Keto Tips and Common Misconceptions

By Dr. Justin Marchegiani

What if I told you that eating bacon, avocados, and butter could not only improve your health–it could also help you lose weight? By now you have probably heard of the keto diet, but what exactly is the keto diet and how does it improve your health? Let’s dive in!

What’s the Keto Diet?

The Keto Diet is a high fat and low carb way of eating which prompts your body to enter a state called ketosis. Ketosis is when your body burns primarily fat, rather than glucose, for energy.

The standard American diet is very heavy in carbohydrate-heavy foods. When you’re eating a high-carb diet your body mainly runs off of glucose (sugar) as fuel. However, if you cut the carbs and start eating more saturated fat, there’s no more glucose so your body starts burning fat (including stored body fat) for fuel instead! The weight loss effects of entering the metabolic state of ketosis is a huge reason why the keto diet is so popular for weight loss, but it also a great way of eating to lower inflammation, improve your insulin response and prevent/heal diabetes, and is protective against cancer, Alzheimers and other neurodegenerative diseases.

Glucose actually burns dirty, like a diesel fuel. It’s stinky. But ketones burn really clean–you don’t get a lot of reactive oxygen species or free radicals afterwards. Imagine fat is like a big branch and that you throw into the wood chipper, and then out of that wood chipper comes these things called ketones. These ketones can be used by different tissue in the body. In addition, burning ketones avoids the effects of glycation, which is basically all the proteins or tissue in your body gets sugar-coated and that creates basically a magnet for free radicals. Ketones are stable, whereas burning glucose is a constant up and down reaction. 

How to Lose Weight on The Keto Diet

One of the biggest ways we can induce ketosis and burn body fat for fuel is by cutting carbs. Typically 20-30 grams per day is a great starting point for most people.

I recommend following a Paleo template for your keto diet, utilizing non-strachy vegetables for the bulk of your carbs. Around 20-30g per day is the sweet spot for most people. This is attainable if you keep your carbs to your paleo veggies: a cup of broccoli, a cup of spinach, a cup of kale, some asparagus, a salad… Once you factor out the fiber, you’ll probably be around 20-30 net carbs. As you continue with the keto diet you can play around with your carb range, some people feel better on 10-20 grams, others do well hitting around 40-50 grams of carbs per day.

How Do I Know if I’m In Ketosis?

Some people like to measure their ketones, either measuring their breath, urine, or blood. Not all of these methods are always effective–for example, if you’re burning ketones, they may not end up in the urine, giving you a false negative.

I use a ketone meter, either the Abbott Precision Xtra or Precision Xtra, to measure blood sugar in addition to ketones. The Ketonix breath meter is another good way to measure.

A Common Keto Mistake

One of the biggest keto mistakes is eating too much protein, as high as 30-40% protein. It’s hard to eat that much protein unless you do two things wrong. Number one, you eat lots of lean meat, and number two, you use excessive protein powders.

However, you can get away with going higher on protein if you’re doing a lot of resistance training. However, most of us are not elite athletes, so ideally your macros will be about 60-70% fat as a pretty good starting point.

Keto Misconceptions

Let’s clear something up. When people hear about ketones, they’ve likely been in the grocery store and they’ve seen the “raspberry ketones” as a weight loss supplement. This became very popular over the last few years. First off, raspberry ketones aren’t even derived from raspberries. Most of the time these products are filled with synthetic chemicals, artificial colors and artificial sweeteners. I do not recommend them, the ingredients will most likely do more harm than good.

For a good ketone product, try Keto OS or Keto Sport which use beta-hydroxybutyrate salts,  which are the gold standard in keto products. 

You can use ketone precursors like medium chain triglycerides C8 and C10. These MCT oils provide both the brain effects and metabolic effects of ketones. In the morning I do butter coffee with a high quality MCT oil. I’ll get my ketones up within an hour or 2 to—to .5, .6 mmol and I feel great.

Some people think the keto diet may be dangerous and destroy muscle. Sure, you can be in ketosis when you’re starving yourself. This doesn’t happen on the keto diet because we’re doing it nutritionally, meaning we’re actually eating foods. They’re real whole foods and we’re getting enough calories so you’re body’s not going to be eating away lean tissue.

Can I Cheat on the Keto Diet?

Cheating on the keto diet implies you’re eating enough carbs to bring you out of ketosis. Some people like to cycle in an out of ketosis in daily or weekly cycles. If you save all of your carbs for the evening and have some sweet potato or dark chocolate, the carbs can actually help you sleep! Some people can develop hypothyroid symptoms if they stay in ketosis long term. These people, primarily women, may benefit from cyclical ketosis like 5 days on, 3 days off.

Exogenous ketones can be great from a performance and neurological standpoint. They can be phenomenal if you are on the ketogenic diet–we call it therapeutic ketone therapy. However, if you’re still eating high carb and high sugar, don’t waste your time and money on expensive ketone supplements.

Who Should Try the Ketogenic Diet?

I recommend the keto diet for most people, especially those dealing with metabolic syndrome, which is when there’s a level of insulin resistance and you’re body is having a difficult time tapping into fat for fuel.

The Keto Diet is also great for cancer patients, Alzheimer’s patients, anyone with metabolic syndrome,  women with a waist size 35 or larger, men with a waist size 40 or larger, blood pressure over 140, and anyone with inflammation or chronic pain.

Eating A Plant-Based Keto Diet

By Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Eating a ketogenic diet has reached mainstream popularity, often referred to as a diet full of meat and cheese. If you are interested in the fat-burning health effects of the keto diet, but turned off by the consumption of animal products, you may be curious if it’s possible to be both plant-based (vegan vegetarian, pescatarian) and stay in ketosis. Good news for all you meat-free folk: ketosis is most definitely achievable while sticking to plant-based foods!

Refresher: What’s the Keto Diet?

In a traditional Keto Diet, you eat high fat and low carb, and your body enters a state called ketosis. Ketosis is when your body begins burning primarily fat, rather than glucose, for energy.

The Standard American Diet is composed largely of carbohydrate-heavy foods. With a high-carb diet, your body runs off of glucose (sugar) as fuel. When you lower your carbohydrate intake and reach the metabolic state of ketosis, there is not much glucose available, so your body begins to use fat for fuel–including stored body fat. This is one reason why the keto diet is so popular for weight loss.

In addition to the weight loss benefits, the keto diet has shown amazing results for lowering inflammation, regulating insulin response, and protecting against cancer and neurological disease. It’s no wonder this diet has taken over the health world!

How to do the Keto Diet and Eat Plant-Based

Mainstream chatter about the keto diet leaves our plant-based friends in the dust; many vegans and vegetarians don’t realize that they too can partake in the keto-hype!

No matter your diet, it’s important to choose high-quality food sources. If you are eating a conventional keto diet, a fast food hamburger patty with cheese technically meets the “keto requirement” of high fat/low carb, but it is not going to provide much nutritional value (and if anything, will have negative effects on your health). Similar scenario with a plant-based diet: Eating chips and soy veggie dogs is within the bounds of a vegan diet, but is not going to do you many favors in the health department.

Applying this to a plant-based keto diet–let’s look at how we can reach ketosis with high quality sources of fat and protein.

Questions about plant-based keto? Click here to talk to the doctor!

Plant-Based Foods for Ketosis

For plant-based ketosis, here are some of the foods that should make up a large part of your diet!

Plant-based keto foods (vegan-friendly):

  • Avocados: Avocados, and avocado oil, are a great source of healthy fats as well as a whole host of micronutrients.
  • Coconut: Coconuts, coconut oil, and coconut yogurt are great sources of healthy fat. Add coconut oil to your coffee for a satiating keto coffee to help extend your morning fast. 
  • Olives: Olives are a delicious snack and make a great addition to many meals! Load your salad up with olives and drizzle with olive oil.
  • Nuts and seeds: These are an excellent keto-friendly snack, and can also be added to many meals for an extra dose of fat and protein!
  • If you are vegetarian (no meat, but other animal products are okay): Pastured eggs, goat cheese, goat yogurt, grass-fed butter and ghee are great sources of healthy keto-friendly fat and protein.
  • If you are pescatarian (eat fish), wild-caught fish is an excellent source of healthy fats and protein.

Keto Foods to Avoid

Let’s have a look at a few common “bad” plant-based foods and why we want to avoid them.

  • Highly processed seed oils: canola “rapeseed”, vegetable, and soybean oil are all highly inflammatory oils prone to oxidation.
  • Soy: Soy is high in antinutrients, which inhibit nutrient absorption. This means that any meal containing soy is going to automatically have lower nutritional value. Soy is also high in lectins, which are linked to leaky gut, inflammation and autoimmune reactions. 
  • Seitan: Seitan is a soy-free meat replacement, however, it is made from wheat gluten which is inflammatory and can lead to leaky gut and other health issues over time.

Good sources of protein on a plant-based diet, keto or not, include nuts, seeds, spirulina, natto, and tempeh.


Plant-based ketogenesis is totally possible! Just like any other diet, be sure to choose your foods with care: organic nuts and product, high quality fats and oils, and if you are vegetarian or pescatarian, pastured eggs, grass-fed dairy, and wild-caught fish. Choosing organic whole foods provides you with the most nutrition, while avoiding pesticides and inflammatory compounds.

Curious if the keto diet is right for you? Click here to work with a functional medicine doctor!


Conventional Medicine to Functional Natural Medicine | Podcast #232

Conventional medicine is a system in which medical professionals treat symptoms in diseases using medicines, or surgery. Functional medicine, on the other hand, is a treatment that focuses on optimizing the functions of the body organs, which involves holistic or alternative medicine.

Today’s podcast guest is Dr. Russell Jaffe. Dr. Jaffe is highly respected in the functional medicine industry. As a physician and scientist who aspired to be comprehensive, objective, empiric and experiential, Dr. Jaffe started his career searching for deeper understanding, wisdom, evidence, and insight in mechanisms of health.

Conventional Medicine to Functional Natural Medicine | Podcast #232

Dr. Russell Jaffe

In this episode, we cover:

00:51  Medical Research to Functional Integrated Nutritional World

10:32  Intermittent Fasting

15:02 Keto Diet

34:15  Importance of Vitamin C

58:56 Importance of Vitamin D


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey there it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Welcome back to the beyond wellness radio podcast. Today we have a phenomenal guest, we have Dr. Russell Jaffe in the house. Dr. Russell is a Ph.D. MD nine years all at Boston University. One graduation lots of good knowledge there and Dr. Jaffe was really on the conventional medical side. I really want to dive in we’re gonna get his story and how he converted moreover to the functional natural integrative kind of model. Dr. Jaffe runs the perk supplement company, he also runs the company called Elisa Act which does premier testing for food allergens. Dr. Jaffe welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Thanks for having me

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. Well, let’s just dive in. I want to hear your story and how you went into this mainstream medical research kind of world environment over to the functional kind of integrated more nutritional world. How did that happen?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well I was trained in need in academic medicine at Boston University then I matriculated to the National Institutes of Health where I was early on the appointed to the senior staff which is a bit of an indication that my science was acceptable and of course I was skeptical about anything that I didn’t learn in academic medicine in internal medicine in clinical pathology and Laboratory Medicine. In fact, when I heard that Queen Wu, an acupuncturist in Washington DC, could get results that NIH could not get. I went with great skepticism and ended up doing a seven-year apprenticeship with him

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Then I then I heard about yoga and I heard about Dr. Ramamurti Mishra an MD Ph.D. cross-trained in Banaras, wrote the textbook of yoga psychology commentary and Patanjali sutras. I went as a skeptic and I was his acolyte for five years, then I met a Cambodian Buddhist monk named Anti Dharma Aawara and I had the last 30 years of his life from 80 to 110 mostly together

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow that’s amazing

Dr. Russell Jaffe: So, I came as a skeptic but when I… but I was also curious and because I was curious, I went outside my silo I went outside my immediate peer group. Because I can tell you that when I started to bring information about traditional oriental medicine and acupuncture to the National Institutes of Health where it’s practiced today. I can tell you it was met with great indifference and crashing silence. Because these were very smart people who knew that they knew more than anybody else because they were at the NIH and I was you know with them. But I was also outside, curious, finding mentors who had answers, wisdom, traditions that I knew nothing about. You know I mean I knew from nothing. So, I had the time with Queen and with Ramamurti Mishra, Dr. Mishra and with his Cambodian Buddhist monk Anti Dharma, and yes, my world has absolutely turned around if you will. Why? Because I now advocate nature nurture and wholeness, I advocate physiology before pharmacology. I advocate eating what you can digest assimilate and eliminate without immune burden. I can tell you if you get restorative sleep and you keep your neural hormones and balance then gratitude will rise up at least in the springtime when you see the earth renewing itself. So yes, I do think that a functional, integrative, personalized, primary, proactive, predictive, personalized prevention practices is the medicine of the future, and my work is to speed the transition from sick care to health care. Because most people get sick care today, they really don’t get health care. In your clinic they get health care in my world I would like everyone to get health promotion health care preventive, proactive care. But that is a dream today, that is an aspiration. It is also a necessity because the cost of sick care is going to sink the businesses of America. We’re not going to well, let me summarize very quickly who. Uwe Reinhardt, a very famous Princeton health economist. He says, if you just look at the rise of chronic disease today and projected forward a generation or so, everyone’s gonna be in a hospital bed taking care of the person next to them. No one’s gonna be working or paying taxes that’s clearly not a vibrant productive society.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct 100%. Now I’m just curious having it’s such a, you know strong conventional background MD, Ph.D. and having to had such an open mind to pull in other modalities and other forms of natural medicine and you know you’re looking at obviously the outcome you’re looking at the effectiveness. What it’s your colleagues think cuz I mean obviously conventional medicine, the allopathic pharmaceutical surgical approach, it tends to rely on not addressing the root cause and it tends to not have a preventative nature to it. So, when you are looking at these natural forms of medicine obviously prevention kind of comes in we’re gonna be talking about predictive tests that can help us look at and assess and maybe prevent some of these things but what did your colleagues think did you feel like they were threatened? And then what was the atmosphere around with just the drug industry? You know cuz that kind of motion one direction.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well I can. I’m gonna answer your question but before I answer it, Merck Sharp & Dohme gave me their annual award one time. I got the meritorious Public Health Service Award one year; my work was featured in the New York Times at one time. So, I was not unknown or unrecognized, I got to teach every year because NIH has its own University on topics that I was interested in that I was interested in introduced.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: But to answer your question especially about people who have advanced degrees they either come out of what’s called the Decartian Reductionist Mechanistic way of thinking, in which case I will not talk to them because they won’t understand what I’m saying and it probably will be uninteresting or irritating to them. Then there are the people who come out of the Garrettian Rudolf Steiner.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Before that, there was a theorist as Hoenn half before that you can go all the way back to Mymanatis and Hippocrates. But I will mention that Hippocrates practiced on the island of Kos because the conventional doctors and Athens drove him out of town.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Because ah was for radical to their beliefs and now, he’s a father of Western medicine

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Unbelievable so they, you did get some accredited you did get some accolades but not enough to incorporate a lot of these things in mainstream medicine. So, there’s still kind of a block.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well that’s above my paygrade.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: My responsibility at the time was to do my job.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right

Dr. Russell Jaffe: To publish to communicate to inspire to inform to motivate and I’m glad to tell you that many of the people who are skeptical of my enthusiasm at the time have gone on to research in these areas and now they too have come around and an example, a very important example, but it’s just a personal face on this conversation Dr. Tony Lamas, Gervasio Lamas, he is the chairman of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital in Miami and he is on the Faculty of Mount Sinai Medical School in New York and he led the tact trial funded by the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute NIH NHLBI he is the superb cardiologist, very conventionally trained, who now has documented the benefits of chelation therapy especially for people with diabetes. And we’re both on the rostrum today, we’re both on the program teaching other doctors. What we find to be the information that inspires us that keeps us younger and I will mention that he and I just got off the elevator just before our interview and he noticed that I had lost 65 pounds and I mentioned

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: I wasn’t going to find them again and I noticed that he had lost some weight. And so we commiserated with each other because it’s not easy to get to your lean weight but you feel so much better your restorative sleep is so much better your digestion so much better your moods are so much better. That from my point of view it’s absolutely worth doing in fact it’s an investment in my future and others have heard this I don’t know if you have, Dr. Justin, but I’m planning to be dancing at 120 and I want you and I want you to be with me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wonderful. That’s wonderful that’s excellent. Well, also you got your CCN as well so you obviously have it your conventional medical training. When did you go and start learning more about nutrition, in general?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: I actually, I actually helped found the IWCN, I was the program director for the first eight years of the certified clinical nutritionist program, I believe that I have CCN number one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow so before we dive into some of these predictive markers and I also want to you know get a sense of your background too because you also started a supplement and lab company which I think is very unique as well, but before we go into that, what would you say, give me a breakdown what’s your typical day like breakfast lunch and dinner, how do you spend your day doing a lot of research what’s that day like?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well thanks for asking. Here’s my day, I’m kind of a farmer which means I go to bed early, I get up early. I get up usually before dawn and I happen to have a wonderful mattress that I love and I stretch before I fall asleep, I stretch when I get up before I get out of bed, then I kind of check myself then I have a morning shower while the coffee is brewing and I do get organic shade-grown tea buried coffee from a wonderful guy who roasts the beans the day he sends it to you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wonderful

Dr. Russell Jaffe: And while the coffee is brewing, I take my shower and I stretch again in the shower and I go through a mental checklist to see if there’s any part of my body that really needs help today. Then the next thing I do aside from putting on some clothes usually, is I make sure I’m well hydrated and I am now following a fellow who believes that it is better, in the long run, to take almost all of your calories in just six hours.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mmm so intermittent fasting?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Yes, you can call this intermittent fasting. I like to think of it as intermittent digestion or…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: What is it whatever is the good side of fifth to me fasting is, I don’t want to fast.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: I have resistance of the word not in the process but I tell you that my mornings at this point now I know breakfast is the most important meal of the day but please don’t knock me out about this. That’s what I actually do and I’m going to be honest with you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: My mornings I stay hydrated I sip on coffee, I don’t put anything into my coffee there are no extra sweeteners in my home. You’re sweet enough as you are you don’t need to add sugar.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it

Dr. Russell Jaffe: And by the middle of the day I’m beginning to feel hungry, and where am I in the middle of the day? I’m at my R&D center in Vienna Virginia which is also my home. So four days a week I get to think write meditate and then I go out in our permaculture biodynamic food forest garden, where my job is to sit and watch the pollinators pollinate and the birds eat the birds, seed. And then my other job is to pick whatever is right for dinner because we like to eat from our land. We have a biodynamic Community Supported Agriculture CSA that we belong to and once a week we get very fresh food. And yes we go to Whole Foods but we only buy things that are whole. In my home, there are very few packages. We don’t need them. There are devices that make it easy to cook things work very well very quickly, yes we have steel cut oats not rolled oats and yes we put them in water or some broth overnight so they pre swell.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: I’m trying to think what else for me I often in the evening before bed I have about a half an hour where I get in a warm tub of water that has a cup of Epsom salts and a cup of baking soda that helps detoxify and relax. When I’m in the bath five minutes I do deep abdominal breathing just slow rhythmic breathing if you want to know what abdominal breathing is like watching a baby they all know how to breathe in there happen watch most adults, they under ventilate, they hypo ventilate they have so many traumas growing up that they’re daring to move that’s right they breathe from their chest which is not where the action is it’s these little tiny air sacs called alveoli, I really am a doctor at the that you have to expand your lung so I five minutes of abdominal breathing than 15 minutes of active meditation. My friend Robert Leichtman wrote a book called Active Meditation: The Western Tradition and published around 1976, still in addition highly recommend it and anything that Bob Leichtman has ever written because most of us have days that are structured I have earned and I worked hard to get this didn’t happen overnight but I worked hard to get to the point where I had a team with people that could take care of the day-to-day and in fact it’s better for me to not even interact with that because I’m constantly fixing things that aren’t broken.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: But if they if they can’t solve a problem well then it’s mine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That makes sense.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Four days a week yeah four days I’m a week I’m at the R&D center in the woods I get eight to ten thousand steps a day in and how do I doing that well I have a hands-free telephone and when I’m talking which I offer them, when I’m talking I’m walking.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That makes sense I have a setup here where I’m on a treadmill at my desk and when I’m sitting I have a like basically it’s called the QB and it’s put by spending on us and you can bike. So I do the same thing

Dr. Russell Jaffe: That’s wonderful.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And just can just curious about protein consumption in fat consumption.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: oh well it’s, first of all, understand that the clear and the recent studies completely support what I’m going to say. The Greek Mediterranean diet is the healthiest diet the next healthiest diet is the Japanese diet. In both cases you take in lots of fresh things in joyful ways with lots of herbs and you have 60% complex carbs, 20%, of calories from fat and 20% of calories from protein now why do I say that, because if you want insulin resistance then go on a low carb high protein high-fat diet. If you want to increase your risk of atrial fibrillation and magnesium deficiency and all the consequences thereof go on a low carb high protein high-fat diet. It’s in vogue it’s called keto I even hear that South Beach is now a modified friendly keto. I don’t know what a friendly keto is. I know it keto, I know a ketoacidosis is it’s called starvation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: You will lose weight if you if you do what Bob Atkins and others recommended for many years which is eat a lot of fat a lot of protein and zero as close to zero carbs as you have… weight but you but your bones will melt.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So what’s your there’s a lot of data coming out from over at Duke University, Eric Westman, a bunch of other Doc’s on the ketogenic kind of template you know they’re modifying it anywhere between 20 or to 50 grams of net carbs typically around thirty thirty net which typically gets you like eight servings of green vegetables a day. What’s your take on that? Because there’s lots of data with less mass…

Dr. Russell Jaffe: The folks that the folks at Duke are doing good folks at Duke are doing good work there is an integrative medicine group at Duke at they’re part of. However, you can call that what you want you can call it a rose or a petunia it remains what it is it’s not ketogenic. Ketogenic means you deprive yourself of carbohydrates and you force your mitochondria cells, the battery of the cell to use fats and amino acids for energy. So what they’re saying is if you’re truly ketogenic you’re in starvation and what I said before applies now what they’re saying is we want to have a best of both, we want you to have the option of more fat and more protein. So we’re gonna cut the carbs half of what I said. So I said 60% not and I’m remember I said no added sugar so that 60% from fiber nuts and seeds and things you have to chew those are the thing and fruits and vegetables which turn out to be associated with long life and good health and depriving yourself of fresh fruits and vegetables I don’t think anyone today who really knows about the true functional nutrition literature as a fellow of the American College of Nutrition as someone who was on the National Nutrition Consortium appointed by Mildred Seelig at ACN today. I can tell you for sure that the Greek Mediterranean diet is associated with the healthiest long life and the best energetic mood stability symptom reduction from diet alone. Now it’s not it’s more than diet, of course, it’s what you eat and drink it’s what you think and but in regard to eating and drinking with respect to the folks that do they’re trying to take a very overlooked problem identify it and find a solution by splitting the difference. As someone who is in academic medicine, I can tell you I’m splitting the differences often what’s done but it rarely turns out to be very helpful.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: When you say splitting the difference do you mean just instead of consuming zero carbohydrate kind of like a carnivore diet they’re doing essentially you know six to eight servings of green vegetables keeping the net below 30. Is that will you mean by splitting the difference?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Yes I’m saying that the healthiest diet is 60% complex carbohydrates, 60% lots of fiber, 20% from protein, 20% from fat in which they’re very nicely…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Would you customize the carbs if you have a patient that’s coming in with a let’s just say elevation in fasting insulin let’s say greater than 10 or at 15 or a functional or a glucose tolerance that stays up high 2, 3 hours after a meal. Would you make exceptions to cut the carbs lower if you’re dealing with those patients?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: If you want to reduce hemoglobin A1c if you want to improve glucose-insulin ratio, if you want to improve Homa which we studied in our diabetes outcome study which we talked about if you want. But if you want to optimize any of those parameters as you should. You must keep the fat less than 20% of calories, and you must have at least forty to a hundred grams of unprocessed fiber in your diet daily. That means 60% from complex carbs, 20% from fat, 20% from protein. Now if you include seeds and nuts if you include seeds and nuts you get healthy oils but remember that as soon as you remove the oil from the seed or them but, the protective factors are gone and now you have something that air is the enemy now and so there are no edible oils in my house. We cook with broth, we cook with wine, we cook with juice, we cook with foods that are wet. We like wet foods we started all of our meals with something wet and warm. That Americans but it’s a makeover that adds years to life in life to years.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now you talked about 20 wouldn’t… go ahead.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: No I was just trying to kind of guild that point which is I had insulin resistance when I weighed 65 pounds more than I did now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: I can tell you the last the last two hemoglobin tests on myself for 4.5% and the best outcome goal value is less than 5% and even a little bit about five and you begin losing years on the far end but losing quality of life today. It’s a bad proposition.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: We need it turns out we need a lot of fiber we also need a lot of probiotic good bugs and then we need a lot of nutrients that come from things like fruits and vegetables. Especially healthy fruits and vegetable.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: To me today the minimum is organic I prefer biodynamic and actually, I would prefer to grow it myself if I quit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s amazing. Now you talked about having the fact go higher that causes insulin resistance. What’re the mechanisms? We know fat doesn’t really have much of an insulin genic response I mean you have some with protein more with carbs. So what’s the mechanism of fat getting higher and causing more insulin and just to be clear right, we want to draw a line between you know process kind of more rancid omega-6 or more trans-fat right and then we kind of have our healthier saturated fats in the category coconut oil maybe gear butter and then, of course, we have our unsaturated avocado, olive oil, those kinds of things.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Let me jump in on that and just just to make a very important point. EVO, extra-virgin olive oil is a fraud waiting to be revealed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay let’s hear it yeah why.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Yeah well why because my family I went to Tuscany at the time when you harvest olives and you bring them and overnight they grind very slowly on this grinding wheel you know this is a stone wheel and one comes out is dark green and viscous and delicious and they eat it there and they love it there and you can buy it commercially. What you buy and this is actually what happened we stayed there all night in the morning there was this mountain of spent olive mash outside the building, and this big truck from Bartoli comes by and I say what’s happening and they say, Oh hahaha Portola is going to take our spent olive mash and the first time they process it they’re gonna call it EVO.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: So it’s a fraud waiting to happen. Ghee, on the other hand, can be liquid sunshine Beatrice from hunter wrote about that many years ago but remember the ghee comes from the cow and if that was a healthy cow that’s fine. But most ghee is contaminated with the products at the cow ate including glyphosate, including lead and mercury and… I okay and and now if you want to make a fondue and you want to use some organic grapeseed oil a few drops, I will not tear it out of your hand in fact there is i feel to show you I’m not totally consistent there is a small bottle of grapeseed oil and we made fondue with it. If you tell me you have organic peanut oil and you want to do a stir-fry, I’m killing a few drops of organic peanut oil in a wok or a cast iron pan, it’s fine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s okay.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: But most of the oil should come from Whole Foods seeds and nuts. The complex carbs are what regulate a slow uptake from the gut of sugar and the minerals that are necessary to process the sugar so that you actually enhance insulin functionality by having a lot of fiber in the diet. Now let’s flip to the other side let’s slip to the other side. Assuming that you will agree with me that you’re sweet enough as you are and therefore you don’t need any added sugar.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I totally hear that.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Now most now most of the studies that the people have cited included sugar and complex carbs as carbs. Sorry, that’s not fair look at the diet studies that use Whole Foods as their source of carbs. They got the best insulin resistance below 20% of fat from calorie… fat as source of calories, less than 20% of calories from that. Now, why is that? It turns out the more fat you take the more rigid are the membranes of your cells and it’s a little complicated biochemistry but trust me I’m not making this up. When the cell membrane itself this is the wrapper around the cell this is a very important packaging but very dynamic of thing membrane when that membrane becomes more rigid the fit between insulin and the insulin receptor becomes less efficient, and you develop insulin resistance but since your…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Doesn’t that membrane get more rigid more with trans-fats though then or like vs higher quality omega 3s or higher quality saturated there’s no difference in that? mm-hmm.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well let’s go back to the trans-fat comment. Kumar Kumaroh and Marianne showed in the late 70s early 80s, trans fats should not be part of the human diet, trans-fats should be out of your diet it’s not hard today because even the companies that used to advocate for them agree the trans fats bad bad bad yes trans fats do make rigid membranes but they’re bad and suggestible. Now stearic acid saturated fats are more rigid unsaturated fats are more flexible and fluid. You want to have more EPA DHA as omega-3, but you want it from a source that was distilled under nitrogen to remove the toxic metals and to avoid air oxidation damage of the delicate EPA DHA then you need enough magnesium in your body because magnesium acts as an antioxidant to protect the EPS, the unsaturated fats when they’re in trend.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting, now when you talk about some of these fish oils how much does it matter if it’s a triglyceride or an ethyl ester what’s your opinion on that?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: In my opinion on that is that there are two points of view, one advocated by company a and the other advocated by company b. There are virtues to both what is critical from my point of view is that the distillation of the oil whether it be a triglyceride an ethyl ester or not, that the distillation be under nitrogen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Nitrogen is important is that preventive grantee oxygenation doesn’t happen essentially.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: To prevent what will be irreversible oxidative damage to the delicate essential fats that you are interested in it yes so you must have still under nitrogen and then you want to take the traction that has the most EPA DHA of course, and now you want to micellize that in a soft jell because that will protect it until you swallow it and the micellized little droplets get into the body easier because it’s not easy to take up either the triglyceride or the ethyl ester you need some bile you need a gall bladder that works and as I started to say what’s really important is the quality of the EPA DHA because you can make a case on both sides, which means we really don’t know the answer yet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And of course like you know you run a supplement company so we, you’re going out and you’re trying to find a person that to buy raw material offered there are obviously different tiers right you can go and buy cheaper stuff like you would maybe the equivalent of a burger at your local McDonald’s or you can choose the high quality grass-fed organic beef at your local farmer correct, so you’ve different options on your keys…

Dr. Russell Jaffe: The reason that Park Integrative Health the reason that Park was founded in 1987 was because I wanted to use pharmaceutical quality and above raw materials all the time. And I was told by people who knew better that our cost of goods was going to be so high than I would have a hobby and not a business. So I did something that some people do which is I took the marketing budget and I put it into the cost of goods I put it into the quality of the bottom the quality of our service and we’ve grown quite a nice business, thank you, over service without having more than a few dollars for marketing. Because you’ll never see a sports celebrity endorsing a Park product but if you take a Park product, you’ll feel the difference because if you use the higher quality raw materials and you put them together so that it’s only active ingredients all the time which is something we pioneered. Now you have a safer, more effective form that when you study it as we have in community-based outcome studies delivers feel the difference results and as you know we have an unconditional guarantee because we trust people to feel the difference that Park approach that is use the highest quality and monitor it very carefully, because people will promise the moon and deliver modified dog poop.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Make sense. And then with your a fish oil what’s your opinion do you like the triglyceride, or the ethyl does it matter and then what’s the difference is to kind of put it in in layman’s terms.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well right see the difference is that eventually these delicate fats are going to get into a membrane as part of a triglyceride, and a triglyceride is three carbons, that’s the backbone and coming off of each of those carbons is a long chain called a fatty acid. Now the two position there’s one two three the middle position the tube position of the triglyceride is the source for your cytokines thromboxanes and prostaglandins it’s really important so if you put a racemic acid in there or you put it on mega six fatty acids in there you’ve got a completely different response than if you put in EPA or a DHA in there. So in that sense, you would think the triglycerides are better. But it turns out that the body is going to deconstruct and reconstruct a triglyceride so that’s not so critical and the ethyl ester, not the methyl ester ever the ethyl ester is easily taken up it has better bioavailability so if you say to me this is a person with a perfectly healthy gallbladder, across the coin both of them are okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: If your bile from your gallbladder is limited, well then you should have the ethyl ester.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then when you’re producing the product what’s the how are you preventing the oxidation from happening outside. I’m just keeping the temperature down. Are you putting like a rosemary antioxidant, how are you keeping it stable?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well when I said, first of all, there’s a pharmaceutical-grade fish oil company.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You’re choosing a good quality right?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: No I’m choosing way above a good quality, the best food-grade right right right so there is food grade which you can think of as floor sweet. Then there is quality grade we can think of as better than floor sweet things. Once you get up to American Chemical Society to reagent grade to pharmaceutical grade and above, now you’re at a different level. You’re dealing with different companies you do different they provide different kinds of documentation you do we do third-party pros production testing on all our products because even though we trust our suppliers verified by President Reagan used to say Rastenburg.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly yeah that makes sense.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: So what happens is the fish oil is distilled under nitrogen the middle fraction the concentrate EPA DHA is basically put into a sealed container, it then goes to the place where it’s going to be micellized into the soft gel where it is immediately and without any exposure to oxygen, put into tiny droplets that are easily taken up from your gut. And by the way, you don’t get the burping and the comeback that most officials have you can bite into this fish oil soft gel and you’ll find it very delicate because it’s not rancid.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting and then if you consume, so if you were to consume rancid omega-3s you essentially have more lipid peroxidation correct.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: You would have more lipid peroxidation and it would be a member of studies there have been several studies recently that said, oh we thought fish oils were good but they’re not really good. And if you look at them carefully these were people taking fish shows made in oxygen fish oils that were rancid and should, in my opinion, should not be consumed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: is that just robbing from your antioxidant reserves it’s sucking up more vitamin C what’s it doing in your body?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well it’s doing several levels of harm yes you’re right when you start with something that’s damaged and oxidized than the body has to use antioxidants which is protective but he has to use antioxidants in order to somehow get the oxygen off the molecule that has it. Because when you put oxygen on a molecule like a fat, it’s like putting a hand grenade on the fat. When that oxygen comes off the recoil energy is going to be so high that you’re going to break the membrane of the cell you’re going to damage the cell that’s a bad thing. And now you have a molecule that kind of fits in where an omega-3 or omega-6 should you know triglyceride in a membrane, but it doesn’t have the right shape. It’s got this big extra oxygen on. So peroxides are bad epoxides are bad anything that robs your antioxidants are bad and most people need help with their antioxidants so anything you can do to preserve to enhance the function of your antioxidants like ascorbate. Is to your benefit and anything you do that depletes your antioxidants it’s the opposite.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent and what does that do to your cell membrane? Is it making the cell membrane more inflexible?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: It’s not only making it more inflexible when the oxygen comes off the recoil energy is so high you actually break the membrane and very often the cell is killed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow I really appreciate your biochem background it really helps and I know you’re also famous for doing a vitamin C calibration. Can you talk about the vitamin C calibration and who can benefit from that?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Right so let’s talk about the C calibration also known as the C cleanse and the reason that we focus on a ascorbate, known as vitamin C it’s really an antioxidant does not think of it as a vitamin A vitamin is something you need a little love to activate enzyme catalyst. Albertsons Georgy pointed out that ascorbate is as important to survival as light and oxygen. When you’re that important you’re kind of really important and the end the next question has to be, well how much, how much should I take. Now Linus Pauling famously said 9 grams then he said 18 grams and I got to ask him why he said 18 grams and he said because doctors are so dumb they could only remember a number and if I say it long enough then they’ll remember and I said but doctor timing shouldn’t it be individualized he said of course but doctors aren’t smart enough for that. I think people consumers are and I think that people aren’t a functional integrative and holistic medicine are and so the C calibration the C cleanse means that every 15 minutes you take a certain amount like a gram and a half, three grams, six grams, every 15 minutes and notice I said grams, not milligrams. But of course, you use fully buffered fully reduced l-ascorbic nature’s form is l-ascorbic you want to fully reduced not the partially reduced fully reduced and by the way our source of ascorbic is fermented. It’s done by natural fermentation but under a nitrogen blanket so that during the production of the ascorbate, which is triply recrystallized under nitrogen which is it’s a challenge but it now gives you nature’s form in a concentrated way. And then we have a balance of minerals potassium, calcium, magnesium, and zinc you need all of them in a proportion so if you need one gram 10 grams or a hundred grams you still get the minerals that help the ascorbate come in and help it work.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And so what’s the goal how high do you go up to and then do you ramp down how does the whole process work and why should people be looking for symptom was.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well what they’re gonna do is once a week they’re gonna check their C calibration they’re gonna do it by taking the ascorbate every 15 minutes until they cleanse, until they have an enema from within, until they have a flush something so unique that until you’ve had it you don’t understand it but once you’ve had it once you know what I’m talking about. So you rapidly get toxic matter and fluid pumped into the rectum and evacuated from the tosh that’s why I meant by an enema from within. They do that once a week we do that once a week now in between you take 50 to 75 percent, so let’s say it took 10 grams to cleanse, you take between five and seven and a half grams. I recommend that people start at 50 percent and move up to 75 percent over time. You do the cleanse every week because the amount you need will likely go up over some period of time as you overcome the repair deficit that your body has accumulated for years or decades, and when you finally get to Plateau which means for four consecutive weeks your cleanse is the same amount. Now you know the amount you need on a daily basis, you’re taking three quarters of the amount to do that cleanse and you keep doing that until you get bulky or lose your stool indicating that repair has finally completed and now you do ramp down see now you check it once a week as you need less and less. And the goal is to need less than four grams, and when we checked about 4,200 people that reported their C cleanse. The people who are asymptomatic and healthy cleanse on four grams or less. They’re people who had just a few symptoms cleansed on four to ten grams the average person cleansed on ten to a hundred grams and there are people who need well over a hundred grams which is a hundred thousand milligrams to cleanse but it is safe and for it is safer for people to do this because the amount of oxidative damage, the amount of oxidative toxic material, the amount of nutrient-deficient oxidative processed foods that people are taking in the stress of high tech living has dramatically increased the amount of ascorbate that people need, ascorbate is the mother or maternal antioxidant that sacrifices herself so that all the other antioxidants can be regenerated and protected. so ascorbate is the critical one to test and the c cleanse is the way to find out how much you as individual mean.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So essentially just to kind of recap at your doing about one teaspoon of the L ascorbate reduced powder which is about 3 grams 3,000 milligrams every 15 minutes or you’re taking more of it and you’re trying to get to a place of bowel tolerance where you’re essentially you’ve saturated your bowels or saturated your vitamin C stores and now the stools start to get loose and that number may be higher in the beginning and as your vitamin C levels get more repleted, or topped off so to speak, then that threshold to move the bowels as you said drops. Is that correct?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well no let me clarify my friend Bob Cathcart introduced bowel tolerance. It has a fatal flaw. The fatal flaw of bowel tolerance is you creep up on the amount you need as opposed to the cleanse where you rapidly ramp up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you’re doing degree increments though right teaspoon 3 gram 50 minutes.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: No let me say again what I said before. If you’re really healthy if you’re really healthy you use 1/2 a teaspoon which is a gram and a half.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Gram and a half got it

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Right if you’re a typical person you do use a teaspoon which is 3 grams but many people there are many people who need 2 teaspoons which is 6 grams and they need it for hours and if you do 6 grams for 4 times in an hour that’s 24 grams if you do that for two hours that’s 48 grams. Most people will cleanse in that time the idea is to rapidly saturate the body with the ascorbic so that the ascorbate can energize the rectum which is really from the kidney embryologically and pump toxic matter and extra water in to the rectum and that would come whooshing out flushing out cleansing up.  So yes it’s the same idea, but it’s the next generation after bowel tolerance it’s the C cleanse or the C calibration. And it really depends on how well you are. If you’re really well you don’t need that much but if you’re a typical American, even 3 grams and I just had a someone contact me about this they took 3 grams every 15 minutes for 5 hours.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s a significant amount.

40:45 Yes sir, but if they had done six grams they would have flushed and calibrated but after five hours what they proved was they had a lot of oxidative burdens and they need a lot of ascorbic. So you really do, I really recommend that folks read the literature that we have, this is free to download online, you can look up C cleanse, you can look up joy of living the alkaline way or alcohol a guide, and we want folks to help them we want to help people understand themselves so they can do it smoothly, efficiently, and generally within a couple of hours. So I personally do my cleanses on the weekend and I can cleanse within a couple of hours. But often we hear from colleagues that people try say a teaspoon and that means three grams every 15 minutes, that means 12 grams an hour, but they need 70 grams to cleanse and it’s gonna take them more time than they’re willing to take and. I don’t think it should be your whole day you shouldn’t be sneak on waiting for a cleanse the whole day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So if that’s the case, could you go up in tablespoon increments if you wanted to go faster?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well understand that you want something close to an isotonic iso-osmotic beverage so when you go to 6 grams or 2 teaspoons, you’re now talking about at least eight ounces.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I see.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: And if you go and if you go above that you might go to 12 or 16 ounces, most people don’t want to drink that much.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I see.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: I have no I have no objection to that. I’m just saying that I don’t make it too concentrated and don’t make it too dilute, you don’t want hypotonic, you don’t want hypertonic. You want as close to isotonic as you can get and that’s why what we recommend is as the upper dose is the two teaspoons in 8 ounces. Could be water could be your herbal beverage could be a juice that you diluted one to one with water. And by the way, some people find if they take the recycled glutamine or they take a dose of magnesium and choline citrate or they take a dose of the digestive guard before the cleanse. That things go more smoothly and more easily.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent and I’m just trying to wrap my head around what the difference between this cleanse and just typical bowel tolerance by vitamin C. Is it because it’s in the L ascorbate reduced form with the minerals, does that make it different? What’s happening is different.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well Bob has gotten himself recommended sodium L ascorbate and he did that because he knew that ascorbic acid would pull the dentin the calcium out of the teeth you know so you don’t know use ascorbic acid. He didn’t want to use a synthetic form and I agree with him on that, but what he said is you just keep taking it until you feel until you until your poop. That’s called bowel tones. Here’s here’s the fatal flaw with bowel tolerance and I spoke with Bob about this and he agreed with it was a very honest guy. When you do bowel tolerance, you have a very high probability that if you have a long transit time long digestive transit time as many Americans do, that you will recirculate toxic matter throughout your body and feel worse in contrast with the C cleanse you quickly ramp up, saturate the ascorbate throughout every cell of your body, and then pump the toxic matter and the extra fluid into the rectum, and it comes out quickly, and you don’t get the recirculation of toxic matter. People don’t want to feel worse on the way to feeling better.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well you motivated me. I’m gonna go pick some up and do my own vitamin C calibration very soon. Excellent. So let’s transition the conversation you talked about there eight predictive markers for your health to kind of give a window kind of your check engine light so to speak to see how you’re functioning in an optimal perspective. So let’s just kind of break down those eight markers briefly and let’s do a quick little blurb on each of them, so what’s number one?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well yes. Now with regard to predictive biomarkers, we reviewed hundred-thousand lab tests because we wanted to know what covers epigenetics and epigenetics is everything that’s not genetics. Epigenetics is everything you can influence with your lifestyle. It turns out to be really important, it’s 92 percent of your life Steinhaus epigenetics influences your genes, your genes are not a fixed blueprint they’re rather dynamically acted upon and modified by your habits of daily living, and your habits of daily living are summarized epigenetics and there are eight of these tests and I’d like to go through them and I’d like to point out what’s unique about our interpretation. And some of these are familiar, hemoglobin a1c. And the best outcome goal value is less than 5%. Now today if you ask most diabetologist, most doctors who specialize in diabetes don’t tell you that they don’t want to know the fasting glucose they don’t want to know the fasting insulin, the 2-hour postprandial. They want to know the hemoglobin a1c. It’s the average sugar stuck on to your hemoglobin protein over three or four months. So it’s a very good average risk predictor, it’s an oil cause morbidity mortality predictor, it predicts whether you want to live ten or more years pretty accurately, and the goal that is less than 5%. Now the second test is high sensitivity c-reactive protein, HSCRP, and you do need the high sensitivity version. Pointed out that while c-reactive protein is a good measure of acute inflammation, the more common chronic repair deficit which is what inflammation really is it’s really repaired deficit, that can be measured with a high sensitivity c-reactive protein known as HSCRP and that should be less than 0.5.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Is that the same as the cardiac CRP? I think it’s the same, right?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Yes yes sir yes sir. Originally Read Crew who is a cardiologist thought that the high sensitivity test was cardio specific, and it’s sometimes referred to as the cardiac CRP

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That helps.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: And yes, yes no I’m glad you brought that up. It is it’s not cardiac-specific, but it is sometimes called cardiac CRP and it is the high sensitivity or the HS CRP that we want and the best outcome goal value is less important

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I see a lot of patients that want the HS CRP but their lab whether it’s a quest or LabCorp only has the cardiac and from what I’ve seen like you just said it’s the same thing.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Oh same thing same thing yeah. So the next test the third test in the sequence is known as homocysteine. This is a plasma test and you must process especially within 30 minutes or the lab shouldn’t even run it, but a plasma homocysteine predicts atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease, almost better than any other single marker and when you combine the predictive biomarkers the way we do you’ve covered all of your cardiovascular risks and you notice what’s in here and what’s not in here we can talk about what’s not in here at the end. So the next test is your immune tolerance task. Oh sorry, the homocysteine should be less than 6 the homocysteine should be less than six. And that, yes homocysteine should be less than 6 again don’t pay any attention to the lab range healthy people have a homocysteine less than 6, they have a high methionine, a low homocysteine they are protected from cardiovascular disease and they can methylate which is a very important function for moving things around in your body. So homocysteine value less than 6 on the plasma properly done specially

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And if that level is on the higher side what nutrients should we add in to help bring that down? Assuming a diet and lifestyles good.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Yes well you’d be surprised actually how much B complex including folate, how much magnesium and choline citrate, how much betaine hydrochloride known as trimethylglycine people need in order to keep a healthy homocysteine, and you can look at all these cycles if you want because I’m a biochemist and I do it in my sleep. But the bottom line is you need at least a super B complex, you need folate probably milligrams a day, you need trimethylglycine at least 250 milligrams a day, you need enough ascorbate to protect and two other antioxidants, and with that and with enough magnesium and choline citrate to activate your ATP, you too can have a low homocysteine a nice high methionine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting and they just the back story for everyone listening they can look at it here is Kilmer McCully who was a Harvard researcher that discovered the homeless cysteine atherosclerosis link. Was basically laughed out of Harvard me 10 20 years ago in this discovery, but now it’s becoming mainstream and its even part of your predictive markers for overall health.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Kilmer published in 1967 when I was a young scientist in Boston, I knew him then. He went to the VA and distinguished research career but you’re right he got left by other parties. He was right and he was right, and they were in it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep interesting.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Now the fourth test is the immune tolerance test known as LRA, lymphocyte response assay. Lymphocytes are specialized white cells, and they respond to things that are foreign and harmful, but they don’t respond to neutralizing and helpful things. So you want an LRA the LRA by ELISA/ACT is what we recommend and the goal is to have no intolerance is to be completely tolerant in your immune system, and healthy people with a healthy digestion and a healthy intake of the nutrients they need. The few of them that we found too are asymptomatic tend to have no reactions out of hundreds and hundreds of substances that we can now accurately measure on one ounce of blood, as long as it gets to us within a couple of days.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now with that test, how is that different than your typical food allergy IgG your IgA. Is it companies out there like Everly Wells a big one you see on Facebook all the time which I think is looking more IgG IgA? How is that different from that typical you know food allergy that’s more antibody based?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: The antibody tests were developed in the 1950s, they were outmoded in the 1980s, they’re still offered by most labs because they’re easy to do and impossible to interpret. So when you get an IgG antibody result, you have to ask yourself. Is this a beneficial neutralizing helpful antibody or is this a complement fixing harmful antibody? You can’t tell.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So essentially with the ELISA/ACT, you’re looking at the lymphocytes and you’re able to see if there’s a t-cell kind of mediated response to these foods specifically? Is that how you look more specifically?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Yes. The innovation that we brought to immunology was the first amplified procedure done on the surface of a white so-called a lymphocyte. And the novelty is that we can do reproducible tests that is less than 3% variance. So we do a functional cell culture more precisely than a physical chemistry lab measures an antibody, and the point you made that you jump to is correct. More important than b-cell antibodies and more important than distinguishing helpful from harmful b-cell antibodies are the t-cell responses which you can only get cell culture, only get from a cell culture.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So the IgG and IgA, that’s more B cell-mediated and…

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Hundred percent. Not more these cells make antibodies

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Antibodies, correct.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: B cells make antibodies through specialized antibody factories called plasma cells. When you do physical chemistry, say hi GG or any antibody measurement, and I don’t care if you used a cooked antigen, I don’t care if you use a freeze-dried antigen, I don’t care if you used an aerosolized antigen, I’m telling you if you’re measuring antibodies you’re doing old-fashioned physical chemistry and you can’t interpret whether it’s good or bad and since you don’t know the function and you need to know the function I say don’t do tests that are intrinsically incapable of giving you the information you need. And then the point you made is well made which is T cells are more important than the antibodies, and you get nothing about the T cells when all you’re doing is old-fashioned physical chemistry. So we outmoded this in the 1980s we have over eighty thousand cases in our database, we’ve done over twenty-five million cell cultures, we published more outcome peer-reviewed studies that show the benefit of this approach when it was applied just by people living their lives. But as you said a lifestyle program, a program to add life to years and years to life, and we’re more excited today than ever because the data continues to come in that we have an advanced approach. It’s part of this predictive biomarkers suite of advanced interpretations and I’m glad to tell you that we at the Health Studies Collegium have been able to pioneer much of this validate it to the satisfaction of our most difficult critics and now make it available to colleagues and consumers.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good. Now your test for this is the Elisa act biotechnology test now I’m just curious though. Is the liza the same thing as the enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay test? Or is that just kind of a play on words there.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: No no it’s very specifically Elisa act, which is the coming together what you said Elisa, with a CT Advance cell culture technique

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay so it’s combining it. Okay.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: So it’s the first time, first time that an amplified procedure was done, not with a sandwich assay like a conventional Elisa introduced by Bursa Aiello in 1953, back then this is using a lymphocyte enzyme that when the cell is resting, when it doesn’t see anything that it reacts against, the enzymes turned off. Because this is the same enzyme that turns the cell on when it needs to go through mitosis and reproduce itself. We were fortunate enough to figure out the specific kinase at the MHC locus for those of you who are super technical. The antigen presenting cell in this autologous ex vivo cell culture wiggles over to thelymphocyte presents the processed antigen at the MHC locus turns on the kinase we see the results of that. This is the bringing together for the first time I’ll be Liza, just as you said and cell culture.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting so you’re able to get the antibody response from that, the IgG IgA IgM, you’re able to get the immune complexes, and then you’re also able to look at that the t-cell activation there too, all three

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Exactly right C lymphocytes are smart enough that they will only react to harmful antibodies. So we get the meaningful harmful antibodies and we ignore the helpful neutralizing antibodies and then yes, we get the immune complexes which is IgM anti-ag G antigen and most importantly we get the T cell reactions.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent, very good. What’s the next marker?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Yes, the next marker, the fifth one is measuring the pH or the acid alkaline state of your urine after rest. It turns out after six or more hours that the urine and the bladder equilibrate with the bladder lining cells and now you get once a day a measurement of cellular metabolic status. And if you lack magnesium, you have metabolic acidosis if you have enough magnesium you have a healthy happy cell. Why is that so important? Well magnesium is not just an electrolyte that balances calcium you need one molecule of magnesium for every ATP molecule to do any work in your cell. You need magnesium to activate your mitochondria so you can get the toxins detoxified. You need magnesium to activate hundreds maybe thousands of enzyme catalyst. You need magnesium to protect essential fat’s in transit, magnesium is nature’s calcium channel blocker. The problem has been that until very recently magnesium has been notoriously hard to get in, it tends to run out as soon as it comes in, and therefore it’s been forgotten. Now what we did was find out how to make inverted micellar nanodroplets, so you combine ionized magnesium salts with choline citrate and now you get enhanced update and chaperone delivery to the cells we’re hungry for it. So now we should remember magnesium.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wonderful, excellent. What’s the next marker.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well the goal value from pH is 6.5 to 7.5 if you’re below that you’re too acid and you need more magnesium if you’re consistently above 7.5 it might be catabolic illness and that’s something you don’t want but we could talk about later.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we want like we want the urine though the saliva it doesn’t quite matter

Dr. Russell Jaffe: No no urine urine and the reason we want the urine is because that’s what we standardized, but more importantly if you put a Kirby Cup, if you put a little plastic discover your parotid gland in your mouth and you collect pure parotid saliva you two can measure the pH of that. But having had that done to me when Frank Oppenheimer was a postdoc and meet at some subjects, very true people will do that. What we call saliva or spit it’s a combination of gingival fluid zero sanguinis exudate some saliva sub submandibular some parotid, it turns out that saliva is not what you think it is. At least not in most Americans mouths and and talk to the dentist. There are very few Americans that have a healthy mouth.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then with the urine, are we testing first morning urination, or they can be another example?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: No no no there’s only one time of day. You can only get a meaningful measure after six hours of rest. So when after six hours at rest the next urine… yes, and you by the way during those six hours you can go to the bathroom and go back to bed. You just can’t go to the gym or the kitchen

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it, because you’re gonna create acid byproducts on your muscle activation.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: And other than after those six hours of rest, there are somewhere between 20 and 40 variables that influence urine ph at any random time

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That totally makes sense.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Right the next measurement, the next measurement is vitamin D, specifically what’s called 25 hydroxy D but if you just ask for a vitamin D that’s what they’re gonna do. Now there are three forms of vitamin D and there are some experts who say measure all three of them. I do not advocate that, partly for cost and partly for practicality. So if you think there is something wrong with the way their kidneys are processing vitamin D or their liver is processing vitamin D then you might want to do all three different what are called isomers. In general you want the 25 hydroxy d and the goal value is 50 to 80. Now there was recently an article in New York Times, and a very distinguished science writer says, almost everyone in America is low in vitamin D it’s normal to be low in vitamin D so don’t even measure vitamin D and don’t supplement. Now did you understand what I just said it do you understand how silly that is?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely yes okay absolutely.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Let me clarify for everybody, because I know you know this, but when vitamin D is below 20, well of course your bones are gonna fall apart, but more importantly you just tripled or quadrupled your cancer risk.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: And you probably tripled your cardiovascular risk. Because vitamin D we call it a vitamin, it’s actually a neurohormone. It actually regulates cell division; it does a whole lot of things and we know in my opinion the best outcome goal value 50 to 80 the vitamin D council I believe says 40 to 70 but that’s close to 50 to 80. And the ranges that we have said were the values that we have said give you a certain latitude. So if you take a little bit too much vitamin D, and you get up to 90 or 100 I have no concerns. So when I say 50 to 80 I don’t mean that 81 is a problem, I’m saying the safer range that we know to be effective and protect you from the profound chronic illnesses 50 to 80. And how much vitamin D do you take? How much vitamin D do you take? Well as much as you need to get into the 50 to 80 range.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah as much as you need.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: And I take and I prefer for people to take drops under the tongue, so they can absorb, well that’s a turkey word be careful of that but drops under the tongue before you swallow them are easily taken up and many many people over forty million according to my colic. Over forty-million Americans don’t absorb vitamin D from their gut. They’ve got to take it up they’ve got to take it up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting

Dr. Russell Jaffe: From their mouth

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah Hollen he’s also he’s also a researcher over ABU as well right at your alma mater?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: that’s where I met Mike Hollen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay he’s been there for a long time right. 34 years.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: About that he’s developed the fundamental methods in vitamin D research he’s known as dr. sunshine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah absolutely now I’m seeing some people online they’re pushing back a little bit cuz we have vitamin d3 the pre-vitamin D we make on the ski. Somebody hits it that cholesterol I think goes through our liver and gets forming the 25 hydroxyvitamin D, which is calcidiol and then calcidiol hits the kidneys and gets converted to calcitriol. So more people I’m seeing are saying hey we had a measure calcitriol or that the vitamin D that’s activated to the kidneys and they say there should be like one to one ratio on the d3 the 25 hydroxy versus the 125 which is the calcitriol. What’s your opinion on that having that one-to-one or the 125 is?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Having spoken to 12 different world’s experts and their opinions matter and mine doesn’t cause vitamins not my particular expertise. I can tell you they each have a different opinion. With respect to what your folks, were saying if you have the resources and you want to have the maximum useful information. Then at least you would measure the 25 hydroxy and the 125 hydroxy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: But you might want to measure the precursor as well. If you’re going to do that, but I will offer to most people for home the value proposition including how much is this going to cost…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Leads me to conclude for most people to start with 25 hydroxy D. No disrespect on the question but just start with 25 hydroxy D bring people into the 50 to 80 nanogram per ml range. Then if you have any question or if you want to just be a more scientific and evidence-based practitioner, when you get them into range then measure and see if you have a one-to-one ratio.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And what if there’s not was it would there be something you would do specifically. I know some data says you should give resveratrol to help with that some today it can be an infection kind of thing. What’s your take on why that may be skewed we’re 25 is higher and 125 is lower?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well you raise several very good points. My friend happens to own resveratrol globally and I can tell you they’re going out of the resveratrol business because resveratrol tall has very low bioavailability. It is a polyphenolic it is in red wine, especially granule red wine. However, because it is very low bioavailability, which means very low solubility. When you give it in the doses that people have tried to give it, you end up irritating the gut and irritating the immune system. So we have for a long time at least the last 25 years advocated the safer more effective polyphenolics and activate your innate immune system and do many wonderful things for you. And that’s quercetin dihydrate as the flavonoid, and soluble OPC ortho proanthocyanidins for the chemists as the flavonol, because you need flavonoids and flavonols. These are the colorful compounds in foods but almost all of them in high doses are mutagenic which means oncogenic which means promote cancer because they have such low uptake and they can be irritating, and if you irritate the immune system enough, it will become very upset.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Make sense

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Flavonol but safer the soluble OPC we have them together in different forms because they help prepare they reduce pain they enhance many functions of the innate immune system and when your innate immune system is functioning, you are in a repair mode where you don’t have to call in the extra troops. What’s called the adaptive immune response which are the lymphocytes and the other delayed immune reactive cells. So, which one is to provide a lot of energy to the innate immune system so it can defend and repair you, so they can recycle foreign invaders down to their building blocks and make them available for the body to build itself up? And then more importantly, after you do defense you have to do repair. Well, most Americans are in defense mode almost all the time. You can think of it this way, during the day we do more defense work when we’re getting restorative sleep, we do more repair work. Ah notice I snuck in restorative sleep. Now if you need restorative sleep, then you might need that salt and soda bath the dichromatic light which we didn’t talk about but that goes along with it the abdominal breathing, the active meditation the magnesium and choline citrate, maybe tryptophane with some zinc and b6 so that your body can make the serotonin and the melatonin. I never give serotonin. I never give melatonin because the body never floods itself with those neurochemicals and neural hormones. I give the tryptophane in a way that it goes exactly in the brain where it’s needed, where the brain turns it into serotonin or melatonin as needed. And by the way, it has a very short life in the body because it’s too potent to leave around. So, we follow physiology before a pharmacology, but that also means we study physiology and frankly most of my colleagues today, they know about pathology and I am a double board-certified pathologist, but they don’t remember physiology and biochemistry flummoxes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I agree healthy egg yeah biochemistry and physiology and when you apply it that becomes Clinical Nutrition and functional medicine essentially, right?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Absolutely, absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: So now the next, right. The next test is an omega-3 index, want to know where you are omega-3 to omega-6 this is Bill Harris’s test. Can be done on a blood spot, and the goal value was more than 8%, and the quick anecdote is that Bill Harris was in the offices of Professor Patti Deutsch at the Military Medical School, she and I are friends I came by because I was going to confer with her and bill was lamenting the fact that it’s so hard to find adults with healthy omega-3 levels. Patti points to me he pulls out a Lancet he calls me up a few days later he says your omega-3 is 13.2% something like that I said well is that better than eight he said well we think it is if you know that above eight is good we know that above eight is good but let’s say that you were just a consumer or just a listener to this show. You might assume that 13 is better than eight. But I’m a scientist so I had to ask Bill is it really better than eight and he’s an honest enough scientist to say we think it is we pray it is we hope it is come back and five or ten years we’ll have more day. So that’s the omega-3 index. And then we only have one more and that is a urine test, this is the measure of oxidative damage and risk in your DNA it’s called 8-oxoguanine that is 8-O-X-O-G-U-A-N-I-N-E, 8-oxoguanine, and because it’s a urine spot test, we actually have a value per milligram of creatinine. So, your best outcome value is less than 30 milligrams per milligram of creatinine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Is a test in organic acid by Genova it’s called 8 hydroxy – deoxyguanosine, it sounds very similar to that I know that’s an oxidative stress marker?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Yes, yes. I think that we’re talking about the same molecule I can tell that this molecule has several different names, they’re all the same you want the DNA, the nuclear DNA oxidative stress marker that’s the one you are.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s it that’s correct good.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Now we help people interpret tests that other labs do. So we folks want to know about these best outcome goal values and how to attain them, then you would talk to our health coaches and our nutritionist. If you want to have them perform they can be performed through our lab or through your lab although the LRA is distinctive to us, and the omega-3 index is distinctive to Bill Harris.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good. And then what’s the range you want to be in for the omega-3 again?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Yes, for the omega-3 index you want more than 8% to be omega-3

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And with yours, you were up to 13 you were saying right?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: 13 plus.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay so what we’re going to do…

Dr. Russell Jaffe: At the moment there’s only one person who has a higher value if I remember correctly from what Bill said, and it was actually a youngster, was a teenager but this mom took very much pride in telling us how much omega-3 she got her kids to eat.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And if they’re a high threshold for that just because of the lipid peroxidation would you say eight grams, four, six, what’s your high-end recommendation you know we’re assuming farmers pharmaceutical-grade super high quality, so it’s not oxidized.

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Well if the question is how much EPA and DHA do I take and I would never take an oxidized product and I would never recommend anyone do that. But I currently take 8 to 10 grams a day, and that may seem high but I can tell you that given my particular background, that’s what seems to be needed to keep all the other parameters in the range that I would like them to be. So I’m personalizing my intake.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Plus you’re also probably calibrating the L ascorbate which is you know stabilized membranes too, right?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Oh of course and I take the polyphenolics and I take the super B complex that has a full mineral complex, and I occasionally take some extras in because I’m a man. So yes and I take prebiotics probiotics and symbiotic. So yes I actually sent someone a photograph of the 12 supplements that I take a day and I take two to four doses a day of those supplements. Now I’m like everyone else when it comes to opening-closing bottles, I understand that it’s a commitment I have made because it helps me feel and function so much better. By most physical and functional measurements, I’m half my age and if I can keep that up if I can keep that up for another 30 40 years it’ll be a good run.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent Dr. Russell Jaffe, it’s been an amazing podcast. Lots of knowledge bombs lots of great information. Were there any other biomarkers that all the eight?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: No no we got through all eight of them yeah that was pretty quick but thank you for being such a good host and for making sure that I stayed on top

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. I’m gonna put in the show notes here, we’re gonna put the links to the ELISA ACT biotechnology food allergy lymphocyte test. Will put the vitamin c el ascorbate, the potency guard powder links, and everything so if anyone wants information, we’ll put it down below. Is there anything else you want to leave the listeners with here today dr. Jaffe?

Dr. Russell Jaffe: Oh gosh yes, I would like folks to know that in the 21st century we have to save our own lives. You cannot rely on science from the 19th or 20th century. I’m not even sure today you can rely on an expert. As Jackie Mason, the comedian says, in the phone book or wherever you look up your doctor its lists every condition and whether they were present or absence the day your problem occurred. And I’m just trying to be a little bit humorous about it, I think consumers should be very active today learning about themselves through self-assessments, through tests that can be interpreted to best outcome individual levels, as we’ve just been talking. Now, this is a new paradigm, this gives information inspiration and if you put some effort perspiration in, you can recover decades of quality life, and you can feel and function better tomorrow. It’s the best value that I have found in all my years in science and by the, way this is not only how I follow through I do walk my talk. But this is how my parents live near the end of their life and the way my children live today. So put us to the test and find out how well you can feel.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well thank you so much I think you did a phenomenal job taking the hard science, biochem science, and applying it and making it practical so people can apply it so, thank you so much I look forward to having you back soon to dive in deeper and you have a phenomenal day that dr. Jaffe, you take care

Dr. Russell Jaffe: You the same, thanks so much.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thanks so much, bye now.



Audio Podcast:


The Top 5 Keto Myths with Dr. Jockers | Podcast #184  

Keto Edge Summit Sign up:

Ketogenic Diet, also known as Keto Diet, is a popular diet among those who want to lose weight, but is it just about that? Listen to Dr. J and Dr. David Jockers as they talk about the top five myths about Ketogenic diet. Also, find out the physical and neurological benefits you can get from this known diet.

Stay tuned for more facts!


Dr. David Jockers

In this episode, we cover:

01:40   It’s a Weight Loss Diet

06:17   An All Meat Diet Only

16:17   A Diet Bad for Microbiome

24:22   Not Good for Thyroid and Adrenal Health

29:37   A Diet Suited Long-Term

63:00   Treatment Issues for the Immune System




Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey, there! It’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. I have an amazing guest on today’s show, Dr. David Jockers. David’s a phenomenal clinician, functional medicine doc, Chiro and good friend. David, welcome to the show, man. Really excited to have you on. I know you have your Keto Edge Summit going live really soon, and I want to make sure everyone knows about that. If you’re listening to this now, we’re gonna put a link below on screen. We’ll put like a little card as well link, where you can click in and you can get over and subscribe to that summit, where you can get access to ton of great speakers. I was able to speak on that summit, too, and drop some good information. So, David, welcome to the show! How are you doing?

Dr. David Jockers: Awesome, Dr. J. Great to be on with you. Always honored to be on your show. It’s one of the— one of my top subscriptions on iTunes. I listen to you guys, you and Evan, all the time. So, great to uh— Great to make a little cameo on here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thanks, doc. I appreciate it. And again, the— the Ketogenic Diet is one of the fastest trending types of diet. And, the reason why I like the Ketogenic diet, i— it— one of the big things, it shifts your metabolic machinery around, from being a sugar-burner to being a fat-burner. I love that because fat is like clean fuel. Sugar kind of burns like dirty diesel fuel. Fat…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …burns clean, and has many metabolic neurological advantages. I know we talked pre-show we wanted to go over the top five benefits, or the top five myths of a Ketogenic Diet, and we wanted to spell them one by one. And I just want to let any listener know here, this is just the tip of the iceberg on my little iceberg picture back here.

Dr. David Jockers: [laughs]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: This is the tip of the Ketogenic iceberg. So, anyone listening, if you resonate at all with this info, click down below and make sure you subscribe to Dr. Jockers’ Summit. Great info here. David, what’s your number one Ketogenic Diet myth?

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. You know, I’ve been uh— teaching and writing about Ketogenic Diet for a long time and applying it myself. And these are the common myths that I come across. When people hear about Keto, and number one is really that it’s a weight loss diet. This is typically, how most people get started with the Ketogenic diet. It’s that they— they hear about it. They— Maybe, they saw a testimonial, or something along those lines. I hear about it being a great weight loss diet and it certainly is. In fact, I think it’s the best diet out there for— you know— for weight loss if you’re gonna—  if that’s your goal. However, Dr. J, I have never tried to lose weight my entire life. I’ve always been underweight. And so, uh— you know— For me, I— I apply Ketogenic lifestyle and uhm— you know— not trying to lose weight. I’m actually just trying to maintain muscle mass. And the cool thing about it is, when your body— when you have Ketones elevating your bloodstream, it actually preserves your blood Leucine levels. And, Leucine has this anabolic effect where it helps your body preserve lean body tissues. So, we’re setting this message to the genome, saying, “Hey. Preserve lean body tissue and just burn fat for fuel. And even though I’m really, really thin. I’m typically like seven or eight percent body fat, uhm— I still have enough body fat to last me— I mean, I could go weeks without food, and I would still have enough body fat to actually preserve and— and uh— to produce Ketones and utilize energy. And so uhm— you know— It’s really not just for weight loss. Although it definitely is tool that can be used for weight loss. Really a great tool for enhanced brain function, performance, memory, reducing inflammation throughout the body. I mean, there’s so many different things, so many different benefits that we can get from a Ketogenic lifestyle and spending time, right? Having this metabolic flexibility where we spend time— not maybe all the time but spending time uh— throughout our life in Ketosis.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. Love it. So, the Ketogenic diet is not just a lifestyle, or I should say, not just a weight loss diet; lots of other neurological benefits. Awesome. Now, just kind of like looking at the weight loss, like weight loss can be a big one because INsulin resistance is a major cause of weight gain…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …so a lot of people that are over secreting Insulin, that gets at the excess carbohydrate— you know— taps out the muscle, taps out the liver, and then it goes into the fat. So, you have it on one side where it can help improve fat, but it’s not just a fat loss weight loss diet. You n—

Dr. David Jockers: That’s right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …the benefits. So, [clears throat] what’s the..

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …first cognitive benefit, the thing that people aren’t aware off uh— with the Ketogenic diet?

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. So, wit— with our brain— Basically, our brain could run off of somewhere between 50 to, some people say, up to two-thirds of— of energy production can be through Ketones. So, most people, and I know, and Dr. J, you and I learned when we were going through school that the brain depended upon glucose. But now, we realize that actually we can— we can create a lot of neurological energy through Ketones or breaking don Ketones. And so, when we start to transition our metabolism, and become Keto adapted, it significantly downregulates inflammation. So, it shuts down the Neuro Inflammasome, this genetic pathway that amfi— amplifies inflammation throughout the brain. So, when we do that, that reduces our risk, obviously, of neurodegenerative conditions, like Alzheimer’s, Dementia, Parkinson’s. But also, for— for younger people that— you know— that would be developing those diseases over a 30 to 40 or a 50-year period, you know, we’re not necessarily concerned. Like, I’m 36. I’m not thinking Alzheimer’s now, but I’m thinking about, “Hey. I want to get up and I want to be the best father/husband. I want to be the best doctor. I want to think sharply and quickly, uhm— and be able  to perform at my peak.” And that’s really what, when I’m burning Ketones, when Ketones are my primary fuel, that’s how I feel. I feel awesome. I feel like I’m performing at my highest level. My energy levels are amazing. You know, it’s also great for skin. Reduces inflammation uh— throughout the whole body, so— so, reduces pain, reduces inflammation of the skin. But, just in general, you’ll notice just kind of this cle— this very clear feeling in your mind, where you’re able to come up with thoughts and ideas, and you’re able to be more creative, and you’ve got, basically, better cognitive processing speed. So, you’re able to think sharply and quickly. It’s a— It’s a preferred state for your brain to be at.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it, totally. I know Dr. Veatch over at Harvard has found that many people with— with neurological issues— There are certain parts of the brain that become resistant to using Glucose for fuel, but those parts of the brain can tap into Ketones for fuel. So, that’s like uh— a different fuel source…

Dr. David Jockers: Yep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …which is great. And again, your brain only needs about 20 grams of Glucose a day. It’s not a lot. I mean, if you’re eating, you know, some Broccoli and some veggies and that kind of non-starchy veggie. You can get enough just from that.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now, that kind of leads us into the next myth here. Is the Ketogenic diet all meat? And again, I…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …see…

Dr. David Jockers: [clears throat]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …within my plate with how I eat.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’m kind of a Paleo Cyclical Ketogenic person. But I eat a lot of times more vegetables than I see other Vegans eat. So, let’s hit that.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so, there’s a lot of different versions of the Ketogenic diet, and so a lot of people don’t realize this but, you know, there’s a lot of different Keto Influencers out there online, on YouTube and whatnot. And people have different uh— you know, different versions of it. And so, there are people that promote a very, very strong meat-based Ketogenic approach. However, the Ketogenic Diet does not need to be like that. In fact, it’s not really how I recommend it, and in functional medicine, we don’t recommend that. We recommend really a micronutrient-rich Ketogenic Diet and lifestyle, and uh— And, basically, that looks like a lot of vegetables, and so, you’ve got all this non-starchy vegetables, cruciferous vegetables, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Kale, Collard greens. These are all very, very low-carb, high fiber, high micronutrients. You got things like sea vegetables, Avocados, Olives, which are really good healthy full-fat foods that are also rich in micronutrients, rich in prebiotic fibers. And so, you’ve got a ton of vegetables. In fact, you know, when I’m working with Cancer patients, I actually have a whole program that’s built around a plant-based Ketogenic Diet. So, it’s a plant-based Ketogenic approach, where we have very little animal products in there. And so, why? Because, we’re trying to really control Protein intake. So, not to say the animal Protein is bad. I’m— I’m a fan of— I know Dr. J, you’re a fan of it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. David Jockers: We consume meat. I pretty much consume a serving of meat everyday, pretty much, unless I’m fasting. Uhm— However, we just make sure that— you know— really want to focus on micronutrient so that’s not a meat only diet or a meat-based diet. Meat really is gonna be more like 20 to, maybe, 30% uhm— of your daily food intake when you’re on kind of a— a normalized Ketogenic diet. Uh— Obviously, if you’re really, really active, okay. If you’re doing a lot of resistance training, things like that, you might be able to handle a little bit higher levels of Protein, but uhm— typically, roughly around 30%. If you’re more sedentary, you’re looking at more like 15 to maybe up to 20% of your calories coming from Protein. And, you know, most meat is real dense in Proteins so when we do do meat, we— we like higher fat— higher fatty cuts, grass-fed uh— pasture-raised, right? Getting it all raised correctly. So, we have the right fatty acid ratios and  uh— that the animals were raised and— and treated properly. But, the baseline there is, we’re looking at a micronutrient-rich diet, which includes healthy animal products because they are rich in micronutrients. It also includes a lot of vegetables and plant-based foods.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. I think a lot of vegetarians are Vegans. They forget that a lot of the animal meat gets its nutrient density from concentrating plant matter.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, that’s the benefit that you get when you eat animals if they’re pasture-raised and they’re raised properly, you get this concentration, this bioaccumulation of plant nutrition. And then I— I’ve read in places where one pound of grass-fed meat is six to eight pounds of a plant matter.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So that’s one the great benefits that we have. And then also the benefit of eating good quality meats is we don’t have this high Carbohydrate to pres— Protein ratio. If you look at most vegetarian Proteins in nature— right— outside of uh— a Protein powder or outside of like a soy Protein that’s concentrated, it’s about two-thirds to three quarters starch to about one-third to one quarter Protein, and you get a lot of Carbs per Protein. So, like rice and beans, for instance, you get about 80 grams of Carbohydrates for about 20-25 grams of Protein. So, it’s gonna be really tough to be Vegetarian or Vegan and be plant-based at the same time. So, how are you doing? And, I imagine you’re using…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …maybe some— some Pea Protein or some Concentrated Protein Powders and adding Coconut, MCT Oil, Fat, Avocado Oil. What does that look like?

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. So, plant-based Ketogenic Diet, I use that with my Cancer patients because really— so, it— On a normal Ketogenic Diet, you’re looking at somewhere around 0.8 to 1.2 grams of Protein per kilogram of body weight. And, if you’re really active, you’re doing a lot of strength training trying to build lean body tissue might be able to go up to like 1.5 to 1.6 grams per kilogram. Whereas, when somebody has Cancer, uhm— we really want to reduce that. One big reason is because excess Protein is gonna stimulate the MTOR genetic pathway, which…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right

Dr. David Jockers: …emulates cell reproduction. So, we’re looking at like 0.5 grams per kilograms. So, for example, so I’m about 160 pounds, which is roughly 72-73 kilograms. So if I were to take half of that, half the kilograms, in Protein, it’s like 36 grams of Protein a day. And so, if I were to break that into, let’s say, two feeding periods. It’s roughly 15 to 20 grams of Protein per feeding period. Okay. And so, we could do that, obviously, with uhm— obviously with things like seeds, Hemp seeds, stuff like that. We could also do it with Protein powders. Right? And, on the plant-based Ketogenic Diet, I actually do recommend like Collagen Protein.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. David Jockers: So, it’s not a Vegan Diet. We actually recommend Glycine-rich uh— you know— basically, Amino acids, like uh— like a Collagen Protein or Bone Broth Protein, or something along those lines uh— can be really, really healthy. And, I actually don’t ris— I don’t say, “Hey. You can’t eat meat on this plan. It’s more so just watching how much, because in one ounce of chicken, you have something like seven or eight grams of Protein. So, if you’re trying to hold yourself to 20 grams of Protein in a meal. That’s like two and a half ounces. Most people are used to eating four to six, sometimes eight ounces of— of meat in one meal. Okay. And so, it’s very easy to get that Protein up 50-60 grams, which is gonna stimulate that MTOR pathway. And, again, individuals of Cancer— [stutters] We’re not able to test for this yet, but we hypothesized that uh— I mean, I— I just pretty much lump everybody with Cancer, with the fast growing cancer, into this— this model of— Hey— fat— a hyperactive MTOR Genetic pathway. And uhm— And so, we want to reduce that Protein as well as the Carbohydrate and make it up with a lot of healthy fats, Avocados, Olives, Olive Oil, Coconuts. Uhm— We do recommend grass-fed butter on there because of the Conjugated Linoleic Acid, the fat-soluble nutrients, Vitamin A, Vitamin E. Uh— You got Choline in there, all kinds of powerful nutrients for the body. So, it’s not a Vegan approach. It’s a— But it is more plant-based, because we’re not doing high amounts of— of meat in that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great. Excellent. Yeah. Good rule of thumb that I use with my patients is, depending on where you’re at, typically two to three times more fat than Protein. So, I’m—

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’m 210 pounds, right? So, I may consume on the Protein side if I’m lifting weights, maybe, you know, half— half uhm— to three quarters of a gram per pound of body weight. So, that may look like, for me, a hundred and twenty, 120 or so, uhm— grams of Protein, maybe up to 150. And then, I would then double that to triple that for my fat…

Dr. David Jockers: Uhmhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …so, three— 250 to 300…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …grams. And like, I start my day with just pure fat and some…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …Collagen peptides with my coffee. [crosstalk] So, I try to really jumpstart my day.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh— What’s your take on that kind of ratio? Does that kind of match your— your Math a little bit there too?

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that works great because you got to remember you got nine grams of calories per gram of— I’m sorry you got nine grams of calories per— nine calories per gram of fat.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes, that’s correct.

Dr. David Jockers: So, basically, yeah. So, you kno— you want to get roughly 60 to 80 percent of your calories from these fat sources to be in…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. David Jockers: …Ketosis. The mo— Again, the more active you are, the more your bodies gonna be able to handle a little bit higher amount of…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. David Jockers: …Carbohydrate and Protein. So, like, for me, I can handle a little bit more Protein, particularly on training days so I’m roughly in that 80 to 100 gram range, right, on— on training days…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct.

Dr. David Jockers: …but, obvio— I fast one day a week, right? And so, of course, you know, when I’m fasting, that’s my Protein Restriction Day. And I think this is really good rule of thumb, unless somebody’s dealing with, you know, s— yeah, severe health issues, and they— they really struggle with fasting, where you’re actually able to create some variation in your diet. You might have a Feasting Day, where uh— you may over consume a little bit of Protein and Carbs, and that’s— That can be kind of good for— for stimulating the Thyroid, [stutter] obviously we’ll get into that myth.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. David Jockers: And then also doing a little bit of like a Protein Restriction Day, where you d— where you dial it down lower. You’re body’s able to stimulate more autophagy in that case, and uhm— really be able to do more healing and repair. Even though we use Protein for healing and repair, actually, restricting the Protein stimulates more healing and repair when you do it for short periods of time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great. And I— I do notice that in the earlier studies, they know the first Ketogenic Diet, where they started coming up within the 1920’s for epilepsy. Mayo Clinic was behind a lot of this, and they…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …were finding it was really a great first-line therapy for epilepsy having seizures.

Dr. David Jockers: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And— And they dropped the Protein down below, I think, eight percent.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And one are the side effects of going too low was they did— the kids in these studies also had very low IGF-1, which is a growth hormone precursor.

Dr. David Jockers: Yep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: They— They actually had stunted height. So, one of the things that you can do is up that Protein to 15, even up to 25%. They found that they still…

Dr. David Jockers: Yep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …had the same benefits but didn’t have the low IGF-1 and the low height stuff. But, again…

Dr. David Jockers: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …if was— It was a Cancer issue, due reason that IGF-1 can also help decrease that Cancer cell growth, too.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. Exactly I mean, the faster the growth— the faster the Cancer growth, like the Metastatic Cancer, something that’s growing faster, you definitely want Protein Restriction. You want to do more fasting. You want to slow cell reproduction. That’s your whole goal there. Uhm— Whereas, you know, somebody like you or I, and probably most of the listeners on here, can certainly handle higher amounts of Protein…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. David Jockers: …roughly around 20% of their— their calorie intake.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. Very good. Uhm— Myth number three. Is a Ketogenic Diet bad for the microbiome?

Dr. David Jockers: You know, there’s a lot of health influencers out there that say that. They say, you know, if you’re applying this Ketogenic approach, it’s gonna be really bad for the microbiome because we don’t have enough prebiotic fibers in there. But, if you’re doing it correctly, the way that I teach you, the way that you teach, Dr. J, you’re actually getting tons of prebiotic fibers. I mean, in one Avocado…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. David Jockers: …you’ve got as much…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. David Jockers: …fiber aas you have in oatmeal, right? And, people are eating oatmeal for breakfast, which is spiking their blood sugar, driving up Insulin levels…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. David Jockers: …causing inflammation in their body, and they’re thinking, “Well, I’m getting the fiber, right,” which is kind of like— you know— the main reason why people eat oatmeal. Uh—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. David Jockers: …from a nutrition perspective, because this is really not much nutrients in it to begin with. Whereas Avocados got twice— twice as much. It got as much as two cups, or two— two bowls of oatmeal. So, getting Avocados into your diet, you’re gonna get tons of prebiotic fibers. Olives are another really good source. Dark green leafy vegetables, you’ve got things like uh— radishes, you’ve got uhm— Artichoke is really good one. You’ve got all your cruciferous vegetables, Cauliflower, Broccoli— things like that. So, really, really good for the microbiome and there’s actually been studies where uhm— for example, uh— “Frontiers in Microbiology in 2017,” they took a group of individuals with Multiple Sclerosis, and they compared them to healthy adults. And they found that the individuals with Multiple Sclerosis, as we would expect in functional medicine, had a disordered microbiome. They had Dysbiosis. Thay had a whole lot of pathogenic uh— bacteria in their system. And so, when they put them on a Ketogenic Diet and they were checking them, measuring— they’re looking at their Stool Analysis over a period of time. They found that after six months it was completely normalized, right? That they actually had the ten individuals they had with MS, had very similar uh— gut bacteria make up as healthy adults who weren’t expressing an autoimmune disease in…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s right.

Dr. David Jockers: … tat Keto approach, right? And, they— they’ve actually been looking at this with Epilepsy too, ‘cause really, ultimately, we know that Ketogenic Diet’s been well studied in Epileptic kids to reduce this Neuro inflammasome and a pr— to create better balance between the Excitatory Neurotransmitter Glutamate and GABA. And these kids with epilepsy, they end up with Neural Excitation because they have poor conversion of Glutamate to GABA, as one of the reasons. And uh— So, Glutamate will excite the brain cells, right? GABA helps slow them down and balance them. And so, we want good balance there so we’re able to think sharply and quickly. Okay. But also, we’re able to calm our self. We’re not— We don’t have anxiety. We don’t have seizures, right? Things like that. And so, uhm— these individuals with epilepsy, we know that that’s the case, but they hadn’t looked at their gut. And so, just recently, we started doing studies, looking in detail at epileptic kids’ guts. And they found that— you know, they’re really high, and things like Proteobacteria, uh— like Vibrio, and Salmonella, and stuff like that. And following a Ketogenic approach that they’re able to normalize that good bacteria as well, and see significant changes there. So, really cool stuff as far as what happens when you have a Dysbiosis and you start following a Ketogenic approach, it should improve. Right? Should— You should get improvements over time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, a lot of Dysbiotic bacteria is gonna happen from refined sugar consumption.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh— Inflammatory uhm— foods, like— like Gluten and Grains and— and bad trans fats. And of course, antibiotic use, which c— creates that rebound Yeast overgrowth. So, yeah, starting out some of those critters can help as well. And I even find a lot of patients uh— have other infections too, and they may have to have those infections kind of knocked out, whether it’s an…

Dr. David Jockers: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …H. pylori or— or another type of parasite. But, you made some good points. I mean, let’s say you’re keeping your— you know, Carbohydrates down to 30 net grams a day. Well, if you look at— Like, let’s say a serving of Broccoli, once you subtract the fiber. It’s down to three to four grams of Carbohydrates. I mean, you ju— you can do six to eight servings of non-starchy vegetable.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s a lot of fiber going into…

Dr. David Jockers: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …the gut.

Dr. David Jockers: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, you’re gonna get a lot of prebiotic fiber, and, you know, touching base on— on using antimicrobials. I mean, really, ultimately, like in Cancer, one of the growing theories with how t— how, with in a sense, uh— uh— I shouldn’t say the word curing but…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. David Jockers: … helping our body overcome cancer is this Press-Pulse Theory, that uh— Dr. Thomas Seyfried, who I interviewed in the Keto Edge Summit— He has really pioneered this idea, as well as Dr. Dominic D’Agostino, down at University…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm—

Dr. David Jockers: …of South Florida doing a lot of research. And I also interviewed him. He talks a lot about this Press-Pulse Theory of Cancer, where, basically, we’re gonna press it metabolically. Right? So, meaning that we’re gonna restrict the Glucose consumption. We’re gonna restrict the— the main metabolic fuel to Cancer cells. And then, we can pulse it with an oxidative therapy. And that oxidative therapy could be in the conventional model, Chemotherapy Radiation, and more of a— a natural holistic model could be things like Hyperbaric Oxygen, IV Vitamin C, IV Ozone— stuff like that. So, I look at, when I’m thinking about like gut infections, I’m thinking something similar. I’m like, “Hey. If we can press these, you know— These uh— parasites, Candida — things like that— If we can press them metabolically by taking away what their preferred fuel sources are, and then we pulse them with really strong herbs, antimicrobials, Oregano, Garlic, Berberine, right— different compounds like that— Wormwood.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Dr. David Jockers: Right? Now, they’re weakened because they’re pressed. They’re— They’re metabolically stressed, and that we’re able to get in there with food. You know, they’re consuming these uh— these herbs and uh— obviously, they’re not able to really— They’re weak already so, they’re susceptible. So, they’re gonna go down in— in flames.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and a lot of these chemicals, a lot of these uh— infections, they actually create a lot of cravings for a lot of the….

Dr. David Jockers: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …refined sugar. Again, it’s easy to process so…

Dr. David Jockers: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …so, from a compliance standpoint, if we can knock a lot of these microbes down, it’s gonna improve your compliance being on that diet because often all these chemicals won’t be secreted. That’ll created those cravings too, right?

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. [crosstalk] And you’ll notice.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then, also—

Dr. David Jockers: What’s the cool thing about a Keto approach too is, you know, after like the first two weeks, the first week or two, as you’re adapting into it, those— The hunger, the cravings really go down significantly. And, if you are noticing really strong cravings, oftentimes it’s a lot to do with what’s going on in your microbiome. So, yeah. I’m a huge fan of using like binders in those cases, right? Just try to kind of clear and sweep some of that stuff out. So, whether it’s Activated Charcoal, or Bentonite Clay, or like Humic Fulvic acids— things like that— to try to sweep stuff out of there faster. It can really help people that are— are struggling with the cravings.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And if anyone’s listening to this right now and is really enjoying it, make sure you click the link below so you can get access to the Keto Edge Summit. This is gonna be just a sneak preview of all the great knowledge bombs that we dropped. Again, we’ll have the links below. Again,— to get access to this phenomenal summit. And then, Dr. David, what’s your experience with adding maybe a little bit of prebiotic fibers in? Maybe some uh— unripened banana flower, some Inulin or Chicory root, supplementally, is kind of uh— a prebiotic or some Fructooligosaccharides. Any experience there?

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. I think— I think for most people, unless they’ve got SIBO or some sort of a FODMAP issue…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. David Jockers: They’re gonna respond well to small amounts of that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. David Jockers: Uhm— Some people, there’s a— you know— has a bell curve. There’s some people that respond really well to a higher doses of these sort of uhm— resistance starches…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. David Jockers: …whereas other people don’t, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. David Jockers: They get more of those. They start gaining more weight. They feel more sluggish, more gas bloating, right? Issues like that. So, I think it’s a— you know, it’s a case by case basis but…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Dr. David Jockers: I think as long as like— Hey! If you can eat— For example, if you can eat a bowl of Steamed Broccoli and not feel gassy and bloated and be cramping after that, okay, then you probably could do well on resistant starch.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. [crosstalk] And I think it’d be good if you can have some Sauerkraut and maybe some…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …low…

Dr. David Jockers: Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …Kombucha. You can handle that, you probably would do okay with that.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, exactly. That’s kind of a good uh— good task, right—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. David Jockers: …to— to Litmusi— Litmus Test to uh— see if you’re ready for some sort of resistant starch.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think that’s great. On to Myth Number Four.

Dr. David Jockers: Uhmhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Is the Ketogenic Diet bad for Thyroid and Adrenal health? Now, I’ll just chimed…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …in here. I’m coming out with my Thyroid Reset Summit, which will be this Fall, which you’ll be…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …a part of and I want you to speak…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …more in-depth on this, but just to put a couple things out there…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …a lot of people have Insulin Resistance.

Dr. David Jockers: Mm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And, Insulin Resistance is your body over-secreting Insulin to help get that Glucose into the cell. High amounts of Insulin can have major effects on Thyroid Hormone Activation or Conversion, T4 Inactive Thyroid Hormone to T3. Now, that being said, I think a majority of population fits into that, where if that Insulin Resistance is there, a Ketogenic Diet may be really helpful. I’ll— I’m— I’ll kind of give you the baton here.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. Yeah, totally. You know, I would say any sort of major dietary change is a mild stressor on the body, and so, if somebody’s stress-resistant or uhm— you know— ability to adapt to stress is really, really low— okay— then, they need to gently and gradually shift as they start making these nutrition changes. They need to kind of a slower change as opposed to— it’s kind of similar to— you know— if you— you’re sedentary, you haven’t exercised, and then you think, “Okay. I’m gonna go out and run a 5K.” You do that, you’re gonna be really, really sore and beat up. You’re gonna think exercise is the worst thing possible, or if you gradually move into a more active lifestyle, you’ll notice less pain, less soreness and you’ll just become a natural part of your lifestyle. So, really, you got to look at your ability to adapt to stress first. Right? I’m sure many listeners and, you know, many of the clients that come to us, Dr. J, you know, their ability to adapt to stress, number one, is— is not very good. So, we wouldn’t necessarily put somebody on a Ketogenic Diet that had very low stress uh— adaptation. So, that’s the first thing that I would say. Second thing is this, is that, really, inflammation— Okay. There’s no better diet and nutrition plan to reduce inflammation fast than a Ketogenic approach or even— or a fasting. Okay. That’s gonna reduce inflammation faster than anything in your body, but again, can be stressful for the system, right— to just all of the sudden go into something along those lines. But, by reducing inflammation— okay, that’s gonna help improve not only most— most people with Thyroid issues are dealing with autoimmune issues. And so, it’s gonna reduce the autoimmunity on the Thyroid. It’s gonna reduce uh— you know, Thyroid nodule production — things like that. It’s also gonna help improve liver function, as well as gut function. And, liver and the gut are responsible for the main aspect of converting Inactive T4 and Active T3. And also, if the cells are real inflamed, we’re not gonna get good expression of the T3 at the— at— in the— in the cell and in the— in the Mitochondria to begin with. So, reducing inflammation is the most important thing to helping improve Thyroid Hormone Expression and to reduce stress on the body. Okay? So, from the theoretical perspective, a Ketogenic Diet and fasting can be amazing for Thyroid and Adrenals. Now, the other element that we’ve got to look out is this element of feasts and famines. So, when we’re fasting, or if we’re doing a Ketogenic approach and we’re keeping our Insulin real low. Our body, it’s kind of a signal to our body and our genome that we’re in a time of famine. Okay? Because, typically, when our ancestors came across a lot of food, they would eat a lot of it, so they would feast and Insulin will go up. So, it would have kind of an Insulin spike— not quite the Insulin spike we get today when we eat a whole bag of Frito-Lays. But, nevertheless, they would get a rise in Insulin. And so, that told the body, “Okay. We’re in a period of feasting right now. And then, we never— you know— That— That might last for a day or two, and then, we might have in a whole week, where we barely got any food. And so, this kind of Feast and Famine cycling is— is what our genome is— is accustomed to. And, it’s— it’s actually healthy for priming it. And so, basically, when we’re in a time of famine for a long period of time, like following a Ketogenic lifestyle and being in Ketosis for a month, two months— you know, three months or longer, uh— o— just altogether, without cycling out of that, it can send a signal. For some individuals, they— they feel really good. Thyroid expression is great. For other individuals, their T3 might start to lower, like the Thyroid Hormone may start to lower. They may get lower amounts of Thyroid activity at the cell, and then genome, because the body’s saying, “Okay. We’re in a period of famine. We want to slow down metabolic rate. We want to slow down at the amount of energy and the amount of uhm— ts— the amount of energy that were basically breaking down. So, that may be signal. So, for many individuals that have kind of a— a Thyroid issue or possibly an adrenal issue coming in. Cycling Carbs and finding a good strategy for that…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Dr. David Jockers: …where you have kind of this Ketogenic lifestyle as your foundation. But then, finding strategic times to cycle in a little bit of Carbs or Protein to get a little bit higher Insulin can set— tell the— the— our genetics, “Hey! We’re in a time of feasting now. We can reactivate Thyroid Hormone get that out and uh— bump that up for— for a period of time,” and finding kind of the right cycle for you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally makes sense. Now, last question here. Is a Ketogenic Diet practical long-term? Can you follow it long-term?

Dr. David Jockers: That’s a great question. So, a lot of people think, “Well, wow! That’s such a— a major dietary uh— change, and it’s such a restriction from what we grew up with, which was grains in every meal, uhm— and high-carb foods.” But actually, what you find is that after about— after the adaptation process, which is roughly a week to two weeks, depending on the individual, uhm— you actually notice that your cravings go down significantly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. David Jockers: If— Sometimes, for many people, they’re non-existent. You barely ever feel hungry. I have a lot of people writing me that are like, “You know what, I can eat more than one meal a day.” And so, for a lot of people, just the idea of even eating uh— That— That idea reduces. And so, they’re able to open up so much more time for everything else in their life. They’re still able to enjoy really good foods— kind of foods that Dr. J and I been talking about, but at the same time, they’re not driven by the need to eat every three to four to five hours. Right? Just constantly having to eat, constantly having to plan out meals. I know for myself, I eat one to two meals a day, uh— for the most part. I— I can’t remember the last time I ate breakfast. So, I’m eating once or twice a day. I’m not driven by food. I eat with my family, enjoy— you know— good time there. I might eat out. I might have a Protein shake after my workout. That’s about it. So, the— the actual time it takes for food preparation, for cleanup— things like that, is significantly reduced. I’m able to really stay focused, and uhm— you know, do the things I was put on the planet to do, rather than being driven by food. And so, that’s what most people experience as they get going with this. Actually, it’s a lot easier to follow a lot more sustainable than they’re actually originally thought.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. Yeah. Basically, you— you’re switching the metabolic machinery instead of starting that campfire and running on kindling in paper and gasoline. We’re putting good healthy logs in the fire that allow that fire to— to burn longer and stronger.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. Absolutely. [crosstalk] I mean, that’s really what it’s about. Yep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then also, just to piggyback what you said before.

Dr. David Jockers: yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know  when the Atkins Diet kind of got popularized in the 50’s and 70’s…

Dr. David Jockers: Uhmhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …but with Dr. Atkins. You know, there’s a lot of thought that all the benefit just came from cutting the Carbohydrate, which does help with a lot of the Insulin Sensitivity. But I think a lot of people in the Ketogenic Community, what they did was cutting out grains and cutting out some of these inflammatory foods made a huge difference. And now, we kind of have this like, Paleo Ketogenic Template, where we understand that— the nature of inflammatory foods. We understand maybe artificial sweeteners aren’t as good because— because the Carbohydrates aren’t there— they still may not be as good, or the refined vegetable oils, or the Soy Proteins and the Xenoestrogen. So, I think, we’ve taken the ketogenic diet and brought it to the next level looking at the micronutrients. Looking at the macronutrient quality…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …and then, also looking at the inflammatory nature of the food and not just lumping at all into this Carbohydrate Template.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, really, ultimately, we want an anti-inflammatory diet. I just want to also uh— remind everybody too that, basically, when you’re on a Ketogenic lifestyle, your Insulin is gonna go down significantly. And the benefit of that is significant reduction inflammation and cell reproduction. Uhm— So, that’s amazing. However, the other thing is Insulin retains minerals. Okay? So, when Insulin goes down, we lose more hydration and more minerals. In fact, when you lose weight early on a Ketogenic Diet, typically, it’s water weight in— in the first, you know, week or so because your body’s just getting rid of this fluid and hy— and minerals. And one of the biggest mistakes I see people make is they’re not replacing the minerals and the hydration. So, if you’re gonna try this approach, I would highly recommend making sure you’re hydrating well, uhm— consuming a lot of trace mineral rich foods, a lot of the foods that we already talked about, fermented foods, Olives, Avocados, sea vegetable, uhm— wild-caught fish, wi— pasture-raised animal products, very rich in trace minerals. Use a good high-quality sea salts or like a Pink Himalayan Salts on your foods, and salt it well. And stay hydrated throughout the day. Really, really, hydrate your body well, because you need that extra water. And that’s really— you know one of the key ways to get healthy anyways. You just got to— got to pee your way to good health, right? So, consume a lot of that water and just flush— flush out toxins, and you’ll feel a lot better when you do that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. make sure you’re adding up pinch of good quality sea salts…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …to your water.

Dr. David Jockers: Uhmhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Five to seven servings of green veggies and one full…

Dr. David Jockers: Yep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …Avocado a day should get you…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …that 4,700 milligrams of Potassium you need. Also, the Bone Broth, uhm— sip in that as well.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It can give you the extra Sodium and the electrolytes…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …’cause that’s one of the big things. If you’re having cramping or these issues, make sure you’re Potassium’s up…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …forty-seven hundred milligrams or higher. Magnesium, gram or 1,000 milligrams a day or higher. And then, make sure the water you’re drinking is also clean filter water, but also mineral-rich…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …or make sure…

Dr. David Jockers: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …you add a pinch of sea salt.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Would you agree?

Dr. David Jockers: Oh, absolutely. And that’s huge, especially if you’re following this Ketogenic approach, and you’re noticing Fatigue. If you’re dealing with Fatigue, then I would highly consider maki— looking at your hydration. Also, if you’re dealing with lot of hunger and cravings as you’re going through it, really consider your hydration. Start really focusing on hydration. I’ve found, that about 75% of the people that I’ve worked with that noticed a lot of Fatigue uhm— and cravings as they’re following this Ketogenic approach, once we address the hydration and the minerals, they feel a lot better.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Huge. [crosstalk] That’s cool.

Dr. David Jockers: For some of those individuals, they may need like a little bit of Thyroid hormone— you know— or something along those lines.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Dr. David Jockers: But, for many of them, it’s just a hydration and mineral issue.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. Last two things I’m gonna put out there. We hit our top five myths. So, this is bonus round. So, anyone that’s sticking…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …around here, you’re getting some extra gems. Number one, uhm— Ketoacidosis first ketosis. Mm— My take is, number one, Ketosis is, we’re talking nutritional Ketosis. We’re not talking nutr— Ketosis via starvation.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We’re talking Ketosis via adequate nutrition with keeping Carbohydrates down. That is a good thing. Ketone levels, maybe one to two milliMoles Ketoacidosis, ten and up on the milliMoles of Ketones. And number two, primarily happening in Type-I Diabetic patients without adequate levels of Insulin. Insulin drops.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: ‘Kay? Fuel can’t get into the cell. The body freaks out and overproduces Ketones to— to help compensate for the fuel source. What happens? That high level of Ketones is acidic, drops the pH, and that can put you into— into a coma via very low uhm— very low pH. Uh— Go ahead, I’ll let you give yours—

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …your take on it.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. Basically, Ketoacidosis is only gonna happen in a Type-I Diabetic or a Type-II. It’s completely lost the ability to [crosstalk] produce Insulin.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. David Jockers: And, they, more or less, need to be neglecting their health. They need to be non-cognizant that they need to actually uh— take supplemental Insulin, taking in Insulin injection. And so, that’s really the only way, and it’s characterized by really super high blood sugar, like blood sugar 300 and above sometimes. Okay. And, really, really high Ketones, like you said, ten. Really, it’s more like 15-20 or above…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. David Jockers: …uhm— with the— with the— the Ketones. Whereas, with nutritional Ketosis, you’re blood sugar’s gonna be under 100. Sometimes, it’s gonna be like 60 or 70.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. David Jockers: Some people are even saying, s— you know, “At times, our blood sugar is in the 40’s and 50’s.” So, s— So, very very low blood sugar because your body’s very Insulin-sensitive. And then, your Ketones, rather than being in this 20 to 25 range, they’re gonna be roughly somewhere between 0.5 and maybe 3.0…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Dr. David Jockers: … uh— depending on— unless, you’re fasting. ‘Kay. You’re only…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm—

Dr. David Jockers: …really, really gonna get up above 3.0 is kind of an extended fast.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think it’s really important because the conventional medical doctors out there, they have virtually zero training— and even RD’s—

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …zero training in— in nutrition from optimal health. They’re very skilled…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …in nutrition for pathology. Like, you talk about Vitamin C— you know— we’re gonna talk about Vitamin C benefits, they’re gonna talk about Vitamin C in Scurvy. They’re gonna talk about, you know, Beriberi and B1 Deficiency. They’ll talk about if you go into Ketosis— benefits of Ketosis, they’re gonna basically, conflate that with Ketoacidosis. So, just be careful. You’re seeing your conventional medical doctor and you’re engaging in the benefits of a Ketogenic diet and Ketosis. They’re gonna probably conflate that, and that’s kind…

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …of a Litmus Test to see if your doctor knows what they’re talking about.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, exactly. And I think just in general, doctors, as a whole, we’re kind of— we’re— we have this know it all mask because we’re high— high achievers.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. David Jockers: We’re high performers…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhm—

Dr. David Jockers: …so we just figured, if we didn’t learn about it in medical school, or if it hasn’t been like put…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bingo.

Dr. David Jockers: …right in the face that it must not be good, or it must be some sort of a fad. And so, rather than just being humble, it takes a really humble individual to say, “You know what, that’s an intere— that’s interesting. I haven’t looked into it yet. Uhm— So, I really don’t know.” [laughs] And so, for a doctor to say, “I don’t know,” very rarely ever happens. So, they’re gonna, typically have a strong opinion because they’re trying to provide their patients certainty. However, their opinion may not be based on any sort of uh— real true knowledge. And if they were really looking through the scientific literature, and studying that on Ketosis, they’d actually be excited about utilizing those with their patients.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And then, last thing I want to put out there. Want to get your take on it, too. As I see, a lot of patients, they switch from the Ketogenic Diet, or they switch from a Standard American Diet to a Lower Carb kind of Ketogenic Paleo Template. One of the biggest thing I see is, they tend to be eating a lot of Carbohydrate, which tends to be easier to digest and process. Now, they’re eating a lot more fat, a little bit more Protein, and they start feeling worse from the bloating or digestive standpoint.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: One of the things I find is that more Protein and more fat can be a little bit tough on the digestive system.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And, a lot of people, they— the— a Ketogenic Template can reveal the weak link in their digestive secretions regarding low stomach acid, low enzymes and some people need to up the bile salts, up the…

Dr. David Jockers: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …HCl, up the enzyme. And, if you move from the Ketogenic template, and you start noticing those symptoms, it doesn’t mean the diet is not good for you, or bad.

Dr. David Jockers: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s revealing a weak link in your digestive system. Go ahead, Dr. David.

Dr. David Jockers: I mean, it’s absolutely the truth, and to most people, because of stress. Stress is the antagonist to digestive juice production. And so, for…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Dr. David Jockers: …our body to be able to break down food, particularly meat— you know, you take a look at meat, unless it’s like a really, really well-cooked like Chicken Soup or something like that…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. David Jockers: …you just take a Steak. That’s Steak— you’re gonna need a lot of stomach acid, digestive enzymes, bile, in order to really break that down and metabolize it well. And so, as we start to age and stress, in general, is gonna reduce our ability to produce the stomach acid we need, the bile, the pancreatic enzymes. And so, yeah. Absolutely. Supplementing with that, can be extremely helpful. I’ve seen that just be a lifesaver for so many different individuals. And doing different strategies like drinking Ginger tea throughout the day can be really helpful.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. David Jockers: Uuhm— What else? Doing like Lemon, putting fresh squeezed Lemon or Lemon Juice, or Apple Cider Vinegar on the meat, like before you actually eat it, starts…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Dr. David Jockers: …pre-metabolizing it. Same— You can do it on the vegetables, too. Actually, it starts pre-metabolizing, breaking down the meat and the vegetables before it even gets into your body. So, it makes it easier in your digestive system. And really, ultimately, it’s all about— You know, we want to take stress off the digestive lining, ‘cause there’s only one cell wall — our— our intestinal lining. So, if we’re constantly putting food that’s not well digested up higher in the end, like in our stomach for example, into that intestinal lining, it’s like we’re just scarring it right up. We’re tearing that intestinal lining up. We’re gonna create leaky gut. We’re gonna get…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bingo.

Dr. David Jockers: …more inflammation and have a lot more problems. So, yeah. Taking really, really good care of your digestive lining is— is very important. I know, you teach that. I teach that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmhm—

Dr. David Jockers: I’ve got lot of articles in my website all about that. And we— we do touch on that as well in the Keto Edge Summit. We really uh— We really focused in on helping people improve their digestion so they can follow this Ketogenic lifestyle and uh— and do it effectively.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome. Love it. So, everyone listening, lots of knowledge bombs. Again, when you talk with two doctors like— like us, we’re providing clinical information, not theoretical stuff— actual information you can use to help improve your health and your life. And if you’re listening so far and you like this. This is the tip of the iceberg, right? Iceberg in the back.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Again, we’ll put the link down below. If so you’re driving, you can’t get it you can click down below And again, support the summit. Get the information out there. Share it with any of your friends or family that have any inflammation or any health issue. They’re gonna benefit totally. And then also, feel free and check out Dr. Jockers has got the best blog post out there. Amazing infographics. Again, even if you don’t want to read it, if you just check out the images in these blogs, you can learn so much.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. Thanks so much, man. That’s a— That’s a big thing we try do on my website. It’s make it as image rich as possible. I hate reading websites where it’s just narrative, you know. It’s like I tune out quickly. So, we really try to make it as image rich as possible; give people a really great reader experience. I appreciate you acknowledging that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You got it, Dr. Dave. Well, I appreciate everything and look forward to the summit going live in the next month. Everyone click down below. Subscribe.

Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Dr. David, it’s great chatting with you. We’ll talk real soon.

Dr. David Jockers: Absolutely. By the way, uhm— you definitely want to tune in. Day two (2) for Dr. J’s talk, where he really jives into Hypothyroidism and the Ketogenic Diet. We go a lot deeper than we did today.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, that’s great. Awesome. Very cool. Well, Thank you so much for that plug and we’ll talk soon Dr. David. Take care.

Dr. David Jockers: Alright. Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.


Keto Edge Summit Sign up:

“Press-Pulse Theory” for Cancer by Dr. Thomas Seyfried

Benefits of Ketogenic Diet by Dr. Dominic D’Agostino, University of South Florida

The Keto FX Summit – Get Your Keto Questions Answered – Podcast #172

The Keto FX Summit - Get Your Keto Questions Answered - Dr. Justin with Keith Norris Podcast #172


Keto f(x) Summit 

Paleo f(x) Conference

Dr. Justin Marchegiani welcomes back Keith Norris, co-founder of the Keto f(x) Summit in today’s podcast. Listen as they share great information about the Keto f(x) Summit and drop some knowledge bombs about ketosis and the ketogenic diet.

Know about the many benefits of having a Ketogenic Diet and find out how this type of diet can help in improving overall health and other conditions like cancer and seizure. Learn about some tweaks that you can make in this diet and explore how it affects thyroid and liver health.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani

In this episode, we cover:

02:24   Ketogenic diet and Cancer

13:44   Tweaking the Ketogenic Diet

20:11   Ketogenic Diet and Thyroid Issues

22:15   Ketogenic Diet and Liver Health

25:30   Ketogenic Diet and Collagen


Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey guys! It’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani here. We have a phenomenal guest back in the flesh. We are live here at YouTube. We got Keith Norris, cofounder of Paleo f(x), also cofounder of the Keto f(x) Summit, which is live now. So if you have not subscribed yet, click below in the description. There will be a link for you. If you’re listening on a podcast as well, just click that link and you’re good. Lots of good knowledge bombs that will be dropped over the next two weeks. The Summit just started yesterday and we got some videos going out daily. So make sure you grab it so you get that drip, drip, drip in the inbox every day. Love it. So, Keith Norris, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?

Keith Norris: Justin, it’s great to be on, man.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. Love it. Well, I was excited to be part of the Summit. I know we chatted uh—last month and my talk will be coming up on February 6. So my listeners, make sure you subscribe so you’re ready for my talk next week. And anyone listening to this show right now, give us a big thumbs up, give us a big share. Again, a lot of people don’t quite have their arms wrapped around ketosis and ketogenic diet. And this is the best summit that’s gonna bring in all of the experts all across the world to get you some bite-size information so you can start applying this and getting your help better.

Keith Norris: Yeah. There’s a lot of conflicting information out there, Justin. It is you know, I mean, we see this. We see a lot of the information they we’re like, “ Eeh, don’t know how you got that, but that’s exactly, that’s not the ketogenic diet.” But you know, I interviewed the 20—20 experts. 20 of them and I mean, if you’re interested in the ketogenic diet, if you’re interested for health reasons, for body comp reasons, for uhm—control of seizures reasons. I mean, if you have cancer, if you know, if someone in your family needs help, it is something for everybody in this package.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it. And today, we’re gonna just chat about kinda your top 3 to 5 favorite things that you learned coz you were interviewing all these people. And again, this is not limited to all the other goodies but a 3 to 5 things that resonated with you. So we were talking preshow talking about some of the uhm— radiation.

Keith Norris: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Like you know, Dom D’ Agostino spoke yesterday on the summit and we talked about some of the radiation components and how ketogenic diets are radiation protective. Can you go into that for the listeners?

Keith Norris: Yeah. Well, you know, Dom can get to it a hell a lot better than I can.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Keith Norris: I can give you the 30,000 foot flex.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Keith Norris: Though, uhm–Dom and I were at NASA a couple years ago. Uhm— we were at a roundtable and that roundtable discussion was about how to keep astronauts safe and healthy on an extended uh—period in zero gravity conditions. We’re limiting gravity conditions and this is all about sending astronauts to Mars. Uhm— what we currently know right now as we can keep astronauts fairly safe for you know, about a year but they degrade rapidly and even after a year they degrade pretty far.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Keith Norris. And why do they degrade? Obviously they’re in zero gravity conditions and there’s muscle wasting and you know there’s bone loss. There is even human brain volume loss during this time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Keith Norris: So how do we prevent that? Uhm, so I was at the uh—I was at that roundtable talking about eccentric exercise.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Dom was talking about using the ketogenic diet to keep us from___. And there’s a number of reasons why. Number one is muscle sparing, right? So that’s a big plus. But one of the—one of the biggest plus is the fact that it’s protected against the onslaught of radiation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Keith Norris: And what a lot of people don’t realize are these astronauts are just succumb to the immense amount of radiation. So much so that the talk within NASA is to send up astronauts who were a little bit older and maybe beyond childbearing years.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Really?

Keith Norris: Yes. So uhm—because there is— because they are inundated with so much radiation. With the ketogenic diet, there is actually protective of healthy cells against the onslaught of radiation. And Don obviously goes into the science of all this. I’m not the science guy but he goes into the science of why that works. But the trickle-down effect of that is people who are undergoing radiation treatment for cancer, for instance. So there’s a twofold—there’s a twofold benefit with the ketogenic diet as__for cancer. Number one, if someone’s going to radiation treatment, radiation treatment is essentially a corporate bomb of all cells, right? And it just—so there’s colla—there’s a lot of collateral damage during that process of healthy cells. In ketogenic diet it’s very, very protective of these healthy cells.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Let’s talk about the—go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead.

Keith Norris: Yup. Also, I’m gonna say that just about every cancer out there feeds off of glucose, right? So if you starve the body of glucose utilizing the ketogenic diet, that’s the flipside of that. So that also aids in the treatment of cancers. So it—that was one very, very interesting topic that we discussed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. And also, neurologically, you know, a lot of the brain cells uhm—you know, they run off of glucose to a certain degree, but as you get more insulin resistant, meaning yourself get more numb to that hormone insulin, then the brain, certain parts of the brain have a problem utilizing that glucose fuel. So getting some of those ketones up can help wake up some of those brain cells that have not been able to access glucose. And also the plaque that forms in the brain from inflammation, the enzyme insulin degrading enzyme is really important cleaner for cleaning up that plaque. And if you’re too busy making insulin, then your body is dealing with the metabolism of insulin versus the metabolism of the plaque in your brain. Can you chat— did you go in any of those neurological aspects with Dom, too?

Keith Norris: Yeah. Dom did as well. And uh—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great.

Keith Norris: You know I would hate to try to butcher what he will—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Keith Norris: I’ll tell you one thing that’s super, super interesting about this. And this would—this comes back to what our plates actually look like when we eat.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Keith Norris: So NASA is very interested in this diet as well because you can’t imagine like to send my cell phone into space, that’s an astronomical cost.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Really?

Keith Norris: Yeah. It’s astronomical in the amount of fuel that it requires to send something in an orbit. So if you can cut essentially the amount of uh—food that you’re sending up into orbit, that’s a massive—a. it’s a space safe and b. it’s a massive money save, too. And Dom went through the calculations when we’re at NASA. It’s almost 2 SUV’s full of material that they would save sending into space if they had these guys and gals on the full ketogenic diet during the— during the round-trip.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow!

Keith Norris: That’s a massive savings, right? But then you ask, “Okay, so what?” That’s a big savings but what do our plates look like when we actually have them in front of us, right? That’s— all that is a saying that fat carries twice caloric _ than protein or carbohydrates do. So the volume that you’re actually consuming—this is actually one of the big benefits that I find is the volume of food that I eat is so small, I don’t have that, “Uh, I just ate, you know, 5 pounds of food in my stomach feeling. I love that empty feeling in my stomach because I’m active all day. I don’t like that bloated you know, I just ate 5 pounds of spaghetti feeling in my stomach. I don’t have that anymore.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent. And then also the fact that ketones have a natural appetite suppression type of effects, so it really hits those satiation signals in the transverse lateral part of the hypothalamus that—that signal satiation, uh— which is great. And we know carbohydrates typically don’t have that signal specially refine ones. That’s why you know, everyone can go back to their college days with a— maybe ate a whole pizza to themselves or think back to the pringles commercials of the 90’s, right?

Keith Norris: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Where it’s once you pop you can’t stop, right?

Keith Norris: That’s right. You know, Rob Wolf went into this to a great degree talking about how our food manufacturers manipulate our own wiring or dopamine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-uhm.

Keith Norris: And you know, our dopamine response to food. Uhm—Evan gives a great example of a—an eating contest, right? So uh— for instance a guy that challenges to eat—I don’t know what it was—it was like—like 8 gallons of ice cream. It was ridiculous.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Keith Norris: Well, how did he do that? Because after certain while even with the best tasting ice cream you can imagine, obviously, you’re going to get pushback from the body. You’re gonna quit, stop.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Keith Norris: So how did he power through that? He ordered a plate of extra crispy, extra salty fries so he would eat some ice cream, shell a few fries, reset the taster, so to speak. And now he was able to eat more ice cream, right? And food manufacturers know this and they are in business to sell you food and to get you to eat more. So this is how they manipulate the whole fat-sugar-salt to eat. Another example uhm—Doritos came out recently with a—I can’t remember what the exact uh—anyway there’s— there’s different levels of heat in these chips and every—I would bet it is a based on mathematical uh— probability that they have what they call like I don’t know, like an atomic heat.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. Uh-hmm.

Keith Norris:.. in the chips. So that—so now it’s is so now it’s gamification of eating. So people are eating all these chips, right? And you know, “Hey, I got the atomic—I got the atomic chip. “Well that works both psychologically and it works on your— on your internal dopamine system to get you to eat more. It’s just incredible— incredible.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know Rob has also talked about—yeah, that’s phenomenal. I know Rob’s also talked about the—the inflammatory component, too, where you know, you may eat foods that have a higher degree of inflammation whether it’s with their fatty acid profile or because of food uh—allergy components in there. And that can actually increase your sugar levels via cortisol, via stress hormone that could also prevent you from burning fat for fuel efficiently as well. Did Rob go into that in his talk at all?

Keith Norris: Yeah. He did. And many people went through the discussion of—so the question being if the ketogenic diet goes off the tracks, where does it go off the tracks? And it’s— when it does go off the tracks, it’s not with the diet itself, it’s with the application. So generally what happens is a type A personality who’s already hard drive in you know, just probably not sleeping well, working too hard yada yada yada too much stress on the body now adapts the ketogenic diet and they’re not gonna ease into it. They’re gonna go full force into it. And what is at result? That’s another stress from the body. It’s more cortisol. It’s more disruption in the body and uh—yes, so, you know, people— if it does go off the rails, that’s a big portion or a big probability of why it went off the rails.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And that’s the big this is the application component. Coz a lot of people listen to this and you know like, “Well, I don’t think that’s for me.” Well, here’s the thing that I noticed with a lot of people that I work with is number one, if someone’s on a higher carb type of you know kick, metabolically their bodies are more of a sugar burner. So as we shift back to being more of a fat burner, they may get a little bit a kickback as it takes a few weeks to kind of Keto- adapt. But what I tell people, even if you feel— even if you feel little bit better with more carbohydrates, think of ketogenic diet as like a spectrum. You’re probably going to feel better being 80 to 70, you know, 70-80 90% more in that direction on the ketogenic side. You may not be 100% but just pushing it more in that direction, you can still see benefits. It doesn’t have to be an all or nothing thing, is that true?

Keith Norris: Yeah. Oh, totally. And you see this across the board from the experts talking about it. And I think one of the things, too, that I that I picked up is that nobody has to rush into this, right? Unless you have a condition like epilepsy or—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Keith Norris: We need to shift quickly. But just for body comp, for overall health, we have time to ease into this. It doesn’t have to be a punch in the face and you don’t have to go through that you know, the severe carb flu and anything like that. You can ease into this. And the other thing is you’re not gonna get it right right off the bat. Give yourself some leniency and tweak, tweak, tweak as you go along make it better, make it better, make it better. You know, it’s the old Zen thing, the K__ idea, “If I’m gonna be better tomorrow than I was today..”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Keith Norris: We just want to take progressive steps, progressive steps, progressive steps. Give yourself some leniency because one of the— one of the things also when you talk to these experts and I’ve noticed this myself and the people that I’ve trained is whenever you start shipping somebody into the ketogenic diet, they want to subconsciously just because of how we’ve been smacked with the fear of fat. They turn this into a high-protein, moderate fat, low carbohydrate diet that was very much like an Atkin’s diet, right? And so you have to kind of talk them off the cliff there. Why the ketogenic diet is not working for me? Well, let’s go back and look at your macros and see where you sit. And many times, it’s a high-protein, which is not the end of the world, right? But that’s not the ketogenic diet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. I’ve heard—I’ve heard Dom talk about it and maybe he talked about it in your interview with him, but the ketogenic diet kinda started off 90 to 92%, fat 6-8% protein, 1 to 2% carbohydrate and this is primarily with kids that had epilepsy.

Keith Norris: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now one of the things they found is there was an Igf-1deficiency going that low protein for that long period of time. So these kids were like having stunted height things like that. I know Dom I think did posit some research over I want to say Duke where they up the protein to about 20 to 25%. They increase the Igf, which is beneficial to someone that’s growing or wants to maintain muscle mass, but they were still able to keep all of those ketogenic benefits. So there’s like that 20 to 25% threshold of protein that seems to be that upper level where you can still keep the benefits. So some people they do it the traditional word super high fat very low protein and then are some that can kick up a little bit and they can still get a happy medium. Any thoughts on that?

Keith Norris: And I would say also that uh—you know, so the question came up quite a bit of uhm—ca you do vegan keto?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhm. Great question.

Keith Norris: Can you? Obviously, you can. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Keith Norris: You can do that, but uhm—to rope back into the low protein side of things, there is a danger there, right? So, I mean you know if you’re if –if you’re gonna absolutely have no animal products whatsoever, you can pull it off. You can pull of the ketogenic diet, but you, you know, that protein requirement is still there and that works right back around to to Dom’s study that he cited. Something else I thought was very interesting uhm—are you familiar with the Lewis__?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It sounds familiar.

Keith Norris: Yeah. So, now this is a bodybuilding community, a heavy-duty bodybuilding community that uses the ketogenic diet. And uhm— if you— when you look at their protein intakes, it’s not very high it’s about .8 per .8 g per pound of lean body mass, right? So they’re not even taking the full—full body weight. They are looking at lean body mass. And when you— when you run through the calculation, that’s not a whole lot of protein, right? And that’s how—that’s how they set their macros. They set it with protein first using the uh—the amount of lean body mass you carry. But still, you know the uh—the old idea that uh bodybuilders need just massive amounts of protein, they’ve proven that wrong and they’ve proven that wrong for many, many years. He’s been in the game for quite a while.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So that’s 8.8g per per pound of lean?

Keith Norris: Yup. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So let’s say you’re 200 lbs and let’s say maybe that’s 10-15% let’s say 15 to 20% fat. So you’re sitting around maybe 160-165 lean and then you do the math on that, that’s what? A 130 g of protein or so a day?

Keith Norris: Yeah. That’s—that’s not a lot compared to traditional bodybuilding requirements.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Keith Norris: They’d probably double that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes. So that’s about 4 to 6 ounces of protein three times a day.

Keith Norris: Yup. It’s not a whole lot.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay. Interesting.

Keith Norris: By body building standards, anyway.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And yourself, how—what are your macros like and how much protein you get in a day? Maybe around 200g, 160?

Keith Norris: Yeah. You know, it fluctuates day-to-day because you know, I’m really—I don’t ever measure macros really at this point now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Keith Norris: I’ve gone through that period. I’ve done my measurements. I kind of know how it how it feels to be in. Yeah. So, uh– I don’t know. I know it varies and it varies every day but I can tell you the thumb rules that I use. I always opt for the fattiest cuts possible in my meats.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Keith Norris: So that’s—that’s number one. I’m gonna have meat, but it’s gonna be the fattiest cut I can, given the option, right? So I find—so just this weekend, I was out. Uhm in a very nice restaurant in San Antonio and uhm—I’m looking through the menu, I’m going, “Okay, how am I gonna navigate this?” I saw a rib eye.

Justin: Oh, love it!

Keith Norris: So I tell the waiter, “I want the fattiest rib eye that the chef can find in the back.” Of course he looks at me like, “Are you crazy?” I’m like, “ I want the fattiest rib eye that you can bring out.” So it’s just uh little tricks like that that you learn along the way. You know, how can I add fat into my intake and uhm where can I do that, where can it taste better. And uh—that’s how I roll. So I’m beyond the uh—beyond the actual measuring. But there is a—there is a place for that. For people just coming into this diet, right? Because I’ve done this work for years. I mean, it’s just part of who I am. But somebody just coming into this diet is gonna have to do some weighing and measuring and tracking to get—you know, to get a feel for this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And the way I kinda do it is very similar. I typically tell my patients uhm—a palm to a fist to a full hand of protein per meal. That’s gonna be dependent upon how active you are, how stressed you are lifting weights, etc. Two fist to two full hands of of vegetables and then depending on how we’re at, half the palm to a palm maybe of some berries uhm—as a good starting point of recycling carbs, maybe a palm of sweet potatoes at night primarily. So I kinda do it similarly with something visual. That way you’re not having to go to your Chronometer, to my fitness pal and plug stuff in or pull out your bodybuilding scale.

Keith Norris: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, you know, uhm—just you know, create a high level of anxiety every time you eat doing it that way. You always get your hands right there, right? So it’s easy to see. Keith Norris: That’s what we wanna do. We wanna move as quickly as we can to this being just a very, very, natural diet where you don’t have to think about it. It just—it just is. We want you to be able to end up to the point where you’re—you kinda know. You already go into a restaurant, you kinda know I’m probably gonna have to order à la carte, which I do quite often, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Keith Norris: I’ll just order—order stuff à la carte and you just know the questions to ask.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool.

Keith Norris: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we got some questions coming in. So, listeners if you’re checking this out, leave us a chat here. We’ll try to answer your question. Just keep it uhm— relevant to ketosis. Uh— someone talks about here, “How do you prevent ketosis from blowing your thyroid?” I’ll grab that one first, then I’ll get your opinion. Number one, some of the early research on ketogenic diets and low thyroid used a lot of polyunsaturated fats. So we gotta be careful with those because polyunsaturated fats, if heated, can usually oxidize and rancidify. Uhm—fish oils, those kind of things. So if we’re eating whole fish, that’s fine. But if we’re adding in good high-quality saturated fats, uhm—they’re much more heat stable, less chance of oxidation. And a lot of people I find have thyroid issues because of insulin resistance. So if you have a thyroid conversion issue or excess inflammation because of insulin resistance, a ketogenic diet can significantly help that. There are small percent of the population that may have lower thyroid symptoms as they go more ketogenic. We typically can see them coz they are already leaner, but that for me, that’s my default starting point is a lower carb in that ketogenic spectrum. And then if we have issues, we can—we can progress the carbs, operate it and dial it in. Your thoughts, Keith Norris?

Keith Norris: Well, I was just gonna say that Justin, you went into that very discussion.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Keith Norris: And during—during your interview. So I was uh—you know, for the ___, I question, be sure to watch what your interview. Also, be sure to watch uhm—Ross’ interview as well. So L Ross’s with the uh—with the uh—she’s with Mark Sison’s group. Uhm—and uhm—she—I believe she still has__podcast.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, very cool.

Keith Norris: In fact she’s very, very knowledgeable on the female side of things uhm— talking about thyroid issues because she’s one of these people who is self educated uhm—and she had severe thyroid issues and she had to navigate this. Uhm—and she knows a lot about thyroid and the female side of things. So for those interviews, yours and L Ross’

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that’s the question we get a lot about ketogenic diet and intermittent fasting and female hormones and thyroid.

Keith Norris: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’m gonna refer everyone. Make sure you subscribe down below and get access to that. Coz that talk is gonna be next week. So make sure you sign up so you can get access to it. And then also, another the person writes in, “How important is liver health when doing ketosis? Uhm— my take on it is number one, carbohydrate is gonna be the most you know, excess carbohydrates is gonna be the most damaging thing to the liver primarily fructose. It up regulates these enzymes and the liver called the JMKY enzymes uh—jump for short, very inflammatory. And that’s where we kinda have that non-alcoholics the steato hepatitis. That’s the fatty liver from excess carbs.

Keith Norris: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I find ketogenic diet incredibly liver protective as long as we’re trying to eat grass-fed organic, pasteur fed things. The fat can accumulate a lot of toxins so more organic. And then the other question I get all the time I wanted you to take on it is, “Oh, ketogenic diet is gonna hurt my kidney function. And I have a low kidney function.” Robb Wolf did a case study on this about three years ago, where he had someone with 10% kidney function. He got him on like a 90% fat diet and he was able to get their kidney function back to 100%.

Keith Norris: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Because when your kidneys are already weak, your protein, it’s not gonna cause the issue, but it’s gonna be a stressor on the liver—on the kidneys to begin with. So, doing super, super low-protein, super high-fat can help with icy liver and kidney function. Your take?

Keith Norris: Yeah. I was just gonna second everything you said. Very protective for those organs and in something that uh— that just hit me when we’re talking about liver, this is completely tangential to that particular question. But, I guess Chris Kresser. Chris Kresser is another speaker in the summit. And I asked him about organ meats and especially liver.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Keith Norris: And his take on that is you know, even with the __raised animals, even in that situation, the liver does not necessarily hold toxins.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Keith Norris: It’s the job of body fat to hold toxins.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Keith Norris: Uhm so, I guess my point is whenever we’re talking about eating especially animal fats, let’s try to move. And I know—I know it’s not doable for everybody in their situation right now but as soon as you can, start migrating over to humanely raised paster raised animals and try to get out of the whole capital of the confined animal uhm—what the hell is it—something operation— feeding operation—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. Feeding operation. Yup. Yup.

Keith Norris: So conventionally raised meats. So, let’s try to move towards grass-fed, grass- finished pasteur-raised animals because toxin buildup in the fat and you want to eat the fat. I mean that’s the goal line. And you want to eat relatively toxin-free.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% And this question I get a lot. Sam writes in here, but I actually get this intel from someone that spoke at your Paleo f(x) conference last year. So we’ll put a little plug for Paleo f(x) that’s coming up the end of April down in Austin. But Jordan Rubin spoke and he talked about the amino acid profile in collagen as having less effective of increasing gluconeogenesis. And that some of the things we worry about when we eat excess protein is some of that convert into sugar and pulling us out of a ketogenic state. What’s your take on maybe you know smaller amounts of collagen maybe in your coffee or to your—to your water, throwing in your smoothie as a way of getting some protein in but not enough to throw you out of ketosis. What’s your take on that?

Keith Norris: Yup. For that very reason, uh—Michelle generally keeps a bat of bone growth going 24 seven 365 here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Keith Norris: And uh—what I do, so that’s already pretty collagen heavy because we use a lot of chicken or she does.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Keith Norris: She uses a lot of chicken feet and that but I also add collagen powder to that mix and blend it up. So, yes, uh— for that very reason, I will add extra collagen into my—and so that does account for a good portion of my protein intake.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great. Yeah. Well, people are thinking about protein in their head kinda draw a line between like muscle meat protein, organ meat protein—

Keith Norris: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:– and connective tissue ligament tendons high you know in cartilage. So kinda draw that line. So the big thing is that we want very careful of the excess muscle meat.

Keith Norris: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s why you are doing the rib eye where there’s more fat and stuff in there.

Keith Norris: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, by the way, quick question for me. This is kind of a selfish question. Who has the best rib eye in Austin? What do you think?

Keith Norris: Austin—I don’t know. I was in San Antonio at the Dominion in San Antonio’s where is where I was. Uhm—you know when I’m in Austin, I’m a barbecue guy. And if we’re talking barbecue, I will give you this tip, Justin.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Keith Norris: Go to Freedmen’s.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Freedmen’s— awesome.

Keith Norris: Yeah. The bar downtown uh—at some 24th and St. Gabriel I think. Somewhere in that area. It’s a bar but they have an expert uh— grill master there. And the barbecue is just insanely off the chain. So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, love it.

Keith Norris: So when I’m in Austin, I’m a barbecue guy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it. Here are my top three for Austin: Perry’s downtown on Seventh Street.

Keith Norris: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The uhm—The Three forks.

Keith Norris: Uh-huh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: __Chavez. And I’d say the Roaring Fork for number three. The Roaring Fork used to have grass-fed steak three years ago. They pulled it off the menu but those are my top three. And if you go to Three Forks, get the Kings Butter. Uh—it is just absolutely—

Keith Norris: Ahh. Nice. Yeah. And if Perry’s had pork chop, whoo—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, Friday that pork chop, man. And too bad, they got a little bit of barley malt glaze in it.

Keith Norris: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. It’s like 0.01% gluten. I’m like, “Dude, you got to figure out a way!”

Keith Norris: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: But I just go there with some activated charcoal and some enzyme DPP 4 enzyme uh to knock it out.

Keith Norris: Right. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Totally.

Keith Norris: That’s great.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Any other last questions, comments, anything else you want to mention here, Keith Norris, about the summit or anything else?

Keith Norris: Man, I would just really, really encourage people to dive into this deal. I mean 20 experts all whose interviews are between an hour an hour and a half. It’s just so much knowledge and so much information. And each one of these interviewees is offering a free material as well you know, their own personal material. So this –this package is just__ There’s just so much information there and I would highly encourage people to jump on it. Uhm during the during this rollout weeks, starting yesterday going to 9th of February, you can get this entire package for 79 bucks.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it.

Keith Norris: After the night, it’s going to go up. It’s only gonna go up a little bit. It’s gonna go up to 99. But jump in now, get it for 79 and I’m telling you, one Justin’s interview by itself is worth $79. I’m telling you, there’s so much information and you gonna want to have this package at your disposal because I’m telling you, you’re going to go through these these interviews and you’re gonna want to stop, pause, rewind, watch it again later. Google some stuff, do some research, write notes and you want to be able to do that. And the price point is low enough to where that’s accessible. You wanna get your PhD in Keto, I’m telling you, you’re gonna get it out after all these interviews, Justin, my head is about exploded and I finished talking with all people Dom d’Agostino. And I tell them before the interview, I’m like, “My brain is already burdened.” And I know this is good, totally do it in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. He went, “Yeah, you indeed.” It was a normal Dom d’Agostino conversation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely love it. And I subscribed as well. So I’m getting the videos email to myself personally and at my lunch break, I’m firing them up and I’m going through it on because it’s a lot of clinical knowledge. So if you’re a practitioner listening—

Keith Norris: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There’s still phenomenal information for you to be able to apply and as a— as a patient or someone coming that’s __on this, there’s gonna be so much information. It’s gonna be like tricking out of a firehouse but there’s phenomenal speakers so they–they teach the information really well.

Keith Norris: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know Rob Wolf does an amazing job and I know uh—Dom does as well. So lots of information, great teachers. And also, I want to plug Paleo (f)x again a lot of these people in this summit are going to be speaking at Paleo (f)x So if you feel a connection with any of the people here, the next best step is to sign up for Paleo(f)x and make a trip down to Austin before it gets hot and see some of these people in person.

Keith Norris: Yeah. Coz it will be get hot. (laughs)

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’m glad you put the seminar a month earlier this year with Paleo. That’s great.

Keith Norris: Yeah. Because even in May, it’s starting to get a little steamy here. Yeah. We had to fight the__ to get that April day. But I think we got them –we got them locked in. We’re a big enough event now where we have some __, some muscle behind this. Uh—but yeah, the good thing about a online summit is it’s online. You can see it anywhere in the world. You can take part. The bad part about an online summit is it’s online and you don’t get to have those people face-to-face, have that intimate conversation, uhm—you rub elbows with like-minded people and just get that tribe vibe.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent.

Keith Norris: that you get from—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We’re gonna put the links below for Paleo(f)x and Keto (f)x. So, if you guys are interested, that’s the next logical step. It’s a no-brainer. Just subscribe and just get the information first and at least kick tires. And then you’re wanna go the whole 9 yards. Keith Norris, it was awesome having you on the show, man. Uh—lot of knowledge bombs. I look forward to the summit unfolding over the next two weeks. And you have a phenomenal day.

Keith Norris: Absolutely. Take care, Justin.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Take care, Keith Norris.


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