Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Dr. David Jockers engage in a very informative discussion about cancer prevention and ketogenic diet. Explore how a ketogenic diet helps in optimizing the mitochondria, reducing inflammation and supporting metabolism. Discover how it can be combined with periods of intermittent fasting and learn about its benefits on cancer patients.
Gain information on how to go on a ketogenic diet. Be aware of the high-quality, nutrient dense foods and supplements to take and understand the possible mistakes to avoid while on this diet.
In this episode, we will cover:
01:53 How Ketogenic Is Integrated With Cancer Patients
12:05 Internal Glycation
18:13 Cyclical Ketosis for Insulin Sensitive People
22:44 Blood Ketones Measurement
25:21 3 Ketone Mistakes
27:35 Collagenic Diet
28:01 Gluconeogenic Proteins
32:14 Ketogenic Diet and Cholesterol levels
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey there it's Dr. Justin Marchegiani welcome back to Beyond Wellness Radio. We have Dr. David Jockers on the show. David, it's great for you to be here. How are you doing today?
Dr. David Jockers: Justin, so awesome to be on with you. I'm so in a form of a fan at your show so uhh- so great to be on with you and actually make it to you know- your show! And then uhh- be on a chat with you.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, I appreciate that. I've been following your blog posts for years. I saw you on a treat about cancer with uhh- the thigh bones your series. I appreciate that, lots of good knowledge bombs there. Really excited to bring a lot more info to the listeners today.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah. Absolutely! You know that was uhh- quite a privilege to be on that. And, what a movement! The truth about cancer to just getting that message out. Uhh- I mean people are starting to really realize wake up to the fact that, there are natural strategies for you to intake in order have you not cancer to obviously get well. Whether they're going to take a conventional route right in alternative rather in a sense, combination which is more of like help a lot of people is in this combination of conventional as well as using natural strategies. So uhh- so it's been huge.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it! And the great thing is you are also a clinician. So you're working with patients as well. The nice thing is, it's not just theoretical jargons so to speak. You're actually applying these to the patients that you're seeing in your clinic in Georgia which is great. And, one of the things that you’ve been doing and applying is Ketosis. So I'm just curious, how are you integrating that in with your clinic? As well as, how are you integrating that in with the cancer patients too?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, absolutely! So, I mean, Ketogenic Diet is so powerful for its facts on the mitochondria, reducing inflammation, and supporting in a sensuous help in about person have better metabolic flexibility. So it's always a goal that I have. But, as you know, you know the different cases? You know, some people are going to struggle to try to apply Ketogenic Diet in their really phases. So, typically with auto-immune patients, I focus more on- in elimination diet still including yeah- a little bit more carbohydrates you saying things like carrots, you know, nutrient-dense sources varies seems like that. And I'll get a lot of people that with auto-immunodeficiency and leaky gut that will say, “Okay, how am I going to get in the Ketosis by applying this and I was- so, I mean, that's truly not our goal right now. In general, it's you know, just like you talked about; Hey! It's a Paleo template so it's gonna be a lower carbohydrate go in hands and the anti-inflammatory nutrition plan. But the goal is in as early Ketosis whereas, when I've got somebody that has cancer. You know, early on I mean “Hey , I want them producing ketones and utilizing ketones because of the incredible therapeutic facts it has on reducing cancer cell division right. So basically, it’s something that goes down. It's gonna lower cell division and that's just so important. So basically, we'll start implementing that. Now I like to do it in a nutrient-dense fashion. So, a lot of people would go out and you know, get and find information in Ketogenic Diet and it's more like what's being taught of in times of more like an Atkins Diet? And, I really try to focus on getting a ton of micronutrients in and you definitely can do it on a low-carb diet if you use herbs, if you use non-starchy vegetables; you can juice. You can apply a lot of your different techniques. Certain things from the Garcin therapy right which has tremendous results using things like coffee and a moss, and juicing and a nut. You can take elements of that, you can take elements of Budwig and kind of put them all together in a very low carb, high good fat template uhmm- to get a desired result.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah people don't understand right? They think like, “Oh a Paleo Template” or like hear Ketogenic, they just think a whole bunch of meat. People forget you know a lot of times on a Paleo Template or Lower Carb Paleo Template. How you keep it a lower carb is you would really exchange it in a lot of the greens and a lot of the starch for vegetables, non-starchy vegetables which are nutrient-dense, low in toxins uhmm- they're going to have lots of phytonutrients which are lot of these compounds that you've talked about or anti-cancer, right? The Diiodomethane, the Indole-3-Carbinole. Really good nutrients to help metabolize estrogen and again not just an all-meat diet but then again, meat is going to be very nutrient-dense as well that's going to have a lot of good Amino Acids in there. A lot of good fatty acids especially were coming from the assumption that this is grasped organic high quality antibiotic-free. So you're going to get a lot of nutrient-densely from that as well. So, I like the fact that you're really focusing on the nutrient-dense. Yeah I think Atkins kind of missed that because well, you know- soil proteins are also lower carbs too, right? That may not be the best food, so I like how you kind of differentiate that.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah absolutely! Like for example, I mean it in the Paleo Movement, the Atkins Movement, you know- we talk a lot about- a lot of people who use things like bacon. Whereas, the problem there is, bacon really has very little micronutrients in it. It may have a lot of good fats , right? And so- it coud be Ketogenic but it does have now the micronutrients in it and when we have highlight process meat; we're gonna have a higher amount of Heterocyclic Amines and Acrylamide and different things like that. So, you know- we apply it. You know I'm a real big stickler on how the person prepares their meat so, you know- one reason why a vegetarian or vegan diet maybe beneficial for a period of time for somebody with uh- cancer would be because; we are taking out some of these environmental toxins like heterocyclic amines that are produced with a high heat cooking. (Which is healthier between grass-fed beef and frying meat) A lot of times we tell somebody, you know- eat grass-fed beef were not necessarily differentiating on how they prepare that so they may be barbecuing it and producing a lot of these compounds. So, I am a big on making sure they put it on the pan, put a whole bunch of coconut oil or MCT Oil down. I would tell them, put it- put down the oil to where- you know be so generous with it to whether it's like a quarter inch of oil on your pan. Okay? So, that way, in a sense- Oil is going to protect against the really high heat, breaking down the proteins and creating things like acrylamide and heterocyclic amines and then cooking it low and slow right? So, cooking it in a more a lower temperature for a longer period of time is gonna be a lot better.
So, yeah I will do more of a moderate protein diet not high protein. Okay, moderate protein. That's critical! We need the amino acids for the immune system but at the same time we don't want to overstimulated M2O or we also don't want that gluconeogenesis process or the protein; amino- protein is broken down into glucose and elevate blood sugar. So, moderate protein, lots of micronutrients right? So, Lots of cross super fetch vegetables. I'm a huge fan of sprouts. So, you know- a cancer diet we want to be consus sprouts. So I tell people to go and get, go to their whole foods or heath foods store. You know if they can't grow it in their own? Right I may be a big step for people at first. So, yeah obviously can create their herb garden and regrow sprouts but you know what? You can just go to your health food store and I'll tell them they should be going through you know, small little container sprouts every single day. So mong bean sprouts, broccoli sprouts, kale sprouts, be putting those sprouts into your diet using a lot of herbs so they should be able to smell the meal from the next room. Right? So much oregano, basil, thyme and the things like that. You know those flavanol, antioxidants, that are indoles some polyphenols? So powerful for improving cell communication and you know- Cell communication. The breakdown on cell communication- one of the biggest factors that initiates cancer growth and polyphenols are one of the best things for improving that cell communications- lots of those things in our diet.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it! Totally make sense coz- you talk about the polyaromatic hydrocarbon, the heterocyclic amines and the things that happened in our cooking. Now kind of my approach is- I try to high temperature? I sear in a minute or two, sear in a minute or two and then pull it off and then bake it on a lower temperature their form not charring coz- It's the aspect of you wanna seal the flavor in the high heat but then you don't want to keep it on there and let it char and develop those cancer causing things. So, for me it's like I get half my grill not you know-there's no flame? The other half there's a flame. Let that heat up for like 5 or 10 minutes. I get that to about 500 degrees. Sear, sear then pull it off, then raise it above and put it over the flame where there's no- put it over the part where there is no flame. That way, it cooks the middle part. So, i appreciate that and that's a really good point. Also, adding in those vital nutrients. I think that was Dr. McCauley said, any of the advanced glycation end-products that you get from the charring aspect that you just eat a whole bunch of vegetables and ad some of those herbs on there like you mentioned. That can easily just negate those too. So when you combine things up, you can negate some of that too, right?
Dr. David Jockers: Oh yeah! Totally! And, I'm a huge fan also of so you prepare your meat and then you squeeze lemons on there or lime or you can do lemon juice, lime juice. You get a mutual benefit. You get a really combination of benefits there. Not only do you get the antioxidants especially, when it's fresh squeeze- which we best get the vitamins you get the vital flavanoids right on there. Then you put herbs on top as well. But also the lemons got citric acid or if you use an apple cider vinegar that acidic acids can start the digestive process before even get into your body. And you know Justin, may I hey. The more we can take stress off the digestive system the better we're gonna stimulate nutrients, less-inflammation, were gonna curr less energy we got to put in to digestive track. Therefore, the more energy we are going to have left over for immune benefit right? To help regulate and run our immune system. So, I love lemon pepper chicken. I mean using lemon, lime, apple cider vinegar, on meat anyways it tastes better right. And uhmm- and you get those benefits
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah I was watching some of your wife Angel with doing a lot of recipes on YouTube – really, really good stuff too. I was checking out the recipe on homemade breast milk or homemade milk for the child if you can't have enough uh- And I know you guys had twins like a year to go so I know that's gonna be hard right? That's gonna be a supply issue there with just so many kiddos.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah absolutely! Having twins.. That was uh- our initiation into parenthood. So, it was like all of a sudden. And you know crazy thing is, we were only met- we were married for 6 weeks from we conceived. And she had that been diagnosed with Endometriosis whom us told we would have a lot of struggles having a baby. I've been working with her, helping her balance out her hormones. Okay, but we just didn't even expect that it would happen that quickly. We got married and had our twins within the same year and so, it just kind of this initiation at parenthood and uhm- basically she had trouble producing enough milk for both. So, we need to create a formula and there's not a lot of good ones out there. And so, you know- as quickly as possible I'm jumping onto a westonaprice. Looking at their recipe, learning on how to do it. Fortunately, we've got a great grass fed milk formula out here. So whenever we get our milk our boys tolerated it so well, and of course we had our probiotics in there. And uhm- just a whole bunch of different things cod liver oil, all kinds of good stuff there. And our boys are so well-developed. And, you know- then there are stapled food. I mean they were getting- up until an she's stopped being able to lactate at about 6months and even up until then they were getting like 25% breast milk, 75% formula. So..
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Damn. That's great and I'm an empathetic uhh- my younger brothers are twins. My mom had myself, and then my younger brother Matt, and then she wanted a girl and she got twin boys. So, it's just- I lived through that, I saw her right. So- I know it man you are uhh- you are going through a lot. I get it you know. I'm not worthy doing so good man. That's good. Good for you.
So I appreciate the recipe your wife's doing. I saw it somewhere, and were really, really excellent. Very good stuff. And the couple of thing he talked about the Advanced glycation end-products. Which you kind of refer to it as like the polyaromatic hydrocarbons, the heterocyclic amines but also, we get that same type of reaction that glycation that's happening internally with excess sugars. So that's- We have one aspect where we can create it in our food right? Which is like the glycation's like. If you pull out the blow torch in the rest on and they do the crumbule in front of you. That browning blasted glycation that happens in your food but also in yourselves. The best thing about kind of your approach; what you're talking about, is you avoid the internal glycation . Can you talk more about that?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah absolutely! So basically, we know that sugar is something we absolutely need. All of ourselves in the sense we need some level of blood sugar. If your blood sugar drops to zero, you're not gonna live. So, we have blood sugar body has certain regulatory mechanisms to keep your sugar elevated to a certain degree. Well at the same time, the more that we are running off a glucose metabolism or glycation. The more anti- you know it's really an anti-nutrient, the more damage is actually causing the body. So, we want minimal reliance on glucose when we are at rest. You know obviously if were working out exercising at a high intensive, were gonna need more of it- were gonna need that. We're gonna need that. Our body will adapt to actually create more stronger antioxidant defense system when we do that . Thats one of the reasons why high intensity exercise can be really beneficial. However when were at rest like you and I here we are, we're just having a conversation. We should be burning 99% fat and ketones. That' gonna keep really that glycation impact low. And we know that sugar in general- I c-I call it basically it's dirty fuel. Right? So we produce. It's a very very low gas mileage in a sense. We produce 2 ATP from Anarobic Metabolism. So ATP, I then and see try a fast fit so our major molecule event energy. We produce an amount of metabolic waste. And o it's just powdering out smoke right that you know- tons and tons of smoke out of the exhaust. That's basically what it's like. Whereas when were burning ketones which basically our liver converts fatty acids in te ketones and the ketones are what we use for energy. And so when our body is using these ketones, we produce a rampant amount of energy in very little metabollic waste. So we get a lot of better mileage overall. So basicall, we want our bodies to be very good at burning both. When it's very good at burning ketones for energy and glucose, it will preferentially use ketones as long as we create an environment where glucose in general stays at a moderate level. As long as were not spiking it with high carbohydrate meals. Okay, then were gonna have that metabolic flexibility to our bodysays, “you know what, at rest, while I'm having this conversation with Justin here? I'm gonna burn these ketones up because they're just better for my body theyre uhh- again, they're cleaner fuel I might need a lot of more and I'm gonna produce a lot less toxic waste as oppose to when I go. Because after this interview, I actually- I'm off for my workout so I'm gonna go do some heel sprints and uhh- and squat jumps. And so, good high quality you know- really good high intensity workout? So while I'm doing that- I'm huffing and puffing my body's gonna switch over and start burning up that sugar, right? during that period of time and as soon as I'm done with that exercise and I caught my breath?- back in the burning ketones.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes 100%! It's the seen versus the unseen. Because if the ketones are there, if we are doing it dieterally, we get these awesome fuel source that's really clean, right? so, if we got sugars like diesel fuel, right? You drive behind a diesel truck and we got high octane race fuel from the ketones. We get the ketones tht are high but when the ketones are high we have to have the insulin low for the ketones to be high. And when the insulin's low, that's a strong promoting growth factor for cells. And cancer basically is cell growth kind of unchecked, right? Where you can go in the pub med and just type in hyperinsulinism or insulin and cancer. And you can do it for any cancer. There's almost a correlation.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah! So, I mean Insulin really is a lifesaving hormonic get to butter up. But ultimately, it helps prevent against AGE development that advanced glycolitic enzyme development. Coz if blood sugar is really high in our bloodstream and it's not controlled? then we end up basically just destroying nerve endings. This is why people with diabetes end up with optic neuritis, peripheral neuropathy coz the sugar, the advanced gycolitic enzymes- those sticky proteins were sugar grabs onto Protein molecules creates this uhh- highly reactive molecule that damages nerves. So insulin comes out, it's job is to lower blood sugar so it takes sugar put it in the cells where it belongs. Problem is we have to keep on cranking out lots and lots of insulin. It ends up also promoting inflammation in the body. The inflammation will scar up the cell membranes and the receptors. And overtime, our bodies starts hearing the message for Insulins. Kind of like, you know-if you recurr my houses start banging on my door. At first I hear you, if you just kept coming over messing with me. Then overtime, it's like the boy who cried wolf. It's like okay uhh- you know what- this is probably not a real scenario I'd dole you out. And so it's kind of same thing with insulin. Basically, we want to keep our body really really sensitive to insulin. We want to were insulin knocks on the door, immediately we open that door. And the best way to do that is keeping our sugar down, keeping carbohydrate total, net carbohydrates– thats the amount of carbohydrates minus fiber. Fibers does not count. Fibers are not glycolitic. Were not gonna be able to break that down. Fibers is really a nutrient for microbiome which we need. And so basically, we want to keep those net carbs fairly low right? It can range for different people the better the more insulin responsive your body is, the more carbohydrates your body is going to be able to handle.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it! Love it! Love it! Very Good. We got some questions coming here on the live chat so to everyone that's putting the questions, keep em' coming at the end we'll do a wrap at the fire round with Dr. Dave. And we'll go through them all. But you said it's some really important things that I wanna echo couple things. Number 1, we talked about the fuel sources. Number 2 we talked about the insulin kind of like being a double-edge sword. Now most people in the population being insulin resistant there's massive benefits on the ketogenic diet because you get those receptors sites more sensitive which is great. But the double-edged sword. I did a video on this last week, the double -edge sword of ketosis. Where if you are already very insulin sensitive then youre going low carb for too long. Then we may drop the insulin almost a little bit too low we may get some negative symptoms with being ketosis and not cycling up and out. What's your take on cyclical ketosis some people that are already insulin sensitive then going into it for too long What's your take?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah that's a great question! I think it really depends on the individual but I'm a huge fan of experimenting. And I know for myself, I did much better on the cyclical ketogenic. What that means is, were gonna rotate in some healthy forms of carbs from time to time okay. And I really- what I trying to- Have my clients do something like 30 days low carb and then from there we switch in where we do 1 day a week, we add in more carbs ideally from healthy sources. You know the sicker you are, the more important that is to stay away from fake foods. and stick with really nutrient-dense foods and there's a lot of higher carb nutrient dense foods that are amazing for the body like carrots I mean just awesome food for the body. it just has the carbohydrate low, so we add in sweet potatoes so yeah different things like that. Beets, these things are great for the body.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Safe starch forms
Dr. David Jockers: Exactly! All those safe starches. Even quinoa you know well basically if you use something like quinoa with apple cider vinegar on it load it up with turmeric. I tell them do quinoa but make it orange quinoa or if you're gonna do rice, make it orange rice. That's such a good carrier for turmeric you got more of that Curcumin Antioxidant need to your system put a bunch of herbs in there. That would be really really good.Which you hve one day , you're not regulating your carbohydrates your getting them from safe sources but you're not really regulating it and uhh- so I like to include that in. And then I also like to include a 24-hour basically liquid fast where you are doing things like broth uuhm- or salt water uhh- you can do maybe a green juice or something along those lines your greens powder and water and just staying really well hydrated for about 24hour period of time. So you get these powerful benefits of intermittent fasting in there. So basically, what we’re going to do to you is 5 really low carb days, 1 day where we do 24-hour fast, 1 day we're not regulated. We’re not trying to count calories or carbohydrates; we're just saying Hey you know what? I'm gonna eat healthy foods and eat all these higher carbohydrate, healthier starches and just you know how i feel. Just eat them to n a sense till I feel associated. And were gonna include good fats in that. So I tell them “Hey! put some MCT oil or something like that on your carrots till we saw the ketones in this system”, were not worried about were just uhm- were not worried about hey what are our blood sugar is, what are our total carbohydrate count is. Uhm- when we do that so usually once a week for most people that respond well. Sometimes we need it more; sometimes we need it twice a week. Okay and for other individuals I tell them “Hey! Experiment! Try going two weeks without it right and maybe a carb blowed on oneday every2 weeks and see how you feel with that”. And so a lot of its subjective coz all of us are unique. We all have a unique biochemistry and our body is gonna give us different signals and so part of our health journey is really you know- I sell my clients it's about getting a master's degree on your health. You know it's gonna take your time to really understand how your body runs best. Okay? and you know people like Justin and I were here to help coach you to help you get good advice. But at the same time you gotta really help- you gotta really pay attention to signs and signals your body is giving you. And make the adjustments that you need. You know if you're under more stress and you're doing higher intensity training on a more regular basis. You may need to carb cycle a little bit more. Uhm it's a really just depends on what your stress load is, what your lifestyle looks like or your sleep habits look like. All of those factors.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it! Totally great points here. I'm actually gonna be testing my blood ketones here live on the air. Again, I got the precision extra meter heat and I get these little strips here I got them on ebay they're a little bit cheaper there you get it from New Zealand but I'm gonna test my ketones. I like to be at least .5 to 1. I mean this morning was just some coffee somewhat high quality organic coffee about 1 or 2 tablespoons that high quality MCT coconut base not palm. Tablespoon or two of grass-fed butter and about- a bit about 10-15 grams of collagen amino acids that might through collagen and that's where I'm at it. SO I et about 5600 calories and I'm feeling great this friday so I like .5 to 1 and then typically I'll even measure my blood sugar as well. I went out to last weekend to a really nice steak restaurant we did a really good grass-fed rib eyes, uhmm- oysters, some brocolli, I put bone marrow on my steak I measured my blood sugar after my meal- it was actually at 70. So no major spikes in blood sugars so that's a pretty cool thing. What are you doing to measure? I'm doing ketones. I'm doing blood glucose some clinicians are even measure fasting insulin I see people blood sugar blow a hunder but their insulins are like 15, 18, Like it's. The Insulin's so high, its compensating by pulling that blood sugar rim but the insulin so high but that's creating all that cell growth that could promote cancer right?
Dr. David Jockers: Oh yeah absolutely yeah we test fasting insulin as well but they’re at some important thing to look at. Hemoglobin A1C's we have to look the overall clycation impact on uhm- on the blood cell. So we look at that as well. Definitely, precision extra using the ketone strips. For me personally I like to use the Ketonix breath meter just know that my body is producing them. And you know ultimately once you’ve been doing this for a little while, you kind of know how you feel when you’re using these ketones because you're able to go a longer occurrence at time between meals and you feel really mentally sharp. Uhh- you don't feel tired. You feel good. You don't feel hungry and so if people are telling me that their having issues, mood, energy, cravings, uhhhhm- you know hunger things like that. These are all signs that the body is not utilizing the ketones well. And that's an important factor and you know I'm a big fan of getting a lot of salts in the diet. most people need a lot of extra minerals and especially when your insulin starts to go down. Insulin helps your body basically to retain particularly sodium but really most minerals. And when you start to lower your insulin levels, you're gonna need- you're gonna excrete more of these minerals. You're gonna need those. So, doing something like a broth, okay? You can just go out and get organic free ranged chicken broth for like 2 dollars 50 cents or something like that from your local. I mean, it's becoming more and more common at our local grocery store. We can get imagine organic fruit and chicken broth. Not the same thing as bone broth, doesn't have that the same level of collagen protein might have a little bit in it in there but doesn't have much of those types of amino acids but it has got tons of minerals. And you also get some antioxidants in because typically, what they're doing is they're using like celery and onions and garlic and stuff like that and just kind of boiling it up. So you get some of the essence of those. You get good minerals and to me I drink it as a mineral drink. Uhm and I like that. Warm mineral drink. We keep our house cold at night for good sleep. We turn down the Ac when hot. And so when I wake up in the morning it’s like: yeah I just really like that broth kind of that saltiness get that into the system and it just seems worked so well. Uhm and I find it that helps for blood sugar regulation as well just getting those good minerals because it keeps your adrenals balanced.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Really great points and that kind of goes into my top 3-5 ketone mistakes. 1. when you go too low- when you go low carb what's gonna actually happen? Insulin Drops, the minerals go. So you have to `consciously make an effort to get the pottassium back up from the green veggies and let me get the sodium amount from the broth and seasalt that's number 1. I see patients quite frequently saying I'm starting to have heart palpitations down this lower carb ketogenic diet it;s like where the minerals at , we adjust the minerals- fixed!.
Number 2: Too much muscle meat. Boneless, skinless, chicken breast right? Just getting protein powders without any fat in with it. Veal, Venison, uh- Rabbit meat right? Those are the big things and the Number 3: Poor Digestion. They don't have enough hydrochloric acid you already mention the citric acid in the apple cider vinegar helping, not enough enzymes, that's not in a bile slots, maybe they even got a gut infection that's preventing that from happening. So I see that digestive component is a huge component because we know protein and fats harder to digest than carbohydrates and sugar.
Dr. David Jockers: Huge component especially you know when people are starting on the Ketogenic Diet one of the common complaints we have is constipation. Yeah know but I was like uhhh- I'm constipated. here's a number of reasons for that . If you're doing it right, one of ther reasons could be the fact that your microbiomes got a switch over right. And there's kind of this transition which could cause lowered intestinal motility. That;s possible but most often is because, person's eating a lot of meat and then a hormone of hydrochloric acids . We gotta address that. And then the mineral, the mineral elements. Uhmm getting more minerals into the system magnesium into the system to help improve gastrointestinal motility and all those strategies we talked about earlier using a lot of herbs. And all of that those are carminatives they're really really good for muscle contractions in the intestines moving the waste through. So the more that we can add these components in, getting those minerals, getting the high quality herbs and sprots and different things like that and those uhh-really really polyphenal rich very low carb with any carb, types of nutrients into our system with our meals is just so powerful. Lemon juice, things like that that helps support digestion with enzymes and citric acid that's for acidic gastric from the apple cider vinegar. Very Very powerful. And Justin I had a question for you. Can you put the collagen in the Bulletproof coffee there? Your MCT Oil in the coffee.Do you notice any change compared to when you don't with your blood sugar. What have you been noticing?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh that's a great question. I got to test that. I tested it just the other day. Typically my blood sugar will just stay below a hundred. Again i listen to Josh Aksin, Jordan Robin just last weekend and uhmm- Jordan Robin's talking about “Hey it's Collagenic Diet”. Now we have a conversation I pulled them off the stage as a doc. I said let's talk about the gluconeogenic proteins versus the ketogenic. He's like you know the Hydroxyproline, these are in the collagen. Are these gonna be as gluconeogenic as let’s say what’s in whey protein or other muscle needs? According to him, his opinion is that the methionine and a lot of the sulfur amino acids are potentially more gluco neogenic and then the collagen aminos are more ketogenic in nature, it won't spike up blood sugar as much. So tha't his take on it and I think they get similar to the podcast for Dr. Burn Freelander talking about the major reasons why collagen is so great. It’s a little bit lower in methionine and that can have some blood sugar.
Dr. David Jockers: Yesh absolutely. We need methionine but the realty is most people in the society are eating a ton of muscle meat and very little collagenous meat. These ligaments, joints, cartilage structure which our ancestors ate a lot of that. So yeah getting that college and proetin and really helps balance it. Now L-glutamine obviously will really keep to the immune system, havereally keep for gut help but tends to be more insulinogenic and more you know just basically tends to increase much sugar a little bit more uhmm- what's your glutamin status and collagen protein? do you know?
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you get a lot of L-glutamin because it typically comes in a form of glutamic acid many people do great with it some people that are more on the inflame side, they can go down to glutamate but for the most par I find it tend to be pretty good with a lot of people .
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah, Justin for those people, I know you’ve seen that. For thoe people that produce more glutamate and less Gaba with it. Magnesium and B6. See it really well with that conversion.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: yep I a 100% agree on that too. Then I also see it too. You mention the muscle meat like methionine is still really good, we need that- that's a really important phase to detoxifying compound for you said it Crom P450 (Cytochrome P450) oxidize pathways. But were getting a lot of muscle meat you mentioned it uhh- Jordan Robin's talked about were missing the connective tissue component that's just so important for skin, nails, joints, tendons, ligaments right?
Dr. David Jockers: Oh yeah absolutely. I have an article on my website where I talked about that where muscle meats are very rich with methionine and tryptophan. And glycin and protein are the major amino acids that were gonna find in the cartilages, the cartilage and the joint structure. Glycin so critical for phase 2 liver detoxification..
Glutathione..
Dr. David Jockers: yeah it helps regulate Gaba right then have it to our neurotransmitter to reduce excite or toxicity and the brain help keep us calm. Most people are just knocking it enough of that because again they’re taking so much of this methionine. So, I’m a big fan of the cartilages diet. i just wasn’t sure personally how would it affect in my autoimmune cases and people blood sugar instability issues oftentime. I have them do that the cartilage uhm sorry the collagen in the coffee. And I know Dave asked for you you know he recommends that. I know that you’ve been talking about that a lot .
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Gotta be beef collagen you know I do the neo-cell chicken collagen. Tastes like crap. I gotta throw my coffee out of the. Gotta be collagen peptide its gotta be beef for my taste. It destroys the coffee if it’s not beef.
Dr. David Jockers: I use a bone broth of pure bone broth protein. i find it that works just kind of a savory flavor but you just mix it and you really don't notice it. I noticed that, that works good.. Now for myself, I don't personally do that. I personally either just do broth in the morning or I will do a Bulletproof coffee without the collagen proteins in there and the usual i put those in a protein shake. For me that seem to keep my blood sugar in most stable and my ketones at the highest and i feel the best with that. Now this wasn't sure I haven't had a lot of people test their ketones pre and post. So that would be interesting to see. How they responded adding in the collagen protein into the Bulletproof coffee.
I will test it today. I got my ketone meter. I'll test it in a bit.
Dr. David Jockers: Keep me updated on that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I'll do a video on this today. But .5 to .6 tend to where be.. at the minimal of ketones there which tends to be pretty good. Now I want to touch upon a couple of things here. People whose cholesterol I’m going to hit a person's question over here on the chat. But people, whose cholesterol goes out in a ketogenic diet; Typically, I find a lot of people's cholesterol actually goes down on a ketogenic diet if they're coming from an insulin resistant type of diet. Coz insulins resist or insulins gonna stimulate the HMG coereductase enzyme hematolitiric oil reductase that's the enzyme's status block. So if you are actually decreasing that enzyme by cutting the insulin down, i see people really improved their cholesterol numbers. But at the same time, cholesterol may go up on a ketogenic diet but if it does, I see the HTL go up in conjunction wih the LDL so the ratio is not getting worst and the trigs will also go down and the particles side shifts so your LDL A would go up , B would go down and your LDL will also improve too.
Dr. David Jockers: Oh yeah absolutely I mean that's huge. Im are always looking at that triglyceride HDL ratio. It's always been less than two. Ideally, yeah I like to uh 1.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep
Dr. David Jockers: And that's a big fact that's way more huge than our over cholesterol. So you wanna definitely look at that. And really when cholesterol's huge. If you have that terrible, try at of high LDL, Low HDL, High triglycerides- usually like you said- it's because of insulin resistance. It could also be a thyroiditis.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That's the thing! That's what I was gonna touch upon yes you hit it.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah or could be an infection. So those were really the 3 big factors that are causing that so it’s really a downswing of that its the body that actually saying “It's a response by the body to certain agree for healing when it comes to inflammation, infection and insulin resistance. And then , you know a thyroid basically you'll just gonna end up producing steroid hormone which is so important for proper regulation of cholesterol levels. So..
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100% and 1 other 2 other X factors I find is a dairy allergy and an egg allergy. So, people put a lot of butter, cream or a lot of eggs. Try cutting those out for a few weeks. Go get a lipid panel done. I’ve seen people literally been at 450 for their cholesterol and dropped down to 200 for in weeks.
Dr. David Jockers: yeah that's a goal of nugget right there. Especially for some people, trying to do a ketogenic diet. Yeah! Absolutely! And egg i mean the reality is: milk, protein and egg sensitivities are very high in our society. I think one reason is rally vaccines. They have egg out boom it in the- Vaccine is to create antibiotic response. So if you get a vaccine at an early age, your body creates an antibiotic response to egg out boom and.. And then some level of permeability in your gut and you’re eating eggs and you’re not fully digesting them well. The ability now to egg out boom and slips out doesn’t get fully digested and broken down in Amino acids Soups out in the bloodstream , your body's gonna do what it's ought to do.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A 100%. And I also find too that if you heal the gut and you get the inflammation down, and then you reintroduce things the right way. What I mean by the right way, is you do the egg poached soft, you keep the yolks would run. In that way, we are not denaturing the protein coz sometimes it’s just the oxidize cholesterol that are our immune system is reacting to. Sometimes it’s evident in the yolk or sorry the white part of it. And when it comes to dairy, you start with Ghee, grass fed ghee and then you progressed to grass-fed butter . But again, one at the time. And then you can monitor with the lipid panel in between. And that pretty inexpensive task. But I've seen that really help and people have been able to add those things back in and not have jump in to cholesterol.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah that's really really good. Especially some of again, that's how a ketogenic diet. Coz typically you’re gonna be eating like I'm a huge fan of your grass-fed butter right. So yeah, taking it, take it out for a week then try adding it back. You know you could even do that something along those lines. I'll have people do post testing a lot of times.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep
Dr. David Jockers: So basically, just take your pulse. Take a resting pulse. Okay? Say its 60 beats per minute. Then go ahead put some grass-fed butter on your tongue right? Take a few deep breaths. Wait about 20 seconds and take your pulse again. And if it jumps up 3 or more beats that's a sign of stress response to it. And if ever you have stress response to something, it's gonna cause inflammation in your body. So I'd be something to take out at that point if you did ever response like that. Take it out for a month. Okay? Follow a good anti-inflammatory, leaky gut based diet outside of using you know-those dairy using any sort of dairy products and then try adding it back in and then and.. like you said. Best thing if it's dairy is to add that Ghee; cause that's got the least amount of inflammatory dairy proteins like Casein in Whey, also the Lactase as well. Those are the things that most people are reacting to. So you start that. Then go ahead and do a pulse test with that. And if your pulse test comes out well, add it back in your diet one day. Consume a bunch of grass fed Ghee on things and then see how you feel of it for about 3 or 4 days. If you notice of symptoms, okay- increasing amount of symptoms. Sign your body is still not fully recovered.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%! Theres an application called Food Sense, you can download it on your phone and it will do that same thing you mentioned. You out your finger over like the camera and it'll measure your pulse before and after so, 100% that’s a great way to do it. Now next, is I see people that are going maybe too low carb for too long or maybe they're more Insulin sensitive. And I actually see their blood sugar jump and there are some people where we actually add in a little bit more carbs and their blood sugar actually drops. In my whole theory is that the gluconeogenic processes is corticol dependent. So that cortisol is causing a little bit too much of a bump in that blood sugar. And if we add just a little bit of carbs back in especially the safe starchy carbs you've mentioned. We can actually drop the blood sugar by actually adding in carbs. What's your take on that?
Dr. David Jockers: Uh, 100% I totally agree with that. So I have seen it a number of times and so, they’re super, super low carb diets ultimately long term for most people are not gonna be very healthy. So, adding in again some of these safer carbohydrate components. In all reality, the body was meant to adapt. Our ancestors, they weren't just low carb because they were tryna’ lose weight. They were low carb because they were eating whatever was available And for the most part, what was available was lower carb foods, meats, and they would have times of famine. They have times were they would go days without food. And so, reality is, they had a great adaptability. And cells that can adapt are healthy cells right? Whereas sick cells, cancer cells don't adapt well. So, in a sense adding in priming the body with little bit of carbohydrates here and there. I find to be the most effective way for a long term health and long term sustainability for most people that are- certain percentage of people that.. They tell me “Hey you know I've been for Ketosis for 3 years and I'm doing great”. Okay? So, there are certain percentage that I won't- I don't wanna take that away from those individuals. But at the same time I would say probably four or fifths, 80% are gonna do better to some level of cycling out their carbs.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah a hundred percent totally make sense. Now what about Ketogenic Diet when you have infections? We all know that a lot of people are Insulin Resistant. A lot of these got microbes that love the feed off of sugar, carbohydrates, especially the yeast. I see what parasites and fungus why could that's really easy to access. But there are people like, Kressers talked about it at poligy emanate. Talked about that these critters can also fuel off ketones. Now my approach is, that sugar is gonna be the easier fuel source. So that's gonna be the low-hanging fruit. But what do you do when people, maybe the ketogenic diet is feeding some of these critters. My approach is we go low if we see an exacerbation being so low. We just gently tape for about and see if there's any improvement in symptoms. How do you handle that?
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah! very very similar. I think microbes are adaptable just like our cells who are adaptable. So you know if we go low carb at first, they're gonna start dying. And the at some point if they want to maintain the resiliency, they got to adapt those microorganisms. You know they have short half-lives and that they start to adapt. And they start to be able to burn whatever fuel they can. But again just like you said- I mean glucose is the easier fuel for them that's why they prefer it. Uhmm- it's easier for their chemistry. And it's so.. I still am a fan of “Hey! let's get some ketones in there”. Now, big thing there is getting the right antimicrobial stance. So eating a diet that's rich in polyphenol like antioxidants is important. Coz it improves cell communication, improves your immune system's stability- can recognize whether it's a virus, whether it's yeast, parasites as opposed to uhm normal cell right? We wanna do things to uhm- strengthen the immune system while we change the you know the -metab- the, the.. fuel source for these microbes and I think that's really key. I think doing both of those things is a fantastic combination and then even if implementing if the person's able to handle it some intermittent fasting can also be very very helpful there too because again, we were reducing the food stuffs for those individuals. And then when we do feed, we feed with lots of antimicrobials. So that way, the yeast, microorganisms.-they start hunkering down when during the fast. Then, that's food become prevalent they come out and you know- they are not differentiating in a sense there like “Hey!” I’m like If you are hungry, You know- you know what Justin if you go a week without a food or whatever it is and you're starving- you're gonna be a little bit less uhmm– you know you're gonna be a little bit less sensitive about what you eat. You just want food in your body, you know? And it's kind of the same thing with the yeast, the different uhh- microbes and they're gonna start eating and then a course of if you've got the anti-microbial whether its from supplement. You know, I'm a fan of it with supplement and foods, right? Right in there at the same time as they eat they are taking in the these different component or gonna help basically combusters of wall or whatever it si whatever the mechanism is to help kill them off.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally make sense.
Dr. David Jockers: And then following it up with a bunch of charcoal or clay or something like that to .. Any of the gases and uhh- all the sort of uhh- toxic metabolites that they were least .
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally make sense and one of the things that I incorporate when we’re doing specifically clearing programs to address these infections. It's like chum in the water. You wanna go shark that and then you gotta put some chum in the water to bring those sharps in the surface if you’re gonna do some killing of these bacteria, you gotta chum that water with maybe a little bit more of carbs or a little bit more fodmaps that for dealing with SIBO (Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth). Bring them in the surface and then, *clap smash* blind site baby!
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah absolutely! Yep! That's what I think like the warrior die approach for it's like played. You know like doing a 24-hour fast like I was talking about for able to do that one once a week. That's 24-hours. These microbes replicate so fast they usually have like- `something like I don't know if you know the numbers but I've heard like 4-6 hour lives, right? So reality is, they are already changing their metabolism during thta period of time. And, uhm- you know they're having to adapt very rapd rate in order to survive and so we go 24-hours without major amount of calories. Now, we've started- we've reduced some of that microbial load overall. Okay as long as we moved our bowels. Also, while were doing that- drinking lots of fluids maybe using magnesium supplements. Keeping the bowels moving well, right? Getting all that stuff out. We've reduced some microbial load Yeah then we hit it in. You know the warrior died that's kind of like “Hey you, you know you eat very light during the day and then you have the feeds meal, right?” And of course, we want to recommend a healthy feast meal. Not just Domino's pizza right? But you have that healthier feast meal wherein you’re getting in a lot. Your good foods okay- you know safe starches, things like that. You know at acertain point you know at least once a week. Uuuhm- you know with some day it does have infections I'm a fan of and then pounding it with those anti-microbials and the again using charcoal clay, different things like that , different absorbing agents help clean the system because you'll gonna have a lot of metabolic waste leftover from these microbes so you wanna go in there and grab that stuff out or we're gonna have a greater livelihood of having uhm- die of symptoms- using a lot of water too, good hydration again keeping those bowels moving that's so important.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it! well outside of that couple of questions I’ll just roll through here. I’ll just give you a wrap of response. Can taking digestive enzymes plus ACL plus Apple Cider Vinegar prior to a meal be too much for someone with a compromised digestive system? My opinion is if you have a compromised digestive system you're probably not making enough HCL enzymes so my take is the gut's not irritated by the HCL, you know- do HCL based on sensation and then opt the enzymes which tends to be more you know, non-abrasive. What's your take?
Dr. David Jockers: Uh totally! Absolutely! I would do that. And I think that uhm- that question I think they said do HCL before the meal. Okay if you're really irritated with your gut lining, probably better to do HCL in the middle of the meal.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bingo!100% Yep! Kind of aligns it you know it says like the oreo cookie. You got the filling there. Totally! And none of the top be there coz sometimes they got stuck at the top and hit that top of the atrium or the soft…I see it both ways.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Perfect! and then the person here comments “Well it sounds like a Ketogenic Diet is a diet for inactive people” My take is well if you're insulin resistant, you're not burning fat. This is a therapeutic diet to burn fat and number 2 is we want to burn clean fuel. What's your take?
Dr. David Jockers: Well yeah. It's reallya diet for active and inactive people. Definitely, inactive people obviously we need to use diet to uh- to get insulin under control if they're active- you know what? We want the body to have this level of metabolic flexibility where ot's able to adapt its metabolism based on the needs of the environment. I wanna have incredible metabolic flexibilities. What do I do for that? I move my body a lot. I exercise at a really high intensity uh– Four days a week I do a really high-intensity workouts. Okay? while I'm in Ketosis. Why? because I want mybody to be able to be realy good at going between using ketones for energy and using glucose for energy. What's gonna happen, youre gonna actually end up boosting your uhh- you're basically you're losing your blood losing in levels between meals and that's gonna help preserve muscle mass and help improve performnce. and that's gonna help preserve glycogen in yourselves. your body gets really good at storing glycogen and utilizing it only at times when it need sit.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it and losing its antiviral in a ketogenic amino. That's one of the few aminos that could go to ketones. Love that! Yep! So what are you eating Dr. Dave? Give me a rundown of your day look like.
Dr. David Jockers:Yeah absolutely so for myself This is uh- a big thing that I teach I only do one solid food. I would say 6 days on a week. On an average. I'm doing one solid food meal a day. Okay? And then usually its in the evening coz that's typically my most relaxed period of time. So I’m a big fan of liquid nutrition. So, In the morning like… This morning, I drank a lot of broth; In fact, there still have some right here deluded uhh- with hot water. Okay, and I drink that. And sometimes I go like its 24 hours like were talking about and do that but uhm- typically especially on a workout day- for long noon I do a protein shake. And I actually like a protein putting. I put 1 or 2 avocados in there. I use coconut milk or raw grass-fed milk. Uhm- I use good high quality protein powder I like uhh like a boom broth collagen protein uhhhm or sometimes i use like a p-protein. Whwy protein seems to bump up my blood sugar a bit so uhm I use one of those types of proteins in there. And sometimes I use a combination of them. And uh- and that's really pretty much it. That's in the- oh yeah, I put MCT oil in there and somtimes some extra coconut oil in. So really it’s a lot of fat and it's dense. Proetin putting and I love it. So either make it with chocolate or just a vanilla. Okay? Chocolates uh- that chocolate avocado pudding, one of my favorites. Uhm and so I'll have that typically for lunch okay and then you know I stay really hydrated especially in the afternoons. Uhm- a little bit more intentional about hydration. In the morning it seems like my body is craving the hydration, the minerals. What about a naturally, I drink usually about a gallon of water before the time wake up before noon. I'm just cranking to lots and lots of hydration. Then I usually work out around this time of day and the right after that, room protein shake then in the mid-afternoon I drinking a lot of water usually with about the hour after my shake and then I start really hydrating my body well again. And I like to do magnesium in the water. I have a product bringcome magnesium that I put on the water okay and ill drink that. I love to get that extra magnesium in. Uhm stay hydrated as much I do greens powder and water as well. And then the evening, were usually using some sort of healthy meat whether ts well caught salmon, chicken, turkey, duck, lamb, vicen, grass fed beef. Something along those lines. Lots of vegetables. I like to use a lo of grass fed butter. Uhm my vegetables, getting a lot of good fats so i use MCT oil on mymeat sometimes on my vegetables as well. Coz MCT oil turns in the ketones a lot faster than coconut oil or really anything else. And so put that on everything lots of herbs, lemon, apple cider vinegar all those super strategies that we talked about. Sometimes I do just big gigantic salad with some chicken breasts and MCT oil and olives on there or maybe avocado on there. So I'm always trying to get these good fats in and uhm- you know for me I think the biggest things sometimes, I'll crave extra protein and so in my workout days; I usually increase my protein , my meat consumption a little bit on the evenings and now on workout days, I try to keep it a lot more moderate.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. I’m kind of in a similar boat. I tend to do a lot of uh- butter coffee, MCT and collagen in the morning on days that I'm more stressed I will do uhm- eat a bigger breakfast that will add up some eggs, and bacon and grass fed all that good stuff. Tend to go like maybe 5 or 6 hours between meals. I got a desk treadmill so I walk about eleven miles per day. You know seeing patients, and then I like the bars and kettle bells so in between atient calls. Push-ups a feel your, kettle bells to seal you. So I tryna do a lot of unorganized exercise where its just like it's sporadic term of my day. Lunch- I mean typically for lunch, I'll take some tuna on top of a salad cut up an avocado use to mark primal dressing. You know , the Caesar dressings awesome now. I’m loving it. And then tonight we got Keto Burgers stand out. Mean, I get these from US Wellnes Meats. 55, 45 right? Buy protein 45 fat put that on the baddest spinach cut up some avocado. Tonight, I may go all out and have a glass of sparkle and wine. Typically have a low-sugar kind of demi-sec where you drive version of it. With one or just do a Kombucha instead of low sugar GT des Kombucha and then for dessert maybe a 90% dark chocolate.
Dr. David Jockers: Yeah I love it! I like Cavitas. I'm on Fiasec Cavitas ..
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh my freak just talked.
Dr. David Jockers: I'm in Cavita, one of my favorites. Think about lime and menthols such good carmenertives so good for the gut then we got the coconut water that’s fermented. you got more b vitamins, lowers sugar levels and i respond really really well on that. oftentimes at night we'll do herbal tea. Like a nighty-night tea or something like that. uhm just getting more on those herbs. i think that’s something that you know there’s a lot of people that are teaching ketogenic diet but now whole lot more of emphasizing herbs and uhm i think that's a missing component in our diet as getting using these herbal medicines.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: you enjoy a little bit on the same track men you were talking about all that lastly again. You made some great points like the herbal infusions the teas.. Also uhm the bom brought there and I think thats really huge and I think you call it serum soluble nutrients. I loved that, that worked!
Dr. David Jockers: Absolutely. Yeah Jordan is a good friend of mine so uh- we talk about all these stuff often.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah I hink he's totally on track with that. Awesome. http://drjockers.com uhh- awesome blog, awesome YouTube. I check it out weekly then it gets lots some of great info- information. I'm happy you're on the podcast. Any other knowledge bombs you wanna drop here before you exit.
Dr. David Jockers: You know I think we covered a lot. I think ultimately at the end of the day, uhm people often realize we’re striving for metabolic flexibility you know and so when somebody is real fatigue, real adrenal fatigue. Theyre very very poor metabolic flexibility okay. But ultimately the better your metabolic flexibility, this ability is watched between ketones and glucose and energy source, the better your quality of life is gonna be. The better your performance is gonna be. So uhm- so basically you know practitioners like you Dr. Justin and myself, that's really our goal to our clients is. Hey, get them to the point where they are so metabolically flexible to where they can adapt to different nutritional practices and go low carb for a few weeks at a time or maybe even do a high carb week right and not have the delirious effects that come with that and being just able to adapt is so critical. Healthy cells are cells that can adapt. Unhealthy cells can't adapt. And so as a whole as an organism we wanna be that adapt strong.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it and now if you're stuck on a desert island, and yo can only bring one supplement with you what is it
Dr. David Jockers: For me its magnesium. Magnesium is like my magic bullet so from feeling a little bit low on energy? okay? – Magnesium. Following a sleep crate? Magnesium. For a grove good mental clarity? Magnesium. Magnesiums seems to be- especially magnesium of 3na that would respond best to that one. Crosses the blood brain barrier. helps to-its really like an adaptogenic herb, its really an adaptogen where it helps to balance out my stress hormones. I just feel great with that. And that’s something that in general if you’re stuck on a- on an island you may have access to things like coconuts and stuff like that but uh- you know chances are you just in general especially if I’m eating a lot of fruit uhm because I’m on the island. I probably gonna need a little bit more of magnesium.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally make sense plus said here. On an island men you're probably stressed on act that magnesium that definitely help with constipation right. Love it! very good very good. Any closing thoughts we got your information out there Dr. David Jockers go to the site. you'll also see the YouTube channel great recipes, your wife Angel's rocking out of the park with those recipes, they got my wife checking them out too. Anything else Dr. Dave?
Dr. David Jockers: You know, I think that's really is . I just want to thank you for having me on the show. And I just remind you again that Hey I'm a big fan of the show. So if you guys are listening to Dr. Justin here, people like myself and other health influencers, we tune in to Justin's podcasts because he is always dropping nuggets and uh- I love your analogies and how you create things down so I really appreciate all the great work you're doing
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well uh appreciate that Dr. Dave. Awesome! Well you have a great weekend on Multstein Dutch.
Dr. David Jockers: Alright you too Justin.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Alright take care!
References:
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