Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Dr. Tim Jackson dive into a stimulating discussion about mitochondria, the enzyme MTHFR, genetic testing, and mycotoxin. Join them and pick up some valuable information as Dr. Tim Jackson shares his knowledge and expertise on gene SNPs, factors that affect them, the supplements he recommends, as well as the approach he implements to create a positive impact on someone’s health.
Learn about the mitochondria’s function and discover its connection to the Kreb’s cycle and electron transport chain, both of which are naturally occurring chemical reactions in our bodies. Know and understand the different mitochondria-related issues like infections, low iron and low B vitamins. Get valuable insight on how these issues are tested, including the diet, nutrients and supplements to support the mitochondria. And lastly, gain helpful information about mycotoxin and find out different ways to prevent and get rid of them.
In this episode, we cover:
4:11 Mitochondria
15:20 Bacterial infections
21:50 Iron and B12 issues
27:10 Glutathione
35:41 Gene SNPs (MTHFR, APO, PON1)
49:13 Mycotoxins
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey there! It’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. We got Dr. Tim Jackson back on the show. Really uh, excited to dig in to some MTHFR, some genetic testing. Maybe we’ll even talk about some mycotoxins. Who knows if we’ll have enough time to get it all. Doctor Tim, how we doing today?
Dr. Tim Jackson: I'm doing great, Evan Justin. How you doing’ sir?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wonderful, wonderful, man. Glad that we’re in touch and your back on the show.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, it’s fine. It should be a good time today.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well let’s dig in, man. What's new on your radar and functional medicine land?
Dr. Tim Jackson: You know, I’ve just been delving deeper and deeper into mitochondria. And you know- I am always up for myself whether through research, dealing with clients and patients. You know, what I can do to make everything else work better. And you know- almost always I find myself saying, “Well, make mitochondria work better.” And so, looking at different therapies to, you know- protect mitochondria, to rehabilitate the cell membrane, uhm to make sure it has no optimal fatty acid composition-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm
Dr. Tim Jackson: To make sure environmental toxic load is reduced as much as possible so that the Krebs in TCA cycle can go on. And in making sure the two rate-limiting factors oxygen and ubiquinol or CoQ10 are present in adequate amounts. Uhm- one just quick aside, is that even low-level sleep apnea will affect your mitochondria negatively.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Alright. So we need oxygen. Sleep apnea is basically that delay where you just stop breathing while sleeping. And with sleep apnea, typically inflammations gonna be driving that. Is that correct?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And it’s a self perpetuating type cycle where inflammation driving it want that- wants that inflammation gets going uhm- it has a self-perpetuating mechanism especially- I know this is a $64,000 word- cytokine or inflammatory molecules-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: interlude six.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So true coz I notice every now and then I'll have like a little sleep apnea episode like where I wake just kinda like gasping for air.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And it’s typically at nights where I have like a glass of wine or maybe have something I shouldn't have. I noticed that food allergen response really has an effect on my airway and I wake up with a hypoxic type of you know, gasping episode. So I know that inflammation and even food allergens can be a subtle you know, causative factor for that inflammation.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. Anything that uhm- creates inflammation you know or contribute to the burns and turns out there, but what we called that, our static load-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, stress bucket
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah- your stress bucket, exactly.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bingo.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so you know, we might be someone that we you know, label as a hothead or they can’t tolerate stress. They may have a ton of physiological imbalances and all their ATP energy being diverted to that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. I always tell patients like yeah, physical, chemical, and emotional stressors. Physical could be too much or too little exercise. It could be chronic pain from an injury. You also have the chemical stressors, whether it's food or infections or metals, or mold, or food allergens, or low stomach acid or etc. And then you have obviously, the emotional stress- relationships, finances, uhm- family, work. All of those stressors are like a little ball that go into that stress bucket. When that bucket starts overflow, that's where your kinda allostatic is tapped out. And that's where symptoms tend to tend to occur. And then typically allostatic, allopathic medical world, symptoms = drug prescriptions. Then drug prescriptions have side effects, which cause more symptoms. So you're in this vicious cycle where medicine actually tries to solve allostatic load problems or stress bucket problems by actually giving you more stress. And so in functional medicine world, we’re trying to actually take those stress balls out of the bucket, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. The more stressors that we can take uhm- off our bucket, you know- we wanna try and eliminate as many stressors humanly possible. Uhm- and the ones that we can't completely eliminate, we wanna certainly mitigate as much as possible.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. And let's go back into the mitochondria because basically the mitochondria is kinda the powerhouse of ourselves. It's- you have what's called the Krebs cycle, which is part of the mitochondria we you’re generating ATP, you're generating these uhm- reducing agents call FADH 2 and NADH. And you’re basically grabbing hydrogen molecules-these electron to then bring those over to the electron transport chain so we can generate more energy. Would you mind talking more about the mitochondria and just how it connects into the Krebs cycle, the electron transport chain, and even uh, even glycolysis, too?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So when we think about mitochondria, we always talk about, “Oh, those are batteries of the cells”. They provide your energy source, your energy currency, the ATP. But what we've learned in the past 10 years is that they do so much more than that. Uhm, I actually have a 400 and something page e-book on mitochondria.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow
Dr. Tim Jackson: -that goes into details. And if, like I said it’s one of those dots that you know, you can connect pretty much every illness out there uhm- to some degree to mitochondrial dysfunction. And producing energy you know, fats, carbs, proteins, get broken down and go into the energy producing, the Krebs cycle. And uhm- you get oxy dephosphorylation and fatty acid burning in the mitochondria. But mitochondria- some of the other roles that they participate in, one is self sensing and signaling. So uhm- you know, controlling how they'll wind up in the age of extracellular matrix for that little area that surround the groups of cells. Uhm, it's important for growth factor uhm- sensing, uhm- immune function because a lot of times what happens is you know, people may test the account or the amount of immune cells that they don't pass the activity of them. And a lot of our means, those require a lot of ATP. And uh, your immune function may not be working very well because you don't have enough energy to heal. Healing takes a ton of energy. And so you know, if we have a lot of other stressors, the ATP or the energy currency is gonna be going down that pathway.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Now, how does the electron transport chain and the Krebs cycle connect in with the mitochondria?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So the mitochondria have an inner mitochondrial membrane and an outer mitochondrial membrane. And you have certain fatty acids in on those membranes. And what happens is that we inherit our mitochondrial DNA from our mom and you can have mutations in mitochondrial DNA. But more often, you have what we call mitochondriopathies, which is just a fancy term for damaged mitochondria.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so anything that damages the mitochondria, and the most common things are environmental pollutants, persistent organic pollutants-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -and disrupting chemicals. Or we can have what Dr. Alex Vasquez calls uhm- a microbial mitochondriopathy.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmm
Dr. Tim Jackson: So you have an infection, maybe you go through a period of stress, a virus gets reactivated. Well, that inflammatory cascade that's produced, even if you don't know the name, you felt it before, that’s called a cytokine storm.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And those inflammant there’s prone, inflammatory cytokines and anti-inflammatory cytokines. And when you have a lot of stealth pathogens or microbes and bugs build up in your body uh, there’s a constant low-grade level of inflammation. And our mitochondria are extremely susceptible to free radical damage. And that's important point because the two antioxidants that we need to protect us or protect our mitochondria are glutathione which you know, we both love-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah
Dr. Tim Jackson: And you and superoxide dismutase. So if you have- I know you mentioned uhm you know, genetic- genetic testing but if you have certain uhm- polymorphisms which is like a minor version of a mutation, you may not make enough glutathione superoxide dismutase, or you may not recycle them to the reduced state which is how our body needs to use them. So uh, that's incredibly uh, important because like I said, the mitochondria are very susceptible to oxidative damage, and if you don’t have those two antioxidants there to protect it, uhm- it's really open to enemy fire.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally makes sense. And so, I’m just kinda comin’ back here for the energy production part. So part of the ATP part is, is through the uh, Krebs cycle as well as the electron transport chain, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly. So electron transport chain is five complexes. And they basically play hot potato-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah
Dr. Tim Jackson: -with electrons. And uh, an important point for people to understand here is that, this is really biophysically driven more than biochemically driven. And what I mean by that is that your body uses photons and protons uhm- and light to uhm- create energy and increase ATP in the mitochondria. And at any time we can uh, tweak or uh, alter biophysical status of the cell or cellular machinery, then we can control multiple biochemical reactions.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. And how about the Krebs cycle, as well? Krebs Cycle’s the same thing. We’re producing all these reducing agents to help basically bring those electrons into the electron transport chain, so they can be kinda tossed back and forth, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Exactly. So you know, protein, carbs, and fats get broken down into a single way so they can go into the Krebs cycle. And uhm- one other thing that’s uh- it’s just on the side you know, we talked about L- carnitine and you know, the benefit to have of carnitine.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, it transports fatty acid from the cell, the cytoplasm of cell into the mitochondria where you can uhm- burn fat and through process of beta
oxidation.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.
Dr. Tim Jackson: So if you’re deficient in L-carnitine, uhm- you’ll certainly be fatigued because you won’t be able to burn fatty acids.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it. And that's called the carnitine shuttle. And I appreciate, your- your biochem background. You got a Biochem degree from NC State, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm – NC State, definitely not. Wake Forest, the Wake Forest.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wake Forest. The Wake Forest, okay. Got it. Very cool. Oh, I appreciate Biochem. Brings me back to my undergrad days. I love it. The carnitine shuttle’s so important because basically your body is using carnitine, which is made from two amino acids, methionine and lysine. And it basically shuttles fat into the mitochondria so the fat can be burned up through that betaoxidiation pathway. Now, in my Biochem textbook that I have on the- the shelf behind me here, it was really interesting coz it even said in the biochem textbook that these amino acids methionine and lysine could be deficient in a vegetarian-based diet. So I’m like, this is quite interesting coz the sulfur amino acids are harder to get in these vegetarian diets. So really important. I see a lot of my sicker patients, especially faced with mitochondrial issues, aren't getting the right fats, aren’t getting the right enough of these high quality sulfur amino acids, especially the ones that may include glutathione, glycine, glutamine, cysteine. And you mentioned earlier that you have to build that membrane, too which we know that the high-quality good saturated fats are gonna be building blocks. So I went off on a tear there but fats, amino acids, and the amino acids for glutathione, which all play into this whole mitochondrial thing, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. So uhm- you know, we can burn uhm- you know, fat and protein. Uhm- you know, the carb advocates say you know, “we have to have you know, glucose or sugar.” But you know, people in the biochemistry, that's not true. But yet, different environmental toxic can- and nutrient deficiencies can basically block the conversion of one metabolite of the Krebs cycle to another. So-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.
Dr. Tim Jackson: So you know, you have uhm- a few CoA, pyruvates, all those type of molecules malatase or malate. And the different compounds, metabolites like oxalites, etc. The enzymes that convert them may be impacted negatively by environmental toxicity.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes. Totally. And we need all these various nutrients to pump that Krebs cycle up. I mean, some of my, some of the nutrients that I put in my mitochondrial support, called mitochondrial synergy, is obviously the B vitamins are really important, L-carnitine as we already mentioned is really important. I also like Creatine.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I like Alpha Lipoic acid, I like a lot of the Krebs cycle intermediary nutrients like uhm, malic acid, succinic acid, uh the-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. Malic acid is good for aluminum detox as well.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, very cool. Also, I do a little Resveratrol-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -which we know is really good for the electron transport chain and then uhm Alpha Lipoic acid even some Curcumin as well.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, yeah. Curcumin is one of my go to- probably my first go to supplement for mitochondrial help. And it's more of an indirect effect where it turned down the volume on enough kappa beta.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhm
Dr. Tim Jackson: Which is the uh, molecule coding or trying to read our pro-inflammatory genes.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So if we we’re trying to get someone's diet dialed in, what would that diet look like to that average patient?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- You know, I'm gonna tell people to avoid gluten and dairy in general. Some people they get stressed out over what they’re gonna eat and so I don't focus too much on the gluten cross-reactive foods. Uhm- but I try to restore and calm down inflammation in the gut lining first and repair the tight gap junction in the microvilli. And uh, I use the product- And again, I'm not connected to this product, but restore, restore4life.com. And it works really well in terms of healing the gut lining, but also helping to increase your overall micro biodiversity. And you know, we don't typically think about the gut mitochondria together, but particular compounds that are released from bacteria in the gut. One is very inflammatory and it’s called lipopolysaccharide.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And it increases systemic inflammation greatly. And it turned on those inflammatory genes. So curcumin goes in, and it says, “Nope, must turn that knob back down.” And that's why I like Curcumin coz it works on so many different levels of law as well as having antimicrobial properties.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What are the big bacterial infections that you're seeing in your clinic that are driving up the LPS? One of the things I'm seeing with under specific stool test, we’re seeing a lot of H pylori. I'm seeing a lot of Citrobacter, a lot of Pseudomonas aeruginosa.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A lot of Klebsiella. Those are the big things that I'm seeing. What are you seeing, Doc?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Those are the exact same ones that I’m seeing. I’d also add in BlastocysticHominis.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yup. Parasite for sure. Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah and uhm- you know, I’d do the PCR testing which I’d have good results with.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Which one? GI map?
Dr. Tim Jackson: It’s uh, the DRG labs.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I use both. I run them both side-by-side.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And uhm- you know, I wasn’t happy when Genova merged with MetaMetrics and they changed one of their pages.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Terrible.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And you know, the price is pretty high, but I like DRG labs. I think it's you know, more economical. Uhm-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The problem with that is-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes, those are the common infections that I’m seeing.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: You know, along with of course, you know, Candida. But one important point to kinda make about gut health is that one thing I see people forgetting is that they don't reboot their secretory IGA.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And that’s the imm- mucosal immune system and the gut lining, the lining of the lung, the nasal passages, etc. And if you just go in, and kill off these pathogens are uhm- bad bacteria, they’re gonna come back if you don't create an environment that is not conducive to their living.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. And you’re doing uh- increase sacamai polarity to help bring up the IGA post uh- infection removal?
Dr. Tim Jackson: I don't anymore. Occasionally, I do uhm- actually a chiropractor colleague showed me a study that look at those with leaky gut, and you know- some type or some level of neuro-immune syndrome. And he showed that you know- with leaky gut, if you don’t heal below first, taking something like uh-___may actually provoke an autoimmune type reaction. Now the study wasn't very big but not the principle that people forget is that you know, if you cut your forearm, you’re gonna wanna wipe it off and put in uh you know, Band-Aid on to prevent pathogen entry.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Same type of thing in the gut you know, if you have a leaky gut, you start supplementing with probiotics. Yet some probiotics you know, heal the gut lining but it can lead through and create a huge inflammatory reaction.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I think it’s really important you have a sequence on how you treat infections. In my clinic, we always remove the foods first, like you mentioned. We replace enzymes and acids that’ll help digestion. We repair the hormonal system, whether it's thyroid imbalance, adrenal, or female, or male hormone imbalances. We support the gut lining nutrients. Then we remove the infections. Then we repopulate probiotics. Then we retest. And I find that water tends to work the best. But I agree that you really have to do all the other things ahead of time so you have the best bang for your bucks when it is time to put the probiotics back in the system.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. I just ran into a lot of people that’d been taken probiotics for years, even good quality probiotics.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And most people think that they just kinda go down there, and set up shop. Uhm, but they don't realize it’s more of a transitory interaction with the gut associated lymphoid tissue. And that's why you need to constantly you know, have the intake of bacteria because our ancestors that's what they were exposed to you know, based on the soil.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. That's why you do a lot of fermented foods. I recommend once my patients are really good and cleaned up, I typically throw a bottle of probotics at once a quarter, as long as they’re getting in good probiotics daily whether it's with kimchi, or sauerkraut, or Bobby's fermented pickles, or a low sugar kombucha, not the high sugar uh, alternatives that are- I might as well call them, soda.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, I agree with you.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now on the DRG, though they’re not testing the individual bacteria molecules, though. I mean I’m seeing that they’re looking at H- pylori, though look at like some of the transient food allergen or food uhm, poisoning bacteria like Campylobacter or Shigella. But how are you looking at the other ones that I mentioned. The Klebsiella, the Citrobacter, etc.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, I’ll have to go back and look. But I thought that DRG tested for Citrobacter. I could be wrong on that one. But I do- to answer your question, uhm- provide- I go about addressing the gut similar to what you do. But uhm- I provide some broad-spectrum antimicrobial support. One of my favorites, which I know you’ve heard of, is uhm-Parsitan.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And uhm- So you know- again, a lot of these pathogens, like you mentioned, very specific supplementation. Uhm- but you know, some you can eradicate with you know, broad-spectrum biofilm busting and then antimicrobial.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. What’s your favorite biofilm buster?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, I use InterFase Plus.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Klaire Labs
Dr. Tim Jackson: From uh, Klaire Labs.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And uh, I have pretty good results with that. Occasionally, I’ll have someone uhm, like I have this guy who’s a yoga teacher and help coach and he's been doing detox, and this type of stuff for years. And he took uh, just the kind InterFase plus by itself had a very negative reaction. And because he has you know, such a high metal load underneath that biofilm.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, the InterFase Plus I think is a EDTA chelating compound that so of the biofilms will use led in some heavy metals as a kind of a composition for that it so-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh, some of the biofilms will use lead and some heavy metals as a kinda composition for that shield that hold up, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly. So they’re using calcium, magnesium-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: You know that’s a – uhm- a great way for them to hide from the immune cells. Uhm- you know- on top of the bacteria doing the quorum sensing and exchanging DNA, people don’t realize exactly how smart they really are. Uhm- in terms of kinda manipulating our immune system.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmm. And just to bring you back a little bit, but you made a couple of really good points early. You talked about oxygen.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And because oxygen is really important because we have various anemias, whether it's an iron-based anemia, or a B vitamin based anemia. Both are really important for maturation, maturing healthy red blood cells, and helping red blood cells to carry oxygen. So we can’t carry oxygen and we can’t care nutrition, our mitochondria for the most part, screwed. So how are you addressing in your patients optimal iron and/or B12 levels. What are you looking at to assess that?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, you know I think it’s one of those things like, if we just started with a client right now, and we tested for food sensitivities, they you know- light up like a Christmas tree-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, of course.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- and so I tend to work on the gut to improve our iron absorption, uhm- increase vitamin C levels-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- to look at those things and look you know- the binding proteins as well. One thing uh- that I learned from Dietrich Klinghardt, he talks about uh- in different pathogens have a different effect on it. But at different stages of an infection, it may drive up creatine.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And at some point may drive down creatine. So you know, I felt to- that was kinda interesting. So I do see a correlation with a lot of pathogens. Uhm- you know, that uh, you know, correlates with these issues as well.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Yeah, my clinic typically the big three things that I see their driving iron issues are gonna be vegetarian diets.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Number two: female hormone issues that are driving excessive menstruation or hemorrhage.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Or number three: is just gut malabsorption. They have low stomach acid. They can't ionize minerals, or they have leaky gut and malabsorption. And they just can't break down some of the, the heme- uhm- compounds in the food. So those are the big three that I see. And we try to work on all of those. Uhm- what are you seeing regarding the female hormone issues and low iron?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- you know a lot of times, I see, you know low thyroid function.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah
Dr. Tim Jackson: And with low iron, and obviously you know, I think I’m learning expression from Apex but they talk about, if you don't think iron and you don't fix insulin, you know- nothing else will work.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s a deal-
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, you know, I try to look at you know, the transport proteins uhm- yeah, as well as like what you said, overall absorption and gut health and making sure that people don't realize how energy intense breaking down protein is. And is a lot of times you know, it's good beneficial to give the client. I found at least the uhm, essential amino acids on an empty stomach and luckily I just need a steak. I don't realize that you know- what we’re giving them, hand delivering the bioavailable version of what so many reactions in their body uhm-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I agree. The thermic effect food on high protein compounds like steak is 30 to 50%, meaning- so 50% of the calories that the energy in that food just gets used up in breaking it down. So when you get free form amino acids, you're basically giving 100% of it versus half of the getting used to pay the bill to break it down, so to speak.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Exactly, exactly.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And how- go ahead, yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Go ahead. No, I’m sorry.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And how are you looking at – how you diagnose B vitamin, like B12 issues, or low iron issues? What test are you running to assess that?
Dr. Tim Jackson: I will run it all on like the urinary iron binding capacity.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: York and total iron binding capacity.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm, B vitamin issues uhm- you know, if someone can do at least what LabCorp was doing I think they still are on RBC D12 and RBC folate-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh
Dr. Tim Jackson: If not, the lab in Germany. They used to have a branch in New Jersey, but they closed Health Diagnostics Research Institute and do a whole, like real time methylation panel that shows what your methylation pathways are doing with the nutrients you have at that specific time slot versus the 23andMe, which is just the genetic or epigenetic blueprint.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so, yeah. Uhm- in terms of iron, I look at gut health and think of that nature. And sorry, what was the last part of your question?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: B12. Any other B12 markers?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So I work at you know, the NMA and things like that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: From the studies I’ve read like, for example, like many other markersuhm- B12 levels in most Asian countries are much, much higher than here. And there been no documented cases of adverse reactions to B12. The only thing I've seen clients is you know, if they have a polymorphism called COMT-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Sometimes too many metal donors a methyl group is just the carbon with three hydrogen.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so all the methylation reactions, given to many metal donors they can get overstimulated.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it, man. Very good information. So just kinda recapping here just for all the listeners at home. I know were going really kinda down the rabbit hole. So we’re talking about the mitochondria, powerhouse of the cell. We need healthy fats in our diet. We need to keep the food allergens out. We need to make sure we’re infection-free so the LPS isn’t poisoning our mitochondria. We need healthy nutrients, B vitamins curcumin, house of the nuclear factor kappa beta, good hormones, good absorption, good iron levels, good B12. Is there anything you wanna add to that summary for optimal mitochondrial function for our listeners, Tim?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. It’s just glutathione again.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Because it’s most the depressed on its ability to detoxify. But people don't realize that it's an- a natural antiviral that you have to have it for gut healing to occur. Uhm- it’s extremely important in immune function. It’s extremely important in terms of mitochondrial protection. Uhm- and that again, with the other antioxidant superoxide dismutase, that I’ve mentioned. Now without getting too much into Biochemistry, and instead of kinda just chasten those individual markers, we can take different nutrients or nutraceuticals that increase in RF, too.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Which activates all of your antioxidant enzymes, and turns off lot of the pro-oxidant uh, signaling it's going on. And so things that would activate that or things like sulforaphaneuhm, possibly turmeric and resveratrol. But uhm, thinking more of what can I do to affect all the different symptoms and systems, is kind of the approach that I take.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. When you try to improve glutathione levels, do you try to just give some of the amino acids so the patient to make the glutathione? Or do you give the actual liposomal glutathione? How do you differentiate the two?
Dr. Tim Jackson: I use a lot of times, the neurobiological transdermal.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, got it.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- glutathione. Sometimes I'll use the Apex Energetics Super OxiCell which has glutathione and superoxide dismutase. Uhm- but overall uhm- sometimes I will give people N-acetyl cysteine-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: But for some reason, and you made delicious light on this for me, I’ve searched for answer for years- But some people including myself will respond negatively and have a huge metal stir up when they take N-acetyl cysteine but if I take glutathione, I'm fine. Which doesn't make sense. NAC is the precursor to glutathione. And I've had this and a small subset of people like I said, including myself, back many years ago when I took uh- N-acetyl cysteine, you know- I had a major yeast flare and uh- you know, I had a metallic taste in my mouth, all sorts of negative things.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The only thing I could think of clinically as the NAC is a pretty strong biofilm buster.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s some kinda biofilm release with the high amount of NAC. I’d be curious if it happens with cysteine uh- or glycine versus just NAC by itself.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Doesn’t’ happen with glycine.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So could be a biofilm issue. Wouldn’t be surprised.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Excellent. Well thank you for shedding some light on that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And no problem. And you mentioned the nerve stuff. The nerve uhm- 2 inhibitors there. I think it’s the nerve 2. Is it an activator- no inducers. Nerve 2 inducers that you mentioned. Green tea is also a big one. Milk thistle, pomegranate, even green coffee, ginkgo, olive leaf and then you mentioned the sulforaphane which will be primarily found in your cruciferous vegetables.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, exactly. And uh, you know- we’re talking about these acronyms, enough kappa beta and RS2.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: But the take-home message for people is that, instead of chasing you know- just one marker and take one supplement for that, if we can try and control what genes are being read, we can have a lot more impact on someone's health.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. So let's segue to the gene portion here. I mean, talked to then Ben Lynch last year in one of the conference that I went to. And he was talking about that everyone's looking too much of the genes, do so much of the genes or the junk DNA. There’s only a couple of genes that really matter. Obviously his big focus is on the MTHFR gene, which is the methylenetetrahyrdofolatereductase gene SNP. What genes are- do you think are the most important? Coz you know when we look at these gene pages, whether it's like genetic genie or livewello, you get like 50 pages. It’s super overwhelming and then one page says this, and the other page contradicts the other. So how the heck do you make sense of it all?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well first of all, I’m gonna try to go back to my biochemistry background. You know, when all my you know- friends and everything are ready to get out and finish biology I was really getting into it coz I’m like, if you understand how the cell works, then you can really understand the body.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And uhm- so that- that’s you know, I kinda approach things. It’s looking at the biochemistry. Uhm- but you know, in order to do that you have to test for active biomarkers. So biomarker it can be anything. It can be like a physical measurement like blood pressure, or it can be your iron level, or your testosterone level, or any marker tested through urine sample, uhm- or a stool sample. And so uhm, you know- that's kinda how I approach uh- thing. That is to look out- take into account the polymorphisms. But I don't sit there and add them up and say, “okay this, that” It’ll drive yourself crazy, you know.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And we have hundreds of thousands of polymorphisms. You know, what are we gonna do when the report reaches 200 pages? 300 pages? I mean- the situation situation where you can't see the forest for the trees and uh- I’m probably one of the people to blame for that coz is around 2010-2011 I started really talking about MTHFR after learning about it from Kendall Stewart who’s in Austin, Texas.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: But I look at uh- GSTM which is glutathione S-transferase.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm GSTP, SOD which stands for superoxide dismutase.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Then when someone have the polymorphism, just so we’re clear, it may mean that the enzyme that tho- gene or that gene is coding for uhm- speed up or they may slow down.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And it just depends on the specific polymorphism and uhm- you know, you have to look. So like one polymorphism is called CBS. It’s Cystathionine Beta Synthase or Synthatase. And uh- one of them uhm- speeds up the enzyme whereas another one slows it down. So you may have some canceling out of effects. But what you’re doing is looking in a blueprint. And I call them biochemical hiccups or potential biochemical hiccups. In your physiology, and it’s meant to empower people because then you can bypass you know, these genetic hiccups. Uhm, so to listen to the others that I’ve looked at uhm- one is the APOE, which plays a role-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Cholesterol
Dr. Tim Jackson: -in health as well as your ability to tolerate a Paleolithic type diet.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: It also plays a significant role in your ability to detoxify.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so uh- it really uh- I take a case by case but I tell people, you know- get the printer in me done, fine $9, a one time deal you never have to redo it. But in order to figure out what's going on, like real time we need to do OATs test.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: – or methylation panel from that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bingo.
Dr. Tim Jackson: – plus all the lab. And you know, what people understand is that you- you may not have any copies of MTHFR, that you can have what I call a functional polymorphism where those pathways are not working because of too much oxidative stress, or environmental chemicals, or nutrient deficiencies.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Malabsorption, gut issues.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Exactly. So lot of times people will say, “okay why are we working on methylation?” I’m like, “We are- We’re working on gut health first, which is gonna help unload the liver. And you know, if you have too many like a lipopolysaccharide-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.
Dr. Tim Jackson: It can back up phase 1 detox. So you know, the first step is really working on the things you have to work no matter what your goal is. And so whether someone wants to be pro athlete, have more energy to their kids or grand kids you know- their gut has to function well, just like their adrenal and thyroid.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very Cool. So let’s do a quick rapid fire and just go to the top 10 SNPs. What’s number one?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Okay. Uh- I would probably say uh- MTHFR
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. And we have the-
Dr. Tim Jackson: And then there’s multiple versions of it.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Basically, to give people a summary uhm- it affects glutathione production, the production of DNA and RNA, production of myelin that coats our nerves, uhm- the production of neurotransmitters, uhm- and growth factors. And then after that, I would list probably APOE. Then I would probably list the glutathione-related polymorphisms.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And the superoxide dismutase polymorphism. Uhm then I would probably look at uh- the DDR.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup
Dr. Tim Jackson: Which the vitamin D receptor and I would include in there too the BCMO polymorphisms, which prevent the conversion of uhm- beta-carotene into retinoic acid.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And so- then you have to use you know, a more bioavailable form of vitamin A. And you know, people they’re so focused on Vitamin D, they don’t know that Vitamin A is really important for thyroid help and immune function, and gut health. Uhm- so you know, those are the ones that I really focus on. You know, if research comes up tomorrow- Oh, another one that I forgot is PON1, P-O-N 1.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: At- uh, greatly affects your ability to detoxify certain environmental chemicals. So someone has to be a lot stricter with their dirty dozen clean 15 beatings.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Especially if they have a glutathione polymorphism on top of it because you know, there- didn't have such a reduced capability of detoxifying.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Alright. So we have our MTHFR. We have the APO: APOa1-2. We have the PON1. We have the COMT. We have the glutathione. We have the VDR, the vitamin D receptor. Does that sound about right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yup. That sounds good to me.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And I just wanna make sure the listeners really understand coz the big one that's out there is the MTHFR.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I'll just break it down here for a second. We have the C67787. We have heterozygous or homozygous; second we have the C67787. We have heterozygous or homozygous. Heterozygous is you have-
Dr. Tim Jackson: T70 and A2198C. Yup.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. A2198C, correct. And the big one is, I think the C is the bigger one of four. And four homozygous in that, that’s an 80% reduction. If for hetero, works only a 40% reduction. And it’s –
Dr. Tim Jackson: More of this- have affect different things-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And again, you know, if you get the report from MTHFR support, they have so many forms of MTHFR. But the two lucky that had been most researched are A1298C.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup
Dr. Tim Jackson: And the- you know, you hear about the C677T because it can lead cardiovascular events, strokes, heart attacks, and associated with elevated homocysteine. Uhm- but you know, you wanna really look at all the other factors that are involved as well. And so, uhm- with different polymorphisms, like I said before, you know- it may just be something that you avoid like in the case of PON1 you know, we need to avoid those certain foods. Uhm- NAT2 is another one that’s involved in the phase- liver phase to detox process called acidulation.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And uh- again, this is another example. Some of the NAT2 SNPs will speed up that enzyme. Meaning it labels things harmful but aren’t really harmful. And other forms will slow things down or- so that you miss potentially harmful compounds. So again, you kinda have to look- I look at groups of polymorphisms, overall. And again, if someone’s come to and they have mold practice being asleep in a room like mold, 39:40 listen, MTHFR is not gonna be the first think we’ll work on.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right. Totally.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- Yeah. And that’s the time, I approach them uhm, along with healing the gut. And really controlling off the distress because if often distressed inflammation is present, none of these goals can be achieved.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally understand. So with the MTHFR, we have the C and the homozygous, heterozygous for the C6778T or whatever- and then the A1298C. How much percent is reduced depending on whether it's hetero or homozygous for each?
Dr. Tim Jackson: It’s different for different versions of MTHFR. Ah and uh-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: For the C and A versions.
Dr. Tim Jackson: What’s that?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: For the C and A versions-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh, Yes. So the C677T and the A1298C are the two that you’re talking about, right?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct. Correct.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. So the A1298C doesn't get much attention. It's more associated with neuro-immune type issues.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Meaning autoimmune disorders, uhm- lupus, sjogren’s, rheumatoid arthirits. Those sorts of things. Uhm- it’s also associated uh- to some degree in the research with autism. Uhm- but research shows for both C677T form and the A1298C form uhm- you know, they are responsible for different things. And again, you haven’t even know there’s dozens of different versions of MTHFR SNPs. Those are just the ones with uh- most research behind them now. And so in order- you asked me how much is that enzyme function reduced, I forget the statistics- you know, varied by ethnicity. Uhm- but again, we have to factor in oxidative stress, uh- heavy metals, uhm- nutrient depletion.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.
Dr. Tim Jackson: People don’t take those into account. And I won't name any names but there's a lady that you know- wants you to do like $2000 a month of testing and you need if you have the polymorphism, you take these four supplements and that you have this polymorphism to these two and could wind up on like $600 a month of supplement. And you don’t even know if they’re expressing. And so a lot of the so-called uh- polymorphisms will be silent by doing things we discussed, such as controlling inflammation, improving gut health, improving blood sugar, optimizing iron and oxygen delivery. All those things are positive signals sent to our nucleus of ourselves.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So let's say we have the homozygous of the C677T, so we have that 70 to 80% reduction in that enzyme. So let’s say we’re doing all the downstream things, right. We’re doing the glutathione, the diet, the- the,uhm- oxygen support, the B vitamins. What other supplements would we add in on the methylated nutrient side? Will we just be focusing on L- LMTHF Folate? We do methyl B12, or hydroxyl, or adenosyl B12? Will- what would you recommend on the supplement sites specific for those SNPs?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, first would be- And I know I sound like a broken record- supplements to go after inflammation.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.
Dr. Tim Jackson: So Carnosine, maybe CBD oil. Uhm- but the- one of the two probably most important nutrients that are crucial for all these methylation reactions, there’s hundreds of them, are magnesium and zinc. You know- let’s not get away from the basic too far here.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Of course.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- they’re cofactors. That’s what they are, for enzymatic reactions in the body. And so now I work on repleting someone's RBC magnesium and RBC zinc. I make sure that we have the other B vitamins like, B1, B2, B3-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: B5. Uhm- and as far as B12, usually most people do pretty well in a combination of the Adenosyl N-Methyl. Like I said, some people who are really sensitive to metal donors uhm- will get overstimulated by too- too much folate and B-12. But one important point I make here- just, I'm not trying to scare people, but a lot of people coming to me with these reports, and uhm- you know they just want to take methylfolate and B12 and be done with it. But if you take those two nutrients in the presence of oxidative stress, you create something called proxy nitrite.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhh-
Dr. Tim Jackson: That is a very harmful compound to all of our cellular structures. And so order here is important. There is a method to demand. And so, you know- again, the other B vitamin cofactors B5, B6, biotin, uhm- you add in B12 and methylfolate is last. And then for the transport of B12 to get into your cells, you need lithium orotate. Uhm- you know, lithium is important trace mineral.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hum-
Dr. Tim Jackson: And it uh- it has really good properties in terms of neural protection or brain protection.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. So when we add all these nutrients in, we talked about the magnesium, the zinc, the B vitamins, when would you in particularly use methyl B12 versus the Adenosyl B12 versus hydroxyl B12? How would you apply that specifically with each patient?
Dr. Tim Jackson: So with Adenosyl, it works more on the mitochondria. So if you really have someone with a lot of mitOochondrial issues, I’ll use a lot of Adenosyl.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Methyl, I- what I do is you will start on methyl adenosyl and then later on, when they’re processing uhm- the B vitamins well, I’ll add in you know the methylcobalamin. As far as the hydroxy B12, you can check someone's uhm– T-ADMA for nitric oxide status. Uhm, hydroxy B12 works on improving nitric oxide levels which-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it.
Tim Tim Jakson: – is you know, important self-signaling molecule in immune function and that’s your function.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Interesting. Excellent. So anything else you wanna comment on regarding methylation? Do you feel you’ve done a good job hitting all the key points?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. The fact- so many systems in the body and I wanna make an important point here, if you don't remember anything else. Remember that if you have MTHFR, the more copies you have, the less ability you have to uh- metabolize folic acid. So the whole point here is that-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Folic acid will build up in your bloodstream and studies show that it will lower your natural killer cells, which is not good for fighting pathogens or for cancer risk. And so uh- I see a lot of OB/GYN putting people on folic acid even when they know they have MTHFR.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And it just goes back to a fundamental misunderstanding or lack of understanding of basic biochemistry. Because that's the whole point of MTHFR that you cannot process the folic acid that’s added to things like grains and cereals.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. That’s the key thing is, you gotta make sure you’re at least on LMTHF Folate uh- or Calcium Folinate. But again, if a supplement company chose to put folic acid in there, they’ve really made a statement that they're undervaluing the raw material that they're putting in their supplements. So that's super important and like you said, the refine fortified junk food, is what's gonna have the folic acid in. It’s gonna be the orange juice, the bread, the grains, that kinda stuff.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Uh and real quick there’s the condition uhm-
called cerebral folate deficiency, whereby you cannot get folate into the central nervous system uhm- in the cerbrospinal fluid uhm- I know there’s- I think one maybe two lab tests for it. When I learned about it was actually a research project by Doctor Quadro's State University of New York. And uh- different you know, experts or authority years in the area will say you know different things about it. But uhm- with cerebral folate deficiency, most of the time the way someone supplements is using Leucovorin which is prescription folinic acid.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: So we have about folic acid. Well one step more active than that is folinic acid. And I asked Dr.Quadros, “why do you guys use this in the study, that they have MTHFR why not use different–
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah
Dr. Tim Jackson: Or when I used up on your you know- L-5-MTHF directly and he said, “One, it was just the way to study was written and two, there’s some potential neurotransmitter neurological uhm- functions that can be improved with Leucovorin versus uh- L-5-MTHF”. But you basically have to hypersaturate the receptors so that you can get transport across the brain and this affects the central nervous system greatly.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Excellent knowledge bombs there, Dr. Tim. I wanna give it here briefly, man. I wanna talk about mycotoxins. And mycotoxins are gonna be the toxins produced by mold. We’ve talked about this in our previous podcast that we did. So please refer back to the first podcast. But mycotoxins are really important. Obviously the first line of defense. I’m not gonna put words in your mouth. Correct me if I’m wrong. But get out of the environment where the mold is. That's probably number one. And number two is it will involve other steps. I wanted to kinda get you a breakdown of what people should do outside of the first step, environmental removal uhm- next to kind of eliminate and reduce mycotoxin exposure.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, yeah. Number one you gotta get rid of the moisture source.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.
Dr. Tim Jackson: So depending on where you live, like I was in South Carolina, I have to have two digimon of fires underneath the house. And I have one running upstairs even during the winter. And uh- you know there’s gonna be mold everywhere. But what happens is in a lot of people think mold is only in older homes. But with new homes, they try to build them to be so energy-efficient that it only leaves a few species of mold in the house. And you know it’s called niche exclusion like in the gut. If you only have a couple species of good bacteria, you can have an overgrowth of those good bacteria and undergrowth of- or deficiency of the others. And uhm- with mycotoxins, we can do a few different types of environmental test. The ones at your hardware store are not accurate. But uh- typically that will come back. There's one test called an RMI.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: RMI. Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Capital R-M-I. Uhm- and there’s uh- you know, it’s not really new anymore but it’s called the HERTSMI-2 Test. And this third one I'll mention is the Realtime Lab. They offer environment test. And so wanna test your environment and you'll be surprised because I know it takes darkness and a moisture source and most people don't to their ductwork clean enough. And these mycotoxins are very low molecular weight proteins. So most air filters will not get them. But uh- you can have someone who’s certified in testing come in, which I did. And then type up a pretty long report and they list the species that you have and what's important here is that there are certain genetic glitches. And this is not on a 23andMe but there's one called the human leukocyte antigen. And there are many of those, but one has to do with your ability to detoxify mycotoxins. I happen to have the worst one called the dreaded genotype. And that means –
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, man.
Dr. Tim Jackson: My immune system does not tag mycotoxins when I ingest some, whether it’s through food or breathing. And so they build up in my body. And you wanna talk about something that would disrupt every other system in the body, you can have the male- you can have a testosterone level of a thousand and a great free testosterone level. But if you still have mycotoxins, you’re gonna feel horrible. Your- five different types of your immune cells are gonna be turned off. And that’s just from one mycotoxin called the gliotoxin. And you know, it affects- causes system wide chronic inflammatory response syndrome. And even after the removal of the stressor, your immune system may still be reacting strongly. And so you can kill the mold but a lot of people will use things like ozone and ozone industrial mold. But it releases dead mycotoxins which are immunogenic or stimulating to the immune system. So the most reliable method I've come across is using biodegradable enzymes.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: It was expensive. It was about $10,000 but I've heard of people spinning up to 70 grand per mold for mediation. So you wanna really work with someone who is reputable and you know, who’s not out just trying make money and failed when you did everything to tear down your house. So the- I bring up the genetic glitch that can be tested through LabCorp and there's five different levels of that genotype. And 25% of the population has one. So what I'm getting at here is that, you can have an allergy or sensitivity to a mold, but the issue that I'm really focusing on here is the inability to detoxify mycotoxins. And that’s where ___ comes in.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: We have the dreaded genotype as well. That's why he makes bulletproof coffee.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Coffee, nuts, grains. Things like that are gonna be resources of mycotoxins available.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Big deal. Uh, but they're not part of that 25% of the population that have the genetic glitch. And so these things may be- be very small, very low molecular weight, but they can disrupt everything from hormones to brain function, to immune function. Gut health is another one, if you have a client or patient who's gut won’t heal. I won’t get into why that it has do with the hormone help alpha-MSH. But the mycotoxins- so we talked testing the environment.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Test your body level, there is a urine mycotoxin test RealTime Labs. But there is a kicker to it. You want to do a glutathione push you know, you’re hooked up to the IV and they just push some glutathione or taken a large oral bowl of some glutathione, about 30 to 45 minutes before collecting your urine to this test. Because if I were to take that test, and I didn't do that, it would come up with low levels because I'm a porch greeter. It’s sort of the same thing as metals.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Metals. Yes
Dr. Tim Jackson: So when I take little time and then check my mycotoxin levels, it will tell me where I am. And uh- the follow-up testing is much cheaper than the original test, which is pretty expensive. But we want check your body burden to see how aggressive we need to be in terms of getting each mycotoxins out. So how we get them out? We bind them up in the bile and/or we use a protocol called the lipid exchange protocol. And it can be a combination of oral and IV fatty acids. And all you're doing is you're rehabing the cell membranes. And when you do that, that allows talking to move out and nutrients to move in. and it's a high-fat diet, uh- moderate protein diet, low carbohydrate diet because you're trying to reduce positive stress in the cell membranes. And a combination of that, the Patricia- It’s called the Patricia Kane protocol or lipid exchange protocol, along with using binders, works really well. Uhm- you may also have an infection of those mycotoxins. So they may have created a systemic infection. Then you would have to take either herbal, some sort of neutraceutical prescription, antifungal to get rid of that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So looking at all the different options we have, right. We’re decreasing the moisture, the humidifiers, we’re maybe using a mold remediation service that uses some enzyme therapies to help clean things out.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There’s some decent air filters out there that are better that will at least help partially. Uhm- you mention the glutathione, right. Especially like a challenge when you test it with Realtime. But you could probably use liposomal glutathione as well. What about- And you mention the bile, right. So eating fats gonna be helpful coz that will stimulate the bile to release your- stimulate your gallbladders release bile, which is like changing that the gunky oil. What about modified citrus pectin? What about zeolite? What about activated charcoal? What are your thoughts on those things?
Dr. Tim Jackson: From my friends who are certified in the Shoemaker Protocol.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Shoemaker uses a cholesterol medication called cholestyramine.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: The issue with that is that-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Super expensive.
Dr. Tim Jackson: You get it sometimes it is very expensive. But two, it’s gonna bind up all your good nutrients.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And it usually constipates you. And most people with bile issue’s already constipated.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- But you- that medication and also have aspartame in it. Uhm- for $200 and something for a month supply, you can get it compounded. Uhm- there's another prescription called Welchol. And again, these are both cholesterol medications.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And it’s interesting because they hand them out like candy for high cholesterol. But when my clients need them for binding mold, they look at you like, “Oh, no! we would never do that.”
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know. It’s crazy.
Dr. Tim Jackson: But if question about modified citrus pectin and act with a charcoal-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What about bentonite clay?
Dr. Tim Jackson: What- bentonite clay. Yeah. The one that uhm- the KIinghardt Community, the Biotoxin Community is kind of found to be most efficient. It’s from a nutraceutical perspective. It’s TakesumiSupreme .
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Which is this uhm- you know, from bamboo tree.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bamboo shoots. Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. And so it’s pretty much like activated charcoal. Uhm- but there’s also another uh- process and I'll try to find the link whereby uhm- while you're trying to detoxify the mycotoxins, you neutralize them so they're less reactive in the body. And someone figured out that uh- specific type of Hawaiian Noni Juice.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:Ahh-
Dr. Tim Jackson: -like that. Uh, I have no connection to the company but you know, I’ve heard great things about it.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How about just juicing the herbs? I know what uh- I know you’re referring to Dr.
Dr. Tim Jackson: serves no way to know your friend it to Dr. Michael Leibowitz. He has a talk, Takesumi Supreme. He also has the Noni Supreme. Do you prefer the Noni as well to have those same effects?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Uhm- I have not used Noni a lot, to be quite honest. And so, you know- Again, my go to is uhm- the Takesumi Supreme uhm- or Modified Citrus Pectin, uh- you know, Pectasol, uhm-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: But you can also use, like you said, the bentonite clay. I just don’t have a tox of experience using it. And I just kinda you know, lots of times- It’s hard to research in all these different areas. So you kind have to stick to some of your-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.
Dr. Tim Jackson: -routine. Uhm-
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How about Zeolite?
Dr. Tim Jackson: So that’s pretty much what I do.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: How about Zeolite, Doc?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, Zeolite. Sorry about that. Well a lot – as you know, a lot of uh- different companies sold Zeolite that- It’s contaminated –
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: – with aluminum. Uhm- and I extense up my cells.Uhm- I won’t name the company but uhm- five of their models went out, they took it. There is a product that- and I’m not gonna mention it coz I haven’t fully- I don’t feel fully comfortable mentioning it, but it is a certain type of Zeolite that very public figure recommends to get into the cell. But it's also sold by another company in another name and it- supposedly has testing to show that is not contaminated with uhm- aluminum. Uhm- and it's supposed to be small enough this- the biophysical structure is supposed to be small enough that it can cross over into the cell.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. Awesome, Doc. You drop some serious knowledge bombs here. Well, to save everything else for a part two. I love it. But last question here for you. If you're stuck on a desert island, what’s the one supplement you- you bring with yourself?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Curcumin
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Curcumin
Dr. Tim Jackson: Hands down.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Curcumin. Love it. Hands down. Kinda help modulate that nuclear factor kappa beta, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: That's right. There you go. You got it.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it, Doctor Tim. Well, anyone listening here, Doctor Tim is available worldwide for Skype and phone consults. His Facebook is healyourbody.org He’s got a great blog post there. He’s also been on lots of other podcast like myself, bulletproof radio, etc. etc. So he’s a knowledge wealth. Dr. Tim, thank you so much for coming on the show. We appreciate the knowledge bombs. Anything else you want to leave our listeners with here today?
Dr. Tim Jackson: I would say that uh- the general concept is just because you can't see something, doesn't mean it's not having a tremendous impact and effect on your health. And that applies to two things I deal with daily. One, EMF.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhh.
Dr. Tim Jackson: You know- uhm, electro magnetic pollution.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And the other one is mycotoxins. So two things that we can't really see, but are having a tremendous impact on us. I know we don’t have time to get into this, but EMF have been shown to activate something called the cell danger response.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oohh.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And basically hijacks all the workings and uhm- metabolism of the cell. And so uhm- an interesting fact for Dietrich Klinghardt points out is that people that are in high EMF environments or non-native EMF environments who have mold. They get sicker because those vibrations and frequencies send signals to the mold to produce more mycotoxin and and more potent mycotoxin.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I think it’s’ stronger. Yup.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally make sense. We gotta be inflammation detectives.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Absolutely. You gotta understand what you see and understand what's happening of the cell and how to fix the cell, you fix everything else coz you gotta remember all your different organ systems are made of cell.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well it’s really great to have you Biochem background here in the show, Doctor Tim. Thank you so much and you have an awesome day. We’ll talk real soon.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Awesome. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thank you.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Alright. Take care.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.
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