Low Body Temperature! – Dr. J Live Podcast # 156

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand engage in a very informative discussion about low body temperature. Learn how different potential stressors like thyroid issues, adrenal issues, gut health, autoimmune conditions, nutrition and low calories cause low body temperature. Find out about the role of micronutrients in thyroid hormone conversion and be aware of the medications that have a negative impact on mitochondrial function.

Gain information about the different foods, including modifications in macronutrients, and various supplements, which will improve your health and prevent different stressors that are possibly causing low body temperature.

In this episode, we cover: low body temperature

03:27   Thyroid issues

07:05   Beneficial Nutrients

14:14   Toxins and Medications

22:51   Food and Supplements

33:46   Calorie Intake

 

 

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we are live here on YouTube. It’s Dr. J in the house. Evan, my man, how are you doing brother?

Evan Brand: Hey man, happy Monday! We’re talking all fair about that shooting this morning so my mom, she worked right next door last night at the Hotel Luxor which was uh— right next door to that shooting event in Vegas. So I called her this morning and she’s safe and sound and she got released, so she’s home, hopefully sleeping. I’m sure she’s extremely adrenally stressed at this point, but hopefully she’s resting and settling down from all that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Lots of empathy for all the people out there going through that. It must be just incredibly stressful.

Evan Brand: It’s insane.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s just so difficult. So wishing everyone, you know, speedy recovery from that. That is just so difficult and man, everyone’s adrenals are revved up from that, right?

Evan Brand: I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So let’s go into some stuff here where people, we would get— put some information out there about improving everyone’s health.

Evan Brand: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh—and just continue to empower more people. So let’s dig in, brother.

Evan Brand: Yes. Yes, so you and I want to chat about low body temperature, which is something that so many people have. I’ve had it in the winter for a long time. I’m hoping that since I work so much, my gut and my adrenals that I don’t have it this winter but cold hands, cold feet you know that had been something that I mentioned going on with me for—for several years. I know there’s a lot of different causes that you and I wanted to go through. So how should we open this thing? Should we talk about hormones, thyroid, how do you want to lay the groundwork?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, we look at body temperature. Temperature is probably one of the best indicators of your metabolism, right? Because the more energy you have, typically the— the better your temperature is. And so typically, you’re gonna have symptoms of cold temperature which are gonna be cold hands, cold feet those kind of things. Also, fatigue, but now there’s also objective ways that we can test your temperature. You know, with the thermometer, obviously. We can do axillary temperature, which is armpit. 97.8 to 98.2 is—is Fahrenheit is a pretty good range to be in. Or 98.2 to 98.6 orally. And so you can kind of assess your temperature. You can do it in the morning and then you can also do it in the afternoon as well. Kinda do it just for before eating. That gives you a pretty good indication but if your metabolism is low and your temperature is low, it could be caused by an interplay of different things. We’ll go into it. It could be thyroid issues. It could be adrenal issues. It could be gut issues. It could be nutrient issues. It could be mitochondrial issues. So all of these things are potential stressors that could be driving that problem.

Evan Brand: I’d say number one is probably thyroid issues. Wouldn’t you suspect because so many people we talk with they have adrenal issues with them on top of that there is a thyroid problem. Like maybe elevated reverse T3, whether you’ve got that blank bullet going on or they just got a low free T3 or like you and I’ve chatted about with adrenals, you’ve got the conversion process that happens where you take the inactive T4 hormone, you convert that to active T3.That conversion process gets messed up if you’ve got chronic stress. And chronic stress as you mentioned, could be gut infections, it could be emotional stress, could be chemical, heavy metals. It could be circadian rhythm stress if you’re working third shift, for example. That could be enough to change this whole cascade. Wouldn’t you say?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. Hundred percent. I mean, again, all of those things can be intimately connected. The first we look at is thyroid because thyroid hormone has a major effect on our metabolism. And our metabolism is the sum of all chemical reactions in the body. And our metabolism is pH driven, right? So if our pH becomes too alkaline or too acidic, like you know blood pH, which exists in a very fine-tune range, right around 7.35+ or -1/10 of point there. And if that pH shifts up or down, that can affect how all of our enzymes in our bodywork. So that can affect temperature and there’s things like—uh like a diabetic coma, right? Where blood sugar can go to he— or too low typically. If someone’s type I dependent and they don’t have insulin, they don’t get sugar into their cell, which can create ketoacidosis. And that can really, really drop that pH and that put you into a coma. So our pH is very driven and has a major effect on our metabolism, so, totally.

Evan Brand: So let’s hit on—let’s hit on the thyroid peace. Now autoimmunity is something we talk about so much. Would you say a common symptom of someone with Hashimoto’s, for example, could be low body temperature or possibly even a fluctuating. Maybe their low body temperature if they’re a bit underperforming but then couldn’t they just bounce right back and get actually hot if they bump into hyperthyroid. If they’re in the Hashimoto’s state, and things are still fluctuating.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. So, if you’re having Hashimoto’s and your immune systems constantly attacking your thyroid, your thyroid hormone can spill.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Coz every time it’s attacked, hormone spills out. Eventually those follicles run dry and you’re not gonna quite have that hyper kind of symptoms. So in an acute attack, hyper symptoms may be increased temperature are common, right? You can have like PVC’s periventricular contractions. Uh—you can have, you know, kinda this—kinda heart palpitations. Your heart’s kinda beating erratic and hard, uh—anxiety, night sweats, irritability. These are all hyper thyroid symptoms. You feel warming, right? You feel excessive warmth or temperature. But then, in a chronic state, that will eventually lead to a hypothyroid kind of environment, where your body temperature just gets very low.

Evan Brand: So someone has had Hashimoto’s for quite some time, let’s say there’s been a pretty significant tissue destruction, you would say someone will not end up being hyper long-term with Hashimoto’s. It’d probably be hypo long-term.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean you can—hyper feels very similar. Hyperthyroid Grave’s feels very similar to a hypothyroid autoimmune attack. The difference is with hyper, typically, there’s a specific antibodies or immunoglobulin compounds that come back. So with Grave’s, you’re seeing TSI immunoglobulins or you’re seeing thyroid TSH receptor site antibodies. So that’s what’s typically common in Grave’s. And when those things are high, it’s accelerating the thyroid hormone to produce excessive amounts of thyroid hormone. So there’s like a production stimulation where with the autoimmune attack, from like thyroglobulin antibodies or TPO antibodies is it’s more the spilling of a thyroid hormone out of the thyroid. It’s spilling out where the antibody attack from Grave’s, it’s stimulating the thyroid to produce more.

Evan Brand: Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: With Hashimoto’s, you’re not getting the stimulation. You’re more or less getting that spilling effect, which eventually, you know, will run dry.

Evan Brand: Got it. Got it.  Okay. So we hit the autoimmune piece. What else would go on thyroid-wise that will be an issue with temperature regulation?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, again, there’s also certain nutrients that have a major effect on thyroid uh—conversions. So we know things like selenium are super important for thyroid conversion. So someone may have decent thyroid levels from a T4 perspective, uh— but they may not have that activation, right? They may not have that conversion uhm— that’s so important.

Evan Brand: So could it just be the lack of trace nutrients, trace mineral selenium, zinc— things like that activators.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So here, we are live on Facebook now, too with the low body temperature podcast. So getting back onto our common thread. Yeah, micronutrients like selenium are gonna be important for thyroid conversion. It’s a five—the enzyme that converts T4 to T3 inactive thyroid hormone to active thyroid hormone is a 5 deiodinase enzyme. It’s also important with glutathione and detoxification. So, yeah, that’s totally uh— important micronutrient that will affect thyroid activations. So when we look at thyroid function, we’re looking at are there blood sugar fluctuations? Are you eating grains or foods that are gonna cause that thyroid antibody attack that could cause the hormones to spill out and eventually deplete the hormones? Your thyroid follicles carry about four months of thyroid hormone. So again, if you have a chronic Hashimoto attack, where the thyroid hormone’s spilling out faster than you can synthesize and make more, then you’re going to definitely get to that depletion state where you’re gonna go hypo from a temperature standpoint. You’re gonna go almost hypothermic. That temperature will drop below that 97.8 – 98.2 armpit temperature wise or 98.2 to 98.6 and I’ll put a handout down below to my uh— metabolic temperature handout. So people can actually track their temperatures and it’s basically a graph of three different lines. And then the top brackets where you want your temperature to be through which ranges 97.8 – 98.6 We want to be checking off daily that your temps are in this bracket not the bottom or the very bottom.

Evan Brand: Got it. Okay. So what else? Should we talk about the nutrients next?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Should we talk about the nutrients, right? Vitamin A, we talked about uh— zinc, copper, selenium, magnesium very important nutrients for thyroid conversion. Now if you’re eating a whole food diet, you’re gonna be typically pretty good. If you’re having enough HCl and enzymes, you’re gonna be good as well because we need those type of compounds to be able to ionize the minerals. So it’s the diet component. It’s making sure we have the ability to break down the foods in our diet that are nutrient dense. Uhm— number three is making sure our stress response is okay because stress hormones will affect thyroid conversion. Cortisol being hyper— very high— will affect thyroid T4 to T3 conversion that inactive to active thyroid hormone. Also, if cortisol is too lo from chronic stress. So there’s this, kinda Goldilocks effect that we see here with thyroid hormone kinda need it to be not too high, but not too low to have optimal conversion. Does that makes sense?

Evan Brand: Yeah. It does. Well said. Let me mention about the gut, too, coz you just hit on the fact that you’ve got to have absorption. So even if the diet’s good, which many people listening to us, they probably already dialed in like a Paleo template but they could still have this symptom. You may want to check for infections. Coz like Justin and I talk about almost every week at some level, there could be an H. pylori, bacteria, yeast, fungus, something going on in the gut that’s stealing your nutrients or preventing you from optimally digesting. And then that issue is compounded, if you’ve been taking any type of anti-acid where acid blocking medication something simple as Tom’s or something more strong like a prior was it Prilosec or Zantac.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So, yeah. Totally.

Evan Brand: Keep that in mind. If you’re looking at your medication list and that includes acid blockers and you have cold body temperatures, it’s probably cause you’re not digesting your foods therefore the thyroid is not getting fed the nutrients it needs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Totally. And also a lot of medications could affect your mitochondria. Just Google antibiotics and mitochondrial function, you’ll find that antibiotics can negatively impact mitochondrial function. And you’ll also find that other medications can impact the mitochondria. And the mitochondria is like the little powerhouse of your cell where it generates a lot of ATP, which is that currency of energy in which your body runs. So that’s really important and also an important nutrient call carnitine really helps that mitochondria utilize fat for energy, generate ATP out of that good fat, you know, it’s called uh—beta oxidation where you’re generating energy from fat. And carnitine is an important nutrient primarily made from methionine and lysine. Now, I did a video call why vegan and vegetarian diets can make you fat? Now—no—don’t make you fat. But you know, why they the can—meaning it’s not a hundred percent. But if you’re insulin resistant and you’re doing it the wrong way, where you’re emphasizing maybe too much carbohydrates, not enough protein and more gut irritating foods, yeah, it can definitely predispose people that have an inflamed guts and work more on the insulin resistance side to gain weight. And one of the big things is that when you eat certain animal rich amino acids, there are some plant ones as well, you activate the cells in the brain that are called—hold on, one __my notes—uh—tenocytes. And these tenocytes are receptor sites in the brain in the third ventricle area of the brain. And there’s a direct blood flow between them and the hypothalamus. These tenocytes, one, they sense satiety but the big thing that senses satiety for them is arginine and lysine which are really high in animal-based foods. So these amino acids really get that sense of satiation so that means you’re one, gonna have appetite regulation. Coz when you actually start feeling full, you tend to not eat all the crap, right?

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So the more you can keep your cravings in check, the more you eat healthier foods because you got control over your biochemistry. You’re not reacting. You’re acting based on what you know you need to be healthy. But those amino acids are primarily gonna be higher in animal-based foods especially lysine as well.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well said.  So in a roundabout way, if you are a vegetarian or a vegan and you’ve got low body temperature, it could just be something as simple as a carnitine deficiency. I mean you could probably get a little bit in beans maybe—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A little bit in beans, a little bit in almonds, a little bit in plums and avocados, for sure.

Evan Brand: But even then, once we talked like—we talked all the time, digestion of those foods is probably not very good and the concentration of those is gonna be much less as opposed to a grass-fed beef.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. In my video, I talked about, you know, if you are a smart vegan where you’re not emphasizing a lot of the grains, you’re doing safer starches, you’re getting lots of fats from avocado, olive oil, coconut oil, you’re supplementing DHEA in the form of algae, right? And if you’re getting B12 uh—supplementation and you’re getting a good multi- in there and you’re getting lots of— you’re getting some protein supplementation in there, maybe from pea or hemp, right? You may be okay on a vegan-vegetarian diet, but it’s just— it’s still less than optimal just because of the fact that you gotta go through such extreme lengths to get high-quality protein sources without all the carbohydrate. Coz vegetarian-vegan diet’s typically are packed with 60 to 80% carbohydrates for that 20 to 25% of protein you get.

Evan Brand: Yup.  Well said. You hit on the mitochondria, too. We should take  that a bit further and talk about more toxins. You hit on antibiotics, some mitochondrial issues there. Makes perfect sense. We work with people all the time where they say, “Oh Justin or Evan, as soon as I took a round of antibiotics, all of a sudden things went bad.” And it could be temperature –temperature issues, it could be sleep problems, it could be gut issues, digestive problems. And so also with mitochondrial issues, we’ve got toxins. So if you’re not using 100% organic, that’s an issue because glyphosate and these other pesticides and herbicides, fungicides and insecticides— they all compound with each other. So it’s not that one chemical by itself will kill you, but if you get a little bit of glyphosate from your non-organic berries, you combine that with a little bit of conventional vegetables coz you did a salad at a restaurant, you combine that with in antibiotics that you’re getting from meat. If it’s not labeled “no antibiotics” you stock all those upon each other, you’ve got some bad mitochondrial problems here that you need to fix. And we can measure the—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. The enzymes that are needed to help move those gears that  kinda crank around that mitochondrial Krebs cycle and then flow in so the beta oxidation process. Uhm— you need certain nutrients. You need B vitamins, you need magnesium, you need zinc, the healthy levels of amino acids. You also don’t need all the toxins— the aluminum, the pesticides, the glyphosate. So those things can kinda gunk up the gears of that metabolic machinery. So it’s not only what those gears need to keep it lubricated, but what it is we don’t need to put in that will prevent those gears moving. So it’s a combination of avoiding certain things, right? And again, the medications are a double-edged sword. I’m not saying don’t use them. I’m saying just really make sure they’re— they are prescribed specifically for what you need. And it’s the last case kind of thing with antibiotics. We really want to go to herbs and botanical nutrients over antibiotics. They may have a time or place, but we want to use it only when we’ve exhausted other options.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well said. And you and I were talking off air, we can quantify a lot of this stuff, too. So you’re talking about measuring your temperature. We can quantify what’s going on in the gut, right? We can test the gut, we can test the thyroid with—with blood using functional reference ranges and using functional numbers that conventional doctors don’t use. They’re only going to detect disease. We’re going to detect the issues before disease occurs. We’re gonna look into the gut so we could test you for infections. We could test the adrenals, look at your free cortisol rhythm so the uh— HPA axis, the hypothalamus, pituitary adrenal axis, you hear us talk about, you know, that is a factor in all of this. If your brain is not connecting the signal to the adrenals and adrenal to the thyroid, that whole system gets often chronic stress. And it’s up to us to figure out when we talk about stress what’s in that bucket. Is it just your job, your bad boss, your relationship, the divorce you’re going through? Is it that stuff only or is that stuff plus chemicals in the diet, plus nutrient deficiencies, plus infections, plus not having enough quality meat in the diet.  You see how these things can all add up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And just to kinda look at the thyroid component again, there’s dysregulation up top where the TSH is either high extreme, higher extreme, low. Now it can be extremely low because you’re on thyroid hormone and the body needs more thyroid hormone. The body is sense— sensing more thyroid hormone in the brain, but there’s less than the actual tissues. So that you’re keeping the thyroid hormone higher, but that’s keeping the TSH low. That’s step one. The TSH may be low because of HPAT access dysregulation. That hypothalamus pituitary and that adrenal thyroid axis. There’s some kinda short-circuits happening in there because of the stress— the emotional stress, because of the physical stress, because of the chemical stressors. And we have to address those while we support the nutrients to get this hardwire back on track. We can also have low T4 levels. Coz if T4 is low, we’re gonna have low T3 over here. So we got to make sure the nutrients for T4 in there like I mentioned before the vitamin A, the zinc , the copper, magnesium, selenium, uhm— amino acids, tyrosine and potentially iodine. As long as we know that there’s not uh— autoimmune attack that’s the lease active going on. And then number three, after that, we let see how the T4 to T3 conversion is. If T4 is good, how does T3 conversion look? Is it this big drop off? Or also is there a very high amount of reverse T3 because of that stress? All those can make a big difference. And then one person ask here—James asks, “Well, is hypothyroid and hyperthyroid hypo and hyper kind of the same for treatment?” Yes and no. With hyperthyroid from a TSI thyroid stimulating immunoglobulin or TSH receptor antibody attack, we’re more concerned about coz it tends to be more chronically high which can increase the chance of a thyroid storm and then potentially a stroke. So we take that very seriously. We refer that patient out to their medical doctor uh—for monitoring. We don’t want—we wanna make sure there’s not a stroke going on. But typically, the treatment will be, you know, PTU. Uhm—basically  uh—propylthiouracil or methimazole. Things to basically block iodine uptake to make thyroid hormone. Or though— you know, typically, go to a thyroid radioactive thyroid kind of ablation or even a thyroidectomy. I’ve had patients where we’ve been able to avoid those because we give nutrients to help modulate the thyroid response and modulate the autoimmune response like carnitine, like blue flag, like lemon balm, melissa uhm—into certain adaptogens. They could also help kinda dampen that response. There are some protocols that even show higher amounts of iodine can block that sodium uhm— iodine’s import that transfers iodine into the thyroid. So there’s a couple of different protocols you can use to help. And of course, all of the diet and lifestyle things are the same. But we take the Grave’s autoimmune attack a little bit more seriously just because of the repercussions of it not being treated appropriately, what will happen, we really want to sidestep those.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. So get the TPO antibodies checked. Get your eTG antibodies checked, you talk about the TSI. Now, have you seen where TPO TG would be high at the same time as TSI? Where it’s gonna look like Hashimoto’s and Grave’s at the same time?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It could. I’ve seen it before.  Yeah. It definitely can. So get—we’re  gonna really get patients on an autoimmune protocol to help lower any autoimmune attack from the food, from the gluten, from the leaky gut. And we’ll also work on blood sugar stability coz high and low blood sugar fluctuations have a major effect on the immune system.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Now another person asked here, the reason why you know I’m such a huge fan of how we do our podcast is coz it’s literally on the go and we’re infusing questions from people on YouTube here right into the conversations. So it’s like—remember those books you read when you’re like a kid and you read it and it’s like, “Oh, if you want the character to do this, turn to this page. If you want the character to do this, turn to this page.”  You can totally change how the book goes.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, it’s kind how our podcast are. So interjecting here uhm—, Gerald asked, “What about T3? How does T3 work?”  Well number one, T3 can just help support low T3 levels. And if there’s some kind of conversion issue, that can kinda biased time to fix the conversion aspect, number one. Number two, giving that T3 in the Wilson protocol uhm— that can have some effect on clearing out the receptor sites. So that now the T3 works better and binds better uhm— in the future. You can do that by starting low and then tapering up, holding it and then tapering it back down. In the Wilson protocol, Dr. Dennis Wilson does that with time-released T3. But we do a glandular’s in it. That can still be helpful as well. We’re using that as a way of clearing out the receptor site but were also not, you know, thinking that that’s gonna be the only issue. We’re also banking that there’s other things that we’re gonna be fixing that will allow it to be a long-term solution, right?

Evan Brand: Got it. So you’re saying the thyroid glandular’s can be used for low—a low  T3 situation.  That’s the fix that’s going to get you better enough to keep moving the needle in other departments.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct. Like in my line, we have Thyro Balance which is a—a really glandular uhm—nutrient thyroid support from a glandular perspective. And then we have that we have Thyro Replete which is nutrients for the conversion. So there’s some herbs that help with conversion like coleus forskohlii and ginseng and then we have the nutrients for conversion that I mentioned—the vitamin A, magnesium, copper, zincs, selenium—all of those—and tyrosine’s. We wanna make sure all those are in there. Uhm so we hit it from all angles. I mean if we knew exactly what that missing like nutrient component was, we could hit it more practically. But it’s too difficult to do that.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You’re better off using multiple methods to hit it. That way the patient can get better faster.

Evan Brand: Agreed. And you mention the adaptogens. I’m so glad you did. We use those all the time. I take them every day in some shape or form, whether it’s ashwaganda, holy basil, shoshandra. There are so many options and people ask, “Well, can I just take a bunch of adaptogens and fix myself?” Uhm— it doesn’t work like that. You just want to use them as one piece of your toolbox. You still want to be getting to the root cause. So adaptogens are life-changing but if there’s root causes, you can take all the adaptogens in the world and it won’t fix you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’m gonna take my ashwaganda right now—

Evan Brand: Perfect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A little bit of immune support. But I mean, like yeah, if you’re doing okay and you’re like, “Hey, Dr. J and Evan talked about some ashwaganda and some of these nutrients. I want to try it out.” Fine, go ahead.  But if you’re actively having issues that are you know, the symptoms that we mention here whether it’s on the hyper or hypo side, you really want to get someone on board to help guide you because it’s never just one magic bullet. It is—it’s a whole bunch of things that we’re doing together. And the more chronic it is, the more you have a you know, that momentum working against you. You got overcome that inertia to stop that— that snowball effect and start pushing it back uphill. So, yeah, if you’re in pretty good shape, fine you know just try some of these things. But if you’re in not so good shape, you want to reach out, for sure.

Evan Brand: Yep. Cool. Oh, we got time for one more question. Uh James said, “It’s not a thyroid question.” He’s taking an antibiotic for root canal this week. “Will this affect the result of organic acids test and stool test if he collects the samples while antibiotics are still in the system?”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I mean if we’re doing some of the genetic base testing, it shouldn’t have an effect on it. If we’re doing a stool base to antigen-based testing, then it would.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you should be okay but we’re doing the G.I. map which is you know, what my go-to is. It should be okay according to the lab. I try to avoid it— doing it. So I would say in a perfect world, if it’s not gonna delay your treatment, I would say get to the antibiotics give it like a day or two to let it wash out and then do it. But if uhm— timing doesn’t work out, just do it, get done.

Evan Brand: I would also look at Mercola root canals and read about those. I mean maybe you’re too far down the rabbit hole and you can’t avoid the root canal. But you know there are some other options you may have available if you’ve got a good biological Dennis maybe will sit down with you and say, “Okay, root canal’s option A but maybe there’s a option B C you could look at too because we’ve had a lot of people to come to us with infected root canals and maybe Jessica can speak on this a bit. But I’ve seen it as a big needle mover for people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. There’s a book by Ramiel Nagel that talks all about root canals. It is highly recommended. You take a look at it. Uh— fat-soluble nutrients, vitamin A, vitamin K are very helpful. Uh—oil pulling that kinda help extract any toxins that may be in there and you don’t want a root canal you want to get the tooth pulled out. Uhm— you want to get an implant put in using biologically appropriate material. You don’t want the gangrenous tissue still in the system without the blood flow. And the immune response to be able to get it is just a harboring place for a whole bunch of bacteria and viruses to hang out.

Evan Brand: Right. Yeah. Well said. So James, look into that. Maybe it’s not too late. Uh—hopefully, you’ve got some other options you can pursue it’d be much— much safer and much healthier in the long term. That way, you don’t have a hidden dental infection. There’s a guy named, Simon Yu that you and I should reach out and interview. He’s over in St. Louis he talks a lot about hidden dental infections. I think that’d be a good show.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay. Absolutely. Hundred percent. So couple of things we wanna talk about. Oh, also carbohydrate, I think is important. Again, my bias is towards a lower carbohydrate template—Paleo template. And again, I hate the word “diet” because it assumes something is temporary and it assumes that it is fixed; where a template gives us flexibility and modification and may change day to day. It may change uh—meal to meal. I tend to be very lower carbohydrate my first two meals of the day and then after that, I may increase in carbohydrate at nights uhm—you know a bit of the starchy based. So I’m very strict during the day. It’s high-quality. It’s— set—it’s 60 to 70% fats, the only carbohydrates are vegetables and then good proteins and then I go higher at night. On the carbohydrates side, maybe a little bit of sweet potatoes and some butter and cinnamon or maybe I have a—some dark chocolate or have couple more berries than I normally would. So there’s that component. So I always go lower carbohydrate to start because so many people are insulin resistant just because of the fact that we eat too much carbohydrate and were inflamed. So I always go lower carbohydrate to start and then typically, patient will do be better and will feel better because insulin resistance can affect T4 to T3 thyroid conversion, which can cause lower temperature. Now, in the double edge side of the fence, if people go too low insulin, they may also get poor thyroid conversion as well. So just like I mentioned cortisol has a major effect on thyroid conversion. Well, guess what? Insulin has a major effect on thyroid conversion. Type I diabetics— guess what? With low insulin levels coz of the autoimmune attack to the beta cells of the pancreas, they have low body temperature. So if you go too low carbohydrate, and this is for certain individuals not everyone, I know people are gonna be like, “But I’m low carbohydrate and I felt great and it reverse my low temperature.” I get it. Again, there are exceptions to every rule. There are tall Chinese people that play basketball even though they are more shorter in the population. There are exceptions to everything, okay? We got to get that in. So yes, there are some people that a low carbohydrate diet, the majority I would say would help partly because our consumption of refined carbohydrate and sugar is higher, but there are some people when they’re chronically load, they may increase that carbohydrate just a bit. And that ups the insulin a little bit which then helps that thyroid conversion. They’re like, “ Dude, my hair started to grow back better, my temperature’s better, my energy is better.” Boom! You at least now figure it out for you. So exceptions to every rule, figure it out. And uhm—if you feel great going low-carb, great, keep it there, hang out. But if you start getting some of those hypo temperature symptoms, then we’ll just ratcheted up a little bit.  And I primarily ratcheted up starting at night.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: They’ll still get the benefit of keeping it lower carb during the day.

Evan Brand: Well said. I mean that’s me in a nutshell. I went very, very, very low-carb ketogenic, I guarantee. I was probably ketogenic most of the time and then I started to get cold and so I added in some starch with dinner and all of a sudden my body temperature’s perfect now. I feel good. So uh—if I go too low-carb again, it may come back or if there’s a huge piece of stress on my plate, the low body temperature may come back. But for now, I’ve been able to reverse this and been able to clear out all the infections with your help in terms of protocol a couple of years ago getting rid of all my gut bugs, plus supporting adrenals, getting the diet dialed in, getting my sleep improved, blacking out my room. All of those things are still important. So I hope this has been helpful. I gotta run. You’ve gotta run, too. Uhm—or are there any last questions that we could answer? I closed out the chat window. Uh there’s just one thing I want to say is it’s not about being higher carb or lower carb, have a –have a foundational template which you— which you go back to and then you can customize it. And then if you increase carbs, you can still get some of the benefits by having that first 20 hours of your meals relatively lower carb, higher fat, moderate protein and those last four hours you pop up a little bit and so you can still get some of those benefits. If you’re like, “Oh, I feel better with higher carbs.” You can still get the benefits of the first 20 hours of your day kinda in that ketogenic state and then pop up the carbohydrates later. So it’s not an either or thing. We can kinda straddle the fence but we want to customize it. I don’t give a crap if—if low-carb is your missing link and being low-carb all the time helps you, that’s what we’re gonna do. If being low-carb and a little more high carbohydrate helps you out, I don’t care. I’m all about the results and not about what tool I have to use to get the job done.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. For me that looks like the breakfast like a pastured sausage, maybe a handful of macadamias, maybe a handful of organic blueberries. Lunch—I  probably do some leftover steak and veggies like a big thing of broccoli with some butter. Dinner— that’s when I may do some type of pastured meat, a little bit of some veggies and then starch, so it could be a medium-size baked sweet potato, butter, cinnamon. That’s all it takes and I feel good. So just to kind of give people an idea what is that look like. That’s what it looks like.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. That’s great. And a couple of questions here. Uh— Stephanie talks about menopausal women with lower estrogen and a low estradiol vaginal tablets. Well, this is interesting because typically low estrogen can cause hot flashes. And why does that cause hot flashes? Because typically the FSH and the LH starts to rise in the pituitary which is that signaling hormone trying to yell to the ovaries to make more progesterone and estrogen. So when LH and FSH primarily FSH goes high, that can create some vasodilation effects and create the hot flashes. So by giving a little bit of thyroid—giving a little bit of uhm— female hormone support, we can drop down that FSH then we can also modulate the receptor sites with some herbs as well to help with how flashes. Whether we use maca, or  we use dong quia, or black cohosh or raspberry root, or shepherds purse. There’s different nutrients or herbs we can do to help modulate that. So again, you could still have hypo, low thyroid issues, but have menopausal issues because of the low estrogens, which could drive the hot flashes up. So it’s kind of a conundrum. The hot flashes may—may overshadow this low thyroid thing over here. So as we get the female hormones fixed, you may notice the low thyroid comes back later on because it’s just not a secondary issue and the primary issue is the menopause. Once that’s ruled out, now this one comes to the surface.

Evan Brand: Got it. Well said.  We should probably do a whole show just on low estrogen if we haven’t.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think that’d be great. I mean, I see estrogen dominance is a big problem.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Where estrogen –the ratio of estrogen is higher than progesterone, right? So progesterone should be like this 25 to 125 times more than estrogen. But if that ratio starts to creep up where estrogen gets higher, that’s estrogen dominance. The problem is a lot of people, though, where that ratio—they’re estrogen dominant, progesterone’s slow but estrogen is also low. So they get this estrogen dominant, but also low estrogen sums at the same time. So it’s kinda like this conundrum. It’s like this little tug of war that’s happening there.

Evan Brand: Wow. Put it on this to do list. It sounds like it’s gonna be a fun one for us to dive into more. And I’ve probably got some stuff to learn from you on that topic as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think it’s great. Well any last questions, comments, or concerns, Evan?

Evan Brand: No. I think this has been good. People, you got to get the testing run because if you don’t test, you’ve guessed. So if you’re trying to figure this out on your own, even if you’re not working with Justin or myself, then get the test run. Find a functional medicine practitioner they can take care of you. We are accepting new clients, so if you do need help, feel free to reach out justin health.com evanbrand.com We run these labs on all of our clients because it’s the foundation. We’ve got to have the data. We’ve gotta have the puzzle pieces on the table; otherwise, you can’t move the needle. We could throw a bunch of random stuff at you might help, can’t hurt, but we want to get you better. There’s a systemic process that we do step by step by step to take you through this. So happy to help. Reach out if you got questions and thanks for tuning.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh! One last thing, man. I forgot to add.  This is so important. Low calories.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Just not eating enough calories will cause low body temperature. It’s shown to cause a low level T3. Now this is important because if your diet is 25% crap Ola and let’s say you’re eating 2000 calories a day and then we switch you over— we switch you over to a uh— autoimmune kinda Paleo template, but you’re only able to—to—to switch over 75% of your diet because you don’t—you don’t have enough you—you can’t replace all the crap that you’re eating with the good stuff, right?

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Because if you’re eating a whole bunch of crappy carbohydrates and stuff and then you replace it with a whole bunch of really good vegetables or lower sugar foods, well guess what? You’re probably didn’t replace the calorie amount either. So now you got this 25% calorie deficiency. So now instead of having 2000 calories, right? Now you’re having 1500 calories and maybe metabolically you need 2000 calories. Now you’re 500 calories in the hole which means your 500 calories deficient of various nutrients. So now your metabolism goes low coz there’s less fuel. That’s important. I see a lot. So you gotta  work with someone that really can make sure you’re exchanging the foods and you’re getting enough calories as well. Coz calories equal nutrition. if you’re eating real foods.

Evan Brand: I’m glad you mentioned that. That’s such a simple but common issue. If you’re going AIP, you are going Paleo, you’re eating real foods, you could have an entire plate full of broccoli and it may only be 50 calories.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Dude, great job. Way to kill it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And of course, the infections like you mentioned can really suck down the energy. Of course, acute infection, you know, you’re causing a fever, right? Because the immune system’s trying to up regulate itself because a lot of the bacteria and crap there uhm—they’re like—they’re mesophilic. They—they thrive in a medium temperature. So when you go a little bit higher, you can actually kill them off with a higher temperature. But these chronic bugs can really deplete the energy the body and create this kinda lower temperatures as well. For sure.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And I went—I went to low-calorie for a period of time, not intentionally, not on purpose. It just happened. I was eating meats, I was eating veggies and  I track my calories for a few days and I was eating m—and my activity level  and all that. I was probably 4 to 600 calories deficient. So just added in an extra tablespoon of butter here and there, half of an avocado here and there, handful of nuts and seeds. And I was right back up to where I needed to be.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Like here’s a seesaw right?

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So if like carbohydrate is here, if carbs go lower— this is fat over here. The fats have to go up.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you keep the fats here, you keep the fats on—on this side low, and drop the carbohydrates, that’s where the problem happens. The fats also have to go up. That’s the biggest issue. Proteins typically stay in the middle. Typically, proteins only go up if you’re doing a whole bunch of protein powders because proteins and fats are intimately connected. Uh so if you’re eating real whole foods, you know, it’s hard to get just proteins in whole foods, unless you’re doing maybe like venison or rabbit or like boneless chicken breast. But if you’re eating full fat foods, you’re gonna get fat. And then if you’re adding fats to your vegetables, you’re gonna get extra fat without the protein there as well.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So keep that at the back of your head.

Evan Brand: Perfect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Anyone listening here, give us comments below. Give us some shares. Give us some likes. We want to hear thoughts in the comment section. If you’re listening to us on iTunes, that’s great. Click below and subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can see Evan and I’s mugs going back and forth in our little combos here. And then you can give us some comments below here on YouTube. We love the see the feedback. And Evan, hey man, you have a great day. We’ll talk soon.

Evan Brand: Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Take care. Bye.

Evan Brand: Bye.

 


 

References:

justinhealth.com

evanbrand.com

https://justinhealth.com/products/thyro-balance

https://justinhealth.com/products/thyro-replete/

http://www.curetoothdecay.com/

Best Supplements and Nutrients for Detoxification

 

Best Supplements and Nutrients for Detoxification

By Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Types of Toxins

There are two main types of toxins that we are regularly exposed to, called endotoxins and exotoxins.

Exotoxins are toxic materials that come from the outside world and make their way inside us, for example, by eating or breathing them in. They include foods, cleaning agents, car exhaust, makeup, as well as much of what we ingest both topically and internally. They also include less-visible sources, such as radiation and electromagnetic stressors from cell phones and towers.

Types of Toxins

Endotoxins are toxins produced within our bodies, such as those produced by our gut bacteria or those formed when our organs incorrectly or incompletely perform a task.

Light to moderate exposure to the stressors listed above is normal, and improves the body’s ability to react to stress. However, too much exposure can throw our processing of these stressors into overdrive, which allows the toxins to hurt the body.

Modes of Detoxification

The human body has many modes of getting rid of toxins naturally; here are some of the main players in the human detoxification system:

Modes of Detoxification

  1. Skin: Sweating expels toxins through the skin. Detoxification the body leads to beautiful, glowing skin!
  2. Liver: The liver plays a major role in detoxification by preparing toxins to be expelled as urine or as bile.
  3. The Gut: A healthy gut is crucial for properly getting rid of toxins, otherwise, toxins may be reabsorbed through the intestines.
  4. Kidneys: Our kidneys filter our blood, diverting waste to the bladder to be expelled as urine.
  5. Lungs: The lungs bring in oxygen into the bloodstream while dispelling carbon dioxide out of the body.

Click here to consult with a functional medicine doctor to determine which supplements are best for you!

Detox Through Lifestyle and Supplementation

There are many ways to enhance your body’s natural detoxification systems, both by being conscious of your lifestyle and by adding in supplements.

Lifestyle awareness includes:

1. A Healthy Diet:Avoiding toxins in your diet, as well as keeping inflammation low, does wonders for keeping things running smoothly. Grains, sugars, bad fats, and processed foods are all toxic to your body. Grass-fed meats, healthy fats, non-starchy vegetables, and fermented foods are your friends!

2. Juicing: Juicing cruciferous vegetables can help the gut function at the top of its game, you can even add a little pineapple, green apple, or carrots! Just go light on the fruit, as it can be high in sugar and too much of that creates a fungus-friendly environment!

Detox Through Lifestyle and Supplementation

3. Consuming fat: “The solution to pollution is dilution;” well, in terms of toxins within our body fat, anyways! Most toxins are fast soluble so the body has a propensity to shuttle toxins into these fat cells. The body will then be more resistant to burning up this toxin-filled fat until it has the capacity to do so. By ensuring we consume enough high-quality fats, we can bind to the toxic fats so that our bodies are able to burn off and get rid of the toxins.

4. Infrared:Infrared lights and infrared saunas are great ways to detoxify.

5. Exercise:Exercise kickstarts your respiration and perspiration, and mobilizes body fat where many toxins reside.

6. Hydration:Drink at least half your body weight in water each day. Add lemon or apple cider vinegar to enhance the detoxifying effects.

Supplementation can also assist in getting rid of toxins:

1. Glutathione:Liposomal glutathione is the optimal source of this master antioxidant. Grass-fed whey is another great addition to your diet, as it is a precursor to producing your own glutathione within your cells!

2. Alpha Lipoic Acid:ALA has the power to regenerate antioxidants, and protects the mitochondria from toxicity. It is both fat and water soluble, meaning it can get to those pesky toxins hiding in fat cells that most other nutrients can’t reach.

3. Superoxide Dismutase (SOD):Breaks down superoxide free radicals, and is available either as a supplement or in foods such as broccoli, brussels sprouts, and wheatgrass.

4. N-Acetyl Cysteine (N.AC): Helps reduce the effects of chemicals and toxins in the liver, the recommendation is about two grams.

5. Chlorella and Spirulina: The chlorophyll in these two binds to toxins and improves the body’s ability to bring oxygen to the cells, which means the cells produce more antioxidants to fight toxicity.

Chlorella and Spirulina

6. Activated Charcoal:Charcoal binds to toxins on a molecular level, meaning they are unable to escape and are expelled through the stool. It’s so powerful that it’s used in emergency rooms for drug overdoses!

Activated Charcoal

7. Selenium:There is a strong link between being deficient in selenium and developing autoimmune disorders. Selenium binds to heavy metals, such as mercury, and can help flush them out of the body.

8. Milk Thistle:Boosts our 2 major antioxidants, glutathione and superoxide dismutase. It also protects the liver, thyroid, and immune system from radiation stress.

Plus, check out my Detox Store for antioxidants and detoxification support.

Liver Supreme provides liver support and contains milk thistle, which as we learned, is important for boosting antioxidants and protecting our organs from radiation stress.

Antioxidant Supreme contains NAC, ALA, and Selenium (among many other powerful ingredients) to help boost your antioxidant power.

Antioxidant Supreme

Detox Aminos contain NAC and glutathione, along with a host of other powerful detoxers.

Click here to schedule a free consult to determine what method of detox is best for you!

 

Sources:

https://justinhealth.com/detoxification-101-enhance-bodys-detoxification/

http://drjockers.com/10-daily-detoxification-strategies/

www.easyhealthoptions.com/help-your-liver-detox-your-body/

https://justinhealth.com/enhance-body-detoxification/

https://draxe.com/the-best-way-to-detox/

http://drjockers.com/7-supplements-to-detoxify-your-body/

catalyticcolor.com/redjuvenator-light-therapy/

Thyroid and Nutrient Deficiencies Live Q & A – Podcast #125

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand dive into an exciting discussion all about thyroid. Listen carefully as they engage in a dynamic conversation with the listeners and share some valuable information regarding their functional medicine approach on issues relating to thyroid; its connection to adrenal health, gut health, nutrition, and infections.

Learn about the hyper- and hypo- symptoms related to thyroid issues. Find out how other conditions like leaky gut and other infections are linked to thyroid health. Gain valuable information on different tests used to assess thyroid health and rule out other conditions contributing to thyroid issues. Increase your awareness about the different sources, like foods, supplements, and metals which all impacts thyroid function.

In this episode, we cover:

04:19   Thyroid and its connection to adrenals and leaky gut

12:50   Testing for Autoimmunity

16:42   Infections and Thyroid Health Connection

21:35   Cortisol Lab Test for Adrenal Issue

28:36   Thyroid Symptoms and Assessment

32:23   Iron

37:20   Gluten and its connection to leaky gut

54:23   Mercury

58:25   Iodine

itune

 

 

youtuve

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: YouTube as well. Any questions, feel free to type them in. Today’s podcast will be on thyroid. Evan, can you hear me okay?

Evan Brand: I sure can. You sound good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome, man. We are live. What’s going on, man?

Evan Brand: Oh, not too much. Like I told you, somebody in France has had a fun weekend with my business credit card. So uh – besides that, everything is good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool, man. Yeah. Well, at least you got a capital one card, so you’re pretty well protected, right?

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s awesome. So we’re live on Facebook and YouTube. Again, better to be on YouTube, my opinion coz you get to see Evan and myself. If you’re watching me on Facebook right now, we’re a little compromised. We only got my feedback. You’re not gonna hear Evan’s side of it. So feel free and check out YouTube.com/justinhealth to be able to see Evan’s pretty face and be able to get some questions there. But we will answer questions on Facebook Live, too.

Evan Brand: Cool. So today we wanted to talk about thyroid. There is many lab test out there that you can get. Still, conventional doctors are not running the lab tests that are important, though, some of these antibody markers, some of the reverse T3 markers. Maybe you should briefly chat about that just since people maybe on Facebook. Talk people through why is this happening? Why are these conventional doctors not running these other important thyroid markers? Why is it just TSH and some of the other boring stuff?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great question. And again, today we’re talking about thyroid and we talked about this topic a lot, done a lot of videos on it. I have a book coming out on this very shortly as well. So I’m just kinda do a brief overview. Feel free and check out Evan’s page not just Paleo.com and his podcast from more info as well as mine. We’ll give you more info here today. Hopefully we’ll be able to have a live interaction. But Evan’s question is for the Facebook live listeners. “Can we get podcast live on YouTube, too?” is the question about conventional thyroid issues versus functional thyroid issues. And this is a big difference, and most people they go and get help from their conventional physicians on matters of thyroid issues. They think that their conventional doctor is ruling them out for thyroid issues and they may, if it’s an extreme thyroid issue. You know, very, very high TSH, extreme thyroid swelling, uhm – maybe while hyper-symptoms if their grades are on the hyper side, or if they have a lot of thyroid destruction, or goiter things. They may get picked up by conventional testing, but many patients they aren’t getting picked up on conventional testing because they’re kinda in no man’s land. Conventional medicine looks at things like an on and off switch. You’re either healthy, right? The light’s on. Or you’re unhealthy, the light’s off. And we know in functional medicine world, that light switch is more of the dimmer switch, right? The light may be on halfway, right? You’re halfway healthy; or another way to look at it, you’re halfway to not being healthy. But it may not be all the way off. Maybe just flickering a little bit. And unless you’re all the way off, what’s gonna happen is they’re not gonna see anything wrong with your health issues regarding your thyroid. And they’re not gonna make any recommendations for interventions. And that’s the biggest problem. With thyroid issues, looking from the conventional to the functional medicine realm. And also, you have to look at the tools that they have right there. One tool – most part two, you’re gonna have some kinda surgical intervention or you gonna have some kind of uhm – pharmaceutical intervention. None of which typically fixes the root cause of what’s going on. Especially when we understand that thyroid issues are 90% autoimmune in nature. I’d say at least 50-90%. So we know if it’s autoimmune, and we don’t fix the underlying cause of why the autoimmunity is there, right? Then the underlying mechanism of the antibody is in the immune system attacking the thyroid tissue is still happening in the background.

Evan Brand: That’s terrible. I mean we’ve got thousands of people at this point who we work with, where they’re on thyroid drugs, and they still feel terrible. And I’ll go back and say, “Hey Doc, look, give up my Synthroid or other pharmaceutical, I still feel terrible.” And they’re just gonna up the drug more and more and more. So it’s like you’re jamming this gas pedal down, but you are not figuring out what’s the issue in the first place. And so for us, we’ll always gonna be looking at the gut; looking for infection; seeing what could be going on; why is there some type of attack going on. And then also looking at adrenals, too. And figure out what’s the adrenal thyroid connection. Maybe you could brief people on that a little bit? How someone with adrenal issues could have thyroid issues and vice versa.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So Evan, your question was looking at adrenals thyroid issues, we also have a listener question as well, talking about thyroid and gluten sensitivity. I’ll try to intertwine with the two answers. But again, adrenals are really important because you have cortisol production coming from the adrenals, which is important for managing stress and inflammation. Also, generally energy via blood sugar. Also, cortisol – is they differ healthy thyroid conversion. So if we have two high cortisol, or if your stress response is too high, we’re kinda in a Stage I adrenal issue that can block thyroid conversion. So we have this T4 thyroid hormone that gets converted down to the T3. And T4 is relatively inactive compared to T3.  So we have to make this conversion. There’s a lot of things that are needed for that, whether it’s selenium, or zinc, or vitamin A, or other nutrients to help make that conversion. But cortisol, from a hormonal perspective, is also needed. So if we’re too low on our response, right? We have this HPA axis, this regulation, the brain, the agent P, the hypothalamus and pituitary are hypo functioning. They’re dysregulated like a broken thermostat in your house – doesn’t turn on the heat, or turn on the air conditioning. That same thing is needed to help make that conversion from T4 to T3. So we have depleted adrenals that can strongly, strongly be an inhibiting factor of thyroid conversion. And also, if we have too much stress, one of the mechanisms the body does to regulate the stress response, is to make more reverse T3, which is essentially like taking uhm – the clip by the – your gun and putting blanks in there. So they kinda – they fit into the – into the magazine. They fit into the cartridge, right? But they fire, but that then you don’t get the same metabolic effect. You don’t get the increase in energy; don’t get all of the hormonal benefits; you don’t have the warmness and the increased blood circulation; and you don’t have the degradation of cholesterol and other hormonal byproducts. So you can see that the adrenals are intimately connected. Now answering the person’s question here on gluten. Gluten is really important because that’s a big strong – That’s a big stimulator of leaky gut. So gluten exposure can drive leaky gut. What it does is it increases zonulin, which unzips the tight junctions in a lot of patients, even people that are necessarily having a response to gluten. It shows that there is still uh – intestinal permeability that’s happening. And the more food particles that get into the bloodstream, the more LPS is in the gut, the more that can unzip the gut, the more – allow more food particles in there, and create more immune stimulation. And it’s also inflammatory in the gut, too. And also can create this concept known as molecular mimicry, where the immune system sees the surface proteins, and it can mistakenly identified it is the thyroid, and it starts attacking the thyroid tissue, creating more inflammation. And that can cause these thyroid follicles. So still, that hormone is creating unbalanced levels.

Evan Brand: And this could all come from gluten exposure, you’re saying?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It can all come from gluten exposure. Gluten is one strongest stimulators of leaky gut, along with distress, along with LPS, which is a compound produced from bacterial overgrowth, right? So the worse stomach acid, the more stress we have, the more essentially we’re not breaking down our food, the more we’re gonna have bad bacterial overgrowth that’s gonna increase LPS, that’s gonna unzip those tight junctions even faster, which is gonna create more immune issues, more food allergy issues. Because think about it, right? The immune system shouldn’t be getting revved up to deal with food; shouldn’t be getting revved up to deal with the digestion. So the more that’s happening- well what that means is that your immune system is going in overdrive. One of the major reason why people are when they’re sick – think about it. Because their immune system sucks up so much energy. So the more you’re revving up your immune system by just consuming food, you’re gonna be constantly tired. And that’s just gonna drain your adrenals, and drain your thyroid, and increase that thyroid autoimmune attack.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. So I mean, we got the zonulin. What’s the link there between the zonulin and LPS? So are these connected at all? Or are these going up and down in relationship to each other?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes. So the more zonulin you have, typically the more leaky gut you’re gonna have, right? So vitamin D is actually a zonulin inhibitor. So the more zonulin you have, the more leaky gut. So LPS will increase zonulin. Infections will increase zonulin. Gluten will increase zonulin. And that basically, if this is like Parker jacket, you’re wearing that’s kinda like unzipping those tight junctions and then basically food particles can get in there.LPS particles can get in there. When LPS flows to the brain and makes it way up to the brain, leaky gut, leaky brain that LPS can create inflammation in the brain which feels like brain fog, which feels like mood issues, which feels like depression, which feels like anxiety. And this is really hard for a lot of people. Getting back to Evan’s question on gluten and the brain, is people may have a gluten issue. Think that well gluten has to cause digestive problems diarrhea, bloating, gas, reflux constipation, diarrhea. But it may not – It may be causing depression, anxiety brain fog, poor memory, poor uh – just word recall. And you may have a gluten issue, but it may not be even because by – you know, you may not see it because it’s not those conventional symptoms. And again, that same thing is gonna create thyroid issues, too. Coz that same mechanism that opens up the lining of the blood-brain barrier and the brain, also affect the gut, which then creates that more autoimmune thyroid attack.

Evan Brand: Well said. And there’s a lot of people that justify eating gluten to us. Whether it’s like organic wheat, or they’re doing some type of like sprouted wheat, or something like that. But gluten is gluten, and even if you’re not celiac – now there is research that shows that celiacs are gonna have30 times higher zonulin levels than a non-celiac. So massive, massive leaky gut in the celiac person in comparison.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: But still, we could even talk about the study. It’s Scandinavian Journal of Gastroenterology. It showed that gliadin, which is a gluten protein can affect zonulin even in people without the gene for celiac.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: And so basically they said, “All gliadin, regardless of what – whether you are celiac or not, it’s still going to activate zonulin, therefore leaky gut, therefore this LPS, these endotoxins are gonna get in there.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: Which is crazy. And – and I love that. I love that the science because then you and I aren’t the bad guys when we’re telling people to get rid of gluten. It’s like, “Look, here is the research.” Yeah, maybe you don’t get a – acne from gluten, but you still causing leaky gut, regardless. I love that we can actually prove that and it’s not just up for – it’s not just our opinion coz we’re the nutrition guys.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s the key thing that you mention there, Evan. The zonulin and the gluten can trigger the leaky gut and you may not necessarily have an autoimmunity, and the question is the more stressed you become, the more compromised you become, the more your toxic burden, your stress burden, the more  your – the physical, chemical, emotional stress buckets get full. That’s where your body’s ability to adapt to stress really becomes inhibited. And again, the biggest mechanism really is, leaky gut. Even if you’re not necessarily gluten sensitive, you may be getting a leaky gut, which is adding stress to that stress bucket, right? It’s decreasing stomach acid; it’s decreasing enzymes; it’s increasing the ability to have food allergens; it’s increasing transfer infections and SIBO.Because the more your immune system is weakening the gut, the more that force field, that IgA gets lower, and the more critters can come in. So, yeah, 100%. And again a lot of people – I’m not a big fan of gluten because its, one: it’s hard to break down, it’s heavily pesticide, it’s low in nutrient density. A lot of the anthropological data shows that it’s been consumed only about 10,000 years ago, and the people that are consuming it typically have lower bodies – body stature, smaller in uhm – skeletal structure and increased risk for osteoporosis. Again, hunter gatherers tend to be more forgers uhm – starchy tubers, berries. Those kind of things, and obviously, meat and bone marrow. You study how the brain evolved. Really, it was the hand axe that allowed us to carve into bones and access bone marrow, and then creates spears to kill animals, and access that nutrients to grow our brains massively. Omega-3 is fat from the fish. So all of those things were huge in evolving our brain. Now, getting back to thyroid-We got a couple questions over here from the listener’s here on YouTube. So I’m gonna list a couple of. Couple is “how do you test autoimmunity?”Number one: kinda tying it back thyroid. We would look at TPO, or Thyroid Peroxidase antibodies or anti thyroid globulin antibodies; we’ll look for immune attack on the thyroid tissue. Also, we can look at TSI, immunoglubin, which is a marker for Graves’ disease, which is also a thyroid condition; or TSH receptor antibodies for the hyper- TSH receptor antibodies for the hyper; TSI for the hyper; and then TPO and thyroglobulin antibodies for the hypo. Now again, you can have the hypo antibodies, though, and have hyper symptoms initially. So you can kinda be on both stages at one point. So just kinda keep that in mind.

Evan Brand: And then more time, just so people are clear to that. Seems a bit confusing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A lot of people that start out with hyperthyroid – or sorry – hypothyroid antibodies, low thyroid function antibodies, the TPO and thyroglobulin bodies, even though those are markers for a hypo-, Hashimoto’s, they can progress into hyper- symptoms initially because your thyroid follicle have about four months of thyroid hormone stored in it. So what that means is, you can spill out that thyroid hormone many, many months before, even up to a year or so, before you actually get depleted and go low. And that’s where the TSH gets really high. TSH will go high as the thyroid gets depleted, but in the initial attacks, in the first year or so, you may feel more hyper- symptoms even though it is a hypo– Hashimoto thyroid mechanism that’s happening.

Evan Brand: Uh, got it.  Well said. Okay. So, people may self-diagnose themselves with hyperthyroidism, your saying that it could actually be a hypo-caused by Hashimoto situation that’s going on. They just don’t feel the full effects yet coz it’s a new – it’s a new attack. Is that correct?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. So the symptoms they may have is irritability, anxiety, mood issues, difficulty sleeping, heart palpitations, uhm – they may have like tired but wired kinda feeling. Those are the big things that they’re gonna have. I would say, yeah, the anxiety is gonna be a big one. Difficulty sleeping is gonna be a big one. Where the hypo- symptoms star to come in, again you may still have anxiety; you may still depression. The big differences is you’re gonna start to see the hair thinning because thyroid hormones are needed for hair follicle growth. So the outer thirds of the eyebrows go; the hair starts to thin on top; cold hands and cold feet it starts to happen. You may start to see constipation issue, too. You may start to see your triglycerides and your cholesterol go up. Again, infections can cause constipation, too. Uh – increase insulin can also cause increase cholesterol and triglyceride, too. So there’s other things. But that’s a general indication, is the cold hands, cold feet, the fatigue, the hair loss, the constipation and the increase in lipids you’re gonna see. That’s why you wanna test full thyroid panel, which is gonna consist of TSH, brain hormone, T4,inactive thyroid hormone (free and total), T3, which is converted peripherally 20%, and 80% throughout the body (free and total) and obviously you T3 uptake. You can look at thyroid binding globulin, which can go up or down if you have PCOS or on birth control. And then also reverse T3 and all the antibodies I mentioned.

Evan Brand: Yes. So I’ve also16:19read about another one that I’ve not seen used very much called TRAB, thyroid stimulating hormone receptor antibody, but it says that the antibodies are only ordered when someone is hyper- . And a positive result for that usually means great. So I’m not seeing that one that often, though.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s just a different name for I think the TSH receptor antibodies. Like TPO also has a like a name called,microsomal antibodies. So again, typically it’s the same names. So TSH receptor antibodies that’s probably another name for that, just like the microsomal is the same name for TPO.

Evan Brand: Uhh. Okay, got it. Now should we talk about – Is this is the time we should talk about the link between infections and thyroid health? Because people that were looking at, we’re not just gonna look at thyroid, we’re gonna look at the gut, too. And the average between us is about 1 in 3 of having infections. You know, every third person is gonna show up with infection. Sometimes even – you know those weak. Sometimes it’s 9 out of every 10 people has a parasite or other infection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. So we have a few questions coming on the uhm – YouTube Live board here that we’ll kinda tie in. But yes, so the big infections that can affect thyroid and can increase that thyroid autoimmunity: H. Pylori, okay, Yersinia, Enterocolitica, blasto, E. histo. Those are gonna be the big ones that are really gonna affect the thyroid. Even Lyme has a specific amino acid pattern that can create autoimmunity to the thyroid. So for sure, those are the big ones. You know, there’s been study showing that when you eradicate H. Pylori – It’s Italian study out there, that thyroid antibodies significantly drop. I have a video on blasto, right? Blasto infections are resolved, antibodies drop. Same with Yersinia, infections drop. As you attack Lyme, antibodies drop. So that can be a big stimulator and drive more leaky gut, more zonulin, more immune stress, which then creates more stomach acid and enzyme environments, which creates more adrenal stress, more thyroid stressed, and more nutrient deficiencies which perpetuate everything. So you can see, if don’t get to the root cause in this, that’s fine. You can go see your conventional medical doctor to make sure your TSH isn’t elevated, right? But in the end, you’re still gonna be suffering. And that’s why I have so many patients then I know you do as well that have all these symptoms. And I’ve seen a doctor for over a decade and are just tired of it. Alright, you know, this can’t just be my thyroid and all that we done is on 50 mics or 100 mics of Synthroid and that’s it. We can’t do anything else. They know there’s something more and that’s why they are reaching for people like you and myself, Evan.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well in toolbox, it’s just not there, right. I mean, it’s not their fault. They’re just doing all that they’ve got. That’s the only tool in the – in the shed. The surgery or wait till you have some type of disease, or some big nodule, or a goiter or something crazy. And now, okay, now we have to do surgery.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And a lot of people are talking about, “Well, what if you don’t have antibodies coming back on your thyroid?” My personal take on that is, above 40% comeback false negative. So it’s negative, but it could be positive. So what does that mean? Well, typically I’ll run the antibodies on someone at least three or four times before I say that they probably don’t have – they probably don’t have an autoimmune issue – at least 3 or 4 times. Now, the gold standard is a biopsy. Still going with a needle aspiration, and they poke it into the thyroid, they’ll if the tissues have any lymphocyte infiltration. So there’s an immune response going into the thyroid. So you can also have – you know your conventional physician palpate it. They’ll typically reach around your neck. So here’s my Adam’s apple, so it’s down just maybe a centimeter, and then out 1 or 2 cm. So it’s right here. And then you can typically run your finger right across it, then you can touch and push from one side to the other, and just feel the surface. See if it’s smooth, and then you can swallow, and feel that structure. And you can feel like a little nodule or a little bump and that’s possible. A nodule can typically mean autoimmunity or can mean an iodine deficiency. You can go to your conventional physician for that. I talked about the needle aspir –aspiration, but I don’t recommend unless you have – must you really want to know a hundred percent. The next more conservative approach would be a thyroid ultrasound to see if there is any swelling at all. Yeah. And that will be – those will be – My first line of defense would be, “Alright, let’s do your antibodies.” Second line would be ultrasound. I typically wouldn’t recommend the needle biopsy unless you are more worried about the cancer side of it, right? If I’m more worried about cancer then we may do that, or we may do a thyroid scan. But again, those are more invasive. I really only want to see those if we’re trying to rule out cancer. Coz typically the ultrasound and the antibodies will be the best. And we know, uncontrolled Hashimoto’s can lead to cancer, right? It increases your risk of cancer. So everything we’re doing is actually decreasing someone’s thyroid from progressing to a mandibular, papillary, follicular cancer. That’s – that’s the goal. So regarding that piece, everything we’re doing is gonna work either way because we’re mitigating the gluten in the food; or reducing the infection load; or upping the nutrients to help lower antibodies and help the thyroid convert; or making all diet and lifestyle changes and getting rid of the infection, which are gonna help improve the thyroid conversion, activation, and  the upstream signaling downstream.

Evan Brand: Early on in the chat, someone asked, “How should one read the cortisol lab test for adrenal fatigue?” “What numbers indicate the issue?” That’s gonna depend on the lab. Justin and I really like Biohealth, especially because they’ve got a brand-new test that were using now, which is six-point cortisol test. So any practitioners that are using a four-point cortisol test on you-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Yup.

Evan Brand: They’re outdated. They need to get with the –the times. With the 2017, six point is the new one. And how can you read the numbers? Well, typically there’s gonna be like a high patient line, a low patient line and then you would wannabe right in between those sandwich. And it’s gonna depend. So other labs are gonna have different – you know, different markers, different reference ranges. So for us to read a reference ranges to you, will be really boring. Uh – but basically long story short, you wanna be perfectly sandwiched in between those two lines. And it’s very rare that we see somebody in that. Most of the time we’re gonna see a low cortisol picture. And this is a low-free cortisol.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Exactly.

Evan Brand: They’re gonna be low pretty much all day. And this is for most people. And so, then we have to keep digging deeper.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: We don’t just throw them a bunch of adrenal support and say, “goodluck” We gotta figure out what – why is this happening?  Is there a lot of emotional stresses, or chemical stresses, or thyroid issues, or parasites? And these are the other pieces of the puzzle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So you made some really good points there. So with the adrenal, the car test, the adrenal, the uhm – the cortisol-adrenal response, especially in the morning. Cortisol starts off low in that first initial bit of waking up, and really pops up in the first half-hour to one hour after waking. So Evan and I are looking more at those types of test to see how that cortisol awakening response is happening in the morning. Coz cortisol is so important for thyroid activation to prevent T3 pooling, which is T3 not getting into the cells, as well as to prevent reverse T3 up-regulation, right? Reverse T3 is the uh – the blanks. The blank bullets that fit into the magazine that prevent the real bullets from getting fired. The real thyroid hormone being the real bullets, upregulating your metabolism. So those are the things that we’re looking at. And I agree, cortisol, and low cortisol, and low thyroid can intimately feel the same, right? We have patients sometimes that will feel like, “hmm, do they have a thyroid issue or adrenal issue?” We’ll run both test and we’ll see their TSH is, let’s say: 1, 1.5; T3 is at 3, 3.2; and their conversion is okay. But we’ll see, “Oh, yeah” their cortisol awakening response is terrible. Their cortisol is low; their DHEA is depleted. If they’re female patient, their hormones are off, right? So we’ll see. We’ll be able to  differentiate the two. And if you’re just going based of a symptoms, and trying to self-treat yourself, it’s gonna be really hard. You start going in one direction over the other. You may not get better. And a lot of patients, they instantaneously wanna go get their thyroid supported and treated first. The problem with that is, you increase thyroid hormone levels, and you already have lower cortisol. You can actually lower your cortisol even more, right? Just go google uhm – Addison’s disease, which is cortisol failure, right? – Addison’s disease, contraindications – And one of the contraindications you’ll see on their thyroid hormone because thyroid hormone can actually lower cortisol more. Coz think about it, right? Thyroid increases metabolism. The more your metabolism is increased, the more you metabolize through your hormones as well. So if we lower our hormones, and you are already at super low cortisol to begin with, you can actually feel worse as well. A lot of people feel worse when they just go after their thyroid and it can really create more problems.

Evan Brand: Wow. Now that you say that, I’m picturing a woman last week who, she was on Levothyroxine for a very long time. Her cortisol levels were like the lowest I’ve ever seen. So I wonder if it’s that drug that’s contributed to her cortisol being even lower than it would have been without the drug. What do you think?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You can see patients that they go on their thyroid support, and they start feeling worse. And it’s just – it’s really difficult because if they’re seeing a functional medicine practitioner, they may lose faith in that person, right? And – and just say, “Hey, I’m just gonna keep on doing what I’m doing. I’m just gonna go back on the Synthroid.” So you have that aspect there, right? And then uhm – also have the fact that you know, what’s primary? A lot of people have in – the adrenal issue is the more primary issue. And if we start treating that first, then we may get the patient feeling better, which then creates more compliance. The more compliance, the more – the more the patient’s gonna follow through on diet, on lifestyle, on addressing infections. And that gives us a better chance to leverage the patients to do the right thing to heal.

Evan Brand: Well said. And plus, if the adrenals get back online, then we know that that conversion from T4 to T3 active is gonna be better. So they may not even need to go to the “thyroid support” if all these other root causes were the biggest thing. I mean it’s a parasite and an adrenal problem. If you fix those two things, is it possible you can get away with never going into, “Hey this is your thyroid program now. We just have to fix the other pieces.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. So uhm – looking at that piece, you’re hundred percent right. I see so many patients, we’ll measure their thyroid temperature like their basal temperature. And again, for basal temps: 97.8 to 98.2 °F is gonna be where you wanna be for your armpit axillary temperature; and then98.2 to 98.6 °F is oral temperature. And typically do that in the morning before you get out of bed. And also do it sometime in the afternoon before you have lunch, and kinda do a general average. And again, a lot of people will be relatively low, and they’ll start to see their temperatures start going up uhm – as we treat the adrenals. One of the big things we see with the adrenals is we see an erratic temperature. The temperature is kinda bouncing around. Anything greater than .3°F can be – can lead to be a sign of a potential adrenal issue via a temp.

Evan Brand: Let me ask this. Let me ask this with you. So you’re saying, .3 difference. So that would mean if you woke up one day and you tested your armpit temperature, let’s say you were 98° flat in your armpit before you got out of bed, then the next day, you’re at 98.3. To you, that’s gonna signify thyroid and adrenal issues. Is that right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So we went from 98 to 98.3?

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So it’d be greater than .3 So if you’re 98-98.4 and we’re consistently seeing this back-and-forth oscillation, so we’re seeing 98, 98.4 or 97.9 and it’s constantly bouncing back and forth greater than .3 that could potentially mean an adrenal issue, right? And because it’s erratic, but at a good level of temperature 97.8 or higher. So we typically mean of an adrenal issue. If we see it low and erratic, let’s say, 97, 97.4, 96.9 to 97.5, then that would potentially be an adrenal and a thyroid issue. And again, temperatures aren’t perfect, right? Like when we assess thyroid, there’s three indicators we use. We use subjective, which in my opinion is the most important. How do you feel? Do you have a lot more hyper- or hypo- symptoms, right? Hyper- symptoms being anxiety, palpitations, mood issues, tired but wired.

Evan Brand: What about sweating? Increased sweating?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: – sweating, irritability, difficult sleeping. Where the hypo- symptoms, again, you can still have the mood stuff; you can still have the anxiety and mood stuff; you can still have some tired and wired – some tired and wired

feeling but typically more tired, though. And then the big thing is the cold hands, the cold feet, the thinning hair, the thinning eyebrows, the constipation. Those are gonna be the big differences. And obviously what trumps any of it, is an increase in TSH or thyroid antibodies are gonna be the biggest distinguishing factor, if it’s TPO or TSH receptor antibodies.

Evan Brand: And I just wanna mention one thing, too. In a lot of cases, the people we’re working with are gonna have both hypo- and hyperthyroid symptoms which can be equally confusing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. Yup. Equally confusing. I mean we look at like the test that we give our patients to assess that uhm – right? The other big one’s losing weight. Losing weight uhm – even though you’re – or unintentionally gaining weight if you’re on the hypo- side or unintentionally losing weight if you’re hyper- side, right? That’s gonna be another, another big one. Elevated cholesterol – another, another big one. So those are a couple of the other ones that I mention there where the anxiety, the excessively sweating, uhm – again, hands shaking, difficulty sleeping, uhm – feeling more warm on the hyper- side. Those are gonna be the other big ones. And obviously having a family history. If your mom, or your aunt, or uncle, or your sibling has a thyroid issue, right? That’s gonna be a big – just, you know, big factor. One of the big questions I do in all my intakes is, are there celiac disease or any autoimmunity that runs in your family? Whether it’s thyroid, or Parkinson’s or MS, or ulcerative colitis, or Chron’s or anything autoimmune related, type I diabetes. And if there is, that really gets me to hone in there. But testing for autoimmunity, conventional medicine typically does it like ANA, or HLA-B27, or an RA Latex like – these are like the conventional, like broad markers for like scleroderma, or like – or celiac, right? Or see, rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus. They’re very non-specific a lot of times. And again uhm – and they typically are late stage markers. It takes a while for them to pop-up.  And again, a lot of people they may be asymptomatic and still have them. So it’s not a real motivating factor for a lot of people. Where some of the things we look at it with the thyroid antibodies, well even just a little bit above like the normal range. So like LabCorp, it’s 33 or 36 for the TPO. Where I think the thyro – the thyroglobulin antibody is anything greater than 1 is positive. So if we’re like at 1.5 or 2, you know – we will look at that and we’re gonna really push for autoimmune changes and autoimmune protocols. We see TPO going above 20, we’ll start to say, “Hey, you know, you wanna be careful with this.” And we’ll keep an eye on that. And then we have the – you know, people are on the thousands on the antibody levels. And we’ve made this change and I’ve seen 70, 80% drops. We take a patient from 2300 down to like 3 to 400, which is a massive drop.

Evan Brand: And so that’s diet, that’s lifestyle, removing infections, supporting adrenals. All those pieces, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. And I got a question here on FacebookLive. I’ll try to connect it in here. And again, I apologize for Facebook Live listeners here. If you’re watching us there, check out the YouTube so you can actually see Evan. I’m gonna try to reiterate the questions so that you can hear it. Uhm – but that will be the best way to get the full conversation. Regarding uhm – question on Facebook Live, he’s talking about iron. Now, iron is really important coz it’s a really important building block for thyroid hormone. And we also need triiron for thyroid activation from T4 and T3, and we need it for just generally carrying oxygen to ourselves, which is really important for cellular metabolism. So if we have low iron levels that could be an issue. Now I did a full video this for people to get back to the iron video to get like the specifics on that. But again, typically we’ll recommend, like in my line, we use an Iron Supreme. It’s a Ferrous Bisglycinate. And we’ll do about 25 milligrams of iron, anywhere between 2 to 4 times a day to help support that. But also, we’ll figure out the root cause. Coz a lot of females, it’s excessive menstruation or hemorrhage. It could be vegetarian and vegan diets, or it could be the x factor of malabsorption from gut inflammation, to low stomach acid and enzymes and not being able to ionize minerals to an infection that’s stealing your minerals.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I’m so glad you brought that up because here I am thinking about myself, and the whole time, I had two parasite infections.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: I guarantee I have low stomach acid. I guarantee I had issues with iron absorption. And people, let’s say, even if you’re eating the best organic grass-fed beef, if you got an infection that is causing stress on the gut, therefore reducing stomach acid; therefore reducing the ability for you to cleave off those amino acids and iron from them – from the meat, you can still have trouble. And what about – what about ferritin, too? Because the iron storage protein, that’s what we’re gonna test. For many times, you’re gonna see, especially women have very, very low ferritin levels where – and you’ve got a woman with ferritin levels you know – in between say 20 and 40. You may be experiencing something like breathlessness, for example. You could definitely have hair loss falling out. Sometimes I’ll hear women say when their ferritin is about 20, let’s say their hair is falling out in clumps. So you wanna get ferritin, which is the iron storage protein. You gotta get that levels tested, too. And we like people to get up, you know, 60, 70, 80 with ferritin just to ensure that – that iron storage protein is actually working. Now – and this is something that I haven’t looked at very often, but I’m curious if you know Justin, if you’ve got low ferritin, are you always going to have low iron as well? Or is it possible that with low ferritin, your iron could still check out okay?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So with lower ferritin, iron serum can pop up, and it can pop up because – imagine like ferritin is like the gasoline that’s in the gas tank, right? And then think of like iron serum is like the iron is actually in the carbonator and then the piston’s ready to be – ready to be combusted, right? So one’s like – iron is like, what’s ready to go that’s in the actual engine and carbonator; and ferritin is like, what’s in the gas tank, right? So obviously the more important one is gonna be what’s in the gas tank coz that gives you the bigger picture, right? You don’t care, you know how much – how much engines – how much fuel’s in the carbonator. It will only take you maybe a couple of hundred meters, maybe a mile. I don’t know, I’m not a big car guy, so – But keep that in the back of your mind. Now the difference is your body has a little bit more of an interplay with other systems. So inflammation can increase iron serum. So that’s why we look at ferritin, but then we’ll also look at it with iron saturation, too. We see iron saturation low, below 25, when we see TIBC or UIBC on the higher side, that means your binding proteins are growing more and more fingers –  to have more iron. And if we see iron serum up, then we’ll be like, “hmm, maybe there’s some inflammation” We may wanna look at C-reactive protein, right? We may want to look at some of those inflammatory markers. Uhm – if we’re running a gut test, you may look at lactoferrin or calprotectin and see it – inflammation is occurring in the gut. So it really depends on what else is happening in the body. Does that make sense?

Evan Brand: Yeah. It does – it does. So, if you had to pick one or the other. Let’s say, somebody only gave you the option to run some of the specific iron markers or ferritin, what would you pick? For me, I think – I feel like I’ pick ferritin, if I could only pick one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean, ferritin for sure. But an iron panel is like 30 bucks. There’s no reason –there’s no reason why anyone should nickel-and-dime on that because you don’t wanna compromise $30 getting a complete picture. So I think we run it. We keep doing it for 30 bucks and that’s everything.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that gives you the ferritin, the iron serum, and that gives you the UIBC, the TIBC, the iron stat. So then you have a real complete picture of what’s happening. And then you know, even just looking at someone’s CBC can be helpful coz you can look at red blood cells, hemoglobin, hematocrit and if that’s starting to go low, then we can look at MCH, MCB, MCHC, which is basically markers to see how big your red blood cells are, right? Smaller red blood cells typically mean iron issues; bigger red blood cells typically mean B12, folate and B6 issues.

Evan Brand: Wow. There’s another question. Actually there’s a comment up here by Tonya. She was talking about how she was able to eat gluten and dairy now after she had infections. And I guess she treated those, and now she’s able to eat gluten and dairy. I feel like that depends on the person. Me, personally even if I could get away with it, I still wouldn’t do it because you’re still gonna increase zonulin and leaky gut. Potentially set yourself up for future infections.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. That’s the problem, right? Disaster doesn’t occur in –a day or a week, right? And we know that leaky gut can still happen even without the symptoms, right? We – there’s just been studies where they’ve given people pieces of gluten and they measured symptoms, they didn’t see necessarily an increase in symptoms or negative side-effects. But they saw this increase in zonulin and leaky gut because of it. Now we know that when that happens, you increase your risk of having other issues. So I know there are people right now, we get the same conversation. We’ll be talking to people that have been able to smoke cigarettes and not get lung cancer. Okay, great. Now, does that mean that you’re gonna go out and recommend smoking cigarettes to anyone? No. It’s still not gonna be beneficial. It’s still gonna be inflammatory. It still increases your risk. You don’t know who the people are that are gonna have the negative effects to begin with, right? It’s all like you have that looking glass that you can see in know. And also uh – you don’t know down the road when stress comes on and other things happen. Coz usually it’s not just one thing. It’s like, “great, now this person who’s talking – their stress bucket, they’re already filling it halfway.” So they’re going into with a half-full of stress bucket thinking that they’re okay, right? Alright. So, I got a half full of stress bucket. So now when other things come into their life, they’re gonna overflow faster.

Evan Brand: Agreed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then also – and also other people, that may overfill their stress bucket right away. And so that’s why you have to make sure that you know that some people may be the exception to the rule. They aren’t the rule. And this is where it’s –We have the advantage, Evan, because we see so many thousands of people that we can make correlations and can actually even see causation because we make changes and we see direct changes in the person’s physiology and their symptoms are getting better. So we can’t make – we can’t create all these protocols for the exception to the rule coz there are so many exceptions. There are people that smoke and don’t get cancer, alright? We know that. People that may consume gluten and may be okay, but the majority may have issues. Or they may set themselves up in increased stress bucket, right? Meaning increase their ability to handle less stress, so that when more stress comes on, boom, now they’re laid up.

Evan Brand: Exactly. Yeah. Tonya we had to put you on the chopping block there because for you commenting about saying gluten and dairy and you can get away with it now. You’re speaking for thousands of people that listen and do the same thing. And Justin and I will look at the symptoms of someone, and if there are still health complaints that haven’t been resolved, then let’s say we get the retest on GI-MAP stool test, and we look at antigliadin and antibodies, and I caught the lie detector test. I don’t know if you do, Justin. But it’s uh – when you get the antigliadin antibodies, it’s like, okay, one of three things happen. Either you’ve got gluten, you ate gluten, or you’ve got cross reactivity going on. And so, even if your symptoms are not supposedly there, your body is still fighting internally. There is still this internal battle going on, which is not what we want because then those antibodies can get confused and start attacking other tissues, which we don’t want.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And it’s tough because there are people that we see eat a diet that is you know – highly processed with a lot of carbs. And their blood sugar is relatively okay. And that maybe because they’re naturally more insulin sensitive, or they exercise more. And we see some people that eat the same diet, and they’re diabetic. So what do you do? Like I can’t sit there, and say, “well this person who eats this way isn’t diabetic” that means that diets is fine. No, it’s not. You have to look at the greater picture. You also have to look at what – does that diet now, is it nutrient dense? Is it anti-inflammatory? Is it low in toxins? And no, it’s not. But again, don’t get me wrong. Like dairies are open-ended topic, right? Ghee may be perfectly great. Butter maybe perfectly great.  Raw milk may be perfectly great for some people. But then we go to the pasteurized dairy, we go into more of the yogurts, which could be great, but it may not be. So do – we have to kind of uhm – can have a criteria for all those different compounds, right? Because some dairy may be okay, some may not be okay. And sometimes bread, too. Some people may do okay with bread over in Europe. Or they’ll do fine with sourdough bread coz it’s fermented and has less gluten in it versus, let’s say, wheat bread here that’s conventional. So you got to look at it, too. Some of those things may be okay and may have to be more specifically talked about.

Evan Brand: Yup. She commented back. She says, we’re missing the point. If parasite is the cause, you can go back to the way you were, prior to eating – oh the way you were prior, like eating gluten. We as people, ate gluten for a millennia and now it is the cause of all ills. I’ll comment on it first, and then I’ll let you say something about it. In the modern world, we have a lot more toxins. We have a lot more things that we’re up against, and so gluten, where maybe only would have change someone’s health 2 or 3% 5000 years ago, now,  has the ability to modify someone, tell 50 or 75, or even80% in some cases. We’ll see 80% of symptoms get better without it. So for me, comparing millennia to the modern world, we’ve never had a world like today. So it’s just not really a valid argument.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And the grains aren’t even like– If you look at the biblical grains, they talked about in the diet, and Dr. William Davies totally debunks this. If you look at the grains 2,000 years ago, reference in the bible, these are 12 chromosome uh – grain products versus the ones that they have right now, they’re hybridized and genetically modified, they’re up to 50 chromosomes. The gluten content is much higher and is also the extra stress of potential GMO nutrients, poor soils, as well as pesticide exposure. So it’s not quite the same way. Plus, people have to look at it from this perspective, if you drive around on your car, and you get a flat tire on your car, right? And you change the tire and you put the little – let’s forget that. Let’s just say you’re driving around on that flat tire for like a year, okay? So the flat tire is the cause of what’s happening here. But you drive around the flat tire for a year. That’s like ignoring the stressors of your health. It could be gluten. It could be parasite. But the longer you drive around on the flat tire, the more you front angles out of alignment; the more your suspension goes out of whack; the more your whole shock system in the car becomes stressed. And even if you decide, let’s say a year later, I’m gonna change that tire and put on a nice, fresh tire, which is like cutting out the gluten, managing stress, managing sleep, your car has been compromised where just changing the tire won’t fix it. You’re gonna have to go in for a full frontal alignment. You may have to get your tires rotated; you may need new shocks; your brake pads may have worn unevenly. There’s so many other issues that may happen with the car that where collateral damage from that flat tire being ignored. So just because you, let’s say, it was a parasite issue, and the parasites are now gone; or it’s a gluten issue, and the gluten’s now gone, doesn’t mean you now have nutritional deficiencies; doesn’t mean your enzymes and HCL are now effective; doesn’t mean your thyroid and your adrenals hormone system are now stressed; doesn’t mean your detoxification systems are now stressed, right? So this is what is happening. And other analogy is you’re in debt for 5 years. Great. You stop – you curtail your spending habits but you don’t get out of the hut – but you don’t get 100 grand out of debt by just changing your spending habits today. You need a bailout, or you need a lot more time just to start saving and get that money back up. Does that make sense, Evan?

Evan Brand: Yeah. Or the analogy of the spider web.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: Where there’s other pit of the web that’s affected, too. So for example, we can use me as an example. You look at me when uh – first time I came to your house. You’re like, “Evan, man, you look like you get a parasite.” You just- you just saw it. And I was like, “okay” It’s been a year plus since I’ve eradicated those infections, but I still am using enzymes and HCL because I was in such hypochloridic state that I still need to use supplemental HCL and supplemental enzymes. And I don’t really have an end date in mind where I’m not going to use enzymes because if I’m busy, or If I feel like I’m just not chewing my food as much as I should, to me, I like that nutritional insurance policy in place.

Uhm – there’s another question too that Chris asked earlier. He said, “not to be the dead horse, but isn’t there another marker to show autoimmunity of failsafe?” I guess since he’s asking because a lot of times –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I already answered that one with the ANA and the conventional ones.

Evan Brand: Oh, okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then the TPO. And also the gliadin antibodies be the stool testing we do. And then there’s uh – a test by Cyrex Lab that looks at leaky gut, which could give you a predisposing marker, where it looks at zonulin and occludin toxins which can open up the tight junctions. So that one will be another one when I look at.

Evan Brand: It’s pricey. Have you run that one often? The Cyrex, I mean, it’s like 600 bucks.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I’m not a big fan of that because it doesn’t tell me any of the cause. So if people have infections and their diet is not good, and they have – we’re seeing a low stomach acid and low enzyme environments, it’s not worth it. We just kinda work on treating the cause and then a lot of times, the clinical picture changes. Peoples bloating in gas and all these symptoms improved, which we know that means their digestion is getting better, their absorbing more nutrients. That means there has to be a leaky gut mechanism happening. I’m a bigger fan of looking at causal test versus the effect test. The effect tests are only good if you’re trying to convince someone or that people are skeptical. But once – people that are coming to see us are very intelligent because they’ve already educated themselves. They listen a lot to podcast. They read lots of blogs. They watch a lot of videos. They already get it. They don’t need to be convinced. They just wanna be fixed. So it’s a different mindset with those people.

Evan Brand: Agreed. Well said. And we don’t have people that need to be convinced they have leaky gut. Most of the time, they’ve already self-diagnosed themselves. In many cases, you don’t need to spend – I’d say99.9% of the cases, you don’t need to spend the money on a blood test that’s gonna say you have leaky gut. We could just list off symptoms – boom boom boom. Yeah, you probably got leaky gut. Cyrex, for their food sensitivity test, that is – that is cool one, but even then I feel like it’s a unnecessary in most cases because if you and I are gonna put somebody on like a AIP approach, let’s say thyroid disease did show up, some Hashimoto’s. We’ll have to go AIP and maybe we could try to reintroduce things. But they’re gonna be able to be a better barometer of Austin than the test in most cases. Like, “Oh when I added dark chocolate back in” or “when I added dairy back in” and this is what happen. I feel like that’s more valuable than a blood test.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: Totally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We’ll do a full autoimmune elimination protocols and it’s gonna be very valuable for 90% of people. We’ll go an autoimmune diet, cutting out nuts, seeds, nightshade, eggs, obviously grains, legumes, dairy. And again, for people that are like the gluten fans that are on the message board here, they still aren’t nutrient dense food. If you look at the nutrients, if you look at the other compounds that aren’t gluten-related, right? Let’s look at the fact that some people are intolerant. They just can’t break it down because they’re missing the enzymes to do that. And that any time the food is not broken down, it can create stress in the body just like people that can’t break down lactose. They’re lactose intolerant and then they have diarrhea and bloating. So, some people just may be intolerant to breaking down the protein. Some people may be increasing inflammation because of the lectins and the phytic acid and then the oxalates that are just shutting mineral absorption. Other people may be having the autoimmune issue. So it’s still not a nutrient dense anti-inflammatory low toxin food. It’s not like there’s this missing nutrient that you can get out of gluten or out of these grains that you can’t get in some really awesome nutrient rich vegetables or healthy fruits with –or healthy starchy tubers. Does that make sense?

Evan Brand: Yeah. It does. Now – this is off-topic. But –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s not a missing link. That’s my thing. If people had to say that – we – could show me a nutrient density chart and say, “But Dr. J, you get these nutrients, or the zinc and this is amazing or this, B vitamins”. I’d say, “Okay, but there’s not that evidence that it’s there.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now a great – a great talk on this uhm – what’s his name, out of Harvard there – Matt Lalonde did a great talk at the Ancestral Health Symposium at 2012 on nutrient density. I highly recommend anyone watching that. But when you look at the nutrient density that you’re gonna get in meats, especially organ meats, it’s insane. It just destroys grains. And grains are the lowest out of all those foods.

Evan Brand:  Yeah. Now, we’re – we’re off-topic from the thyroid, but that’s fine because I love that’s it’s a dynamic conversation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It connects in, right? Because-

Evan Brand: It does.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -nutrients help in thyroid conversion, they help with thyroid activation, they help with the adrenal, which helps the thyroid cells. Even though we’re off-topic, we’re gonna do our best to kind of meander our way back to the thyroid.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Now, what I was gonna say was a bit off- topic, which is – well all you’re saying is totally on topic but what I’m gonna say is it’s funny how even some of these professional healthcare companies are now designing supplements, which I’m not gonna even give them the credit of naming these products. But there are gluten supplements out there, where it’s like, “here, go eat gluten, but then here is this enzyme or here’s this XYZ supplement to where you can still try to eat gluten, but you just take these pills with them instead.” It’s like, that’s ridiculous. That’s like covering up the engine light in your car. The light’s still there, but here’s this magic tape that’s gonna hide it. I just don’t think supplements that enable you to eat gluten is a good idea.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now, here’s the deal, right? If you have thyroid antibodies, if you know – if you have objective measures of autoimmune issues, or your heightenly celiac sensitive, another word is – almost like – almost like if you have gluten, like you’re laid up, like you’re just – you’re junk for days on it, I don’t ever recommend cheating with gluten. If you can manage, if you’re really healthy, and you don’t have severe thyroid or antibody markers popping up, then you could try going gluten-free you know, right? It maybe rice, or corn may be okay. If you do that, I typically recommend the enzymes, like the DPP-4 enzymes and we’ll take it with charcoal. But it’s a cheat, and we’re just trying to mitigate it. And we wouldn’t wanna ever do that as a staple to allow ourselves to eat gluten. Now, like myself, like maybe once year, like if I’m in Boston and I’m in the north end, I may have like a cannoli, but I found an alternative uh –modern bakery and get some gluten-free ones that are white flour-based. But if I go, I mean I’ll up the DPP-4 enzymes, increase the charcoal, and the vitamin C in the knack. And that will help me deal with it. Uhm – but again, that’s like – if you look at it, the 2000 meals I have a year, you know – maybe one or two have that in there, right? Not a lot. We’re talking .001% But people who are really, really sensitive or having gut over their health issues, initially you really wanna be puritanical. And then – I’ll kinda dovetail this with Johnny’s question here. Some of the testing that I will do to fine tune, if like patients are on the autoimmune, they kinda reintroduce things back in and they’re still having issues, and not quite sure what works, there will be some testing we’ll do like an MRT is a pretty good test. I’m liking the ELISA / ACT test as well coz it’s not just antibodies, it’s looking at various lymphocytes, too. And I do a combination of the ELISA and I’m – I’m kinda testing the MRT as well. And I’ll actually be doing some blind testing and sending some uh – different vials in with different people with actually my blood on with different names. I’m doing some blind testing on that. So hopefully I’ll do a video on that.

Evan Brand: You ought to try the, if you have it already, I believe it’s the Array 2. And there’s a couple of other Arrays form Cyrex, too. I’m a bigger fan of that than the MRT.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well the problem with Cyrex, though, it’s only looking at Ig or IgA – that’s the issue. So with the ELISA, it’s also looking at T-cell lymphocyte response and you’re not gonna get that picked up on Cyrex. That’s the big issue. And if you’re not exposed to gluten, let’s say we’re doing this test, and “yeah, I haven’t eaten gluten in a month or a couple of months” Well, if the immune system isn’t responding to it coz it’s not being exposed to it, it won’t come up in the test.

Evan Brand: Uhhh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And people will be like, “Oh, look, I’m fine.” But may not be the case. So you have to look at it in a complete spectrum.

Evan Brand: That makes sense. So the ELISA / ACT.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh- hmm.

Evan Brand: And that’s blood.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s blood. Exactly.

Evan Brand: Cool. That sounds great. Well, I feel like we should probably wrap this up. I know this has been a lot of information uhm – if people are interested in your book, then they need to sign up for your email list. I mean – you’re so passionate about thyroid health, it’s definitely infectious. And do we have a date on that? Of this thyroid book? What’s up with that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s done, man. I’m shooting it up to the editor. So we can buff it out and – and you know, I read all – every thyroid book on the market, I pretty much read. And my biggest issue is, you can summarize every thyroid book in like 5 pages.

Evan Brand: I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So I want a book that’s shorter. It’s more condensed. I want every page to be neat. I want every page to be __I want every page to have like action items. People can walk away and really improve their health and then throughout – in a standstill, they can reach out to people like myself and you, to kinda like get to the next level. So that’s where I’m at right now – to fine tune and boil it down. I want to touch just one question. Dale mentioned it earlier, he talked about mercury. And mercury is an important aspect coz mercury can pinch it and affect the thyroid. There’s this study showing that lowering mercury can decrease thyroid antibodies. I have one patient that had thyroglobulin antibodies over 2000 and we saw the antibodies drop below 100. So we saw a 99% drop in antibodies by removing mercury. So we’ll test that. We’ll do challenge test via urine and we’ll use various provocation agents like DMPS, which is 2, 3 dimer propanoic acid, or we’ll do uh – 2, 3 dimer succinic acid, which is DMSA. Or we can even do EDT as well. But I typically do the DMPS challenge and we’ll be able to provoke that and see what’s coming out from the mercury. That can be a big, big uh – kind of underlying revealer of another aspect of what could be driving an autoimmunity, which is the mercury. And again, I know you’ve done the shade testing which looks at urine unprovoked, hair, and blood. Not a big fan of hair and because they don’t tell you an active or chronic uhm – a chronic level. Doesn’t give you a tissue burden. And also, there’s study showing that people that push more mercury out on the hair actually have better detox pathways, and they measure people who push less mercury on the hair, and they actually found that they had more provoked mercury in the urine even though they push less out in the hair, partly because their detox pathway is impaired.

Evan Brand: Wow. I’m gonna try yours coz it sounds like it sounds like I could be getting some numbers that are not what they actually are. I wonder what other heavy metals are impacting this, too? I wonder if cadmium, for example, or aluminum is also gonna impact thyroid. It seems like all heavy metals potentially could. Or do you think it’s specific to mercury. Mercury’s gonna be the biggest?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well mercury is definitely gonna be the biggest coz it’s one of the second or third most toxic compounds in the world. It’s really bad. So that one. Obviously lead is gonna be really bad, too. Because lead and mercury interplay, right? If you look at the lethal dose of one – if you take uhm – the dose, you get hundred rats lined up, and you figure out, you keep on titrating the mercury dose up. So the first rat dies out of a hundred. So you titrate the mercury up, the first rat dies, right? That’s called the – the lethal dose of one, right? The 1, the 1% that kills – the dose of 1% of that kills. And you do that for mercury and lead, so you have the hundred rats, right? One dies of mercury, right? You increase the lead up here or one dies of lead. And you now combine the mercury and lead those together to all 100 rats, they all die. Did you get that?

Evan Brand: Yeah, I sure did.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So what they’re saying is even though it only kills one of here over a hundred and the lead over here kills one out of a hundred, but when you combine it together, and gives it all to 100, all of them die. Meaning that, these metals are synergistically connected and can have exponential effects when added. So if you see mercury and lead together, typically the compounds that we’re using, are gonna be specific to mercury and lead for sure. So you don’t have give a special one for mercury and a special one for lead, right? So you give it and it would globally affect mercury and lead and typically cadmium, as well. And we’d also wanna give extra binders. Crochet talks about this like MC but MCT like modified citrus pectin, MCP actually. Uh – we’d also give maybe charcoal or bentine clays. We’d also use things like chlorella, especially for mercury. And we’d also use things to support detoxification. So in my line, we use heavy metal clear and then we also use DMPS and we use a lot of sulfur amino acid support to run phase 2 detoxification, as well.

Evan Brand: And still eat your broccoli, folks.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. Your cruciferous are gonna be really important for your DIM and Indole-3-Carbinol which all help run phase 2 detoxification.

Evan Brand: Awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, anything else here? Any other questions we wanted to run to? Uh – on the YouTube live here, anything else we can answer?

Evan Brand: I think that was everything.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think we hit it all up pretty well. Oh, I didn’t touch upon this. Let me just hit it real quick. Iodine. Iodine is a really important nutrient for the Iodination process to make thyroid hormone, right? If you look at the T, the T typically stands for- some people say thyroid or tyrosine. And then the 4 number is the Iodine. So you have the Iodination process and then you have the 5 prime, the iodinase that comes in there and it grabs and pulls off an iodine, and activates it and makes it T3. Well, that enzyme that activates thyroid hormone is selenium dependent and comes from the liver. So healthy liver function is really important. But having adequate iron uhm – adequate iron level as well is important, but having adequate iodine is also important. RDA is about 150 to 200 µg a day to at least prevent goiter. Now some people may need more than that. Now you have people like Brown Steen and other doctors that are going super, super high, 2550 mg a day. I’m very, very cautious of doing any high-dose iodine. I have seen too many patients uhm – like literally just lose their hair. Like just like gaps, like handfuls come out and their thyroid has gotten worst. Number one, like if we give iodine and they have autoimmunity, it’s typically months later after we’ve stabilized the gluten, stabilized the adrenals, supporting thyroid, supporting nutrients, supporting the gut, get their diet in shape, get their digestion better and then we’ll start very low and we’ll gradually work them up. But we’ll be checking in, we’ll be monitoring it and we’ll be doing very low doses and then gradually tapering it up or also making sure there’s enough selenium there, enough B vitamins, enough minerals, enough vitamin C. So we’ll make sure there’s a lot of other cofactors coz when you give iodine, it can spit out hydrogen peroxide, which can increase D cell lymphocyte infiltration into the thyroid. So it can exacerbate autoimmunity. So if we do it, we’re doing it responsible. We’re doing a lower RDA doses as a starting point and then gradually working our way up from there.

Evan Brand: So what about working with foods at the same time? So I’ve heard some people, anti-kelp people out there. And I don’t know why there’s some anti-kelp people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, I think you just gotta be careful with kelp just because just coz where it’s coming from, the whole Fukushima disaster two years back.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -radiation. So just gotta be careful. There are some really good sources out there. You gotta make sure it’s not coming from one of those places and number two, there’s a whole list of foods that you can give. Typically, like in my multi- there’s gonna be at least the RDA there, which is great.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Egg yolks are gonna have some iodine as well. Uhm- obviously seaweeds have some good iodine sources. You just have to make sure that it’s not gonna be the Fukushima kind. I’ll get a list right here. I’ll read out a couple of foods that are really high in iodine in just one second.

Evan Brand: I’ve heard strawberries, too, which is interesting. And then I also wonder – it’s hard to get a composition sheet for a Himalayan pink salt. I wonder if you’re gonna get any iodine from pink salt or not?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean there’s some maybe some trace amounts there. I know iodized salt; 1 gram will have about 77 µg. There are some research showing that increased iodize salt consumption did increase autoimmunity. And it could just be that these are the general public. They’re just taking it, they already have a poor diet, and they don’t have the selenium, and the B’s, and the minerals, and the vitamin C in the background. And maybe that’s why that happened. So it’s hard to say. So there are studies on that showing there could be an issue. But things like cod, right? Things like shrimp, uh – things like turkey. Even some navy beans, even some tuna, even some eggs are gonna have some good iodine. I mean one egg is gonna have 12 to 15 µg iodine. So if you do 4 eggs a day, that’s about 60. You got a good multi- that will be 150. Uhm – you have some fish, you got some other food, now you’re like at 3, 400µg. Now you may need to go higher, but you had to work with physician or functional medicine practitioner to be monitoring the antibodies and make sure you have all ducks in a row first, before you go there.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I mean there’s people that will just start covering themselves in iodine. And so that could be a bad idea, you’re saying, coz you could actually increase antibodies, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally can increase antibodies. Uhm- you gotta be careful with that.

Evan Brand: I’m not – for some reason iodine, one of those things and kind of the eggs will call the natural health community that is – it’s been portrayed as very benign. And I remember even in some of the – the classes I was taking down in Austin, I remember a girl in class, she like paints everyday, she was painting her arm with iodine. And she was like, “it’s the greatest nutrient ever.” I was like, “Oh, my Lord. This is out of control.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well painting on your skin for the most part, 80% of it evaporates.

Evan Brand: Uh-huh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The only time I recommend painting it on your skin is if you have fibrocystic breast disease uh – you have a lot of cyst and painful breast tissue. Painting it on the breast tissue can be great coz you’re driving the iodine right into the localized spot, where there’s the cyst, which could help. But outside of that, I mean, if you have –if you need iodine systemically for your body and for your thyroid function, you wanna take it in – in your body. And typically do a liquid potassium iodide.

Evan Brand: So she wasn’t – She probably wasn’t making herself toxic then. She was just turning herself uh – brown.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. 80% of it – you know, the iodine pass test, like the faster it evaporates, meaning the more your body absorb it; the slower it evaporates the more iodine you have. It’s very crude measurement, right? The better test is gonna be like Hakala or I think doctor stated, there’s an iodine loading test. I think it’s 25 to 50 mg of iodine then you test uhm – your urine and see how much GPL. So the goal is, if you pee 90% or more, it means your iodine levels are saturated; if you pee less than 90%, right? You pee less than 90% that means your body grab more of that iodine. So it’s – you’re essentially low. That’s the theory on that. 90% and more, you’re okay; less than 90, you’re low.

Evan Brand: Uhh. That’s interesting.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: But again, regarding iodine, you gotta do it responsible – responsibly. If you’re – think of iodine gasoline on the fire.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Gasoline is not bad when you put it in your car. But if your car is on fire, and you start putting gasoline in your car, you can create problems, obviously, right? That’s what’s kinda happening in your thyroid. You wanna look at everything holistically. And you want the body system approach that Evan and I use, the key three, looking at the hormones, ATF( adrenals, thyroid, female hormones); ATM (adrenals, thyroid, male hormones), gut and infections, putting nutrients, digestion, better food, allergies, and then looking at detox and nutrients, as well.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. Go to justinhealth.com to schedule consultation with Justin. Check out the thyroid videos series. He’s got hormone videos series, too. You’ve got the supplement line there. And then, you could check out my stuff, too, notjustpaleo.com or you could just google either of us. Justin, or Dr. Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Evan Brand. You’ll find us both. And stay tune because this is really fun. And I don’t know about you, but I’m loving this. I think maybe 3 to 5 times more than just doing an off-air podcast coz people are asking questions. And it’s like shaping and structuring this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: This little organic podcast ball.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I love it. We love the questions. We like just having this little kinda dialogue back and forth and “ooh, someone responds over here, let’s see what they said” and we kinda see if we can interject it into the conversation. That’s great. Totally m__we’re on the fly.

Evan Brand: Love it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Like impromptu, right? It’s like we’re on the stage, doing a little impromptu podcast.

Evan Brand: There’s no cuts; there’s no edits; there’s no –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Overall man, this is it.

Evan Brand: This is – this is the real deal. This isn’t – there’s not a makeup person coming in and touching you up here. I mean this is the real deal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know. If you guys are liking this, we’re gonna do it a lot more. We just need thumbs up; we need likes; we need shares; show us the love. Go like Evan’s channel. Share the podcast. And then we’re gonna do more of this, and get everyone’s questions answered, and just provide more value. Like how could we provide more value to our listeners and improve your health.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And I think I mentioned it already. But if you wanna schedule a consult with Justin, just go to the website, justinhealth.com you could schedule the consults there.  And same thing for me, notjustpaleo.com and we’ll chat with you all next week. And let’s do something next week, maybe – maybe on like clinical success stories we’re having in the practice.

Evan Brand: Well that means they’re coming in –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And just like, maybe go over our top 3 stories of the week. Coz we see – you know, so many patients. We can pick out 3 easily.

Evan Brand: Well, yeah. I thought of something, too. Uh- actually, a woman who was struggling with fertility is now pregnant. And I figured, getting her on and talking about her story with parasites and how her fertility was compromised due to the infections. Getting her on the air, maybe asking them– we have to make it fun for them, too. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: For them to take time out of it, get them to share their story and just kinda talk them through what we did. I think that’s- that’s the most remarkable part of all this, is getting to hear the feedback, which a lot of people, they’re not getting to hear the stories. And this is what keeps us motivated and keeps us going.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I love it, Evan. That sounds awesome, man. Well, let’s connect real soon, brother.

Evan Brand: Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You take care. Bye now.

Evan Brand: Bye.


References:

www.notjustpaleo.com

YouTube.com/justinhealth

Natural solutions for high blood pressure – Podcast #117

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand dive into a discussion about high blood pressure, something everyone is all too familiar with, and they explain what the root causes are and how you can manage it conventionally and with functional medicine.

Find out what nutrient deficiencies can be caused by blood pressure medications and what you can do about it. Discover how you can manage your blood pressure in the long-term with functional medicine. Also learn some tips on what to eat during the holidays and how to get that mouth feel while eating good food when you listen to this podcast.

In this episode, topics include:

01:45   High Blood Pressure Overview

05:39   Blood pressure myths

10:46   Mechanisms

12:04   Nutrition and stress

20:10   Lifestyle

itune

 

 

youtuve

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, there! It’s Dr. Justin. Evan, how are you doing today, man? It’s almost Christmas.  December 23rd here, really excited for the holidays. How you doin’?

Evan Brand:  I’m as excited as you are.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Great! So the question is have you been a good boy this year?

Evan Brand:  I’m on—I’m on the good list.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Good, awesome!

Evan Brand:  What about you? Are you on—are you on the nice or the naughty list?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Of course, I’m on the nice list. Now the question is, are you gonna leave some Paleo cookies out for—for Santa, or are you gonna leave some—some glutinous cookies out for him?

Evan Brand:  We actually did buy some organic Annie’s cookie for a Christmas party. I will probably not be partaking in them even though it’s organic which is great there’s the wheat, so I will be avoiding the wheat. I’ll probably buy Miracle Tart for myself for Christmas since I’m part Santa.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes, exactly. That’s the—the Hail Mary tarts, right?

Evan Brand:  Yes, those are so good. There’s only one place in the whole city you can get them here and so that’s where I go to—to get them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Do you guys have a Whole Foods down there in Louisville?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, we got Whole Foods. They don’t stock them there though. They stock them at this little local place called Rainbow Blossom. They have random things like Epic. They have Epic products. They have their pork rinds and that’s the only place you can get him.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Evan Brand:  And they’re really darn good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow. Very cool.

Evan Brand:  You know what I’m talking about? Epic?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, the Epic bars you mean?

Evan Brand:  Have you seen them?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The Epic bars?

Evan Brand:  No. Yeah, but they have pork rinds now. Have you seen them?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, I have seen them. I have patients that just got some recently/.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, the pastured pork rinds. They’re really good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Gonna have to get them for sure. I love pork rinds.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. Well, we talked pre-show that we were gonna chat a little bit about blood pressure. We really haven’t gone into that so much.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I mean this is common. Just some statistics at a glance, you got 70 million Americans and 1 billion people worldwide with high blood pressure, and if it’s left untreated you run into many, many, many issues. The biggest one that people probably know of is a stroke, and one time probably 25-30 years ago my grandmother had high blood pressure so high that she felt a shooting pain in her brain. So she went to the emergency room. She had my grandfather take her in and her blood pressure was over 220 by maybe 150, 220/150 something like that, just insanely high that so high that the nurse freaked out and immediately, immediately took action to get the blood pressure down. So this is not always the way that people find out they have high blood pressure issues. This could be going on behind the scenes for decades, but there are some simple strategies that we can talk about that can help to reduce the risk of high blood pressure. It goes up naturally with age, right? But that still should not be over 200. That’s just mind blowing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, absolutely. So when you look at blood pressure medications, you know, for the most part, that’s a chronic type of ailment. It tends to happen over a long time and it’s—for the most part, it’s something that’s chronic and that the blood pressure medications aren’t gonna get to the root underlying cause.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Now if your blood pressure, you know, you’re upwards of 160—that’s the systolic number. That’s the—the pressure that your heart creates in the blood vessels when the contracts and the bottom number, that’s called the diastolic number, like D for down, it’s the bottom number and that’s kind of where the pressure is in your arteries/heart when your heart’s kind of relaxing. So you pump—the lub dub—that’s the heart contracting and where it’s pressing down, that’s the top number, systolic, and then where it’s relaxing, that’s the bottom number, the diastolic. So when you get about 160 with the systolic, that can kind of be what I call the danger zone. So if you are at that level and let’s say, you haven’t quite made the diet and lifestyle changes, I do think being on a medication at higher levels until you get to the root cause is better because you wanna avoid a stroke or some type of a heart attack, right? So we want to make sure that if it’s high and you’re not doing anything about it, getting that blood pressure down is better, but in the long run we don’t want that to be the only answer.  We wanna look at getting to the root cause and we’ll kinda go over some of the root causes here in just a bit.

Evan Brand:  Great point. So just to be clear if someone’s listening and they have high blood pressure but they’re scared or they do not like conventional medicine you would still advise that person to go get on the drug even if it is short-term because you’re safer on a drug with side effects that lowers blood pressure than having high blood pressure and doing nothing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, and you were talking–

Evan Brand:  Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Upwards of above 160 and let’s say you already have a lot of a healthy—or sorry, unhealthy habits going on, poor exercise, sugar, inflammation, all that and you don’t quite know where to go yet, again I just would hate to see someone, I’m—I’m a little more concerned and I hate to see someone go and have a cardiovascular incident that could’ve been prevented with some blood pressure medication in the short-term but in the end, right?

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We wanna get on board with the functional medicine coach/doctor that can get to the root issues because the nice thing about blood pressure, it’s easy to monitor. You get one of these $30 Omron blood pressure cuffs, the self ones on Amazon you can monitor it multiple times a day, and then you can see the number go down and guess what? You just call up your doctor. “Hey, Doc, I’m doing some natural things to help lower blood pressure. My blood pressure’s dropping naturally. I like to taper off the medication.” And most medical doctors, if you’re being responsible and monitoring it and you’re telling them you’re doing things they typically have no problem with that if you show them that you’re responsible by keeping track of it.

Evan Brand:  Yup, well said.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so off the bat, anything you want to comment on that?

Evan Brand:  Well, so with blood pressure, you know, there’s tons of things that can cause it. I would say we should probably dispel the myth of the salt high blood pressure, I mean, kind of—part of it’s true if we’re talking about the garbage salt, right? The iodized salt, the sodium chloride plus iodide, but with like a good pink salt or a good Himalayan sea salt, there’s so many different options with black salts, there’s volcanic salts, the sodium is not gonna be the problem there, it’s the inflammation combined with a low-quality salt that could be the problem, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, they’ve done studies I think it’s in the Journal of the American Medical Association where like salt even, they—I don’t think differentiated the quality of salt, probably your regular table salt that’s not so nice. I think it increased like maybe 2 mmHg, right? Two or three, that’s like the top number. That’s like going from 120 to 122, 123.

Evan Brand:  Why did that—why did that become such a popular widespread myth do you think?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s a great questions. There’s a lot of things in conventional medicine that are that way. I mean, you can look at grains, you can look at sugar, you can look at trans fat. I mean, you can look at cigarette smoking. You can look at so many different things–

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Of how they kinda got that way but for the most part the only reason, the only, you know, motivation to avoid salt is if you already have severe kidney damage, maybe the only reason why you’d want to decrease salt consumption is because you have active kidney issues right now. But if you didn’t have that, getting high quality minerals on board will be helpful and again, if your blood pressure is excessively low, salt will help bring your blood pressure up kind of in a modulatory way, but it won’t make it go excessively high. You won’t have high blood pressure because you have more sea salt intake. You will have higher blood pressure but higher and high are two different things. Higher meaning a couple millimeters of mercury bump, that’s where we’re looking at.

Evan Brand:  Makes sense.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Except if it’s low—if it’s low, it’ll bring it up much higher because you know, let’s say your adrenals are really key at holding on to minerals and if you’re decreasing your mineral retention because the aldosterone that your adrenals make is low because of the adrenal dysfunction that’s happening, you will pee out more minerals and that—that’s important for regulating blood pressure and that’s also important for their sodium potassium pumps, so if we don’t have enough high quality sodium, those sodium potassium pumps kinda that creates the gradient and how things go in and out of the cell, now if don’t have adequate sodium on board, that can definitely be a stressor for the body.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, makes sense and you and I hear this all the time with people with adrenal problems, if you stand up quickly you may get lightheaded or woozy, you’re not regulating your blood pressure. You may not have high blood pressure, you could actually have low blood pressure in some of those cases, but either way your body’s ability to regulate blood pressure does decrease if there is adrenal stress which definitely there’s gonna be adrenal stress of there’s infections and inflammation, and all the things that you’ve already mentioned, maybe other things like insulin resistance. How do you know if you’re insulin resistant? Well, if you look into—well, there’s—there’s calculators and all of that to look at, what is it? Waist to hip ratio and all of that. But if you look into the mirror and you see that you’re overweight, it’s likely that you have some level of insulin or possibly leptin resistance problems which can then cause blood pressure to go high.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely so when we look at blood pressure, one of the biggest things that will throw your minerals off and cause a higher than normal blood pressure is increased fructose consumption, i.e. sugar and just increased elevations of insulin. Insulin will cause a retention of sodium. That’s why one of the first things you notice, you cut out sugar for 2 or 3 days, you lose like 3 or 4 pounds weight, maybe even more. Now you’re not losing 3 or 4 pounds of fat. You’re losing 3 or 4 pounds of fluid because as the sugar goes down, right? One molecule of sugar holds on to—to I think 3 or 4 molecules of water, something like that. So as the sugar goes down, so does the sodium and so does the water. So what happens is you flush out a lot of fluid when you cut down the carbohydrates and cut down the sugar, and with fructose—fructose, high amounts of fructose inhibits this enzyme called en—endothelial synthase. Endothelial synthase is a nitric oxide-based enzyme that’s really important for vasodilating, and dilation means opening up those blood vessels. So if we decrease the enzyme that opens up those blood vessels, it’s like clamping down on that hole. It’s like going out in your garden taking the hose that’s putting out water and putting your thumb over the edge of it to make that stream go stronger and stronger.

Evan Brand:  That’s a trip. Now let me stack on another idea here. If there is adrenal stress, someone’s also gonna be dumping a lot of magnesium which you need that to help relax the blood vessels so you’re compounding the issue and if you are adding the fructose or the high fructose corn syrup or sodas in there, that’s gonna cause blood sugar issues which is gonna create a bigger crisis and the adrenals are gonna have to be more stressed if they’re not already. They’ll be more stressed because they’re having to kick in as the backup generators because then the pancreas and the liver not being able to keep up, so the whole cascade really kinda falls apart at sugar it sounds like.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. So we have a couple of different mechanisms. Let’s break them down. So we have just the—the general sugar kind of mechanism with it’s table, you know, your sucrose, fructose, kinda glucose thing that’s increasing insulin and that’s gonna hold on to more fluid and more sodium, and that will increase blood pressure via that way. We have the fructose mechanism that will increase or decrease the endothelial synthase enzyme which will decrease the vasodilation, i.e. cause constriction of the blood vessels, and we also have plasminogen activator inhibitor mechanism. So the higher amounts of insulin we have, our plasminogen activator what that does is it—it decreases or I should say, it decreases clots, i.e. it increases fibrinolysis. So -lysis means to cut. Fiber means like a clot. So it’s breaking down blood clots. So imagine little occlusions from cells sticking together, fibron, it’s gonna decrease those clots and allow smoother flow in the plumbing in the cardiovascular system. So if we decrease the clots, that means the plumbing flows smoother and that means we’re gonna have less pressure to have to push through those clots. So we have the plasminogen activator inhibitor-2 mechanism that also gets drained with higher levels of insulin.

Evan Brand:  Make sense. Should we talk about nutrition now?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Evan Brand:  So Omega 3 deficiency is huge, I mean, if you look at hunter-gatherers or if you even just look Ennuit studies, you’ll see that the average Ennuit was consuming anywhere depending on what you look at, but on the low end 10 or 15g, sometimes 20g of Omega 3’s per day and we’re lucky if we get someone to take a 1g or maybe 2g supplement of Omega 3’s. So there’s a huge, huge deficiency and when you look at research linking Omega 3’s to blood pressure problems, what you’ll find is the people who have the lowest blood pressure readings have the highest blood levels or serum levels of Omega 3’s. This is a huge find and this is why I’m very, very passionate about getting people to supplement with some type of Omega 3. We’re gonna assume that most people are not eating enough wild caught fish and also then you run into the issue of the methylmercury in certain bigger fish like tuna. So for me I’m more pushing people towards a supplement because I know a lot of people don’t want to cook fish multiple times a week anyway, so you can look at like a fish oil or a krill oil, but at the end of the day, could you still get some fish into your diet? For sure, a cod or a wild caught salmon would be good, but your—what is it called? StarKist tuna that’s probably sitting in genetically modified soybean oil. You want to stay away from that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely, and fish oil also is a natural blood thinner. It keeps the cells of from sticking together. So it’s kind of a natural thinner, kinda like a Coumadin or a warfarin, but without the side effects. So it does thin out the blood a bit for sure.

Evan Brand:  Great point. Yeah, that’s why we gotta tell people if they’re going to get surgery you would think, “Oh, man, supplements are fine.” That is one case where we would say, “Hey, look, why don’t you stop taking your fish oil for now if you’re going to get surgery, because we don’t want your blood too thin.” So it is very, very effective for that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. So we talked about vitamin D. There’s also other natural blood thinners like ginkgo which help increase oxygenation by increasing blood flow. Even things like systemic-based enzymes taken on an empty—empty stomach especially serratiopeptidase. So if you have various clotting or you have occlusions in the coronary arteries, taking some of these enzymes on an empty stomach they’re gonna be enterically coated so they’re not gonna be used for digestion. They won’t get exposed and degraded by stomach acid. Ideally they’ll make its way into the bloodstream where these guys can hit areas of plaque or occlusion and break up any fibrin or scar tissues that may be hanging out in there.

Evan Brand:  Here’s another—you—you brought up vitamin D. Here’s a good—a good hack and obviously it may take money if you’re somewhere closer to the polls and it’s wintertime, you’re not gonna have as much sunlight but there’s definitely some research that shows that if you exposed your skin to sunlight, that it’s gonna increase the level of nitric oxide which is isn’t gonna naturally help you to dilate your blood vessels and then, therefore, reduce your blood pressure. So you could be taking a fish oil supplement, you could be going to the beach and getting some sunshine, and then what about stress? We should probably mention stress, too, because a lot of this is we’ve already talked about stress, right? Nutritional stress, mineral stress, but emotional stress, too, if that goes unaddressed and people are harboring anger and negative emotions, that’s not good. That cannot—it’s definitely not helping your blood pressure. Put it that way.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, all of that will basically increase cortisol and adrenaline which does have a vasoconstricting. It’ll—it’ll put that thumb over the water hose a little bit tighter, incre—increase that flow because of the stress hormone. So stress emotionally knocks over a domino cascade of adrenaline and cortisol, which does have a big impact on the vascular system.

Evan Brand:  Which would be good if you and I were running from a bear, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, totally make sense, right? Because we gotta get blood flow to those extremities, the toes, the fingers, the arms, the legs, so we can run and fight and flee. But if we’re just sitting on their desk or like, you know, driving to work and we’re just boiling and we don’t—necessarily don’t need that type of blood flow. You can see the stress on the vascular system that is caused by that type of hormonal cascade.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so I mean this is another example where the ancient wiring system really does try to benefit us but when it’s chronic acute stress which sounds like an oxymoron but you’re dealing with acute stressors like a cell phone notification—ding! And that goes off all day, that’s a chronic acute stressor. Your body doesn’t know the difference, so I encourage people if you have it, get rid of your notifications. I promise the world will not fall apart if you have your phone on silent or even airplane mode most of the time, and then you can get back to life on your terms. Because what I find with people dealing with emotional stress, and—and hypertension is that many people feel like there’s never enough time in the day. They’re always playing catch up and I found personally, if I get up a bit earlier I feel more in control of my schedule. You and I are very, very, very passionate about calendar software, so we love our calendars and couldn’t live without them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  So that—so that’s another helpful thing. But for me, it’s also focusing on the most important things in the morning. You gave me some really good advice when you talked about kind of the morning visualization and all of that. I’ve— I try to do some type of morning meditation, visualization exercise, that helps to increase the amount of control and at the end of the day, the goal is just to reduce your perceived stress. Justin and I can’t wave a wand and say, “Okay, look your stress is gone.” But if we can fix or improve the way that you respond to what you have on your plate, at the end of the day, you’re gonna be much healthier. You’re not gonna releasing cortisol all day. Hopefully, you’re gonna have less food cravings. You’re gonna be less dependent on glucose because you’re gonna be burning ketones and fat, and you’re gonna be in a much better place, mentally, physically, cognitively, blood sugar-wise, everything.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A hundred percent and just piggybacking on what you said, just a little bit of sunlight makes a big difference. They’ve done some studies and again a lot of this is correlation not causation, but you know there are some potential mechanisms there, like with the nitric oxide and potentially with the kidney and how vitamin D can really help blood pressure, one study talked about a 10 ng/mL increase, so you know, if your vitamin D’s 30, that’s like taking it from 30 to 40, and someone who’s vitamin D levels are lower can have a 12% lowering of their blood pressure and also people who had the highest vitamin D levels had a 30% lower risk of developing hypertension. Again not causation but correlation but there are some hypothetical mechanisms that we just mentioned that could be at play so a good rule of thumb here especially in the winter months, get your 25-hydroxy vitamin D looked at and if you haven’t gotten it tested yet or you don’t have the ability to test it right now, a good rule of thumb is 25 for every 25 pounds of body weight, you have 1000 IUs of vitamin D is fine. So I’m a little over 200 pounds so I would do about 8000 IUs of vitamin D, maybe round up to 10. Someone who’s half that, obviously 4000 is a pretty good starting point if you’re just trying to figure out, hey, how can I take this vitamin D to lower my blood pressure?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, some people worry a lot about the vitamin K because we’ve talked before about the whole traffic cop analogy of vitamin K helping to direct and keep calcium where it belongs and not into your arteries and things like that. Do you worry much about vitamin K1, K2 supplementation or you just focus on getting plenty of good butter?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  If we’re going vitamin D on a high, if we’re using vitamin D and we’re going with it for a long period of time, we’ll make sure there’s a couple hundred micrograms of the MK2 in there.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, MK—I think it’s MK4 and MK7.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Let’s see, I’ll have to look at my bottle over here, but the vitamin K 2, the X factor, the activator, that’s what we’ll use and that will significantly help keep the calcium where it needs to be in the bones, and also just getting high quality grass-fed and essential fatty acids, a little bit of liver, all that stuff’s gonna be phenomenal for vitamin K.

Evan Brand:  Excellent. Now I wanted to get back to more lifestyle things. We talked about vitamin D. We talked about Omega 3’s. Exercise is a good one for sure, I mean, the—the basic part of it is just that you’re becoming more insulin sensitive. I mean if you think about how hungry your appetite is when you get done with a good high intensity workout. Oh, my gosh, you can just feel amazing, and if I do a protein shake after an intense workout, I feel like it’s going straight my bicep. I love the feeling but now—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Evan Brand:  After super high blood pressure, would we want to tell people, “Look, start with just walking.” You probably don’t want to put somebody on a high intensity interval training if your blood pressure is already 150-160. You might not be able to handle it. You might get dizzy and—and more stressed out than—than we want you to be.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly so you have, you know, the mechanism you just mentioned by having the insulin receptors be more sensitive. That means your pancreas has to produce less insulin to get the sugar into your cell, so it can be burned up. Number one. You’re obviously you’re burning—you’re putting less sugar into your body so you’re using more ketones for fuel. So we’re being more fat or keto adapted at that time, and then also the heart just gets stronger. As the heart get stronger, it needs less force to pump. It has a higher stroke volume so it can push out more blood per pump and that obviously will have a—an effect of decreasing the blood pressure and then also growth hormone and/or just exercise will increase nitric oxide. And that will have an effect of—

Evan Brand:  That’s—that’s so cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Vasodilating and opening things up, too.

Evan Brand:  Yup. That is so cool. How about—what about indoor—indoor air pollution. You know, the EPA talks about 10 or 100 times more toxic exposures inside your home than outside. So air purification could be a good idea because if you’re breathing in these different toxins, that’s also an invisible stressor that’s gonna be elevating that whole nervous system sympathetic, fight or flight response, which we really don’t need to press that button anymore.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, so anytime you put a stressor on your body, whether it’s physical, chemical or emotional, and this kinda fits into the chemical realm, i.e. toxin realm, that can be a stressor on the body and your adrenals and your fight or flight system may respond. It may put you into a sympathetic type of stress response and again we already know what happens with that cortisol increase that’s gonna create constriction. Why? Because the stress response pushes blood flow to the extremities, right?

Evan Brand:  For survival—survival over I don’t know what the—the other side of the coin would be. But your body goes for survival any day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup, exactly. Surviving over thriving. The problem is thriving only happens after the survival mechanism is turned off, but most people are constantly living with that survival mechanism turned on and activated.

Evan Brand:  So now this can get a little bit complicated.  So I know this may be tough for us to cover this, but let’s say we have someone that is already on a blood pressure medication like a lisinopril and we’re wanting them to go the natural route or they have intentions to go the natural route. How does that work? Do we bring the doctor on board and we have to say, “Look, you know, I’m working with a functional medicine practitioner. We wanna start using some natural things like Hawthorne or other blood pressure modulating herbs. Can you help me to lower my medication?” You know, how—how should that relationship happen between the prescribing doc and then someone like us trying to help to switch them to something natural or just get them off any type of meds completely?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So what I typically tell patients, I say, “Are you interested in getting off your blood pressure medication? Do you wanna get off them?” And almost anyone that’s seeing someone like us, they definitely wanna get off them.

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Again, the biggest problem with a lot of the blood pressure medications is they actually perpetuate the need for more blood pressure medications. So what I mean is they actually create nutrient deficiencies. Things like potassium which are really important for blood pressure, magnesium which is a natural beta blocker—these little receptor sites in the heart that the nervous system activates and it creates, you know, more excitability in the heart and that can cause the—the heart to have to pump harder and that can increase the blood pressure in the arteries. So magnesium’s a natural beta blocker, really important for relaxation. People that take it, one of the first thing they notice is they start to relax and wind down. That’s why Epsom salt baths are so popular with people that are stressed. So magnesium, potassium, calcium, various B vitamins, so all these nutrients become more deficient in these types of medications. These medications are known to create these nutrient deficiencies. So like I mentioned before acutely if you’re not in good place, you wanna be on one of these medications until you can get your—your lifestyle and everything in order, and you find a good nutritionist and/or functional medicine doctor to work with, that’s when you can start to move forward and the nice thing is it you just monitor it. You can tell your doctor, “Hey, we’re gonna be doing some things to help lower it naturally. A lot of times they think there’s nothing you can do. I mean, they may be keen on the whole diet and lifestyle thing. They may think that you can’t get down to the point where you are off the medications, but a lot of times they’ll entertain the idea. “Hey, let’s monitor it. Let’s see where you’re at out and you can go from there.” The biggest though misconception you gotta be careful of if you’re only testing your blood pressure during the day when you’re at the doctor’s office, we called The White Coat Syndrome. Just being around the doctor in the office and all the, you know, “Hey, am I gonna get a shot today or a needle or give blood, whatever,” so it’s a lot of stress about getting poked and prodded when you go to the doctor’s office. That can increase your blood pressure as well. So I tell my patients, first thing you get up in the morning. You’re still horizontal. You’re lying down. Take your blood pressure there. Take it at random intervals throughout the day and just kinda make some notations of how your blood pressure ranges. It may be 20 or 30 mmHg higher when you’re more active, but when you’re more relaxed, it maybe 20 or 30 lower, and if you’re sleeping—

Evan Brand:  I had my grandfather—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, go ahead.

Evan Brand:  Sorry, I didn’t—I didn’t mean to interrupt. I had my grandfather do that because he went to his doctor, which he doesn’t like his doctor anyway, and I tell him, “Look, you can—you can get a new doctor.” I don’t—he feels so tuck. I don’t know. It’s just that mindset. Anyhow, 40 difficulty—40-point difference from morning when he first got up, took his blood pressure—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Compared to at the doctor’s office. I mean, we’re talking a difference of 120 to 160. I mean, that’s insane, 40 points. So here you go and it’s not like the doctor is going to monitor you and say, “Hey, let me check your blood pressure again next week.” If they see that high once, they’re gonna put you on the drug.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s it.

Evan Brand:  And write that prescription that quick.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly and the insurance base model for visits with your conventional MD, there’s just not time to talk about diet nor do they even—are they even educated about it? There’s virtually zero nutritional education and if there is any, it’s based on a pathological level, right? Vitamin C causes scurvy, B1 deficiency causes beriberi, or it’s the food pyramid—eat your 10 to 11 servings of grains a day.

Evan Brand:  Ugh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Let’s not talk about the GMOs or the carcinogenic pesticides sprayed on the food daily.

Evan Brand:  Oh, my gosh. I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So you don’t like get the best perspective.

Evan Brand:  I was watching a video by Eric Berg, you know, Dr. Berg?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Watching a video of him talking about glyphosate which I already knew most of it, but it’s just mind blowing that now research is starting to look at how small of glyphosate exposure it really takes to disrupt this whole hormonal health cascade. I mean we’re talking points, parts per billion or are parts per trillion in some cases, I mean, here you are thinking, “Oh, the 80-20 rule, 80 organic, 20 not.” I wanna be as close to a hundred as I possibly can.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, a hundred percent, and again glyphosate a.k.a. Roundup, right? That’s the major pesticide sprayed on a lot of these Roundup resistant crops, basically allows them to not have to do any weeding at all, because it kills everything except the plant, i.e. kills the weed and it’s the chelator. So it pulls away minerals, so guess what? It’s pulling away a lot of good minerals, some of the ones I mentioned that are really important for healthy vascular health and controlling blood pressure.

Evan Brand:  Yup. Wow. That’s a trip and you combine that with 24/7 technology, that Fight or Flight mode is going.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. So obviously getting the adrenals under control, getting the diet under control, getting the—your glycemic load under control, meaning keeping the carbohydrates within range for you. If you’re overweight, getting them close to 50 and getting more to a ketogenic approach starting out is gonna be a great starting point and then getting some of the extra nutrients back in like magnesium, zinc, potassium, folate, B6. These are common nutrients that are deficient in people taking blood pressure medications, right? We’ve talked about the nutrient deficiencies caused by these medications and then also adding things like Hawthorne or a.k.a. foxglove. I think there’s a medication made after these herbs, too.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I think—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That are—that’s conventionally used.

Evan Brand:  I think they’re—they’re rooted from that. I think they come from the plant.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  And of course, they patented and changed it to where it doesn’t resemble the plant anymore but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s it. So some medications are actually made from those types of extracts. So we kinda reviewed the diet and lifestyle things, and that these drugs work a couple different ways. You mentioned the lisinopril or the hydrochlorothiazide. These are like water pills. They just cause you to pee more and lose more of the fluid then you have ones that affect the angiotensin-converting enzyme that affects—it’s in the lung

area menu of ones that affect the receptor sites in around the heart whether it’s the beta blockers or the—these adrenergic receptor blockers that affect heart contractility, so there’s a couple different ones there and again in the end, we want to get to the root cause of why you have these blood pressure issues to begin with.

Evan Brand:  Yup, absolutely! I’m sure we can make this an hour—an hour-long show but it always is going to end. You got—you gotta dig deeper and figure out. We could talk all day about the lifestyle and all that, but in some cases, people are doing everything right or what they think is everything right and they still have high blood pressure so there could be some other type of infection or something deeper that is causing the sympathetic stress and we just have to uncover it and I don’t know if I mentioned it to you. I ran a 401H and a GI MAP side-by-side on a female, let’s see about two weeks ago, and the GI MAP showed up with seven infections including two parasites and the 401H showed up with nothing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Evan Brand:  Is that not crazy?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That is pretty crazy. The other one was–

Evan Brand:  So I sent over—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Was the other one the GI Map?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay. So we got DNA technology on one versus the antigen-based under the microscope technology on the other.

Evan Brand:  Yeah and I have to go on symptoms because I mean those a lot of symptoms, so get tested but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, you know my—yeah.

Evan Brand:  What were you gonna say?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You know my method on that. If anyone has got symptoms we always wanna cast a bigger net because we have the possibility for holes in one, so 2 tests as a minimum when we’re looking at gut infections for sure.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And again the nutrients that are so important for heart contractility where we’re always trying to—if we go off on a tangent everyone, we’ll pull it back in and try to relate it, but the nutrient deficiencies caused by some of these infections, these nutrients like the magnesium and the B6 and the folate and all of the other minerals, potassium, magnesium, etc., zinc are really important for heart contractility and blood pressure, so if we have holes in our intestinal tract metaphorically, where we have a decrease in the absorption of these nutrients, that can affect our vasculature and our blood pressure for sure.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so we’re talking SIBO, other you know, any type of bacterial overgrowth problems, yeast problems, parasites, things that are stealing your nutrients basically you’re referring to where you’re not getting fed yourself because you’re starving from the inside out because you’re feeding something else and not feeding yourself or hydrochloric acid levels are low. I mean, could we go as far as to say—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A hundred percent.

Evan Brand:  This cascade could start by having heartburn and then getting put on PPIs which then reduces hydrochloric acid, which then reduces absorption, so then the nutrient deficiencies cause the hypertension.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A hundred percent and I’ve seen so many patients that are adrenally fatigued or have adrenal dysfunction per se, and they can’t really regulate their blood sugar. They have to eat every two hours and their blood pressure gets super wonky, right? It goes down below 90 sometimes and we have to flood their body with extra minerals, enzymes, and hydrochloric acid and eat every two hours just to be able to maintain everything because the glandular system is so out of whack, which again correlates back to blood pressure. Now in this side of the fence, we’re dealing with the lower side which can still create just as many issues, not as quite dramatic as the high blood pressure ones with stroke and heart attack, right? Heart attack is occlusions and blockages in the heart. Strokes obviously conclusions and blockages in the brain. So we wanna do our best to avoid the high stuff and make sure we adhere to as many of these natural strategies as possible.

Evan Brand:  Yup, absolutely. Well said. So if it’s high, implement the stuff that you can, take the free information, and then if you need to work further, work further. Reach out to Justin. Reach out to myself. Get help. Get this taken care of. This is something that is so common, but that doesn’t make it normal. So many people can relate to high blood pressure, maybe you’ve dealt with it or you have a family member that’s dealt with it. I could think of a dozen people off the top of my head and they just get put on the drugs, nothing ever changes with diet and lifestyle, they continue to suffer and will get more symptomatic as time goes on. So don’t be in that statistic. You can—you can get healed and you can reverse this without too much hassle and a relative amount of time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, so if someone’s tuning in now, maybe they fell asleep the last half hour, well, shame on you. No. But here’s the general gist, okay, here’s the gist. If you fell asleep and you’re waking up now, diet—get it in order, just what Evan said, get the carbohydrates dialed in. If you’re overweight, start with just vegetables and maybe add in a small amount of low fructose types of fruit. From there, optimize fat, become a fat burner, and then on top of that, look at the adrenals, look at your stress, make sure that’s dialed in because of the cortisol response. And then off top of that, look at the nutrients—magnesium, zinc, hydrochloric acid. Look at blood pressure medications, potential being—

Evan Brand:  Omega 3’s.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Omega 3’s. You can look at herbs that can help, the foxglove/Hawthorne types of medications or herbs I should say, which are based off of medications as well.  Omega 3’s, blood thinning, gingko, systemic-based enzymes, Hawthorne. These are all really good things to help kind of support and address blood pressure and then get to the root cause, work with a functional medicine doctor that can help you put—put it all together because it could be a little overwhelming if you’re walking into this and you’re like, “Shoot! Where do I start?” And then also a little bit of exercise and then really look at the fructose, because how that has an effect on the endothelial synthase and the blood pressure via the contractility in the arteries.

Evan Brand:  Yup, well said. And I have heard people say that they like listening to us because it’s relaxing. So you did a great job! In case I did fall sleep for the last 35 minutes, you summed it up. So good job!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Perfect! Excellent and again most people that come and see me at least and I think it may be for you, most people are coming because of a whole bunch of other symptoms, and then blood pressure is kinda like a—an artifact there sitting in the background.

Evan Brand:  Agreed, yeah, that’s exactly the case. They’ve been through 10, 20 people. They’ve been going for fatigue or joint pain, but “Oh, I happen to have high blood pressure, too”. And it’s something that gets thrown to the back burner and I don’t think it should be on the back burner.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly and most people there are just seeing their medical doctor, and medical doctors are more than happy to manage it which we mention is great in acute cases, right? But long-term, that’s not gonna be the best option because of the nutrient deficiency. So in the end, you know, don’t look at your medical doctor as the long-term person to give you the answers to fix it. They’re just there to help manage it and again, I mean, who wants to manage, I don’t know, diarrhea forever? You want the diarrhea fixed. Who wants to manage a headache forever? You want the headache fixed. So management’s okay in the short run, but in the long run, it gets pretty frustrating and you want to get to the root cause.

Evan Brand:  Amen. You can only put so much duct tape over that—that red light on your dashboard and you just gotta fix what the problem is. Why is that light on in the first place?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, yeah. Well, this was a great holiday show. I mean, everyone is probably—well, I shouldn’t say everyone but a lot of people are gonna be getting their carbs and the refined sugar and gluten on on this holiday season. I will not be or if I do, it’s good to be in a—a way that is ideally grain-free and lower sugar, so I get the mouth feel effects, i.e, the food tastes good but I don’t get all the collateral damage later.

Evan Brand:  Agreed. So what if you wanted to do like some mashed potatoes and gravy, would you do something like that and try to get a wheat-free gravy taken care of like a slow-cooked turkey they would have some natural gravy coming off of it or what? How would you do it?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, yeah, some mashed potatoes, I mean, loaded up with some good butter, heavy cream, and then for your gravy, you just throw some of the drippings from the turkey in there with some celery and I use carrots, and I blend it up just like that and it’s just super thick. If you want to make a little thicker, you can add a little bit of coconut flour and that’ll give you a nice thick gravy there, and if you want you know, don’t go to the potatoes, go to the sweet potatoes that have a little bit of a lower glycemic index, i.e. they don’t—

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  They don’t go and then will convert to sugar in your blood as fast, so that could be a good move or you can do the white potato. You can do 25% white potato, 75% cauliflower mash, and you mix it in and it gives a—a pretty similar mouth feel mall feel you won’t really know that much if you’re not using it another glycemic load is decreased by 75%.

Evan Brand:  I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That means less insulin.

Evan Brand:  That’s excellent. Excellent. Yeah, I got my wife converted over to sweet potatoes now. She’s like, “Wow, these are so much better than white potatoes..” I’m like, “I’ve been telling you that for three years.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. Anytime I’m dealing with patient’s—the key thing with dealing with patients when you’re making diet changes, the first thing that they go to in their head is like, “Oh, crap. I gotta remove these foods.”

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That creates a stress response. So I’m like, “No. We gotta be solution-oriented.” What’s the substitute? Because there’s tons of substitutes. So if we get them thinking about what’s the substitutes? How can I create the mouth feel? How can I get that taste in my mouth that I want that I’m missing by eating the bad food? How can we get with the good food? So like last night, I wanted a whole bunch of pasta. I’m like, “Oh, I really want pasta.” So I got some miracle noodles which are made from glucomannan, a fiber, basically has zero calories and zero sugar, and I did a whole bunch of butter noodles and I had it with some rotisserie chicken, and it was phenomenal, and I felt like I was eating pasta, but no sugar, no grains, virtually no calories which obviously calories don’t matter but it’s nice that you can eat a lot of it and it’s not gonna impact your insulin levels.

Evan Brand:  That is so cool, yeah, and I’ll speak for—for myself and possibly you, too—put it this way. I love eating if this way of eating was horrible, I wouldn’t do it. I mean, I am not missing out on taste or pleasure from my food at all. I’m more satiated than ever before. I feel so much better. My brain works so much better. The—there is light at the end of the tunnel for sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, my favorite line is nothing tastes as good as good feels.

Evan Brand:  Say that again.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nothing tastes as good as good feels.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Meaning, it—for me it’s more rewarding to feel good later than to get that short taste in the moment of some crappy inflammatory foods. Because in the end it’s great but then I just feel crappy. I’m bloated. I’m gassy. I got brain fog. So you gotta weigh in that, you gotta weigh in the deleterious side effects with that short-term thing and a lot of times, there’s a risk for more analysis you can do where you can do where you can pull out some sugar, maybe use some Stevia or Xylitol or cut down the carbs or do a different source there that’s less inflammatory where you feel good and then honestly, if you’re like, “Screw it!” Well, throw in some charcoal. Take a whole bunch of charcoal to help decrease the toxins. That’s another good Plan B.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I feel like we’re rambling at this point. I feel like this is the talk after the first cider has set in—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Evan Brand:  After the main conversation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes. I know. Nice little tidbit for anyone listening though. These are all gems I think though.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, let’s wrap this thing up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  Go check out Justin’s site. Justinhealth.com and then check out NotJustPaleo.com. You could reach out to one of us, get help, get to the root cause. Justin’s got some free thyroid videos. I’ve got some videos on my site as well you could check out. So plenty of information. There’s no shortage of—of clinical pearls at this point I don’t think.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. Anyone that’s—well, everyone that’s getting ready to celebrate their holidays, I wish you a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, and if you’re kinda on the fence here trying to figure out when’s a good time to make changes in your health because you’re struggling, now’s always a great time. The New Year is coming up, so feel free and reach out to Evan or myself. Info is below and we wish you a super happy and healthy new year.

Evan Brand:  Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Thanks, Evan. You, too.

Evan Brand:  Bye.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bye.

Addressing reoccurring gut infections – Podcast #115

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand talk all about gut testing today. Find out about the protocols they’ve done and what additional tests and new recommendations they have in battling gut issues when you listen to this podcast.

bauchschmerzenLearn how it is quite normal for a new infection to pop up after having been treated with an initial infection. Discover what steps you can take to effectively treat these parasites and other digestive issues. Find out what different parasites can cause infections and how you can get tested for them.

In this episode, topics include:

02:47 Evan’s testing and symptoms

09:19 Next steps and recommendations

14:39 Additional testing and treating new infections

19:30 Dr. Justin’s lab tests

25:40 Conventional vs functional medicine treatment

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Evan Brand, it’s Dr. J, man! How are things going?

Evan Brand:  Hey, things are good! Winters coming, unfortunately it’s rainy and cold here today. What about—how you doing?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, it’s actually about 75 and sunny and really nice today. So it couldn’t be better.

Evan Brand:  I—I do miss the weather. I do miss the Austin weather.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, It is, in general, it is quite good especially this time of year. I was actually last weekend waterskiing just before Thanksgiving and it was perfect. I mean, the temperature of the water was great. I didn’t even have to pull out my wet suit yet.

Evan Brand:  Wow, that’s—that’s awesome. I miss the weather and the food.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, absolutely. And it’s been a while since we chatted a bit. I’m, you know, I need my Evan Brand daily dose here.

Evan Brand:  Hey, man. I agree. It’s a pleasure talking with you as always.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. I know you been doing the Adrenal Summit with Dr. Christiansen, which is great. How did the Summit go?

Evan Brand:  Oh, man. It went good. I think we ended up with like 60 or 70,000 people registered so it was much bigger than Alan and I anticipated. I don’t know why or how it became so much more successful but put it this way, I’ve spent many hours on the phone with HostGator trying to upgrade the hosting. We ended up having to get a dedicated server because they said, “Oh, yeah. With this upgrade should handle your traffic,” and then we upgraded again and still crashed it. So we ended up having to get an insanely expensive server just to handle the traffic. So that’s a good problem to have. I’ve—I’ve not had that much success with something to continually crash and crash and crash websites so that’s cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely, that’s a definitely what we call a better quality problem for sure and if anyone’s listening and wants to get access to the Summit, what’s the best way for them to do so.

Evan Brand:  They could just check out adrenalresetsummit.com and they can check it out. There’s 34 speakers including yours which I think was definitely top three talks for sure. Your talk on conventional versus functional treatment of adrenal issues. They can get your talk, the transcripts, all that stuff if they get the—the full package.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s awesome. Very, very cool. Well, today we talked about gut testing. I know we reported on a podcast we did back I think early in the spring where we reviewed some of your lab tests and then we talked about reviewing some of mine. So today we’re going to review some of my older podcast or my older labs that we did on an earlier podcast, as well as some of yours and some of the retest, and basically the moral the story on this—on this podcast will be recurrent gut infections. Great! You’ve gone through a second, a third round, what do you do? What’s the next up? And typically, other things that happen like what if a new infection comes up that wasn’t present the first time, which happened in your case that I’m really excited to go over.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, absolutely. So where should we start? Should we start at my first symptoms when you saw me and you like—you said, “Evan, man, that looks like you got an infection.” Where should we start the journey?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think there will be a good place and then also reviewing the labs that we did back in the spring, kinda reviewing the results of those and then sliding up to present day with you and present day with myself.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I wanna hear about yours, too. So with my—with myself, you know, it took me a while maybe 3-4 months before actually got the test run, wife was busy, we were moving, you said, “Evan, get checked out.” That was like right when I was moving, you know, to—back to Kentucky.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  So I the test done. I got the 401H run and that’s where we found the abundant growth of E. coli, that’s where we found the Cryptosporidium, the Giardia. Both of those are bad parasites. You do not want those and so–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%.

Evan Brand:  That’s when—that’s when you and I talked and crafted a protocol together about what we should do to get rid of these things and then it took me from March until August to get the retest of the same lab. The Crypto and Giardia gone. Great. Did not show up with parasites.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nice.

Evan Brand:  Something that was detected that wasn’t detected before is H. Pylori. So as of August, the H. pylori showed up and then you and I chatted again about, well, what should we do now? What’s next steps for gut—got gut protocols for H. pylori. So I’m finishing up H. pylori protocol. I plan to retest probably January-February. I’ll do a retest and see—see what’s going on. See if the H. pylori’s gone. Symptoms, skin has improved massively. I’ve showed you and you’re like, “Wow.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I could see it in your videos. You—you’ve better skin tone, a little clearer and less—less redness or irritation. So I can definitely see a huge improvement on your skin.

Evan Brand:  I—I didn’t realize how inflamed my face was and having breakouts.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm., Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand:  So I didn’t realize how profound it was until it’s gone. It’s almost like these infections have played dingdong ditch on my skin for so long that I didn’t remember what clear good skin should feel and look like. So that—that’s a massive improvement. Energy levels have gotten better. Sleep is way better. I was waking up in the middle of the night all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  When I had those parasites especially around full moons. Now I’m getting some of the best sleep. Also adding the fact that I moved away so—from those high electromagnetic fields, now I’m sleeping better than I have since I was probably 8-9 years old.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Evan Brand:  Like I feel like I’m sleeping like a little baby, like a kid again, and it’s remarkable.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. So in general just kinda going back and letting the listeners know a little bit more about your history in case they’re coming into a this a little bit late. You did have a history a while back with IBS, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, that’s what started this whole journey back 2008-2009–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  When I was in college. I mean, the first thing I had to do when I went into a building was figure out where the bathroom was because–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yeah.

Evan Brand:  I may have to run to the bathroom and that was a—a life, in a lifestyle strategy that I assumed, maybe some people dealt with but it just became normal, right? I mean, I didn’t think anything of it. I knew it sucked. I knew it wasn’t fun but I didn’t know there was a way out. And I went to the conventional docs, they prescribed three drugs which I did not fill any of the prescriptions, acid blocker, anti-spasmodic and some other type of drug, did not take any of those. Removing gluten basically cured 80% of the issue.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  But 20% of the issue remain where I had this cyclical issue with my gut where every month or every couple months, you know, symptoms would pop up. Maybe get some loose stool and then things would go back to normal. And you think, “Oh, maybe it was just something I ate, maybe I got gluten somewhere, but no it was these infections.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly and the big thing, too, some of the symptoms that you experience after you cut the gluten out even though you had these infections, you had a big improvement with some of the IBS symptoms—bloating, diarrhea, constipation, those kind of things. But you still had other symptoms, right? You are very blood sugar sensitive. You had the cold hands and cold feet, and sometimes you’d have some like some panic attacks, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Anxiety, heightened anxiety.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I remember—I remember calling you when I was still in Austin. We were going to move and I said, “Dude, I cannot slow my heart down. My—my heart is beating out of my chest. This is abnormal.” Now granted there was a huge amount of lifestyle stress. I think we were moving–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Evan Brand:  Driving cross-country in two days. I mean, there was huge–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Huge.

Evan Brand:  Impending stress, but I was still adrenally fatigued where I was not able to handle it. And my adrenals showed low which I’m going to say is due to some of the malnutrition cause from the digestive issues. My fingernails had the vertical lines. The weight loss like I told you and you saw me when I moved to Austin, I was about 160 pounds and I was down to like high 130s or 140. I lost 20 pounds in a year without trying which some peeps, “Oh, Even, I want that problem.” No, you don’t. No, you don’t.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. It’s definitely not a good type of weight loss, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, exactly. So weight has stabilized. I’m actually approaching 150 pounds. So I’ve gained back—what is that? About 12—mmm, give or take 5, 5 to 12 pounds, just depending on what my official starting point was when the weight loss stopped.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And very little diet changes because you were really on point. I think the only thing we tweaked in your diet is pulling out a little bit more dairy.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, unfortunately I had to get rid of the—the organic raw, grass-fed cheeses that I love. The—they’re gone. So now I just do a little bit of butter, some ghee.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you did a lot better. I remember seeing your skin really improved when we pulled out the—the dairy, that last piece there.

Evan Brand:  Yeah. Yup, absolutely, man.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then tell me about that the—the cold hands and cold feet. How’s that improved since we knocked out the Crypto and the Blasto—or no, Crypto and Giardia?

Evan Brand:  Cold hands, cold feet still there like I told you. I—I’m wearing these elk moccasins with sheep skin in them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Any change at all? Any change at all? 5, 10, 15%?

Evan Brand:  I—I say nothing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Evan Brand:  I think—I think no change at all.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But the bigger change you’d say would be more of the mood stuff, the anxiety, those kind of things?

Evan Brand:  Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Evan Brand:  I mean mood’s much better. Brain fog, you know, if we looked at—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Brain fog, yup.

Evan Brand:  If we looked at the 02, you know, we had high candida markers on there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The fungus. Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so the yeast problem was also causing bloating which was unusual for me. I’d never have bloating before. And when you see—we see people joke about, “Oh, I feel pregnant.” No, for real like you can have massive yeast problems that can be—that can be successfully treated. So the—so the yeast gone. I have no bloating issues anymore, but the cold hands, cold feet, we gotta figure that one out. So if you help me figure that one out, I’m gonna be eternally grateful.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and it could be some type of inflamed—inflammatory type of thing that’s affecting your thyroid or your adrenals. We’d have to look at your adrenals again. That’d probably be the next step and we got some—some potential test coming up soon. Go ahead.

Evan Brand:  Thyroid—thyroid looked good. I remember we talked about that. We looked at antibodies, looked at thyroid levels. I’d have to look back again but it checked out okay. There was no—no Hashimoto’s, nothing that looked really out of whack. So maybe we’ll have to see once this new adrenal test that I told you about the other day, once we get that run on ourselves we’ll have to see what’s—what’s changed. Maybe there’s still some lingering adrenal issues. I would say so, because any type of days where I’m really pushing it, you know, 12-16 hour days, I feel it. I’m like, “Oh, that was too much, too hard.” So I think there’s still some adrenal recovery going on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And one thing we miss though during your last lab test. I have your lab test up here now. Do I have permission to—to go over it?

Evan Brand:  Sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, cool. Your TSH came back really good, 1.290.  Your T3 actually looked pretty good, 3.5. One thing I noticed though is your T4 Free was very high, 1.82. That’s off the charts. So I would be curious to see what you’re reverse T3 levels are like. I would not be–

Evan Brand:  I don’t think it was on the panel.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nope.

Evan Brand:  Was it?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  No, it was not.

Evan Brand:  Darn it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I would not be surprised if your reverse T3 levels were very high because I’m seeing a very high amount of T4 and then a good amount T3. So there’s a—a spillage with that T4 to T3 conversion. So I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw an increase in reverse T3, which you know, are the metabolic blanks that fill up the—the space for the bullets and the clip, right?

Evan Brand:  So, wouldn’t this be pointing us back to the adrenals again?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand:  As a major factor?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, one thing that I think we’ll have to do next–yeah, one thing I think we’ll do next is we could talk about looking at the new Biohealth Adrenal Test that’ll be coming out soon which I’m really excited about that we talked about last week.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  As well as comparing it to the Dutch. I love to see looking at both of those side-by-side what kind of Intel we get and I wouldn’t be surprised over time once we get you fully infection-free because that H. pylori, like we said, is still there. So that’s probably affecting stomach acid and enzyme levels and mineral absorption.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So we gotta make sure you’re on hydrochloric acid. How’s that going with you?

Evan Brand:  Oh, I take enzymes like Skittles, so I love them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about hydrochloric acid thought?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, HCl, I’m getting about 600, 4 to 600 mg–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Per meal?

Evan Brand:  With each meal. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I would say taper it up to 3000 mg per meal, so about five capsules of HCl combined. In Dr. Jonathan Wright’s book about, you know, why you need stomach acid. He finds people may need, clinically up from 1000 up to 5000 mg of betaine. So I kind of go somewhere in the middle because I don’t want you to get a peptic ulcer.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So I would—I would try inching up to 4 to 5 capsules slowly in the middle of the meal and just make sure you’re not getting any warmness or irritation.

Evan Brand:  So you’re thinking about of a—a gram on the low end then?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  On the low end, you should be starting there and then working your way up. I’ll go up to at least 3 g.

Evan Brand:  Mmkay. So-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  300 mg, 3 g.

Evan Brand:  So what—what I’ve been using, I’ve been experimenting with the pure—I’ll—I’ll send you—I’ll send it to you about the Pure Encapsulations one where they have— I wanna say there’s 250 HCl in each capsule, and then plus—plus all the enzymes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So what I do with patient like yourself–

Evan Brand:  So would you say add–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm., go ahead.

Evan Brand:  I was gonna say, so with these extra enzymes I’m not sure if I really need X amount of protease x 5, so I wonder–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bingo! Yup.

Evan Brand:  H—HCl by itself.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bingo! You’re leading me.

Evan Brand:  Then would be the solution.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. So when I’m dealing with patients, typically anyone that has a gut-related issue where we see digestive-related issues or digestive-related gut infections, depending on how bad their gut is, we’ll either separate the enzymes from the HCl just so we can get the pill count more reasonable for the HCl because a lot of the combo ones are about 200 mg. So you need about three times more pills to get the same HCl amount and that becomes a little, you know, convoluted when you’re taking 15 or 16 capsules per meal.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So would like the HCl like in my line, it’s HCl Supreme at anywhere between 1 to 5 capsules which that’ll—the 5 will get you about 3 g or 3000 mg on the high-end and then play with the enzymes been 1 and 3, 1 and 2 will probably be fine with the enzymes per meal.

Evan Brand:  Mmkay. I’m gonna do it. Let’s see what happens.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when I say play with it, what I mean is with the HCl you have a palpable effet, right? You get the irritation or the—the warmness, right? Those—that kind of feeling with the HCl. Take in the middle the meal. With the enzymes, it’s hard to say. So get the HCl dose gonna fine-tuned first and then once you have the HCl dose, just taper up the enzymes and see if you notice an improvement with how you feel. Like it may just be lighter after a meal, better bowel movements. You just feel like there’s less bloating or less digestive issues, better regularity, start with one. See how you do and then go up to 2, and see if you notice an improvement with any of those symptoms I just mentioned. If you notice an improvement, keep it at the higher dose. If you don’t notice an improvement, you can just keep at the one capsule per meal kinda standard dose.

Evan Brand:  So how do you feel about upping the pepsin, because I’m—we’re gonna be upping in pepsin closer to a gram there for it, you know, 3 g of betaine, we may be at a gram of pepsin. How do you feel about that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It’s fine. No problem with that.

Evan Brand:  That’s good. Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup, no problem with that. So looking at your test I would just say the thyroid, I’d like to redo it with the reverse T3 and then follow up with those 2 adrenal tests just because it’d be really great to biohack that and present it to the listeners.

Evan Brand:  I know. Were—were the antibodies on there? I couldn’t remember.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  They were and they came back good, 5 on the TPO which is great, you know, anything below the teens is fine, and then below the one on the thyroglobulin antibody which look good as well.

Evan Brand:  Cool, excellent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, very cool. So recapping, right? You came back with Crypto-Giardia to start and some fungal issues, right? And then we retested and then we saw Crypto and Giardia gone–

Evan Brand:  H. pylori.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But H. pylori popped up. So this is kind of irritating for a lot of people that have an infection. They get it treated. We see some results with those initial infections being knocked down but a new one pops up. And typically what happens is gut infections can kind of burrow in to the gut wall, so they go, you know, more superficial, right? More distal, the proximal in relation to the gut wall. So they—they burrow deeper in. So typically what happens is the gut lining heals from inside—or I should say from the outer layer to the inner, deeper gut—gut wall layer. So outer layer to deeper gut wall and if infections are penetrating deep into the crypts or into the gut lining or gut wall, then it may take time for them to show up on a stool test. So t typically we knock out those infections, they can hide in what’s called the crypts and we can get this crypt hyperplasia phenomenon where they dive deep into the crypts, so if you look at your hand where your fingers meet your palm, that little indentation, that little U spot, that’s like the crypts. So imagine the outer gut lining, right? The outer gut lining is like the fingertips and the inner gut wall is like the palm, and it can hide in where those fingers actually meet the palm and that’s like the analogy of the crypts in relation to your hand, so you can physically see it. So that’s kinda, as we go deeper in, and we go from like the first knuckle to the second knuckle to the actual palm part where the infections burrow deeper in in relation to your gut.

Evan Brand:  Yeah and we’ve discussed that on previous podcasts about healing from the inside out or the outside in, however, you—you want to say it but this is the proof right here. I mean, here these infections are they’re gone but then something else is still there. So basically what you’re saying is with this H. pylori, you’re saying that would’ve been a deeper infection, so maybe longer-lasting or you—you’re thinking maybe H. pylori, the Crypto-Giardia, but since we’re working from the outside in and we’re working deeper now that the H. pylori has now revealed itself. Is that right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I think it was always there and now because the immune system has been supported by just knocking out some of these infections, and the gut has kind of healed somewhat, so we’re kinda getting down into the deeper parts of the gut where some of these infections may have been buried deep. And H. pylori is known to burrow deeper into the gut lining, too, right? So scen—two scenarios, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Number one—actually three scenarios. Number one, the infection wasn’t there and it was a new—it was reinfection over the last 2 or 3 months during treatment. Scenario number two is the infection was missed by the lab or scenario number three, the crypt hyperplasia phenomenon and you know, sometimes it can be typically two or three. The lab may have missed it. That’s why a lot of times we run 2 tests with patients that we highly suspect of gut issues and as you talked about, I’m not sure if we mentioned it, but your GI Map that we ran side-by-side the 401 missed the H. pylori. So little bit different, but the 401 also is the H. pylori antigen where the GI Map was a DNA test for the H. pylori. So the antigen’s the gold standard, right? We have a higher level of false negatives than positives. So the fact that we got a positive on the test is a really good sign we know it’s there.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So again, infections kind of burrow in to the gut lining deeper into the gut walls, so the gut’s gonna heal from the outside in and being deeper into the gut wall where those fingers meet your hands so to speak, and that’s what tends to happen we get these infections come into the surface. So with you, we have the H. pylori present but the Blasto—or the Crypto and the Giardia is clear. Is that correct?

Evan Brand:  That’s right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Excellent because the Giardia and the Crypto are much more virulent infections than H. pylori.

Evan Brand:  I know. I’m glad those were gone. I was thrilled. That was a great day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And so we tweaked your protocol a little bit and we’re gonna check in and see where you’re at in the next month or two.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, we’ll see January, come round the time of my birthday or so. We’ll see what’s going and hopefully I’ll be sym—you know, infection-free for my birthday. That’d be a good goal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I agree. Anything else you wanna add to what we just chatted about?

Evan Brand:  I don’t think so. I’m excited to talk about yours.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, absolutely. So I did some lab tests, too. Okay and I’ve been doing lab tests for years on myself, so it’s always fun to see what new stuff comes back, plus some–

Evan Brand:  So where should we start—where should we start your journey. I wanna hear what you think is your starting point.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, I mean right now gut-wise, I’m pretty darn good, like no real symptoms with my gut unless I eat some bad food. So I try to, you know, for the most part be 80% Autoimmune Paleo, and with the exception of, you know, some nuts and here and there and a little bit of butter here and there, but outside of that I’m pretty–

Evan Brand:  Chocolate.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Pretty sure, yes, a little bit of dark chocolate. That’s kind of debatable but you know, high-quality 90% organic, you know, good dark chocolate. So that’s kinda where I live most of the time.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And typically I never cheat with gluten. If I cheat, I try to always make sure it’s a gluten-free cheat just because, you know, why not? I have options to do that and I know how good I feel being off that. So that’s where I’m at there.

Evan Brand:  I agree.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I have a previous history of Hashimoto’s, I mean slightly elevated antibodies, so I gotta be careful with gluten. So I’m really diligent to make sure that’s a priority to not get exposed to that kryptonite for me. That’s number one. Number two, I’ve done gut test and I’ve had relatively good success with being clear with infections. I came back I think in 2009 with the equivocal Giardia infection. I cleared that out. I had a lot of fungal stuff in the past. So I’ve really knocked out fungus, little bit of Giardia in the past. And my most recent lab test in the 401, I actually came back clean. I mean nothing. No growth, no bacterial issues, no, nothing. So I was really excited about that and then on the GI Map test, I did come back with a little bit of C. diff, a little bit of salmonella, a little bit enterococcus overgrowth, a little bit Morganella morganii, and then a little of Geotrichum fungus and–and some lower enzyme. So you know, I’ve upped my HCl, upped my enzymes, we’re knocking out some of the bacteria and that bacteria isn’t that bad. That’s kind of benign stuff, so we’re knocking that down right now, and then I also ran the DRG. So I ran the DRG, the GI Map, and the 401H, all at the same time, which is really cool. And on the DRG, I came back with a little bit elevations in fecal fat which we kinda suspect right because my enzymes were lower so we’re upping the enzymes, upping the HCl a bit, that’s—I’m confident it’s helping. E. histo came back slightly elevated. Come back—came back at 688 on the GI Map—I’m sorry, on the DRG. Anything 350 or higher is considered positive and–

Evan Brand:  So let—so say that one more time. So anything above 350 is a positive for the histolytica and you were what?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I was 688, so I was–

Evan Brand:  Ahh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Almost twice the limit.

Evan Brand:  Tell people—tell people what that is, just so they don’t like glaze over and glaze over and go like, “Whoa! Histolytica, what is that?” Talk us through it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so a Entamoeba histolytica, it’s an amoebic infection. The histo- means cell, -lytic means to cut, so it’s an amoebic infection the cuts through cells, right? Doesn’t sound too nice. We see it quite frequently but it’s, you know, on the nastier side. It’s a pretty bad infection. Dr. Kalish was one of his weak links that really knocked him out for a bit, infection-wise. Other people and clinicians I know have gotten it and been hurt by it, but it’s a nasty infection. It’s an amoeba. So it’s gonna be small. You’re not gonna see it in your stool. I do a lot of waterskiing in Lake Austin so it’s possible it maybe some water. I swallowed some water and I got it that way. I go to Mexico quite frequently, so it’s hard so it’s hard to say what the vector was, but we’re knocking it out. We’re knocking it out right now. I’m on a protocol, just about to be finished, and I’ll be retesting soon and we’ll report our retest results for the listeners.

Evan Brand:  Awesome, awesome. Yeah, I think—I think it’s probably—my guess is the waterskiing. Now, what makes me wonder though. Let’s just say that if—maybe you did swallow water, you probably did, but what if it went up your nose, too. So let’s say you fall off the skis, the water goes up the nose. Could you get the same level of—what would you call that? I guess you would just call it an infection. Would—can—can you get that same amount or is the same amount of susceptibility to the infection nasally as opposed to orally?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I would say it’s possible for sure. I would say it’s definitely possible. I’m not a—I don’t see many nasal parasitic infections. I mean you’re gonna have a lot of IGA and immune membrane protection there that’s gonna help kind of knock things down. Plus I think–

Evan Brand:  Well, I just wonder—sorry, I don’t mean to interrupt you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, no problem.

Evan Brand:  I was just wondering if you get it up your nose and then you feel it drain down into your throat and then go into the GI tract that way.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, that’s what I would imagine what happened because your body’s gonna produce mucus and things to—to slide it down into the gut because the gut’s got a highly acidic environment where it can kinda be like bleach on that dirty picnic table and kinda clean things up. So I would imagine the body’s gonna start the immune response there, and also flush it into the stomach.

Evan Brand:  But if HCl was low due to–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Stress.

Evan Brand:  Stress.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, poor habits, eating gluten.

Evan Brand:  Then that could have led to the inability for that infection to become more invasive, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Evan Brand:  So now that the enzymes are there. If you’re in the same situation again. Let’s just say maybe it was from skiing, if you’re taking enzymes now as a pre-ski supplement, then it’ll you know, that’s—that’s gonna significantly increase your protection. Wouldn’t you say? Because anything that does–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yeah.

Evan Brand:  Get down, there—there’s protection there. So maybe you did like an Epic barn and enzymes before you went skiing or something.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, maybe maybe some enzymes, some probiotics, HCl, maybe a little bit of herbs. I tried to do a little bit of herbs with some probiotics just to make sure that doesn’t happen. But there’s, you know, there’s the two types of scenarios where this happens, right? There’s the opportunistic bug where you’re your immuno compromised, you’re stressed, your diet’s not good. A lot of physical, chemical, and emotional stress overload and your immune system is now weakened and then these critters kinda sneak their way to the front door, right? That’s like the first scenario. Scenario number two is you get hit with a whole bunch of infectious debris, and it’s like having a gang of people outside your door knocking it down, where you’re kinda defenseless, right? So scenario is kind of a chronic set up where you’re compromised. Scenario number two is you‘re just overwhelmed with the amount of debris coming in there and it’s harder for your immune system to respond.

Evan Brand:  Yup, could you speak on the conventional treatment for this. I think sometimes you and I we love functional medicine so much, we forget that there are conventional practices out there which are typically very inferior for this type of issue?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, for conventional parasite, the most common medication that’s gonna be prescribed is gonna be Flagyl or metronidazole that’s gonna be thrown at people. Typically 1 to 2 weeks at the most, and that may work a third of the time, and quite frequently it won’t work at least two-thirds of the time and then you have more conventional docs that have—are using more let’s say advanced type of antibiotics that may work better where it’s a paromomycin or it’s Nidazole or Alinea or Humatin, so there’s other medications that may be used. Again I like to use the herbs first because of their safety record, tend to be a little bit more selecting towards the bad critters and away from a good, and then to also working its biofilms, too, and they have synergistic effects like berberines and Artemisia work really strong together and if you add in silver, it can also make the herbs work better and then you have other herbs like clove or grapefruit seed extract that may be beneficial for fungus as well. So there’s a lot of synergy that you get with the herbs and you can do it longer term without the side effects that you get from the antibiotics.

Evan Brand:  I love it. I love it. Well, thanks for bringing that up because I know you’ve had clients and patients say the same thing they say to me which is, “Oh, Evan. I’ve done all the herbs. They don’t work.” And it’s like maybe you’ve just not done the herbs long enough. Maybe the practitioner didn’t create a protocol that was effective enough, but the herbs do work and you and I see it every single week in the clinic that it’s real and you absolutely can’t get rid of infections with functional medicine and the right type of approach.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100% and again it’s gonna come down to what’s the infection and then the dose, you know, we’re using much higher doses. I mean, typically, if you look on the instructions of some of the supplements we’ll use, the dose is probably 75% less recommended and then we use a lot of herbs and nutrients together synergistically. And the key is in my opinion that really helps is we’re building up the immune system by making the diet, the lifestyle changes, supporting the adrenals and/or other hormonal imbalances before we go after the infection. That’s what really supports the immune system so it makes the whole process of eradication much easier and easier to—to rebound back from both.

Evan Brand:  Well, that and the fact that you and I both use professional healthcare companies to manufacture our product. So if we’re comparing–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yeah.

Evan Brand:  A consumer grade herb say from Now Foods or Gaia Herbs or something like that, which can be great. Compared to a professional healthcare product, I mean the quality is completely different, much, much higher. So when you get, say 250 mg of something, you’re actually getting that or you’re getting close as you can to that, versus with consumer grade products that you may buy at Whole Foods, you can’t say the same about absorption rates and bioavailability, things like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, absolutely and then we’re combining it, and then the real key thing is we test afterwards, right? You never wanna guess. You wanna test. So then we’ll follow up with that retest and like in your situation, we know the H. pylori came—the H. pylori was—was there, right? That was a new infection. So now that’s on our bull’s-eye. We tweak your protocol a bit and make sure everything’s dialed in and then we go back to the drawing board. So the next step for you is while we’re doing all these things with the H. pylori is get that adrenal re-tested and see where we’re at with it and then the next step would be support whatever systems are out of balance with the adrenals and the thyroid and make sure you’re infection-free.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, and I’m going to continue to—I took a little break from adaptogens but I’m gonna continue to add adaptogens back again. I can feel it. I got out of the sauna the other day and I was—I took a shower. I just had a real, real light breakfast, didn’t—didn’t have much at all and—and I had some shakes going on in my hand, so I knew it was a combination of maybe like a healing reaction, but some adrenal stress, too. I could feel it. I was like, “Oh, man.” It’s like Justin, he’s in my head. “Blood sugar, Evan. Blood sugar.” So you know, I had to eat something and—and felt significantly better. But I know there’s still—there’s still some work to be done on the chemical front, too. You and I—we’ll have to do another show if we haven’t already on the GPL talks and we need to get you checked out, too, because I had those insecticides on that GPL that were off the charts and those are probable carcinogens. So that’s a whole another, a whole another podcast.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, we’re gonna have to get that done and we’ll do a whole podcast on that. So kinda wrapping things up for you, knocked out 2 infections, Crypto-Giardia, awesome, really, really good there. Myself, I just came back with the E. histo and a little bit of bacteria and a very small amount of fungus, cleaning that up, been doing that for the last two months, getting ready to retest soon, and again the key thing is doing 2 tests was helpful. I find this really helpful–

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Especially when you really want to rule out gut stuff and then outside of that, following up with the retest and making sure everything else is dialed in.

Evan Brand:  Yup. Are you doing any—any oreganos for like that geotrichum or some of the other fungus.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. Yeah. My line—I used the GI Clear 5 and I use that at 6-8, 6-9 capsules that I hit it up pretty hard and then I—

Evan Brand:  Wow.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I followed up with the GI Clear 4 in my line and then I rotate between the 1 and the 6. I went back and forth and I add a little bit of silver, you know, again, I could do a little bit more intricate things because I know I’m gonna do it, but sometimes with patients the big thing you gotta do is compliance ,right? So if you get too intricate with patients, it may create some compliance issues. So I try to keep it more simple, but for myself I—I played around with mixing some things on and off which can be helpful, but again even just going at it straightforward would probably knock the infection out. No problem.

Evan Brand:  Agreed, man, so you’re—you’re hitting it pretty darn hard then, 9 of those a day?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, yeah, just about done though. I think I used my last GI Clear 4 this morning so I’m switching over to probiotics I think tonight and then I gotta get those tests back in and retest by the end of the year.

Evan Brand:  Yup, how long—how long was your—was your protocol. Was it—did you do 4, 6, 8 weeks?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I did about 8-10 weeks.

Evan Brand:  Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I was off for a little bit because I was traveling. It was tough to—to bring everything but I—

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I was able to maintain it pretty well. Typically if I cheat with the herbs, I’ll at least take morning and night so when I wake up–

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when I go to bed, so at least can get both those in.

Evan Brand:  So if compliance is 90%. Most cases you’re gonna do well. Like you said, if the foundations are already built into place and diet, lifestyle, stress management strategies, all that’s in place, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, so the key things is if I miss my afternoon dose, I make sure if I’m supposed to get 6 of 1 pill, I wanna make sure it’s 3 and 3. I don’t do 2 and 2, and then just say, well, I’ll go with a, you know, a 30% less dose. No, I keep the dose the same. We just double up.

Evan Brand:  Now, so do you believe—do you put faith in the idea or the term, a healing reaction, or do you think that’s just an overhyped term that’s kind of an excuse for someone that’s not getting supported properly, meaning someone’s hitting something too hard but the practitioner maybe is not giving them the proper liver support or if this person is not pooping enough and they’re really constipated that they’re having some of that autointoxication that way.  I mean, is there something to healing reactions or do you think that there’s maybe another part of the wheel that just hasn’t been cranked at the same time that you’re killing this stuff off?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think both. I think if someone’s having a healing reaction to start at the normal dose, it tells me that their infection is quite virulent and their immune system and lymphatic system and detox are having a difficult time. I went right up to the full dose with mine and I’d no problem, like not one symptoms.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Maybe a tiny but of lethargy or fatigue. No issue. So if a patient goes up to that full dose and they have reaction, it tells me something. It tells me there’s probably a lot of debris the body is trying to respond to and—and kinda flush out and it’s having a difficult time, so you know, our list making sure diet and blood sugar is there and making sure sleep’s there, and making sure waters there, right? Once that’s off our list, making sure we have adrenal support, digestive support, and nutrient support. Good, now that’s off our list. Then we go to the infection and if we’re still having that, during the infectious time and we’re pooping regularly and bowel movements are regular, well, the real simple thing is we cut everything down, cut it out 2-3 days, get symptom-free, add everything one at a time half dose to full dose, and if we’re really sensitive we may go quarter to half to three-quarters to full. Then add the next product in and as long as we don’t have a negative reaction, we go up to the full dose. If we have a negative reaction, we back off, go to the next product. Like so if it’s at 4 caps, the reaction happens, well, great. Back down to 3. No problem.

Evan Brand:  Move on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Go to the next one. Move on. And then once you get everything back in, then you got back up to the first one again and you try inching it back to the full dose. So that’s my supplement reaction or my detox protocol, and then we’ll typically add in side-by-side that is some ginger tea, some activated charcoal, and/or bentonite clay or diatomaceous earth. I typically pick one. I’ve been going more with the charcoal in the DE these days. We’ll even throw in some fiber. It just depends with patients.

Evan Brand:  I love charcoal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand:  Charcoal is amazing. I mean, I’m visualizing this. It’s so fun because it’s almost like being a sound mixer. You picture—you picture the guy at the concert, you know, he has this little lever over here, this little dial. He spins this dial this way, backs this dial down, pulls up this little switch, flips that level, turns that button—boop! I mean, it’s his—it’s so fun to do this stuff, man. It never gets old.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I totally agree. So regarding the healing crisis, I think it means something, but I always tell people, don’t be the tough person. Don’t try to tough it out. It means something.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Back off. Get the ginger tea in. If you want to throw in some charcoal in between meals or some extra fiber, fine, and then we’ll gradually increase at one by one. Now typically anyone that has a long history of autoimmune stuff or gut stuff, I always go slow but sometimes you get people that are doing pretty well and then you’re like, well, let’s just back right in to a full dose and they get hit by a bus.

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So we just go back, quarter, half, three-quarters, full or we just start at a quarter half and then increase and any negative reactions, back off to the last safest dose, or—and then move on to the next supplement.

Evan Brand:  You’re not going to win a trophy if you finish your protocol faster than somebody else.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, exactly.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Most times if we had add the detox support and curtail the dose, it’s like throwing the lobster in the water that’s already cold. It doesn’t scream, you know, you can—you can just turn it up slowly. No problem. You throw the lobster in the hot water, man. Those things make a, you know, some nice screamy noises that aren’t too pleasant. Even though I love lobster, I hate that—that part so–

Evan Brand:  I’ve—I’ve not cooked lobster to—to experience that myself.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, yeah. I have a lot of empathy for animals but I also know it’s the circle of life, and there’s a lot nutrient density, but that’s the whole analogy is, going back, is if you slower you don’t get the—the nasty effects, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Instead of lobster screaming at your body and your tummy and your limb screaming.

Evan Brand:  So for you hopefully on retest, everything’s gone. We’re hoping nothing extra shows up for you like a deeper H. pylori infection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s the goal. Yup. I’m i’m feeling pretty good about it, man.

Evan Brand:  Awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cool, very cool. Well, anything you want to address, Evan?

Evan Brand:  I don’t think so. I think this was well said and we should wrap it up. I think if we keep going then people will fall asleep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yeah.

Evan Brand:  So hopefully this was entertaining and I mean, talk about a level of transparency, I don’t think there’s anything higher than what we’re doing and what we’re talking about, so I hope you all enjoyed that and—and appreciate that fact because it—it’s rare to find this level of transparency and we have nothing to lose. I mean, this is—we’re in the trenches every day. So I mean, this is what it’s all about.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think people will really have a lot to learn seeing that their—their doctor or their healthcare practitioner is in the trenches, too, and doing it and still working on their health. And again, I can’t think of any people on, you know, health people on the iTunes or on the Internet world that are getting this level of transparency and exposure out to their listeners.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I mean, not that we have the time to go and—and research, but I feel like we would’ve known by now if somebody was revealing everything. There’s this weird perception, you know, where if you’re the practitioner, you’re the expert, you know, you’re the—the caretaker that everything is just 100% perfect and that’s not true. There’s many different exposures. I mean, you and I do as much as possible as we can to do everything right, but you still go skiing in water where there could be something.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  I’m convinced that I got the Crypto and/or the Giardia from swimming in Barton Springs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  I took in a huge amount of water. So life still happens and as much as you and I can do the things to try to create these little bubbles of you know, a nutrition bubble and lifestyle, and all these great little parts of our ecosystem, we still operate in an ecosystem that is generally pretty toxic in terms of all the things that are out in the air, food, water, soil and you’re going—you’re going to come across stuff and it is just about what do you do to increase your resilience against these things once you kill them off, like you said was some of the post infection support, you know, people may hear—hear this and think oh kill, kill, kill, but eventually we’re strengthening us, too, as the host and so that’s why you and I, you know, maybe we take an extra day off or we go spend some more time in nature because that’s the stuff that’s going to heal you in the long term. You know, you can—you can continue to go through rounds of a gut killing protocol, but at the end of the day, if you’re not healthy, you’re going to continue to get reinfected because the host is weak and if the host is weak, then I mean, that—that’s something Reed Davis said to me, that I though was pretty profound. He’s like,
“Kill, kill, kill.” He said, “But you gotta fix you, too.” The host has gotta be resilient. So that’s where the adaptogens and all the other fun stuff that we chat about comes in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely and if you guys listening and really enjoying it, give us a nice review on iTunes. You can click the link below. We appreciate your support. Anything else, Evan?

Evan Brand:  I don’t think so.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, man. Great chat today. I look forward doing this again real soon.

Evan Brand:  You, too. Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You, too. Bye.

Evan Brand:  Bye.

 

Coffee, Caffeine and The Adrenal Fatigue Connection

Coffee, caffeine, and the adrenal fatigue
By Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Today’s video is going to be on the truth about coffee. If you want more info on this, check out my recent podcasts on this topic over at beyondwellnessradio.com

We have some of the benefits of coffee up top. We’ll break them down and we’ll make sense of it all. Also, we will talk about some of the negative aspects of coffee or how coffee could be or caffeine can be taken in a way that’s negative. It could hurt your physiology.

Again, some people take caffeine in a way that can exacerbate their thyroid or their adrenals or affect their appetite. Also, we’ll talk about how caffeine can be applied and coffee can be applied in a way that optimizes mental and cognitive performance. So let’s kind of weigh out the pros and cons on each side here.

Coffee and Adenosine

Let’s discuss some of the good things here. We have this inhibitory neurochemical called adenosine. Adenosine is an inhibitory compound, so it helps kind of dampen and relax and decrease energy in your body and how you function and feel. This is kind of like GABA, if you will.

So it’s like, if you have like a calming tea like a chamomile or a flower-based tea, that’s kind of really dampening and causing your body to relax. Typically the exact opposite of why you want to take in coffee. You want to take in coffee so we can actually dampen this adenosine response. This is helpful if we’re looking to get some work done; focus; get some energy going; increase cognitive performance because we’re learning; or we’re taking in new information; or we have to be focused dealing with people all day.

It is very helpful to be able to decrease that adenosine, dampen that. That’s why coffee is better in the morning, in the first half of the day, not taken after the noon time. This is because caffeine has an 8-hour half-life. So we want to work on metabolizing that coffee before it’s time to relax. If you’re drinking coffee too late in the afternoon, it’s going to be hard to shut down.

 

Find out if coffee really is good for you or otherwise from a functional medicine expert by clicking HERE!

 

Benefits of Coffee

The benefits of coffee

Fat Breakdown

One of the benefits is this dampening effect which can help us with energy and focus. Caffeine that’s in coffee, about 150mg to 300mg of caffeine per cup on average increases lipolysis. What is lipolysis? Let’s break it down. Lipo- means fat. -lysis means to cut or to break. So it’s fat breakdown. It’s the fancy word for fat breakdown. Having coffee and/or caffeine before workout can actually be very helpful at breaking down and increasing free fatty acids in your body. This is so you can start burning more fat for fuel, really helpful.

Nutrients

Coffee actually has a lot of B vitamins, a lot of alkaloids, a lot of antioxidants that are very beneficial for your health. People forget that. If you’re doing instant coffee or Maxwell House or Folger’s, or maybe some of these cheap brands, there’s a good chance that that may not be the case.

Antioxidant

What’s an antioxidant? Well, stress oxidation causes your body to basically lose electrons. So if you have this electron right here, which is like a negatively-charged compound and basically oxidative stress comes in and it pulls away your electron. Antioxidants basically take that and prevent this from happening. So antioxidant is anti-loss of an electron. It keeps those electrons paired together versus being broken up. That is kind of how that works. Oxidation is a loss of an electron, so it’s the anti-loss of an electron.

Positive effects on Cognitive Diseases

There are lots of studies on coffee and its effect on decreasing Parkinson’s, also decreasing Alzheimer’s or dementia-like memory symptoms. There are also some studies on coffee not affecting cardiovascular disease, not attributing and not affecting cardiovascular conditions.

My clinical opinion, if you stimulate the body too much because coffee is a stimulant, that activates the sympathetic nervous system. And part of what happens with sympathetic activation is increased heart rate because that’s part of what happens when we’re stimulated. Heart rate goes up to increase blood and increased oxygenation. So that can put extra stress on the heart. If you do have a heart condition, too much caffeine may be an issue for you. We do know that there are some benefits cognitively, which is great, really good stuff.

 

Disadvantages of Coffee

Disadvantages-of-coffee

Adrenal Stimulation

We know coffee does have adrenal stimulation. What does that mean? It’s going to stimulate adrenaline. We have a couple of different words for adrenaline: catecholamines, norepinephrine, epinephrine. Medicine loves to confuse us, so we have lots of different words that mean the same thing.

So in here, we have cortisol and then we have adrenaline. Those are our big things that are happening. Now these can be okay if we’re healthy and we have healthy adrenal function; it may not be a bad thing per se. It’s getting a little cortisol or adrenal push that may help performance. This may help this increased lypolysis, so that may be beneficial.

Sleep issues

Your cortisol rhythm is like this—here’s your AM, here’s your morning. Here’s your PM, in the afternoon. So typically, you wake up and your cortisol goes down like this throughout the day. If you’re adrenally stressed, and you’re doing coffee too much later in the day, it will have a negative effect on your sleep. Let’s say your coffee happens lower in the day; and then what happens relatively-speaking at night, you start going back up and this can be where sleep issues start to happen.

So I typically recommend not consuming any coffee after eleven or twelve o’clock. I always do it with the good high quality fats in there to time release it. And just make sure if your adrenals are messed up or your rhythm is switched, make sure you go and get your adrenals looked at and supported with a functional medicine doctor. You need to get them back in cycle and then cutting coffee out maybe the right thing for you. It may be. So this is the whole cortisol rhythm thing.

Cognitive Performance Issues

This is a big thing. Dave Asprey has kind of made this famous where coffee is known to have a lot of mycotoxins in it; so you want to avoid crappy coffee that can affect cognitive performance. You want to use coffee that makes you feel good and perform better. So the good sources like I mentioned.  The mycotoxins, the pesticides, the chemicals—so you want to avoid all those and choose high-quality coffee. Mix it and blend it in with fat so you have that time release effect that I mentioned earlier.

Jitters, Anxiety, Tachycardia

The CYP1A2 gene is a specific genotype that has evolved into an enzyme. If we don’t have this gene here, we can have a decrease in the enzyme that metabolizes caffeine. So if we have this enzyme that has decreased activity, we have decreased enzyme activity. That means that we are not going to be able to metabolize caffeine because that’s a poor caffeine metabolizer. This may make it hard for us to metabolize caffeine. So what happens is that caffeine sits in our system longer. That half-life of 8 hours is going to be much longer, maybe 10, 12, 15 hours. A half-life is how much it takes to take the caffeine in your system and cut in half. So if it takes 8 hours to cut in half, every 8 hours we continue to cut that caffeine in half. We want to make sure we’re able to metabolize it fast. If we’re not able to, doing any caffeine at all may cause jitters, anxiety, and tachycardia. This feels like the heart is beating out of your chest.

CYP1A2 genotype

So you got to be careful. This CYP1A2 genotype, if we have that we’re going to have decreased enzyme activity for breaking down caffeine. Now should you go and get a genotype test, personally don’t waste your money. Everyone here who has this issue knows it. They’re sensitive to coffee. They have it –there’s caffeine from tea or coffee, they are sensitive. If that’s the case, definitely you want to avoid caffeine. If you have energy issues, though; and you’re using that to help increase the energy and it’s too stimulatory, then you got to go get your adrenals looked at. Have it checked and assessed, and get on a functional medicine program.

Click here for a consultation with a functional medicine doctor!

Recommendation

Recommendations for coffee drinking

Now when I do my coffee, I mix it with butter, grass-fed butter, and MCT oil. If you have autoimmune conditions, you may want to do ghee or not even use coffee. You can maybe do a chai tea instead, if you’re sensitive.

MCT gives you these various ketone precursors that are about 6-8 times higher than in your typical coconut oil where MCT is extracted. And then also using good quality butter, we have butyric acid, these short-chain fatty acids that are really helpful. The goal is it kind of time releases the caffeine.

Essentially, if here’s the caffeine coming down the pipe here, it basically time releases it. Now the caffeine comes in much slower. So instead of having this really big bolus of caffeine, when we have the fat in it, you’re going to see what happens is this. We have what I call the magic carpet caffeine ride experience. We now have the fat and caffeine together having this gentle up and down type of effect. This is much more gradual which is nice. You don’t have the up and the down, and you’re also getting a lot of good fatty acids which can help your appetite which is really good.

Coffee and Hydration

You just got to be really careful because when you do too much caffeine, it also put your body in that sympathetic state which can shut down your appetite. This is especially true if you’re doing a lot of ketones. It’s going to cause to pee out a lot of water, so you got to make sure you’re staying hydrated with good water that has sulfur and minerals in it. Whether it’s a Pellegrino, or a Topo Chico, or a good clean filtered water that you add minerals to, it can also affect your appetite.

Coffee and other nutrients

And remember, just because you have a whole bunch of calories of good healthy fats in that coffee, people call it Bulletproof coffee or butter coffee, your body still needs nutrients. That means you’re still not eating grass-fed meat, Omega 3’s, nutrient-rich antioxidant vegetables or low sugar fruit. You’re not eating those because your appetite’s now gone south. So we got to make sure we’re not affecting our appetite so much where we’re missing the other amino acids and nutrients. Our body still needs those for optimal health. So be careful of too much appetite suppression. Ketones can do that. You just got to be careful of it. And also if your adrenals are fatigued, you may not be able to handle that stimulation.

Decaffeinated Coffee

A couple of things you can do is have decaffeinated coffee which could be helpful. You got to be careful because caffeine is a natural pesticide in coffee. Typically, decaf coffee is sprayed in a much higher rate with various pesticide compounds because the coffee doesn’t have that caffeine; so it can be attacked by mold and other things. If you do get caffeine or decaf coffee, you got to make sure it’s a Swiss water process, not the benzene or methyl chloride process that’s involved in decaffeinated coffee in the past. You want to make sure it’s the water-based Swiss water process that just involves water and no methyl chloride or benzene since benzene is carcinogenic.

Quality Coffee

So we got to make sure, if we’re going to do it, have good clean coffee. Try to make sure it’s small sources, make sure it’s roasted. Central American’s pretty good, higher altitude coffee. Don’t go for the blends that can have a lot of different bad beans. Go for a single source if you can. A couple of my favorite coffees are Bulletproof, Premier, Research Labs makes a great coffee; and there is a handful of good coffees that you can find at different shops. Just try to go for single source. Try to go roasted and try to go for companies that have a good reputation, organic if you can. Some places are organic but they don’t pay for the label. You just got to know which ones are of that organic quality standard. So be careful of the appetite.

What’s the Verdict?

So in the end, is coffee good or bad? It really depends. Choose quality. Prepare it the right way with healthy fats. If you have an autoimmune condition, cut the coffee out and use some very benign sources like a chai tea or even do nothing in the morning for a period of time. If you’re going to use butter, use ghee if you’re autoimmune, then progress to the healthy grass-fed butter. Well, if you have adrenal or thyroid issues, and you feel that caffeine is exacerbating things or your problems or your health issues; or it is abrasive on the gut, pull it out for a period of time. Add it back in. Get your adrenals and your thyroid and your hormonal system working better.

So again, this is the truth about coffee. I hope I instilled some really good info. If you feel like you’re having some issues with coffee or with your energies or your adrenals or anxiety or mood stuff, and coffee could be connected, click on screen or reach out below and make sure you subscribe to get access to more great videos coming your way.

 

Torea Rodriguez – Toxins, infections and autoimmune disease – Podcast #112

Dr. Justin Marchegiani interviews autoimmune specialist, Torea Rodriguez, in this episode where they talk about autoimmune diseases and how these can be exacerbated by toxins and infections in the body. Find out how one thing leads to another and what types of lab tests are vital in helping to get to the root cause of issues. 

Torea Rodriguez Discover what supplements can aid in fighting autoimmune conditions. Learn how important it is to deal with stress or avoid it completely to be healthy along with making diet and lifestyle changes, as well as find out about healing pathways that worked for some people which may just work for you, too.

In this episode, topics include:

13:55   Infections

16:35   Stress

24:42   Biofilms

30:58   Supplements and Herbs

36:26   Toxins

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, there, it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Welcome back to Beyond Wellness Radio. Today we have a functional medicine practitioner. Her name is Torea Rodriguez and she’s right out of Santa Cruz. Right, Torea?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, Santa Cruz is it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Awesome! And you’re an autoimmune specialist, correct?

Torea Rodriguez:  I am. I do functional—err—functional medicine specializing in autoimmune. That’s how I got started. I got sick with autoimmune Hashimoto’s and it’s what I’m most comfortable with and it’s what I understand the most. So that’s what I focus on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  What an epidemic autoimmune conditions are today, huh?

Torea Rodriguez:  Absolutely. I was reading in the Autoimmune Fix, Tom O’Bryan’s new book.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And he was explaining that, you know, most autoimmune diseases, what we know now is that it’s more of an autoimmune spectrum–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  As opposed to a specific disease, and so while there’s—I don’t know—there’s over 135 classified autoimmune diseases, it’s probably even more now and that all of those are just what’s known to us right now. Like there could be so many other ones and so it’s really the spectrum effect that happens, and yeah, it’s really prevalent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, it’s really interesting because with autoimmune conditions. If you really look at what the conventional medical establishment has to offer, I mean, it’s not too much. I mean, they have your immunosuppressive medications, corticosteroids like prednisone. I mean, there’s not really even a diet shift or diet modality when it comes to autoimmune conditions, even though we know the research and the literature’s so, you know, rich with that type of information and also the idea of leaky gut really isn’t even talked about. What’s your take on the conventional medicine approach medicine offers—mainstream medicine for autoimmunity?

Torea Rodriguez:  I think that they are in a very unfortunate situation to be honest. They’re behind in terms of research. There’s not one doctor that I know, you tell me if I’m wrong–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  But there’s not one doctor that I know that has the time in between their 15-minute consults to also go and read the PubMed and the medical literature to stay up on what’s going on, so I think they’re in a very unfortunate situation. And then the other part about the traditional medical establishment is that they’re focused on special areas. So we’ve got the cardiologist for the heart health and we’ve got the endocrinologist for, you know, the endocrine system and the different hormone systems and all of those different things–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  And they’re looking at it from a very specific point of view from that organ if you will, when really autoimmunity needs to be that 30,000-ft view, big picture view because it’s the entire immune system. It’s the entire body that is having a problem. So yeah, I think that it’s just they’re in an unfortunate situation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%. I mean, I see that every day. It’ s like unless you have a clinical framework in which you operate in, I mean, you could skim through articles but it may not mean much to you because where do you plug that clinical piece of information into how you treat patients because typically it’s 3- to 5-minute consult, right? With the pat–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  With the patient. You have a prescription pad. For the most part you’re looking for a diagnostic code that justifies, you know, you to make money off the patient because they are—they are business and then typically that involves a prescription, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Or some type of procedure for the most part and that’s it. I mean, that’s—it’s really about managing that condition and the whole idea about addressing it or fixing a root causal issue really isn’t even there. I mean, it’s—it’s amazing that people can go to physicians where their goal really is just how can we prevent the symptoms from getting worse down the road versus let’s fix this.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It—totally different mindset.

Torea Rodriguez: Yeah. Complete different mindset and that was my exact experience when I was diagnosed with Hashimoto’s back in 2009 and I started working with an endocrinologist because that’s where people go who have thyroid issues. They go to an endocrinologist and start working with them and you know, he prescribed me medication after medication and it’s not working and I can’t get my labs stable and it’s still not working, so we’d switch it or we’d double the dose or, you know, we kinda got to a point where I challenged him because at that the time I needed to pass an aviation medical and I challenged him and I’m like, “Look, I need to pass this exam in a month. We’ve got a month. What do you got for me? Like we gotta do this, otherwise I have to stop flying for a living.” And he just kind of put his hands up and he was kinda like, “Well, you know, the next thing I know to do is to radiate the thyroid and cut out the rest of the tissue.” And I was just like, “Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Brakes on full.” Like that’s not the path that I wanna go down.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez: And that was the real foray for me to start looking into functional medicine and to start looking at alternative solutions because I knew that it—there was something else going on. It wasn’t just the thyroid. I mean, there’s countless people out there with thyroid issues and they feel fine. So what is going on? And I wanted different answers.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s great. This is a great segway into kind of let the listeners know a little bit more about you. And most people, they kinda walk that, most practitioners are physicians—they walk the journey of the wounded healer. Right? They have some type of health–

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ailment themselves, they bump their head against a wall a few times—that wall being conventional medicine, and then was able to find a path that actually worked that—that really was focused on root causal health information.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So why don’t you share your story—I know you mentioned you were a pilot. I think you also have a biochemistry background, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah. Yeah, my undergrad degree is in Biochemistry–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, great.

Torea Rodriguez:  And you know—and I worked in the technology industry so I’ve kinda bounced around and cruised a little, but at the time I was a professional pilot, I wasn’t feeling good. I mean, I knew something was wrong and when it came time to really decide, “Am I gonna go under the knife to try and fix this? Or am I gonna try and find alternative solutions?” I really knew in my heart of hearts that I needed to find an alternative solution.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  By under the knife, you mean getting your thyroid removed, right?

Torea Rodriguez: Yeah. I mean–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  He wanted to give me a radiated thy–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Iodine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And then cut out the rest of the tissue and I did not wanna have surgery to be honest.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So–

Torea Rodriguez: I just did not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. So it sounds like you were diagnosed with Graves’? Is that what happened?

Torea Rodriguez:  No.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Or was it something else?

Torea Rodriguez:  Hashimoto’s.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So this was Hashi—yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  This was Hashimoto’s.  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Torea Rodriguez: And most, for our listeners who don’t know, usually you take out the thyroid when it’s Graves’ which is the opposite, the hyperthyroid situation, and he just didn’t—he didn’t know where else to turn. These were the tools that he had and that’s why–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  I had so much compassion for them. It’s that they—they have the tools that are in their toolbox and they’re not necessarily applicable to the types of diseases that we are seeing right now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It totally makes sense and that makes sense, too, because Hashimoto’s in the early stages can seem like Graves’ because the antibodies are different. They’re not the same kind of antibodies once thyroid stimulating immunoglobulin and TA—TSH receptor antibodies, the one for Hashi’s is TPO and thyroglobulin. So different effect–

Torea Rodriguez:  Correct.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But in the early—in the early inflammation response, thyroid hormone spills out and can create that hyper kinda symptoms, so that makes sense.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I started searching for anybody that knew anything about thyroid and natural healing and I had stumbled across Chris Kresser’s writings–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm, yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And this was back early in the day when he was just writing about stuff and he said something that really clicked with me–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Which was that we’re dealing with autoimmunity and we’re dealing with a disease of the immune system.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Not a disease of the thyroid, not a disease of–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  The myelin sheath of your nerves. It’s a disease of the immune system and that we need to really focus on the immune system itself, and that just lit a lightbulb. It was an epiphany moment. It’s like, “Of course! That makes total sense.” So let’s go down that path. So I pretty much didn’t know where he was, didn’t care, was gonna get on any plane to go see him, begged myself into his clinic and he took me on as a client, and that’s when I really started to understand the multiple layers that had come into play to cause me to get sick and the work that I needed to do to start healing. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool. So with your working with Chris, I mean, he’s kind of a—a Paleo template guy. I’m a big fan of a Paleo template, right? Where we kinda can adjust the macronutrients and—and dial things in according to what works best for you, the patient. Just curious, if you could lay out just you and your experience as the patient, what worked best for you. What are those top 3 things that really were game changers in your case?

Torea Rodriguez:  I think the very first game changer was taking a different perspective on my diet. I had always felt that I was healthy and that I was eating very healthfully and to stay healthy on the road I was keeping to a vegetarian diet and with a lot of healthy whole grains, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Right? And so taking a different perspective and really taking a look at what it was that I was eating and what more importantly what I was missing in the diet. There were a lot of nutrients in my diet that were missing from that and so switching to a whole food Paleo type template was exactly what my body needed at the time and I would say that that in itself gave me a huge boost and huge stair step of healing right away.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So you were eating a lot of grains back then or were you eating any meat as well?

Torea Rodriguez:  I was not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  I was trying to stay healthy on the road.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  So I was staying vegetarian because of course, we were eating out all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Torea Rodriguez:  So yeah, so I was just like, “Oh, I’ll just stay vegetarian. That’ll keep me healthy.” And then you know, in hindsight, looking back the other time I experimented with being vegetarian was in college and I got very, very sick in college. And I know now–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  That for me and my body type, I—I need to include animal proteins in there. That’s the only way I feel really great. So yeah, so I would say food was the other thing and then rest. Not really rest—how should I say this? I had to take a very serious look at my Type A hyper-overachiever lifestyle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, right.

Torea Rodriguez:  And that was really, really hard to do as a pilot. You are used to achieving every 6 months and passing check rides and switching to the next airplane and all of those things, and that was something that was really driving my nervous system into sympathetic fight or flight all the time.  And I had pretty much activated it all the time and I really had to take a serious look at that. So that was one of the other things that was really, really key in healing but expressly difficult to adjust to.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So you sound like you had some adrenal dysfunction there, too?

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah. They were–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Pretty much—the way Chris put it—and I don’t know if he was trying to scare me or not, but he basically said that you are one step away from Addison’s disease. You need to do something different.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And were those initial tests that you ran for adrenals, were those on—on the BioHealth 201 adrenal panel?

Torea Rodriguez:  Correct.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, cool.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Do you remember what your total–

Torea Rodriguez:  That was my first panel.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cortisol was?

Torea Rodriguez:  I think it was like 12.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow, that’s so low!

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about your DHEA?

Torea Rodriguez:  I don’t even remember. I’d have to go take a look. But yeah, I mean, it was pretty much tapped out. I mean, I was—I was tapped out. This was—I was sleeping 14 hours a night and feeling like I was–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  Hit by a Mack truck the next morning. Like I was not feeling rested ever.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And so recapping, you were eating a vegetarian diet. So I typically hear that. I think low protein, I think ex—probably excessive carbohydrate, probably lots of anti-nutrients.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, it was all carbohydrate. Because in addition to flying–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Torea Rodriguez:  The other thing that I loved to do was long distance cycling.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Running–oh yeah, there you go. So that your–

Torea Rodriguez: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You’re carb-loading, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Pretty much sugar all day long, every day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about fat consumption? Were you doing pretty low fat consumption? Were you doing a lot of nuts back then?

Torea Rodriguez:  Probably.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, nuts and you know, a little bit of olive oil here and there–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  But butter wasn’t in the profile at all. You know, so I was very fatphobic at that point.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So we had blood sugar issues, we had nutrient density issues, you probably had a lot of anti-nutrient issues, adrenal dysfunction–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then autoimmunity which probably was exacerbated by all of the—the grains that you were consuming, too.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  Most definitely, and there was pretty extreme iron anemia–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, wow.

Torea Rodriguez: That we discovered and which explained a lot of the issues that I was having. I was getting hypoxic at very low altitudes at work and hypoxy is the term for when you are lacking oxygen at altitude and usually you’ll feel hypoxic anywhere between 8,000 and 12,000 feet. Everybody’s a little bit different.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  But I was feeling very hypoxic at 5,000.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  And the cabins are pressurized at 8,000 so I was even more fatigued at the end of my shift because I was constantly “at altitude” all day long and getting really sick from it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And so you were an airline–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Pilot where you like flying major airlines or–

Torea Rodriguez:  No, I flew charter and–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Charter.

Torea Rodriguez:  Corporate aviation. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it. Now I’ve heard that—I’m not sure if this is true—but I’ve heard that pilots aren’t able to fly while consuming aspartame, is that true?

Torea Rodriguez:  I would have to double check what the regulations are with the FAA–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  But at the time when I was flying–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez: Aspartame was fine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It was fine. Okay, I wondered if that’s something new.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, it wasn’t a regulated substance, but I’d have to check. That’s curious.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, alright, very cool.  And then let’s dive in. There’s one piece of your autoimmune puzzle that I think may have been an issue but you didn’t allude to it yet. You didn’t mention anything about infections. Were infections a piece of the puzzle for you getting your thyroid and your autoimmune situation under control?

Torea Rodriguez:  They were definitely a piece of the puzzle but they came later.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ahh.

Torea Rodriguez:  Like we really started with diet, lifestyle stuff first.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Started focusing on healing the gut a little bit–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  And then also the adrenals, like I was just–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  So tapped out, right? Getting some–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Totally.

Torea Rodriguez:  Support there, but later on we started to find the GI pathogens for sure and I tested positive for H. pylori and then later on tested positive for a—another one that I can’t even remember the name of it and you know, as we started to treat those and heal those, you know, we’ve kinda talked about lingering symptoms like what’s left, what else is going on?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Torea Rodriguez: You know, and—and sure enough we found Giardia but it took–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow!

Torea Rodriguez:  A number of tests and a number of passes at that for it to finally reveal itself and that Giardia had gotten—I’ve had it for so long that it had left the intestinal tract and actually had gone into the gallbladder.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And so I had all these crazy gallbladder attacks that I couldn’t explain and ultrasounds to make sure it’s not stones, like it was kind of a little bit of a crazy path but we finally found the Giardia and treated myself for Giardia and that was another huge stair step is to finally get rid of that pathogen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So 3 major parasitic infections—H. pylori, something in between was a Blasto? Blastocystis hominis or Crypto?

Torea Rodriguez:  No, it wasn’t Blasto. My husband’s had Blasto. It was Crypto.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Crypto. Okay.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow. That’s—that is nasty. Yeah, that’s a Blasty-Cryp—I call that the Three Amigos by the way.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, definitely felt like the Three Amigos were having a party, that’s for sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right? Now when you went to go attack the Giardia, did you have to do a gallbladder flush to get the gall—to get the Giardia flushed out?

Torea Rodriguez:  I didn’t. Actually–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Torea Rodriguez:  I was pretty lucky with the anti–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez: Pathogens that we used.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Torea Rodriguez:  Actually it turned out to be fine. But yeah–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it. So we have adrenal issues and that—you know, in your situation, it’s kinda unique in how it unfolds and what stressors happen in your life but how things break down is pretty consistent, right? There’s some level of–

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Dietary stress and that’s unique for person, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Whether it’s vegetarian side, whether it’s the standard American diet and lots of conventional meat and grains. You have the adrenal stressors, right? You have imbalanced amount of macronutrients, so I call that blood sugar stressors. You have infections and then you had the autoimmune—the whole immune system all revved up–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because of everything else, because all of the—the things I already mentioned.  I see that

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah and–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I see that with most patients.

Torea Rodriguez:  There’s—there’s another thing in there that kinda added to the whole perfect storm which is what I now call acute stress events.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  There was a period of time between 2008 and 2009 when I was being diagnosed where I had lost a parent suddenly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  I had gotten into a cycling accident and pretty severe physical injuries and I had an emergency at altitude and was the only pilot on board to deal with that emergency, so there was a huge amount adrenalin that got pumped out that day when I was dealing with that—that actual emergency, and those 3 things all happened within months of each other.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Torea Rodriguez: And that pretty much a perfect storm on the stress side of things to completely cause additional leaky gut and cause additional food sensitivities and everything else that just kinda added to the whole picture.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, you really—you really hit a point there that I wanna emphasize. You talked about the leaky gut and the food sensitivities and I think a lot of people at home, they—they hear stress but they don’t really think about how stress really impacts our digestion or impacts our gut lining.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because the biggest thing that really revs up this autoimmune cycle is stress and what it does to the gut lining and then what that does to undigested food particles and then what that does to the immune system as they slip through the tight junctions to get into the bloodstream.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, absolutely. And you know people hear stress, stress, stress, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez: I get it, but what they don’t understand is that in the lab and I think this was Dr. Fasano’s work–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Is that in the lab one of the ways that they would introduce leaky gut is hitting these poor rats over the head and causing head trauma.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And that’s a physical injury that you know, resulted in leaky gut. So when we have a lot of stress whether it’s physical injury or not, that will cause leaky gut.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And is that mechanism through the head trauma is after decreased activation of the—the vagal nerve?

Torea Rodriguez: That’s my guess.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, that’s what I think, too.

Torea Rodriguez:  That is definitely my guess. Yeah, vagal nerve is so huge in recovery and, you know, stimulating the parasympathetic side of the immune system and nervous system.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I was reading an interesting study just last week on petting animals and it stimulating the vagal nerve.

Torea Rodriguez:  Really? I definitely need a dog again.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So I—you think—I know. I practice next to my dog, Butter, all day so I, you know, pet her. I’m like, “Yeah, I’m getting my vagus nerve going.” You know, I’m—I’m practicing what I preach here.

Torea Rodriguez:  Excellent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So nice little fun fact there.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, I look for all sorts of different ways to simulate vagus nerve when trying to heal autoimmunity because so many of us get kinda stuck in the cycle of the sympathetic side of the nervous system and it’s very hard to start to retrain the body to start activating the parasympathetic side. So I’m always looking for tips like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, that’s good. And now because you’ve had this history you’ve been able to effectively treat it, which is great, what are you seeing in your patients? Are you seeing similar type of events kind of cascading or what kind of infections are you seeing, too?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, so lots of GI pathogens.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  I’ve seen the gamut of them. I’m also seeing patients who are attributing some of their getting sick like how I had that perfect storm of stress events to receiving tetanus vac—vaccination—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  Vaccines, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  Vaccinations.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  Or you know, some other kind of trauma.  Usually it’s a trauma that can start the whole ball of wax to unravel, and so I see that quite a bit, so I pretty much apply the same technique is to let’s get an understanding of what’s going on. Let’s look for some of those co-infections and start dealing with those, so that I pretty much equate it to the immune system as pretty much over—overloaded at this point. It can’t really deal with these things effectively. So we have to help it to get rid of those things so it can become stronger to be able to keep this things at bay. So it’s, yeah–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I totally see that as well, where like the immune system is compromised. It can’t quite get rid of the infection on its own and it needs just a little bit more help with whether a specific protocol that you create to help kind of knock that infection out, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup, absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then you went—you said something about five minutes ago. I wanna kinda come back to it because I think, just through the lens of the patient right now, from a patient talking to you. The biggest thing I see patients that have chronic health issues is when they have multiple infections layered up and they—they get their stool test back or their infectious panel back and they find there is one or two infections. We treat those infections. They come back negative, but a new one comes back. And that’s a really frustrating thing that I let my patients know that there is probably a 20% chance that may happen. And we call it you know, I refer to it as crypt hyperplasia where the infection burrows deeper into the gut lining and it makes its way out as we kinda clean through all the crud if you will. What’s your take on it? How do you explain that or educate your patients about that?

Torea Rodriguez: There’s a couple different analogies that I use for that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  One is that, you know, we are basically going after the bad guys that we see in the beginning of the forest–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  But not the ones that are deeper in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Deeper in, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  And so you have to kinda keep retesting for that and then of course, I’ll get a little technical with them and talk to them about biofilms and how biofilms –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Can get you know, resistant to things like oil of oregano and you know, that kind of thing, so you kind of have–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  To play around with some of these agents that we use to get rid of the stuff to actually get after it, and then you know, the other part, too, is that if—if they’ve done a lot of antibiotics, traditional antibiotics, or they’ve done a lot of use of these herbal antibiotics, often times what doesn’t come into play is the re-population of the gut and so basically we leave this like five-star resort open with neon signs that says, “Bad guys, move in here.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  And then they’re easy to pick up on something else. So sometimes they pick up something else–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Through their travels or whatever but sometimes it’s just really just uncovering it and exploring deeper in that forest.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And this is helpful because I think a lot of people that expect you know, let’s say they have a couple of infections, they expect that once those infections are gone that they’re gonna feel 100% better. And in your situation what percent better were you after those two infections, the H. pylori and the Crypto?

Torea Rodriguez:  At that point, you know we had done a lot of the diet-lifestyle stuff–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  So I would say 60% but getting rid of those only got me about another 10%.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then so it was the last one?

Torea Rodriguez:  Then it wasn’t until–yeah, it wasn’t until we found the—the Giardia–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And start treating the Giardia that things really started to fall into place and then looking at my final lingering symptoms, those are all Epstein-Barr related.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And so now that’s my focus personally and like I still work on the stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  I’ve been working on this since 2009, you know, so it’s—some of my clients are like, “When does it ever stop?” And it could stop now but I refuse to accept mediocrity and you know, I wanna feel good all the time so I will always pursue it, but some people choose to stop when they feel 80-90% better.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right and I guess it depends, right? Because everyone, you know, when do you stop eating healthy? When do you stop exercising? When do you stop going—getting good sleep, right? It just—people, it’s very easy to get addicted to feeling great and then the potential of “Can I feel 5% better this year? What do you think? Is it possible?”

Torea Rodriguez:  Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So it can gets exciting, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  It totally gets exciting and you know, the thing is that that things will change. You’ll start to feel better and then you’ll decide that you wanna go travel to Nicaragua and you get a really nasty bout–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Of food poisoning. Well, guess what?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  You probably just picked up something that you should test for and see if it’s still hanging out in your gut after you get back. So, I mean, we pick up stuff like this all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And what are you doing right now for biofilms? You brought that up earlier with antibiotic resistance, people taking in the past. What are you doing for that with your patients?

Torea Rodriguez:  Biofilms, I mean, you can use several different agents–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  I like to use interface. There’s a couple other things–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  That I’ve used in the past. Not BiotaGen, that is a prebiotic powder.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Biotic, yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  It’s the Bio-Botanical Industries, do you know which one I’m talking about?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, there’s a couple out there–

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, shoot.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The big ones that I know for my biofilms are—are ginger–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Silver and cat’s claw or Samento. Those are my–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  My favorites to use for the biofilms. Ginger tea is like mandatory for all patients to sip on, you know, for the first few weeks because ginger—there’s a lot of studies on it on helping biofilm reduction.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, that’s fantastic! Yeah. Biocidin–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, Biocidin.

Torea Rodriguez:  It’s the other one that I’ve used.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup. And that seems to do a really good job with people who have been on the Interface for too long and then all of a sudden you’ve got something that’s resistant to that—but ginger is new for me. That’s really fascinating. I’d love to see those papers.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. I mean, you just go ginger and biofilms. There is just dozens of them.

Torea Rodriguez:  Excellent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  There—there was one cool paper where it showed like a Petri dish of like all this resistant bacteria or biofilms, and then like they introduced a small bit of ginger to it and it was like gone. So a big fan of juicing–

Torea Rodriguez:  Fantastic.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I’m a big fan of juicing it though, like fresh juiced ginger, like just kinda throw it in your Vitamix or Magic Bullet if you don’t like the pulp–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Which I don’t like the pulp. I strain it through a French press, and–

Torea Rodriguez:  Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  There you go. Add a teaspoon of honey especially if you don’t have any fungal issues, you could do it. A quarter of a lime and you’re good to go, and it really helps reduce those biofilms.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, ginger is amazing stuff because not only do you have biofilm disruptor, but you’ve got some really great probiotics that are on the ginger root itself.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  So yeah, pretty amazing stuff. I like it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Also anti-inflammatory and anticoagulants. So keeps the crud that gets you know–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Stuck or sludgy moving along, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup. Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cool. So with the patient’s right now, would you say the most common autoimmune condition you’re seeing is Hashimoto’s or thyroid autoimmune disease?

Torea Rodriguez:  You know, honestly I don’t see a lot of Hashimoto’s clients–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  I just see autoimmune diseases.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  In general.

Torea Rodriguez:  They’re all over the place. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  What—what are the big five for you?

Torea Rodriguez:  Rheumatoid arthritis.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  Hashimoto’s is definitely in there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  But then I’ve gotten some really strange ones that, you know, that are skin-related.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup, scleroderma or–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, that sclerodermas and those kinds of things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Psoriasis.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup, psoriasis for sure. Those are the big majors really.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  I don’t see a lot of people with MS and I don’t see a lot of people with Crohn’s. I thought I would. I had one client with Crohn’s, but that was it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Are you seeing a lot of multi-glandular autoimmune syndromes like more than one autoimmune condition with the same patient?

Torea Rodriguez:  Almost everybody–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  I’ve known that’s been diagnosed with our immune has been diagnosed with two if not more.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  I—I’ve two that I know about. I’ve had psoriasis in the past–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  That’s been healed and I know that’s autoimmune. It was never diagnosed by a medical professional but I also have Raynaud’s in the hands–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  That’s fun. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I see that exact same pattern. Raynaud’s, Hashi’s, and some type of either eczema or psoriatic skin condition is like super common.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, yeah, very common for them to go together.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And for listeners, Raynaud’s is just a condition where you get these vasospasms in the—typically in the extremity tips that can cut off blood flow in circulation and create that cold kind of feeling.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, it’s pretty freaky when you look at your hands and your entire fingers are white.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  From the base of the fingers to the tips. The first day that happened to me I kinda freaked out. I was on the bike and couldn’t figure out how to get the blood flowing in the fingers again. It was kind of scary.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I totally hear you. And then talk about the Epstein-Barr in the—I wanna say mono or chronic fatigue that tends to happen from that. How are you diagnosing? What are you looking on lab work to pick up EBV?

Torea Rodriguez:  So I’m a big proponent of the Immunoscience’s panel. They’ve got a viral panel and if you want we can link to it in the show notes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  But they’ve got a really great comprehensive viral panel that you can run or you can ask your doctor to run the markers for you if you want, which will take a look at whether or not you’ve got past exposure or current exposure. Most people who are dealing with chronic EBV have had a past exposure, and my theory is that our immune system is just not as strong as keeping it at bay as somebody else. I mean EBV is so common that we think that nearly 95 to 98% of the population has been—been exposed. It’s just most of them can keep it at bay. So a lot of those types of symptoms are fatigue, feeling like you’re getting the flu but never really coming down with the flu, light sensitivity in the eyes, tinnitus in the ears, pain in the lymph nodes underneath the ears, those kinds of things, maybe a mild fever but hardly ever fever associated with it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, that is super common and the three major things I looked that—I just pulled up the Immunoscience panel and that’s exactly what I run, Viral Capsid Antigen, Nuclear Antigen and Early Antigen.

Torea Rodriguez:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  IgM and IgGs. Any IgM, that’s a sign of more of an acute or—potential active or reactive infection. And any IgG for the Early Antigen–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Is a sign of a potential reactivation. Is that kind of what you go by, too?

Torea Rodriguez:  Exactly. Yeah and you know, when I was first starting to look at this at myself I did this with my naturopathic doctor and we ran the whole lab, and while I didn’t have any IgM for active–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Infection, I have had in her opinion the highest titer she has ever seen for IgGs so I—I got the Gold Star award for that. So it definitely tells me that that’s something that my body has been dealing with for a very long time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely and what are you doing right now from a supplement or herbal standpoint with Epstein-Barr?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, so I am making sure that I stay as far away from sugar as I–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Possibly can because sugar will break down the L-lysine in the body and L-lysine–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Is the amino acid that we need to keep viruses at bay–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  At the most, which ironically now that I know that information is why after I eat a bunch of sugar I feel like crap for three days afterwards.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Torea Rodriguez:  And I take L-lysine as a supplement. I’ve also been experimenting on myself doing an n=1 experiment with using supplemental BHT.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And some people don’t like that approach. Some people love that approach. And that seems to be helping with the constant symptoms that I was having, and not as often anymore. Whether or not it is the BHT or the L-lysine, I don’t know because I’m testing two variables are once. But those are the two things that I’ve been doing and then just making sure that I don’t have a lot of stress, because stress will set me back faster than anything,

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love how foundational things are right at the forefront. That’s I think so important. I think a lot of people miss that.

Torea Rodrigue:  I think—I think we want to throw them in the back corner to be honest –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Right? It’s like we want the easy button sometimes, and sometimes the easy button is just making sure that you’re consistent with the foundations.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I see so many people that come in or have seen me before other doctors and they come in, we have a whole bunch of infections, and the doctors they previously were with just threw a whole bunch of things at them–

Torea Rodriguez:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Didn’t really get lifestyle changes dialed in. Didn’t really get the diet. Didn’t really get blood sugar. Didn’t really get the adrenals or any thyroid or hormone stuff. And they just went after the infections right away and they just shut down.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I think echoing on what you said the lifestyle piece and the diet piece, and even the hormonal—hormone piece before that is so important as a foundation so you can go after these infections and not create a healing crisis.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, absolutely. Like I see this quite often. Of course, everybody wants to end the pain, like I get it. I totally get it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  And you know, we want those results right away but I have seen clients do the same approach with other practitioners and you know, they get thrown a whole bunch of antimicrobials for example. Yeah, that practitioner didn’t look at the liver function and didn’t realize that there are liver wasn’t ready to process all those toxins that are created when we go after the microbes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And yeah, and they completely shut down so that’s why I do a bunch of labs upfront so that I can see like what’s the status of the liver, what’s the status of the neurotransmitters, like let’s look everywhere and then figure out a strategy, and it does take time for sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you mentioned earlier, the butylated hydroxytoluene, the BHT.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Can you talk more about that?

Torea Rodriguez:  So yeah, so butylated hydroxytoluene which is a mouthful–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  BHT—that is the same BHT that used to be in breakfast cereal when you and I were young.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, is that–

Torea Rodriguez:  Like it’s the same stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, it’s the preservatives. So there are–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It keeps it crunchy when it sits in the milk for a while, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  That’s right. Totally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes, I noticed.

Torea Rodriguez:  Capt N Crunch, in fact.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Torea Rodriguez:  So it—there’s research out there that says that it’s a neurotoxin. There’s research out there that says it’s not a neurotoxin. And as you know when you read PubMed research you are always gonna find both sides of the picture.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  But what they have found is that with lipid encapsulated viruses, so the herpes style-type viruses of which EBV is one. It’s actually herpes simplex virus IV. That it has a really good ability to disrupt that lipid bilayer of the viral body and help keep the actual attack of that virus down. And so you know, there—there’s a lot of research out there. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence out there that it works which is why I decided to do an n=1 experiment on myself and it seems to be definitely helping; whether or not I wanna do it long term, I’m not certain yet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I will.

Torea Rodriguez:  If I wanna do it long term. But that’s the only—the only negative of it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I will put a link to the show notes. So if anyone that wants to get more intel on that they will have that at their fingertips. That’s great.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah. I’ll also send you a link to include in the show notes. There is a PDF or an eBook out there called the—the BHT book I think is what it’s called, and it was written by a biochemist by the name of Stephen Faulks and he put together a bunch of the research on its effect on lipid encapsulated viruses.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know Steve. He wrote the book on smart drugs, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, okay.

Torea Rodriguez:  He is also known for a—what is it? Aspartame, no, not aspartame. Araspid—araspertam?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh yes. Yeah, the—the various racetams. Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes, those. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup. Big—yeah, he’s a big fan of those. Very cool, awesome.

Torea Rodriguez:  Brilliant biochemist though and he really knows his stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I met Steve over at the—I think it’s Smart Life forum down in Silicon Valley over at Palo Alto.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, he’s a big guy over there. He gives a lot of informative talks.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup, yup, really nice guy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool. Now you’ve kind of alluded to something earlier. I’m gonna go back to it.

Torea Rodriguez:  Great.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  My—my brain thinks. It kinda scatters a little bit, but I—it’ll all make sense at the end here. You talked about toxins and being able to check liver functions. So are we talking about just like in an ALT, AST liver enzymes on a blood test, or were you talking about organic acid testing for the liver?

Torea Rodriguez:  I use both.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  I wanted to take a look at both. So when I take on a client we do a full blood chemistry workup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And an organic acids, and a look at both. I wanna make sure that both phase 1 and phase 2 processes are functioning properly. If they’re not, then I probably won’t go after microbials or pathogens or environmental toxins right away because we want to make sure that the body has a—an appropriate way of clearing this stuff. We don’t want to just add a whole bunch of extra burden to the liver if we can help it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And what you’re cut off for the ALT and AST on your lab test?

Torea Rodriguez:  Umm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Less than 20?

Torea Rodriguez:  Pretty much, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, I wanna make sure that, you know, it’s—it’s not too high. We want to make sure that it’s working efficiently. So–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:   That’s exactly what I do. Now let’s pivot here. You mentioned in our pre-interview, you talked all about the organic acids. You talked about, and I love the organic acid test, I know there’s—I do the Genova testing in my office. I know you mentioned you do the—the GPL, the Great Plains Lab testing–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And he also mentioned about their tox screen, which I’ve—doing more and more frequently. I’m actually gonna be doing a panel of myself as well as the one for the Roundup, the—the glyphosate, too.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So—so let’s pivot there. Talk to me more about the organics and how you’re using it with your patients and then kinda stack on how you’re interchangeably using the toxic screen, too.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, sure. So organic acids, I was taught by another practitioner how to interpret organic acids, and I’ve—I’ve used the Genova as well as the Great Plains and–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  The thing that I love about the organic acids is we’re looking at metabolites of various different biochemical processes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  And when there’s a problem with one chemical changing form to another chemical in that cycle–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  It will kinda spill over, just like if we had dammed up a reservoir; it kind of spills over and it gets into the urine and this is how we can see where there are problems in those functions in the body. And I think I love it so much because it’s one, simple collection for the client–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And there are so many markers that look at so many different areas, so we can see bacterial overgrowth in the body pretty easily. It’s super, super sensitive for yeast. Whereas in any kind of stool test, like if you find yeast then you know you’ve got a raging yeast infection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah. So I like that it’s super sensitive for yeast. You can look at neurotransmitter balance. You can look at–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  You can look at methylation, nutritional deficiencies, like there is so much information in the organic acids that–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mitochondria.

Torea Rodriguez:  It’s just really—yeah. Mitochondrial function which is huge–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  For people without immunity like of course, you’re feeling fatigued because your mitochondria–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Huge.

Torea Rodriguez:  Are not generating energy the way that they should and they are the energy powerhouses of the cell. So you know, knowing that allows me to be able to fine tune somebody’s wellness plan so that they can start feeling better sooner in looking at those kinds of things. So I love the organic acids for that reason.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  What major areas of the organic acid test are you seeing out of balance in your patients right now?

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, gosh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Just myself, I see them all–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But there are certain ones I see more frequently. I’m just curious just kind of like your intuitive guess.

Torea Rodriguez:  In the—yeah, in the last year there’s been a lot–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oxalate and yeast issues.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  I’ve seen not so much neurotransmitter imbalance but definitely mitochondrial malfunction.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Torea Rodriguez: And then the rest is the bacterial overgrowth.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah is really nice because it gives you that extra net to pick up gut issues outside of what you may miss on a stool test.

Torea Rodriguez:  Exactly, which is, you know, we were talking about that forest, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  And trying to find the bad guys in the forest, this gives us another way to do that with a different method which makes it a much better sweep of that forest.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Totally. And what about the tox screen? What kind of toxins are you seeing? How much Roundup, how much benzene, toluene? Whatever else you’re seeing there–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, I really like it. I mean, there’s 172 markers on the—the labs. So it’s–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Unreal.

Torea Rodriguez:  It’s pretty comprehensive but, you know, that is allowing us to not only look at what somebody is biologically infected with like a co-infection but the environmental toxins from everywhere. So if you are getting exposed to lots of gasoline or gasoline exhaust fumes for example, maybe your work is—maybe you’re the person that holds the construction sign on the highway, you know, and you’re breathing in fumes all day long, or you’re a dental hygienist in Europe being put in the face of chemicals all day long, like we get to see those things but more importantly we are seeing pesticides that are used either in the yard or in the garden. We’re seeing the chemicals that are used for cleaning in the house or you know, the insecticides, right? In the house and cosmetics. I have to say it–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Cosmetics and you know, self-care products, the shampoos, and the soaps, and all of that stuff that we put our skin shows up in this test. So I really love it because it—this is what hammers down the lifestyle piece of it, right? Making those changes to make sure that you’re not getting exposed to plastics for example.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and what are the top three toxins you’re seeing come back on that screening?

Torea Rodriguez:  Honestly, they’re all over the map. I’ve just started running it–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And it seems to be a little bit different for everybody.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  So I haven’t seen something that’s very common. Now the glyphosate that you had mentioned–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes. The Roundup. Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, so that’s pretty much coming back on almost everybody.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know. It’s scary. It really is scary.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup. And that one, you know, not only is it Roundup but that’s—you know, people hear about GMO versus organic food—GMO, 9 times out of 10 is a plant that has been modified to be able to be a Roundup-ready or Roundup resistant.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.

Torea Rodriguez:  Right. So they’re spraying it, like this is the whole deal with GMOs, is like there is spraying it with pesticides, folks, and you’re eating it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Tons.

Torea Rodriguez:  Like that’s what’s happening. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Like billions of pounds a year. I just got my—my whole lawn in my yard here in Austin replaced. We put down sod, and before they were saying, “Oh, typically the protocol is you know, we’re going to throw down a whole bunch of Roundup.” I said, “Nope. You’re just gonna—you’re gonna, you know, go and scalp it. You know use the bulldozer, whatever, do what you gonna do. No Roundup.” They say, “Oh, everyone does it. It’s innocuous. You know, turns into a sod, goes away.” But I’m seeing exactly what you’re seeing, lots of glyphosate or Roundup is found in people’s urine. So it’s obviously getting extracted or it’s coming out but the question is, I mean, “I’m not eating or—you know, pesticides and things like that. How are we getting exposed to it?” So it’s—it’s gotta be ubiquitous in the environment.

Torea Rodriguez:  It is pretty ubiquitous and I’ve talked to the folks at Great Plains and they’re seeing it in almost 100% of samples.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Scary.

Torea Rodriguez:  I mean, it’s—it is really scary.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  And thank you for putting in sod and not turf.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes. You got it.

Torea Rodriguez:  Thank you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You got it.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Try to be–

Torea Rodriguez:  Because I can only imagine the amount of plastic chemicals that I’m gonna find in somebody’s tox screen, then they tell me that they have a turf lawn.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know and I called up the people over down here at—at Chem-free Lawns in Austin and I was talking to them about chemical-free fertilizers. They use a lot of probiotics or they’ll use–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Natural herbs. They’ll even use various Helminths or worms to kill various infections.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And—and we were chatting about that for a bit and they were talking to me about the demand to switch away from these more carcinogenic conventional pesticides to these more natural ones, how it’s just the demand is out of this world, and I think people are catching on, you know, if you follow The Truth About Cancer series that was out again this last month, a lot of these chemicals are associated with various lymphomas and leukemias and cancers that are carcinogenic and hormone disruptors. So I think it’s great that people are—by and large are starting to get exposed to this information.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it—you know, it’s one of those things that can—can contribute to autoimmunity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Huge.

Torea Rodriguez:  Because, yeah, it’s huge. So super important.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, was there anything you wanna just kind of leave us with here? I’m gonna go onto my last question that I ask every guest, but is there anything else you wanted to share with the listeners that you find just really impactful or you’re just really passionate about right now that you wanna share?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that I found in my practice that has been extremely powerful is not only is it diet, lifestyle factors, looking at the functional medicine piece of it, but it’s also really taking a look at your life and what’s important, and sorting through what matters the most, and once you identify what matters the most, like get rid of everything else that doesn’t because it’s just added stress, and we don’t need it, right? So really kinda coming—becoming clear with that, and I think a lot of times people feel like they are expected to have this career, do the—be the perfect wife, you know, all of those things and it’s—it’s really fascinating to determine that sometimes I end up counselling people through career changes–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And relationship changes like those are really key parts of health so don’t ignore the emotional side either. That’s my point.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think that’s really important. Where can our listeners find out more about you?

Torea Rodriguez:  So they can go to my website which is ToreaRodriguez.com. We’ll include that in the show notes because that’s a handful to spell out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s only one R. T-O-R-E-A Rodriguez.com. We’ll put the link–

Torea Rodriguez:  Correct.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  For it below. Anywhere else? Do you have a YouTube channel? Do you have a podcast? Do you have anything else going on?

Torea Rodriguez:  If they subscribe to my newsletter and blog, I do a video blog every week, so they’ll be able to get that in the newsletter, and then the other thing that I’m working on right now is the five-week course that’s gonna launch in January. That’s an environmental toxin course, so it’s five weeks to help clean out the home and the body without getting overwhelmed, and that’s gonna include that environmental tox screen that we talked about.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. I’m doing that more and more–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I got one on my test, sitting on my desk here that I gotta get done soon on myself, so I’m excited.

Torea Rodriguez:  Excellent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So last question. If you are stuck on a desert island and you only could bring one supplement with you, what would it be?

Torea Rodriguez:  Supplement.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It could be like an herb. It could be like coconut oil. It could be like anything. Just supplement or compound or tincture or whatever you want.

Torea Rodriguez:  Well, the first thing that came to mind is what I’m gonna go with. I’m gonna say an avocado tree.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  An avocado tree, there you go.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, so essential fatty acids essentially.

Torea Rodriguez:  Essential fatty acids, lots of fiber, it’s–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  You know, it’s awesome. So I love avocado. That would definitely be it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it. Getting our monosaccharide fats going. Very cool.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And also fun fact about an avocado. Avocados have more potassium than bananas. Everyone thinks, “Oh, you know, potassium. Leg cramps, right? Grab a banana.”  Well, actually avocados have more and less sugar.

Torea Rodriguez:  Avocados, awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool. Awesome, Torea. Great chatting with you and well, look forward to have you back on the show soon.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, thank you so much. Super fun.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Thanks.  Take care.

References:
http://www.immunoscienceslab.com/Viral/Viral%20Comp%20Panel.pdf
http://www.torearodriguez.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butylated_hydroxytoluene#Applications
http://www.growyouthful.com/remedy/BHT-butylated-hydroxytoluene.php
http://www.torearodriguez.com/
Detox course: torea.co/WholeLifeDetox
December’s Webinar on the course (06 Dec): torea.co/WLD-DEC6
BHT Book: http://www.projectwellbeing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/BHTbook-StevenWmFowkes-100903.pdf

Estrogen dominance – Podcast #110

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand talk about hormones, their importance and their functions, as well as the symptoms of hormonal imbalance and what causes estrogen dominance. Understanding hormones doesn’t have to be complicated and if you listen to this podcast, you’ll get a clearer picture of what hormones really are and particularly for women. 

estrogen dominance - hormonal imbalanceFind out having balanced hormones is the key to feeling good and having energy. Learn how to avoid any imbalance and how to fix these issues to help you overcome stress. Discover what you can do and gain indispensable knowledge about dealing with hormones especially for females so you can perform at your best and be in optimal function.

In this episode, topics include:

00:42   Hormones

04:30   Symptoms of estrogen dominance

08:13   Causes of estrogen dominance

17:22   Phytoestrogens, stress allocation and avoidance

25:20   Nutrients

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Evan Brand:  Dr. J! How’s it going?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Evan, it’s doing great, man! How you doin’?

Evan Brand:  Pretty—pretty well. I’m glad we got this internet thing straightened out. Let’s hit this estrogen dominance topic. People have been asking via email, social media. Clients of ours have been asking about hormones and trying to understand them. There’s so many things in the environment that impact them. Your lifestyle, your diet can impact those and so you and I wanted to outline all this together and talk about what’s affecting your hormones, why is it so complicated in the modern world, what are the new variables that didn’t exist and then what do we do to fix it. So do you wanna start—start us off?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so hormones are interesting, right? Hormones are these messengers, right? They help with inflammation. They help with growth mediation, i.e., healing and recovering, putting on muscle. They help with reproduction. Not only reproduction like in reproducing ourselves so we heal but also having children and healthy hormone balance is essential to us feeling good, to us having energy, to us being resilient and vital as we—as we age and deal with stressful situation. So hormone balance is really, really important. Now as women—women have 2 different kinds of hormones that are constantly in fluctuation generally speaking, right? Men are kind of this foghorn of hormones throughout the month. Again there’s some fluctuations on a daily basis with cortisol, as are women, but on a monthly basis, you know, men kinda have this flat rhythm regarding testosterone. Women have this kind of symphony of hormonal fluctuations regarding estrogen and progesterone. And I tell my patients estrogen is the hormone that makes you grow. Progesterone is the hormone that makes you grow up. Meaning estrogen just causes cells to just grow bigger, while progesterone helps cells to differentiate and mature, okay? This is important so throughout your cycle, kinda breaking down a woman’s monthly cycle I think is really important for the first place of connecting the dots of where abnormalities happen. So first off, women’s cycle begins with bleeding, with menstruation. Typically about 3-4 days, maybe 5 days long in some extenuating circumstances. That happens because of a drop in progesterone and estrogen. So progesterone and estrogen drop, that signals bleeding. So the uterine lining is now shed over that 3 to 5-day period. The next thing is the follicle starts to grow and that follicle, FSH from the brain is starting to be produced and that causes the follicle to grow. So FSH talks to the follicle, the follicle starts to grow. As the follicle grows, estrogen is produced by the follicle. That’s step 3. As estrogen is being produced, it eventually hits a—a toppling, you know, where it hits its highest level around day 6-9 or 6-10. Then progesterone starts to increase as estrogen tops out, alright? Progesterone is increasing due to LH. LH is luteinizing hormone. That’s a brain hormone. The two brain hormones are FSH and LH. As progesterone topples out around day 20-23 or so, that’s where hormones are at its highest regarding progesterone and then day 27-28, progesterone and estrogen fall. So if we kinda recap it real quick, briefly what’s happening is we have brain hormones causing the follicle to grow. The follicle stimulating estrogen. Estrogen stimulating LH, LH stimulating progesterone. Progesterone and estrogen dropping. And that’s kinda the general dr—gist of the average female cycle, right around 28 days or so, and about day 13-15 is where ovulation happens. That’s right where estrogen tops out and progesterone starts to rise. That’s where that 2-3 window of pregnancy happens. I’ll just take a breath and give you a chance to break it down, Evan.

Evan Brand:  Sure, sure, makes perfect sense. And a lot of women that you and I are working with may be perimenopause or menopausal so we can talk about the ebb and flow and things that change there. So basically as you’ve kinda alluded throughout most of the reproductive years, the estrogen and progesterone are in a pretty good balance, but then if you look at all the information with progesterone and estrogen levels changing, then it looks like the gap becomes bigger where there’s a relatively high estrogen compared to progesterone and that’s what we would call menopause, and then that’s when these symptoms can start to occur. So I guess what I should do now is just go through some of these what consider estrogen dominant symptoms. So this could be allergies. This could be breast tenderness. You have copper–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yeah.

Evan Brand:  Excess.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand:  Which I did a video on copper toxicity and everybody’s like blown away by the idea of too much copper. How about cold hands and cold feet? Decreased sex drive, depression with possibly some anxiety or agitation added to it. Could be dry eyes, fat gains especially around the abdomen, the hips, the thighs, fatigue. Could be brain fog, which sometimes that could be yeast-related as well. Hair loss, headaches, blood sugar issues and fertility, irregular periods. You and I have talked about amenorrhea, just missing your period completely before. Irritability, insomnia, mood swings. I could go on and on. I think that’s a pretty good handful of symptoms though.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, absolutely. So when estrogen’s out of whack, a whole bunch of symptoms happen. The real common ones like you mentioned—most females—these are the ones that I deal with on a daily basis with all my patients, you know, the big complaints. It’s gonna be moodiness. It’s gonna be breast tenderness. It’s gonna be cramping. It’s gonna be back pain. It’s gonna be migraines, moody, sweet cravings or sugar cravings, and I would say like water retention and even weight gain.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I would say the sex drive one has been something big. I ask that question on my intake, you know. Do you think your libido adequate? And it’s very, very rare to find a women over age 40 who says that her libido is adequate. You know, some women said they haven’t had a libido in 20 years. So I mean, these things can change with hormones and they’re not just gonna magically fall into place by diet and exercise. So eventually you and I are gonna outline what exactly is going on in the external environment that is throwing off this whole hormonal cascade here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly and typically, as a women ages, menopause is nothing more than the ovaries not functioning like they were when you were cycling and you have a drop in hormones from that. Typically over time, one the big things we see with hormonal—hormonal fluctuations over time is that estrogen drops at about 35% the rate from age 35 to 50, while progesterone can drop at 75% the rate. So this whole podcast is really surrounding the topic of estrogen dominance and part of estrogen dominance is just being exposed to a high amount estrogens in the environment—that we’ll go into in a second. The other half is is progesterone being essentially dropping so fast that estrogen—the ratio of estrogen goes above and beyond what would be normal essentially.

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So if progesterone starts to drop faster than estrogen, even though you may have more progesterone as a basic flat line number, that’s still gonna be estrogen dominance. I mean, some people say over the course of a whole cycle you’ll have 300 times more progesterone than estrogen. At certain times of the cycle, like depending on where you’re at like let’s say, in the follicular phase you may have as many—as much as 25 times more progesterone to estrogen. So it’s different from the perspective of where you are in your cycle, but in general estrogen and progesterone—progesterone will be about 25 to 300 times more in relationship to estrogen, alright? So if that skew starts to get disrupted and we start to have less progesterone, let’s say below 20, you know, below 15 on average, that may be a big driving factor of estrogen dominance and a lot of the whole PMS symptoms and the symptoms that you just mentioned as well—the brain fog, the libido, dry hair, dry skin, dry nails, cold hand, cold feet, cramping, breast tenderness, all the things we already mentioned.

Evan Brand:  And let’s talk about some of the causes here. Birth control being a big one that can contribute because with birth control, you’re basically just keeping your estrogen levels sky high and so this is just a common prescription for many teenage girls, I’ve heard of even girls as young as 12 years old now getting put on birth control pills for their periods, you know, if they’re having really bad periods. So talk us through that. What’s going on with birth control pills? Why are these such an issue?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, birth control pills are nothing more than like synthetic estrogens. You have like Yasmin and these synthetic estradiol compounds and they basically jack up your estrogen level as a female about 4 to 500%, 4 to 5 times. And that’s a problem because hormones, right? If you look at—go to any opera or any symphony, there’s a specific timing and a volume in which everything needs to operate in. If something goes too—too loud or too quiet or something, the timing’s off, you can easily have a beautiful symphony turn into noise pretty darn fast. Now taking that analogy to a hormone cycle, if those things start to go too high because of synthetic hormone overload or too low because of hormone stress driven by inflammation, that can start to create hormonal symptoms. So that’s the big thing right there off the bat. So estrogens are gonna be jacked up way high. Sometimes with the Merena IUD, that’s inter—interuterine compound that’s put up there to prevent the egg from implanting in the uterus lining, that is—that’s actually using synthetic progesterone. So that’s a little bit different. But most of the birth control pills are gonna be synthetic estrogen-based and basically what it’s doing is keeping the estrogen so high all the time so you don’t have that rise in progesterone happening. You don’t have that cycling of hormones. So basically it shuts the HPA axis and because your hormones are so high, the LH and FSH kinda go to sleep because–

Evan Brand:  So the body eats—the body thinks it’s pregnant.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, not necessarily. The body—well, I guess you could say at a certain level. Typically progesterone’s gonna be really high with pregnancy and you’re gonna have HCG off the chart. So you’re not gonna see that because if you ran a pregnancy test while you were on a birth control pill, you wouldn’t come back with a pregnancy test being positive because you’re not making–

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The beta HCG. But what it’s doing, it’s shutting down the brain because the brain has this domino rally of FSH raising and then LH raising, so kinda shuts that down, because when the hormones are really high, FSH and LH don’t really have to work as much because the high amount of hormones is just shutting down the whole entire symphony. It’s like going into a symphony and with the foghorn. You just overpower all the instruments, you just can’t hear anything.

Evan Brand:  Makes perfect sense. Let’s talk about the metabolism of these two. That’s something that people do not talk about. There are side-effects that we could go into. We won’t bore you with those today, but there are nutrients—your vitamin C, your magnesium, zinc, and other minerals that are required for metabolizing these pills through your liver. So if you look at someone who has been on birth control for many, many years, mo—more than likely you and I are gonna look at their adrenals. We’ll probably see low function and if we look at like an organic acids test and if we’re looking for vitamin C or other nutritional markers, they’re probably gonna be deficient. Maybe not a—maybe not the only cause would be birth control but it’s definitely a factor. And then now I know we have to mention the environmental part of estrogen still. You know, we’ve talked about adding excess estrogen in via birth control but we have all the xenoestrogens in the environment, and now we’re seeing teenage boys with man boobs and you know, this is not—this is not good. This is not something that would have happened let’s say even 100, maybe 150 years ago with this breast enlargement. Can—can we go through some of those like the, you know, the—the meats, the plastics, the canned goods, all of that stuff?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, exactly. So again, we already kinda mentioned some of the mild to moderate symptoms regarding estrogen dominance and again people that are listening that are familiar with some of the pathological situations like uterine fibroids, endometriosis, fibrocystic breast, polycystic ovarian syndrome, even breast tumors. Those are ultimate, you know, severe more pathological forms of estrogen dominance in action.

Evan Brand:  Right. It makes sense.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then—yeah, and regarding some of the underlying environmental causes, too much sugar is gonna drive a lot of this because too much sugar is gonna increase insulin. Insulin resistance drives more fat growth. Because if our cells are saturated and we can’t burn sugar in our muscles, well, guess what happens to that sugar? It goes right into fat and fat actually is its own exocrine gland. It produces a hormone that’s gonna cause fats—it’s gonna basically produce leptin which is another hormone that’s gonna decrease our body’s ability to signal satiation and signal that we’re full, which is another thing, and it’s also gonna produce more sex hormones like estrogen. So if we have more fat cells, fat cells will actually produce more hormones and throw us off even more. So driving insulin resistance, driving fat, fat will then drive more estrogen and then also it’s gonna screw up the whole combination here with leptin which is gonna make us feel hungrier and eat more of that same junk that got us there and to begin with. So a lot of these mechanisms that we overlay, you can see there’s almost like this vicious cycle to them where they kinda repeat itself on a loop over and over and over again.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, and then like you mentioned, they could all start with diet or sugar. So I mean, that’s a—that’s a huge one. It’s not something that we wanna skip over but you and I, we hit the diet piece so much that we’re assuming if you’re listening to this show, then you’re generally closer to like an AIP style diet where you’re not eating gluten. Maybe you’re doing a little bit of dairy in the form of like some ghee or some grass-fed butter.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Evan Brand:  But beyond that, you—you gotta have that foundation in place, and then we could go on with the personal care products. You got your pesticides and herbicides.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yes.

Evan Brand:  But you’re eating organic, you’re avoiding that. You got your makeup for women. So that—that is in the personal care category.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Huge.

Evan Brand:  But think about women that are lathering themselves a lot of times with heavy metals and phthalates and all that, too, in their makeups.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You also have your pesticides, I mean, a lot of those are estrogenic in origin. Pesticides, fungicides, herbicides. You have a lot of chemicals in the water as well. Remember when you get your water filtered back, the conventional water filtration in your community won’t filter out a lot of the hormones in the water. So you’re getting–

Evan Brand:  Yeah, we—oh yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  The—the trace amounts of pharmaceuticals you’re talking about–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  That people flush down the toilet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. Absolutely.

Evan Brand:  Fluoride would be another one that we could talk about.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  That’s another endocrine disruptor there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, fluoride. Also a lot of these polybrominated diphenyl ethers that are in flame-retardant products and various solvents, definitely not good. Milk if we’re drinking or consuming conventional dairy, a lot of the milks are treated with a Posilac, which is—or similar—no, Similac’s the formula. Yeah.

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It’s Posilac. Posilac is the growth hormone given to cows to produce more milk essentially and then we have conventional dairy or conventional meat which could come from cows because cows are gonna be given hormones as well on the meat side, right? You have your Jersey cows which produce the milk. They’re given the Posilac to make more breast milk or make more you know, cow milk, and then we have the cows that are eaten for steaks and meat and those cows are gonna be given more growth hormone and estrogens to make more meat as well. They’re also given mycotoxins, too, to produce more fat to make their meat more marble then they’re given a lot of grains which are loaded with mycotoxins as well to make the meat more marbled. So a lot of different chemical toxins that are coming in on both sides of the fence.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, not even to mention the grain they’re getting fed is likely sprayed with glyphosate or it’s genetically modified grain that these conventional meat products have consumed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bingo. Exactly.

Evan Brand:  Yeah. Last thing on—on the, I guess on the xenoestrogen route would be fragrances. So any woman or man wearing you know, perfumes, colognes, air fresheners, using those little trees that people put on their rearview mirror. It’s the worst smell on the world.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, absolute toxins.

Evan Brand:  Don’t use those.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolute toxins. I remember in high school, I used to love having those in my car like the—the vanilla scent one. I thought it was so cool but then the more I studied it, it was just absolute toxins.

Evan Brand:  So were you the guy who when one of the trees ran out of scent, did you go to the car wash and buy another tree and stack it on or did you remove the first one?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, I—I would remove the first one, but I always keep a tree in there to keep it going.

Evan Brand:  Oh, I—I’ve seen people who have 20 trees stacked on one another on their rearview mirror.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know.

Evan Brand:  They can’t even see out the windshield.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Isn’t that nasty?

Evan Brand:  It’s horrible. Well, actually, Luke who and I were talking about–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  Before the show–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Luke Storey.

Evan Brand:  Luke—he posted something online about he got in an Uber and he posted a picture of a guy who had like 20 of the black trees.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, God.

Evan Brand:  On his g—on his a—and so he had like a little portable ozone generator that he was breathing in in—in the backseat of the car.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, my God. Unreal.

Evan Brand:  Poor Luke.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know. What you gonna do?

Evan Brand:  Yeah. Let’s talk about phytoestrogens, too, in the food if—I guess we’ll hit the diet piece again. So these are your sources of soy. So mainly we’re talking about soy bean, your tofu, all of that. Something that’s frustrating for me is when you’re looking for a good protein bar, you may—you might find an organic protein bar at your health food store, but typically one of the first ingredients is gonna be soy protein crisp. It’s like come on, that’s not good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know. Whatchamacallit, yeah, Clif Bars has got them. Even I think–

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A lot of the Zone bars, too. There’s only a few bars that actually have decent, clean protein in their bars, but that’s a big one. Soy’s a big phytoestrogen. Outside of miso, natto, or tempeh, soy is—for the most part is not gonna be good. Some menopausal females can get away with a small amount of it, if fermented-wise because it can help modulate their hormones when they’re lower in estrogens, right? Menopausal, but for the most part, people should not be doing soy. It’s not a good thing. It’s—and outside of that, too, we talked about the chemicals. We talked the industrial solvents, the hygiene products. You can always go to the website, skindeep.com or org to look up your products that you use on your face, on your hair, on your skin, your makeup, and see how much chemicals or toxins are in them. Oh, stress! Stress is huge because stress will cause your progesterone which is a major building block of your hormones to go downstream. Meaning it will progesterone and shunt it in the cortisol or stress hormones so you can deal with whatever that stressor is, because your body is hardwired to prioritize stress and inflammation first over recovery and healing and fertility second. And it kinda makes sense because if you’re stressed now, the body wants to deal with that stress, get over it and then because able to repair later, because if it doesn’t deal with the stressor, it may not get to that next point of being–

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Able to heal and recover. So it’s just allocation.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, maybe you’re—maybe you’re dead and because you got eaten by the bear because your body was trying to repair and run at the same time. It can’t do both, so people who are listening, you know, always have the ancestral lens added as filter on to our conversations because this is very new. All this stuff that we’re dealing with, the environment is so new and we still have this ancient wiring systems that’s thinking–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  Okay, there’s a bear coming down my driveway right now, I need to be in Fight or Flight, so recovery is—is not prioritized. And people listening, even just you having a notification sound—Justin and I have talked about this before, but even just having notifications on your smartphone or your computer “Ding!” every time you get an email, that’s triggering a biological response in the brain, that’s a hormonal response. Your body’s thinking, “Oh, what the hell is in that email? Is that a bill? Is that letter from somebody I don’t wanna hear from? What’s in that inbox?” That could be a huge source of stress so you really need to—you could either track your heart rate variability or just track how you feel. If you feel your heart racing or gut hurting after you’re expose to social media, something like that, these are the invisible stressors that can really trigger stuff for people and if you put—well, what does that actually do? You’re just saying this. But what does it do? Well, it inhibits the conversion of—of hormone, your T4 to your active T3, and so then you’re gonna have those hypothyroid symptoms and it could all be due to the stress.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and just think about it like this, right? If you’re barely getting—barely making enough ends to meet, you know, you’re barely getting enough money to make ends meet, so to speak, right? Do you have enough money to go and start investing in things in the stock market or real estate? Probably not because you’re just so focused on getting the bills paid. That’s all you can focus on. Once the bills are paid, i.e., once you’re able to manage stress and inflammation in your life, then you can think about investments after that, right? Same thing hormonally with how your body is prioritized to allocate bandwidth to essentially.

Evan Brand:  Right, that—yeah, that’s well said.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You can–

Evan Brand:  Do you want talk about–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  Do you wanna talk about solutions for this? I think avoidance is kind of the—the big one that we could say in one sentence and be done with that, you know? Getting these things out of your life, making sure that you’re eating organic, making sure that you are staying away from the chemicals as much as possible. You’re looking at your skin care products. You’re looking at the makeup, the mascaras, the foundation, all of that crazy stuff that women put on to, you know, they feel like they have to put that on to be beautiful. I promise most women I see, they’re more beautiful without makeup. You look so much better. I tell my wife, “You don’t need it.” Country singers they say—they sing that in their songs like, “Oh, don’t put on makeup.” But it’s a real thing, especially if you have, you know, freckles and—and whatever natural skin pigmentation, that’s pretty. You don’t have to cover that up. So maybe turning off the TV is the first step to get through that process.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Because women are brainwashed into thinking they have to—to have caked on xenoestrogens to look pretty and they don’t.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly and that’s part of the whole, you know, brainwashing that Hollywood does, is they try to make most people feel incredibly inadequate about themselves so they can go buy some product and you know, frankly, it works. As much as a lot of women don’t like it and they complain about it, but it works and that’s why they do it.

Evan Brand:  Well, because if—yeah, you’re saying because if one lady is gonna wear makeup, then you don’t wanna be the only one without it?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right. I mean, I—my wife asked me, “Should I wear makeup tonight?” You know, she’s telling—she’s asking me this. I’m like, “No, you shouldn’t.” I like you better without makeup. It’s just—it’s better. It’s healthier.  But–

Evan Brand:  It really is.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But there are some natural things out there. I know there’s a-

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  There’s some—some mineral-based makeups that you can just kinda touch things up and it’s more mineral and more natural-based and it’s easy and you’re not adding a big toxic load. Those will be if you’re gonna use makeup because some people may not be ready to make that switch, but that’s the better next step to look at.

Evan Brand:  I’ve seen a couple organic mascaras. I don’t know how it could be organic. But Hannah’s purchased a few organic mascaras and then also a few foundations. I don’t know if they were considered organic or they were labeled without phthalates. I can’t think of the brand right now. I wanna say it had the name Doctor in it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Huh.

Evan Brand:  Doctor’s Best or something and it was a brand of makeup. If you look on Amazon, I know there’s a bunch of different companies out there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, absolutely. So diving in here, we talked about the stress allocation and how your bodies and your adrenals can be affected by this whole thing, right? Because of the prioritization of progesterone to cortisol. You also touched in on how that cortisol can affect your thyroid because if your hormones start going off, if progesterone starts going off, that can affect thyroid conversion because if cortisol’s out of balance, that can affect T4 to T3 conversion which is your inactive thyroid hormones, so you’re active thyroid hormone. And also progesterone’s a powerful stimulator of TPO, which is the enzyme that helps bind tyrosine and iodine together to make thyroid hormone. So progesterone is really important to building thyroid hormone. So you can see this is why you don’t just get one symptom when hormones go out of balance because it just has this constellation ripple that can happen and many symptoms can occur because of it.

Evan Brand:  Yup, well said. So avoidance. We talked about lifestyle changes, you know, doing what you can whether it’s a floating tank, whether it’s yoga, tai chi, qigong. There’s meditation. There’s gratitude exercises, journaling. You and I have done entire podcasts dedicated to that. I don’t wanna skim over it but I think there’s so much that said about stress that you—you just have to—you have to do it. And if you say that you don’t have 5 minutes to meditate, well, you probably need quadruple that amount of time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. Yup, setting a timer like that can be really helpful. Even just sitting and just breathing. Just—just staring literally out—out your window. Just staring and just thinking about the sky or whatever, just clouding your head or just whatever is going on and just think about whatever you’re looking at. That’s why you talk about forest bathing or walking in nature and just being 100% present where you’re at. Oh, look a tree! Oh, look a rock! And all you’re focused on is what your eyes are gazing at.

Evan Brand:  I love it. Yeah, I mean I’m looking outside right now. It’s a beautiful day here. It’s in the mid-60s so it’s getting chilly but the sky is so blue. I mean, I’m so grateful for that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it.

Evan Brand:  To not have a cloudy day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. That’s awesome.

Evan Brand:  Should we talk about nutrients? You wanna go there in terms of like estrogen metabolism support–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  Stuff like that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so let’s just kinda dive in the gut because the gut’s really important to the nutrients getting to where they have to go. Would you agree?

Evan Brand:  I, oh—yeah, 100%!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so we’ve kinda talked about it when we did our dry run round 1 on this podcast on Friday that got—didn’t quite go through on our side, so we’re even more polished for this podcast round 2. We talked about estrogen hormone conjugation, and conjugation is nothing more than putting a straightjacket on the hormone. Okay, so, you know, because we’re talking about estrogen here, estrogen begins with E so we’ll use Evan as our form of estrogen in this analogy.

Evan Brand:  Here we go.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Alright? So E for Evan, E for estrogen. I’m putting a straightjacket on Evan so I can escort him out of let’s say the—the rowdy club, right? He’s—he’s going crazy. He’s fist-pumping. We’re gonna put a straightjacket on him, escort him out of the club. That’s kinda like what our body does to estrogen. It’s done its thing. It’s going. It’s getting shot back out the gallbladder into the gut to get metabolized. We bind these proteins to it. It’s called conjugation or in this analogy, straightjackets on Evan so we can escort it out. The problem is back gut bacteria imbalances meaning more bad bacteria in relationship to good bacteria in your gut—this is called dysbiosis—this upregulates specific enzymes known as β-glucuronidase. You know it’s an enzyme because it ends on the word –ase. This enzyme basically comes over and takes the straightjacket off. So imagine Evan being escorted out of the bar, right? The club. He’s being rowdy. Someone clips open the straightjacket and now he’s loose and he’s—he’s running away from the bouncer or the police. That’s what happens. Estrogen gets unconjugated or deconjugated. Boom! It can go right back into circulation and cause tissue to grow, whether its endometriosis or cause fibroids to occur, or create hormonal imbalances and symptoms and mood swings, and affects your mood and—and cause you to gain weight. All these different things can happen when we have gut bacteria imbalances. So that’s kind of the—the estrogen-gut detox mechanism. And then we also have the fact that if we have malabsorption because we have too much gut bacteria imbalance, more bad than good. We have low stomach acid and low enzyme levels, well, we’re not gonna be able to break down a lot of the nutrients we need to be able to metabolize hormones, whether it’s B6 or zinc and magnesium or various B vitamins that, you know, help with phase 1 and phase 2 detoxification, sulfur-based amino acids. All these things have to be broken down into their constituents so they can be absorbed and get into circulation and also we need to ionize various minerals, like magnesium and zinc. These are really important minerals. We have ionize them. That basically allows these minerals to get soluble. It’s solubilized into the bloodstream so it can do its thing and be utilized.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so I mean we could add another layer on top of that. Parasites, yeast, we know–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Evan Brand:  With Doctor–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  All these things affect that.

Evan Brand:  Dr. Jonathan Wright’s book, Why Stomach Acid is Good For You. We know that any woman listening over age 30, you have lower levels of hydrochloric acid and enzymes than you did when you were 20. So it’s not to—you don’t have to guess and—and check and think, “Oh, do I low enzymes?” I guarantee it. I would suggest and you tell me if—if you suggest different, but I generally suggest anyone over age 30 especially people that busy or eating in a rush or scrolling–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Big time.

Evan Brand:  Scrolling on their phone while they’re eating which is a big no-no, you gotta have enzymes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%.

Evan Brand:  Supplemental enzymes that is.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I mean enzymes and/or hydrochloric acid because hydrochloric acid actually activates enzymes.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hydrochloric acid activates pepsinogen to pepsin in the stomach and also provides the PA stimulation for the pancreas to produce trypsin, chymotrypsin, lipase, a whole bunch of other proteolytic enzymes that are really important. So without HCl and/or enzymes, you’re gonna be in a world of hurt when it comes to digestion. And most women don’t get this, men as well, but they don’t understand the fact that you can have digestive problems and may not actually have digestive symptoms. People think, “Well, hey I don’t have diarrhea or constipation or bloating, I’m not too gassy, I don’t burp too much, I don’t have any acid reflux, and I got to the bathroom every day. Hey, I don’t have a problem.” Right? But a lot of times, their moodiness, their PMS, they migraines, their other issues in their body–

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Can be driven by the inflammation going in their gut because they’re not—they don’t or they’re not expressing with atypical—I’m sorry, they’re not expressing with typical gas symptoms, bloating, gas, constipation, diarrhea. They’re expressing with atypical, outside of the norm symptoms that just are really hard to be connected and their medical doctor they go to won’t ever recognize it because they are great, they’re depressed—could be a hormonal issue, could be a gut issue, but guess what? They’re gonna be put on Wellbutrin–

Evan Brand:  Lexapro.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Lexapro, Paxil. Hey, you know they’re feeling, you know, a little bit anxious. Great, they’re gonna get thrown on Xanax.

Evan Brand:  Ugh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, you know, they’re feeling like their cycle’s a little unstable, they’re getting thrown on a birth control pill. It could totally be from–

Evan Brand:  That’s horrible.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  All the other dysbiosis and the poor detox happening in their gut.

Evan Brand:  It’s horrible, man. It’s horrible. I had a female last week, she asked me—we found Giardia and Blasto—the double, double trouble there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Double trouble.

Evan Brand:  And she said, “Well, I don’t have any gut symptoms. Do we still have to treat it?” I said, “100%, you can—just because you’re, you know, not running to the bathroom with diarrhea, the typical manifestation of Giardia, it doesn’t mean we can just let it stay there.” Could you—maybe you would have a—a more, a better answer than me. I just said, “Absolutely.” But I know there could be more to that. You can be as long-winded as possible with this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, I tell people that everyone has the right to be infection-free, right? That’s my goal. To make sure everyone’s infection-free. Now the problem is everyone also has the right to have more than one issue going on at once. So a lot of patients, they have hormonal imbalances, but they also have other issues that are driving the hormonal imbalances that don’t necessarily from bird’s eye view connect, i.e., the Blasto and Giardia and this girl’s female hormone or mood symptoms. So–

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so anytime there’s a stressor, that’s an issue. It’s like you walk into your house. Okay, let’s say you have a couple of guest bedrooms. Let’s say you don’t go in those guest bedrooms for a while. The guest that was in there last left the water running just a bit. You don’t know it. You don’t hear it. But you get this water bill every month and it’s just a little bit higher than you’re used to and you’re like, “Why the heck is my water bill 30% higher? I’m barely even using it. I’m gone half the month. What’s going on?” And then you look over and you’re like, “Oh, the water in my guest bedroom’s on. That’s what it is. I’m gonna turn it off.” Now what’s this equal? Having water in your guest bedroom on is like having a parasite or a bug stealing your nutrition, pooping inside of you, i.e., creating biotoxins, creating inflammation and maybe even creating leaky gut which is stressing your immune system which takes up energy. All of those stressors like that parasite or infections involved in, toxins, malabsorption, leaky gut, immune activation, that’s nothing more than draining your energy. So instead of your energy being allocated to performance and recovery and healing, right? It’s going towards something else. Just like your water bill’s being sucked towards these guest bedrooms that you don’t even—you’re not even aware of them because you’re not there on a day-to-day basis.

Evan Brand:  Now so from the nervous system perspective, couldn’t we say that you’re gonna be sympathetic dominant, more fight or flight?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  More, 100%. Yeah.

Evan Brand:  Because you’re fighting an internal battle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bingo! And the problem, the sympathetic nervous system, the allocation because we’re hardwired this way and it totally makes sense is when the fight or flight, the sympathetic, that’s like the gas, go, go, go, go, go. That’s the gas, the sympathetic fight or flight nervous system shuns blood flow towards the muscles, towards the outer extremities because we have to fight and flee and we need oxygen and nutrition and glucose to get to those outer extremities so we can perform. If the blood glucose is inside the intestines and inside all the organs where they should be and they’re digesting, you will not be able to run as fast. That’s the main reason why activity after your meal is destructive for your digestion, you get an upset stomach. Remember the old analogy of like, “Hey, you shouldn’t go swim. You should wait, what, 2 hours or an hour after you eat to go swimming.” Why is that? It’s because at some point, someone did that and they got a cramp because there wasn’t enough blood flow or they got an upset stomach and got sick.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So–

Evan Brand:  Because you’re trying to rest and digest and be active at the same time. You can’t do it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and the analogy is this, right? If the sympathetic fight or flight nervous system is your foot in the gas, and if the digestive system and relaxation and repair is the brake pedal, what happens when you hit the gas pedal and brake pedal at the same time?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, it’s not a good—not a good—not a good picture.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  No, no, exactly.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You’re—you’re spending a lot of time going nowhere fast.

Evan Brand:  Yup, so to wrap this whole segment up of—of this part of the—the conversation. If you’re someone listening, especially female, or you and I are working together, you’re working with Justin already, and you tell us, “Yeah, but my life’s not that stressful. I’m not that stressed.” It doesn’t matter because all of this hormonal imbalance and these symptoms that you have could all be going on due to something in your gut. And Justin, you and I both are—we’ve seen false negatives on stool test results. So sometimes it may take one or two or three times to really find what’s going on. So if you’ve gone to your conventional doctor or even the gastroenterologist, the specialist you’re gonna get referred to that’s gonna throw you on prescription acid blockers, if they run tests on you and how up negative, don’t necessarily take their word for it. I hate to say this that these prestigious hospitals and et cetera are missing infections but you and I see it every single day in the clinic and we’re finding these infections. So if you actually get something on a piece of paper, you’re gonna have a lot more room to work with. So don’t just go buy hormone balancing or hormone this or hormone that supplement. You really need to get to the root of the root which in some cases could be the infection route.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, 100%. And again, really looking at everything holistically is really exactly how you have to do it because of the interplay with body systems that may not typically connect to the average person because you know, they’re not a trained functional medicine clinician and definitely will not connect with the average conventional medical doctor because they’re training is drug symptom, drug symptom, drug symptom, and they don’t look at upstream stressors and body systems that may be out of balance.

Evan Brand:  Sure, so I’ll put it even more—even more direct. If you’re going to your OB-GYN or your endocrinologist, they’re not gonna have a clue about you having a cryptosporidium infection in your gut and giving you an herbal protocol to remove that infection so that your hormones come back into balance.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%.

Evan Brand:  It’s never gonna happen. I mean, I will—I will bet you know every silver bar that exists on the planet that—that you’re not gonna get it. If you do, then that doctor, they—they’ve stepped up their game and they’ve done some functional, you know, they’ve taken some functional courses.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And sometimes it’s good like get that workup done. You know, just you know, go with the low-hanging fruit. I find most of the time patients come to see me and that’s already been done–

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And it’s already been missed but hey, always start with what’s the easiest and you know, what I consider to be the low-hanging fruits, that way you know you’ve crossed your T’s and dotted your I’s so to speak and then you can go up the chain regarding the—the functional medicine, you know, ladder so to speak.

Evan Brand:  Sure, and I guess we could briefly talk about, you know, the financial aspect of it, too. If someone does have health insurance or they’re able to go see a doctor through their work and it’s at no charge to them, then you might as well try to milk that for as much as you possibly can, but unfortunately in most cases the lab results that get sent over to you and I that we review, there’s not much evidence there. We can’t really work with that. We really have to do the more functional tests which are an investment but sometimes that’s what it takes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%. So looking at this point here. If everyone listening or anyone listening is dealing with a—a hormonal imbalance, whether it’s men and just having low libido and—and poor muscle tone or women having PMS or menopausal symptoms or everything in between that we already mentioned, the whole litany of—of different items there, the next step is gonna be one, digging into the female hormones, right? Testing hormones at the right time of your cycle. We test female hormones typically around Day 20 or so if we’re looking at progesterone to estrogen. Some we even run a month-long cycle to see how the hormones fluctuate every other day. And some will even dig deeper into looking at thyroid as well as a full gut panel. So depending on where you’re at, if you’re having issues and you’ve already kind of ruled out the things we’ve already talked about on the diet and lifestyle, the next step would be to step it up regarding the functional medicine’s options that are available and kind of our—our palette if you will.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So the next step would be to reach out to either myself, to Evan, notjustpaleo, Dr. J myself, justinhealth.com or some other competent trained functional medicine doctor or practitioner to get everything kinda lined up in order based on what we talked about in the podcast today.

Evan Brand:  You hit on the—the last word that I wanted to say is the order.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Evan Brand:  You know, something that is very important for anything, you know. If this is just adrenal problems or just hormone problems or just gut problems, whatever it is, it has to be done in the right order. Please, please, please don’t add to your supplement graveyard because you read about some product on Amazon or you saw it at the health food store and it was in the hormone section. Save your money because if you’re doing things in the wrong order, you’re really just wasting your money. Now I’m not gonna say that taking a zinc supplement is necessarily gonna make you worse because we know that–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  No.

Evan Brand:  70% of women or more are not getting enough zinc, so yeah it’s not going to hurt you. It might help you but why go and spend all this money if it’s not done in the right order because you’re gonna save so much more money in the long run if you do things in the right order by working with a practitioner.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, it’s like baking a cake, right? Let’s just pretend it’s a gluten-free flourless cake for our—for our healthy analogy, right? You have the eggs. You have the—the coconut flour or you have maybe some Stevia in there, whatever else, maybe some grass-fed butter or coconut oil. Well, how we mix things in baking a cake is really important to the outcome of the product, of the outcome of the cake.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So let’s say you—you do start doing a heavy metal cleanse first, gut-killing second. You work on the diet 3 months into it and then you don’t touch the hormones and the thyroid til month 4. Well, you did a lot of things that were supposed to be done but they were just all done in the wrong order. Just like making a cake, you cook it before you mix the eggs and then you add the—the Stevia at the end or whatever. It doesn’t come out to be a nice-looking cake.

Evan Brand:  Yup, yup, Well-said.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Anything else you wanna add, Evan?

Evan Brand:  I don’t think so. I think this is—this has been good coverage. Share this, if you have somebody who’s going through all this stuff. I mean, I could think of 20 people right off the top of my head who I know have problems with estrogen metabolism or estrogen dominance. So sharing is caring. This is the information that has to get out there. We’re gonna continue doing our work, we’ve got, you know, between Justin and I both, we’re over—likely over 6 million. I haven’t counted. I know for sure, 100% guaranteed over 5 million downloads of conversations that we’re having, probably up to 6 million by the 4-year anniversary of my show which is coming up really darn quick. I think it’s November 11th of 2012–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Evan Brand:  Would be the 4-year anniversary. So that’s—that’s a lot of people but that’s still not enough. That—I mean look at the suffering out there. Look at the people that are going and they’re spinning their wheels and they’re buying these diet programs and they’re buying these fitness books and they’re not getting the answers and they’re beating their heads against the walls, and they’re buying you know, diet root beers and look at Pepsi. I mean they had to bring back their aspartame version of their Diet Pepsi because so many people complained about the taste, you know? So don’t prioritize the taste. You know, prioritize the—the quality of your—of your liquids, the quality of your nutrition. Prioritize that better over taste and if you ask me, I think aspartame tastes horrible and it’s a neurotoxin, not to mention. So always look at something through the lens of the quality, not necessarily the taste or the cost or—or all of that, because you’re really gonna save yourself a lot of trouble if you start turning around the boat now as opposed to waiting til when you hit rock bottom and then you’re coming to Justin or myself and then you’re saying, “Look, I’ve had this stuff going on for 20 years.” Well, how long have you known something was wrong? “Well, I knew I should have gotten help you know, back in 2003, but I didn’t.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Evan Brand:  You know, don’t be—don’t be one of those people. Thousands of people have come to our clinics. It’s your turn. If you’re suffering, stop suffering. You don’t need to.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bingo. Love it, Evan. Well, feel free and reach out to Evan at notjustpaleo.com, Dr. J myself, justinhealth.com or beyondwellnessradio.com. Subscribe to the podcast and the YouTube channel and we look forward to providing more information very soon.

Evan Brand:  Check out Justin’s videos. He’s over 20,000 subscribers on YouTube. He’s gonna be—I’m telling him, he’s gonna be the King of Functional Medicine on YouTube.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Just able to help more people. I love it.

Evan Brand:  Yes, sir. Take care!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Have a good day, Evan.

Evan Brand:  Bye!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bye!

 

Bloating and gas solutions from extra protein and fat intake

bloating and gas solutionsBy Dr. Justin Marchegiani

Today’s talk is going to be on gas and bloating from increasing proteins and fats in your diet. I see this quite frequently with patients in my clinic where patients have come to me. They’re on the standard American diet, a lot of processed carbs, a lot of grains. That kind of 60, 15, 20—60-70% carbohydrates, lower amounts of fats and moderate amount of proteins.

And now, we are changing their diet around by reducing a lot of the inflammatory foods, the grains, the refined sugar, the inflammatory omega 6 fats. We are pulling them out and shifting it. We are increasing good fats and maybe some more good protein to stabilize blood sugar. And guess what happens? They start getting bloaty and gassy. Now what does that mean? So let’s break down some of the digestive physiology. Let’s go through what it could potentially mean and some interventions and treatment options.

 

Get expert advice on how to get rid of bloating and gas from a functional medicine doctor by clicking HERE!

Bloating and gas from fats and proteins

Let’s give you some contextual value of what the physiology is doing so it makes sense. So we have our stomach and kind of laid it out, left or right. Typically the intestines are all kind of mushed up in this spaghetti goose. Protein digestion primarily happens in the stomach. What does that mean? So if we start giving someone more protein, more high-quality protein, whether it’s grass-fed meat, maybe omega 3 rich, you know, wild Alaskan sockeye salmon, maybe a clean collagen powder, that protein—well, maybe not the powder per se; but the real animal whole food proteins, they get digested in the stomach.

 

The Digestive Process

digestive process

Stomach

Step one is when hydrochloric acid is produced. Hydrochloric acid activates certain enzymes from the stomach that kicks off the cascade for protein digestion. Step two is this acidic chime. This nice low pH of about 2-2.5, gets released into the small intestine and from here, what happens is we have our organs involved—imagine this being our gallbladder (GB) and then this is our pancreas. Based on the acidity, they actually shoot over some bile salts and some enzymes, multiple enzymes—lipase, trypsin, chymotrypsin.

In the gallbladder, we have various bile salts and that’s going to kick off fat digestion. But again there’s still going to be some protein digestion happening in the small intestine as well. This is because we do have other proteolytic enzymes coming out from the pancreas such as trypsin and chymotrypsin. So you can see protein digestion here. Fat and protein digestion is here.

Small Intestine

Now again, this is the first part of the small intestine. So this is the small intestine down here and these are the different parts: the duodenum, the jejunum, and the ileum. And again, we need nice acidity coming in here. So here are the three parts. A lot of the nutrients gets reabsorbed in the small intestine and if we don’t break it down at step one or step 2, then we’re going to have problems here.

Colon

Here’s our colon here as well. And again, what typically happens here is nutrients are all extracted here and then what happens here we have electrolytes get re-uptaken along with different fluids as well. So we have electrolytes met various minerals and then fluids. We have proteins, fats and proteins, and electrolytes and fluids. And we have different processes that can go wrong that can create dysfunction.

Digestion Issues

Now let’s talk about what can happen. So over here with the stomach, we can easily have acid reflux and heartburn if we’re not breaking down our protein correctly. Again, the nice acidity tightens up this esophageal sphincter up there. So nice acidity closes that up tight and prevents acids from rising up. We have to make sure we break it down. And so we reflux to that esophageal sphincter to close it up so that acid won’t come back up.

Same thing down here in the small intestine. If we don’t create a whole bunch of these enzymes to break down these foods, we’re going to have more fermentation, putrefaction and rancidification. Rancidification are fats going bad. Fermentation is going to be carbohydrates getting a whole bunch of gases being fed on by the bacteria being created, and then putrefaction is the proteins rotting.

If we don’t have this happen correctly here, a whole bunch of gas, a whole bunch of bloating will happen. We have our  ileocecal valve acting as a two-way street, so we have either bad bacteria from here going this way, or bacteria going the other way. So if we have bad bacteria, it can go back and forth and create more gas, more bloating, more flatulence, and more intestinal disruption. The bloating, the gas, the discomfort, the indigestion, feeling is like there’s a brick in your tummy.

 

Acid reflux, burping, bloat

With stomach issues, one of the first things we notice is burping, belching. Excessive gas is here because food is not being broken down properly. Now more fats and proteins do a couple of things. They put more stress on your digestive system. So let’s say you have this much hydrochloric acid and enzymes in your stomach to digest much protein and fat; if we start increasing protein and fat because your digestive physiology is not going to be enough to start creating an indigestion of protein down here, then it will give rise to acid reflux, maybe the burping, the belching and the bloat.

Maldigestion

And then same thing happens down here; if we don’t knock over this domino correctly, let’s say it falls and misses, the second domino is not going to fall correctly either. So we’re going to have maldigestion of more fats and more proteins, and this can create more gas in the intestines, more bloating, more gas.

Fermentation, Putrefaction, Rancidifcation

We may start even to see with the fermentation, putrefaction and rancidification lower in the intestines. We may even start seeing more flatulence, too. And a good gauge is if your flatulence is kind of foul-smelling, that’s more methane. Methane gases tend to drive more constipation. Hydrogen gases tend to be more air like you don’t have the foul odor as much. But again, those are just general rules of the game there.

Constipation or Diarrhea

And then again, you can see here with the colon, we could have either constipation or diarrhea from the colon. Again if we have excess hydrogen gas, we can have more diarrhea, excess methane gas more constipation, or we can have a combination of the two, an alternate back and forth. So you can see here, each step is really important – Protein, protein and fat, reabsorbing electrolytes and fluid.

Lab Testing

lab testing

Now we can do different lab testing to look at the function each step along the way. So in the stomach, we may look at glucose testing or we may look at various H. pylori test or dysbiotic bacteria test to look for things that could be causing protein to maldigest in the stomach.

With fats and proteins in the small intestine, we may look at SIBO testing, like a lactulose breath test which can be effective at looking at the hydrogen and methane gases. Of course, different highly functioning stool—highly specialized stool tests that maybe look at DNA or stool antigens of various infections like parasites, bacteria, Klebsiella, Citrobacter, fungal overgrowth. Also, the different types of critters and worms can be effectively looked at with this type of testing.

And again, infections can affect any step along the way and if you have an infection up higher, guess what? It’s going to cause the domino of top to fall off track and then all the other dominoes below will be off kilter. So again, issues up top can cause issues to spill down to the next and so on.

 

Treatment Options

treatment options

Diet

Well, obviously diet is going to be important. So if we draw our 3 macronutrient dials—these are our dials here. So we have carbs, proteins and fats. Imagine we can control our little dials or we have levers. Either one to help get your mind wrapped around it, we would just dial down the proteins and fats just for the time being. We also work on supporting digestive secretions, HCL enzymes, bile salts to help break down these foods in the stomach. So that’s a really good start.

We may even look at certain diet options, too. Even FODMAP approaches or specific carbohydrate approaches where we cut down these Fermentable, Oligo-, Di-, Mono-saccharides and Polyols—the specific fermentable sugars in the diet. We may even look at cutting out phenols and salicylates, and even peeling and/or really mashing and cooking our vegetables well, and even avoiding raw veggies, too.

Click here now to get treated for any digestive issues by a functional medicine doctor!

Nutrients

We treat the various infections that come up and we also may have, depending on how long the problems have been happening, malabsorption. And the longer it’s been happening, the more nutrients get malabsorbed. Part of what’s important in the stomach and hydrochloric acid is it helps to ionize minerals. That allows minerals to get into the bloodstream and to go where they need to go, so they can be absorbed and utilized.

So we can easily have mineral issues and minerals are so important because zinc helps make hydrofluoric acid. If we are low in zinc, that can affect our body’s ability to make more hydrochloric acid. It also affects sex hormone levels. If we have low sex hormones and the more inflamed we are, that will cause inability to repair.

Also if we can’t break down proteins, it will affect other factors, too, since proteins become our neurotransmitters. It helps how we feel, control the reward centers like dopamine and serotonin. It also becomes the precursor to sleep hormones like melatonin. And you can see, if your sleep starts going and your mood starts going, and then we lose the ability to break down high-quality cholesterol in our diet that’s the building block to a lot of our hormones, we now start having poor sleep, poor sex hormones, poor mood. We also have PMS, we have brain fog, and we don’t have the building blocks to help our body repair.

So you can see digestive issues can really start to make this whole thing spiral out of control.


Try some of the things I already mentioned earlier in the video. If that’s not working, click on screen so you can schedule a consult with myself. We can dig in a little bit deeper and help you get to the next step of what could be going on under the hood, so to speak. And then also click on the subscribe button. We have more videos coming your way, lots of great solutions to your everyday health challenges.

Using ketosis to lose weight and improve your health – Podcast #109

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand dive into an in-depth discussion about nutritional ketosis and what benefits you can reap from it. This is a podcast episode where you’ll get valuable information about a Ketogenic-Paleo diet, what to eat (and when!) to get the best results.

ketosisLearn why insulin needs to be kept low and the ketones high. Find out how you can keep your diet in check and avoid wasting money when you’re taking exogenous ketones. Discover why carbohydrates are better consumed during night time.

In this episode, topics include:

03:38   What is Ketosis? Who is it for?

08:35   Kinds of ketones

09:50   Ketone supplements

17:36   Using ketones beneficially

28:45   Ketoacidosis vs ketosis

itune

 

 

youtuve

 

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Evan, it’s Dr. J! It’s a Monday. How’re we doin’?

Evan Brand:  Hey, I’m doin’ great. What’s up with you?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, it’s good that you survived the weekend.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, it was extremely exciting weekend with the baby—getting a lot of trouble with the baby.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nice. What’d you guys do?

Evan Brand:  Just hanging out at the park, hanging out outside.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nice. That’s awesome.

Evan Brand:  You get—you get stopped by a lot of people when you have a baby.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, I know. I just a got a dog a month or two ago and I just—I’ve never realized how many people are dog lovers, but man, we get so much attention when we have our dog. It’s crazy.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, if you were single. That would be the easiest way.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I told my wife that. I said, if I ever—like if something ever happened where I can go back in time—if I were to do it all over again. I would’ve got a dog like right off the bat, like just a really cute, small dog but it’s all good. I’m happy where I’m at.

Evan Brand:  Yup, cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But I wanted to say, we were talking pre-show there that I got a crown today and I go see a holistic dentist in Austin. Her name is Dr Joan Sefcik. I’m gonna actually have her on the podcast real soon. We’re gonna talk about root canals, cavities, crowns, all those things, but I had an issue with my tooth where I needed a crown. About 16 years ago I split my tooth in half when I was really young, just eating a whole bunch of sugar, eating a whole bunch of gluten. Hadn’t really got the message back then about health. Split my tooth but I was actually able to keep it together with some cement, and obviously changed my diet and never had anything like that happened with my tooth again, but I had those—the long-term consequence of that tooth being unstable so we put a crown on it and we actually did some testing, too, to figure out what the best material was and we actually—I think we ended on a cubic zirconia. So right now I have an acrylic crown that’s a temporary one and we got a cubic zirconia one coming in. We had it muscle tested and we called the lab. We—we chose the top 3 materials that test the best based on blood chemistry and then we muscle tested the top 3 and I tested great for all of them which was great, and then the doc said, “Well, you know, this is the one I have the best success with, and because you tested great with all three, we’re gonna go with this one.”

Evan Brand:  So I’m sure people wanna know with holistic dentistry, that’s all cash no insurance for that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A little bit. I mean, we have some dental but I—you know, I paid that I think out of pocket. I think it ended up costing me like a thousand bucks for the crown–

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And if I didn’t have insurance, it would have cost me $1500. Something like that.

Evan Brand:  Oh, okay. So insurance kinda works for holistic dentistry.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A little bit. I mean, the thing is what’s holistic is the material we’re using, right? We’re not using the standard-based crap. I think it’s nickel a lot of times–

Evan Brand:  Yeah, it’s horrible.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Which can screw up with, you know, the conduction of nerves in the body. So that’s the big thing and also she used a lot of ozones as she go in there. She’d use ozone and get in there, like a lot of essential oils. So it was really targeted to kill a lot of the bacteria and crap that could be in there even though she—I actually asked her, she said it was great, which is good. It’s testament to you know, good, clean—clean eating. So we’re gonna have her on the show real soon to talk more about healthy teeth and oral hygiene, so that that’ll be fun.

Evan Brand:  Awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So I’m doin’ pretty good. Not bad. I get to go get my cubic zirconia tooth. My wife was texting me, it’s like, “Is that gonna look like one of those fake diamonds?”

Evan Brand:  Is it?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  In your mouth? No, I don’t think so. I asked. It’s gonna look, you know, it’s gonna look cosmetically in sync with my other teeth. So it’ll be alright.

Evan Brand:  Awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. So we talked about doing something on ketosis. I’ve had Jimmy Moore on the podcast. I’ve spoken on Livin’ La Vida Low Carb Cruise. We did a podcast a few months ago on Keto OS which is a synthetic ketone supplements and look forward to digging in a little bit more on ketosis.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, there’s a lot of benefits. Ketosis in my opinion is not for everyone at every point in their life. It has a lot of incredible benefits for weight loss but if you have adrenal issues in my experience, some people feel worse. Maybe there is that adjustment period but I find that if people are just they’re afraid of carbs, they can tank out even more. What’s—what’s your experience with adrenal issues and—and ketosis?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So I think ketosis is phenomenal for most people that are out there, especially if you’re dealing with metabolic syndrome, meaning there’s a level of insulin resistance and you’re body is having a difficult time tapping into fat for fuel, ketosis is phenomenal because what you’re doing is imagine fat is like this big branch and we’re trying to throw that branch into the wood chipper and then out of that wood chipper comes these things called ketones, and these ketones can be used by different tissue in the body and the thing is, glucose actually burns dirty. Right? It’s like a diesel fuel. You kinda sm—it’s smells. It’s stinky. If you ever drive by in a diesel car, at least the older ones. But ketones they burn really clean and when I say burn really clean, you don’t get a lot of reactive oxygen species or free radicals afterwards. So it burns really clean like that and also you don’t get the effects of glycation, which is basically all the proteins or tissue in your body gets sugar-coated and that creates basically a m—a magnet for free radicals. So we like ketones because of the stability they give people, right? With sugar, we get this up and down reactive hypoglycemic effect with a lot of people that are doing refined sugar or just higher glycemic foods, meaning they get into your bloodstream really fast. We don’t quite get that with ketones. So the big issue is most people who have metabolic syndrome, big waist, high blood pressure, lots of inflammation, lots of insulin and blood sugar, they can’t get the sugar into their cells and utilize it for fuel optimally. So they can’t—their cells are—are very resistant so they start—one, they get reliant on sugar to burn but two, their cells don’t wanna take it in a lot and actually burn it so they get very tired and a lot of that that gets put in gets stored as fat. So it’s a double edged sword. They’re tired. They don’t wanna exercise. They get cravings. They create more sugar and then when your insulin levels are high, it basically blocks fat from being burned so you’re primarily burning sugar but you can’t get a lot of it to the cells so you’re tired.

Evan Brand:  Right. I’ve heard recently which I’ve read. I can’t remember what I was reading. There’s this kind of—there’s kind of a myth that’s perpetuated where people who are only a fat burner or only a sugar burner and that’s not the case. It seems that most people have the ability to do both and if you wanted to survive in primal times then you would have, you better have that ability to be able to burn glucose or ketones to survive. But I think the goal of that is you just wanna be primarily a fat burner, not primarily a sugar burner which is what would you say, 90% of the population is probably primarily glucose—glucose driven?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I would say at least 75%, and we talk in generalities, right? We’re talking like, “Hey, you know, you’re primarily burning sugar for fuel or primarily burning fat for fuel.” That’s—that’s the thing that we’re kinda get across there and most people, you know, when we talk about calorie partitioning, their partitioning, right? You know, imagine you got a police officer and his siphoning people through, “Go that way. Go that way.” You got all these calories that are going through and the police officer is saying, “Hey, go this way into the fat cell. Get stored as fat and a small amount will actually get burned. So we’re not shunting those calories. “Hey, go to the mitochondria. Get burned. Create energy.” While you’re creating energy, you’re building muscle because you’re doing something that’s creating resistance in the body which builds muscle, whether it’s the piezoelectric effect and you’re building calcium into the bone or whether you’re putting muscle into the muscle belly. So we wanna essentially use that you know, traffic policer officer or that you know, flight tower attendant that’s telling the planes which direction to go. We want tell those calories, “Hey, go to the mitochondria. Get burned versus get stored in the fat cell.” And one the biggest ways we can do that especially with people that have this insulin resistance metabolic syndrome is getting into ketones by cutting carbs.

Evan Brand:  Yup, so–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Typically down to 20-30g is a great starting point for most people. Go ahead.

Evan Brand:  Now, the people actually need to count? I mean, I’m probably in ketosis now at this point because I haven’t had much today. I had some—I had a bison burger and also I had some bison—or no, what did I have for breakfast? Had some kinda meat and—and I can feel that. I know because you can feel your breath start to stink a little bit more. That’s how you know. That’s like the first sign of ketosis or one of the first signs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, yeah, you get the acetone but I mean, if you’re only at like .5 mmol, I mean that’s not a ton. So maybe your breath gets a little bit fruity, that’s the acetone. So there’s 3 kinds of ketone. There’s acetone. There’s beta-hydroxybutyrate and there’s acetate. So like if you look at the breath meters. The breath meters are really measuring the acetone in the breath and then the blood is measuring the beta-hydroxybutyrate–

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  In the blood.

Evan Brand:  Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right? And then some will actually measure the ketones in the urine, not that efficient because if you’re burning ketones, well, that means if you’re burning them they may not end up in the urine, right? So if you get someone who’s in ketosis, they’re spitting out a whole bunch of ketones but they’re burning them up efficiently they may not pee a lot out. Does that make sense?

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So early on you get a lot of people that are in ketosis but they’re body’s not efficient at burning those ketones so those ketones go in the urine to start.

Evan Brand:  Well, let’s–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But then later on as they get more efficient, you won’t see them in the urine. That’s why I got my ketone meter right here. I use the Abbott Precision Xtra or Precision Xtra and it’s—I got blood sugar on there as well as ketone strips, too.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I’ve done the breath. It was by Ketonix.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  I’ve done their breath one. That one was pretty good. I find that I had like a low level of ketones all of the time. Let’s clear something up though. When people hear about ketones, they’ve likely been in the grocery store or Walgreen’s or somewhere and they’ve seen the raspberry ketones as a weight loss supplement. They became very popular over the last probably 5 years. First off, raspberry ketones, they’re not even derived from raspberries when you see those. Most of the time when I’ve looked at the ingredients, a lot of times there’s synthetic chemicals in there. There’s artificial colors, sometimes artificial sweeteners in these raspberry ketones. So I do not recommend them. I don’t actually know enough about what’s actually in there to know what’s actually going to happen but generally just looking at some of the ingredient list on ketones, it—it’s garbage.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, raspberry ketones aren’t necessarily ketones. I mean, if you look at what’s in there, there are these phenolic compounds that aren’t your typical beta-hydroxybutyrate whether it’s calcium or sodium beta-hydroxybutyrate salts. Like if you look at a lot of the ketone products, there’s Keto OS. There’s another one, a Keto Sport I think, and they’re using the beta-hydroxybutyrate salts, calcium or sodium. Those are like the gold standard. Now you can use precursors, right? Kinda like how we use maybe pregnenolone for adrenal support precursors. You can use precursors like medium chain triglycerides which are gonna be primarily C8 and C10. Like the, you know, the brain—the brain ketones are more C8, right? Octanoic acid or I think that’s maybe caprylic, there’s two names. I like the octanoic because it’s more descriptive. The oct–, octo–, octagon, that’s 8—8 carbons. So typically we’ll do ketones that are C8 and C10 because you get the brain effects of ketones but you also get the metabolic effects. So like typically in the morning after I have either a good clean collagen shake or some eggs and I do my butter coffee with high quality MCT oil. I’ll get my ketones up within an hour or 2 to—to .5, .6 mmol and I feel great.

Evan Brand:  Do you measure that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I measure it, yeah. Now the thing is with the Ketonix, it’s more qualitative. So like that number like let’s say you’re—you’re a different color or light on that variant. That light that you hit one day, you may hit it the next day but your number may have been different if you were measuring it in mmol of ketones. So it’s a good indicator to—to say if you’re in ketosis. It’s not a good quantitative indicator of what exactly were you.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, the other brand that I’ve seen before. I’m looking—trying to find the ingredients right now is Kegenix. So I’m trying to see what’s in here. It’s $200 for a 4-week supply.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, they’re kind of expensive. My biggest thing off the bat is number one, get your diet dialed in. So you talked about carbs. So the first thing is as a macro percentage of nutrients is you wanna get your fat up. Most people screw up in ketosis because they go too high in protein. They’re eating like you know, 30-40% protein. It’s hard to do that much in protein unless you do two things wrong. Number one, you eat lots of lean meat and number two, you do excessive protein powders. So those are the 2 things. Now you can get away, going higher on protein if you’re doing a lot of resistance training, alright? But if you’re not doing a whole bunch of resistance training, you want your macros up around 60-70% fat as a pretty good starting point. So what I recommend is just throw your foods into a MyFitnessPal and if you’re using a Paleo template, so that means you’re gonna be getting most of your meats from animal products. Your carbohydrates, you’re gonna choose obviously more from a non-starchy vegetable sources. A really easy thing is you’ll typically be good around 20-30g and you can just throw in your carbohydrates, a cup of broccoli, a cup of spinach, a cup of kale, maybe you’re doing some asparagus, maybe you do another salad for dinner or lunch. Throw all the vegetables that you do in there, you’re probably find that you sit around 30g of carbohydrate once you factor out the—the fiber, 20-30 is pretty good unless you’re doing a ton of juicing or ton of veggies. You’ll probably be around 20-30 net carbs. That’s a pretty good place to be. So that’s a good starting point and then from there, depending on whether you wanna stay in ketosis—I like to—to keep myself around 40-70 carbs a day and I keep—I get my ketones up to .5 and I feel phenomenal–

Evan Brand:  So you’re—you’re–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  At around .5.

Evan Brand:  So you’re basically in some level of ketosis most days.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. Absolutely. And then like if you listen to guys like Jimmy Moore, Jimmy is around 1, maybe—maybe 1-2. And again, you don’t have to worry about ketoacidosis until you get to about 20. Ketacidosis is potentially what could happen to diabetics type 1 primarily and/or alcoholics that have cirrhosis, with that—they have messed up livers. Essentially ketoacidosis is when your insulin levels are high and your blood sugar’s high. Okay, that typically hard to do because when the insulin goes high, blood sugar goes low.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Alright, so insulin’s high. Blood sugar’s high in the bloodstream but what’s happening is we can’t get the—we can’t get the—the calories or the blood sugar into the cell so the cell’s starving and what happens is the body is trying to generate energy so it spits out a whole bunch of ketones.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Does that make sense?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so I was looking at the ingredients here. Basically what this is, it is the beta-hydroxybutyric acid, that’s literally what’s your supplement— supplementing with. That along with some medium train—medium chain triglycerides and then leucine, lysine and isoleucine. That’s it. And then erythritol, some Stevia, some color, things like that. So you’re literally just taking—you’re taking ketones. That’s what it is, right? The—the beta-hydroxybutyric is one type of ketone?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  Is that right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Correct. I wanna go back and correct myself. I misspoke. So regarding the ketoacidosis, it’s the insulin is low. Insulin’s low.

Evan Brand:  So you can’t deal with the blood sugar.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Blood sugar is high so you can’t get it–

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Remember insulin’s the lock or the key that goes into the lock. The—the keyhole is receptor site, whether it’s a GLUT4 key which is that’s allowing sugar into the muscle or whether it’s on the liver and an—various different GLUTs. So imagine the GLUT’s the lock and insulin’s the key. So you can’t use the key to get into the cell. So what happens is all the sugar accumulates in the bloodstream because insulin’s low. So everything I said before is correct except it’s because of low insulin. Think, right? Type 1 diabetics have an issue with low levels of insulin because their—their islets cells in their pancreas, the beta cells have been destroyed by autoimmune attack. So they can’t get that sugar in there, so the body’s freaking out. It’s saying, “Where the heck am I gonna get energy?” So it starts ramping out a whole bunch of ketones. Ketones have an acidic ash to it or an acidic foundation to it so it shifts the pH because of instead of being a nutritional ketosis at .5 mmol or 1 or maybe 2, they are 20-10 x higher and that shifts the pH down. When the pH goes down, they can go into a diabetic coma.

Evan Brand:  Wow. Yeah, I—you said that quickly otherwise, I probably would have caught that. That makes a lot more sense. So insulin’s low, sugar’s high. That’s when you don’t wanna do it and like the supplement says that you cannot use it with type 1 diabetics for that reason.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I—exactly. And I was listening to a lecture just yesterday talking on the topic and he did the same thing I just did and I—I got his bad habit from it. He said the exact thing I said the first time.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So I got the bad habit by osmosis, but we corrected it here. So think low insulin, high sugar, the cells are starving.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The body freaks out and it tries to go and generate a whole bunch of ketones but shifts the pH. Now how do we use ketones beneficially? So we can use exogenous precursors like we mentioned, okay? Obviously the diet’s gonna be foundational. Now for some people, there’s a couple of ways of doing it. You can live in ketosis. That can be great for some people. If you have cancer, lot of great studies especially over at Boston College, Dr Veech, NIH guy. He went to school—he studied under Dr Hans Krebs, I mean the guy invented the Kreb cycle, alright? He discovered it, which is how the body generates you know, energy via NA—NADH and FADH redox—redox reactions which then generate ATP in the—in the Kreb cycle as well as the electron transport chain, but this is how our body generates energy and this guy studied with this doctor that created or discovered this stuff. So moral of the story is this is another way the body can generate energy and ketones are really important part of the Kreb cycle and they are really important part of starving out cancer cells. So cancer’s primarily—primary fuel if you look at Otto—Otto Warburg or Otto Van Warburg, a German scientist in the 30s and 40s who got 2 Nobel prizes discovering this physiology around cancer cell metabolism and he found that cancer cells primarily survive on glucose and if you can starve the cancer cells of that metabolic fuel—remember it burns dirty—if we can use ketones, we can essentially starve that type of cell.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so—I mean, basically you and I both touch in to ketosis. Now I do do some sweet potatoes and things in the evening so I likely pull myself out of that so this is something that this is gonna depend on the person but you can touch in to ketosis—you do some carbs, don’t you? Do you do sweet potatoes with dinners?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I cycle in and out. I cycle in and out. Typically at dinners, I’ll do after a dinner as a treat. I’ll do a handful of berries and maybe some cream.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Or I’ll do some high quality, 90% dark chocolate that’s you know, organic and you know, obviously gluten-free. So it depends. Like this week I did buy some sweet potatoes so at one night, I’ll have that. I mean, you get different diets out there like a cyclical ketogenic diet.

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  There’s also Jason Seib’s stick on the AltShift Diet, which is I think a 3 days—I think it’s a 5-day low carb, 3-day high carb kinda stick as well. So there’s different things out there where you can cycle in and out and those I think tend to be really good for most people. If you’re more metabolically damaged, ketones, ketosis at that 20-30 induction phase can be pretty good. It depends. Some people I see if they’re in ketosis long-term will start to develop some of those hypothyroid symptoms, losing hair, hair loss, outer third eyebrow, cold hands, cold feet, mood stuff.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then would just add in just a little bit carbs, small amount, and they’re doing better, so–

Evan Brand:  That’s what I had to do.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so some people–

Evan Brand:  I crashed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Do better so I’m not dogmatic at all. There are people out there that do great on that diet and because they’re not clinically oriented, meaning they’re not working with patients that we are, they—they just think well, because they did good on it, the other person out there that’s having a bad response or not as good response must not be doing it wrong.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I’m sorry, must not be doing it right.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because they’re doing it wrong essentially. So we always just make sure the fat macros are up, the protein macros aren’t too high, and then just make sure the carbs are there and that’s a pretty good sign off the bat and then we can always measure it. Get to a .5 to 1. 1 is pretty good. Cut off. So we can customize it and then we can figure out. Okay, you’re at ketosis. You’ve been there for 2-3 weeks. You’re stabilized now. Okay, you’re already at a healthy weight. You’re feeling good. Your markers look good. Let’s just taper up some of those carbohydrates a little bit, just a little bit. And this is where it’s cool that you can play around with these exogenous ketones, the beta-hydroxybutyrate salts like the calcium and the sodium. This is great to try. Be careful though. Don’t make the mistake of adding these synthetic ketones and eating a whole bunch of sugar. The body is programmed when insulin goes up, typically ketones never should be there, right? Because think about it, right? Insulin has to be low for ketones to be high. Because if high insulin’s present, the body will block fatty acid synthesis. What are fatty acids? That’s the tree branch going into the tree chopper. Out comes the ketones, right? So we wanna keep insulin low so if we eat a whole bunch of sugar, take some exogenous ketones, insulin’s high, guess where those ketones are going, you know?

Evan Brand:  Well, hopefully it’s gonna help go into the mitochondria.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, if insulin’s high and sugar’s high, you’ll actually pee it out. So if you use exogenous ketones, you wanna keep the insulin low still.

Evan Brand:  So if you—so if you’re eating high sugar or you’re eating high carb and then you take ketones, you’re saying waste of money.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Waste of money. And again a lot of the marketings out there because frankly, a lot of these ketone companies, they don’t care if you do it right or wrong.

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because they’re getting—they’re getting paid either way.

Evan Brand:  Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Not saying that’s bad. There’s education that comes into play. So if you’re using exogenous ketones which I think can be great from a performance, neurological standpoint especially if you have issues with Alzheimer’s, things like that. That can be phenomenal because then if you have the right diet in place and then you add some ketones, it’s like bada-bing! You’re there. You know, we call it therapeutic ketone therapy. You know?

Evan Brand:  So basically, don’t waste your money. If you’re gonna do this thing then get the diet straightened out always but then get the—get the cyclical Ketogenic Diet or experiment with that first before you buy ketones.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Experiment.

Evan Brand:  That—that’s expensive. That’s $200 and that’s a—a way to waste it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you may not have to be you know, full out ketosis. You know, I sit around .5 to 1 and that feels pretty good. I think just spit out some ketones.

Evan Brand:  Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Get to a pretty good place. See if you can test it. Get down to .5 or 1. See how you feel. Stabilize and then taper in some carbs. You know, start off with a little bit of lower sugar, lower fructose fruit, and handful of berries. It’s a pretty good place and then you can always try adding in a little bit of safe starch, sweet potatoes, squash, yams, plantains. Do it at night. Because your body doesn’t need the extra sugar during the day because cortisol’s already there, mobilizing and conducting sugar out of the—out of the glycogen, out of the muscle tissue, or out of the liver. So the glucose is already going where it needs to go because of the high cortisol. Do your carbs at night where that cortisol isn’t as present.

Evan Brand:  This is fun.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, you having a good time here?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, this is fun.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Awesome.

Evan Brand:  Well, just because you know, there—there’s so many different ways to go about this and there’s never—I—I think when people download these episodes, they think there’s gonna be like a single and that’ll be all answer, and that’s never going to exist especially for this ketosis discussion here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Plus we’re clinicians, so if it were that easy, you know, every patient would be a home run, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So we have to put on our clinician cap, you know, so to speak. And we look at the diet, we customize it. So if you’re an endomorph, right? Larger, bigger, you know, wider hips, bigger belly, you know, those type of things, you put on fat easier–

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And it’s harder for you to burn, then you know, you’re gonna really benefit by starting out with a Ketogenic Diet and then customizing and then stack your carbs. When it’s time to stacking your carbs, stack your carbs on at night.

Evan Brand:  Here’s another thing I wanted to mention though, too, that we haven’t brought up yet. And you and I talked about Kalish’s talk I think a few weeks ago together, where if someone has a bigger waist and they have this excess body fat. Even if they go into a ketogenic approach, they may not lose weight because of those toxins that are stored in the fat cells could still disrupt the metabolism, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so the fat cells are a toxic reservoir for toxins essentially. A lot of our toxins go into the fat cell. They’re–

Evan Brand: So what do we do then if—if you’re going, you’re trying to go super low carb and yet you still just maintain your heavy weight, you cannot burn fat?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, that’s where seeing a good functional medicine practitioner helps so we’d look at organic acids. We would look at how you’re detoxifying via pyroglutamate and sulfate and a lot of these organic acids that look at phase 1 and phase 2 liver detoxification. Phase 1 is taking fat-soluble toxins, right? It’s already there. They’re lipid-soluble. I mean, they’re in the fat cell. We’re liberating them and turning them into water-soluble toxins primarily via B vitamins, antioxidants, and then we facilitate the transfer of these water-soluble toxins out the urine, out the stool, out the breath or skin, right?

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And we do that with sulfur amino acids, right? We’re supporting methylation and—N-acetylation, hydroxylation ,right? Glucuronidation, glutathione, all of these pathways that are shooting it out. So phase 1 is more B vitamin and antioxidant induced. Phase 2 is more sulfur amino acid induced. And then also some people because amino acids make carnitine, carnitine’s a really important compounds that shuttles fat into the mitochondria. It’s literally called the carnitine shuttle. You can Google it. It’s shuttling fat in the mitochondria to be burned so some people will see low carnitine. We’ll see some mitochondrial defects and then we’ll see some detox issues. So that can be something that we–

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Incorporate into someone’s metabolic functional medicine program to help enhance it. So we get the diet dialed in non-dogmatically. Again, if you’re overweight, default to a Ketogenic Diet. That’s pretty safe. A Ketogenic Diet on a Paleo template. Right? Atkins create the—or Atkins made that ketogenic term famous except he used a lot of crappy foods, you know, didn’t differentiate with soy protein, added aspartame and artificial sweeteners. Didn’t care about grass-fed or chemicals or pesticides or Roundup so he kinda stumbled on it by accident–

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because he was just looking at it from a sugar and carbohydrate standpoint. He didn’t look at it from the qualitative standpoint of phytonutrients and pesticides and chemicals and—and inflammatory foods and excitotoxins like MSG and aspartame. So we know more. So we kinda add like a—a Ketogenic-Paleo template on to it and then we have tools like the Precision Xtra by Abbott and get it on—I think get it on eBay and buy the strips on eBay. There’s a company out of Australia. You can get a much cheaper—they’re expensive. They’re like $1 or $2 a strip but if you buy them here, they’re like $2 to $3. So you can get them like 50% off. I bought like 100 strips and I just test my ketones a couple times a week to see where I’m at and I pretty much know where I’m at based on what I eat because I’ve tested so many meals. I see a pattern.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So if I’m eating like good, clean eggs or a good clean collagen shake with some good fats, MCT and butter in the morning, I’m sitting around .5.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I feel pretty damn good with that.

Evan Brand:  Yup, so I know we’re running out of the time but some of the benefits you can expect—I notice mental clarity goes up if I’m pushing towards ketogenic. Weight loss can happen which I don’t need to lose any weight but I am less hungry. I’m able to go little bit longer between meals. I don’t feel like I’m crashing like I was when I was doing more starch. There’s a few benefits for me. Did you wanna say anything on that part?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think you touched upon it really well. I think a lot of people will hear this especially if they’re medically oriented. People get confused between ketoacidosis and ketosis. So I already kind of touched upon the people that ketoacidosis happens to and typically you’re looking at over 20 mmol/L is gonna be what happens in ketoacidosis and ketosis, you’re gonna you know, .5, 1, that’s totally fine. Now there’s nutritional ketosis which is what we’re focusing on, right? We’re doing it by nutritionally eating an adequate amount of calories because you can go on ketosis by starving and fasting.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right? Because you still drive down your insulin levels because there’s no calories. If there’s no calories, remember insulin’s the door that opens up the cell for the calories to go in. Whether it opens up the mitochondria or the muscle or the fat cell, that’s dependent upon how much insulin is coming in. But you can lower insulin by just going low calorie. So you can be in ketosis via starvation, too. The difference is we’re doing it nutritionally, meaning we’re actually eating foods. They’re real whole foods and we’re getting enough calories so you’re body’s not gonna be eating away lean tissue.

Evan Brand:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Most people confuse it and they think, “Oh, you’re gonna be ripping up your body. You’re destroying your muscle.” It’s like—well, my body’s not stupid. It rather burn the nutrients that are in it versus taking away lean tissue, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so—so don’t starve. This is not starvation–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  They’re confusing the physiology.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, totally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  They’re confusing it and that happens all the time.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And it drives me nuts so people need to really understand ketoacidosis and nutritional ketosis, and they need to understand ketosis vs fasting vs ketosis vs adequate calories and also ketosis at the acidotic level because of cirrhosis or type 1 diabetes.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, I think that’s pretty good there. If you would have sum it up, what’s the take home, Evan?

Evan Brand:  Well, take home. Try it out. Make sure you’re eating enough food. It’s easy to undereat if you’re basically cutting out, not almost, not an entire food group but essentially, so make sure you are getting enough good fats, enough good proteins, your coconut oils, your avocados, your avocado oils, your good meats, your good veggies. You know, your leafy greens are excellent. Stay away from the chemicals. If you start to crash, if you notice your outer one-third eyebrows going away, if you notice hair loss, if you feel like you’re a little bit more sluggish, you feel like hands and feet are getting cold like you alluded to, get some tests run. You can get some blood panels run for thyroid. You could get your adrenals tested to see if you’re just tanked out. Maybe you can’t go super ketogenic. Maybe that puts an extra stress on the body and you’re—you’re just not ready for that right now. So make sure your adrenals are healthy. Make sure your gut’s healthy and I think you’re gonna be—you’re gonna be on your way to—to weight loss if that’s a goal which is why many people go to—to ketogenic approaches.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So who should do this? Cancer patients, Alzheimer’s patients, anyone with metabolic syndrome, right? Waist size 35 or bigger for a woman, 40 for a man. Blood pressure, you know, in the 140s or up. Any bit of inflammation, chronic pain, any of those symptoms. A good therapeutic trial of a Ketogenic Diet, Paleo style, Paleo template is a great starting point and again if you enjoyed this show and you’re applying the information and loving it, sharing is caring. Also give us a 5-star review. We appreciate it and click below this screen and you can help us out.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Evan, it’s been real, brother.

Evan Brand:  You, too. Take good care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You, too. Bye!

Evan Brand:  See ya! Bye!


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