specimens showed that 93% of his chronic fatigue patients these are known chronic fatigue sufferers. 93% of those were positive for at least one mycotoxin

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct. So if you look here, right, here’s 112 patients 93% had at least one mycotoxin, again you have different mycotoxins, you have the aflatoxin- This is common like peanut stuff okra toxin and then you have the tri coat the scenes which is common in the in the black mold the Stacie buttress black mold, okay, so these different toxins we can actually test and now it’s important. Some people may test these things and they don’t do a really good glute. If I don’t push people that have really poor to toxification they may not push these things out. So you really want to make sure a couple of days ahead of time you do a good Bluetooth ion push and and even that you may just want to even look at the home too and do a really good play test on your home. Again, we use immunologic labs, we’ll put some links down below if you guys want to procure those tests, but some people they may have a hard time pushing it out. So yeah, so number one is I always recommend do a glutathione push. If you feel achy or really bad or brain foggy or tired or fatigued that could be a good time. Also, if you have a lot of mold in the home, especially molds that have these mycotoxins The nice thing about the amino Linux. It’ll tell you if these mycotoxins are produced by the species of mold they find so they see Aspergillus, or different mold that can be produced during water damage, then usually there’s an oak, there’s usually going to be a mycotoxin attached to it. There are some molds that are natural, like in soil and just plant degradation outside. Those are different some more from pet dander and those kind of things. So you’re able to get a window into all those things, as well. 

Evan Brand: Yeah, and I just want to say one comment about the push. When I first did my original mycotoxin urine screen, I did do Bluetooth ion for maybe three days and I guess that wasn’t enough because my Michael phenolic acid, which is a mycotoxin that comes from Penicillium, which I was exposed to my level was a 12, which was in the red range, but it was just barely. And then when I retested six months later after trying really hard and doing sauna therapy, which is another way you could actually do provocation. If someone doesn’t have glue defi on, you could do a sauna session, then collect urine, that could also help but six months later, my levels went from a 12 to a 1700 my levels were off the chart, even though I’d been trying for six months to get it out, and I did feel better. Some may look at that. And I’ve had some clients, you know, call me and they’re like, I’m crying. I’m freaking out, my levels went up what’s going on, and we explain most of the time, that doesn’t mean new exposures happen. That just means you’re getting better at detoxification, and you’re pushing more out. And that’s what happened to me. So my levels were really, really low. Six months later, they were really, really high. And then another six, eight months later, they were low again, indicating that I did actually detox it and push it out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. Now part of the reason why we were able to stick with it is because we knew that you had high levels of mold in your old home, correct? 

Evan Brand: Well, so it was a crawlspace exposure. Looking back at the plates. The house was minimally bad honestly, what I think happened based on talking to Scott force grant, he his theory on it is that my tick bites that I got sort of set the mold in motion because I had the most exposure when I was a kid hanging out in my grandmother’s house. Were her babies basement flooded many times. And I remember going down there and smelling musty basement. So I guarantee you, I’ve had mold toxin, you know, just because I’m genetically unable to detox it like a lot of people are, I probably had it since I was a very, very young child. But his theory was that the tick bites basically weaken the immune system enough to allow the mycotoxins to really take me down. Whereas before, I may have had some symptoms, but it wasn’t as it wasn’t as brutal. So it was the combination of tick bites, and then some more recent mold exposure, that kind of retriggered things. Yeah, and I think it was just the straw that broke the camel’s back. I think it was a combination because I didn’t really get exposed to that much upon looking back at my plates and comparing those to some of my clients. I’m like, you know what, this wasn’t that bad. I mean, we had a though, I remember them being more high. So everything in the house was in single digits. It was just the crawlspace that was in double digits. And then once we did the fog treatment, everything was back to normal but what really screwed me is when we modified the the hva system. And we were trying to circulate the air in the crawlspace. Better. So the ductwork was changed to make a complete loop system from the crawlspace, sucking that air pumping that air into the house, and then the house pumping back in. So it was a continuous loop. And that’s what really screwed me because that setup wasn’t there before. And that’s what really cranked the levels up. And that’s where, even after we did an initial treatment, the levels went way up. Because now we were bringing in bad air into the breathable air. And so once we reverse that correctly, so if I remember correctly, is you had this crawlspace right, there was mold in the crawlspace. That was really high. The rest of the house was okay, but there was a lot of whole mold in the crawlspace they fixed the ventilation part of the home before they treated the crawlspace. Is that correct? Yeah. So we Yeah, we treated the home silly. I mean, absolutely. I can’t believe that happened. I’m just like, How the heck did these guys screw that up? I know, I know. So So then we treated it again though. And then the reverse the duck system that we had put in we reversed all of that. And then treated it again. And then it was fine. So technically, I could have stayed because the plates were incredible after that, but I needed a bigger house. Anyway, we had another kid come in. So it was a good excuse for me to just say, hey, let’s just go ahead and leave. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right but that was a big trigger for you. And then I think even in the new home that was still a little bit more mold that came back on that home to right near the retreat that address. 

Evan Brand: Yeah, yeah, we treated this house as well. We had some high colonies near the kitchen, which is potentially from the kitchen empties out into a screen room. So if those screen doors were always open, bringing bringing in outside air outdoor molds over time can accumulate in the house and make mycotoxins so yeah, we’ve we’ve treated it and now we just do some of the maintenance solution and we do some of the candles and such and now we’ve got it under control. So and then-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Also in general, you have the dehumidifier put in so then the humidity is now a lot less in the home. So that helps so there’s less breeding ground for it. And then you also just have air filtration throughout the home. So even if things were to come in your filters would naturally grab it anyway. 

Evan Brand: Yeah, I would assume my house is probably one of the few in Kentucky that doesn’t have mold in it because even with our whole house dehumidifiers, I mean, it’s pouring rain as we speak right now the ground rarely dries out because we have so much rain here lately. And even with the whole house dehumidifiers running, we’re barely keeping the house at 50% 45 to 50% humidity if you didn’t have those Running Man, who knows outside right now is like 86% humidity. And you and I’ve discussed this many times on the podcast, but you know, if you have humidity levels above 50% continuously in your home, you don’t have to have a water event. You don’t have to have a dishwasher overflow or a toilet leaking. Just the high moisture from the humidity alone can create mold, and that’s what happens in many homes that you and I’ve tested. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, it really happens in areas where the temperature is just a little bit low. So you don’t have the AC because the AC will act with a natural dehumidifier but it’s temperature driven where humidifier is humidity percent driven. So I had a little bit of so if you have a you know 65 or 70, and it’s not quite triggering the AC, that’s where you really get screwed, but it’s not cold enough, not hot enough to trigger an AC but it’s also very humid 6065 70 or it’s just a basement area where basements are really cool but humid, that’s where you really need it because then if you get a humid basement, that’s cool. Well guess what it’s going to that ventually those molds are going to go upstairs to the rest of the home even if the rest of the home is is you know nice in and low humidity because of the air conditioner. So having a dehumidifier is important. I had a little bit of water issues over the weekend I was changing my water filter. And there was like three vowels you have to turn off. I only turned off two out of the three so it leaked a bit. Nothing bad I you know, got three or four towels cleaned it up. But what I did is I went in crank that dehumidifier down to 40%. And within two, three hours, any residual water that was hanging out was all evaporated, gone. But if you had 60% humidity in that basement, that water would just sit there for days on end. Once that water sits for 48 hours. It’s gonna start raining mold toxins. 

Evan Brand: Yeah, I’m glad you got the dehumidifier too. That’s, that’s pretty much essential for where we live with higher humidity. So, back to the chronic fatigue thing. So let’s keep going back on this paper because this is what I had.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you want you can go share your screen here, Evan, you can share your screen if you like. Evan, are you there? Can you hear me? I lost that and guy, so I’ll wait for him to kind of come back on here. I’ll just keep on riffing. While we are waiting for him. I’m just gonna give him a message here.

All right, awesome. So just chatting with Evan here on the on the side here. He’ll be back on the show in just a minute. Let me keep rolling with you guys. So in general, we have the mitochondria we have different mold toxins that can affect and poison the mitochondria. One of the things that we get with fungus or mold is we get things called oxalates. And oxalates can enter the mitochondria enter the Krebs cycle, and make it harder for that Krebs cycle to work and harder to generate energy. So of course, that’s going to be a big component to stressing out the mitochondria. So when we look at molds coming into the end environment, whether it’s mold from outdoors, whether it’s molds or fungal because it kind of have molds, right, and then you have different things like funguses in your gut like Candida, they kind of have a similar mechanism where they’re going to affect and poison the mitochondria. and different things like that can create oxalate and they can really make it harder for the mitochondria to generate ATP. 

I’m going to show a couple of articles here I got an article on mold and how it can affect or Candida and how it can affect the mitochondria. I’m gonna pull this up with you guys here right now so you guys can see it. So this is interesting right here, you guys can see my screen chronic intestinal candidiasis as a possible ecological factor in chronic fatigue syndrome. We talked about Candida syndrome, also known as Candida related complex, putatively caused by an overgrowth of Candida, so that’s an overgrowth, not the Candida is not ever going to be there. It should be there and maybe at very low levels, it’s the significant overgrowth. That’s the problem.

And essentially in response of large number of patient with chronic fatigue to an oral antifungal agent, there’s evidence that Candida infection of the mucous membranes depress our T cells and natural killer cells. Similar abnormalities of the immune function are found in chronic fatigue. So it’s altering our immune function. So our body’s ability to deal with an immune response and deal with infections and deal with stress is going to be impaired big time. This is this is really, really, really important to kind of highlight and then it says, um, and it’s important in preventing reactions like epstein barr cytomegalovirus, herpes virus, there are other viral infections that could play a role with chronic fatigue. Right? And again, with chronic fatigue, the question is what comes first? Is it the chicken or the egg? In other words, when you have a an infection, is it the infection is cause is the underlying cause or did you have a weakened immune system leading up to the infection that caused the problem to begin with. 

That’s really what the underlying issue is, did you get the infection first? Or did the infection come as a result of the weakened immune system, and I’m not sure if it matters too much, we always try to line up what the what the likely causes. But we know here things like Candida and gut issues can affect the T cell and the natural killer cell, this is going to be our th one branch of the immune system. So our th one or those kind of special forces, they get in there and really do a lot of killing ahead of time. And they kind of the first line defense of the immune response. That’s like kind of really, really, really important to highlight and then it talks about here. And so then when you have a compromised immune system, other parasites other viral issues may be an issue then mold may be more of a problem. So now when you get exposed to mold, you may have been able to whip through it no problem you adapted to a bun now it’s like dang I think really knocked on your butt. So then said yes. The immune dysfunction found in the sorter has been considered the primary underlying cause. So this imbalance of cytotoxic T cell and T helper cells and natural killer cells is the underlying cause. It proposed that the chronic intestinal combat is maybe an agent, which leads to the immune depression in many chronic fatigue patients, and therefore, it could be a causal factor in chronic fatigue. So a lot of times we have the guts stuff leads the way. Okay, the guts stuff leads the way and then everything else happens after that, that makes sense. All right, excellent. Excellent. Very good.

I’m going to just take a pause here for one second. We lost Evan here, so I’m gonna see if I can get him back on the show as we chat. All right, let’s keep on rolling. So we talked about some of the guts stuff now you can see some of these things here with Candida and mold. We can see the same thing with CBOE as well. All right, if we look at small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, SIBO and chronic fatigue, guess what we’re gonna see similar things and why? Why is it? Well, it’s because of the fact that the God is where 80% of the immune system lives this is important. So when you look at research, research suggests the high prevalence of SIBO among chronic fatigue patients, One study found 77% of chronic fatigue. patients had SIBO why because when you start to have gut issues, the immune system starts to get revved up, right. And when the immune system gets revved up, it gets weakened or you start to create an imbalance like that th one part of the immune system starts to become depleted. And when that th one becomes depleted, that’s going to make it harder for you to go after and deal with other stressors like SIBO like Candida like mold, right. This is why the gods plays a big role is because you have this tube.

That’s technically outside of your body yet when you swallow food, it’s technically outside of your body because when it goes into the bloodstream, that’s now inside, technically, it’s outside of the body, you’re have 80% of the immune cells in the golf, the gastric associated lymphoid tissue, that’s the part of the stomach. And then we have the mall. That’s the mucus associated lymphoid tissue that’s in the in the small intestine. And if you have stressors, whether it’s bugs or bad food that stresses out the immune system, the more chronically the immune system is stressed. It creates imbalances and makes it so other things that now encounter your body like mold or Candida or viruses like epstein barr mano, right? The kissing disease. Now that’s going to create more stress and really, really, really knock on your butt. So we always have to look at what the underlying root cause of everything is. So, so we don’t lose sight of that. So we always want to understand what’s the root cause? What are associated causes and just because it’s an associative cause, you still want to make sure you fix it. Because sometimesyou’re not really sure if there’s three or four different infection 234 different bugs, does it mean that hey, each one is 25% equal, maybe, sometimes one’s a bigger one. And we also have to make sure we set the table. So if there’s food or other issues that are driving the problem, to begin, we got to make sure we fix that. What if those things have created an autoimmune issue? And now you have Hashimoto is because of the mold or because of the bug issue. Right. And now, the thyroids been attacked for a decade. Well, now what do you got to do? You can’t just ignore the thyroid and be puritanical and say, well, the root cause is Candida. 

Therefore, if I only fix the root cause, then everything else should be fixed. No, you may still have to go in there and support the thyroid because the hormone levels have now dropped, or the adrenal levels now have dropped. So you, you, you know, it’s easy to be like, well, the root causes this, everything else goes downstream, yes, but you may have to come in there and support those other pathways so you can get better and feel better faster. If not, you may be suffering for a long time. Really, really, really important points. All right, I’m going to roll with questions guys and see where you’re at with everything. So in general, with foods, big things that are going to stress this out, if you’re eating lots of refined sugar, and you’re and you’re spitting out a lot of candy to the candy doesn’t make a whole bunch of lactic acid, and that can make it and though that can easily eat a lot of your B vitamins, so the more Candida and the more bugs we have, the more you’re going to be consuming and ripping up a lot of your B vitamins. So B vitamins are very important. When you have bad bacteria, it’s gonna make it a lot harder for you to consume a lot of those good healthy B vitamins because your bugs in your gut are going to be consuming it for you. That’s like super, super important bugs in your gut are going to be consuming it. Number two is the bacteria is and it produced toxins. And this is big because these toxins now put more stress on your guts. So put more stress on your detoxification pathway. 

So when you have a lot more gut toxins, like polysaccharide or endotoxin, or the different mycotoxins may be made by Candida, and now your detoxification pathways get stressed. And now the sulfur that your body needs to run detoxification pathway have to get up regulated, you’re going to need more B vitamins like b 12, and fold a and be sick. So you’re going to need more of those nutrients as well to run those detoxification pathways. And so that can also drive fatigue as well because if you’re really like your body only has so many so much resources, so if you’re really toxic, if you’re really toxic, your body’s gonna allocate a lot of the nutrients on the B vitamins side or the sulfur side that may plug into the mitochondria. ….. ossification have less resources over here. So just just very, very, very, very important to keep that in the back of your head. Okay, awesome. Okay, very, very good.

All right, excellent. So it’s very, very important to really keep an eye on all the resources here because the more stressed your detoxification pathways gets, they’re going to pull a lot of that sulfur, they’re going to pull a lot of the B vitamins, and those are all nutrients that would plug into that mitochondrial pathway to begin with. So really, really, really, really important. You need so for people forget you need sulfur to actually make a lot of your dopamine and adrenaline. So dopamine and adrenaline. You need good sulfur. All right. And so if you if you’re chronically stressed, you’re going to be making a lot of adrenalin and eventually you’re going to be depleted because you’re not going to have that good software to take dopamine to norepinephrine, epinephrine, so you deplete sulfur because when you have dope mean that’s your feel good neurotransmitter you feel good, helps you focus. It’s a good reward center neurotransmitter, and that will go downstream, the more stressed your app is epinephrine, norepinephrine, that’s basically adrenaline or catecholamines. And these things are going to get very, very depleted, the sulfur will, will get very, very depleted, the more you’re chronically stressed, and then you’ll have less sulfur. And then the less sulfur you have, you’re going to have less building blocks for glutathione for your methylation, for all your detoxification nutrients, so it really plugs in. You want to look at everything holistically, so it all makes sense. All right, wonderful. All right, guys. Hey, phenomenal chat with you. If you guys enjoy today’s podcast talking about Candida talking about mold and mycotoxins connecting it to the mitochondria connecting it to energy. These are all very, very important components and on how and why everything you know is vitally important, why it all connects. So in general, co q 10. Very important, you know, anywhere between 100 to 500 milligrams a day. B vitamins, you know, a good high quality B Complex especially if we see on an organic acid test more forming a glutamate or more methylmalonic acid that tells us B12. And it also tells us full later benign, we may see things like xanthi urinator, kind of urinate which tell us B6 is important because B6 helps with our brain it is needed for the synthesis of neurotransmitters, right serotonin and dopamine. So if we don’t have good neurotransmitters that’s gonna really really affect our body’s ability to sleep to deal with stress mood, our adrenals right B five is a really important one pens authentic acid, we need it for our adrenals and also plugged into our mitochondria. Krebs cycle amino acids like I’ll see on these mitochondrial tests, we’ll see low sulfur like we’ll see low sulfate or low power of glutamate, or we’ll see low Pokorny, which is a sign of lower amino acids and these amino acids plug in to the Krebs cycle. 

And you can see here I’ll try to pull it up on screen how the amino acids plug in, but there’s a bunch of amino acids and the Krebs cycle. I’ll try to pull it up here. Now, why is this important? Well, because if you have poor digestion, because of mold, because of Candida, guess what’s going to happen to your body’s ability to break down protein? It’s going to drop, it’s going to significantly drop. Okay, I’m going to pull this up here so you guys can see how amino acids plug in. They plug in significantly. Okay, I got it right up here for you guys. Alright, cool. Let me just show this to you guys so you can see it. So this is what the Krebs cycle looks like. Okay, so you have remember this is the glucose here is in the site is all that’s outside of the mitochondria. Okay. All right, and then this stuff here comes in glucose phospholipids animal pyruvate pyruvate to acetylcholine. Now this starts to enter into the mitochondria, so sudo Coase now in the mitochondria, so look at these building blocks a Piru a to acetal koi look what it is people listening here we have a video version two so you guys can see my screen alanine cysteine glycine serine three Nene trip the fan right I so loosing all these things are big these are all essential amino acids that plug in to pyruvate and the seal co a and these kind of provide the building blocks to ratchet through your Krebs cycle and this thing is going to turn around twice. So you have saturate the ISO citrate and then you have alpha ketoglutarate more glutamine more prolene more histidine more origin and get plugged in. Then you have [inaudible] when you have more isoleucine more veiling right these are branched chain amino acids. Now this is part of the reason why working out with branched chain amino acids helpful refining 3d and then it goes from succinylcholine to succinate or we have tyrosine and phenyl alanine, which helps dopamine and adrenaline and then Fumarate to melee, melee to oxaloacetate, which is aspirin gene and aspartate. And then it plugs right back into we’ll see the code so you can see how that works. All right, you can see how that works very, very important amino acids. So if we have very poor, if we have very, very poor digestion, we have low hydrochloric acid, we have low enzymes, that’s an a play a really, really big role in this whole thing. So getting your enzymes and your stomach acid up really having a clean diet, really breaking down your food, and then really working with a good practitioner to look at the mold toxins or the gut stress the Candida in the gut. Right, and it’s more of an overgrowth, maybe looking at SIBO maybe looking at H. pylori or other gut infections. Looking at the environmental mold, if there is mold, how do we fix it right? What’s the root cause of that mold? Is it a muted humidity issue? Do we just need an air filter? Do we have to do a bio balance protocol in the home to get the mold level down right? So we have to look at the whole picture so we get to the root cause I hope that makes sense. 

Any other questions? Feel free I’ll chime in and try to answer them here for y’all. I think we got most stuff here that’s on point kind of already dialed in. So if you guys want to reach out to Evan, is a console link you can feel free and schedule. Also head over to my site to schedule a consult with myself if you want to dive in deeper we’ll put links down below. If you guys enjoyed this content, share it with friends and family make sure you subscribe hit that like button hit the bell so you get notifications. It’s phenomenal chatting with y’all really appreciate it. Just do me a favor try to apply some of this information so that you can make yourself healthier. It’s really important when you’re healthier. You become a better parent, a better person a better employee, a better boss, and it just it really helps the whole world get better the healthier you get the whole world gets better. Alright guys, it was phenomenal chat and you guys have a great day. Take care. Bye


Audio Podcast:

Air Pollution In Your Home: What To Do About It

By: Dr. Justin Marchegiani

When we think of air pollution, we typically think of car exhaust and chemical factory gasses. However, you may be surprised to learn that indoor air is often MORE toxic than the air outside! This is really put into perspective when you realize average America spends about 90% of their life indoors. So, what can you do to make sure your indoor air is healthy? Today we’re going to dive into common airborne toxins in your home, and how to create a healthy indoor air environment!

Indoor vs. Outdoors Air

A growing body of scientific research is pointing to indoor air as more polluted than outdoor airand yes, this even takes into account the air outside in overpopulated, industrialized cities. Since most people spend about 90% of their lives indoors, this points to indoor air as a seriously underlooked health issue. What makes matters direr: those who are most susceptible (the young, the sick, the elderly) are generally the ones who spend the most time indoors.

Click here to learn how to take your health to the next level!

Air Pollution In Your Home: What To Do About It

Common Effects of Indoor Air Pollution

If you suffer from the following symptoms, it’s time to re-evaluate the air you’re breathing:

  • Respiratory problems (cough, chest pain, sneezing, congestion, chronic sinus issues, sore throat, breathing difficulty)
  • Digestive issues (bloating, gas, constipation, diarrhea, nausea)
  • Skin problems (rash, itchiness)
  • Fatigue, dizziness, headache, sensitivity to noise and light
  • Cognitive function problems (concentration, memory, sleep, mood)

Air Pollution In Your Home: What To Do About It

Common Indoor Air Toxins

There are a couple of main factors that make indoor air 2 to 5 times more toxic than outdoor air. One of these factors is the lack of ventilation inside the house, which leads to a buildup of toxic compounds. 

Smoke: If a smoker lives in your house, the risk of secondhand smoke exposure should not be overlooked. The CDC has reported millions of deaths due to health problems caused by secondhand smoke exposure.

Mold: Mold and mildew can be deadly, and oftentimes go unnoticed. It is crucial to take the presence of mold in your home seriously. Professional remediation, and in some cases even changing residence, may be necessary. 

Household Products: If you haven’t already read my article on fragrance as the new secondhand smoke, you’re in for an eye-opening experience. “Fragrance” is listed as an ingredient on at least 75% of mainstream products, ranging from shampoo to toilet cleaner. The word “fragrance” signifies a secret cocktail of hundreds of toxic chemicals that are not subject to safety testing. However, many of these chemicals are known neurotoxins, cause respiratory problems, behavioral issues, and autoimmune disease. When you start using household cleaners and personal care items that contain chemicals such as fragrances, these particles are trapped in the air and you are subject to constant inhalation. 

Chemicals: Most people now know that asbestos is nothing to play around with. Asbestos has been linked to lung cancer, Unfortunately, it still lingers in the insulation, paints and floor tiles of many homes. However, asbestos is not the only dangerous compound in your home.

Your furniture, pillow and mattress, carpet, and even the paint on your walls probably contain VOCs, volatile organic chemicals. These household objects outgas dangerous chemicals that stew inside your home and are linked to cancer, heart disease, and lung disease. 

And more: There are some things that occur naturally and generally harmlessly in nature (pollen, animal dander, pest leavings), but become problematic when they make their way indoors. The lack of ventilation and fresh air allows allergens to fester and grow. 


Air Pollution In Your Home: What To Do About It

Steps for Healthy Air Inside Your Home or Office

While the dangers of indoor air pollution sound scary, luckily there are many things you can do to improve the air quality of your home and office.

  • Open your windows: This is easy and free! Turning on fans to get the air circulating will do a lot to help move inside air outside, and to bring fresh air inside your house.
  • Swap your products: Check the ingredients of the household and personal care products that you buy. Avoiding chemicals, like ‘fragrance,’ will do a lot to bring down the synthetic chemicals in your air.
  • Air out new furniture: When you buy new furniture, a new mattress, a new rug, etc. you may have noticed a particular smell that diminishes over time. Rather than letting these toxic gasses released into the air you breathe, put the item either in your backyard, on your porch, or in the garage for a couple of days.
  • Get a quality air filter: The Austin Air Filter is one of my favorite home air filters; I myself use the Austin Air filter in my home. These cutting edge units are ideal for individuals or families with severe allergies and asthma, chemical sensitivities, or chronic illnesses such as COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease).
  • Test for mold: If you suspect you have mold, I urge you to have a professional test. Mold is a leading cause of many autoimmune and chronic fatigue conditions.

Do you have any questions about indoor air quality? If so, leave them in the comments below, or let me know on my Facebook page or YouTube channel, where I answer all your health and wellness questions!

Still have questions about the air inside your home? Click here to talk to a professional!


Mold and Mycotoxin Remediation | Podcast #221

Mold can be a potential stressor that could be affecting someone’s ability to heal. It’s also a big rabbit hole of functional medicine because every symptom potentially could be mold.

In this episode, Dr. J and Evan Brand give us the updates on their battle with molds. Each of them shares with us their pre and post mold remediation results. Do you have mold, or do you have blood sugar, do you have hormonal issues or gut issues? What is it and how do you know? Continue and learn some ways to naturally address it.

Stay tuned for more!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

00:54    2 Biggest Variables to Know Mold is a Problem

04:57    Pre and Post Mold Remediation Results

13:16    Dehumidifier and Mold Issues that May Not be Due to a Leak

18:21    Mold Issues in Tropical Regions

29:10    For those Living in Apartment, Condo, Townhouse, etc.


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey guys, it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani here. Today is gonna be another podcast on mold remediation. I got my pre and post mold remediation results. I’m looking forward to sharing them with you all today. So, mold can be a potential stressor that could be affecting someone’s uhm, ability to heal. It’s also a big rabbit hole, rat hole of functional medicine because every symptom potentially could be mold. So, do you have mold, or do you have blood sugar, do you have uhm, hormonal issues or gut issues, right? What is it, how do you know?

So, off the bat, I found a little bit of mold here behind my stove top. We were able to remediate it in a way that was natural, meaning, we didn’t create more harmful metabolites and increase allergenicity or toxicity in the house with some of the metabolites that may form with some of the more conventional killing methods. So we chose a more natural approach to address the underlying issues.

So, first off, how do you know mold is actually a problem? So, do you have any active visible mold, that’s number 1. Again, that doesn’t tell you the whole story. Number 2, do we have any uhm, let’s just say leaks in the house, visible water stains, visible drywall damage, uhm do you have very high humidity in the house where you can almost s- almost smell or scents you may have some mold in the house? Does humidity get a very high? So, typically there’s gonna be an active leak, and/or, uhm, a very high humidity throughout the year, or certain times of the year that can cause mold growth. Those are gonna be the 2 biggest variables.

Outside, the potentially some insulation issues that can kind of create the same kind of thing. That’s gonna allow mold to form. And then of course, that can get into the household that can get into the ventilation of the house and that can kinda go systemic so you have one room with an issue and that can totally go systemic. Now my situation, we had a- issue, I think what it was, was the seal with the- the stove top, uh, water from previous owners had gone back behind the baseboard, and the actual uhm, the baseboard of the- the stove top in the cabinet in the drywall. So, kinda got right in between that area. Overall, we checked for moisture. Moisture reading are all coming back low, that’s a good sign that it’s not an active leak ’cause is- if it’s an active leak, or if it’s- you know, been going on for a long period of time and- and the underlying issue hasn’t been resolved, you’re gonna see the moisture readings coming back on the higher side. So, the great thing about that is, we can get a window into moisture being a problem or not if we see these moisture readings up high.

Number 2, uhm, we can kinda come back there and we can do some testing to quantify what’s going on. So, one of the big things that I do was uhm, mold plate testing to assess pre – the levels of mold I need to run. So, we did one in the basement, we did one in the kitchen, we did one upstairs, and it was the kitchen area that showed the highest. Everything was at 3 or below, and the kitchen was at 15 or higher, and we want everything to be below 5. So, we are good everywhere else, but we did comeback with a negative reading in the kitchen on our pre-reading. And actually, Evan just popped on the hang out, so, Evan, what’s going on man, today, we’re talking about mold remediation.

Evan Brand: Oh, good, good, good. I’m glad I made it. So, my- my appointment took less time than I thought it would, so I’m glad I could join in man.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. I’m gonna put you on my little headset here, just to get a better audio- audio quality set up.

Evan Brand: Good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So I’m just talking about some of uhm, what we found on the pre-testing. And, I’m gonna share screen to you in a little bit. And I know, you’ve done some pre-testing, you wanna share some of your pre-test info?

Evan Brand: I definitely could, yeah. I mean, here’s the thing that’s- that’s good about you, is that you weren’t really symptomatic. See, I’m like way, you know, ten times more symptomatic than you, so, you and I, we were talking off air, I was so glad that you preemptively figured out your problem before it made you sick versus me, I didn’t figure out my problem until I was already sick.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So, I didn’t have a big issue but I know mold is a stressor, it’s a big stressor in your stress bucket. I know for you, you didn’t have many symptoms at all for a long period of time until you got in contact with a whole bunch of mold. So, it’s not worth chancing it, right? So, that was one of the big things is taken that stressor out of our stress bucket. Yours came back really high in the pre-testing. Let me share my screen, so some people can see what my scores were. And then, today’s topic here will be mold remediation, it’s like part 3, I think, right?

Evan Brand: Yeah, I mean, err- this will be a never ending series, so, hope people enjoy it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I think it’s- it’s important because uhm, we found some really more affordable ways to address the situations which uhm, were phenomenal, because a lot of other ways are expensive-

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -and number 2, they sometimes can create more harsh metabolites that can be a stressor on the body, right?

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s the thing, these people go and, “Oh yeah, we heard the mold remediation guy down the street”, uh, but the problem is, uh, the- the guy down the street could be using toxic chemicals, you know, people talk about using bleach to wipe stuff down. I mean, it’s just terrible idea and that’s gonna make you way socker.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, 100%, exactly. So, let me just show you my screen here. This is my first test here that we did. And you can see the basement island was at 3, uhm, which was great because I actually had a little bit of uhm, baseboards that had some mold on them in the basement, but the guy that did the mold remediation said, “Yeah, that’s probably just from them sitting out in the lumber yard”. Initially it’s pointing out an active mold issue, it’s just kind of stained, right?

Evan Brand: Aah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And it seemed like he was right, so that was a 3, and then the master bedroom which is good, was a 2, and the kitchen island you can see was a 19. So, that was really on the higher side. And some of the mold that came back I think was more from a water type of species. What was that species refer to for the- for the water one?

Evan Brand: Uhm, aspergillus and penicillium, those are the 2 main ones, there could be others like fusarium-based mycotoxins but it’s usually aspergillus penicillium is a water damage boulding.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And then if you look on my post-testing, right? Here’s the dates, you could see my kitchen island is zero. So, like, nothing came back, and then look at the basement, uh, 1, and then the master came back at 1, and we’ve done previous podcast, so take a look at the previous ones on mold remediation which go more into depth on how we addressed it, but just in general, make sure the underlying cause of the leak is fully addressed. We topically hit the mold with 20% hydrogen peroxide which is very effective. And- and the formula that I use, the hydrogen peroxide plus parasitic acid, so was like a hydrogen peroxide-apple-cider-vinegar kind of mix, topically hit it, uhm, we cleaned it up first in a negative pressure environment, topicly hit it with the apple-cider-vinegar, hydrogen peroxide 20%, not the 3%, but the 20%-

Evan Brand: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -and it can burn your skin, so be very careful. And then we did a fogging, a dry fog solution of the citrusafe formulas which I’ll put links below, that are- are- ver- very effective. The benefit of- benefits of the dry fog is, it can get to a 1 to 10 microns size. So, that’s really-really tiny, can literally get in between your baseboards and the floor, it’s that powerful. So it gets in the nooks and crannies, and the cool thing is, you can leave all your clothes up, and all- all your furniture there ’cause you want that to topicly get treated. And when you spray it, it’s gonna kill it but then when it sits down, it’s gonna lay down on your clothes and on your walls and everything, and then as the mo- any potential mold particulate settles from the air and settles down on the ground gets what, there’s now a layer there that will kill any mold that falls to the ground.

Evan Brand: Yup, and I’ve got my reports now, I’m just tryin’ to get these downloaded here, so I can discuss this with you and we can share my screen and I’ll show you mine before and after-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes. Exactly.

Evan Brand: -I’m just trying to download here. Uh, I had more samples than you, uh, you know, I had- I wanna say maybe 6 or 7 samples total, uh, but then I also had a lot more insane difference in terms of my levels.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: So your levels were not too bad. Mine were pretty crazy. So that’s why I wanted to show these because I was just amazed. I- I- I saw- I was very skeptical, just to kinda educare people on-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -about what I did is that-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: -we did this enzyme solution that was like $5 a square foot.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah?

Evan Brand: I mean, I literally spent $10,000 out of pocket on that, and we got the plates back on it and the enzyme stuff did work, but the dry fog worked even better, and it’s so much cheaper.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, 100%. 100%. Let me see if I can get my camera back on me here…

Evan Brand: I see you so I think people should see you too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, let me just see here, I’ll just click over manually, no problem. Uhm, so, in general, yeah, you could see- the dry fog’s phenomenal because it’s a little bit more effective. Now, I can do my whole entire house, I got a pretty big house and I was able to do it for about a gallon. I got a- maybe- uh, 6,000 square foot house in change and like 1 gallon was enough to cover it. And I think that’s like right around a thousand dollars-ish for 1 gallon- for most. Most people are gonna be fine within a gallon or ha- or half a gallon, and it- it includes the dry fogger which is really cool and, I paid someone to do it, but I mean, I had in sight, uh, I could probably done it myself, it wasn’t too hard, it wasn’t too bad-

Evan Brand: Yeah. It’s not too hard, but I mean, at the same time, you know, you got a kid, you don’t wanna be-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh yeah.

Evan Brand: -in that environment with the kid and potentially breathing it in ’cause the fog, even though it is safe, it does deplete oxygen from the air, so I think you were better off in your case and my case, just to hire somebody to do it because you wanna make sure it’s done right too, ’cause, see if the fog wasn’t done thick enough, you know, that would be a problem too. So, uh- you know, you definitely did the right thing. Okay, I’ve got my report, you want me to share my screen here?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Do it, yeah.

Evan Brand: Alright. So, share screen… Okay, so there is you in the middle. So, uh, what we’re lookin’ at, let me get this even here so we can kinda compare apples to apples. On the left, you can see all these numbers. So, like attic, a bonus room which was uh, exposed to outside air, so that’s obviously gonna be higher, but then like a basement storage room, look at this. Basement storage, penicillium, on the left here, too much to count, too numerous to count. So we had some problems, look the kitchen, it was a 44.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Evan Brand: That’s really-really not good. So that- so let me go down and show you the pictures, look at how disgusting. So here is the before plates. Okay, and then here’s the after. So, now we got the kitchen down to a 7, but here’s the thing, the 7 sounds bad ’cause you want like 4 below, but when you look at the kitchen, uh, 3 of it is candida. And so we have a dog bed in the kitchen. So, 3 of it is candida. So if you take 2 penicillin to microsporum, really your score is a 4, ’cause you always subtract candida form the total colony numbers, see. So, 7, mine is 3, you get your 4. So, everything is really a 4. So, when you go back up the top and look at the numbers here, the C-room, I don’t remember which room that was, but C-room says a 6. So let’s go to that one-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: So, C-room, so that one still could use a little bit of work. See, so, C-room, you know, we only had a 1 candida, so that puts us at a 5, and optimal is 4 below according to the lab. But let’s look at the after pictures. So much better. Now, here’s the thing in this first one, you’re gonna look at this first on Justin, you’ll gonna be like, “Oh, my God, what happened?”. So, this is something interesting, this- this plate, I left it out, I- I didn’t shift it, soon enough to the lab. So, uh, what J.W. told me is that this is called second stage growth. So, this big black thing here or green thing in the corner, this is the penicillium, and which is only like a 1, but then it had babies.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Aah.

Evan Brand: So that’s the babies.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I see, that makes sense. And then, the candida isn’t necessarily as- as bad ’cause that’s what, that’s more of like a internal kind of uhm, mycotoxin than it is like in external environmental one, is that why?

Evan Brand: Well, so the candida is basically like on dog fur. So, the candida can just like come off the dog’s fur into the-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: -air, and then it’s in the air. But look at- I mean, look at the difference in the pictures, I mean, they’re equally disgusting in their own way, but you can tell that you’ve only got just a couple of species here, versus here, you’ve had a whole family of dis- disgusting-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. Totally. I’m just curious, what was the me- how do they make it grow? When they shine it under specific light that cause it to grow?

Evan Brand: Oh, you’re telling me, how do they get this and turn into this?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: Honestly it’s just time. If you pu- uh, if you have any extra plates out or you can order ’em, here, let me, stop sharing, I’ll come back to you now. Uh, so, if you just put a-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm…

Evan Brand: -plate like if you have an extra one, you can just leave one out in your kitchen today if you wanted and then just put- leave it on your countertop. Just sunlight, it’s- it’s the media that they use on that- on that plate that’s like a sticky substance. There’s something on that that makes it grow.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So-

Evan Brand: Any people that can’t afford to do the testing, they can just-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: -buy the plates, and then you can just watch the plates grow at your house. And if nothing grows, you’re- you’re good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, wow. That’s great.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, so in general we were able to do some pre and some post uhm to quantify it which was great. And it wasn’t too expensive to actually address the underlying issue. Now in your situation’s a little bit more unique, ’cause we’re on that, the climate’s a little bit more dry, but where you’re at is a little bit more hu- humid. So you ha- you had some water issues in general, but I think your new house didn’t necessarily have any water issues. So talk to everyone about what you did with the uhm, the humidifier to help rectify, uhm, mold issues that may not be due a leak.

Evan Brand: Right. So, if you’re 55-0, 50% relative humidity or higher, you’re gonna get mold growth, no matter what. And so, in the basement, we tested it and we were at around 56% humidity, which is really high, relative humidity. And so, we put it in a whole house dehumidifier. So, basically what it is, is it’s a- a dock work, you know, about this big around, and it hooks up to your dock work, and they cut a whole in your dock work so they have a return and a supplies. So, basically, what it does, is it kinda stills air from your dock work, pumps it through this dehumidifier, which is basically like- kinda like an air conditioning system-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Really?

Evan Brand: -t’s got a compressor-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -and all that in there, it takes the moisture out of the air, and then it pumps out drier air back into your dock work. Now, this is a whole house system versus, you know, some people-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -they get like a plug in… dehumidifier, but then you gotta drain the bucket of water. This- it’s completely hands off. I mean, I would be downstairs draining a dehumidifier bucket every couple hours if I didn’t have this system. So, this system has a little, uh, drain pipe that runs out of it, so it’s 24 runs- 24/7 or as needed. If it gets it down- the lowest that can go is to 40. So we actually- [crosstalk] switch 40%, no mold will grow there, and then it drains itself. So, I mean it’s- it’s a- the brain is called Aprilaire. That’s the one we did. So, a local, you know, heating and cooling company could install that if someone needed it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, the benefit of that is, you don’t have to constantly empty the- the dehumidifier with all that water because I mean, God forbid, you forgot for a couple days you may have a flood down there, with all these extra water coming back-

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -into the air.

Evan Brand: Good. The- that- that’s the one point of the second point is the ability to remove more air. So a portable dehumidifier is like for one room. You’re never gonna be to dehumidify a whole house with a little plugin job.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: Just like  you can’t de- you can’t uhm- you know, with one air, you know, like you and I, we ike a couple different brands of air filters, we wouldn’t just put one air filter and assume that’s-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: -gonna take care of the whole house.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. That totally makes sense.

Evan Brand: So, that’s why you needed it because, here’s the problem that people don’t understand, they’ll go like, “Okay, well-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -you know you and Justin talked about the dry fog, okay, I’m gonna do the the dry fog…”-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: -but there’s a disclaimer to that, which is that you can’t remediate your house if you stop the moisture problem, because if you’re a 55, 60% humidity and you do the fog, yeah, you’re gonna kill all the existing mold, and you’re gonna drop it down, but then it could just come right back. It could just regrow again if you’re 60%.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And speaking to J.W. at the lab, as well as, I think it’s Jeff Bookout, err- don’t go crazy in house if you don’t see any active water damage, and/or someone’s coming, and with a moisture meter and assess some of the- the walls and the various areas and there’s no actual active water damage where you can’t see anything, don’t stress out, it could just be a humidity issue. And then you just need this really good Whole House Dehumidifier, to fix the humidity issue. Does that sound right?

Evan Brand: It does. Yeah, so, you know, a lot of people, when they see those plates, you know, they may get concerned. So step 1 is really do plates, I would say step 2 is get a portable humidity monitor. I just bought one on Amazon, 10-11 bucks and you can just, you know, take it to a room, “Hey, what’s my bedroom? My bedroom’s 34%”, okay, perfect, you don’t have a problem. Uh, and then of course, it wouldn’t hurt if you- if you’re someone who has been sick, you know, we- you- you and I work with a lot of women who they’re stay at home moms, uh, housewives, so they’re home all the time, right? So, this is why some-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: -people, they quit their job, right? ‘Cause, “Oh, I- I’m so tired I can’t work”, so they quit their job. Now they’re- they’re home 99% of the time, at house that’s making them sick. So, if you have been sick, do the plates. It wouldn’t hurt to have like a roofer come by, check your roof, check your attic, make sure there’s no water getting in, I mean, the price you pay now for some of these stuff is 5 to 10 times cheaper than if you’re so sick, and now you’re tearing out walls, and now you’re doing major-major stuff, I mean, you can fix stuff before it becomes super problematic.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. Now, a lot pf people, if they have a Central Air system, that may be okay in the summertime because Central Air is gonna dehumidify the house essentially, correct?

Evan Brand: It does some. Yeah, but in- in our climate, uh, the Central Air would not be enough. We need more firepower than what-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk] Right, so- so essentially, what I was leading to was the fact that, okay, great, you know, it’s no longer the hot months, let’s say it’s 50 or 60 degrees out, or even 70 degrees out, that may not be hot enough to have the Central Air on but you still have a high level of humidity. So, I think where the dehumidifier comes in, is when, okay, it’s not really hot enough to have the AC on, that’s where the dehumidifier matters ’cause you’re not really changing the temperature at all, which the AC will change to temperature and remove humidity at the same time, but you’re just focusing on the reduction in humidity, is that correct?

Evan Brand: That’s right, yeah. So, even in in the winter here, you know, we’re running the heat, so theoretically the heat would dry out the moisture, we were still at 56% humidity. So-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow!

Evan Brand: -that tells you in the summer, I mean, it could’ve been 70, 80, I mean, who knows? I mean, if you’ll look at like average humidity in Kentucky, I mean, outside in the summertime, it’s 80, 85% humidity. There’s no way you can live here and not have a moisture problem unless you dehumidify, that’s my opinion.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I think this is really important. So, if you’re living in an environment, ’cause I have a lot of patients that live in tropical environments too, where they’re like, “I don’t have a water leak, I’m good”, but it’s like, yeah, humidity is up and you probably need a dehumidifier. Maybe even a dehumidifier on top of top uhm, the AC unit. I mean, I- I wonder how much- ’cause like, with your unit, that’s gotta sep- uh, separate piping where it gets that moisture out. You probably even need a separate thing if you really live in a tropical climate where there’s even higher humidity.

Evan Brand: Oh, man, you would have to like we have run. I’d have a few clients in Hawaii since all these stuff happened to me and you and I not being going down this rabbit hole together. And we’ve tested people in Hawaii, I’ve had ’em just buy this little humidity monitor, I mean, we’re seeing people’s homes at 78%, 76%, it’s like, “my God”, mold forms at 51%. So, if you live in Hawaii and you got the beautiful beach house in paradise, it doesn’t matter. Now, Jeff, on the podcast we did, he claims that saltwater, uh, if- if your home is being filled with moisture due to saltwater, it theoretically it would keep the mold count down. So he says that at- you know, once you go a hundred miles inland, so the beach front should be good because it’s salt water, just coming in the home through the air, not like lake water. But he says a hundred miles inland or a hundred fifty miles inland, that’s where we would see a band of problems.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Aah…

Evan Brand: However, however, it’s so very interesting, however, I’ve seen people that have houses on the beach, they have mold problems. And even, uh, Erin Elizabeth, Dr. Mercola’s partner, she’s been posting on some of her Facebook pages about her house. So her- her and Dr. Mercola, oop, sorry, notification ding, uhm, her and Dr. Mercola, they live on- on the beach in Florida and they’ve got stachybotrys, they’ve got black mold right now-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Evan Brand: -and they live on the beach.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah I guarantee you-

Evan Brand: They live on the beach so-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah and they- they probably need a dehumidifier as well.

Evan Brand: Oh man, I- I mean, so- so- so- you know, when I talked with Jeff, he said, “Yeah, you know, the beach is not a problem but I- I’ve proven it not to be the case. I- I’ve proven the beach can’t be a problem, and these Hawaii houses, you’ve got no other option but to have dehumidifiers running all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah we see people in the notes talking about humidifiers. Just make sure it’s uhm , we differentiate, right? Humidifiers are what we do to add moisture to the air. So in my house I actually have a Whole House uh, humidifier ’cause it gets so dry like around 10 to 15%. It’s just your skin gets super dry ’cause the moisture is so low. So we actually have a humidifier where I am. So just make sure dehumidifier, we’re removing moisture, we need the high levels of moisture about 50 for mold to grow, we’re removing it, uh, humidifier, we’re adding it. So a lot of times like with infants they may have drier, you know, sinuses, whatever, we may add humidity to it. And actually, one thing we did is that, one point we left the humidifier on too long, we actually got mold growth in one of the carpets. We had to like-

Evan Brand: Oh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We had to like clean it up and throw it away. So be careful even if you have the humidifier on, you’d really wanna make sure the humidity isn’t get too high ’cause then you’re gonna have mold growth.

Evan Brand: Good call. Well, especially if that humidifier is like sitting on a night stand over carpet versus if it were like-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s what happened to us! That’s what happened.

Evan Brand: Oh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup, exactly.

Evan Brand: See, ’cause if you had a hard wood under it, or- or- or like maybe it were uh, like in a bathroom next to the main room and the- and- and the bathroom floor was tile, maybe that moisture wouldn’t do- do damage and create mold on the tile, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well that’s if you had hard wood beneath it, so-

Evan Brand: Oh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -we just picked the carpet up, we rolled it up and just throw it away and then just, uhm, clean the uhm, the wood with a really good citrus solution to kill everything.

Evan Brand: Okay, okay. Uh, so we had a question from Missy. She was asking, “How do you know if the fog is thick enough?”, uh, you can’t see your hand in front of your face, Missy. Uh, I was- at my house when Jeff fogged it for me, and I laughed so hard because he uh- he said, “Evan, if you have people ask you, how thick does it need to be, it needs to be this thick”. So we went down my staircase and when he stepped off the bottom stair, it looked like he went to another dimension. I mean, I couldn’t even see him, he was gone. I’m like, “Where’d you go?”. [Laughs]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. You sent the pictures and the videos, I mean, that was hilarious.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Technology is so great because, you know, I think- I mean, if you topicly have mold though, I mean you probably wa- you wanna hit that up. You probably want a higher professional because some of the solutions are very-very costic, but if you don’t have actual water damage, uhm, you know, and you can have an easy solution of getting a dehumidifier in the house, and potentially even fogging it your- yourself, it wouldn’t even be that bad, I mean, I know that I am- the Immunolytics guy, they have some pretty good instructional videos walking through everyone how to do it.

Evan Brand: Yeah, it- it- it- it is definitely this is all do it yourself unless you have damaged materials like you said, then you’ve gotta take out walls and put in new drywall, whatever, remove carpet in your case-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And it has to be done- the carpet situation wasn’t that big of a deal but, ’cause it was isolated we knew what it was but, when we have the water damage in the wall, we needed to have the whole entire remediation done in a negative pressure environment ’cause you don’t want everything to go systemic. So the negative air pressure keeps everything isolated and- and pulls it out versus let’s say sprays it all around.

Evan Brand: Yeah, yeah, good call. So yes, you could do s- this stuff yourself, you could hire it all out, I think it really just depends on your budget, and then it depends on your illness, right? I was so symptomatic, I did not wanna chance doing something wrong, I needed my environment, this is my work, environment, this is my home environment, I couldn’t take any chances because I won’t be on this podcast, you know, if I were- if I were too sick. So, I needed- my health was like number 1. So, for me, I just hired him. I’m just like, “Hey, you- you gotta do it for me, I- I couldn’t take any risk”.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh yeah. And because we have a lot of home offices, you know, was- it worked out as a nice business expense which, you know, we- we’re here all the time. So, that was good, we were able to utilize that. Uhm, but people that aren’t at home as much, you may not notice an issue as much. I know you did, you worked at home, but the fogging is a really good option to a- do it yourself if you need which is great.

Evan Brand: Here’s the thing. Even if someone works outside of the home, right? Like they’re 9 to 5 or in a typical office setting, they still sleep at home for 8 to 10 hours-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: -at night. So, like, even if you’re like, “Oh, well my house is bad but I’m out at the office all the time, I work all the time”, well, so what you’re still at the house sleeping for those 8 hours, and we know that mold exposure reduces melatonin production, it reduces nitric oxide productions so you have uhm, decrease circulation, I think it may be a contributor to sleep apnea, and insomnia, and other sleep problems as well. So, you can’t justify not doing anything because you work outside of the home. You still gotta fix it ’cause at your- at your environment where you’re sleeping and where you’re trying to rest and recover, your glymphatic system kicks in and detoxes you, and that all just gets disrupted if you have mold in your bedroom.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And uhm, I spoke with, I think it was J.W. and Jeff Bookout, they talked about the more conventional products like the Concrobium, which I spoke with some of the mold remediation guys, you know, Concrobium is an extract from, I think Olive leaf.

Evan Brand: Oh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And they were talking about it being little bit more natural but it seemed like uhm J.W. work from Im- Immunolytics lab was talking about the fact that it can create some more hyper allergenic metabolites that people could react to. Do you have any insight on that?

Evan Brand: I- I don’t. I- I’ve just would say that I’ve had people who said, “Hey, I’ve already remediated using that”, and they still were symptomatic. But that’s all I can tell you, it’s just a couple clients said, “Yeah I’ve already done that, it didn’t work”, so, uh, here’s another interesting thing that- that him and I talked- talked about is when- when they were mixing all these blends for the fog, I don’t know if I’ve told you this already, if I did I’ll tell you again, but when they were trying to come up with the formulation for this stuff, certain uh- certain ratios of essential oils made the mold problem worse. So they would do a plate, build a- build a- a supplement basically, fog it and then retest and, “Oh my God, the mold is way worse”. So then they would tweak it again, “Oh, the mold is still worse” and they’d-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Evan Brand: -finally kept tweaking it, and then finally there’s the perfect ratio, boom, now we see that acts- takes numbers down not up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Very-very interesting. And then, one of the things I wanna highlight is that a pre to post testing on the air. So, they would do air samples. Mine actually went up higher after the remediation-

Evan Brand: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -which is interesting but, he- the- the gentleman that did the remediation said my levels were so low, uhm pre and post anyway, it wasn’t even an issue. But the plate testing showed high in the kitchen, and then at significant drop, lika I showed you on the testing from I think what I say, 16 to 0, or 19 to 0. So-

Evan Brand: Wow.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -the plate testing I feel like they were, you know, they really showed the difference pre and post where the air didn’t quite give that range, even though it went up it wasn’t that big of a deal. And, I think from what I understand, ’cause you’re- you’re sucking uhm, air, so, I think-

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -you could pull more of a general samples so you could grab 1 particle, 2 particles that can increase it, where the plates are just kinda there in a natural environment and they aren’t, you know, air is not being pushed on it, upon it more artificially if you will.

Evan Brand: Yeah, I- I- I like the idea of having both, you know, the air and the plates, it’s kinda like in functional medicine, we’re not gonna make a whole work up on somebody, just based on a stool test. ‘Cause we can look at a stool test and we could see, “hey, they didn’t test for candida”, so then this person thinks, “Well, I don’t have any candida”, but then we get their urinary organic acid test back and were like, “Woah, you have a big candida overgrowth”. So-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: -instead we have multiple testing methodologies and the plates, you know, you can’t beat them. The- they’re- they’re good thing for your buck.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And in my situation you could see the mold, here’s the plate, it was high, we addressed it, we treated it, came back and then it was a hundred percent gone. So it did fall through clinically what we observed.

Evan Brand: Yeah, and people talked about like the ERMI test and the EMMA, E-M-M-A and all these other tests, I just haven’t needed them. I haven’t needed them. If- if the plates, you know, so I- I kinda take 2 things in a consideration, 1 is how do I feel any environment? If I feel bad, if I feel dizzy, if I feel sick, if I don’t sleep well, well, my symptoms are there, so now did the plates correlate? And if they did, okay good, and then I fixed the plates, and then I feel better, right? So, I think you could go on and do more of like the Dr. Shoemaker protocols, the ERMI, the EMMA, there’s a lot of other tests out there that are more expensive. But for me, I just haven’t needed to go there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and the cool thing about the plate is they actually send you the picture so you can see how the plate actually looks. So it’s not some a theoretical, I’m guessing, you can actually see it, which is kinda cool.

Evan Brand: I thought it was just like a sample photo. When I first got the repot back, I was like, “There’s no way this is real, there’s no-“, I had to call ’em. I’m like, “Is this seriously my picture of my plates, like, yep, oh my- haaaa?!”, so it’s a very good convincer for people that are skeptics, you know? We have a lot of women that they feel sick but the husband’s not sick, so then the husband thinks you’re crazy, “Oh, it’s not mold, this couldn’t do that to you”, and then when they see the picture, they’re like, “Oh, I’m sorry, why if you are correct, this is a problem, let’s fix it”. So it’s good convincer at- at the- at the least.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And I had some patients that are literally spending a hundred thousand dollars to remediate their house, so I just- so fortunate that we found some methods that are so much more cost-effective. Now, if there’s tons of visible water damage, for sure, it may cost a little bit more, but we should definitely be able to get it way beneath that. And then even for people that are just, you know, on the- on the borderline, right? If we just fix the humi- the humidity aspect and we fog the house, that should be a good solution in general.

Evan Brand: Yeah, now let- let’s talk about this real quick. Uhm, so if you live in an apartment or a condo, or a townhouse or something, then, you- you are at more increased risk of having problems, right? Because let’s say you’re on a second floor apartment, you’ve got people above you that, maybe their dishwasher overflowed, or their toilet leaked, or they left their sink on, or they let their shower water leaked out onto their floor, and then your ceiling, is their floor, right? So, in that cavity between their floor and your ceiling, there could be water and creating mold above you, and there could be- err- people with a problem below you, uh, with a hotel, it could be a central system where you share all the same and eating dock work, so the hotel room 3 doors down could have flooded, and that moldy air gets pumped through the whole hotel, so then everybody’s sick, versus if you have an individual unit in your hotel, so, you are at a bigger risk. And, when I was in a hotel temporarily, uh, it took me 3 tries to find a hotel room that I could actually sleep soundly. And my wife reported the same thing. So, we saw water spots on the ceiling in the hotel, so we asked to move to room 2, and then we went to room 2, I still slept terrible, and then finally we got the room 3, and then I started sleeping and wife did too, and even our daughter. She was waking up all night complaining of a stomach ache.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And then she started sleeping through. So, it- it is a tricker situation when it’s not like a single family unit, uhm, you may have to try a little harder, but with the fog still working in apartment, condo, town home, yes, but, I mean, there may be some extra work where you gotta get to landlord or somebody else involved because the guy next door could be messing up your air.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So, at least in that situation, if it’s a hotel room, or if it’s an apartment, and it’s smaller, you could probably get- at least get a personal dehumidifier, and you could at least get a uhm- a personal air filter, and you could probably just fog it at least to, would it address the HVAC situation, but it’s better than nothing.

Evan Brand: Yeah, I mean, before I went in signed a lease on a place, I would probably 1, see how I feel. Most people aren’t as sensitive as me so they wouldn’t know, “Hey I feel bad in this environment”, most people wouldn’t pick up on that, but you could always take a plate with you-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Always take a plate with you.

Evan Brand: That’s what I did.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk] really high grade filters too, you know, ’cause the air is moving but it’s gotta go through a filter, typically to get out or get in, so you could always just upgrade in some really good quality air filters and get ’em changed frequently to make sure they’re- they’re good.

Evan Brand: Yeah, but that’d be a good bandaid to keep you afloat. But if I were gonna go buy a place or sign a lease on a place, I was kinda in the middle of houses or apartments or whatever, you know, you can buy some plates, you get a meter from immunolytics directly, or I carry ’em on my site as well, uh-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: -it’s still- it’s just- it’s- it’s 5 plates for- at the current, at the time of this recording it’s- right now, it’s $158, that’s the lab’s price, uh, for 5 plates including your report and a free consult with the laboratory. And, if I were gonna go and buy plates, I would have some plates with me, and I would tell the seller, or the- the relator I was working with, “Hey I’ve got a- uh- uh- uh- sensitivity, I need to make sure this is a clean environment for me, I’m gonna out this plates out for one hour, so we need to make sure we reserve this house showing for an hour”, and then okay, and then you seal the plates uo, and then you send them off to the lab, and then you- I mean, the rule state mark it’s kind of aggressive, so people, you may to like, try to hold the house, I don’t know if- you know, and this is- I don’t know how to advise you on that part but-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you like it, you would just- you’d bet on it and then in the auction period you could always pull back.

Evan Brand: Oh, there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Everyone has a one week auction period, in this- in U.S. at least.

Evan Brand: Okay, good. So if you have the auction period, then that’ll give you enough time to send your plates back to the lab, and then if the levels are just insane, or we see like stachybotrys, black mold, we see mucor, mucor usually indicates active water leak-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s the water damage one, mucor.

Evan Brand: Yeah, mucor, yeah. Uh, so- so, based on the report, you could decide, “Is this the house I love enough to proceed and fog and remediate, or is this a house that’s so bad there could be undiscovered water damage and leaks and etc., that you don’t wanna get into. ‘Cause the worst thing that could happen is, you pull the trigger on something else and then that other place makes you sicker than where you’re at now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, worst case scenario, you just tell the inspector, “Hey inspector”, let’s just really- I would even get a mold remediation personnel to- to really inspect as well if you like the house and just make sure they bring a good moisture meter to assess everything. And it could just be as- as simple as,”Hey, we gotta just maybe negotiate uh, an upgrade on the a- a- dehumidifier whole house”.

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s- that’s a good call, yeah. [Crosstalk]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …and then you fog it.

Evan Brand: Put that in your- your bordering.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, exactly. Well, anything else you wanted to highlight today on today’s uh, topic here Evan. I think we got a lot of different things addressed.

Evan Brand: No, we did great. I don’t know what the heck all you went into so you probably discuss other good stuff before I joined in, but uh, we’ll just send people back to the websites if they do wanna reach out. We can help talk you this further, uh, please reach out to Justin at his site, justinhealth- so, and you could schedule a consult anywhere around the world, and for me, if you wanna reach out,, and we look forward to talk with you again next week.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we offer the plate testing as well for all of our patients and people outside of uh- our patient network. Click below to get our links if you wanna get some of the plate testing, and then talk to us on the interpretation side of what that looks like. And then uhm, the next thing will be, if you wanna get some of the natural solutions to address some of the mold, the whole house fogging, some- I even have the laundry detergent, I did all my laundry yesterday in the uh, mold- anti mold laundry detergent as well just to- to be on the safe side. So I just kinda run like one cycle a close a month through that, just to be on the safe side.

Evan Brand: Yup, that’s what we’re doing too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. And we’re gonna have the links below, so if you guys wanna get any of those products or support the show we appreciate it, we wanna give you guys as many tools as possible so you guys can live an optimal life and have an optimal energy and focus and be pain-free. We appreciate you guys being part of the podcast. Thumbs up, give us a like, give us comments down below, we really appreciate you guys being a part of the show.

Evan Brand: Take care, see you later.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Take care Evan, bye.


Addressing Mold and Mycotoxins in your House | Podcast #217

Mold in the house is a big problem. The issues it brings are sometimes mistakenly diagnosed to be linked with things other than molds. To address these issues, functional medicine, then, guides you to the walk of a wounded healer.

In today’s podcast, Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand discuss how they are addressing their own mold issues. This update highlights the non-toxic products and cost-effective means that address the underlying mold issues that Evan Brand has been going through. Also, listen as they discuss how Dr. J’s own personal journey approached the same issue through moisture readings, scrubbers, pre-imposed test on the house air, dry fogging and many more. Continue or more. Sharing is caring!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

06:51    Mold as the Rabbit Hole of Functional Medicine

12:55    Steps to Know if you have a Moldy House

18:11    Do all the Foundational Things Right

19:39    Cautions and Reminders to “Doing it Yourself”

26:14    Preventative Maintenance Protocol


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey there, it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Today’s podcast, we’re gonna do a little mold update, we’re gonna talk about how we are addressing our own mold issues. Evan, how’s the mold issue that we’ve been keeping everyone update on? I actually found out, I have some mold behind my stove. So, not good news, but we are remedying it, we are on top of it and we’re gonna share a little bit about our journeys. And again, Evan and I see patients from all over the world that actually have mold issues. So, because this is happening to us and our families, we researched, we- finding out some of the- the more non-toxic products, the more cost-effective means to be addressed in this issue. So, we’re really excited to share the solution with everyone.

Evan Brand: Yeah, it’s the best thing to suffer, because then you have the best solutions, you know? I was told that I would have to take pharmaceutical drugs for my gut issues, and I would have to take acid-blocking medications, and I would have to take Alinia and Mebendazole and all these drugs for my parasites, but instead, with your advice, I was able to get rid of my parasite infections using herbs. So, I just love to basically challenge the status quo, and I love to just deny, deny, deny the conventional options because now even with all these mold illness, you know, people are saying, “You have to do Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker’s protocol”, which is a bunch of different pharmaceuticals like taking these resins, like cholestyramine-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: -and doing all nasal antibiotic sprays. And I don’t wanna do any of that crap. So, I’m gonna prove that wrong, and maybe I’m stubborn, and maybe I’ll fail, but I’m gonna try to prove it wrong and do this natural way just like I did everything else.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, it totally makes sense. So, let me get people a little update on my situation and then we’ll come back and we’ll follow-up on yours, that sound good?

Evan Brand: Sounds good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, in general, last week, we’re having a frozen pipe issue addressed, there was no leakage in the pipe but we have to go in to uh- underneath the cabinet and put some extra insulation around that pipe. In the process, we saw some mold on the- in between cabinet board and the outer side of the drywall. So, most of the molds have actually sandwiched in between the cabinet and the outer part of the drywall. And there was a little bit of mold inside but not much, and then the back wall, where the outside of the house was, there was no mold. So it seemed to be sandwiched between the cabinet and the outer dry wall and uh- and uh- maybe- f- maybe 70 or 80% less mold on the inner drywall. So, it seems like some kind of a water leak must have happened in the past. Could’ve just been water that went down in between, there could’ve just been not enough uhm, adhesant, or sealer, or cement, you know, that uhm- that you seal the cabinet with or you seal the uhm- the various tile up against the wall, it could’ve been that sealer was just- lo- loose and wider overtime, accumulated down there, it could’ve been the vent pipe on top of the- the stove, could have some flushing issues there. So, my mold guys are coming in tomorrow to- to break down that wall behind the cabinet and look and see what’s going on and assess it. Based on going in there and looking at the moisture readings, the moisture readings are all very low in that area. So, based on the low-moisture, it doesn’t seem like it is an active leak. Of course, if it’s a flushing issue, it could only happen when it rains. There- there is that, but you’ll think there be some level of high moisture. So, what we’re doing is just making sure- the- the cabinet’s we’d already had re-sealed because we have a uhm- you know, a kitchen remodel done, but now that it’s exposed, we’re gonna be coming in there now, we’re gonna be uh- trying to assess the root underlying issue as much as possible and rectifying it whether it’s a flushing issue, whether it’s just the sealant behind the stove. Obviously, all that will be addressed either way. So, now, we’re gonna go in there, any visible mold we’re gonna hit, and we’re gonna topically get it with hydrogen peroxide and acetic acid which is like an apple cider vinegar mix formula to kill it. And this kind of formula is non-toxic which is great, and it will kill that mold on contact. We’ll gonna have it all remediated in a negative-air environment, so the air- so the mold spores do not go systemic around the house. I’ve been Scrubbers on the last 5 days, so it’s keeping the- the air pretty darn filtered. And we’re also doing a pre-imposed test on air and plate so I can assess the quality in the house. So, that’s really important number 1, and then kind of to finish everything off, we have a special herbal ss- essential oil-based solution that’s kind of tangerine, lemon, grapefruit seed extract, ___[04:16], it’s a product called CitruSafe that we have links for below, some of the products that we are now starting that- to promote because we’re looking at finding the most effective yet also non-toxic. Some of the more conventional products can leave almost like a- a residue or leave a metabolite behind that says, as virulent, or as reactive as the mold was originally. So, a lot of people who are sensitive can have problems. And again-

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -so, this is kind of where we’re at right now with this kind of 3-step solution, actually 4-step. We’re figuring out where the mold is, identifying how that moisture got there, 3, we’re killing it in a negative containment, negative air environment so it doesn’t spread. Number 4, we’re doing it the whole thing, with Scrubbers on in the background that keep that air clean. And then number 5, we are topically using the essential oil fogging solution afterwards. And we do the Dry Fog. Dry Fog seems to be the best because the Dry Fog gets to a- a size in about 1 to 10 microns that’s small enough to get in between baseboards and in between, uhm, really hard area. So, mold that maybe hiding behind the board or hiding behind certain things will still get touched and hit by it, so we have the best ability to kill whatever’s going on there.

Evan Brand: Yeah, and the good thing is for you guys, that… err.. unless we just don’t know yet because you haven’t been in the house too long, but, your family seems to be doing pretty good, you all don’t seem to have any major symptoms.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly, no major issues. Now, the difference is, once that mold is now exposed, we all know that kind of moves around. So, we scrubbed it, we’ve done our best, we’re doing pre-imposed air, pre-imposed testing on the plates. So, we’re doing our best to quantify what’s going on, and then we’re gonna be doing the Dry Fog throughout the entire house. So, my whole entire house, all the ventilation, all the drywall in my kitchen area, out- after it’s been fully killed, and then we’re also gonna be doing a- and the HVAC or- there’s a little bit of mold on some of the 2×4’s, uh, which is common. Anyone that gets the house built brand new, most uh, people are gonna have mold on their 2×4’s. I’ve had a- I’ve spoken to people with the mold companies where patients or people have requested like “Hey, I want none molding 2×4’s”, and the- the builders can’t even accommodate that. So-

Evan Brand: Oh my God.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, I know people who basically said, “Hey, uhm, let’s choose all the boards that we’re gonna use for the house”, and they would just show up that day with a little sprayer and they would just spray it down with the 28% hydrogen peroxide and just kill it all, but then you’re good to go.

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s the hard part is, you know, even during construction, right? If the house gets rained on during construction, if it doesn’t dry out in 48 hours which it’s never going to around here in Kentucky ’cause it rains so damn much, then you start building up and putting walls around those 2×4’s that are still wet. So, just like us, we moved in to a brand-new home with a mold problem, right? So, people may say, “Oh, my house is new, and my apartment’s new, or my condo’s new”, “new” doesn’t mean that it’s clean. And, same goes with the age, you can have a 10-year-old, 20-year-old house that’s pe- perfectly perfect. So, it’s- that’s the hard thing. Uh, there was a question here which I think is relevant to bring up now, which this question, uh, from somebody on YouTube comments says, “Does mold still qualify as a functional medicine rat hole, or is there something about mold toxicity that you can identify from the GetGo, when diagnosing a patient?”. I’ll just tell you with my own personal story, yes, mold is sort of a, I like to term “rabbit hole” rather than “rat hole”-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes, yes.

Evan Brand: But, but yes, I would say, mo- mold is a “rabbit hole” because it’s the great mimicker just like lyme disease, meaning, I had blood pressure spikes, I had heart palpitations which did get resolved after I got my cavitation surgery, my heart palpitations disappeared. But I still had blood pressure issues, I still had cold hands, cold feet circulation problems, my sleep was terrible, I had random rashes, I had brain fog, I had some joint pain, I had some anxiety issues just like this weird sympathetic overdrive for no reason, and that was all mold. So, you can go by looking at all the symptoms but ultimately you have to test your environment which is like the plates that Justin has discussed. I’m giving the plates to every single new client now. Every single new client that comes in, we say, “Hey, we’re gonna do your functional medicine test, we’re also gonna do plates and we test your house”. Just like standard protocol now, and then we test your urine, if the budget allows, we run the urinary mycotoxin panel so we can look at the body and see what is the accumulation of bile toxins. For me, I grew up in my grandmother’s house which flooded. As a kid, I remember she had box fenced down there trying to dry out the basement, and have like a 2 ft. of water down there. That place had mold, so, long story short, if you do a mold-urine test, that is your whole lifetime accumulation, that’s not just current. And that’s why I think it’s important ’cause what if your environment’s clean now but you lived in a moldy house a year ago or 5 years ago, or 10 years ago, you could still have the accumulation in your toxin bucket.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So that’s good to know that those tests are more of accumulation. My biggest concern is, healthy people that aren’t reacting to mold maybe just naturally detoxifying it from their environment and not be reacting to it-

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -that’s my only concern, right? Is how do you- how do you, ugh, differentiate and draw the line between people that have a- a body borne of mold and people that are just naturally getting exposed to it and re- and re- uhm removing it, remediating it from their environment to their natural detoxification, ’cause we know, you’re going to a forest, I mean, part of the reason why leaves don’t stack up to infinities, ’cause hey, they decay and they produce mold as a result. So, you going out to a forest, you’re gonna get, ___[09:51], basically exposed to mold as well.

Evan Brand: Yeah, well that’s why I would go hiking and I would get super dizzy in the woods, right? I didn’t know, I mean, I love hiking so much but I didn’t realize it was making me sick until this whole mold thing. To answer your question, I do have the an- the answer to that because I asked, uh, William Shaw over at GreatPlains at question. I said, “Okay, so, let’s say you- you take a buddy of mine, my friend Justin, he’s not symptomatic at all, if he’s living and/or near mold, is his urine test gonna show mold?”. And he says, “Not necessarily” because if your body is making the antibodies to work on the mold, your body will push it out, and your mold test should show nothing. Well, my test- my genetics are not as good as yours for mold, my test show tons of mold. You and I could live in the same environment, I may show high, and you may not ’cause you’re detoxing it and I’m not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: But why wouldn’t it show up in the urine, because isn’t the urine part of a natural detoxification system, for eliminating mold?

Evan Brand: Yes, that is true but- [crosstalk]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …why you wouldn’t see something there?

Evan Brand: You could see something but you’re not gonna see it off the chart. It’s because for me, what I did was the glutathione challenge test where I did a few days ago. If I have to mobilize it, so, because my uh- levels were so off the charts, the idea, and this is not all black and white but the idea is that I’ve probably had mold in my brain, my kidneys, everywhere else, and the glutathione pushed it out of the hiding spots, whereas you, you don’t have any hiding spots. Yeah you probably still have some baseline urinary excretion, but probably not an off the charts excretions like I had.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and I think anytime you do a mold test, I think it’s good to do that glutathione pushed. It’s kinda like doing a heavy metal test, urine and doing like a DMS or DMPS, uh, doing it like a challenge product. So, you can kinda get more a tissue burden, I think it allows you get more of a- a whole body burden if you add some type of a- a glutathione Calpol to it.

Evan Brand: Yeah, and the- the reason that glutathione is the best at least in my reading, is because mold depletes glutathione. Now, interestingly enough though, I did an organic acid test, and my glutathione according to the oh, look somewhat decent, but I’ll tell you, I don’t feel well if I take too much glutathione. So, I know that I probably am at a deficient state. Maybe a functional deficient state where, maybe the test doesn’t show it, but when I take glutathione, I can feel that I’m mobilizing toxins with it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: E- exactly. And again, you’re in a high level of function, I mean, you’re seeing patients, you’re doing a lot of deep- deep level thinking, so I mean, potentially if you have lower glutathione, that- that may have even worse or more exacerbated, right?

Evan Brand: I’m uh- yeah, I mean, you’re right, I’m so glad that my symptoms are more related to dizziness and blood pressure and all that, and then my cognitive function is still good because I would hate not to be able to be helping people throughout this. Luckily, I’m still grateful that even with the symptoms I have had, I’ve still been able to work. Where many people, they can’t work, and they have to go on, you know, if you talk with J.W., many people say they go on disability, they’re living with family members and friends because their house is too moldy, but, luckily, I didn’t have to do that. You know, we did stay in the hotel for about a month, but that hotel is moldy too, I still had problems there. That’s the hard part, is, where is your safe place?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And the answer [crosstalk].

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now, my perspective about it is this. It’s like number 1, I wanna do a deep timeline and find out, number 1, is there any visible mold where it dry- you know, stai- w- water stains on the ceiling or drywall stains, number 1, can you visualize any mold? Number 2, any history of water damage in the house? If you can answer negatively to those, that’s- that’s step 1. Step 2 is do you feel better when you’re out of the house? If you’re at a better environment and it’s not like you’re just on a beach having a vacation, meaning, you’re outside of the house, and you’re still doing better, uh, you’re doing better outside of the house, and that’s consistent, that’s another sign there could be mold. And then number 3, is let’s work on some of the foundational diet and lifestyle things, do some of the functional tests, see if we start to move the needle and start improving. If we start improving with some of those things, and that’s a good sign that there could be other, let’s just say, higher priorities on the list, so we’re gonna go after those first. Those are the first 3. And then of course in between there, forever in doubt, we may wanna do some of the mold plate testing to at least get a baseline and see what’s going on. And if we don’t have any area that specifically target, right? That’s where doing some of these essential oils dry fogging could be helpful, and I would only do that if we have some plate testing that’s showing some higher levels, and maybe we’re just finding that we feel better when we’re outside of the house.

Evan Brand: Yeah, well said. And remember, you and I used to have this conversation where I was upstairs in my office working and I felt fine, and then I would come downstairs to the dinner table, and that’s when I would get a blood pressure spike, and it was because my dinner table area in the kitchen was right where the crawl space issue was and that’s where the vents were, and the bad air from the crawlspace came into the living area. So, all day at work upstairs I had a separate heating and cooling system up there that did not have mold, I felt fine, and then I come into the moldy environment, eat dinner, and then I would feel bad. So, yeah, it may even be a difference of room. When I sleep in this bedroom versus that bedroom, I feel better. Or, when I go to work at the office, I feel worse, and then when I come home I feel better. Well, then, your- your office, you’re work environment, could be a source too. Someone’s working at, let’s say at old moldy building like a courthouse in their city, that probably a moldy building and then you gotta try to find remedies to still keep your job. Maybe you have a portable HEPA air purifier on your desk to pump good air into your face, maybe that’s all you could do in certain situations. Teachers, schools are very bad, schools are notoriously moldy. If you’re a teacher in the moldy school, you gotta try to hack that situation-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, I know, I mean, if that was me, I would probably bring a fogger in and just fog it really fast without anyone knowing, just to be on the safe side of having really good air filter. What’s your take on it?

Evan Brand: Yeah, if I was a teacher and I had moldy classroom, on a Friday afternoon, I would just stay a little la- a little extra after hours, I’d fog the classroom, leaves, so, over the weekend that fog is that doing its job. Put the fogger on a timer, so after the x amount of hours or whatever, it just shuts off, and then Monday morning, you come in and then you got a cleaned- you got a clean room. The problem is, of you don’t have like a window unit in your classroom, ’cause we have a lot of teachers, you know, I have teachers as clients, I know you do too, uh, if you have like a single unit, you could probably fix it, but if you’re on like a central system where the entire school is connected to some giant HVAC room, that fogging is only gonna buy you time until that HVAC central kicks on again, throws more spores back in your classroom.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and again, ye- we have- you should be having like if you’re in a school like that, the newer schools probably run almost like a hospital level of filtration, right? The newer ones?

Evan Brand: Hopefully so. I don’t know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hopefully. I know, that’s the [crosstalk] situation- that’s the tough situation there. But at least you can have an air filter in your classroom and maybe talk to the school, see if you can get the whole HVAC system, you know, uhm, fogged. It doesn’t take much to fog it, you know [crosstalk]…

Evan Brand: No, [crosstalk]… and the co- and the cost is not that bad and, you know, if we talk about how this problem of mold affects society, I mean, we’ve seen- uhm one of the- one of the biggest symptoms of people getting re-exposed to mold, is suicide. It’s suicidal thoughts.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: And, think about all the suicides we’re seeing-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -how much of that is linked to mold. Obviously, pharmaceutical drugs and media and all that, so don’t say, “Evan said, it’s all mold”, no, I didn’t say that, I’m saying it’s a factor. And I’ll tell you, when I went to this moldy building, I went to go get my driver’s license changed out, I went to the old courthouse like down the road, after I came back-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -from that- that courthouse-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: -I was sweating, my blood pressure was spiking, and I just had a super big wave of depression and anxiety for no reason, I just felt miserable and terrible. And that was me getting re-exposed to mold. So, I know from a mental health perspective, this is huge. And how many times is your psychiatrist saying, “Hey, I think your problem is mold”, they’re never saying that. They’re saying, “Oh, this is a problem with your marriage”. Well, when I talk with J.W., he said the number 1 and 2 problems people have when they’re exposed to mold, number 1, financial problems, number 2, marriage problems, ’cause if you’re sick, you’re not gonna be as happy, your family members are gonna have to deal with you being sick. I see how it could strain marriages and relationships. There’s your counselor or therapist bring up mold in your house is the cause of your marriage issue? Absolutely not. But they should be ’cause this is a huge factor, this is a smoking gun. For so many problems that we see, but nobody knows.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. Now, my perspective on it is this: is not everyone is genetically succinct- or super sensitive to mold. I- I know I am not, at least right now. Number 2, there’s the idea of having a stress bucket, so, the better you do other things in your life, diet, blood sugar stability, keeping inflammation down, keeping external exposure to toxins down, that’s gonna make a bigger difference, so then when you are exposed to mold, i- it may be the less of an issue versus if you’re carrying 50 or hundred pounds overweight, you’re inflamed, your diet’s poor, your sleep’s poor, you’re over under excising, those things are gonna add to your stress bucket without mold may be an issue versus if you have everything lined up, the mold may not be an issue, may be more of a speed bump than a s- than a stop sign. So-

Evan Brand: Don’t say…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -the first thing is, I think anyone that has any potential mold issues, do all the foundational things right. See how much that moves the needle. Uh, person on the Q&A question list has a really good pertinent question, they wrote, uh, “How can you find if there is a mold inside the ceiling separating 2 floors. One of our kids let the water run ’till it poured to the kitchen ceiling spotlights”. [Crosstalk] I would- I would say number 1, if you have the root cause addressed, meaning, you know how the water got there, that’s good, right? So, don’t repeat number 1. Number 2, if you can see water in the spotlight, I would definitely cut out anything you can visibly see, I would at least have a mold remediator come in, open the ceiling up and at least spray anything in there that they can topically get with the hydrogen peroxide solution, and then fog the rest and then put clean, drywall up where the water spots were.

Evan Brand: Yeah, that’s good- [crosstalk], that’s good advice, yeah, and- you know, definitely have somebody if you’re gonna try to do it yourself, you’d wanna have a mask on, you don’t wanna try to, disturb a wall cavity, uh, and make yourself or your kids sick, so you wanna have the proper, uh, PPE, the personal protection equipment if you are gonna try to do any that work on your own, it sounds like there’s probably not an ongoing water or moisture problem, I would still look into getting a uh, portable humidity monitor to check your house. So, make sure your humidity level’s below 50%. And then what you could do too if you have somebody cut open the uh, the wall cavity, you could always just throw a plate in there, just for curiosity’s sake, and if you do have any symptoms or any of your children have symptoms, you know, put a- put a plate in your master bedroom, put a plate in your kid’s room, just make sure your sleeping areas are covered. That goes directly into this other question here from someone that says, “Is there a range delivered in the report to indicate an overgrowth that needs to be remediated?”. In other words, is there a safe amount? Yes. For the plate, we’re talking about the company we’re using, you have a “health score”, 0 to 4 is normal. Some mold in the environment is normal, you’re probably never gonna get to 0, but when you go 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 96, like my issue was, then you have a problem. That’s when you know you need to remediate it, so, 4 and below, generally, you’re okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and the big areas to look will be obviously the roof to make sure there’s no leakage there. And, for the most part, like you’re gonna see, if there’s an active leak, you’re gonna see some level of exposure. I think you saw a lot of depthness in your attic, right? You’d a big pool of water in your attic?

Evan Brand: I did. Yeah, and-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh.

Evan Brand: -that was from the uh- the dripping. It was dripping from the uh, from the rafters.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So, you saw water and moisture in the attic, and, most people with an active leak, they would see on the drywall, they’d see on the roof of the ceiling. If you don’t see it, and there was other major vectors haven’t addressed, and you’re still concerned because of high level of plate testing. I mean, I would a mold personnel with a good moisture meter to check all the major areas for moisture, higher levels of moisture, you can even do the infrared heating to assess cold and hot spots. And then once that’s been addressed, if there’s no major issues, then that’s where I think just the fogging would be the next logical step throughout the whole house.

Evan Brand: And- and uh, one other point is like apartments and condos and hotels and all that, you know, these are places to have multiple units. So, for example in the hotel we were staying at, there was a huge water spot that looked like mold above our hotel room, and we asked the staff about it, and they said, “Oh yeah, you know, the dishwasher overflowed above you guys on the 2nd or 3rd floor whatever it was”, like, “get us out of this hotel room”. So, we moved to another hotel room, it took me to go to 3 different rooms in the same building before I could sleep through the night. And my wife, she was waking up too, she had terrible sleep, our daughter had terrible sleep, so we just kept moving hotel rooms until we found one that was clean. So, if you live in a place where you got somebody above you or below you, what if they are not as careful about their dishwasher, or shower, or sink, or whatever, and they have a plumbing issue, their plumbing issue then becomes your plumbing issue because it’s affecting your breathable air.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly, exactly, that makes so much sense. So, in general, can you smell mold? I mean, I can just tell you like, I’ve been in moldy houses where you can smell that moldiness, but I can tell you, when we have that visible mols, I could not smell that. Could you smell mold in your house?

Evan Brand: No, we did not smell it, and-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: – it was not visible. We couldn’t see it and we couldn’t smell it. That’s why it’s like the invisible assassin. And uh, they say, when we say “the”, we’re talking to mold experts that Justin and I consult with, the experts say, “When you smell mold, it’s a very, very, very bad problem at that point”.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, it’s a very bad issue. But, in general, it’s just the plate testing’s simple and cheap. So if anyone’s watching to- to reach out to my office, we’ll put information below where you can just email me and we can get you that. Same thing if you’re listening to Evan’s, check below and you can reach out to Evan directly and we can give you access to some of that testing. But that’s a good first spot, and if you had health issues and not there’s like no water spots, there’s no active leak, uhm, there’s no major issue off the bat, there’s no timeline history in and around water damage, or with the house, don’t worry about it off the bat. Don’t- just focus on the foundational things yet, and then we can always do a little bit of cheaper testing in the meantime to see if there’s an issue, but work on the foundation ’cause sometimes that can move the nail so much and it can take so much stress booze out of your stress bucket and allow you to heal significantly.

Evan Brand: Yeah, you make a good point, you know, I’ve done all the foundational work, gut, adrenals, etc., so, my diet’s dialed in. I’ve done everything which is probably why I stayed afloat, because when I talk with Dr. Shaw at the lab about my report, he goes, “Dude”, he didn’t say “Dude”, but he was like, “This is very high”. And I was like, “Well, luckily, I’m just dizzy and have blood pressure problems because I’ve still been able to work, versus if I didn’t have all the other, you know, 10 years of, you know, herbs and adaptogens and all that in my system, maybe I would’ve collapsed further and had further health problems.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, you may not have been functional and being able to help all the patient to do all that, but it’s great, it’s good to walk the journey of the wounded healer. I feel, like for me, this is been a such a great journey ’cause I’m gonna be so much more, you know, when you take a crash course when you deal with the experts and you get concentrated, actionable information, it’s so much more valuable that just popping your head and do a book, or watching the documentary because you’re- you’re getting actionable steps to fix the issue. It’s not fluff or theoretical nonsense if you will.

Evan Brand: Yeah, you know, and- and that was the same thing when I knew, uh, that you were gonna be having your first kid, I thought, “Oh, this is so exciting because I was gonna be alone on the parenting journey and now, you’re a dad, with your son, and I’m a dad with my daughter. And then same thing with this mold issue, I was like on this road alone, and then now you found your issues, so I’m partially kind of glad that this happening to you-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Laughs]

Evan Brand: -because now, I’m like, “Yes, now he gets to empathize and now he understands what I had to go through to fix it”, so-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, it’s a good journey, and you know, I think most people. And here’s the hard part, right? Is people listening, “___[25:31], oh my God!”. Like, “I don’t just have any water spots”, “I don’t think I have any damage”, “I feel like I’m gonna have to tear my house down to go figure out what’s going on”, don’t worry about that. Uh, ge- get the plate testing, if you can’t see anything visibly if you- if you know your roof’s good, if you know those things that the common areas are kinda dialed in and there’s no leaking, nothing visible, then, the easiest first thing is get- get a little bit of testing for your house on start there. And then number 2, we can always move to just a simple, systemic, kinda dry fogging solution that’s totally essential oil based, non-toxic, that’d be the first natural step and, we talked with some people at the labs, they even do this kinda once a year, once every couple of years on their house anyway, just kinda for preventative as well.

Evan Brand: Yeah, and we have one comment here, and then we can wrap up, uh, guy put, “We had a major wind storm that rolled through with 70 mile per hour winds, causing a lot of roofs shingles to be blown off. Time to examine those roofs for leaks”. Yes, it is time, I would get a plate, put it up in your attic, I guarantee your attic could have potentially a roof leak or mold, and that’s not to freak you out or cause panic, it’s just to say the reality is very high. The- even the uh- the EPA, the environmental protection agency in some of these major government entities say that 1 in 3 homes has a water event every year. So, the- this water problem is huge, water, moisture, equals mold. So this is like a huge epidemic that has just way underdiagnosed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I’m putting on my- my kind of like preventative maintenance protocol for my house is, to get my roof looked at preventably once a year. Just to have someone go up there, check all the flashing, check any pipes, check any area where there could be something, I mean, my roof is like 3 year- it’s only 3 years old. So, it’s relatively brand new. [Crosstalk]

Evan Brand: When- when Jeff came to my house to do the fog, uh, he went up in the attic, which we’re gonna turn into a playroom and he said, “Evan, there’s a lot of staining on this plywood up here…”, he said, “…this scares me, get a roof around here”, and the roofer came, and he said, this looks like it was a water event from when the roof got put on. He says this is not a current leak.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: So, the staining we’re concerning, but luckily, you know, it was not a red light.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So, it’s not an active issue, then you just fog it, and- and leave it alone, right?

Evan Brand: Yup. Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: ‘Cause there could be a water stain and there’s no active, you know, if you can’t visualize the mold on there, then you just stain it, or you just do the fog on it and then you’re pretty go.

Evan Brand: Yeah, he did a peroxide on a couple spots ’cause they looked a little scary, but he said no, this is fine, so.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So, I think when in doubt, right? You just peroxide it, and then- and then fog it afterwards.

Evan Brand: Yup, absolutely. And this is the stuff that we like people to do it on them- with the- you know, DIY sure but when we say hydrogen peroxide, that’s not your standard 3%. This is very potent like 30+ percent that’s been diluted to the mid-10 to mid-20% hydrogen peroxide that would really burn you, and it will really hurt you. So, don’t just like, “I heard this podcast, I’m gonna go fix my house”, no, please like, speak with Justin, speak with me, speak with some of our friends and experts because this is something that, you know, you may wanna have expert help. I don’t want you going and “oh, let me open up this wall panel”, and then to get hit in the face with black mold and you end up in the- you know, in the hospital, or so.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and if you do visualize it, you- if you wanna kill it, you wanna do it in a negative air containment so the- it does not go systemic. So, if you visualize it, if it’s like, you know, on the outside of the wall, then you know it’s a bad thing, right? But you’d wanna have a, you know, take off, or bagged off, while you’re waiting to get a mold person up there, and then they would address it in a negative kinda containment environment with the right type of uh, respiration and the right type of uhm, type of material to- to- to shoot out that hydrogen peroxide in a way so they don’t get burnt. So, you wanna have some expert do that as well. And for me, this gonna have them do the fogging as well because, why not, they’re already doing 80% of the job, I’d- I’ll have them do the whole- the whole hundred percent.

Evan Brand: Yup, absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: One thing I would say, maybe if uhm- if there’s no active issues and you wanna do it from a preventative standpoint, where, hey, there’s no active leaks, there’s nothing I’m trying to hit specifically, I just wanna do a general dry fog, I think that would be doable by yourself. I know you and uhm, you and the other expert did it together, right?

Evan Brand: Yeah, Jeff. Yeah, he- he- basically showed me the ropes but, I let him handle it all because I was so overwhelmed with moving and, I was living out of a suitcase for a month, so I just said, you know, well, I’m just gonna- just have him do it for me and it turned out to about a dollar per square foot, uhm versus some of the other enzyme based treatments I’ve previously discussed on the podcast was around 5 dollars per square foot. So, significant difference in cost, but we’re seeing just as good, if not, better results.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, exactly. And I think, if you buy it, it’s way cheaper than that, ’cause I know, with my house…

Evan Brand: Yeah, if you buy it- yeah, if you buy it, I think he said around 50 cents a square foot.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Yup. So, you’re looking at 50 cents a square foot, I would even say potentially a little bit less than that. I think you can get it down to, yeah, 50, 40 cents a square foot, makes about sense, totally.

Evan Brand: One comment on here, “If we built homes with solid concrete, we may not have this mold issue? Hmmm, maybe. But a lot of concrete holds moisture, and moisture creates mold, so. Uh, I’ve heard of plenty of different cases speaking with the lab where they’d have concrete walls in the basement that are absolutely covered in mold. So, uh, it sounds good in theory. There are other building materials that are better, but there is no like, sure all, ’cause there’s houses in the middle of the desert that- that J.W. has seen that are moldy, so-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: E- exactly, and then, you know, if you have, let’s just say you can’t make a whole house out of uhm, concrete. You know, Edison back in the 1920’s I think was trying to do that, really interesting. But, eventually, you’re gonna have some type of a break and then moisture will get in there, mold will form at a- at a acute, you know, at a level when you can’t see it and you may have high levels of moisture in the basement, so that’s where I think the fogging is- is really good, either way, just having a really good HVAC system in there. Uhm, like when we put our basement in, we’re like, “Uh, should we put an HVAC in them like, heck yeah”, ’cause I wanna have really good air circulation and really good control over the environment down there-

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -keep the humidity low, and to keep the air- air moving in a way. So, it’s not- the- the more that air just sits, if you get moisture in there, it’s more likely to mold versus, you know, dry up and evaporate.

Evan Brand: Yeah, absolutely. Well, let’s wrap this thing up, but, uh, in terms of consultations, if you wanna reach out to Justin and get help, you know, we noticed a lot of clients get better on our protocols that we use for the gut because we’re using a lot of anti-fungal herbs. We see a lot of fungus show up on stool test, so, fungus in your home equals fungus in your body which is why people dose- do so well on our protocols. So, if you wanna reach out, you can get a hold of Justin at his site, justinhealth- Reach out for a consult, we love helping people across the world, if you wanna get in touch with me, the website is, and we’ll send the lab test to your house. So, if you reach out, say, “Hey Justin”, or “Hey Evan, I’ve got this problem”, we send the test to your house, whether we’re talking plates, urine test, or looking at your home, or looking at your body, that’s done, for anywhere in the world, literally, and then we get a protocol together. So, you know, yes, you could do a lot of these on your own, is it better to have a “tour guide” so to speak who’s been through it, yes, it is. Am I biased to say that? Yes. But I hire people to help me. So, I think having a teammate is helpful especially ’cause this topic gets overwhelming quickly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly, 100%. Well, today was a really great I think podcast, actionable information. I think if anyone’s dealing with these issues is gonna, hopefully it make it seem a little bit more simpler, a little bit more bite sized, give you some good non-toxic solutions to address the issue and- just get- and maybe just one part of your- kinda healing health journey.

Evan Brand: Absolutely. Well, you all take good care and we’ll be back with more updates on this whole mold topic soon.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thanks so much and give us the thumbs up, uh share, and leave your comments below. We wanna get your feedback on it and we’ll go up through there and try to answer some of y’all questions. You guys have a phenomenal day, thanks for listening.

Evan Brand: Take care, see ya.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Take care, bye.


Mold and Mycotoxins | Podcast #212

“You don’t just magically become sensitive to smells, you become sensitive to smells after you get exposed to mold” – Evan Brand.

In today’s podcast, Dr. Justin Marchegiani discusses Evan Brand’s personal journey on molds and mycotoxins. Listen and learn about byproducts of mold, aspergillus and penicillium, the bad things they produce that make one sick, ochratoxin and aflatoxin, the mycotoxins which are found on urine, and many other toxins that might cause cancer. Continue for more and don’t forget to share. Sharing is caring!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

00:50    Evan’s 8-Months Journey

03:56    ImmunoLytics Lab Testing

12:37    Where are they Coming From?

20:12    Mold Disinfectants

21:52    Compounds to Help on Detoxification


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey there it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Welcome back to the podcast, I got Evan Brand here today. We’re gonna be talking about mold, mycotoxins and Evan’s personal journey through this- through this topic live. So, let’s dig in. Evan, how we doing today?

Evan Brand: I’m pretty good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk]

Evan Brand: So, if people can see, I’m in a hotel right now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk]

Evan Brand: Yeah, in my portable office.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Sorry about that, we got a little delay in the bandwidth. For listeners here, we have uh… Evan on video as well, and we also have uhm- on iTunes, so if you wanna watch the video, feel free to click below and- and subscribe to the YouTube channel so you can see us in the flash. So, yeah, Evan, you’re in the hotel you mentioned. You’re in the process of- of getting your house remediated. I’m gonna just give you the floor for a few minutes here. Just to kinda walk everyone through your story of the last months so to speak.

Evan Brand: Yeah, well, really. It’s like a seven or 8- 8 months story. Uh, you know, I started having some blood pressure issues back in July, and you and I were talking about it. We had talked about doing adrenal support and testing. We were looking at the gut, we were looking for infections and fixing all that stuff. And then all of a sudden, the blood pressure issue still remain and so, you know, I- I just now got the answer within the last month, and it was mold and it was about toxin problem the whole time, which would explain why did all these other body systems like we do in our functional medicine approach but it still wasn’t enough. And that’s because I have ochratoxin in my urine which is a mycotoxin. What are mycotoxins? They’re the byproducts of mold. So, aspergillus and penicillium, those are bad, but it’s the mycotoxins they produce that make you sick. And so, when we test our clients for the urine, and we’re looking for mycotoxins, we’re looking for stuff like ochratoxin and aflatoxin. And, my ochratoxin is off the charts. The reference range is 4 to 20, and my levels are a hundred and 96. And I talked with Dr. Shaw at the laboratory, and he said it’s one of the highest levels he’s ever seen, which I hate to break any record for something that bad because it’s very toxic to the kidneys, it’s a known carcinogen, it does cause cancer. So, hopefully we caught this early enough that my cancer risk is gonna be low because I’m working on getting it out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we also talked about this as well. The fact that you are moving, it’s also a good thing because if you weren’t removing it and you are being exposed to all of that, that means all that stuff trapped in your body. So, even though your detoxification systems under stress and processing it, it’s at least processing it though, right?

Evan Brand: Yeah, er- yeah, I mean, I think I probably have the gene, I’m not gonna waste the money to test if I have a genetic problem with detoxing mold, but I did do some glutathione before with the test, so I don’t know if my levels are very high because the glutathione pushed it out or if that means I’m truly just detoxing. And let’s just hope that it’s a combination of both.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well the glutathione’s pushing it out and that means, you know, we should continue to keep you on the moderate dose of glutathione. Is that in your current protocol now for detoxification?

Evan Brand: I’m taking a few days off. Uh, you and I we’re kinda talking about it…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: …both the weekend. The hard part is…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: …with the detoxification of mycotoxins, you gotta be careful because, you know, it makes you really sensitive to stuff, and I noticed that I don’t sleep like at all. Like I’ll just stare with the ceiling all night if I pushed detox too hard. So, right now, I’m taking two days off [crosstalk].

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. It’s probably whipping up the adrenals and maybe just creating too much of a stress response. So it’s good to really to know that. I know we talked last week, you’re like, “Hey I’m doing this dose of this, this dose of this, this is where I’m at” and like, and we noticed that as you titrate up, it- you know we’re kind of be a delay in your ability to see if you could tolerate that dose. So, I know, we chatted and like, “Hey, instead of going, you know, every day increasing, let’s go every 3 or 4 days”. And I think once we did that, we were able to calibrate your dose so you wouldn’t detoxify too fast.

Evan Brand: Yeah, it’s a pain like I don’t wanna go that slow because I wanna get this out of my system.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Right.

Evan Brand: And, you know, I’m a- I’m kind of stubborn, like I wanna just detox this and get it to- get it over with, but you can’t man, you have to go slow and that- and that’s a hard lesson for me to learn.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I hundred percent agree. So, let’s start off here. First off, we did some testing, right? We did some of the ImmunoLytics lab testing on your house to kind of assess your mold level. So, we first found that your levels is to the roof. And then, let’s kind of go in to what some of the vectors were like, where in the house did, we see some of these issues. Go ahead.

Evan Brand: Yeah, so the living room showed up with a high amount of candida, which is an interesting because if someone treats their guts for candida but they don’t treat their environment for candida, you’re actually breathe a candida in, and it’ll recolonize the gut. Now I’ve got a whole podcast on this coming soon with JW from ImmunoLytics to explain this further, but the long story short is that, candida in the environment can colonize the gut. So, if you do a candida protocol with supplements which is what you and I do all day every day with our clients, we’ve gotta fix their houses too. So, this- unfortunately as another layer of complexity, because the pets can have candida too. That’s a very big vector is pets. So, there is this special type of pet shampoo that we’re using on our dogs to clean her to get the mold off of her, and it’s by a company called Citrusafe. And that’s a…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Oh.

Evan Brand: …and they have this special shampoo…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Mm-hmm.

Evan Brand: …that’s been shown to get all the mycotoxins and the candida off because here’s the problem, if you move to a new environment like I’m doing but you bring your dog with you, that dog can just cross-contaminate your home- your new home.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: And so, people like, “Oh I don’t bring my possessions”, but you brought your dog. So, we have to address that, we’ve got a special mold solution that we’re using to wash all of our laundry, our clothes, our blankets in, uh- and then we’re probably just gotta be ditching some personal possessions. So, it’s uh- it’s unfortunate. But, you know, I’d rather have health and have like a nice or whatever. I can always buy new possessions.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. So, we ran the ImmunoLytics test. We saw a very high levels of various mold toxins. What type of mold specifically? You mentioned candida; so, was it the lo- literally the candida albicans or the candida krusei, what specific candida species, and what other mold species came back in that test?

Evan Brand: I don’t think it shows the specific type. I believe they gave you a- they call the genus, which is basically the big group- [crosstalk]… Yeah, it does not say…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Just like ochratoxin, trichothecene, aflatoxin, I forget the big 4.

Evan Brand: All they is- is candida.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Evan Brand: All they say is candida, doesn’t which type. Uh then it shows like Cladosporium, microsporum, nocardia, ___[06:16], uh penicillium. So, some of these are new because these are not things that you and I are seeing on urine or stool testing. These are things that are only environmental. So, some of this is new for you and I. We’re having to become experts at these because of my situation. Right. Uh, the plate testing does get a lot of flak- people talk a lot of- uh crap about it, I’ve got some push back on my Facebook page sharing this story and I’ve got some hate mail through email about people saying, “How dare you promote plate testing, duh-duh-duh-duh-duh… air testing is the best”. Look, here’s the thing, plate testing is not the best, but for the cost, you get really bang for your bucks. So, yeah, just like in functional medicine, there are really good and then there’s amazing test for the price in what we’re getting. We’re looking for the tip of the iceberg here, and that’s what the plate testing provides.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. And also, some of the remediation options that you’re going under, they don’t have to be super expensive, there are some essential oil, and some enzyme-based uhm- remediation that’s on the cheaper side that can be done. And also, a couple things, is we also compared your urinary mold as well. So, that kinda helped, so we- we didn’t just say, “Okay, let’s just only go off of the plate, let’s look at urinary mold that’s excreted in the urine. And then, let’s also look at how do you feel when you leave the house for a week or two. So, I know when you got in the hotel like in- in a better hotel room for a week or two and you worked there, you noticed you felt much better. And again, your stress didn’t change, you were still working, you were still seeing patients, just the environment change. So that was one aspect too that we knew that when you change environments, we saw a big different symptomatically as well.

Evan Brand: Yeah, and we’ll have to do a podcast. First of all, I’ve got a- I’ve got a just- uhm, learn more myself,  even speak more on this topic at an expert level ’cause I’m not there yet but, you know, they- there’s something called Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, there was another one called CIRS, C-I-R-S, Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome where your bucket is just so full that you can react to everything, and I believe I’m having a combination of both of those things happening to me, because you and I chatted last week. I went to the grocery store, and uh- the pharmacist on staff at ImmunoLytics told me to stay out of grocery store for 3 months because of all the condensation from the refrigerators and the freezers at grocery stores contributes the high moisture, therefore moisture equals mold. And so, I went into this grocery, with my wife, and within 30 seconds in me walkin’ in, I was so dizzy, I had to turn around. So, I am limited in where I can go. And it’s uh… it’s kind of a burden but it’s really cool to be able to see ’cause Dave Asprey, he used to talk about how he could go into a building and say whether it was moldy in 30 seconds. And I was like, “Ugh! Really?”, like come on, you can tell me if there’s mold in there, I believe him now because if I go to certain places, within a minute or two, I get dizzy and I’m like, “Ugh, I gotta get the hell out of here”. I- I went to target with my wife, this one target was really bad, we went to a different target, that target was perfectly fine. I had no dizziness. So, not all buildings are safe and not all buildings are dirty. So, it’s uh- it’s crazy, it really is.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then we have some of the air testing that can be done which is the ERMI testing, which is too reasonable, I think that can be done well. And then we have the plate testing, and one thing is, you noticed in your office, where [clears throat] had a different air supply, and I think it was under a different roof so to speak. It showed very low on the mold test. So, that’s at least the good thing where- it wasn’t like your whole house. It was moldy, it was primarily your office, was it?

Evan Brand: Yeah, the upstairs, you know, we have one of those little hotel units in there, kind of like a- a separate heating and cooling unit up there? And it didn’t have any of the ductworks. See, the ductwork was the problem. ‘Cause this return vent was sucking all the moldy air and just re-circulating it through the house, pumping it into our closet, getting all over our clothes, and I was wearing those moldy clothes and going up in my office. So, I was cross-contaminating my office with my clothing. But now we’re doing this mold solution and I’ve also got a special uhm- shampoo and body wash I’m using. And that’s helping too, like when we- went over to my grandmother’s house, I got really dizzy. And so, when we came back from her house, I just change my clothes and I washed myself. Took a shower, and I felt better. My dizziness was gone within half an hour after the shower. So, these mycotoxins, they can stick to your skin, they can stick to your pet, they can stick to your hair follicles, so for me, that’s more motivation for me to keep my haircut a bit shorter. ‘Cause if you have a long, big old afro of hair, there’s a lot of room for mycotoxins to hide in your hair, and you put that on your pillow, and then you’re breathing in mycotoxins as you sleep. So, no afrols for me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. And what was the name of the uh- the solution that you use to clean your pet, as well as your hair?

Evan Brand: Yeah that’s the same company, Cit- Citrus-A.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Citrus-A.

Evan Brand: Yup, and uh- they have a- they call it like a bio balancing shampoo and body wash and they have a pet solution. And uh- uh- you know, I’ve got a- uh- practitioner account with them which you can get one too, and that way we can sell it to our clients which is great.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, that’s good. Awesome. I’ll make sure I’ll get this on my site. Now you’re using this for your laundry now and your detergent?

Evan Brand: Yeah, we’ve got the mold solution too for the laundry, so, we just do, I think it’s a 1 ounce uh- serving of solution. You put it in the washer, and that’s gonna take care of all the mycotoxins on the clothing, which is very-very important. You know, I’ve read some of these mold stories on the forums and these Facebook groups I’ve been part of. That- you know, people come home and they change their clothes. And I use to think that was extreme but I’ve actually felt the difference. When I come home from a moldy environment, I just put on a new set of clothes, and I feel better. So, this is not- you know, this is the unfortunate thing about mold is that, uh people get diagnosed as crazy and they get put on psych meds, and they’re not crazy at all they’ve just got a multiple chemical sensitivity, mass cell activation problem going on, they’re not crazy at all. They’re just so sensitive and doctors don’t understand this. So, they just label ’em as nuts and put them on under depressant. They’re not nuts at all, trust me, I’m in the trenches right now with this carp and it makes you feel crazy but you’re not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well it’s affecting your brain, right? So, obviously, mycotoxins and these mold toxins can affect your gut. They’re gonna increase gut permeability, correct?

Evan Brand: Yeah, and they uh, create a leaky brain, too which is why…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Great.

Evan Brand: …you have to clear out your sinuses. So, Citrus-A f- also makes another product I’m doing which is a nasal rinse with essential oils, because… uh, if your sinuses have mold in them, that’s so close to the brain, it goes right through the blood brain barrier every time you breath.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So, rinsing up the sinuses are important. And then also cleaning the pets, cleaning yourself as well. And then a couple other things. We were just on the topic of cleaning, shampoo, and so right now…

Evan Brand: -We talked about testing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …testing, great. And then right now, let’s kinda go into where the mold was coming from in your house. I think we saw, there was a vent in your attic, it was boarded off incorrectly, and there was also a water leak behind your cabinet. Let’s go into where the vectors in your house, where the mold and, how’s that being addressed?

Evan Brand: Yeah, so there was a faulty- what they call a seal cock valve down in the crawlspace which connects to the front spicket of the home. So, that had either froze or busted, or was leaky, or something which contributed to water in the crawlspace. And that water wants to evaporate back up into the sun to make clouds so that it can rain. So whatever water is, it wants to go up. So, guess what’s between the crawlspace and the sky? My house. So, that water was evaporating from the crawlspace up through the subfloor, wi- just creating high humidity in the home. High-humidity equals mold. And so that’s why we had- it wasn’t a leak in the cabinets but there was mold in the cabinet, due to all the moisture coming up from down below. So that was part of the problem. And then as you mentioned the attic, that was contributing to mold down in the living area. So, for trying to point fingers here, we have to point fingers at both issues. From above and below, we have moisture problems.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Very interesting. So, you’re on top of it. So, right now you’re having the attic ventilation issues fixed, you’re having the crawl space issue I think fixed as well and then you’re in the process of everything getting remediated via an enzyme and/or essential oil method, correct?

Evan Brand: That’s right. Yeah, we’re probably gonna go at the essential oil blend ’cause it is a bit more cost-effective, it’s about 2 or $3 I believe per square foot versus the enzyme blend is around $5 a square foot. So, it’s a lot of money that can add up if you’re doing the enzyme solution. And with some of the testing that we’re doing, we’re not really seeing that the enzyme blends are much more effective than the essential oil blends. And these are both alternative solutions, chemical solution is the primary treatment for like black diamonds and all these other generic mold killers, it’s a bunch of crap. You don’t wanna do that, it just pisses the mold off. You don’t wanna do standard mold remediations, not safe. Bleach, all that stuff, bad news.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, right now, you’re trying to do- uh you’re favoring the enzymes over the essential oils, or you’re leaning to-

Evan Brand: -No.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -the essential oil over enzymes?

Evan Brand: I- I’m leaning to the essential oils because I talked with JW at the lab…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Yeah.

Evan Brand: …and he looked at before and after results using the enzyme, and it compared it to before and after using the essential oil blend, and determined the essential oil blend is just as good, if not, better, and it’s…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -And it’s cheaper.

Evan Brand: …half the price.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, I’m just curious, what happens to like the dead debris or the exoskeletons? I mean, does the essential oils just encapsulate all of it? There must be dead debris leftover. What happens to that? How does that get cleaned up?

Evan Brand: The best thing to do is to have a HEPA vacuum, which there’s one called Miele, which…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Yeah.

Evan Brand: …is one I just purchased…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Yeah.

Evan Brand: …it’s M-I-E-L-E.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, it’s actually a…

Evan Brand: It’s really cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, it’s close enough. It- it’s Swedish brand. M- Miele.

Evan Brand: Did I say it wrong?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Okay.

Evan Brand: Miele?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love ’em ___[15:26] it’s awesome vacuum.

Evan Brand: Okay, but I didn’t know you had it. Cool. So, so uh- so that is the one that was recommended by some of these mold experts. And it’s got a HEPA system on there and it’s a close HEPA with a bag. ‘Cause some HEPA systems are bagless, and when you suckle that debris up on the floor, you just pump it back out into the air. So, because it’s a closed system, that’s the highest recommended one. To come in after the- the fogging job has been done, you come in and do the- the HEPA vacuum on everything and then at that point, you should be in the clear. But for me being so sensitive, I’m probably not gonna take all my- my physical possessions. I’m gonna be super careful about what I bring with me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: Even computers. Here’s the bad thing, a lot of people are saying like this laptop I’m talking to you on right now, people are saying I should be getting rid of this laptop because the mold is inside of the- uh fan and that- when the fan kicks on, it’s gonna pump the spores back out. So, I tried to do this mold solution, and spray it into the computer and use an air duster like compressed air, and that’s supposed to help, but I- I- I- I’m not sure yet, I haven’t- you know, noticed feeling significantly worse when using the computer, so I’m just trying to gauge…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: …whether I can keep this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I would think you could spray one side and put the- put the Miele vacuum on the other.

Evan Brand: That’d be cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You know, force it all the one direction, I- I would imagine that be helpful because I mean, you’re gonna pull a lot of that mold out with that vacuum.

Evan Brand: That’s a good idea, I should try that, I haven’t done that yet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You know, if you can just control one site, ’cause it’s gotta be vents on both sides. I think you have a Mac, right? So, use control on one side…

Evan Brand: Yeah, the on this- on- on this Mac, the vents are just right where I can feel it. The fans are on right now. Uh, the fan is right where the screen connects to the keyboard, right in this little V in the 90-degree angle, that’s where the fan vents are, so I need to shut it- [sips], just suck it up and hopefully it works.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, I’ll just open the thing up and then just vacuum it up that way. And then…

Evan Brand: Yeah, I mean I could, there’s like these weird proprietary screws on here. If I could…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh yeah.

Evan Brand: …unscrew the thing and then…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Yeah.

Evan Brand: …vacuum it out, that’d be great.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Okay, that’s cool. And so right now, so you were saying, ugh! I missed that last part again, so- oh yeah, you- we just said that- the HEPA filter will be kind of the best way to- to get it up and get it to closed loop, it’s not gonna pull the mold back out like a lot of other vacuums made.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk]

Evan Brand: Yeah, so that’s the end- that’s like the- the- the, and you know, kinda like the functional medicine order of operations, that’s kind of the order operations. Last step, suckle the crap out that you pulled out the sky.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You know, a lot people are asking, well, we know that you’re- you’re moving as well. Now, you’re not moving strictly because of the mold, right?

Evan Brand: No, I mean, you know, you’ve been telling me, “Hey, Evan, your house is gonna be too small when you have 2 kids”, and I’m like, “dang it”, it, because, you know, our house, we’ve built it too small. It was a 1600 square foot house. We just built it too small thinking…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: …”oh we’re minimalist, we don’t need any room”, but, with the home office and with 2 kids running around, it’s gonna be a bit crazy. So, I’m kinda using this mold thing as the final straw for me to say, “Hey, I should have listened to Justin and built the bigger house, but now I’m just gonna have to purchase a bigger house.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And which is great too, because you got that house all remediated for the next person that comes in. So, they’re gonna have a great- uhm- living situation as well. I know a lot people, they’re kinda like under the wraps, they kinda like, “Okay, you know, I’m not gonna remediate” and they just kind of move on, they let it slide under the radar, so it’s good that you got this house all cleaned up too, that’s great.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I- I couldn’t sleep at night if I would just try to do that. I’ve heard a lot of airbnb, people, the reason they put their houses on airbnb, according to this mold experts is ’cause the house is too moldy and they don’t have the money or the interest in remediating the home to sell it, so they just put it on airbnb instead. ‘Cause they don’t like airbnb is gonna say, “Hey do you have mold in your house? Yes or No. Yes, you do, oh, okay, you can’t rent it.”. So, all these people, on these mold forums and Facebook groups, they talkin’ out how they can’t go to airbnb’s because so many of them are contaminated by people trying to pull fast, wanna make money on the moldy house which is just totally, just freaking wrong. But that’s society, so, wha- what can we do?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah a- and again, there’s a significant percent of the population that does not gonna react, like, “I- I don’t really…

Evan Brand: That’s true.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …react to these issues”. So, I mean, you know, as long as it’s not something that’s visible, right? Like black molds…

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …in the bathroom or something like that, you know, most people are probably gonna be okay. But, you know, like someone like yourself or David Asprey, you gonna just have to be more choosy in where you stay, for sure.

Evan Brand: Yea- yeah, and tend to be clear that we didn’t see any visible mold but I also ha- wasn’t a trained eye. So, after the mold experts came in and showed me what I was looking at, I did see it. It was just a white fuzzy looking stuff in our ca- in our cabinet. I mean, it just looks like dust. But it wasn’t dust, it was millions and millions and millions of spores. But it wasn’t like, “Oh my God, black mold”, no. This was just a l- a light dusting of snowflakes. It’s kinda what it looked like.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And then, did you have any smell, and a yeasty kind of smell or moldy kind of smell in your house at all?

Evan Brand: You know what, I didn’t smell anything, but my wife said that when heat would kick on, she would smell some smell coming out of the vents. I never smelled it though so, maybe that was it, maybe that was something else.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay. And then just curious, what’s your take on some of the- the mold disinfectants for like mildew in the bathroom? And do you have an issue with those?

Evan Brand: I think the enzyme solutions are gonna be a good…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s better.

Evan Brand: …a good formula or the essential oil blends. There is a mold concentrate that you can use, and you take like a one cup and you turned it into like a gallon or something, you’d mix it with water and you can wipe materials down, put it in a spray bottle, you know, they’ve got tried into lab testing on that. So that is something that you and I are gonna have to start caring ’cause it’s a great product and it’s not too expensive.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I personally don’t mind any of the mold and mildew stuff in the bathroom personally just because it’s being sprayed, scrubbed, and then rinsed down, so it’s not like it’s sitting there, uhm- you know, later, where- I think the es- the benefit of the essential oil stuff is you could spray it, let it sink, you didn’t have to worry about rinsing it ’cause it’s non-toxic.

Evan Brand: Exactly, and you know, if s- somebody were very sensitive like me, I would probably just wear one of those 3M- N95 mask, those particulate mask-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: -those would be good enough to help if you- if you’re concerned about you getting sick, try to clean some of the stuff. There’s also another uh- filter you can get, it’s a bigger respirator system called a PSM- uh- P100, and that’s a type of filter that does filter out uh, mold spores. So, you can do that for safety if you had to.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. And also, what’s your take on the- the concrobium compound as well that does more of the encapsulation of the mold? Thoughts on that?

Evan Brand: I don’t have a- I don’t have clue about it, I can’t speak on that. I don’t- I- I’m not educated on it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ve seen it recommended by a few remediation specialists where it’s just- it’s really just designed to encapsulate the mold and- and prevent it in spreading and such.

Evan Brand: Oh, wow, no, I’ve got no idea-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: This one on toxic. Okay, well next time you get on the phone with JW, ask him about concrobium.

Evan Brand: I will.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. And then, let’s just talk briefly about a couple of the compounds, some of the ingredients that you’re using- we’re using right now to help you on the detoxification side. So, what- what are some of these actual compounds? What are they?

Evan Brand: Yeah, so conventional treatment is something called cholestyramine. Uh- I’m not using that, as a pharmaceutical they have another one called ___[22:11], I’m not using that either. Uh- I’m just doing a formula from beyond balance called tox-ease bind which is a blend of Shilajit and charcoal, and I’m actually feeling really good with that. I told you today and yesterday or the first days, thank the Lord, I’m actually not as dizzy as I have been for 6 to 7 months. I’m actually starting to get better with my dizziness. Now if I detox too fast, uhm- then I don’t get a- the- then- if I detox too fast, I get more dizzy, if I detox uhm- slower, I’m less dizzy. So, so it’s a balance. So, charcoal i- is one peice of the puzzle. Uhm Shilajit’s another piece of the puzzle, and then in terms of, uh- antimicrobials, you and I both have our own custom blends of antimicrobial. So, I’m mixing and matching things, I won’t mention exact specific protocols right now because this is all an experiment and I don’t want somebody to hear this and thing, “Hey, Evan’s protocol is the protocol I should do”, but let’s just say I’m doing anti-fungal herbs. So, some some of it include like olive leaf…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Chlove, right? [crosstalk]

Evan Brand: …I’m doing some chlove, I’m doing some ___[23:13], uh- I’m doing some French tarragon leaf, I am doing a little bit of oregano cycling on and off of it. But, I’m not gonna say a full protocol yet because maybe this isn’t the right stuff. I’m still experimenting and rotating in a lot of things. So, I don’t have like, here’s the thing you should be doing on paper yet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We do have some good binders though, right? We had some of the activated cur- charcoal, some of the- the minerals that you mentioned as well, and then also, you’re still incorporating some of the- the- this modified citrus pectin as well?

Evan Brand: I have it, I’ve got it at home, uh- I would like to do some of the citrus pectins but I have it at the house and, I’m- you know, I’m in this hotel so I just haven’t been taken that yet. But yeah, but that’d be another good solution. I do have some zeolite products as well, uh- those are also supposed to help in mycotoxins. I’m just not currently taking ’em.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How about the glutathione too?

Evan Brand: Yeah, I’m doing glutathione. Yup, I’m off right now for a few days, but I have been on that consistently at about 3 to 600 milligrams per day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. So, I think just- if anyone’s listening to this, and there’s noticing some correlation, dizziness, and weird neurological symptoms, definitely, reach out to your functional medicine provider. If you don’t have one reach out to me- myself or Evan and let’s get your house tested. Let’s potentially get you tested. Let’s look at, you know, utilizing some detoxification protocols to help one the gut, to help one the nervous system, the immune system, and get some of these toxins out because once you have a leaky gut, you got a leaky brain, all of the inflammation that goes to the brain is gonna create neurological issues. Either mood, or brain fog, or just fatigue, or- or lethargy, and I think it’s really important to kinda highlight the fact that, when you throw more androgens, which is a foreign compound, more stressors, you fill up that stress bucket, it’s like my coffee mug where it can overflow. It’s kinda like you walk around with a coffee mug and someone filled to the top, you’re like, you gotta be like a little mummy as you walk around holding it versus if you fill it down here, you kinda have a little more wiggle room to move. And that’s kinda with your situation right now with your bucket, right? You mentioned your stress bucket, that antigenic bucket is just so full, so, you add a little bit of mycotoxins in your house, it’s like, boom, you’re overflowing.

Evan Brand: Yeah, it’s not fun. I wouldn’t wish upon anyo- anybody. But it is a good experience. I mean, a lot of people, uhm, relate to you and I- because of how much suffering we’ve gone through. We’ve gone through issues of hashimoto’s and gut infections, I’ve gone through gut infections, I’ve gone through candida, and now I’m going through mold. So, I guess at the end of the day, it will make uh- us better practitioners, for us to have to- we have to become experts on this because, there’s only a few docs in the U.S. who the- we can’t even look up to, to learn this information. So, lot of this is really just an experiment and, uh- I am grateful for the opportunity to be able to have voices like we do to spread this information because there are so many people suffering. If you just google uhm- mold symptoms shoemaker, uh- Ritchie Shoemaker’s got a list of about 39 different mold symptoms, anything from fatigue to ringing in the ears which I had, to diarrhea which I had, to insomnia, which I had, and my blood pressure problems, and cold hands cold feet. If your hands and feet are cold, that was me, that’s also biotoxin problem. Multiple chemical sensitivity, fragrances, perfumes, charif sauce, that multiple chemical sensitivity is a byproduct of biotoxin exposure. You don’t just magically become sensitive to smells, you become sensitive to smells after you get exposed to mold. And that’s weird because my wife didn’t used to be sensitive, now some nice perfume, she’s like, “Oh, my God, they’re perfume!”. She used to not be like that, and that’s ‘cause she was living in the moldy house with me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, one thing to highlight, a lot of these mold symptoms, we’ve talked about it- it’s a rabbit hole of functional medicine, meaning, lots of people have other issues that aren’t the primary- the mold is not their primary issue. Now just to be clear, you know, with yourself Evan, we dug deep and addressed lots of other issues. And we had you kinda at a place where you were stabilized until this mold exposure happened the last year. So the- the mold wasn’t the- the chief issue years ago. It’s a- it’s a relatively new issue, but we had cleaned other issues out, leading up to this. So, it’s important that everyone listening, work with your functional medicine provider to make sure you deal with all of the key-core adrenal, hormone, thyroid, gut, detox issues first, because so much of these mold symptoms if they are there, can improve just by dealing with the foundational tenets of functional medicine. Many people may not have to go to that extreme. With Evan, all that was already done, and then mold came later on when he moved into this house and have the leak and have the ventilation issue. But it was something that was addressed later, not before. Now again, why would we address it sooner and not later? If you move into a new house, and you noticed you start feeling bad. If you noticed that when you’re leaving your house, for a week, you’re out of your house for a week, uhm- business or whatever, you feel better. Then, we may wanna dive in and do some testing, but you still gotta deal with the foundations of functional medicine. You can’t ignore that and just go to the ___[28:09], and they still don’t get all the way better.

Evan Brand: Yes, same with lyme disease, and I’m so glad you brought that point up, you know, this conversation you and I are having today is a culmination of 5-plus years of personal work on me. I’ve been in the trenches fixing everything else for a long time, now I’m approaching mold versus somebody just now hearing this conversation. You can’t go from a standard american diet, tons of gut infections, bad sleep, you’re on your smartphone at 1:00AM, you’re working night shift, you feel like crap, you’re just gonna go straight to mold, you’re probably not gonna win. You gotta do the other foundations first, but that never gets old to hear that refreshing message again.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% man. So, anyone listening to this and they’re- they’re not quite sure where to go, make sure you go- head over to, or and schedule a consult with myself and or Evan so we can dive in deeper, and come up with a strategy plan for you. Also make sure you subscribe to the podcast. Make sure you subscribe to the YouTube channel so you can kinda chime in here live with us, and also uhm- potentially get some of your questions answered with some of the live Q&As we do throughout the week. So, make sure you subscribe, give us the thumbs up, hit the bell that allows notifications so you know when our contents coming up, subscribing’s not enough, you gotta hit the bell as well which is next to the subscribe button. And uh- give us a review on iTunes, we appreciate it, and then, and how would they go to your iTunes page, Evan?

Evan Brand: I believe it’s uh- as well…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, good.

Evan Brand: …but let me confirm…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Perfect.

Evan Brand: Let me confirm here. We’ve got, let’s see here… If you just google evanbrand iTunes, it’ll pop up. I don’t have that link set up to evanbrand.iT- .com/iTunes, won’t work. Just evanbrand iTunes and find us. You know, between us both, we’ve got over 60,000 people subscribed on YouTube channels, uh- hundreds and hundreds of reviews on iTunes, but it’s still not enough because this information is not mainstream. You go down the street and talk to some random guy on the street corner about mycotoxins, he’s got no clue what you’re talking about, so Justin and I, you know, yeah, we make it a little bit of ego boost if we say, “Oh, 50,000 subscribers”, but that still a drop of- that’s still a drop in the bucket. We have millions and millions and more people to help with this issue. This is a very underdiagnosed and under-appreciated problem in the modern healthcare industry.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, we appreciate it. Give us the share, give us the thumbs-up and the like. I’ll be back later on this week for a more live Q&A, so make sure you checked in here with me. And you guys have a phenomenal day, we’ll talk real soon. Take care.

Evan Brand: Take care. See you, bye.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.


Nasaline Nasal Rinsing System

Dr. Tim Jackson – Mitochondrial dysfunction, mold and MTHFR solutions – Podcast #124

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Dr. Tim Jackson dive into a stimulating discussion about mitochondria, the enzyme MTHFR, genetic testing, and mycotoxin. Join them and pick up some valuable information as Dr. Tim Jackson shares his knowledge and expertise on gene SNPs, factors that affect them, the supplements he recommends, as well as the approach he implements to create a positive impact on someone’s health. 

Learn about the mitochondria’s function and discover its connection to the Kreb’s cycle and electron transport chain, both of which are naturally occurring chemical reactions in our bodies. Know and understand the different mitochondria-related issues like infections, low iron and low B vitamins. Get valuable insight on how these issues are tested, including the diet, nutrients and supplements to support the mitochondria. And lastly, gain helpful information about mycotoxin and find out different ways to prevent and get rid of them.

 In this episode, we cover:

4:11   Mitochondria

15:20   Bacterial infections

21:50   Iron and B12 issues

27:10   Glutathione

35:41   Gene SNPs (MTHFR, APO, PON1)

49:13   Mycotoxins








Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey there! It’s  Dr. Justin Marchegiani. We got Dr. Tim Jackson back on the show. Really uh, excited to dig in to some MTHFR, some genetic testing. Maybe we’ll even talk about some mycotoxins. Who knows if we’ll have enough time to get it all. Doctor Tim, how we doing today?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I’m doing great, Evan Justin. How you doing’ sir?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wonderful, wonderful, man. Glad that we’re in touch and your back on the show.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, it’s fine. It should be a good time today.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well let’s dig in, man. What’s new on your radar and functional medicine land?

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know, I’ve just been delving deeper and deeper into mitochondria. And you know- I am always up for myself whether through research, dealing with clients and patients. You know, what I can do to make everything else work better. And you know- almost always I find myself saying, “Well, make mitochondria work better.” And  so, looking at different therapies to, you know- protect mitochondria, to rehabilitate the cell membrane, uhm to make sure it has no optimal fatty acid composition-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm

Dr. Tim Jackson: To make sure environmental toxic load is reduced as much as possible so that the Krebs in TCA cycle can go on. And in making sure the two rate-limiting factors oxygen and ubiquinol or CoQ10 are present in adequate amounts. Uhm- one just quick aside, is that even low-level sleep apnea will affect your mitochondria negatively.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Alright. So we need oxygen. Sleep apnea is basically that delay where you just stop breathing while sleeping. And with sleep apnea, typically inflammations gonna be driving that. Is that correct?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And it’s a self perpetuating type cycle where inflammation driving it want that- wants that inflammation gets going uhm- it has a self-perpetuating mechanism especially- I know this is a $64,000 word- cytokine or inflammatory molecules-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: interlude six.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So true coz I notice every now and then I’ll have like a little sleep apnea episode like where I wake just kinda like gasping for air.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And it’s typically at nights where I have like a glass of wine or maybe have something I shouldn’t have. I noticed that food allergen response really has an effect on my airway and I wake up with a hypoxic type of you know, gasping episode. So I know that inflammation and even food allergens can be a subtle you know, causative factor for that inflammation.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. Anything that uhm- creates inflammation you know or contribute to the burns and turns out there, but what we called that, our static load-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, stress bucket

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah- your stress bucket, exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bingo.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so you know, we might be someone that we you know, label as a hothead or they can’t tolerate stress. They may have a ton of physiological imbalances and all their ATP energy being diverted to that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. I always tell patients like yeah, physical, chemical, and emotional stressors. Physical could be too much or too little exercise. It could be chronic pain from an injury. You also have the chemical stressors, whether it’s food or infections or metals, or mold, or food allergens, or low stomach acid or etc. And then you have obviously, the emotional stress- relationships, finances, uhm- family, work. All of those stressors are like a little ball that go into that stress bucket. When that bucket starts overflow, that’s where your kinda allostatic is tapped out. And that’s where symptoms tend to tend to occur. And then typically allostatic, allopathic medical world, symptoms =  drug prescriptions. Then drug prescriptions have side effects, which cause more symptoms. So you’re in this vicious cycle where medicine actually tries to solve allostatic load problems or stress bucket problems by actually giving you more stress. And so in functional medicine world, we’re trying to actually take those stress balls out of the bucket, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. The more stressors that we can take uhm- off our bucket, you know- we wanna try and eliminate as many stressors humanly possible. Uhm- and the ones that we can’t completely eliminate, we wanna certainly mitigate as much as possible.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. And let’s go back into the mitochondria because basically the mitochondria is kinda the powerhouse of ourselves. It’s- you have what’s called the Krebs cycle, which is part of the mitochondria we you’re generating ATP, you’re generating these uhm- reducing agents call FADH 2 and NADH. And you’re basically grabbing hydrogen molecules-these electron to then bring those over to the electron transport chain so we can generate more energy. Would you mind talking more about the mitochondria and just how it connects into the Krebs cycle, the electron transport chain, and even uh, even glycolysis, too?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So when we think about mitochondria, we always talk about, “Oh, those are batteries of the cells”. They provide your energy source, your energy currency, the ATP. But what we’ve learned in the past 10 years is that they do so much more than that. Uhm, I actually have a 400 and something page e-book on mitochondria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow

Dr. Tim Jackson: -that goes into details. And if, like I said it’s one of those dots that you know, you can connect pretty much every illness out there uhm- to some degree to mitochondrial dysfunction. And producing energy you know, fats, carbs, proteins, get broken down and go into the energy producing, the Krebs cycle. And uhm- you get oxy dephosphorylation and fatty acid burning in the mitochondria. But mitochondria- some of the other roles that they participate in, one is self sensing and signaling. So uhm- you know, controlling how they’ll wind up in the age of extracellular matrix for that little area that surround the groups of cells. Uhm, it’s important for growth factor uhm- sensing, uhm- immune function because a lot of times what happens is you know, people may test the account or the amount of immune cells that they don’t pass the activity of them. And a lot of our means, those require a lot of ATP. And uh, your immune function may not be working very well because you don’t have enough energy to heal. Healing takes a ton of energy. And so you know, if we have a lot of other stressors, the ATP or the energy currency is gonna be going down that pathway.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Now, how does the electron transport chain and the Krebs cycle connect in with the mitochondria?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So the mitochondria have an inner mitochondrial membrane and an outer mitochondrial membrane. And you have certain fatty acids in on those membranes. And what happens is that we inherit our mitochondrial DNA from our mom and you can have mutations in mitochondrial DNA. But more often, you have what we call mitochondriopathies, which is just a fancy term for damaged mitochondria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so anything that damages the mitochondria, and the most common things are environmental pollutants, persistent organic pollutants-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -and disrupting chemicals. Or we can have what Dr. Alex Vasquez calls uhm- a microbial mitochondriopathy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmm

Dr. Tim Jackson: So you have an infection, maybe you go through a period of stress, a virus gets reactivated. Well, that inflammatory cascade that’s produced, even if you don’t know the name, you felt it before, that’s called a cytokine storm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And those inflammant there’s prone, inflammatory cytokines and anti-inflammatory cytokines. And when you have a lot of stealth pathogens or microbes and bugs build up in your body uh, there’s a constant low-grade level of inflammation. And our mitochondria are extremely susceptible to free radical damage. And that’s important point because the two antioxidants that we need to protect us or protect our mitochondria are glutathione which you know, we both love-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah

Dr. Tim Jackson: And you and superoxide dismutase. So if you have- I know you mentioned uhm you know, genetic- genetic testing but if you have certain uhm- polymorphisms which is like a minor version of a mutation, you may not make enough glutathione superoxide dismutase, or you may not recycle them to the reduced state which is how our body needs to use them. So uh, that’s incredibly uh, important because like I said, the mitochondria are very susceptible to oxidative damage, and if you don’t have those two antioxidants there to protect it, uhm- it’s really open to enemy fire.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally makes sense. And so, I’m just kinda comin’ back here for the energy production part. So part of the ATP part is, is through the uh, Krebs cycle as well as the electron transport chain, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly. So electron transport chain is five complexes. And they basically play hot potato-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah

Dr. Tim Jackson: -with electrons. And uh, an important point for people to understand here is that, this is really biophysically driven more than biochemically driven. And what I mean by that is that your body uses photons and protons uhm- and light to uhm- create energy and increase ATP in the mitochondria. And at any time we can uh, tweak or uh, alter biophysical status of the cell or cellular machinery, then we can control multiple biochemical reactions.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. And how about the Krebs cycle, as well? Krebs Cycle’s the same thing. We’re producing all these reducing agents to help basically bring those electrons into the electron transport chain, so they can be kinda tossed back and forth, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly. So you know, protein, carbs, and fats get broken down into a single way so they can go into the Krebs cycle. And uhm- one other thing that’s uh- it’s just on the side you know, we talked about L- carnitine and you know, the benefit to have of carnitine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, it transports fatty acid from the cell, the cytoplasm of cell into the mitochondria where you can uhm- burn fat and through process of beta


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So if you’re deficient in L-carnitine, uhm- you’ll certainly be fatigued because you won’t be able to burn fatty acids.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it. And that’s called the carnitine shuttle. And I appreciate, your- your biochem background. You got a Biochem degree from NC State, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm – NC State, definitely not. Wake Forest, the Wake Forest.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wake Forest. The Wake Forest, okay. Got it. Very cool. Oh, I appreciate Biochem. Brings me back to my undergrad days. I love it. The carnitine shuttle’s so important because basically your body is using carnitine, which is made from two amino acids, methionine and lysine. And it basically shuttles fat into the mitochondria so the fat can be burned up through that betaoxidiation pathway. Now, in my Biochem textbook that I have on the- the shelf behind me here, it was really interesting coz it even said in the biochem textbook that these amino acids methionine and lysine could be deficient in a vegetarian-based diet. So I’m like, this is quite interesting coz the sulfur amino acids are harder to get in these vegetarian diets. So really important. I see a lot of my sicker patients, especially faced with mitochondrial issues, aren’t getting the right fats, aren’t getting the right enough of these high quality sulfur amino acids, especially the ones that may include glutathione, glycine, glutamine, cysteine. And you mentioned earlier that you have to build that membrane, too which we know that the high-quality good saturated fats are gonna be building blocks. So I went off on a tear there but fats, amino acids, and the amino acids for glutathione, which all play into this whole mitochondrial thing, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. So uhm- you know, we can burn uhm- you know, fat and protein. Uhm- you know, the carb advocates say you know, “we have to have you know, glucose or sugar.” But you know, people in the biochemistry, that’s not true. But yet, different environmental toxic can- and nutrient deficiencies can basically block the conversion of one metabolite of the Krebs cycle to another. So-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So you know, you have uhm- a few CoA, pyruvates, all those type of molecules malatase or malate. And the different compounds, metabolites like oxalites, etc. The enzymes that convert them may be impacted negatively by environmental toxicity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes. Totally. And we need all these various nutrients to pump that Krebs cycle up. I mean, some of my, some of the nutrients that I put in my mitochondrial support, called mitochondrial synergy, is obviously the B vitamins are really important, L-carnitine as we already mentioned is really important. I also like Creatine.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I like Alpha Lipoic acid, I like a lot of the Krebs cycle intermediary nutrients like uhm, malic acid, succinic acid, uh the-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Malic acid is good for aluminum detox as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, very cool. Also, I do a little Resveratrol-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -which we know is really good for the electron transport chain and then uhm Alpha Lipoic acid even some Curcumin as well.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, yeah. Curcumin is one of my go to- probably my first go to supplement for mitochondrial help. And it’s more of an indirect effect where it turned down the volume on enough kappa beta.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhm

Dr. Tim Jackson: Which is the uh, molecule coding or trying to read our pro-inflammatory genes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So if we we’re trying to get someone’s diet dialed in, what would that diet look like to that average patient?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- You know, I’m gonna tell people to avoid gluten and dairy in general. Some people they get stressed out over what they’re gonna eat and so I don’t focus too much on the gluten cross-reactive foods. Uhm- but I try to restore and calm down inflammation in the gut lining first and repair the tight gap junction in the microvilli. And uh, I use the product- And again, I’m not connected to this product, but restore, And it works really well in terms of healing the gut lining, but also helping to increase your overall micro biodiversity. And you know, we don’t typically think about the gut mitochondria together, but particular compounds that are released from bacteria in the gut. One is very inflammatory and it’s called lipopolysaccharide.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it increases systemic inflammation greatly. And it turned on those inflammatory genes. So curcumin goes in, and it says, “Nope, must turn that knob back down.” And that’s why I like Curcumin coz it works on so many different levels of law as well as having antimicrobial properties.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What are the big bacterial infections that you’re seeing in your clinic that are driving up the LPS? One of the things I’m seeing with under specific stool test, we’re seeing a lot of H pylori. I’m seeing a lot of Citrobacter, a lot of Pseudomonas aeruginosa.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A lot of Klebsiella. Those are the big things that I’m seeing. What are you seeing, Doc?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Those are the exact same ones that I’m seeing. I’d also add in BlastocysticHominis.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yup. Parasite for sure. Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah and uhm- you know, I’d do the PCR testing which I’d have good results with.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Which one? GI map?

Dr. Tim Jackson: It’s uh, the DRG labs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I use both. I run them both side-by-side.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And uhm- you know, I wasn’t happy when Genova merged with MetaMetrics and they changed one of their pages.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Terrible.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And you know, the price is pretty high, but I like DRG labs. I think it’s you know, more economical. Uhm-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The problem with that is-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes, those are the common infections that I’m seeing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know, along with of course, you know, Candida. But one important point to kinda make about gut health is that one thing I see people forgetting is that they don’t reboot their secretory IGA.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And that’s the imm- mucosal immune system and the gut lining, the lining of the lung, the nasal passages, etc. And if you just go in, and kill off these pathogens are uhm- bad bacteria, they’re gonna come back if you don’t create an environment that is not conducive to their living.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. And you’re doing uh- increase sacamai polarity to help bring up the IGA post uh- infection removal?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I don’t anymore. Occasionally, I do uhm- actually a chiropractor colleague showed me a study that look at those with leaky gut, and you know- some type or some level of neuro-immune syndrome. And he showed that you know- with leaky gut, if you don’t heal below first, taking something like uh-___may actually provoke an autoimmune type reaction. Now the study wasn’t very big but not the principle that people forget is that you know, if you cut your forearm, you’re gonna wanna wipe it off and put in uh you know, Band-Aid on to prevent pathogen entry.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Same type of thing in the gut you know, if you have a leaky gut, you start supplementing with probiotics. Yet some probiotics you know, heal the gut lining but it can lead through and create a huge inflammatory reaction.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I think it’s really important you have a sequence on how you treat infections. In my clinic, we always remove the foods first, like you mentioned. We replace enzymes and acids that’ll help digestion. We repair the hormonal system, whether it’s thyroid imbalance, adrenal, or female, or male hormone imbalances. We support the gut lining nutrients. Then we remove the infections. Then we repopulate probiotics. Then we retest. And I find that water tends to work the best. But I agree that you really have to do all the other things ahead of time so you have the best bang for your bucks when it is time to put the probiotics back in the system.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. I just ran into a lot of people that’d been taken probiotics for years, even good quality probiotics.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And most people think that they just kinda go down there, and set up shop. Uhm, but they don’t realize it’s more of a transitory interaction with the gut associated lymphoid tissue. And that’s why you need to constantly you know, have the intake of bacteria because our ancestors that’s what they were exposed to you know, based on the soil.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. That’s why you do a lot of fermented foods. I recommend once my patients are really good and cleaned up, I typically throw a bottle of probotics at once a quarter, as long as they’re getting in good probiotics daily whether it’s with kimchi, or sauerkraut, or Bobby’s fermented pickles, or a low sugar kombucha, not the high sugar uh, alternatives that are- I might as well call them, soda.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, I agree with you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now on the DRG, though they’re not testing the individual bacteria molecules, though. I mean I’m seeing that they’re looking at H- pylori, though look at like some of the transient food allergen or food uhm, poisoning bacteria like Campylobacter or Shigella. But how are you looking at the other ones that I mentioned. The Klebsiella, the Citrobacter, etc.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, I’ll have to go back and look. But I thought that DRG tested for Citrobacter. I could be wrong on that one. But I do- to answer your question, uhm- provide- I go about addressing the gut similar to what you do. But uhm- I provide some broad-spectrum antimicrobial support. One of my favorites, which I know you’ve heard of, is uhm-Parsitan.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And uhm- So you know- again, a lot of these pathogens, like you mentioned, very specific supplementation. Uhm- but you know, some you can eradicate with you know, broad-spectrum biofilm busting and then antimicrobial.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. What’s your favorite biofilm buster?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, I use InterFase Plus.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Klaire Labs

Dr. Tim Jackson: From uh, Klaire Labs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And uh, I have pretty good results with that. Occasionally, I’ll have someone uhm, like I have this guy who’s a yoga teacher and help coach and he’s been doing detox, and this type of stuff for years. And he took uh, just the kind InterFase plus by itself had a very negative reaction. And because he has you know, such a high metal load underneath that biofilm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, the InterFase Plus I think is a EDTA chelating compound that so of the biofilms will use led in some heavy metals as a kind of a composition for that it so-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh, some of the biofilms will use lead and some heavy metals as a kinda composition for that shield that hold up, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. So they’re using calcium, magnesium-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know that’s a – uhm- a great way for them to hide from the immune cells. Uhm- you know- on top of the bacteria doing the quorum sensing and exchanging DNA, people don’t realize exactly how smart they really are. Uhm- in terms of kinda manipulating our immune system.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm. And just to bring you back a little bit, but you made a couple of really good points early. You talked about oxygen.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And because oxygen is really important because we have various anemias, whether it’s an iron-based anemia, or a B vitamin based anemia. Both are really important for maturation, maturing healthy red blood cells, and helping red blood cells to carry oxygen. So we can’t carry oxygen and we can’t care nutrition, our mitochondria for the most part, screwed. So how are you addressing in your patients optimal iron and/or B12 levels. What are you looking at to assess that?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, you know I think it’s one of those things like, if we just started with a client right now, and we tested for food sensitivities, they you know- light up like a Christmas tree-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, of course.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- and so I tend to work on the gut to improve our iron absorption, uhm-  increase vitamin C levels- 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- to look at those things and look you know- the binding proteins as well. One thing uh- that I learned from Dietrich Klinghardt, he talks about uh- in different pathogens have a different effect on it. But at different stages of an infection, it may drive up creatine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And at some point may drive down creatine. So you know, I felt to- that was kinda interesting. So I do see a correlation with a lot of pathogens. Uhm- you know, that uh, you know, correlates with these issues as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Yeah, my clinic typically the big three things that I see their driving iron issues are gonna be vegetarian diets.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Number two: female hormone issues that are driving excessive menstruation or hemorrhage.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Or number three: is just gut malabsorption. They have low stomach acid. They can’t ionize minerals, or they have leaky gut and malabsorption.  And they just can’t break down some of the, the heme- uhm- compounds in the food. So those are the big three that I see. And we try to work on all of those. Uhm- what are you seeing regarding the female hormone issues and low iron?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- you know a lot of times, I see, you know low thyroid function.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah

Dr. Tim Jackson: And with low iron, and obviously you know, I think I’m learning expression from Apex but they talk about, if you don’t think iron and you don’t fix insulin, you know- nothing else will work.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s a deal-

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, you know, I try to look at you know, the transport proteins uhm- yeah, as well as like what you said, overall absorption and gut health and making sure that people don’t realize how energy intense breaking down protein is. And is a lot of times you know, it’s good beneficial to give the client. I found at least the uhm, essential amino acids on an empty stomach and luckily I just need a steak. I don’t realize that you know- what we’re giving them, hand delivering the bioavailable version of what so many reactions in their body uhm-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I agree. The thermic effect food on high protein compounds like steak is 30 to 50%, meaning- so 50% of the calories that the energy in that food just gets used up in breaking it down. So when you get free form amino acids, you’re basically giving 100% of it versus half of the getting used to pay the bill to break it down, so to speak.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly, exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And how- go ahead, yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Go ahead. No, I’m sorry.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And how are you looking at – how you diagnose B vitamin, like B12 issues, or low iron issues? What test are you running to assess that?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I will run it all on like the urinary iron binding capacity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: York and total iron binding capacity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, B vitamin issues uhm- you know, if someone can do at least what LabCorp was doing I think they still are on RBC D12 and RBC folate-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh

Dr. Tim Jackson: If not, the lab in Germany. They used to have a branch in New Jersey, but they closed Health Diagnostics Research Institute and do a whole, like real time methylation panel that shows what your methylation pathways are doing with the nutrients you have at that specific time slot versus the 23andMe, which is just the genetic or epigenetic blueprint.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, yeah. Uhm- in terms of iron, I look at gut health and think of that nature. And sorry, what was the last part of your question?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: B12. Any other B12 markers?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So I work at you know, the NMA and things like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: From the studies I’ve read like, for example, like many other markersuhm- B12 levels in most Asian countries are much, much higher than here. And there been no documented cases of adverse reactions to B12. The only thing I’ve seen clients is you know, if they have a polymorphism called COMT-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Sometimes too many metal donors a methyl group is just the carbon with three hydrogen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so all the methylation reactions, given to many metal donors they can get overstimulated.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it, man. Very good information. So just kinda recapping here just for all the listeners at home. I know were going really kinda down the rabbit hole. So we’re talking about the mitochondria, powerhouse of the cell. We need healthy fats in our diet. We need to keep the food allergens out. We need to make sure we’re infection-free so the LPS isn’t poisoning our mitochondria. We need healthy nutrients, B vitamins curcumin, house of the nuclear factor kappa beta, good hormones, good absorption, good iron levels, good B12. Is there anything you wanna add to that summary for optimal mitochondrial function for our listeners, Tim?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. It’s just glutathione again.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Because it’s most the depressed on its ability to detoxify. But people don’t realize that it’s an- a natural antiviral that you have to have it for gut healing to occur. Uhm- it’s extremely important in immune function. It’s extremely important in terms of mitochondrial protection. Uhm- and that again, with the other antioxidant superoxide dismutase, that I’ve mentioned.  Now without getting too much into Biochemistry, and instead of kinda just chasten those individual markers, we can take different nutrients or nutraceuticals that increase in RF, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Which activates all of your antioxidant enzymes, and turns off lot of the pro-oxidant uh, signaling it’s going on. And so things that would activate that or things like sulforaphaneuhm, possibly turmeric and resveratrol. But uhm, thinking more of what can I do to affect all the different symptoms and systems, is kind of the approach that I take.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. When you try to improve glutathione levels, do you try to just give some of the amino acids so the patient to make the glutathione? Or do you give the actual liposomal glutathione? How do you differentiate the two?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I use a lot of times, the neurobiological transdermal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- glutathione. Sometimes I’ll use the Apex Energetics Super OxiCell which has glutathione and superoxide dismutase. Uhm- but overall uhm- sometimes I will give people N-acetyl cysteine-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But for some reason, and you made delicious light on this for me, I’ve searched for answer for years- But some people including myself will respond negatively and have a huge metal stir up when they take N-acetyl cysteine but if I take glutathione, I’m fine. Which doesn’t make sense. NAC is the precursor to glutathione. And I’ve had this and a small subset of people like I said, including myself, back many years ago when I took uh- N-acetyl cysteine, you know- I had a major yeast flare and uh- you know, I had a metallic taste in my mouth, all sorts of negative things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The only thing I could think of clinically as the NAC is a pretty strong biofilm buster.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s some kinda biofilm release with the high amount of NAC. I’d be curious if it happens with cysteine uh- or glycine versus just NAC by itself.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Doesn’t’ happen with glycine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So could be a biofilm issue. Wouldn’t be surprised.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Excellent. Well thank you for shedding some light on that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And no problem. And you mentioned the nerve stuff. The nerve uhm- 2 inhibitors there. I think it’s the nerve 2. Is it an activator- no inducers. Nerve 2 inducers that you mentioned. Green tea is also a big one. Milk thistle, pomegranate, even green coffee, ginkgo, olive leaf and then you mentioned the sulforaphane which will be primarily found in your cruciferous vegetables.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, exactly. And uh, you know- we’re talking about these acronyms, enough kappa beta and RS2.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But the take-home message for people is that, instead of chasing you know- just one marker and take one supplement for that, if we can try and control what genes are being read, we can have a lot more impact on someone’s health.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. So let’s segue to the gene portion here. I mean, talked to then Ben Lynch last year in one of the conference that I went to. And he was talking about that everyone’s looking too much of the genes, do so much of the genes or the junk DNA. There’s only a couple of genes that really matter. Obviously his big focus is on the MTHFR gene, which is the methylenetetrahyrdofolatereductase gene SNP. What genes are- do you think are the most important? Coz you know when we look at these gene pages, whether it’s like genetic genie or livewello, you get like 50 pages. It’s super overwhelming and then one page says this, and the other page contradicts the other. So how the heck do you make sense of it all?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well first of all, I’m gonna try to go back to my biochemistry background. You know, when all my you know- friends and everything are ready to get out and finish biology I was really getting into it coz I’m like, if you understand how the cell works, then you can really understand the body.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And uhm- so that- that’s you know, I kinda approach things. It’s looking at the biochemistry. Uhm- but you know, in order to do that you have to test for active biomarkers. So biomarker it can be anything. It can be like a physical measurement like blood pressure, or it can be your iron level, or your testosterone level, or any marker tested through urine sample, uhm- or a stool sample. And so uhm, you know- that’s kinda how I approach uh- thing. That is to look out- take into account the polymorphisms. But I don’t sit there and add them up and say, “okay this, that” It’ll drive yourself crazy, you know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And we have hundreds of thousands of polymorphisms. You know, what are we gonna do when the report reaches 200 pages? 300 pages? I mean- the situation situation where you can’t see the forest for the trees and uh- I’m probably one of the people to blame for that coz is around 2010-2011 I started really talking about MTHFR after learning about it from Kendall Stewart who’s in Austin, Texas.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But I look at uh- GSTM which is glutathione S-transferase.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm GSTP, SOD which stands for superoxide dismutase.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Then when someone have the polymorphism, just so we’re clear, it may mean that the enzyme that tho- gene or that gene is coding for uhm- speed up or they may slow down.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it just depends on the specific polymorphism and uhm- you know, you have to look. So like one polymorphism is called CBS. It’s Cystathionine Beta Synthase or Synthatase. And uh- one of them uhm- speeds up the enzyme whereas another one slows it down. So you may have some canceling out of effects. But what you’re doing is looking in a blueprint. And I call them biochemical hiccups or potential biochemical hiccups. In your physiology, and it’s meant to empower people because then you can bypass you know, these genetic hiccups. Uhm, so to listen to the others that I’ve looked at uhm- one is the APOE, which plays a role-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Cholesterol

Dr. Tim Jackson: -in health as well as your ability to tolerate a Paleolithic type diet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: It also plays a significant role in your ability to detoxify.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And so uh- it really uh- I take a case by case but I tell people, you know- get the printer in me done, fine $9, a one time deal you never have to redo it. But in order to figure out what’s going on, like real time we need to do OATs test.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: – or methylation panel from that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bingo.

Dr. Tim Jackson: – plus all the lab. And you know, what people understand is that you- you may not have any copies of MTHFR, that you can have what I call a functional polymorphism where those pathways are not working because of too much oxidative stress, or environmental chemicals, or nutrient deficiencies.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Malabsorption, gut issues.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Exactly. So lot of times people will say, “okay why are we working on methylation?” I’m like, “We are- We’re working on gut health first, which is gonna help unload the liver. And you know, if you have too many like a lipopolysaccharide-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: It can back up phase 1 detox. So you know, the first step is really working on the things you have to work no matter what your goal is. And so whether someone wants to be pro athlete, have more energy to their kids or grand kids you know- their gut has to function well, just like their adrenal and thyroid.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very Cool. So let’s do a quick rapid fire and just go to the top 10 SNPs. What’s number one?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Okay. Uh- I would probably say uh- MTHFR

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. And we have the-

Dr. Tim Jackson: And then there’s multiple versions of it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Basically, to give people a summary uhm- it affects glutathione production, the production of DNA and RNA, production of myelin that coats our nerves, uhm- the production of neurotransmitters, uhm- and growth factors. And then after that, I would list probably APOE. Then I would probably list the glutathione-related polymorphisms.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And the superoxide dismutase polymorphism. Uhm then I would probably look at uh- the DDR.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup

Dr. Tim Jackson: Which the vitamin D receptor and I would include in there too the BCMO polymorphisms, which prevent the conversion of uhm- beta-carotene into retinoic acid.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And so- then you have to use you know, a more bioavailable form of vitamin A. And you know, people they’re so focused on Vitamin D, they don’t know that Vitamin A is really important for thyroid help and immune function, and gut health. Uhm- so you know, those are the ones that I really focus on. You know, if research comes up tomorrow- Oh, another one that I forgot is PON1, P-O-N 1.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: At- uh, greatly affects your ability to detoxify certain environmental chemicals. So someone has to be a lot stricter with their dirty dozen clean 15 beatings.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Especially if they have a glutathione polymorphism on top of it because you know, there- didn’t have such a reduced capability of detoxifying.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Alright. So we have our MTHFR. We have the APO: APOa1-2. We have the PON1. We have the COMT. We have the glutathione. We have the VDR, the vitamin D receptor. Does that sound about right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yup. That sounds good to me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And I just wanna make sure the listeners really understand coz the big one that’s out there is the MTHFR.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ll just break it down here for a second. We have the C67787. We have heterozygous or homozygous; second we have the C67787. We have heterozygous or homozygous. Heterozygous is you have-

Dr. Tim Jackson: T70 and A2198C. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. A2198C, correct. And the big one is, I think the C is the bigger one of four. And four homozygous in that, that’s an 80% reduction. If for hetero, works only a 40% reduction. And it’s –

Dr. Tim Jackson: More of this- have affect different things-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And again, you know, if you get the report from MTHFR support, they have so many forms of MTHFR. But the two lucky that had been most researched are A1298C.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup

Dr. Tim Jackson: And the- you know, you hear about the C677T because it can lead cardiovascular events, strokes, heart attacks, and associated with elevated homocysteine. Uhm- but you know, you wanna really look at all the other factors that are involved as well. And so, uhm- with different polymorphisms, like I said before, you know- it may just be something that you avoid like in the case of PON1 you know, we need to avoid those certain foods. Uhm- NAT2 is another one that’s involved in the phase- liver phase to detox process called acidulation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And uh- again, this is another example. Some of the NAT2 SNPs will speed up that enzyme. Meaning it labels things harmful but aren’t really harmful. And other forms will slow things down or- so that you miss potentially harmful compounds. So again, you kinda have to look- I look at groups of polymorphisms, overall. And again, if someone’s come to and they have mold practice being asleep in a room like mold, 39:40 listen, MTHFR is not gonna be the first think we’ll work on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right. Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- Yeah. And that’s the time, I approach them uhm, along with healing the gut. And really controlling off the distress because if often distressed inflammation is present, none of these goals can be achieved.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally understand. So with the MTHFR, we have the C and the homozygous, heterozygous for the C6778T or whatever- and then the A1298C. How much percent is reduced depending on whether it’s hetero or homozygous for each?

Dr. Tim Jackson: It’s different for different versions of MTHFR. Ah and uh-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: For the C and A versions.

Dr. Tim Jackson: What’s that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: For the C and A versions-

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, Yes. So the C677T and the A1298C are the two that you’re talking about, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct. Correct.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So the A1298C doesn’t get much attention. It’s more associated with neuro-immune type issues.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Meaning autoimmune disorders, uhm- lupus, sjogren’s, rheumatoid arthirits. Those sorts of things. Uhm- it’s also associated uh- to some degree in the research with autism. Uhm- but research shows for both C677T form and the A1298C form uhm- you know, they are responsible for different things. And again, you haven’t even know there’s dozens of different versions of MTHFR SNPs. Those are just the ones with uh- most research behind them now. And so in order- you asked me how much is that enzyme function reduced, I forget the statistics- you know, varied by ethnicity. Uhm- but again, we have to factor in oxidative stress, uh- heavy metals, uhm- nutrient depletion.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: People don’t take those into account. And I won’t name any names but there’s a lady that you know- wants you to do like $2000 a month of testing and you need if you have the polymorphism, you take these four supplements and that you have this polymorphism to these two and could wind up on like $600 a month of supplement. And you don’t even know if they’re expressing. And so a lot of the so-called uh- polymorphisms will be silent by doing things we discussed, such as controlling inflammation, improving gut health, improving blood sugar, optimizing iron and oxygen delivery. All those things are positive signals sent to our nucleus of ourselves.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So let’s say we have the homozygous of the C677T, so we have that 70 to 80% reduction in that enzyme. So let’s say we’re doing all the downstream things, right. We’re doing the glutathione, the diet, the- the,uhm- oxygen support, the B vitamins. What other supplements would we add in on the methylated nutrient side? Will we just be focusing on L- LMTHF Folate? We do methyl B12, or hydroxyl, or adenosyl B12? Will- what would you recommend on the supplement sites specific for those SNPs?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, first would be- And I know I sound like a broken record- supplements to go after inflammation. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So Carnosine, maybe CBD oil. Uhm- but the- one of the two probably most important nutrients that are crucial for all these methylation reactions, there’s hundreds of them, are magnesium and zinc. You know- let’s not get away from the basic too far here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Of course.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- they’re cofactors. That’s what they are, for enzymatic reactions in the body. And so now I work on repleting someone’s RBC magnesium and RBC zinc. I make sure that we have the other B vitamins like, B1, B2, B3-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: B5. Uhm- and as far as B12, usually most people do pretty well in a combination of the Adenosyl N-Methyl. Like I said, some people who are really sensitive to metal donors uhm- will get overstimulated by too- too much folate and B-12. But one important point I make here- just, I’m not trying to scare people, but a lot of people coming to me with these reports, and uhm- you know they just want to take methylfolate and B12 and be done with it. But if you take those two nutrients in the presence of oxidative stress, you create something called proxy nitrite.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhh-

Dr. Tim Jackson: That is a very harmful compound to all of our cellular structures. And so order here is important. There is a method to demand. And so, you know- again, the other B vitamin cofactors B5, B6, biotin, uhm- you add in B12 and methylfolate is last.  And then for the transport of B12 to get into your cells, you need lithium orotate. Uhm- you know, lithium is important trace mineral.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hum-

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it uh- it has really good properties in terms of neural protection or brain protection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So when we add all these nutrients in, we talked about the magnesium, the zinc, the B vitamins, when would you in particularly use methyl B12 versus the Adenosyl B12 versus hydroxyl B12? How would you apply that specifically with each patient?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So with Adenosyl, it works more on the mitochondria. So if you really have someone with a lot of mitOochondrial issues, I’ll use a lot of Adenosyl.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Methyl, I- what I do is you will start on methyl adenosyl and then later on, when they’re processing uhm- the B vitamins well, I’ll add in you know the methylcobalamin. As far as the hydroxy B12, you can check someone’s uhm– T-ADMA for nitric oxide status. Uhm, hydroxy B12 works on improving nitric oxide levels which-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Tim Tim Jakson: – is you know, important self-signaling molecule in immune function and that’s your function.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Excellent. So anything else you wanna comment on regarding methylation? Do you feel you’ve done a good job hitting all the key points?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. The fact- so many systems in the body and I wanna make an important point here, if you don’t remember anything else. Remember that if you have MTHFR, the more copies you have, the less ability you have to uh- metabolize folic acid. So the whole point here is that-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Folic acid will build up in your bloodstream and studies show that it will lower your natural killer cells, which is not good for fighting pathogens or for cancer risk. And so uh- I see a lot of OB/GYN putting people on folic acid even when they know they have MTHFR.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it just goes back to a fundamental misunderstanding or lack of understanding of basic biochemistry. Because that’s the whole point of MTHFR that you cannot process the folic acid that’s added to things like grains and cereals.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. That’s the key thing is, you gotta make sure you’re at least on LMTHF Folate uh- or Calcium Folinate. But again, if a supplement company chose to put folic acid in there, they’ve really made a statement that they’re undervaluing the raw material that they’re putting in their supplements. So that’s super important and like you said, the refine fortified junk food, is what’s gonna have the folic acid in. It’s gonna be the orange juice, the bread, the grains, that kinda stuff.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Uh and real quick there’s the condition uhm-

called cerebral folate deficiency, whereby you cannot get folate into the central nervous system uhm- in the cerbrospinal fluid uhm- I know there’s- I think one maybe two lab tests for it. When I learned about it was actually a research project by Doctor Quadro’s State University of New York. And uh- different you know, experts or authority years in the area will say you know different things about it. But uhm- with cerebral folate  deficiency, most of the time the way someone supplements is using Leucovorin which is prescription folinic acid.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So we have about folic acid. Well one step more active than that is folinic acid. And I asked Dr.Quadros, “why do you guys use this in the study, that they have MTHFR why not use different–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah

Dr. Tim Jackson: Or when I used up on your you know- L-5-MTHF directly and he said, “One, it was just the way to study was written and two, there’s some potential neurotransmitter neurological uhm- functions that can be improved with Leucovorin versus uh- L-5-MTHF”. But you basically have to hypersaturate the receptors so that you can get transport across the brain and this affects the central nervous system greatly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Excellent knowledge bombs there, Dr. Tim. I wanna give it here briefly, man. I wanna talk about mycotoxins. And mycotoxins are gonna be the toxins produced by mold. We’ve talked about this in our previous podcast that we did. So please refer back to the first podcast. But mycotoxins are really important. Obviously the first line of defense. I’m not gonna put words in your mouth. Correct me if I’m wrong. But get out of the environment where the mold is. That’s probably number one. And number two is it will involve other steps. I wanted to kinda get you a breakdown of what people should do outside of the first step, environmental removal uhm- next to kind of eliminate and reduce mycotoxin exposure.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, yeah. Number one you gotta get rid of the moisture source.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Tim Jackson: So depending on where you live, like I was in South Carolina, I have to have two digimon of fires underneath the house. And I have one running upstairs even during the winter. And uh- you know there’s gonna be mold everywhere. But what happens is in a lot of people think mold is only in older homes. But with new homes, they try to build them to be so energy-efficient that it only leaves a few species of mold in the house. And you know it’s called niche exclusion like in the gut. If you only have a couple species of good bacteria, you can have an overgrowth of those good bacteria and undergrowth of- or deficiency of the others. And uhm- with mycotoxins, we can do a few different types of environmental test. The ones at your hardware store are not accurate. But uh- typically that will come back. There’s one test called an RMI.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: RMI. Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Capital R-M-I. Uhm- and there’s uh- you know, it’s not really new anymore but it’s called the HERTSMI-2 Test. And this third one I’ll mention is the Realtime Lab. They offer environment test. And so wanna test your environment and you’ll be surprised because I know it takes darkness and a moisture source and most people don’t to their ductwork clean enough. And these mycotoxins are very low molecular weight proteins. So most air filters will not get them. But uh- you can have someone who’s certified in testing come in, which I did. And then type up a pretty long report and they list the species that you have and what’s important here is that there are certain genetic glitches. And this is not on a 23andMe but there’s one called the human leukocyte antigen. And there are many of those, but one has to do with your ability to detoxify mycotoxins. I happen to have the worst one called the dreaded genotype. And that means –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, man.

Dr. Tim Jackson: My immune system does not tag mycotoxins when I ingest some, whether it’s through food or breathing. And so they build up in my body. And you wanna talk about something that would disrupt every other system in the body, you can have the male- you can have a testosterone level of a thousand and a great free testosterone level. But if you still have mycotoxins, you’re gonna feel horrible. Your- five different types of your immune cells are gonna be turned off. And that’s just from one mycotoxin called the gliotoxin. And you know, it affects- causes system wide chronic inflammatory response syndrome. And even after the removal of the stressor, your immune system may still be reacting strongly. And so you can kill the mold but a lot of people will use things like ozone and ozone industrial mold. But it releases dead mycotoxins which are immunogenic or stimulating to the immune system. So the most reliable method I’ve come across is using biodegradable enzymes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: It was expensive. It was about $10,000 but I’ve heard of people spinning up to 70 grand per mold for mediation. So you wanna really work with someone who is reputable and you know, who’s not out just trying make money and failed when you did everything to tear down your house. So the- I bring up the genetic glitch that can be tested through LabCorp and there’s five different levels of that genotype. And 25% of the population has one. So what I’m getting at here is that, you can have an allergy or sensitivity to a mold, but the issue that I’m really focusing on here is the inability to detoxify mycotoxins. And that’s where ___ comes in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: We have the dreaded genotype as well. That’s why he makes bulletproof coffee.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Coffee, nuts, grains. Things like that are gonna be resources of mycotoxins available.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Big deal. Uh, but they’re not part of that 25% of the population that have the genetic glitch. And so these things may be- be very small, very low molecular weight, but they can disrupt everything from hormones to brain function, to immune function. Gut health is another one, if you have a client or patient who’s gut won’t heal. I won’t get into why that it has do with the hormone help alpha-MSH. But the mycotoxins- so we talked testing the environment.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Test your body level, there is a urine mycotoxin test RealTime Labs. But there is a kicker to it. You want to do a glutathione push you know, you’re hooked up to the IV and they just push some glutathione or taken a large oral bowl of some glutathione, about 30 to 45 minutes before collecting your urine to this test. Because if I were to take that test, and I didn’t do that, it would come up with low levels because I’m a porch greeter. It’s sort of the same thing as metals.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Metals. Yes

Dr. Tim Jackson: So when I take little time and then check my mycotoxin levels, it will tell me where I am. And uh- the follow-up testing is much cheaper than the original test, which is pretty expensive. But we want check your body burden to see how aggressive we need to be in terms of getting each mycotoxins out. So how we get them out? We bind them up in the bile and/or we use a protocol called the lipid exchange protocol. And it can be a combination of oral and IV fatty acids. And all you’re doing is you’re rehabing the cell membranes. And when you do that, that allows talking to move out and nutrients to move in. and it’s a high-fat diet, uh- moderate protein diet, low carbohydrate diet because you’re trying to reduce positive stress in the cell membranes. And a combination of that, the Patricia- It’s called the Patricia Kane protocol or lipid exchange protocol, along with using binders, works really well. Uhm- you may also have an infection of those mycotoxins. So they may have created a systemic infection. Then you would have to take either herbal, some sort of neutraceutical prescription, antifungal to get rid of that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So looking at all the different options we have, right. We’re decreasing the moisture, the humidifiers, we’re maybe using a mold remediation service that uses some enzyme therapies to help clean things out.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There’s some decent air filters out there that are better that will at least help partially. Uhm- you mention the glutathione, right. Especially like a challenge when you test it with Realtime. But you could probably use liposomal glutathione as well. What about- And you mention the bile, right. So eating fats gonna be helpful coz that will stimulate the bile to release your- stimulate your gallbladders release bile, which is like changing that the gunky oil. What about modified citrus pectin? What about zeolite? What about activated charcoal? What are your thoughts on those things?

Dr. Tim Jackson: From my friends who are certified in the Shoemaker Protocol.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Shoemaker uses a cholesterol medication called cholestyramine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: The issue with that is that-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Super expensive.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You get it sometimes it is very expensive. But two, it’s gonna bind up all your good nutrients.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it usually constipates you. And most people with bile issue’s already constipated.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- But you- that medication and also have aspartame in it. Uhm- for $200 and something for a month supply, you can get it compounded. Uhm- there’s another prescription called Welchol. And again, these are both cholesterol medications.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And it’s interesting because they hand them out like candy for high cholesterol. But when my clients need them for binding mold, they look at you like, “Oh, no! we would never do that.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know. It’s crazy.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But if question about modified citrus pectin and act with a charcoal-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What about bentonite clay?

Dr. Tim Jackson: What- bentonite clay. Yeah. The one that uhm- the KIinghardt Community, the Biotoxin Community is kind of found to be most efficient. It’s from a nutraceutical perspective. It’s TakesumiSupreme .

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Which is this uhm- you know, from bamboo tree.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bamboo shoots. Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And so it’s pretty much like activated charcoal. Uhm- but there’s also another uh- process and I’ll try to find the link whereby uhm- while you’re trying to detoxify the mycotoxins, you neutralize them so they’re less reactive in the body. And someone figured out that uh- specific type of Hawaiian Noni Juice.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:Ahh-

Dr. Tim Jackson: -like that. Uh, I have no connection to the company but you know, I’ve heard great things about it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How about just juicing the herbs? I know what uh- I know you’re referring to Dr.

Dr. Tim Jackson: serves no way to know your friend it to Dr. Michael Leibowitz. He has a talk, Takesumi Supreme. He also has the Noni Supreme. Do you prefer the Noni as well to have those same effects?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- I have not used Noni a lot, to be quite honest. And so, you know- Again, my go to is uhm- the Takesumi Supreme uhm- or Modified Citrus Pectin, uh- you know, Pectasol, uhm-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Tim Jackson: But you can also use, like you said, the bentonite clay. I just don’t have a tox of experience using it. And I just kinda you know, lots of times- It’s hard to research in all these different areas. So you kind have to stick to some of your-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. Tim Jackson: -routine. Uhm-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How about Zeolite?

Dr. Tim Jackson: So that’s pretty much what I do.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How about Zeolite, Doc?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, Zeolite. Sorry about that. Well a lot – as you know, a lot of uh- different companies sold Zeolite that- It’s contaminated –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: – with aluminum. Uhm- and I extense up my cells.Uhm- I won’t name the company but uhm- five of their models went out, they took it. There is a product that- and I’m not gonna mention it coz I haven’t fully- I don’t feel fully comfortable mentioning it, but it is a certain type of Zeolite that very public figure recommends to get into the cell. But it’s also sold by another company in another name and it- supposedly has testing to show that is not contaminated with uhm- aluminum. Uhm- and it’s supposed to be small enough this- the biophysical structure is supposed to be small enough that it can cross over into the cell.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Awesome, Doc. You drop some serious knowledge bombs here. Well, to save everything else for a part two. I love it. But last question here for you. If you’re stuck on a desert island, what’s the one supplement you- you bring with yourself?

Dr. Tim Jackson: Curcumin

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Curcumin

Dr. Tim Jackson: Hands down.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Curcumin. Love it. Hands down. Kinda help modulate that nuclear factor kappa beta, right?

Dr. Tim Jackson: That’s right. There you go. You got it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it, Doctor Tim. Well, anyone listening here, Doctor Tim is available worldwide for Skype and phone consults. His Facebook is He’s got a great blog post there. He’s also been on lots of other podcast like myself, bulletproof radio, etc. etc. So he’s a knowledge wealth. Dr. Tim, thank you so much for coming on the show. We appreciate the knowledge bombs. Anything else you want to leave our listeners with here today?

Dr. Tim Jackson: I would say that uh- the general concept is just because you can’t see something, doesn’t mean it’s not having a tremendous impact and effect on your health. And that applies to two things I deal with daily. One, EMF.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhh.

Dr. Tim Jackson: You know- uhm, electro magnetic pollution.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And the other one is mycotoxins. So two things that we can’t really see, but are having a tremendous impact on us. I know we don’t have time to get into this, but EMF have been shown to activate something called the cell danger response.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oohh.

Dr. Tim Jackson: And basically hijacks all the workings and uhm- metabolism of the cell. And so uhm- an interesting fact for Dietrich Klinghardt points out is that people that are in high EMF environments or non-native EMF environments who have mold. They get sicker because those vibrations and frequencies send signals to the mold to produce more mycotoxin and and more potent mycotoxin.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I think it’s’ stronger. Yup.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally make sense. We gotta be inflammation detectives.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Absolutely. You gotta understand what you see and understand what’s happening of the cell and how to fix the cell, you fix everything else coz you gotta remember all your different organ systems are made of cell.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well it’s really great to have you Biochem background here in the show, Doctor Tim. Thank you so much and you have an awesome day. We’ll talk real soon.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Awesome. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thank you.

Dr. Tim Jackson: Alright. Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.



The entire contents of this website are based upon the opinions of Dr. Justin Marchegiani unless otherwise noted. Individual articles are based upon the opinions of the respective author, who retains copyright as marked. The information on this website is not intended to replace a one-on-one relationship with a qualified health care professional and is not intended as medical advice. It is intended as a sharing of knowledge and information from the research and experience of Dr. Justin and his community. Dr. Justin encourages you to make your own health care decisions based upon your research and in partnership with a qualified healthcare professional. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Dr. Marchegiani’s products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. If you are pregnant, nursing, taking medication, or have a medical condition, consult your physician before using any products.