Today’s episode talks about mitochondrial health. Listen as Dr. Justin and Dr. Tim, a doctorate of Physical Therapy (DPT), a nutritional biochemist and functional endocrinologist engage in an informative discussion about improving the mitochondria, ways to protect the DNA on the mitochondrial side from oxidative stress and damage and importance of Superoxide Dismutase (SOD).
Watch the video and answer the questions about genetic markers that we need to look at to gleam a predisposition of having mitochondrial stress or dysfunction, learn the effects of glutathione deficiency and superoxide dismutase, and many more!
Dr. Tim Jackson
In this episode, we cover:
00:17 Genetic Markers
01:42 Ways to Protect DNA from Oxidative Stress and Damage
09:55 Carnitine
15:31 Three Pronged Approach: Repair, Protect and Fuel
29:06 Glutathione S-transferase Mu
Dr. Tim Jackson: Dr. Justin, thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good. Well, what's going on there? We were talking about some genetic test, uhm, pre-called with one of my patients, you gave me some good feedback, I appreciate that. Let's dive in to some genetic markers that we can look at to maybe gleam a predisposition for having some mitochondrial stress or dysfunction. What would those be?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, uh, looking at superoxide dismutase or SOD-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -polymorphisms, uh, along with polymorphisms in the glutathione pathway, whether it's uh, GSTN uhm or GPX, uh because both glutathione and Superoxide Dismutase are the two bodyguards that sit in front of your mitochondria. Uhm, our nuclear DNA is protected by histones and so is not as susceptible to oxidative damage.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And what are histones?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Histones are just proteins uhm, that help, uh, kinda coil up uh-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -the DNA, and uh, organize it and also protect it. Uh, and mitochondrial DNA uh, does not have those, so it's kind of sitting out uh-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Aah…
Dr. Tim Jackson: -alone by itself. And if you're deficient in glutathione and superoxide dismutase, then uh, it's much easier for the mitochondria to become damaged.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So regular DNAs has histones which protect that coil up around the DNA, but mitochondrial DNA does not have histones that make it more vulnerable, is that correct?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Ok, got it. So, what does that mean? What can we do to protect our DNA on the mitochondrial side, uhm, form oxidative stress and damage?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, obviously, you know, looking at things like stealth infections, mold, dysbiosis, blood sugar imbalances, all of those uhm, will create inflammation and ultimately stress the mitochondria-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uh but in order to, you know, protect it and upregulate the SOD compound or superoxide dismutase and glutathione, uh, we can use things that upregulate NRF2. And NRF2 is just uh ce- cellular control switch, uhm that is responsible for detoxifying, uh, certain compounds-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -but also upregulating your antioxidant, your endogenous antioxidant production. So if we can do things that control many different reactions-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -that's a lot better than going, you know, tip-for-tat, trying to uhm, you know, correct imbalances.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, got it. So let's repeat those nutrients. So, obviously, superoxide dismutase is a- is a big one, and where can we get that supplementally?
Dr. Tim Jackson: So, there are several companies that have uh, SOD, uhm, in the capsule or tablet. Uh, I haven't seen any good data on how terrible it is, uhm, so, I try to do things that will upregulate it upstream, uhm, instead of just uh, you know, trying to absorb even in the uh- and optimally helping gut, I don't know how will absorb SOD would be. Uh, but if you upregulate NRF2, and things- plenty of things can do that. Uh, but one that's specific to the mitochondria is molecular-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -hydrogen. And molecular hydrogen- what makes it so unique, is that it's-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -really tiny. So it can get to where we need it to go, which is in the mitochondria.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.
Dr. Tim Jackson: It- it helps to stab in the nasty- really nasty free radical called peroxynitrite.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And not only that, it stimulates the production and creation of new mitochondria, which the only other things to do that are exercise and PQQ.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent, very good. What about fasting? How much does fasting have an impact on the mitochondria?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, it has a tremendous impact uhm, in terms of upregulating, you know, autophagy, cleaning the cells-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uh, that sort of thing. Uh, the only thing I would caution with fasting is that, you know, if someone's HPA, thyroid, gut, vanadyl axis [crosstalk], and uh, you fast, then that may in fact worsen their metabolism and metabolic rate.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that's a thing. I see a lot of people with adrenal issues and also thyroid issues, and they may even have some blood sugar stuff, and they're hearing all the rage of fasting that people getting lots of benefits but that may actually exacerbate their issues, right, it can increase the HPA-TA, or, you know, increase that stress and it can even potentially lower thyroid hormone more by increasing reversed T3.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, yeah, absolutely. And uh, lot of times, you know, you can develop hypothyroid symptoms-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, adrenal insufficiency-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -and/or cortisol resistance.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. Good. So, we have- you mentioned- was that the molecular hydrogen you mentioned- you mentioned the superoxide dismutase, correct? Uh-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Err- what about various compounds like resveratrol or curcumin, what do you think about them? How do they do with the mitochondria?
Dr. Tim Jackson: So, curcumin works on uh, control switch called NF-kappa-beta. And basically, uh, you know, genes generally aren't turned completely on or off, it's more-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -like adjusting the volume on your stereo. And so, curcumin helps downregulate NF-kappa-beta-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -and that results in less inflammatory markers which is-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -cytokines-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uh, TNF-alpha, ___[05:48]. And so, curcumin, uh, works, uh, on several levels. It upregulates glutathione by up to 600%-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uh, it downregulates NF-kappa-beta, so-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -you're not giving the inflammatory stress. And that's also has some antimicrobial properties. And, uh, not to get too far off topic but certain viruses can get- retroviruses can get stuck in the mitochondria. And if- if you have a patient, or if you're someone who- you've been taking a lot of CoQ10, you've been taking lot of carnitine, you might even have done IV-NAD, and you didn't felt benefit, then it means your mitochondria are damaged and we need to repair them. Uhm, and you tell me when you want me to go into the three pronged approach of how to heal the mitochondria.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That's great, excellent. So is there anythi- other supplements you can- you can highlight before we dive into that? What about resveratrol? People have talked about that. What's your take on resveratrol?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, uhm- it- it's not very absorbed, uhm-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -by most companies. Uhm, you know, even if you add uh-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -___[07:01] to it, or black pepper. Uh there was a company that had transdermal resveratrol-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -but I think the vinyl FDH shut them down. Uhm but I think there are a few products out there uhm, that have liposomal resveratrol.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, you know, that would be better absorbed, for sure. Uhm, but yeah, I mean, it works on multiple levels, it can help, you know, with hormone metabolism, uhm, and free radical stress-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -anti-aging, so many things.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Any other supplements you wanna highlight, kinda low-hanging fruit nutrients, you wanna make note of?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- B- well, I would say, you know, L-carnitine, or Acetylcarnitine.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, you know, if you had certain polymorphisms, you might not be able to carry fatty acids into the mitochondria-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -where they get burned for energy-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -what we call beta-oxidation.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so Acetylcarnitine is like an uber for fatty acids-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: American shuttle.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly. And so, you know, that's a supplement that uhm, helps mitochondrial health, helps improve metabolism, uhm it can help burn fat, uhm, energy production, etc. So, yeah, I would say that- that's definitely low-hanging fruit. Uhm, and then, you know, the molecular hydrogen, you're not to harp on that too much but it- it does so many different things. Uhm-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How do you get the molecular hydrogen? I know you mentioned Cindy Crawford has a skin-care line with those compounds in it. I know you mentioned there's a molecular hydrogen machine that you've been supporting and using for a while.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How we can get more molecular hydrogen into our body?
Dr. Tim Jackson: So, uh, the company trusii, T-R-U-S-I-I, uh, there's many companies offering molecular hydrogen machines. But this company, uhm, they have a- a really great machine, uhm depending on how much you'll wanna spend, uhm you just add reverse osmosis or ___[09:08] as water. And it's- uhm, add some molecular hydrogen to it, uhm, so you don't have to keep buying out the supplement, you know, every month. It's a better alternative investment in my opinion. Uhm, the more expensive machine also contains a nasal cannula-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -so you can breathe that in, uhm, and molecular hydrogen. So the highest concentration of mitochondria is in our nervous system.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: The second co- highest concentration is in our heart. Uhm, and so, by improving uh, mitochondrial function, we can improve brain health, brain fog, fatigue, uhm, you know, difficulty concentrating, and also, uhm, have better for fusion to our tissues, because we have better cardiac output.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, interesting, very good. Awesome. Uh, one thing I wanted to highlight too, you were talking about carnitine a minute ago. Carnitine is important because there's key amino acids you need to make it. Methionine and lysine are really important ones, and a lot of those amino acids are missing in vegetarian type diets. So if you're not eating animal products, we are not getting supplemental amino acids while being vegetarian, it may be hard- you'd be missing some of those key nutrients that are important for making carnitine. [Crosstalk]
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. And the process of methylation, uh, which is you know, collection of a hundred and- or almost 200 different uh reactions in the body. Uh, helps reduce CoQ10 and the L-carnitine. And so if you're deficient in B12 or methyl folate, or your methylation cycles disrupted because of uh heavy metals or environmental pollutants, then you won't create as much endogenous uhm L-carnitine and CoQ10.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. And can you talk more about methylation. So, a methyl group is a carbon in 3 hydrogen. So essentially hen we methylate, we're just binding those compounds, uhm, to whatever that reaction is, whether it's neurotransmitters or B-Vitamins. Can you talk kinda more about it like, what does that really- what's really happening kinda at a biochemical level inside of our cells when we're methylating and- and where does this happen?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, so it happens uhm, and all the cells in the body and it involves no just B12 and methyl folate but all the other B-Vitamins, as well as-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -mineral cofactors such as magnesium and zinc. Uhm, and-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -you know, you probably heard of supplements like TMG or DMG-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, those are-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk]
Dr. Tim Jackson: -yeah those are major methyl burners uhm that have been shown to improve cognitive function. Uhm, but methylation is responsible for everything from detoxification, to producing glutathione to uh, producing certain immune cells, the CD4, CD8, T-helper, T-suppressor cells. Uhm, and also, metabolism of your estrogens. So-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -if you're not methylating your estrogens, you tend to recycle or reabsorb them. And uh, you know, methylation can get turned off, uh, independent of any polymorphisms, you know. But if you have polymorphisms and uh methylation or MTHFR, then that certainly uhm, you know tells us that you at some point, you know, in the right context, need both B12 and methyl folate along with the other B-Vitamins.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And so what's happening in the body? These nutrients are- are- they're affecting obviously brain chemicals or affecting detoxification like, what's happening? Like, just to keep it simple.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, so, basically adding a methyl group, uhm, helps with the creation of glutathione, but you're also getting neurotransmitters like ___[12:54]
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -to turn into dopamine, produce.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, there's a condition called cerebral folate deficiency, where uh, due to certain antibodies, uhm, you might have uh, enough, uhm methylfolate or folinic acid in your cells but it might not be in the cerebral spinal fluid.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And uhm there are a couple labs I think that test for it now, it used to be mostly research-based, uhm but those people to need higher doses of methylfolate-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm with the other thing with uh B12 is that it needs a- a transporter, a mover. So, lithium orotate, the trace mineral, not the psychotropic drug but, it helps uhm transport vitamin B12.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, very cool. I know you mentioned that on- on our last podcast we did together. That's very good. So we have this carbon-hydrogens, then we need all these nutrients, trimethylglycine or- or HCL, essentially betaines gonna have a lot of that in there. Our methylating B-Vitamins like B6, B9, B12, ideally, we're having uhm folate, not folic acid, we're having methylated or LMTHF folate, we also may be doing choline like B1, like riboflavin, thiamine, nycine as well.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, uhm all the B's, biotin, etc., uhm all need to be there for the methylation cycle to occur. Uhm, and, you know, you could- there are many polymorphisms that we won't give into that can affect the methylation cycle outside of MTHFR. Uhm, so, you know, it's really ab- about the environment and the terrain that determines whether these-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -polymorphisms expressed or not.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Alright, so let's go dive into your 3-prong approach. So, what does that look like and- and how do you apply that clinically with your patients?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So, basically, err, we've been taught that you know, okay, give more CoQ10, give more carnitine.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And let- let's say you have a ferrari, and the transmission's out. Putting more gasoline in the gas tank is not gonna help the-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -transmission. And that's what you're doing when you're just giving CoQ10 or carnitine. And that's okay uh, but you have to adjust the other aspects and one of them we mentioned earlier, and that's uh, protecting the mitochondria. How do we protect them? We make sure we have adequate glutathione, reduced glutathione, not oxidized glutathione, and uh optimal levels of SOD or superoxide dismutase.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Okay, got it.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, the 3-pronged approach is protect the mitochondria, the antioxidants, provide mitochondrial fuel, you know with L-carnitine, CoQ10 etc.-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: PQQ.
Dr. Tim Jackson: PQQ, NAD, uh nicotine ___[15:47]-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -a- all those things. And then the 3rd of uh aspect or 3rd uhm, prong of the approach is to repair the mitochondrial membranes. And so those get damaged from inflammation, and also certain pesticides and petrochemicals, and uhm, you can use different supplements uhm that have high doses of phospholipids, uhm, ___[16:14] in them to help remodel the mitochondria, and uh, you know, it's been studied in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, uhm to help the mitochondria for sure-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, so the 3 pronged approach, just to summarize is, protect the mitochondria with glutathione superoxide dismutase, repair the mitochondrial membranes with uhm NT factor energy, or uhm, uh group of phospholipids that are gonna rehab or rehabilitate mitochondrial membrane, and then provide mitochondrial fuel via CoQ10, carnitine, PQQ, NAD, etc.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. So, repair, protect, and fuel. So, protection is glutathione, antioxidants. Would curcumin also fall into that category too?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Curcumin, uhm helps to upregulate glutathione-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So I guess it could right 'cause glutathione's uh antioxidant. So, would it kinda have some protection qualities, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, absolutely. And because it lowers uh inflammatory markers-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uh that's gonna put less oxygenated stress on the mitochondria-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Good. Excellent-
Dr. Tim Jackson: -and-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -so that's the protection. Then on the fuel, that's like B-Vitamins, CoQ10, carnitine, PQQ and then with- with like the niagen or the- the nicotinamide compounds fit into that category?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh they- uh could uh potentially but I think of them more as uh mitochondrial fuel.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh that's more- yeah, fuel, that's in- in that fuel, yup. Correct?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And so, uhm you know, the- they can definitely help and you know, in the clinic we'd use uh IV-NAD, it's great for uh drug detox-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It burns though doesn't it?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, it should be between a 6- and 8-hour drip, and you have to do it 10 days consecutively, you can't miss a day. Uhm, and that can help for example people who'd take in the antibiotics that fall under the 4-Quinolone-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: [Crosstalk]
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Lot of damage.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, lot of damage. So, IV-NAD, coupled with the NT factor energy, uhm can help the mitochondria for sure.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then on the- so you have the repair side which is like a lot of the- so we have the protect which is lot of the antioxidants, the fuel is more of the nutrients we just mentioned, the NAD, the B-Vitamins and CoQ10, carnitine. And then repair, it was- it was- I'm sorry, protect, fuel and then repair. And the repair is gonna be more glutathione, and a more sulfur amino, correct?
Dr. Tim Jackson: So the repairs are gonna be more of the NT factor energy, the phospholipid complex-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Phospholipids. Okay, and then how-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What does that mean supplement wise? What supplements would you look for, and then what foods, what good phospholipids can we eat in our diet- consume in our diet that will help?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, well so, uh anything uh, like sunflower, lecithin, as a supplement-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -to the health but, there's actually a product called uh NT-factor energy-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, ___[19:15] helped developed it. And uh certain, you know, chemicals and pesticides can get lodged into the mitochondria. And according to him, uh the NT-factor energy can take up to a year that can help displace some of these chemicals from the mitochondria.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good, excellent. I love that! I mean, really good. Protect, fuel and then repair. And that makes a lot of sense. And then how are you applying this with your patients? So if someone comes into your clinic, are you just starting with diet and lifestyle changes first, uh what lab test are you doing, how does this plug into your clinical model when you work with patients?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, so, I mean, their- uh, actually the U.K. has some really good mitochondrial testing because of the work of Dr. Sarah Myhill. Uhm and I think the lab is called RED Labs. Uh, but it- you can measure various markers here, you know-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -cerum, CoQ10- [crosstalk], pyruvate, lactate, etc. Uh you can look at fatty acid markers on an organic acids test-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -if they're high, that means they're not-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk]
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. They're not- yes, not being transported into the into the mitochondria, you might need some L-carnitine. And the difference between L-carnitine and acetyl carnitine – acetyl carnitine can cross the blood brain barrier. And so it can work on neurotransmitters as well as uh mitochondrial health.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then carnitine's- like L-carnitine is more downstream, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you would use that to improve the carnitine shuttle and to help improve fatty acid oxidation and energy burning from fat, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And then kids, on the spectrum who have low muscle tone, uhm, you know we definitely use uh lot of carnitine, CoQ10, you know, the gold standard in traditional uhm mitochondrial uh disorders is the muscle biopsy. But you know, traditional medicine does a great job of finding things if aren't there on the extreme here, or extreme here, but most of the world exist on this continuum. And just because you're on that continuum doesn't mean you don't have it- an issue for it to be corrected.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we can also use carnitine too to help modulate thyroid hormones too, I mean, if you're on the hyper side or on the grave's or hyper side, carnitine is some really great modulatory effects, and also with the lithium orotate as well. So, 2 interesting mitochondrial compounds but also help with modulating high thyroid function.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Mm-hmm- mm-hmm. Absolutely. Definitely.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Alright, to continue walking everyone through your kind of how you would, you know, work up a patient and incorporate this 3-pronged approach.
Dr. Tim Jackson: So basically, the more systems that are involved in someone's symptom presentation, the more you should take uh mitochondrial dysfunction. And, you know, mitochondria- by making the mitochondria work better, everything in your body will work better.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Now off-air we were talking about uh, you know, the different, uh Kindle Store that I trained with an Austin Texas, you know he calls-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -an mitochondrial bucket.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, let's say you start uh today working on healing your mitochondria, you're not gonna notice all the benefit that you will 6 months down the road. Uh the first system that goes offline when the mitochondria are dysfunctional, is the nervous system. So, brain fog, fatigue, memory issues, etc. And that's one reason why the IV NAD issues for drug rehab because it helps kind of rehabilitate the brain and so those cravings for the drugs and withdrawals go down dramatically.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And what did you learn specifically from Kindle when you were down in Austin?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh methylation, you know, at that time back in 2012, you know, it was all uh checking bile titers, and using uh anti barrels, uh, and liquid boron for uhm cerebral folate deficiency, uhm, and the mitochondria at the time he wasn't as comprehensive uh with it, uhm but now he's gotten more so.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, interesting. Alright, next. What else?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, so, you know, outside of the 3-pronged approach, the way, you know, that I uhm look at the mitochondria and- and work with someone uhm with mitochondrial issues is to uh, you know, again, upregulate glutathione. Some people may not be able to tolerate glutathione the beginning-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then what happens? If that is the case and they can't even handle sulfur amino acids like methionine or cysteine or NAC or taurine or- I don't- m- maybe they had little taurine but what would you do? How would you incorporate those aminos which are tapered in, would you incorporate binders, what would you do?
Dr. Tim Jackson: So, I would look at the potential for SIBO, and the production of hydrogen sulfide gas. Uhm, I'd seen that happen a lot, uhm, you can also- Amy Yasko has a list of, you know, foods that are really high in sulfur, uhm, and so I would, you know, you might want go in a low sulfur diet for a period of time. Uhm, but basically, uhm using uh, like the ___[24:32]-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah molybdenum? Mm-hmm?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Molybdenum, yeah. That uh will help that CBS polymorphism work as well.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Nice.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And or facilitate that enzyme working better. Uh, so someone can't tolerate glutathione, uhm, you know, we use it uh, in lower doses, uh or we'll back off completely, open the drainage pathways to the body, make sure the biles are moving, we're supporting the kidneys and liver and lymphatic system, and then out again.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, what does that mean? Because obviously, I mean you need glutathione to detoxify it- it's a great antioxidant, right, it's a great protector of our uhm, our mitochondria. So, obviously we need it. So why does that mean like, do we have to just decrease it, doesn't that decrease our mitochondria's ability to be protected because it doesn't have the histones, right? So what happens? I mean, is it- is it kind of a short-term kind of mindset?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, yes. it's short term mindset for sure because you now- you definitely need it, but in people who are really toxic, uhm their elimination pathways are compromised, then, you know, they're not gonna be able to tolerate it. And-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So- so the reactions are because we're mobilizing too much crap? Or too much toxin essentially?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Typically, yes.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And so when you try to upregulate like the lymph, are we giving like certain gentle herbs that may upregulate the lymph or the detox just to kinda generally allow things to to flow better and not get excited, do we add in binders? What does that look like?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Drainage remedies- I use drainage remedies uhm, to support the lymphatic system. You can use things like coke root- red root-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, but also, you know, vibration plate, chi machines, mini rebounders to get the lymphatic system moving, dry skin brushing, uhm drainage remedies for sure for the kidneys, liver, uhm and lymphatic system.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. ___[26:25] is great, I've used it on my wife uh before she had a- almost little bit of mastitis, breastfeeding and that works really well, it really opens things up, I love ___[26:33], that's great.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It's very good. Yeah, so, in general, Amy Yasko has the low sulfur diet, we'll put the links in for the Amy Yasko diet. So we kinda keep some of the sulfur down, we made you what some breath testing to look at hydrogen sulfide, and- and why would that be a problem? What's happening with that SIBO or that hydrogen sulfide overgrowth that is affecting glutathione or making us more s- uh- sensitive to sulfur amino acids?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, uh, hydrogen sulfide is a mitochondrial inhibitor.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Aah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And, so it basically puts the body in a state of torpor, or energy conservation. So-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great! Torker?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Torpor. T-O-R-P-O-R. So like-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, okay. Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, yeah. And that was the way I was you know, described to me but uh, you know, you can lower body temperature-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -decreased energy production-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -cause major brain fog, uh, as far as the breath testing goes, it can be helpful but 25% of the time you get a false negative.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you wanna do conventional stool- or you wanna do some more cutting stool testing to look for bacteria overgrowth?
Dr. Tim Jackson: That uhm- on the organic acids test, I think it's 21 hydroxyphenyl acetate-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh that's the marker that can be indicative of SIBO, uhm you know, if you see that, uhm, and-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Phenyl acetate is interesting 'cause that's also an oxidative stress marker too.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Right.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And uhm, yes, so, the uh, SIBO. If you had concentration for any period of time or extended period of time, the only way SIBO can develop is when there is a lack of peristalsis or decreased peristalsis-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -so you get a migration of the bacteria that belong in the large intestines, moving up to the small intestines which should be relatively sterile. And so uhm, you know, err- you wanna correct the large intestines, you wanna optimize stomach acid, uhm, bile production, digestive enzymes and uh, you know, you can use herbs or antibiotics to treat the SIBO, but if you don't improve peristalsis, it's just gonna keep coming back.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Now there are a lot of patients that are doing a lot of DNA testing these days for 23 of May, what are the big DNA Markers you would look at to say, hey there may be a mitochondrial issue, or even maybe an issue with detoxifying? What would you look at genetically, what are the top 3 or 5 things you would look at and highlight and say, “Hey this- this may lead you into faking there's an issue”?
Dr. Tim Jackson: So GSTM, uh, for glutathione.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, you know, we can measure uh glutathione levels. Uhm, it's best to measure the reduced-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm to oxidize ratio 'cause some people can't recycle glutathione. Uhm, but glutathio- any polymorphisms in the glutathione pathway, that's gonna affect detoxification, uhm, and on mitochondria, uhm, and polymorphisms and the superoxide dismutase pathway. Uh, that's gonna affect it, uh, polymorphism called endufs, uh N-D-U-F-S, uhm that affects uhm fatty acid transport-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -into mitochondria. Uhm there's one called ACAT, A-C-A-T, and that can affect the conversion of protein, and fats into Acetyl-CoA, and so that's a great limiting step in energy production.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, uhm Vitamin B1, uhm, can be helpful in facilitating uhm or bypassing that polymorphism in particular-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, and then there is one called SLC, there's a whole family of them. SLC uh 16-A1, uhm and there are others uhm but it has- those also had to do with fatty acid transport, uhm and so, you know, that's where you could look at uh blood or seer models of L-carnitine.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Would MTHFR fit into this or COMT fit into this at all?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh it would it in the sense that MTHFR affects the levels of CoQ10 and carnitine-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: [Crosstalk] lower levels so you gotta make sure those are higher?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: COMT, how does that affecting things?
Dr. Tim Jackson: So COMT uhm basically uh it affects- so it can create uh elevated uh catecholamines, and that can create a stress response in the body, and uhm, you know, long term sympathetic dominant stress response will turn the mitochondria.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Can that also deplete dopamine too?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Uhm, and so, well what it does is, people with COMT, they don't metabolize it as quickly depending on the exact COMT uhm, but dopamine, norepinephrine epinephrine tend to be higher, uhm, and usually norepinephrine epinephrine are more of an issue, uh, but yeah, it can uh for sure affect uh the mitochondria indirectly through that mechanism.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great. So let's re-summarize that, we have our COMT and our MTHFR, right? Now you mentioned the endoxin and the B- B1 importantly, with the MTHFR you me can- you mentioned the carnitine and the CoQ10-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: With the COMT we're working on what decreasing sympathetic stress, breathing, not over exercising, good- good food, is there anything you’d want or also highlight to help reduce COMT?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, making sure that uh you check your estrogen levels-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -uhm, and man, you know, checking estradiol, and women checking-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -E1, E2, and E3-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, and measuring that compared to progesterone, uhm, but that can uh, certainly affect uhm or be product of COMT.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great. And then the other 3 again? The first 3 that you mentioned, I wanted- just make sure we have a good summary.
Dr. Tim Jackson: So the ACAT, A-C-A-T-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, affects uhm the production of Acetyl-CoA which is the first step in the Krebs cycle-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Krebs cycle, yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -and so vitamin B1, thiamine can be used for that-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, other polymorphisms like ___[33:03], uh FADS, uh those affect uh an SLC, affect the transportation of fatty acid into the mitochondria-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so extra carnitine may be needed-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm and then the polymorphisms that you know may interfere with protection of the mitochondria are GSTN or any polymorphisms in the glutathione pathway, along with uh SOD polymorphisms-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -and you know, to upregulate those, uhm we can use again molecular hydrogen, we can use uhm things like ___[33:42] glutathione or uh liposomal glutathione as well.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If someone wants to learn more about interpreting these genetic tests, do you have a- a resource or reference that you like to go to?
Dr. Tim Jackson: I wish I had a comprehensive uh resource that I can tell you to go to that cover them all, uh unfortunately I don't. Uhm I mean, there might be someone somewhere, you know there are new apps coming out all the time, and all they're doing you know, it might save- this is oh, a neurotransmitter profile, this is a hormone profile, they're just reporting those polymorphisms that affect that particular area of the body, it's not a separate test.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. Is there one source you could point us to?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, mthfrsupport.com, I helped them design their report, uhm I've done a- if you google my name Dr. Tim Jackson I've done a ton of articles, interviews, podcasts, summits on methylation MTHFR, uhm so that should be a lot of free content available if you google my name.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Excellent. Dr. Tim if listeners wanna find more about you and wanna work with you, what's your website? How can they reach out?
Dr. Tim Jackson: healyourbody.O-R-G, so healyourbody.org, or my email, I know it's long, but it's drtim- D-R-T-I-M-0-7-29-81, and you know-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh my God, we gotta shorten that up to like office.healyourbody.org or whatever [chuckles]-
Dr. Tim Jackson: I know.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We gotta shorten that up. Alright, we'll put the links below so if you don't- if you don't recall and don't remember Dr. Tim's info, we'll put it below so it's a one-click option for you all. Dr. Tim, it's been awesome. We had 2 other podcasts for Dr. Ji- Dr. Tim, so feel free and go back and review those podcasts, great uhm treasure trove of information. Dr. Tim, thank you so much for being a part of the podcast. And you have a phenomenal day.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Thank you Dr. Justin, you the same.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thanks doc!
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