Leaky Gut and Autoimmunity – Dr. J. Live Podcast #161

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand dive into a discussion about the link between gut infections and autoimmunity. Gain knowledge about leaky gut, how it occurs in the body and it’s connection to Hashimoto’s.

Explore the different stressors which affect gut health and contribute to a weakened immune system. Learn about Dr. Justin’s 6-hour template, which includes his expert recommendation regarding healing, nutrient and supplements.

In this episode, we cover:Leaky gut and autoimmunity

00:34   Leaky Gut and Autoimmunity Connection

04:05   GABA and the Blood Brain Barrier

06:48   Hashimoto’s and Gut Health

12:23   6-hour Template

22:40   Thyroid Health: T3, T4

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hello, ladies and germs! Dr. J in the house. Evan, how we doing, man? How was your Holidays? How’s your Thanksgiving?

Evan Brand: Holidays were great. Let’s dive in. I know we’ve got a short limited of time. But we’re doing this on the fly because this conversation of gut health and gut infections and autoimmunity is huge and hardly anyone is talking about this. Conventional doctors don’t have a clue about the link between gut infections and autoimmunity, so dude, let’s dive right in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That sounds phenomenal. So we talked about in the show, kinda chatting about leaky gut and autoimmunity, which is really important because leaky gut is kind of like one of the primary mechanisms of autoimmunity kinda starting, which is kind of gastrointestinal permeability cells in the gut called the tight junctions. They start to unzip, kinda like you unzip your coat on a hot day and undigested food particles can get in there in this kind of creates this uhm— cascade of reactions call molecular mimicry, where certain food proteins— the surface proteins on these foods are similar to surface proteins of the thyroid or the brain or the pancreas, the beta—the beta cells of the pancreas, whatever. So you have this kind of immune system getting primed to similar proteins in foods which then prime the immune reaction for the immune system. It starts attacking these tissues in the body. So that’s kinda one of the first defenses is this autoimmunity leaky gut, molecular mimicry and that while they gut’s leaky, you have undigested bacterial compounds also getting in there, too. And then kinda just perpetuate and windup that immune system. And then also make it prime to—for other infections that kind of slip in there because the immune system now has weaken. Other infections can slip in. And typically, we’re gonna have a lower stomach acid environment so you’re gonna have less sterility in the stomach coz that low pH really prevents a lot of bacterial and critters from growing. But now that pH is like, you know, it’s like walking over to the dirty picnic tables and normally you spray it down with maybe some bleach. Or let’s say in a healthy version, maybe a really good antimicrobial essential oil. But now, we don’t have that because of the stress from the gut.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. Now, Hashimoto’s for example, is probably most common autoimmune condition that we’re going to see and deal with and that probably you guys listening are aware of. Leaky gut has to take place for Hashimoto’s to happen. That’s one of the dominoes that happens. So you’ve got the leaky gut situation. You possibly got the gluten in the diet. You got the immune stress, which could be internal or external. So bad boss, bad spouse, bad relationships, bad job— those are kind of the big dominoes we see. And when you all those up together, that’s how you get autoimmune disease. It’s really just that simple.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And then we have people on the live chat here. And again, this is a great reason why you should subscribe to our YouTube channel—justinhealth. Uhm because we have these podcast going live as well and we’ve also incorporated other technology in the background to get a higher quality audio versions. So if you want better audio, you can subscribe to Youtube, but also check out our podcast uhm—Evan Brand, notjustpaleo and then beyond wellness radio myself. So just keep that in the back of your head. And then your question was—I just missed it. We talked about—Oh, yeah! Leaky brain. Leaky brain is connected as well coz we have these live questions coming in. And so we are multitasking like it’s no tomorrow. So leaky brain’s important because we have these called astrocytes or the brain blood or the blood brain barrier which is kind of the interplay between systemic blood and then the passing over to the brain. And we have the cells called astrocytes. And again, same thing, when we have gut lining integrity, it tends to affect integrity of the lungs, integrity of the sinuses, integrity of you know, vaginal wall area, urinary tract. So you have people that have gut issues—gut integrity issues. It almost always can cause sinus issues, brain fog, brain issues, UTI issues, bladder issues, right? So you have all of that mucous membrane barrier, it’s gonna be compromised throughout the body not just the gut. But the guts kind of that first major domino that falls and then everything else tends to follow along with it.

Evan Brand: What you think about the GABA test for the blood brain barrier, where you take like a 500 mg GABA and if it works and you get relaxed, that says you have a leaky brain. Do you agree with that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’m not sure I buy that because I’ve seen people that do—that are really healthy and that do well with GABA.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And they, you know, symptomatically, they’re doing pretty good. They’re eating well. Again, certain supplement companies have kinda put that out where they have a GABA challenge. They say, “Hey, GABA is this really big amino acid compound and it shouldn’t go through that blood brain barrier; therefore if it does, that means your major blood brain barrier is permeable.” I’m not sure I buy that. I think it’s something to keep in mind, something to try. I have a lot of patient that have gut issues and they’re sick and that use GABA or will only give them GABA and they don’t notice much benefit either.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, you know, how do you sparse that? That’s hard.

Evan Brand: I know. Who knows, man. That’s a good question.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Everyone tries to be a little bit trendy and nuance in this functional medicine field.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Because they wanna make a name for themselves.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And I get that from a marketing perspective, but just looking at the clinical application, I’m not sure there’s ton.  But, heck, if you have GABA and you want to try it and you get uh—benefits, that’s great. I notice a little bit of improvement with GABA. Like when I take it, I feel little but relax. I also do that with Ashwagandha as well. I feel it with magnesium. Someone chimed in and asked if magnesium can be taken with Ashwagandha. Yeah, sure. I’ve no problem with that.

Evan Brand: Works great.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hope everyone’s listening had a great Thanksgiving, too.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Tesa wants to know, “Have you reversed your Hashimoto’s, Dr. J, by healing the gut?”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, so we have to be careful when we say reversed, right? So have we decrease the inflammation? Have we address underlying issues that made people susceptible to having autoimmune attack? And we—can we lessen those and decrease them to the point where we are no longer symptomatic because we have the inflammation down or quench enough? Yes. I’m just very careful because you know, eyes in the skies and people listening in they’re— they’re looking for that the cure the cure-all word, right? We just got to be careful. We don’t cure anything. We support the body’s ability to—we support the underlying stressors that cause the issue to begin with. And we support the underlying systems that weren’t functioning well. And then the body can start to get these symptoms under control because the symptoms are just a manifestation of the symptoms— the systems not working. Symptoms occur because systems aren’t working. Systems breakdown because of underlying stressors. As functional medicine doctors, we come in, we fixed the underlying stressors, we support the systems that aren’t working and then the body starts to heal itself, right? The body’s on autopilot. We just got to get the stressors in the systems work. If the system’s working, then get the stressors out of the way.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. So you had some— you had some gut bugs and things going on, do you care to talk about your story for a minute with the – Hashimoto’s?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I have—I have a low level of Hashimoto’s kinda in the background, I had elevation antibodies TPO and thyroglobulin antibodies and you know, I had some adrenal stress going on. And I just really worked on fixing the gut issues, which I had a handful parasites—Blasto, uhm— yeast, significant yeast overgrowth and H. pylori. Addressing those, fixing nutrient issues to help with the antibodies, fixing the digestion, fixing gut bacteria balance is of course working on stress reduction, sleep, all those important diet and lifestyle things. And again, the antibodies for me are just still slightly elevated, but there they’re in a range where you know, functionally my thyroid is not beaten up to the point where I need any thyroid hormone. My TSH is in a pretty good place and my T3 levels are pretty good. I actually have to go on for test real soon. So, yeah, I mean it’s possible to—to address the stressors and the system dysfunction to the point where you may not— you can call yourself cure. We just won’t call you cure for me, a functional medicine perspective.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Agreed. I need to get my thyroid panel run to. You’ve been pushing me to do it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. You should.

Evan Brand: I need to do it. I mean you and I both have had these infections. I had H. pylori as well. I had a Crypto, Giardia and yeast and Pseudomonas Aeruginosa.  So, you know, that’s a fun thing about Justin and I. We both had all the things that we deal with in the clinic. So when you guys are looking to work with somebody, it’s— to me it’s a lot more honorable if you’ve had somebody that’s been in the trenches themselves, where we had to fix us to keep going to help other people. I think that’s always pretty cool. Uhm— what else I know we would have limited time, but what else should we mention here about kinda this autoimmunity piece, the gut piece. We mentioned the leaky gut, we mentioned some of the triggers just in a roundabout way. So Candida, bacterial infections, parasites, H. pylori, low stomach acid, gluten in the diet, dairy, possibly eggs, other food sensitivities. These could all contribute to that permeation of the gut barrier; therefore, causing the situation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred Percent. So, let me just kind of answer some of the things that you’re talking about while injecting some of the live questions we get. That’s the reason why the show is so unique compared to other shows coz we are off-the-cuff. This is the real deal here. So some patients are talking about having a lot of mucusy stools, right? And uhm— wanting to know where they should go for help, right? Of course, I recommend coming to see either myself or Evan, but typically one, we want to make sure food allergens aren’t driving this, right? Number two, we want to make sure we have enough digestive support on board to help those foods be broken down enough. So if there’s fat maldigestion issues, of course, adding in more bile salts or more lipolytic enzyme, right? Lipase— things like that. Uh— protease—proteolytic enzymes, right? These are all really important. And then, of course, once we can have the deck kinda dialed in, if foods are still a problem even with that, we may make them more palatable. We may go with more crockpot kinda GAP specific carbohydrate kind of eating template, where the foods are just easy—more processed via cooking, they aren’t raw, they are peeled or mashed. We’re decreasing salicylates and phenols and potential gut irritants so those foods can be consumed better. And then, of course, we’re gonna look deeper at the hormones because hormones have a major effect on inflammation and energy. And a lot of people that have gut issues, their guts are inflamed, we have to support the inflammation of the gut lining. And then, the big one is getting rid of the infections.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that’s where you know, we’re probably go next.

Evan Brand: (laughs) Yes. You’re right. So uh—Cent50 here, who asked the question. Yeah, the loose, mushy stools, I mean that was me. I had Cryptosporidium, I had Giardia, I had H. Pylori, I had bacterial overgrowth. Until my gut issues were addressed, just FYI, I had IBS for 10 or 15 years of my life and conventional doctors had no solutions for my—my stools. And it wasn’t until actually cleared out the infections that my bowels and my stools became normal again. And so, yeah, you got to get yourself tested. Justin and I run several different companies. Uh—stool testing just depending on you know what—what we’re looking at. But, yeah, get a comprehensive stool test. Your conventional doctor may be able to order through your insurance, if you tell them you want diagnostic solutions Lab, it’s unlikely. You probably have a functional medicine guy like us to run it for you. But either way, once you get the diagnostic tool, you can fix this pretty quick.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There’s a lot of healing nutrients. So like, when we work with the patient, we kinda follow that 6-hour template— template that I’ve created over the last decade or so. There’s a lot of ones that are out there— three hours, four hours. In my opinion, a lot of them stink and they’re the wrong order. So the six that I’ve created and began to follow as well, in my opinion, is the exact clinical order which I follow things. So the first hour is removing the bad foods. And again, it’s not cookie-cutter because that maybe just getting someone from a standard American diet to a Paleo template. That may be taking someone from a Paleo template to an autoimmune template. Maybe someone on an autoimmune template and the Paleo template taking them to a GAPs or specific carbohydrate diet or low FODMAP template. I had patient last week who’s been Paleo for three or four years—chronic pain, chronic issues, chronic mood issues, chronic sleep issues. We took him from a Paleo template to an autoimmune-Paleo template and all of the symptoms went away in one week.

Evan Brand: That’s it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: This is someone that’s like already been on point for a long time and we just pulled out a few foods. So we have those— that kind of progression because you’d be surprised, the smallest things that we do have a huge effect. And it’s like, whoa! you would’ve thought I would have created the awesomeness protocol ever and found a you know, this hidden infection that everyone missed and got rid of it for that kind of improvement to happen. But sometimes it happens, we’re just removing some food. So, first, I remove the foods, second, I replace enzymes, acids, digestive support, bile salts, too. Third hour is gonna be repairing the gut lining. It could be also repairing the thyroid and adrenals and sex hormones, too. Fourth hour is removing infections. That’s where we go after— bacteria, parasites, uhm—fungal overgrowth. Those kinda things. We may even go after co-infections future podcast on that soon enough. Fifth hour, repopulating or reinoculating probotics. Some of these nice and beneficial bacteria. They’re transient. They only hang out for a month or so and pass on. So, getting some of that it in there periodically is helpful. Sixth hour is retest. We want to make sure infections are gone. And maybe even address family members too to make sure they are not being passed back and forth you know, playing hot potato.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. Riley asked a question about—he said, “Evan is your IBS completely healed now after addressing anything?” Uhmm—kind of a confusing question about addressing anything. Yeah, I don’t have IBS anymore. I’m infection free, no more H. pylori, no more parasites, no more bacterial overgrowth, no more yeast overgrowth and I feel good and feel completely normal, which was an amazing thing because after so long, you know, it took me to be so long to get here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And with your situation, right? Like if you start eating bad foods again and your immune system got compromised, you may have another critter or two that pops back. You may have some inflammation from the food and such. And then those symptoms, they start coming back, right? So it’s not like a cure, like, “Hey, you have scurvy. Here’s vitamin C.” And then as long as the vitamin C is there, you’re good forever, right? It’s like, “Hey, there may be other stressors that may cause the systems to weaken again and those IBS symptoms start to occur, right?”

Evan Brand: Oh, Totally! Yeah. I mean I could go— I could go out to a restaurant and get some type of contaminated food and all the sudden creates a leaky gut situation. Maybe I pick up a gut bug, maybe I was eating while stressed during a week and I didn’t chew my food good. And then I picked up a parasite and have to start all over again. So, yeah, definitely, you know, you could always backtrack. You’re—you’re never permanently in a good place.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And again, one thing I see out there on Facebook, and I see it marketed, and it’s–  I have to call—I’m not  gonna call anyone out directly—

Evan Brand: No, come on. Do it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ll call out the concept. But lots of people, they’re like, “You gotta heal leaky gut. Here’s a gut healing program.”

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And if you look at it, a lot of times, you know, it’s bone broth or just a lot of healing nutrients and a lot of probiotics, right? And maybe a little diet change. But if we go look at the six hours, what are they really doing? They’re doing the third hour, maybe a little bit of the first, maybe a little bit of the second, maybe a little bit of the fifth, right? They’re kinda skipping around. They don’t have a system and how it’s being integrated a lot of times. And I would say 99% of the time, it ignores going after and getting the infections fixed. Totally ignores it. Because you know, these people are recommending a general program to like thousand people at once in a huge kind of a webinar kind of style, right? Well, how do you get all the types of testing and customize everything in that format? You can’t. So it’s a very general kinda overview approach. And in my opinion, it’s going help some people, which I think is great. It’s admirable. But it’s also gonna  a miss a lot of people and those people that don’t get help may lose faith in functional medicine or say, “This is not for me.” So I’m just kinda calling that out because think about it, right? If the root cause of what’s going on is an infection component and you’re doing let’s say the first, second, third, fifth alright but you’re not getting rid of the infection. Well that’s like me giving you this healing aloe, right? You get a sunburn, you come back from the beach, I give you this aloe, right? The underlying cause of the sunburn is the— is the sun. And then you go back out the next day and you get sunburned again and I just give you more aloe. That’s the equivalent of what a lot of these people are doing. Well, just have some more bone broth, have some more of glutamine, have some more of this healing compound for your gut lining. So we got to get to the root cause. A lot of people are just being very general out there. And you know, the listeners of our show will get it and say, “Hey, I see that the missing piece there.” And that’s why we have those six hours that way coz then you can look at it and you can say, “Hey, this is a really specific way we go about addressing things here.”

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well said, man. And that’s the food is medicine, people. And we love the food as medicine people, but that’s why you know, we pursued functional medicine because the food is just the first step, right? It’s just one pillar of the house. It’s not gonna hold the house by itself as a single column. And also, I want to mention the order—the order of operations. If somebody just go straight to bone broth and probiotics and L-glutamine, that’s the wrong order. And sometimes people get worse. They’ll come to us and say, “Oh, Justin and Evan—“

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Evan Brand: “I took XYZ probiotics coz I heard it on a podcast or a blog and I felt terrible and I had a flare up of my condition. Can you explain what happened?” Yes, if things are just terrible in the gut,. sometimes you have to hit the reset button. You can’t immediately just add in all these probiotics and expect it to work. Sometimes we have to fix the balance first and eradicate the bad guys before the good guys can come back in.  So that’s why the order of operation is just a second when Justin said it’s so important. And this may explain why you’re spinning your wheels even though you’re all—you’re doing everything about the Paleo gurus are saying to do.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. We just want to make sure everyone’s educated. I mean, we have some people out here, they’re chiming about, “Hey, I really want a functional medicine doctor but I don’t have the—the money for it.” Well, guess what? The best thing that you can do right now is be listening to our podcast coz all this information is free.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We’re providing tens and thousands of dollars for free information off of people and I get messages all the time. “Hey, made a couple of these changes or recommendations and my autoimmune condition for 10 years is gone.” Right? I didn’t cure him.  I promise. I didn’t cure him, right? The body just heals itself, right? We got to say that as our disclaimer. But that’s you know, what’s that worth. When someone is you know, seeing a rheumatologist for 20 years on lots of expensive medication that’s tearing up their gut and their body and creating more symptoms than they’re actually helping. What’s that worth? So just utilize the pickup as much of the free intel as much as possible. And then you know, allocate some savings or HSA or flex spending. So if you want to dig in deeper, that’s an option. But utilize as much of the free stuff as possible because the diet is the foundation.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 50% is gonna be the diet so work on that first. Once you max that out, and you’re seeing some decent results, then you’d want to go in deeper. You can reach out, for sure.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And you can contact likely so. You can contact your conventional doc and try to get some stuff run through insurance. But it’s likely that they don’t have accounts with these functional labs and they likely just aren’t going to do it. Fut if you’re really lucky, you’ve got a really good M.D., you may be able to push push push push at least get the lab so you have the data. Now what you do with the data? Well then maybe that’s where you come to a functional medicine guy that can help in terms of creating a protocol. But getting the data should not be impossible.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And a lot of functional medicine docs that do a podcast or websites, I find that they take information, they wrap it up and they try to make people feel so confused where they walk away from the podcast or the video, being like, “What the hell just happened? What I do now ?” And they walk away feeling less certain. I want to make sure no one walks away from any podcast or video I do, gaining more certainty. And at least walking away with one action item that they can add into the repertoire of whether it’s a lifestyle or a supplement or just a different perspective on the6 hoir healing so they get better and they feel more confident.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I watch a couple of functional medicine videos like over the weekend and they were like hour-long videos I made it through 10 minutes. And I thought, “This is not gonna help me at all.” So I decided to turn it off. So let’s do it, let’s do our action steps and summary here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So of course, we have our six hours, right? So everyone listening kind of our general feedback is gonna be a Paleo autoimmune template to start. And again, depending on where you’re at, that maybe really a lot of— really overwhelming for you, cutting out grains, legumes, dairy and primarily having healthy fats, proteins, uhm more veggies and fruit instead of starch. And having healthy fats like you know, if we’re doing a Paleo, maybe a little butter or ghee. If we’re going fully AIP, no nuts, no seeds, no dairy. Just coconut, Olive oil, may be avocado oil, some healthy animal fats. And that will be a good starting point for people. And then again, an AIP or an SCD or autoimmune diet, again, I’m just kinda laying out the Paleo template to start coz that’s probably the easiest buy in without pre qualifying anyone. I would say that after that, at least getting some digestive support going there. And again, you know, the ones that we formulated, we recommend the most coz we’ve put our stamp of approval. High-quality HCl or enzymes. In my line, it’s HCl supreme or enzyme synergy or I’ll add in the liver supreme for extra bile support for digest energy. And Evans line—Evan has a similar products as well. Uhm— so that’s a good starting point there. And then seeing where you’re at, I think is the next step coz there may be infections, there may be other testing that has to go in deeper. So I think if you can get that, that’s number one. And then I think if you can just make sure the hydration component and the sleep component is dialed in next, that’s a good second step. And that gives most people of really good you know, path to go down and if people are listening, they’ve already done that and they’re like, “what’s next?” well, that’s where I think you’d want to reach out and do a little bit more testing because that’s what I think the infection component and/or the hormone component and/or the nutriend malabsorption component from the infection could be the next vector we’d really have to put up in our sites, so to speak.

Evan Brand: I’m gonna address one comment here and then I’ll bring up a question then we could uh—we could wrap it up. Leslie mentioned the diet’s the foundation which kinda sucks no more pigging out in the middle of the night. The good thing is that could be related to infections. I mean for me, for example, when I had parasites, I would get these food cravings that just didn’t make sense and it wasn’t me. It’s these bugs. They are stealing your nutrients, they want food so they’re cannibalizing your muscle tissue and when you’re eating, they’re messing up your ability to digest especially coz I had H. pylori. My stomach acid levels were lower. I was basically hungry all the time and I was losing weight. Getting to like a scary point of weight loss. So really, the diet is not too hard once you just address your gut bugs, that— the whole like binging type thing on food, it really doesn’t happen once your gut is healed, once your adrenals and your thyroid are helped out and your blood sugar’s more stable. It’s not an issue. I mean you could fasted for a long time and feel stable. You shouldn’t have to get hungry or go on a crisis stage. Justin, a question for you. Uh—some doctors say T3 doesn’t matter; they don’t test it on Thyroid labs. The person’s taking T3 now slowly increasing. Would you be lowering T4 when adding this?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, I would typically be adding more than likely a T4, T3 put together so there’s gonna be a combination of both. Most doctors don’t care about uhm—T3 because the major pharmaceutical companies, Abbott’s the big one, that has a patent on Synthroid is a synthetic T4. It’s easier to monitor uhm— giving a T4 the half-life’s five days, so it’s really easy. It’s not like a T3, which could potentially have more side effects. Uhm—and it’s patentable, right? It’s the basically tetraiodothyronine with the sodium salt on it. So that’s how they get the patent to it. Uhm—again, they don’t m__ it because that’s just not what they do. They give you the T4, they get the TSH back in range. All your thyroid symptoms could still be present. Cold hands, cold feet, anxiety, mood issues, hair thinning, you know, gut here fitting things you know, gut stuff, constipation all could still be there, but if the TSH is in range, they’re happy. They checked off the list, you’re gone. So that’s where you got a dig in deeper. You got a look at the T4, T3 conversion. You got to look at the autoimmunity. You got a look at the nutrients. You gotta look at the adrenal conversion, the gut conversion connection and the liver detox conversion connection, too.

Evan Brand: Yup. Yup. Should you ignore TSH? No. It’s definitely worth factoring TSH in. You just don’t want to use that as the end-all be-all only marker. But you— but when you have the free T3 and the reverse T3, the TPO, the TG antibodies kinda all the stuff we run, the TSH makes a lot more sense when you got a full picture.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. We like to keep TSH in the equation and look at sometimes people come in with the TSH that’s perfect, but their T4 T3 conversion sucks. And then what do you do? You know when you’re treating the TSH or are you treating the actual patient? So we’ll try to increase thyroid hormones, see if symptoms change and we’ll try to support HPT access communication with specific herbs. And of course, stress modulation and getting infections— getting rid of infections coz that can really mess up the HPT access, the Hypothalamus Pituitary Thyroid connection.

Evan Brand: Yup. For sure. Uh—Leslie and a couple other comments about you know, where to go next? Well, I mean, you know, if people may say, “Oh, we’re biased.” But the answer is get tested. Our philosophy is “Test, don’t guess.” So if you’re confused, you’ve got symptoms that don’t make sense, get tested. That’s the first step. You can look at adrenals, thyroid, gut, get all the puzzle pieces laid on the table. That way you’re not just buying random supplements that you might not actually need. We’ve seen so many people with 20 and 30 supplements that they’re taking and they still feel terrible. And we cut that down to five supplements because it’s based on labs and all of a sudden people get better. So you know, save up your money for that. Maybe you don’t go buy the next newest supplement you hear about. Maybe you— you focus on investing into some testing first.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: And you can check it out on Justin’s site. It’s Justinhealth.com You can look at the supplements, the labs on there. Same thing on my site, Evanbrand.com and we’re happy to help. So, feel free to reach out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And also, couple of people asked about Dr. Gundry’s The Low Lectin Protocol. I think it’s the plant paradox. Again, my thing is if you’re just going to a Paleo template, you’re gonna cut a lot of those lectins out. If you actually cook some of the plants, some of the starches,  some of the vegetables and lower the lectins even more, if you still have a lot of gut issues, upgrading it to an autoimmune protocol, you decrease lectins more. If we still have issues and we can move to a specific carbohydrate or GAPS protocol and we decrease lectins even more. So it just depends on where you’re at cooking knocks a great chunk of that out and just going to a Paleo template, where we’re cutting out grains, legumes, dairy and focusing more on non-starchy veg, uhm— lower glycemic, low sugar fruits and safe starches that aren’t grain-based, you’re gonna have a huge effect and grains, where most of the lectins and irritants come from. So again, that— my opinion matches people making things a little bit more complicated than they have to be.

Evan Brand: Marketing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: I mean, he’s done a good job that book is spread.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. It has gone viral. Everyone asked me about it all the time. I can’t get a go of a— one day without a patient asking me about it. So I have to follow it. I think I found it on fast reads on Amazon. So I got a—like uhm—abridged version of it that I’m siphoning through.

Evan Brand: Nice.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ve got a couple of services where they do these summaries. And it’a great.  I mean I get 90% of the information.

Evan Brand: Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Suck it up in a half hour and I’m like, “Oop, got it!” That’s it. On to the next one. Well, any other questions you wanted to answer here, Evan?

Evan Brand: I think that’s everything. I think that’s all we can—we can chat on today and we’re gonna do a podcast soon on co-infections. We’re gonna talk about Lyme, Bartonella and Babesia Uh—Justin and I, I mean, we’ve literally got the books like right here that we’re—we’re diving into.  We wanna make sure we’re the most educated and current up-to-date with our information before we broadcast to you guys. So make sure you hit subscribe on Justin’s YouTube channel while you’re at, hit subscribe. And uh—we’ll be back again soon.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And one last thing. Patient asked here—person asked here on the chat list, uhm—“How do you—how do you choose your functional medicine doctor? How do you trust them?” He said, “I can’t trust them. How do I choose them?” Well, number one, I think they should have some kind of content out there whether its video, audio and/or blog post where you resonate with their information. Like their philosophy, their information, you should resonate. I find most patients are the biggest reason why they don’t get better is because, number one, compliance, and number two, they’ve been burnt and the past or they failed in the past and therefore they’re kind of priming their subconscious to fail again. So they don’t follow through and they’re off to the next one other, you know, they’re making a 180 move in can’t see someone else because some little thing happened. They’re not following through enough. So I think keeping—one, making sure you choose someone based on their philosophy and the information and making sure you resonate at an emotional level and just a logical level. Here’s the plan, generally speaking, right? And then number two, making sure you’ve given enough time and then follow through uh—for it to work.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. I’ll address— address this last question, then we’ll roll here. Uh—Is it common to have to go through a few rounds of infection killing protocols? Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It can.

Evan Brand: You can. It took me a couple of rounds to go through, some herbs to knockout things coz I have multiple infections. When you’re trying to kill five or six or seven things at once, yeah. I can’t take multiple rounds. Why is that? Depends on the person’s immune system health or stress levels, how long they’ve had infections, the amount of damage that’s there, how much inflammation is there, are they sleeping well, do they have a good diet. You know, there’s million factors to answer why that— why that could be. Hope that helps.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great.

Evan Brand: Andrea is asking a question about his father’s prostate cancer. PSA levels are rising rapidly. Can we cast opinions or advice?

Evan Brand: I can’t. Justin?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s about thyroid, it’s about uhm— prostate issues?

Evan Brand: Yeah. Prostate. Prostate cancer this drug—Enzalutamide had been recommended for father’s prostate cancer PSA levels are rising rapidly. Can you cast opinions or advice?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, let me describe– I have one formula here that’s been helpful. Yeah. I have one compound here that I’ve been using here, just I had a couple of supplement companies reach out and I’m using it. It’s the pomegranate extract, and the flower pollen extract and its cranberry extract. So cranberry, pomegranate and flower pollen. This is an excellent support. Lot of research behind those extracts as well. Lycopene is phenomenal, getting adequate levels of selenium 200 mics a day is phenomenal, enough zinc as well is phenomenal saw palmetto’s great. These are excellent compounds that help. Lycopene is phenomenal as well. Again, the diet has to be in place. You want to get the lifestyle things going and again, these things don’t grow overnight. They probably taken decades to kind of move. So coffee and Coffee enemas may also be helpful to kind of early push detox in a faster more acute kind of way. But some  couple of compounds that I mentioned are phenomenal and wouldn’t hurt getting them on board in the meantime.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And look at my podcast I did with the lady named Dr. Nasha Winters.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: She did a book that’s called, “The Metabolic Approach to Cancer” She— she had cancer herself and she’s been holistically supporting people with cancer for about 20 years. So uh— look up Nasha Winters and uh look up her book and you could implement some strategies there hopefully.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Also, get the insulin levels under control. Make sure fasting insulin is five or below at least. That’s important because insulin is gonna cause a lot of cells to grow and then also making sure xenoestrogen exposure is mitigated, right? Don’t drink out of plastic bottles, avoid pesticides and GMO’s and glyphosate and Roundup. These are chemicals that you’re gonna get from conventional foods. Obviously, eat organic, right? Pasteur-fed meats. Again, these things— I shouldn’t have to repeat them, but I just can’t assume that everyone knows these stuff.

Evan Brand: They don’t. Not everyone does. So, yeah, keep repeating it and keep preaching. And I think that’s all the questions. So we did— we did really good. That was fun.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I heard a quote back. It’s a quote from the 1940s, where Joe DiMaggio was interviewed and they said that Joe said, “We noticed that you sprint on and off the field every single time at full speed no matter what.” And he said, “Well, there may be someone coming out to see me for the first time ever that seeing me play the way I’m playing and I wanna play at 100% every time.” And then maybe some people that are coming out for the first time seeing us play here, and we want to make sure that they get that information that we may assume that other people uh— may have, right? The equivalent will be like us jogging on the field, so to speak, if we just assume that.

Evan Brand: Yup.  Well said. Well, reach out if you need help. Justinhealth.com You can schedule with Justin. Evanbrand.com if you’d like to schedule consults with us. We should have some availability in the next 3 to 6 weeks or so. So just take a look and  we’re happy to help you soon as we can.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, by the way, I’m adding in the Mimosa Pudica as well. So I’ll be reporting back on that in the next couple weeks. I think you as well Evan. So we’ll chat about that.  Again, I just got that in stock. That’s the Para-1 in my store. I think you have it in your store as well. So, we’ll put that in the show links, too. So that’s a cool new herb that we’re working on. We have a couple other herbal compounds in the mix that we’re using for different types of co-infections that we’re researching uhm—in the background, too.

Evan Brand: Awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey, Evan, great chatting with you, man. You have an awesome day. We’ll chat soon.

Evan Brand: You too. Take care

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.

Evan Brand: Bye.


References:

https://justinhealth.com/products/para-1/

https://justinhealth.com/products/betaine-hcl-supreme/

https://justinhealth.com/products/liver-supreme/

https://justinhealth.com/products/enzyme-synergy/

https://www.mykidcurescancer.com/nasha-winters/

 

Hacking the Holidays – Dr. J Live Podcast #160

Dr. Justin Marchegiani discusses different options, substitutions and modifications that can be made during the holiday season. Learn about what ingredients to use in some of the traditional Thanksgiving dishes including the turkey, stuffing and gravy that can help to still improve your health. 

Gain insight on the different modifications and options that you can use for some of your desserts so you can still indulge without having to feel guilty afterwards. Also, learn about some other cool options including meal timing, fasting, exercise and alcohol intake for a healthier you during this holiday season.Healthy Holiday Recipes

In this episode, we cover:

01:49   Grain-free holiday meal

03:01   Enzyme Support

05:55   Desserts Options

10:36   Timing Recommendations and Alcohol

15:00   Exercise

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, everyone! It’s Dr. J here.  Evan, Happy Holidays, man! We got a short Thanksgiving Day week. I love turkey day, man. Some time with the family, really good eating. Are you excited too?

Evan Brand: I am and I’ve got blue skies here which is very unusual for this time of year. We’ve got sunny every single day this week. So I’m super grateful for that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. Yeah, it’s a great time of the year. It’s uh— important year, time of the year to be really grateful and to be extra uh— particular in all the things that we have to be thankful for. Coz there’s a lot of things but it’s easy to be so focused on everything it’s not there. So we got to really focus on all the things that are there. So couple that is just how about, just some really good Intel that we can use to hack our holidays. Meaning we can still indulge in feel good and connect with our family members but not go into a food coma and feel like absolute crap. What do you think about that?

Evan Brand: Agreed. Yeah. A lot of our clients recommend we do this subject because they feel deprived if they’re doing AIP or some type of dietary approach. They feel like that we’re the bad guys and we’re making their holidays not as fun. But that doesn’t have to be the case.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. So, couple of things if you look at Thanksgiving, it can totally be Paleo, right? We have like basically the centerpiece in the Thanksgiving Day meal is the turkey, right? Awesome. Especially if we can go after the darker meat. That’s gonna be excellent. Good fats, right? Try to buy an organic or at least a Pasteur-fed turkey. It costs a little bit more but the nutrients are to be much higher, right? So you get good fats and proteins there. That’s the kind of a starting point. And then after that, you control your sides. So most people want mashed potatoes and maybe squash which you know, I’m okay doing a little bit more starch in the holidays. I’m okay with that.  It’s better than doing, let’s say a grain-based stuffing, that’s number one. Number two, we try to substitute for the things that we typically have grains. What’s gonna have grains? Well, typically, your gravy is gonna be thickened with flour so we do a gravy that’s gonna be a carrot and celery based and we thicken it with coconut flour if we do it. And we use the actual uhm— turkey stock from the actual turkeys. That’s a huge way to get to the stuffing, I mean the gravy going. And then the stuffing there’s typically some good stuffing recipes out there where we do a celery and carrot-based stuffing and it’s totally grain-free and it taste phenomenal. So, off the bat, you can have your starches. I’m okay with that. Number two, you have the gravy. Because the gravy kinda goes on everything. So if your gravy isn’t too good, you can really mess everything up coz you just basically coating everything with thickened uh—turkey giblets and flour. And then uhm—then after that, you have I mentioned your starches and then after that you can do cranberry sauce, really, you know, super Paleo. You can do like, I’ll do green beans and I’ll cut up some bacon, I’ll layer that on there, too. Uhm—those are kinda my big things off the bat and of course, a really good turkey. We’re gonna smoke our turkey this year. We typically use our smoker this time of the year. Any other thoughts, Evan, off the bat for your? Just with the Thanksgiving Day meal?

Evan Brand: Well, my thoughts are you got me hungry but besides that—<laughs>

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: <laughs>

Evan Brand: But besides that, the enzyme piece.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: You and want to talk about enzyme.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: So let’s go into that. So one’s that you and I were talking about off-air was one from designs for health. It’s called allerGzyme. And this is more specific to people that if they’re just going to go off the rails, they are going to do or get it possibly get exposed maybe a cross-reactive issue with dairy or egg or soy or gluten or casein peanuts, things like that. You can take the specific enzymes. They’ve got like a patented version they call it what, Glutalytic in there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: It is supposed to be pretty helpful. And they’ve got bromelain. Way but it’s a very, very super high dose bromelain which is a pineapple enzyme. It’s a really good enzyme. So there’s that. And then you and I both have our own custom digestive enzyme formulas that I say those are the best nutritional insurance policies that you can bring with you like a little glass jar or something.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Especially the fact that people forget that I uhm— having a meal like that is gonna be stressful not necessarily because it’s bad because obviously we’re gonna try to make the substitutes. We’re not gonna focus on eliminating. We’re gonna focus on substituting.  So we have the most healthiest options possible but because we’re probably gonna eat such a ton of food, it’s going to be a lot for our digestive system to handle. So we’re gonna really utilize more enzymes and more HCl and maybe even some bile salts to really optimize our ability to actually break it down.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I love it. I’ve got a small little old honey jar that my wife just keeps in her personnel and so if we go out to restaurant or if we got to family member, I’m just gonna pull out those enzymes and popp them down. So that’s can be my strategy and I think everybody who is dealing with bloating, gas, indigestion, a lot of these common symptoms heartburn, you’ve got that excessive heaviness feeling.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you already got those symptoms and it’s not even Thanksgiving yet, then you’re a person who needs extra care when it comes to using enzymes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. So we talked about the meal. We talked about maybe the potatoes and/or the sweet potatoes or the squash. I’ll typically put some extra cinnamon on my squash, too, which is great for blood sugar. And the blood sugar and the insulin kina receptor sites that which is good. I talked about the green beans. I talked about how to maximize the gravy because the gravy is one of those things that’s gonna be layered on everything. So if you can fix the gravy component— and we’ll have in the show notes some Paleo uhm— gravy recipes so we’ll make sure we get some Paleo recipes in the notes.  Uh—we’ll make sure we get some stuffing recipes. Coz those are gonna be the the big— the big things—the gravy and the stuffing. Almost everything else, you can dial it in. The turkey’s pretty good. You can do really good cranberry sauce, you can do uhm— squash, you can do sweet potatoes, you can do regular potatoes or any other sides that we’re missing.

Evan Brand: Yeah. You hit the green beans.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: Sometimes peas, sometimes carrots you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Evan Brand: I think honestly, if you’re eating real food and you just always think, “Am I eating real food?” you’re gonna be just fine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Then a couple of things—let’s go to desserts pretty fast. So we’re just kinda laying out the meal options or the meal substitutes, I should say, and then we’ll talk about little hacks that you can incorporate, too. So, off the, my Paleo Apple Crisp is something that I utilize a lot. I actually have it made once a week and it’s basically just a combination of the crust, which is gonna be coconut shreds, pecans and walnuts, kinda crushed up. And it’s gonna be kinda layered over some Granny Smith apples that are cut up. And the Granny Smith apples are basically mixed with butter. And they’re also gonna have a little bit of cinnamon on them and then we also have a little bit—

Evan Brand: I need this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: .. a little bit of organic palm cane sugar. And we like the organic palm cane coconut sugar because it’s got a glycemic index of 15. So it goes into your bloodstream a little bit slower and we try to use the least amount possible. So what I recommend is put the smallest amount whether it’s like uhm an eight of a cup or something in there. And just kinda glaze it and then mix it up. And then try a couple before you know, layer all the nuts and cook it. And then just see if it’s at the sweetness you want. So I don’t need a lot. I just put a very, very small amount. Once I have it, you know, typically, an eighth of the cup or sixteenth of a cup, a very—typically, I just glaze it. I don’t even h measure it. I just gently glaze it over so very small amount. And then once I have it to taste, then I pretty much put uhm—then it’s mixed with butter, of course, right? And then I put that topping right on top and there and then 350 for 30 to 45 minutes till the apples are nice and soft. And then you’re pretty much good to go.

Evan Brand: That sounds delicious. Did you invent that recipe or is that something you found?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: No, I invented that one. That’s a good one. And then if you want mix it up, too, you want to make it more like a cake, you can do uhm—a tapioca and arrowroot flower and then typically you just add the arrowroot flour in with the apples, typically, half a cup to cup each. And then that kind of gives that more of a thickened flavor. And then you can just bake it not use the nuts. And then it comes more like a cake. And that’s a really good option. We have that Apple cake option on there, too. So, apple cake and/or uhm— the Paleo Apple Crisp. Apple crisp I think is a little bit more healthy coz you don’t’ have any flours in there. They’re all just a good healthy nuts and fats.

Evan Brand: Right. Yeah. I have a female client last week. She said she’s going to make a like a pumpkin pie but she’s going to do coconut flour and I think she said coconut flour and Coke and cashews maybe. So I know that there’s options out there. I just don’t eat too much dessert anyway, you know, besides a good piece of chocolate. But if you’re somebody who you’re going to go to one of these events and you think, “You know what I don’t want to miss out” Well then you just make it. You know, let  everybody else bring the meat and veggies. You just bring a healthy dessert. That way, you know that you’re gonna be safe and you’re not gonna cause yourself a flare-up or new problems.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. For the most part, your turkey’s gonna be good, right? If you’re gonna do your mashed potatoes, fine. If you do cranberry sauce, if you’re gonna do squash, if you’re gonna do green beans or will do like uhm— Brussels sprouts with bacon, that’s typically gonna be good. You’re gonna mess it up with the excess uhm—gravy. So do the gravy right way and you do a healthy stuffing options. So I recommend is if you’re going somewhere, maybe you bring some gravy, or if you don’t bring the gravy, maybe you just uhm— bring the stuffing. And people won’t even know. We bring some of these healthy Paleo options we go places to get invited. People wouldn’t even know the difference a lot of times.

Evan Brand: Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The big thing is for me it’s about, it’s not about, “Oh, Dr. J, you’re being, you know, such uh—so tight about this. You know, why can’t you roll?” Well, the reason why  is I wanna feel freaking good afterwards.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I wanna eat a lot and I want to feel good. And there are great options and I don’t notice a difference in flavor. I can make my option and it will taste just as good. So those are some good options. Anything else you want—Oh, also dessert. Just, you know, if you’re doing a pumpkin pie, you can just leave out the crust are there some really good gluten-free, crust options or you can do coconut uhm— crust option. That’s fine. And you can just do your pumpkin pie without you know, just the lower amount of sugar. That’s totally good right there. Uhm— is or anything else you want to mention for desserts outside of the Apple Crisp?

Evan Brand: I think you covered it. I mean you could bring along a piece of dark chocolate if you’re just super scared and you don’t want to go for any of the more processed things. Bring a cup— bring a bar of dark chocolate with there on the fridge when you get to your family’s house.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And again, you could do Pecan Pie a little bit higher in sugar. You just have to make sure the crust is gluten-free. That’s totally fine, too. And obviously, just some really good maybe some coconut ice cream, coconut vanilla ice cream’s totally cool. And then what about supplement options? So we talked about, number one, the enzymes, HCL and digestive support. Number two, you could always add in some activated charcoal.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Activated charcoal. Number three, you could always throw in some probiotics later just to kinda help soothe and relax the tummy. Number four, well how about the approach like when do we eat the meals? So, number one, I recommend intermittent fasting and adding in some exercise in the morning. Even if it’s just a quick Tabata, or just a quick little weightlifting circuit where you kinda do upper-lower, upper-lower and just kind of a simple circuit for 15-20 minutes. Just something in the morning to really get the metabolism revved up. You may fast a little bit more. You may hold that fast a little bit longer than normal because you know that your gonna feast at the end of the day and all those calories will be coming in there to make up for that deficiency. Most aren’t gonna be working out on Thanksgiving. They’re gonna be relaxing and so it’s not as big of a deal.

Evan Brand: How about alcohol? You mentioned that off-air. You said we need to make sure we talk about that. So you’re recommending after meals instead of before meals saving?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, yeah, I recommend just have a little bit. Well, number one, there’s a couple of strategy. So I may do one glass just to kinda get that buzz in my system fast. It’s like, “Ooh, I could feel it.”  And then I’ll throw maybe a couple of things, a charcoal in, and then maybe there will be like a shrimp cocktail out and have a couple of little shrimps just to kinda get the protein, fat in there which kinda stabilizes my blood sugar level a little bit more so I’m not gonna go wonky. And then I typically just go with like a dry champagne or a dry Prosseco. So it’s very dry kind of a demi-sack, not a lot of sugar white and I like the sparkling. The sparkling has been shown to increase alcohol absorption. There was a—one study out of a bunch of college students. Can you imagine that? I would love to have been in the study in college where they gave them shots of vodka and then the other group got shots of vodka with carbonated water or like soda water. And they measured their blood-alcohol content and they found that the group that had the bubbles with their vodka had a much higher blood alcohol content for the same amount of alcohol. So, go figure. So what’s the moral of the story? You get— your alcohol goes for little bit longer of array when there’s little bit of carbonation or, bubbles in there. And James is saying, “What about Cheetos?” Yeah. So I would do Cheetos with my ginger Kombucha and a little bit of lime. The lime provides extra vitamin C, which is great for glutathione. The Kombucha has extra B vitamins and antioxidants and EGCG in there and uhm—probiotics. So it actually helps detoxify and help your gut microbes while you get a little tipsy.

Evan Brand: See that almost makes me wanna drink alcohol but every time I drink alcohol, I feel like I can’t comprehend simple things, like I like to I like to always have my brain going going going.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand:  And for me to shut off with the alcohol, it’s almost stressful. It’s almost like, “Nope, my brain is slowing down.” I don’t like this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, we should make sure the demand on our brain is less.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: When the time—we’re not gonna be like opening up the champagne bottles when we’re seeing patients, right?

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We wanna make sure our patients get a 100% of our brain capacity. But when it’s the holidays and we’re just watching some football, and our brain is like 80% off, maybe it’s not that big of a deal.

Evan Brand: <laughs> For sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. But, yeah, we have the activated charcoal. We just have really good quality alcohol. Uhm— again, why does it matter? Coz I don’t want a headache. I don’t wanna feel crappy. I don’t want a ton of breakouts the next day. So we’ll choose uh—and typically, I’ll just get $15 bottle of really good dry Prosseco from Whole Foods. And I try to, you know, if I can go organic or you know, typically, the dryer ones are not gonna have as much sugar. It’s the sugar that’s gonna really throw you off. Uhm—you can also do the dry Creek wines. They have some decent stuff. Again, they don’t have a lot of bubbles like a lot of spike, Prosecco, I do that because number one, it helps with alcohol absorption. Number two, I just like the bubbles.  They don’t have a lot of options with that. So I will check out some of the whole foods or local stores, they have a very low sugar like as for a brewed or a Demi-Sec uhm—Prosecco option.

Evan Brand: The holidays are fun.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: They are. Absolutely!

Evan Brand: I think our next month of episodes is probably be silly. It’s coz that’s the that the holiday vibe. It’s relaxing. It’s like, you know what, the summer time things have cooled off. It’s time to relax, time to rekindle, time to cuddle up, snuggle under your wool blanket next to a fireplace. This is a good time of the year.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I got a fireplace in my office so it’s actually nice coz I actually get to use it this time  of the year, so—

Evan Brand: That’s awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So my dog just like—it’s basically a magnet for my dog. She just kinda—next to it all day. But, yeah, totally. And then uhm—you mentioned a couple things there. We talked about the alco—so yeah, really getting the exercise component going. Coz that really is gonna wring out a lot of the glycogen in your muscles. So think of glycogen as stored carbohydrate in your muscles and imagine you wringing that muscle out. You’re wringing that sponge out so all of that water in the sponge, all that glucose stored in the muscle now gets used up doing the exercise. Now what does that do? It’s like, well, it’s the equivalent of going and having a nice dry sponge to sop up a whole bunch of liquid drink that your kid knocked over, right? So you can just— that sponge is gonna work a lot better and be more absorbent. Think of your muscles as being more absorbent. So when you get extra carbohydrates into your uhm— body from your meal in your celebration that you’ll have a bigger sponge to soak it up.

Evan Brand: That’s a good idea. I don’t know if many people act on it but if they do, they’re gonna see a really good result. Here’s a question for Mike. He says, “It’s crazy. My Oura ring consistently shows my sleeping heart rate 5 to 15 bpm higher even after having just two drinks like red wine. I feel it the next morning. Any suggestions?” Justin, I know what you’re gonna say. Go ahead.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, alcohol can drop blood pressure. So it could be your blood pressure is lower than your heart has to be a little bit faster the compensate for that drop in blood pressure. That’s probably what it is.

Evan Brand: So you’re thinking maybe you don’t need suggestions. So I thought you might say, “Oh, just are you doing charcoal? Make sure you do charcoal.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Of course, right? Like of course, extra charcoal. We can always throw some vitamin C in there, add in L cysteine. And we could even throw in, yeah like in our lines, we can throw in some detox aminos which is kind like your sulfur base, kinda NAC with a whole bunch of other sulfur amino acid in there. That— that’d be fine. I mean, I would do that. You can also throw a little bit of magnesium in there to uhm— to help with the with that component. But uhm—yeah, I would just look at potentially that just being the alcohol and just do all the things that help detoxify.

Evan Brand: Okay. Cool. Awesome. I think that’s everything we’ve hit. I don’t know if there’s any other piece to the holidays you wanted to go over.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. I would try to time off like for me, I notice if I have felt any alcohol in my system when I go to sleep, I do not sleep nearly as good so I tried to give myself like a good three-hour washout period before bed. So I don’t have you know a lot of alcohol in my system. I just don’t sleep as good. I literally have more nightmares, I’m more active, I move around the bed a lot more. I had a glass of champagne before bed like a week or two ago and I like literally woke up at a right angle. So I was like laying across the whole head. I’m just way more active. Normally, I don’t move much at all. So again, if I I had that like at seven and I went to bed at like 10, it wouldn’t be a problem. But if I’m having it right up against bedtime, sometimes it could be the__ plus you know, I’m— I don’t know what the alcohol is when I go out if I order it. I try to order, you know, a nice low sugar kind but you have the bottle in front you look at it, so you just try to go off the waiter’s suggestions.

Evan Brand: Exactly. Yeah. I think it’s all good advice the liver-gallbladder support. I mean, that’s always helpful, too. So if it’s milk thistle or if it’s your Cordyceps mushroom. I mean there’s a lot of different products we use for for liver gallbladder support. One of the thing I was gonna mention, too, make sure that you check in with your practitioner if it’s Justin or myself. If you’re taking anti-parasitic herbs, some of these herbs can get intensified with alcohol. So one glass of wine may feel like four. You may not be able to make it home. See—take a  look and see what you’re actually using. I know some of these can create that sensitivity up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. Any other suggestions just like meal wise or anything that you guys are doing with your family for the holidays?

Evan Brand: I’m gonna bring some snacks just in case. I mean we don’t know the full spread coz we’re gonna go to like three or four different events.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s tough.

Evan Brand: ..this week and we don’t know exactly what people are cooking, what people are bringing. So just in case, I’m just gonna go ahead and bring uh—I’ve got a couple of some jerky like some jerky strips like some grass-fed steak strips that I’ve got and then I’ve also got a handful of macadamia’s of customer cons would also have coconut chips so I’m just gonna bring some snacks just have that in my wife’s purse just in case just in case we get somewhere and it’s just— I have been to a couple events where it was literally like a casserole, it was covered in cheese and that was the only—that was like the main entrée. There’s no way I could do this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand:  Like you know, with enzymes, I’d be destroyed so uh—that’s— that’s about it. Just be prepared boy scout. Act like I was going to place that had no food.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And again, there are some people out there where they may be really happy with her health right now. They’re just like, “Hey, this is a once a year thing and I’m just gonna cheat and really enjoy it. And that’s fine, too. But you know, still you can utilize some of the supplements and strategies we recommended so you at least doesn’t hit you as hard. And if you want to wreck if you want to apply some of the substitutes that Evan and I apply, and I’ve done it for years that in my opinion allow me to continue to feel good. I just— for me, it’s not just feeling good that day. I got four days off  work. I don’t take a lot of time off. I wanna feel good for those four days and I also don’t want to get sick either.

Evan Brand: Yup. Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, any other thoughts, Evan?

Evan Brand: I think that’s it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So any other plans for you this week? Are you taking some time off from patients or—?

Evan Brand: Yeah. So Thursday, Thursday- Friday I’ll be taking some time off. My wife she’s can go out and participate in the consumer holiday on Friday. And I think that’s about it. I’m gonna try to spend some time out in the woods. I may— I may go out and and go for a deer hunt again. I want to get my own dear this year. 99% of it is just sitting out in nature listening to the birds but may be .01% of the time an animal walks by.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: Really, it’s just my excuse to go do some forest bathing. I may try to do that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What’s the Japanese term for that?

Evan Brand: Shinrin Yoku.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Shinrin Yoku. I love that, man. That is crazy. Cool. And we also add another herb to our parasite killing line, too. The mimosa Pudica. So I know will be adding that to our stores in the next week or two. It’s one of those things that we are kind of experimenting with. We’re helping to kill bugs and some of the wormies. So it’s something out there that if your patient and you want to inquire about that, we can chat about that very soon.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Stay tuned. I’ve gotten many, many pictures in my inbox of worms that people are pooping out from using this Mimosa Pudica. I was just a guest on the parasite summit, which is how I learned about this formula. And tons of people are taking it now and everybody’s saying, “Oh my God! My stool test showed up negative but I took this stuff anyway. And here’s what I pooped out. Surprise!” And it’s pretty nasty stuff. So Justin and I are talking off like, “Are you going to try some of the stuff?”  I’m guessing we’re gonna have to because we’ve been guinea pigs for everything else. So, who knows if we’ve got some hidden—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. Well, what a great call today here, Evan. Happy holidays and Happy Thanksgiving for you and your family. And we’ll talk next week.

Evan Brand: Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You, too.

Evan Brand: Likewise. Bye.

 


REFERENCES:

Justin Health Paleo Apple Crisp

https://justinhealth.com/products/detox-aminos/

http://catalog.designsforhealth.com/AllerGzyme-60_3

http://www.drycreekvineyard.com/

Sinus and ear infection solutions – Podcast #133

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand plunge into a discussion about ear and sinus infections and how nutrition either boosts our immune system or makes our bodies susceptible to infections. Be well informed about the products and natural solutions they have used in successful treatment of infections they have encountered with young ones and adult patients, too.

If you have kids, pregnant, breast feeding or planning to breast feed, listen very well and get loads of beneficial information regarding the importance of breast milk, high-quality and nutritious diet, as well as supplements for the mom that may affect the babies in relation to infections. Also, learn more about recent research in antibiotic use and its possible negative effects in our ability to fight off infections.

 

In this episode, we cover:

02:47      Ear Infections

06:23      Antibiotics and its side-effects

10:26      Nutrition and the importance of breast milk

13:22      Allergies

18:26      Natural Solutions & Product Recommendations

 

itune

 

 

youtuve

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we’re back. We’re live on YouTube and Facebook. Evan, how we doing today, man?

Evan Brand: Hey, what is going on? Good old technology.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know. Excellent. I guess you got the memo. It’s the uh—blue polo day.

Evan Brand: Yes, sir. Happy Friday.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it.   A little—I got my Lulu lemon on. We gotta get them as the show sponsor of our clothes.

Evan Brand: I agree. That will be a great sponsor.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You gave me that idea the other day. So I like that. I’m gonna jump on board with it.

Evan Brand: Yes. So this idea we’re—we’re gonna discuss today, we’re gonna discuss some allergy issues, sinuses, ear infections, which a lot of this could apply to children, but adults, too. I mean this is something we deal with all the time, we hear about all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: A lot of fear mongering all the time about ear infections and that’s one of the most common reasons that children are getting put on antibiotics. That’s like their first exposure to antibiotics as they get an ear infection. So we should dive in. This is gonna be fun.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. So if you’re listening on Facebook, I’m gonna pin down a link so you can access the video on YouTube live. Coz YouTube live is where we’re gonna have the back and forth until we get the Facebook setup. So Evan, how’s your day going, man? It’s Friday morning. I’m really excited.

Evan Brand: It’s great. I’ve got the window open. It’s gonna be 80° today, the birds are chirping, the grass is green and growing. I can’t complain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it. Oh by the way, I have an awesome announcement for uh—just for me, and you, an the listeners. My wife and I will be expecting our first baby this fall. So we are super excited. It’s a boy, too, so—

Evan Brand: That is awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hence why I’m wearing the blue today. The baby blues.

Evan Brand: Love it, man. Congrats.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thank you. Excellent. Well, what did you have for breakfast, Evan ?

Evan Brand: Did I eat today? Yeah. I ate. I had bison jerky and some matcha tea.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Matcha. Love it.

Evan Brand: That was it. Actually, I just finished out the Matcha and now I’ve got some vitamin C here. I’m drinking about 3 g of vitamin C with some good clean water and that’s it. I was gonna do some berries this morning. My wife got some blackberries yesterday but I decided against it. Just went with the bison jerky, so I’m probably in a slightly ketotic state right now, which I feel pretty good and my brain is working.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s excellent, man. Very, very good.

Evan Brand: How about you?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Today I had some high-quality coffee with some butter and some MCT. I put about 10 or 20 g of collagen in it. And after the podcast today, I’m gonna make a nice little uh— green drink. Add a little MCT to that. You know, some fresh organic, green vegetables, maybe a little carrot to sweeten it up. And add some more collagen onto that just so I have some good fats and good protein and some good uh—micronutrients. So really, really excited there.

Evan Brand: Sound good, man. Sounds good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, let’s dig in. We talked about yesterday, kinda in our—pre set up for the podcast about talking about sinus and ear infections. The natural solutions we can do to help address sinus and ear infections. So what do you think about that?

Evan Brand: Totally. Yeah. Let’s hit it. Like I mentioned in the beginning. Ear infections are gonna be the common reason that kids and children are gonna be put on antibiotics. A lot of times, ear infections are preventable which we can talk about because food allergies are gonna be one of the most common causes that you can modify. And so, we can talk about the influence of dairy, your sugar, your fruit juices, your grains, your gluten, your sodas. I mean all these things are impacting your immune system that can set you up for potential ear infections. And honestly, a lot of children that you and I work with, likely have tubes put in because the doctor fear mongers them and there’s actually no evidence that ear tubes actually even work that much. Mercola has got a great of studies about this showing that, in the short term, the ear tubes, they get put in, can reduce the time with the middle ear infection. But it in the long term, there is no longer benefit of tubes. And so, you know, when I quote one of the studies here, “The said tubes and watchful waiting does not differ in terms of language, cognitive, or academic outcomes.” Basically they don’t do much. And a lot of times—what about the adenoids, too. I mean a lot of people get their adenoid removed for these things. That seems a bit extreme.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And I can speak from personal experience because I tubes many, many times. I had chronic ear infection that the child. Now here’s kinda the vicious cycle, right? Because we talked about—And we’ll put here, we have some really good studies that we’re gonna put down below. Looking at the microbiome connection. That’s kinda the gut microbiota and its connection with healthy ears, right? Healthy ear, flora health, right? So if we have ear infections, because of other reason which we’ll go into, and then we start taking antibiotics for those ear infections, that then disrupts the microflora. And that creates further imbalance that will perpetuate more and more frequent ear infections down the road. So you see the vicious cycle that conventional medicine really throws down is they’re not addressing the root cause of why these things happen in the first place. And then they give medication that actually works to treat the symptoms in the short run. But then actually perpetuate a need for more of that intervention and more of these problems. And then I can’t tell you how many patients— patients that I see that have been on more antibiotics throughout their life tend to be sicker and have—they’re the hardest to work with because of chronic gut infections, chronic gut inflammation and extreme food sensitivity because their gut microflora is so screwed up. So we really want to mitigate the use of antibiotics only to like absolutely must-haves. Now, if I go back in time and look at the things that drove me to have all the ear infections, gluten and dairy was huge. And part of the being reason why is I think that it affects the microflora, it creates more of an inflammatory environment but it also is gonna affect lympha—lymphatics. Coz I remember my ears always feeling like there was crap in it. Like I would like go swab it when I was younger and there’s gonna be so much junk in it. And my ears always felt full. So I do believe the research show some lymphatic increases when these inflammatory foods are there. So to live with all this fluid that interplay between the tissue and the blood, and the more sluggish that is, right? The more viscous that gets, that can create the ability for these—for that stuff to hang out longer and potentially perpetuate uh— infections. So making sure those foods are out. Go ahead, Evan.

Evan Brand: Yeah. So before we get into the functional approach to all of this, you know, we should talk about some of the side effects. So you mention what happens with antibiotics and now there is research that shows that antibiotics cause permanent damage to the DNA. So this is not something benign where you’re on the antibiotic for 4 or 6 or 8 weeks or even like a 7-day pack. This is lifetime impact. And I think we should probably add the question to our intake form when we’re working with our new clients. How many rounds of antibiotics have you—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Already on my intake form.

Evan Brand: Over—over your lifetime, though. I mean, yeah, a lot of times I’ve had people people would not even have a count because it could be in the dozens of times. I uh— typically like every 2 to 3 years, like what’s the last two to three year history of antibiotics? But I feel like we should almost say over the life, how many have you had?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I have that exact question on mind. I have one patient like a month or two ago, they said between 0 and 5 years of age, they had 120 antibiotic prescriptions.

Evan Brand: Oh my god.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Like you gotta be kidding me.

Evan Brand: That’s—that’s. I mean they are passed out like they are

Skittles, which is unfortunate now. Now, let’s talk about side effects. I mean if you are getting tubes, for example, then you could potentially have hearing loss from that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: I’ve read about some cases of hearing loss, you’ve got calcification of the tissue in the middle ear, and then also getting the, adenoids removed which I don’t know why, but the they—they always tell, “let’s go ahead, remove your adenoids, too as we put in these tubes.” And then—I mean, you’ve got risk of hemorrhage, you’ve got bleeding issues, you’ve got potential infection sites that could pop out where you got the surgery removed. I mean, it’s just crazy. My wife when she was a nanny down in Austin, the kids that she was a nanny for, everyday, literally if the kids were fussy, the mom would say, “Hey, if ever they get fuzzy, just give them Ibuprofen or Tylenol and Motrin—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Terrible.

Evan Brand: Or give them– And just because they’re fussy. And a lot of times, she said, “I would try to not give them the dose. I would act like I’m dozing them the medication.” But my wife knew what it was doing to their guts. And, of course, these kids get sick, they get up on antibiotics then both kids had tubes, then both kids had their adenoid surgery. It’s just crazy. So, yeah. Let’s talk about diet. I mean you hit on gluten and dairy, food intolerance is gonna be huge, and also, for me a big one is gonna be—which if you’re an adult now, it’s too late. But whether you were breastfed, or whether you are formula-fed because breast milk is like the most ultimate super food ever.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. So you hit a couple of things that I wanna backtrack on for the listeners. You mentioned the adenoids. And the adenoids and the tonsils are the first vessel for the lymphatic system to come in contact with—with our environment. So the adenoids are kinda like in the upper sinus back area, where the tonsils are in the back of the throat. So it’s like tonsils – adenoids. And they’re that first— first vessel for the lymphatic system. And that lymph is designed—think of it as like the fit—the air filter in your house, or the filter in your pool. It’s really designed to pull out a lot of that crud. Now the thing is, if we’re constantly driving a ton of inflammation, and a ton of crud’s going in there, it’s like getting a smoker in your house. What’s your air filter gonna look like in a couple of weeks? couple of month? It’s gonna be black. Now what’s gonna happen when that air filter gets so clogged that the pressure is increasing and now the HVAC and the heater has to work so hard now the heater is heating up, i.e. were having infections, right? Well, guess what conventional medicine would do? They would say, “Let’s just pull out the air filter and put a new one.” Right? But in—in the real world, example, right? When you pull the tonsils out and the adenoids out it’s gone. You don’t put a new one in, right? So it’s like, “Let’s just pull out the air filter and leave nothing there.” Because now nothing get’s clogged, right? But holistically and functional medicine-wise we say, “Hey! You’re smoking at my house, get the hell out, right? You’re clogging out my filter! Get out of here! Right? That’s kind of the solution. Now the smoke is coming from the smoker in your house but in a real world example, it’s coming from a lot of the foods—uh— especially refined sugar, it’s coming from refined dairy, it’s coming from gluten, of course, and obviously getting, you know, lack of breast milk is going to be huge. I did not get a chance to have breast milk that long as a child, alright? Did not. Only a couple of weeks. It’s kind of like that thing I really wish I could go back in time, and like, “Mom you need to breast-feed me longer.” She said, “Look I didn’t want it, whatever.” I’m a baby. I didn’t know any better. C’mon. But in general, that’s what I would’ve wanted to have happen. But the breast milk is a big thing, right? Having that breast milk, for at least that for six months minimum a year, World Health Organization says, 18 months. I try to at least get all my patients to do a year. That’s super, super important for starting the cascade of good microbiome health and thus, affecting the ear, too.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Now if you’re an adult and like myself, too, I was formula fed for most of my baby years. I mean there’s nothing we can do now but to work forwards. So this is involved – this is getting the testing run now. So if you’re an adult, and you’ve had ear infections, or you had your tubes in, or you had the adenoids removed, well, you—you gotta get yourself tested because 9 out of every 10 clients that we test, we’re gonna find some type of issue in the gut. And this is bacterial in nature, which could be for previous antibiotic use. This is yeast so we’re talking, Candida mainly, we’re looking for albicans and SPT—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Evan Brand: Although there is about 20 different species of Candida. And then we’re looking for parasites, too, because anything that’s gonna damage the gut barrier, can also leave you susceptible to ear infections, sinus problems, any type of allergies. Because your gut is basically the foundation. So, you don’t necessarily have to go straight to the ear which we’re gonna talk about some ear treatments that you can do to fix your infections and these problems. But a lot of times, do you agree this has to start in the gut. We’ve gotta make sure that you’ve got a healthy gut, and a healthy blood brain barrier, and a healthy—uh – basically a sealed-up gut, for lack of a better term.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. It all starts in the gut, it all starts with the food. Now, I see people, I seen parents online and I—I jump on there, and they’re like complaining about their kid’s ear infection and I’m just like, “Alright, I’ll be a good Samaritan doctor.” I’ll be like, “Hey! Do this, do that, and it’s always ignored.” Like, I look at all the likes and the comments, people are like “Oh! Poor thing! Get this done! Get antibiotics!” And then my comment that actually addresses a solution goes like, unanswered, kind of ignored because it actually involves making some changes. So, people— I think people are getting the idea that the conventional solutions for these things aren’t working and are creating more problems. But uhm—you know, it’s definitely some extra effort that you have to do, but in the end, I remember of having tubes and chronic ear infections for so long up into my— even early teens. It was terrible, I was miserable! Now I didn’t get a lot of the sinus stuff, my brother got a lot of the sinuses. But in my opinion, whether its ears or sinuses, it’s just the weak link in the chain. The same mechanism that’s affecting the sinus issues is the same thing that’s affecting the ear issues.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: What about allergies too? I mean you and I talk a lot about the stress bucket, and so what you and I were talking about before we went live is, how many people have allergies? And it’s almost per trade, is it’s a “normal thing”, but I always tell people just because something is common, like saying ear infection or sinus issues or allergies that doesn’t mean that it’s normal. And you’ve got these Claritin commercials and you’ve got these other pharmaceutical drugs to get on TV, and they make it seem like everybody needs—everybody needs that, everybody has allergies. The outdoors, it—it’s just a crazy environment, there’s grass, and trees, and flowers and oh my god, you’re not meant to live outdoors. You’re meant to live in your little bubble, and anytime you go outdoor, well, you need our pharmaceutical protection. And that’s just crazy. If you do have environmental allergies, there’s likely some deeper stuff going on. That could be adrenal related, it could be gut related, the yeast, the bacteria, the parasites. It could be detox problems, if you got sluggish liver, if you’re not digesting your foods well, if you’ve got food sensitivities, so you’ve not remove the gluten and the dairy from the diet, that stress bucket’s full. Then you go outside and then you do get allergies which gives you the sinus problems and maybe that gets worse and worse and turns into some type of ear problem. We have a question, from—let’s see—Genesis, on here, he said, “Why do my ears ache when it’s windy?” What’s your take on that? To me, I would just say go you get your gut check. But I’m not sure why that would happen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, that’s kind of—that’s kind of vague—uhm—typically, the more inflamed certain parts of the body are, the more sensitive to certain things it will be. Like if I have from chronically inflamed to shifting my manual car may create some elbow inflammation. Now, is the shifting of the car really the problem? No. It’s the roomful of gasoline or the roomful of gas fumes and it’s that small little match that— that burns down the house. Even though the match went off, it’s with the inflammatory environment of all the gas fumes that are hanging out. That’s the issue. So I was always look at the underlying inflammatory environment that’s setting up the milieu to then when that spark goes off to create that issue. And that spark essentially being the wind there.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. I wanna go back to not just making it an anti-antibiotic podcast but I do want to mention the fact that—that even the US Center for Disease Control and Prevention they write that ear infections will often get better on their own without antibiotic treatment. Taking antibiotics when they’re not needed is harmful. Un— unwanted side effects like diarrhea, rashes, nausea stomach pain, more serious side effects can occur.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: Which can include life-threatening allergic reactions, kidney toxicity, severe skin reactions. And each time your child takes antibiotic, the bacteria that live in the body ,skin, mouth, intestine. And now we know that there’s a microbiome of the ear. Isn’t that crazy?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s crazy. The microbiome of the ear. Everywhere. I mean vaginal canal, gut, everything. It’s all—It’s interconnected, for sure. So also, couple of side effects with the antibiotics that we really need to talk about is the mitochondria.

Mitochondria are like these little power houses of the cell that generate ATP which is the currency of energy in which our body functions. And that’s so important for optimal energy. I mean, Dave Asprey has got a book coming out or it’s coming up very soon. He’ll be here in Austin next week. And its called, Head Strong and it’s all about basically improving your mitochondria. And your mitochondria is so important. Just google “mitochondria and antibiotics” you’ll see a strong connection. We put some of these links in previous podcasts. I’ll let the viewers do your homework. I will post a reference section on the bottom. Antibiotics and mitochondria, you’ll find significant disruption of the mitochondria with antibiotics. And obviously, it’s dose-dependent, right? The more you do it, the more you use it, the potential that increase has to happen. So that’s another mechanism. Now, we can talk about some solutions. Any thing else you want to address, Evan, before we actually dig in with some solutions?

Evan Brand: Sure. I’d like to just pile on top of the mitochondrial thing you mentioned. You know, a lot of clients come to us with brain fog and chronic fatigue as well as a starting place and maybe they’ve had these type of infections but they’ve also got chronic fatigue. And you’ve just brought the word “mitochondria” so it sounds like to me, we could infer based on someone’s use and history of antibiotics that we can infer. Well, here’s a root cause of chronic fatigue is the mitochondria that’s been damaged from antibiotics. So that’s really gonna make us have to do a lot more work on supporting mitochondrial health, but then getting the gut back in check, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. And also, cortisol. I mean if—if we’re bringing babies into this world that are adrenally-depleted, again, this is kind of weird but if a woman is stressed, especially that during pregnancy, you can put on certain you can activate certain epigenetics that will start exacerbating or stimulating that babies adrenal in the third trimester. And the more stressed that mom is throughout pregnancy, you’re activating certain epigenetics, but also in the third trimester, gonna be stimulating the babies adrenal glands. So if you bring a baby into this world with a lot of adrenal dysfunction, off the bat, they may have an inability to regulate inflammation in general coz they’re not spitting out enough cortisol. Now we don’t ever want to treat a baby directly, you know, supplement-wise. We would do it by getting the mom really healthy. Uhm—the only thing I recommend to a child, probably off the bat, if they’re having issues, is probiotics. And then we could talk about maybe some homeopathic drops, or some natural solution to be put in the ear topically uh—to hit the area very focused versus do a systemic kind of atom bomb dropped.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well said. I thought that was crazy 3-4 years ago when I heard the fact that you can basically steal your—your baby your fetus’ adrenal glands. This is why some women report feeling so good during pregnancy and some of it could be that they’re deriving some of their boost from the adrenals of the baby and then you give birth. Now instead of having four adrenals that your thriving energy from, you got two adrenals just—you’re driving energy from. And some women have kind of that postpartum either Hashimoto’s or some type of postpartum depression. So yeah, that’s a trip. There was a question here, “Can your sinuses get clogged for years?” I mean I would say, “Absolutely!” What do you think? If you’ve got these uhm— food allergies in your diet for years and yeah, you could stay clogged up all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. So that congestion can happen. Now we also have to look at physical structure issues, especially in the nasal area. So being a chiropractic doc, you really want to make sure that you are well-adjusted like make sure you at least see a good chiropractor once a month and make sure your cervical spine and everything is doing well, number one. Number two, you may have some turbinate issues with these bones up here in the spine. You may need a technique called “nasal specific” where they put these balloons up and they can help declog any of these turbinate issues whether from trauma or malformation. And again, Weston A. Price talks about poor nutrition. One of the things that happens is narrowing of the middle third with this area— here is broken into a third – a third – and a third. And the more nutritionally-deficient the parent was that brought you into this world, this middle third starts to narrow. So one of the biggest signs of gluten sensitivity and poor nutrition is a narrowing middle third and a very large upper thirds. So when you see people walking down the street with that big forehead and you see that smaller middle third, with that smaller lower third, gluten deficiency, poor nutrition of the parents, big time, off the bat. So again, some of this we can’t really change, right? Like the parent stuff, that’s all epigenetic stuff. But we can at least be aware that we’re bringing kids and babies into the world, right? We got to get the nutrition dialed in. That’s number one. Number two, uhm—chiropractic’s helpful on the spine as well as the nasal canal and nasal specific. And also, acutely, chiropractic can be great for the—uhm— for the canal of the child. The person with the ear issue. Now when you’re younger, the ear canal tends to be more parallel, right? So it won’t drain as well. You have that—that draining angles. So one of the things that some chiropractors will do is, pull my ear front out, they’ll do a specific adjustment where they rotate the ear, they pull it, they rotate it in clockwise and they tug. And that tug kinda opens up the uhm—the nasal canal and will allow some of that junk to drain. Now, is that root cause? No. Is it palliative without any— without very little side effects and no— not affecting the microbiome and inflammation? Yes. So it’s a really good from a palliative perspective. Again, spine, really good. Nasal really good and then the ear adjustment, that’s the next really good step.

Evan Brand: That’s great. Now what happened with my wife, I believe, I don’t know if we were swimming in the ocean, or where we were, but she came home and her ear which is clogged. And we thought, “Man, this is gonna turn into an ear infection.” Coz she had this water that was just in her ear for like a week. And I said, “Justin, what do I do?” And you said, “Evan, you’ve gotta go get these—these eardrops. Do you remember that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Yup.

Evan Brand: And—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That was the Citricidal Eardrops. Those are great. Little bit of grapefruit seed extract in there. Those eardrops are phenomenal. Also, men, Hydrogen Peroxide, 3% it’s like two dollars at your uhm— drugstore. Just a little cap for that, it will bubble like crazy. Leave it in there till the bubbling stops and then you can dump it out. That was my go-to ear infection. I was waterskiing on Lake Traverse two years ago and I took a header. And I perforated this eardrum and uh—whole bunch of you know, bacteria and crap from the lake got in there. And one of the things I did was hydrogen peroxide and I diluted with a little bit of silver. So hydrogen peroxide – silver. That way, I could just clear that crap right out.

Evan Brand: That’s amazing. Now when-when you did that to your eardrum, was there any other bad side effects? What happened?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Just the side effects of a perforated eardrum. It’s irritated, it’s inflamed. Uhm— when you have an ear issue, man, it screws everything up because just sounds that come in are just like balance, just you’re over hyped up. So everything is irritating and kinda bother you. That my wife just leave me alone for a few days but then we just gonna do all the good things that help with the inflammation and all the good healing nutrients. I use the uh—the Similasan’s. Similasan’s, they have a really good homeopathic eardrop that we used. I use the Citricidal eardrops. I use some silver and I used some hydrogen peroxide and I kinda just rotated those. And growing up, hydrogen peroxide was absolutely phenomenal for the ear coz it’s just so cheap and it’s great. And actually that’s a natural—uhm— flu or cold kind of cure because they say a lot of ways that viruses kinda vector into your body is through the ear. So just doing like a little capful of that 3% hydrogen peroxide, it can really knock out potentially any viruses or bacteria making their way into the body.

Evan Brand: I think I told you when I met with one of the—the higher-ups at designs for health, which is a professional healthcare company if people are listening. I met with one of the higher-ups and he said he travels like 250 days a year. He’s always concerned about picking up sinus infections or ear infections from being on airplanes all the time. And one of his preventative measures was he was taking the silver in a spray bottle and he would spray his ear canals.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Evan Brand: Then he would spray his nose, right? You know, kind of like a barrier protection around his holes of his— his nostrils in his ears. And the guy never got sick, so—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it. Totally make sense. So, off the bat, we kinda have the preventative stuff with the mom to baby, and stress in the adrenals. Obviously, try to have a vaginal birth. It’s gonna be essential because the activation of the bacteria in the vaginal canal and how that affects the child’s immune system. Number two, if you can’t get, for some reason, emergency happens where the cord gets wrapped around the child, the child’s oxygen levels drop and you have to have a C-section or the baby’s breach, number one, see a chiropractor beforehand. Get Webster technique to get that baby to go headfirst. But let’s say you can prevent that. Number two, go in there, and again, the doctor and the midwife probably won’t do this. So you have to get in there, get in there with a good swab. Swab your wife’s vagina area and then afterwards, when that baby comes out, you swab the baby with it because the baby would be getting exposed to that, anyway and now it’s not. So do a good swab, put it in like a little baggie and then after the C-section, then you— when you’re doing skin-to-skin, have that baby all swabbed on. Now don’t tell the— the doctor or nurse what you’re doing coz they’re probably look at you like 10 heads. And this is—you know, I told my OB about this ahead of time, she’s like, “Oh, well, you know, you can do that, but just keep it to yourself. We don’t have a problem with it, but you just keep it to yourself.” So that’s what we’re doing if that does happen. So have a back up plan, ideally.

Evan Brand: Totally. And why? Why—why would they— why is it have to be so hush-hush, I don’t understand what the deal is?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, it’s – in conventional medicine, there’s a conveyor belt man. Like here is what you do, here’s the cookbook, great. 1-2-3-4-5. And anytime you put a kink in that step, or something that disrupts that flow, you know, everyone perks up and it’s like, “What—What’s happening?” You know. So the more you can just lull them to keep that procedure going uh—it’s ideal.

Evan Brand: Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I had a client who—I’m trying to—who it was—it was either yesterday or the day before and she actually went to her conventional doctors to show the lab test, the organic acids test and he’s like, “This isn’t even a valid test. I’ve never heard of this before.” It’s like just coz you never heard of organic acids testing, doesn’t mean it’s not valid. You try to say that uh—instead of the herbs that were gonna use for Candida that she should just be using a Diflucan and— which is a prescription which is just unnecessary, so—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There can be a lot of side effects with Diflucan. I tried it before the—with the uh— with the fungal infection in the past. Coz I just was trying all these different things and one of the side effects I found was lightheadedness. That drug cause a ton of lightheadedness, insane.

Evan Brand: That’s scary.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And there’s some research that it can cause neurological problems, too. So I mean, some people it may not be a bad thing, uhm— if you’re combining it with herbs and everything else and it’s just a part of the program, but just as like a, “Hey, you know, don’t change your diet, don’t do anything else, just take this.” —probably not gonna be the best long-term solution.

Evan Brand: Yup. So I think—I think we —we’ve we kinda jumped around. We jumped into some—some solutions and side effects and all that’s— I mean really diets can be first step, getting a nutrition plan in place it’s gonna be more like a Paleo or autoimmune paleo diet, potentially getting rid of your grains, your sugars, of course your sodas, your juices gotta go, pasteurized dairy—it’s gotta go. I remember for me, with my skin, you were like, “Evan, even though it’s organic grass-fed cheese, you still gotta cut it out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Your skin look so much better compared to last year.

Evan Brand: I know. So I had to get rid of it, even though I miss it and it was delicious. I rather feel good and, you know, have— have better skin. So you’ve got a get out the— the dairy except for butter. Sometimes you can do okay with butter and the wheat. I mean we talked about that but any type of gluten issues you’re gonna be creating the intestinal permeability. Even if you don’t have celiac, doesn’t matter. The gluten is still gonna affect the gut which is therefore going to make you more susceptible to ear infections and allergies and sinus problems. Uhm— secondhand smoke, we talked— you talked about that a little bit, that analogy. But yes, uhm— there is research that secondhand smoke also increases the risk of ear infections for children. So if you’re going over to a family’s house or someone in the family smokes—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And then when you hold the baby, uhm— don’t let them do that. Also, if you are gonna bottle feed for some reason, apparently, bottle-feeding while lying down increases your risk of ear infections. That’s something that I just learned this morning with some research, but it makes sense.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Also, the quality of the food that the mom eats has a huge effect on the baby, okay. I’ll give you an example, alright? My neighbor —her child had a really difficult time sleeping continuously, up every half-hour. The big thing that they did is they pulled out eggs, and it was one nightshade family made up of eggs and tomatoes. And that one tweak, change the composition of the breast milk and the baby slept like just magic. So quality of breast milk is incredibly important and is dependent upon what the mom eats. So if you’re having issues with your child off the bat, even if it’s just sleep or ears, get your diet super, super clean. Super, super clean. Just because you’re feeding a baby or growing the baby, it’s not a license to eat whatever the heck you want. Nutrient density is incredibly important. With my wife being pregnant, we— we’re doing lots of things to increase nutrient density. She gets exposure to a little bit of liver everyday. Uhm— she does a green smoothie with organic vegetables in the morning, we mix in some MCT oil there. We do some collagen. She gets some Pasteur-fed eggs and Pasteur-fed bacon from time to time. And she’s eating 3 solid meals a day. And then get one good, healthy, organic shake in there. And really mitigating stress, and some probiotics and some magnesium to keep the bowel moving. So when you get pregnant with the hCg and all that stress down, it can create some issues with regularity. So that’s — I don’t wanna go too much on that, that’s a separate podcast. But, you know, we could just— we could do a podcast marathon and be here for 8 hours—I think, it allows us to do 8-hour straight, so we should uh—we should push that one time.

Evan Brand: We could. We could to a marathon.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Evan Brand: So we—we hit on the—the eardrops, there’s garlic eardrops, too that I’ve read about. I’ve personally not use those. I’ve only used the uh— grape seed extract. Also, breast milk for eardrops. If you have a small little dropper, you can use breast milk for your drops, And it’s gonna be safer, less expensive, far better than antibiotics. Also, I don’t know if read about this, but coconut oil eardrops apparently exist, where basically I mean, all I would—I wouldn’t buy a specific drop, I would just take a load of the coconut, heat it up a bit, and then put into a container.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: You’re gonna get the caprylic acid in there. Which is probably gonna be the best thing. What else you—you got capric acid in there, or two that maybe gonna acts as a natural antimicrobial.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. So let’s kinda go through some of the sinus stuff. So, off the bat, with the sinus, you can do Xlear, too, which is great. Xylitol which is an anti-biofilm kinda type of sugar alcohol and it also has an effect of being antibacterial. So that’s excellent.

Evan Brand: What is it called?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Xlear or X-Y-L-E-A-R. We’ll put links below the video and in the transcription, we’ll put some amazon product links, too. So if you guys wanna support us, you can get some of the things that we’re talking about through our affiliate links.

Evan Brand: Perfect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And these are things that I usually that I bought and used, too. Anything we talk about and recommend are things that I have personally done myself or have seen my patients do it with great success. So what you’ll read, though—we’re all about clincial results first. So Xlear is great, or Xylear, however you pronounce that. Next is gonna be—Dave Asprey’s got a good bulletproof sinus rinse which is really good. You got a big salad bowl. We’ll put the link for this, too. You put a whole bunch of—just gently warm water in there. You do about a quarter of a teaspoon of some high-quality salt—sea salt in there. And a couple of drops iodine for the most part. And then you’re gonna dip your head upside down, and then you’re gonna breathe or you’re gonna suck that in to the nose. Keep your mouth out of the water, of course. Suck it in to the nose. So it will kinda feel like you’re drowning, not the nicest feeling, uhm—but that will be really, really helpful. So half a teaspoon of high quality sea salt for every cup of water. That will prevent bacterial overgrowth. You can add a little bit of iodine in or a little bit of Xylitol. So basically, you’re gonna do the whole little dippy bird, a little—tip—tip your head back. Don’t tilt your head back or you’ll gag. So keep your spine parallel to the floor and then you’re gonna breathe in to the nose. And I will put the protocol down below. So blink your eyes a few times. The iodine will sterilize the lining of your eyes if you get it in your eye. So be careful with the iodine in your eyes and that will significantly help clear out. And I will put protocol down below as well. Next, you can do a Nasaline, as well. And I’ll do the Nasaline with the Neti Xlear or the NetiXlear, which is potassium biocarbs, some salt and uh—Xylitol, and a little bit of uh—I think that’s pretty much it. And it goes into the solution, and then you can pump it through with a Nasaline which is basically a plunger for your nose. So a Neti Pot’s one thing but you just pour it and it’s gravity that goes through. The Nasaline, it goes through in one nostril and it’s a plunger where you push it. So you get full contact of the sinus canal and then will go through and rinse that everything with full contact.

Evan Brand: That seems way better than the Neti Pot. I’m glad you brought that up because—because my wife she did the Neti Pot and something happened. I think she—she had some weird drainage and I think that that actually lead to her getting like kinda an ear pain from the Neti Pot. So what you’re talking about sounds way better.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, think about it, right? If this is like your sinus canal, right? And we’re putting water in there. The water is just gonna hit the bottom part, right?

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: For the most part. But if you get plunger in there, and you’re plunging it with actual pressure, it’s gonna have full contact of that sinus canal. So better chance of getting all the debris out.

Evan Brand: And that’s called what?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s called a Nasaline. We’ll put the link below. We’ll put the uhm—with the references. That’s gonna be great. That’s a really good product that I had a lot of patients used with great success. So you have the Bullet Proof Sinus Rinse, you have the Nasaline. If you already have the Neti, you can feel free and use the Neti. And the key things is just using the minerals using the Xylitol and/or adding some iodine. And/or just adding some silver. Like a simple thing you can do, too, is just lie back, ten drops in each nostril, three to the four times a day of high-quality silver. You know, in my line, it’s GI Clear-3 that we use and that has the 15 to 20 ppm of nano silver, not colloidal, but it’s nano. And again, don’t worry about argyria or turning blue with that. That’s gonna primarily happen from your homemade silver products.

Evan Brand: Why is nano silver better than colloidal? You got a lot of people promoting and selling colloidal out there but can you tell us why nano is superior?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Just the structure of it. It’s a different structures of a colloidal structure. It’s nanostructure so you’re gonna get better absorption for the most part.

Evan Brand: Sounds like it’s gonna be tinier the way that it’s gonna be structured.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And you can go look at—I think it’s Dr. Gordon Peterson. He’s an immunologist that’s talked a lot about this kind of silver and he’s helped formulate that kind of silver. So the nano silver, in my line, GI Clear-3, is the one we like uh—to help with that.

Evan Brand: Love it. Should we answer any couple of questions. We had a question about goat cheese. For me, dairy is dairy, regardless of the animal. I’d say pull it out especially if you’re—you are struggling. You’re better to just go completely dairy free for 30 to 60 days.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: People asking the questions, try to keep pertinent to the uh— podcast so we can connect it here. And then regarding ghee—ghee is definitely a good first dairy to add-in. So if you’re dairy-sensitive, you pull the dairy out for a few weeks to a month, and the first thing you add back in should be the ghee. Ghee is clarified butter so they suck out the lactose part. They suck out the casein part. All you got is the butter fat. So you have, basically, you know, very little casein, maybe microscopic levels and very little lactose. So you— it’s gonna be even better than butter, per se. An then if you do go with ghee, then you can try a little bit of grass-fed butter which will have very tiny amount of lactose and very tiny amounts of casein which may be acceptable level for you.

Evan Brand: For me, I could to the good quality grass-fed butter without a problem.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Cheese, though—ee—cheese and even raw milk, man. I don’t do good with those. I just—I really don’t. Skin breakouts, gas, bloating—not good. But I can do great with ghee and great with grass-fed butter.

Evan Brand: Isn’t it amazing, though. I mean just that one simple swab you got on me, you’re like, “Evan , man, you’ve gotta get rid of the cheese. Coz I would talk you through, you know, we’re kinda—you and I will talk off-air about what you eat, what do you do in diet-wise and what’s working and I told you, “Man, I’m doing this organic cheese.” And I don’t know if would say I was having sinus issues, but I definitely had some—I guess I would call it head pressure. Basically, kind of like a mild headache in the front of my—in the front of my head. I did not know that that was caused from dairy. And it was.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Your skin looks a thousand times better since you cut a lot of that cheese out.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I feel good. And I cut out corn, too. Now, I will do a little bit of some organic—blue—uh—blue corn chips maybe once a month or something now. They just taste so good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Alright. That’s one paleo demerit down there.

Evan Brand: Hey, I know you’ve done some corn in 2017, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A little bit. Well, I mean—obviously, it’s a Mexican restaurant, called Maddy’s. And we’ll do a little bit of their gluten-free organic corn chips that are like in a plastic bag. So it’s totally a waste, there’s no cross contamination. So, I will, from time to time, as a little reward. It’s Friday, you know, a little—little NorCal margarita, a little bit of Dr. J’s Moscow Mule. Yeah. Absolutely. Love it. Add it to the list.

Evan Brand: And now is that—are—or now is that blue? Or is that—is that yellow corn? I may be one up on you in the blue here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh—Yeah. I think it’s probably just the yellow. But it’s least organic and GMO free which is essential.

Evan Brand: Totally—totally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: Maddy’s is good and what was it—Tacodeli down there in Austin. They’ve got organic, pasture-raised pork shoulder tacos.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Unbelievable.

Evan Brand: Have you had those?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ve not. Tacodeli?

Evan Brand: Oh my, god. You’ve gotta go, man. It’s off uh—I wanna say it’s off of 360. Shouldn’t be too far from you. And they do organic uhm—they do organic tortillas as well and pasture-raised pork, so.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. Love it. Very cool. So let’s kinda summarize, alright? So you’re coming into this here and you missed the whole 45 minutes chat. So what are the key take homes? Diet, of course, refined sugar, dairy, gluten, grains—cut that out. If that’s not enough, you can go do an autoimmune template where we cut out, nuts, seeds, nightshades and eggs. You’ve left meat, vegetables, maybe a little bit of low, sugar fruit, maybe a little bit of starch and healthy fats minus dairy and uhm—nut and seeds. So that’s our good first step that we need. Now, after that, there are some preparation and things we can do ahead of time but may not help you in the moment. That’s the healthy pregnancy, that’s the stress, that’s getting the vaginal canal in contact with the baby on the way out to activate the immune system, that is the good quality breast milk, that is all that good stuff there. And keep them mom’s nutritional density high when she is breastfeeding because that becomes the building blocks to a lot of the uhm—raw material in the breast milk. You know my expression is you can’t make chicken salad out of a chicken shit, right?

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you got crappy quality ingredients going in that mom, guess what, you can’t make this awesome breast milk with bad ingredients. So let’s really keep the quality high. Next, we have for the sinuses, you have structural issues, you can do the nasal specific chiropractic technique, you can do adjusting of the spine, and the whole—the neck as well, especially the upper cervical area and then adjusting Eustachian tube to help increase the angle to allow the ear to drain, right? Now we have the rinses for the sinuses. We have the bulletproof rinse, we have colloidal silver uhm—for the sinuses. And we also can do hydrogen peroxide in water, 50-50 split and do drops in the nose, 4x a day, 10 drops. And then we also have the ear. We can do Similasan Homoeopathic, we can do the Citricidal; we can do the Hydrogen Peroxide; we can also do the silver. And then you can also do a little bit of garlic oil in there, as well. What do you think, Evan? I think we just like hit it all at once.

Evan Brand: Yeah. That was good. And treat the gut, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Of course. And the best things—the supplement you can use on your baby if they’re newborn, Infantis Probiotic. Infantis is a specific type of probiotic. One that we like is Ther-biotic Complete for Kids. That’s a great one uh—for kiddos. And—and that can be powder so you can just put in on your finger and then you can just put it in the gums or if you’re breastfeeding, you can put in the nipple area and have the child, get it from that. And also, give it to the mom and it will help with any potential translocation via the breast milk as well.

Evan Brand: I will say one last thing about breast milk and this is probably gonna only apply to maybe just a few listeners, but there are breast milk donation services out there, where for some reason if the mother is just too busy, she is working too much, I’ve seen women going and getting breast milk from other moms. I would never do that from my baby because who knows what that moms diet is like. Who knows how much glyphosate is in that. If the mother is not eating organic. We know, I just chatted with Dr. William Shaw in my podcast, you know, we’re talking about parts per billion of glyphosate which is what’s used a non-organic produce. Parts per billion being enough to disrupt uh— gut bacteria and kill beneficial bacteria in the gut which can lead to these ear infections. And so for me, I would never ever, ever, ever unless there’s was just something so wrong with the mother that she could not feed the baby—her breast milk. And she had to get another mom’s breast milk, I would literally have to do an interview process of that— of that mother. Is your diet organic? Are you eating gluten? Are you eating dairy? Because that’s gonna—breast milk is not all created equal, like you mentioned.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean, it’s really simple. You just pay a little bit more money. You—you provide that food for that mother who’s donating the milk if that’s your only option.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I mean, for the first 6 months. What you’re doing there, for 6 months to your kid is a better investment than paying for college or any of that. That’s like the best investment. So if you’re in that position and you have to do that, then definitely find someone. You know, the Lalecheleague’s a really good reference for that. But really find high-quality breast milk, if you need. There’s some Weston A Price recipes where you can do some home-made breast milk with liver extract and cod liver oil and raw milk or raw goat’s milk. But then also, like if the mom can’t breastfeed, it’s typically something wrong from a stress perspective and from a diet perspective, so really look at getting the diet fixed. I see a lot of women who go low fats have problems with producing breast milk. So—

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s really, really important. And then don’t quit. Like, don’t quit. Like can you imagine, like evolutionary times where like food’s like, you can’t feed. You don’t have like formula, you didn’t have all these things. So you couldn’t breastfeed your kid, like what would you do? That was it.

Evan Brand: You’re done for.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: This is it. They can’t eat solid food, right? Too young, what do you do, right? So maybe there will be another woman in the tribe that you give the baby off to and they would lactate for you. But ideally, you gotta get the diet right, you gotta get the stress right and then also, make sure that the inflammatory foods are out of there so the highest quality nutrients are coming through.

Evan Brand: Yeah. It sounds like we have to do a whole breastfeeding.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: Or optimal baby podcast.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: But I’ve heard many women, who they’ve completely just given up on breastfeeding because they said they were too stressed or too busy or something like that. But you really gotta try to modify that to make it possible because—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We’ll do a whole podcast on this. We’ll do a whole podcast on it. There’s a lot of nutrients and stuff you can do like fenugreek, you know, uh—mother’s milk tea. Just all kinds of things. And also, get a doula. If you’re having a hard time, get a doula. There are so many things. Like most women, it’s like, “Oh, I tried and it’s done.” No, get a doula. Like try for days, use—get someone who’s done it. So many times, they know all the tips and tricks to make it happen.

Evan Brand: Yup. Totally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that’s coming from someone who wasn’t breastfed ideally long enough. So I’m really passionate about getting that information out there.

Evan Brand: Me too. Me too. Well, we’ll send people back to your website. They can type in, Justinhealth.com to check out Justin and schedule consult with him. We deal with this stuff all the time, every single week, in the clinic. And my website notjustpaleo.com or just google our names: Justin Marchegiani Marchegiani Evan Brand. You’ll find us and make sure you subscribe here on the YouTube channel. Justin have over 25,000 subscribers on YouTube. Congrats. Whoo—

That’s uh—make sure we push that closer to a hundred grand because this is important information that is not readily available. Even in 2017, somebody’s gonna go down the street to the clinic, and maybe regret the mode of action that was taken. So we want to save you from that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. Any other questions you wanna answer in the queue there, Evan? I don’t think so. Was there any for you?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhm—again, someone said- Sam asked about Probiotics for a 7 year-old. Well, I’d probably still go with the Infantis. But you know, you’re gonna go, you’re gonna have a blend of Lactobacillus, Bifidobacterium Infantis in there . So you’re probably good with that one. I recommended it.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And I would say for a 7-year old, too. Believe it or not, I had a three-year-old girl but I just had her stool test back and she had 2 parasites and Candida and bacterial overgrowth. So, I mean, if the seven-year-old has got symptoms go ahead and get a—get a GI Map stool test on her I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s had antibiotics her seven years of life. She might have some type of overgrowth already. And you just don’t wanna come in and just try to fix it with a probiotic. A lot of times, that won’t be enough. You can’t just out probiotic your way out of an infection, unfortunately.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. And the easiest way to get kids to eat healthy. And again, this may, you know, sound kind of patronizing, right? But it—it’s a 100% true. Number one, don’t have crap in the house. Clean out all the crap in the house. Number two, you have family meals together and you will role model what good eating looks like. Mom and dad, they sit down to have their meal and they role model what it looks like. And the whole idea, you know, once the kid’s eating solid food, and they actually have teeth and they can chew and stuff, the whole idea behind baby food versus kids food, once they—once the mastication’s dialed in is ridiculous, right? They should be eating adult food and just, you know, cut it up small and make it really easy to digest. But those foods need to be done as well and you just role model it to the kids. You just parrot it back and the kids want to be like the mom and the dad. And they’re gonna wanna just do what the parents are doing. So you role model it and you create a really good environment and family meals.

Evan Brand: So we’re in those something funny uh—and we’re getting off topic but it’s Friday so we’re having fun. Uhm—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It all connects back to that because if you don’ get to diet, right? Then you’re gonna have sinus infections and ear infections all day long.

Evan Brand: A 100%. So it is on topic. Yeah, for sure. So my wife and I, we were discussing last night, “When do you make the transition from baby foods over to solid food?” You know, from pureed foods to real foods. And well, she said, “They tell you.” And our daughter, she’s starting to fuss about the pureed foods. And she’s trying to grab of mom’s plates. So like last night, for example, we some steam broccoli, we had some peas and carrots that we did for lunch, with our veggies and we did some meats. And we gave her her own little plate of peas with some butter on there and some carrots, and some broccoli. And she ate it up—insane. And she’s 10 month old, I thought, “Oh, my lord, look at her appetite. She’s probably starving to death waiting for real food.” She’s like, “I’m sick of this pureed crap. Give me some real food.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. Plus the teeth are coming in. So it’s a natural progression, right?

Evan Brand: At six months, you may start to add in some smooshed peas, some smooshed avocados, 95% of it doesn’t get in the mouth. It’s more of that tactile play experience. But eventually it gets in there and the teeth come out. And then you can start introduce it. And you’re doing a great job with how you’re doing it. Keeping it mashed, keep it simple, staying away from the hyper-allergenic food. That’s great.

Evan Brand: Yup, yup. So we have uh—we gave her a little bit of chicken yesterday, too, which she did fine with. It was very plain, not much seasoning on it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Evan Brand: Just some—some baked—pieces of some baked uh chicken thighs and she loved it. She ate it up. So it’s a lot of fun—a lot of fun—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it.

Evan Brand: to eat healthy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome, man. And well, it’s great little Friday, here in Austin. I’ll be uh—doing a little waterskiing this weekend.

Evan Brand: Nice.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Really excited about that. Any plans for you? Well, uh—we’re gonna go scope out—scope out some eco-friendly uh—paint and flooring options. And figure out what we can do about—about this house, so—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I love it, man. Excited about it. Keep me posted.

Evan Brand: Sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And everyone listening, we appreciate your attendance. If you like these live ones, these live podcast, give us feedback. Let us know; like it; share it; give us a five-star review on iTunes as well. We’ll put—we’ll repost them on iTunes. If you listening on iTunes right now and you wanna see Evan and I go back and forth, duking it out in the flesh, click the link below so you can watch the uh—YouTube link. And uh—we’re excited to continue to do more of these and share more information.

Evan Brand: Take care. Have a great weekend.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Evan, my man, take care, buddy. Bye.

Evan Brand: Bye.


References:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/01/29/ear-infection.aspx

https://www.cdc.gov/

http://www.designsforhealth.com/

http://www.silverhealthinstitute.com/dr-gordon-pedersen-medical-director/

http://www.lalecheleague.org/nb.html

https://www.westonaprice.org/

https://www.amazon.com/Head-Strong-Bulletproof-Activate-Faster/dp/0062652419

notjustpaleo.com

Products mentioned:

JustinHealth GI Clear-3

Xlear

Dave Asprey’s Bullet Proof Sinus Rinse

Nasaline

Citricidal Ear Drops

Similasan Homeopathic

Infantis Probiotic

Ther-biotic Complete for Kids

Hydrogen Peroxide, 3%

Thyroid and Nutrient Deficiencies Live Q & A – Podcast #125

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand dive into an exciting discussion all about thyroid. Listen carefully as they engage in a dynamic conversation with the listeners and share some valuable information regarding their functional medicine approach on issues relating to thyroid; its connection to adrenal health, gut health, nutrition, and infections.

Learn about the hyper- and hypo- symptoms related to thyroid issues. Find out how other conditions like leaky gut and other infections are linked to thyroid health. Gain valuable information on different tests used to assess thyroid health and rule out other conditions contributing to thyroid issues. Increase your awareness about the different sources, like foods, supplements, and metals which all impacts thyroid function.

In this episode, we cover:

04:19   Thyroid and its connection to adrenals and leaky gut

12:50   Testing for Autoimmunity

16:42   Infections and Thyroid Health Connection

21:35   Cortisol Lab Test for Adrenal Issue

28:36   Thyroid Symptoms and Assessment

32:23   Iron

37:20   Gluten and its connection to leaky gut

54:23   Mercury

58:25   Iodine

itune

 

 

youtuve

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: YouTube as well. Any questions, feel free to type them in. Today’s podcast will be on thyroid. Evan, can you hear me okay?

Evan Brand: I sure can. You sound good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome, man. We are live. What’s going on, man?

Evan Brand: Oh, not too much. Like I told you, somebody in France has had a fun weekend with my business credit card. So uh – besides that, everything is good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool, man. Yeah. Well, at least you got a capital one card, so you’re pretty well protected, right?

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s awesome. So we’re live on Facebook and YouTube. Again, better to be on YouTube, my opinion coz you get to see Evan and myself. If you’re watching me on Facebook right now, we’re a little compromised. We only got my feedback. You’re not gonna hear Evan’s side of it. So feel free and check out YouTube.com/justinhealth to be able to see Evan’s pretty face and be able to get some questions there. But we will answer questions on Facebook Live, too.

Evan Brand: Cool. So today we wanted to talk about thyroid. There is many lab test out there that you can get. Still, conventional doctors are not running the lab tests that are important, though, some of these antibody markers, some of the reverse T3 markers. Maybe you should briefly chat about that just since people maybe on Facebook. Talk people through why is this happening? Why are these conventional doctors not running these other important thyroid markers? Why is it just TSH and some of the other boring stuff?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great question. And again, today we’re talking about thyroid and we talked about this topic a lot, done a lot of videos on it. I have a book coming out on this very shortly as well. So I’m just kinda do a brief overview. Feel free and check out Evan’s page not just Paleo.com and his podcast from more info as well as mine. We’ll give you more info here today. Hopefully we’ll be able to have a live interaction. But Evan’s question is for the Facebook live listeners. “Can we get podcast live on YouTube, too?” is the question about conventional thyroid issues versus functional thyroid issues. And this is a big difference, and most people they go and get help from their conventional physicians on matters of thyroid issues. They think that their conventional doctor is ruling them out for thyroid issues and they may, if it’s an extreme thyroid issue. You know, very, very high TSH, extreme thyroid swelling, uhm – maybe while hyper-symptoms if their grades are on the hyper side, or if they have a lot of thyroid destruction, or goiter things. They may get picked up by conventional testing, but many patients they aren’t getting picked up on conventional testing because they’re kinda in no man’s land. Conventional medicine looks at things like an on and off switch. You’re either healthy, right? The light’s on. Or you’re unhealthy, the light’s off. And we know in functional medicine world, that light switch is more of the dimmer switch, right? The light may be on halfway, right? You’re halfway healthy; or another way to look at it, you’re halfway to not being healthy. But it may not be all the way off. Maybe just flickering a little bit. And unless you’re all the way off, what’s gonna happen is they’re not gonna see anything wrong with your health issues regarding your thyroid. And they’re not gonna make any recommendations for interventions. And that’s the biggest problem. With thyroid issues, looking from the conventional to the functional medicine realm. And also, you have to look at the tools that they have right there. One tool – most part two, you’re gonna have some kinda surgical intervention or you gonna have some kind of uhm – pharmaceutical intervention. None of which typically fixes the root cause of what’s going on. Especially when we understand that thyroid issues are 90% autoimmune in nature. I’d say at least 50-90%. So we know if it’s autoimmune, and we don’t fix the underlying cause of why the autoimmunity is there, right? Then the underlying mechanism of the antibody is in the immune system attacking the thyroid tissue is still happening in the background.

Evan Brand: That’s terrible. I mean we’ve got thousands of people at this point who we work with, where they’re on thyroid drugs, and they still feel terrible. And I’ll go back and say, “Hey Doc, look, give up my Synthroid or other pharmaceutical, I still feel terrible.” And they’re just gonna up the drug more and more and more. So it’s like you’re jamming this gas pedal down, but you are not figuring out what’s the issue in the first place. And so for us, we’ll always gonna be looking at the gut; looking for infection; seeing what could be going on; why is there some type of attack going on. And then also looking at adrenals, too. And figure out what’s the adrenal thyroid connection. Maybe you could brief people on that a little bit? How someone with adrenal issues could have thyroid issues and vice versa.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So Evan, your question was looking at adrenals thyroid issues, we also have a listener question as well, talking about thyroid and gluten sensitivity. I’ll try to intertwine with the two answers. But again, adrenals are really important because you have cortisol production coming from the adrenals, which is important for managing stress and inflammation. Also, generally energy via blood sugar. Also, cortisol – is they differ healthy thyroid conversion. So if we have two high cortisol, or if your stress response is too high, we’re kinda in a Stage I adrenal issue that can block thyroid conversion. So we have this T4 thyroid hormone that gets converted down to the T3. And T4 is relatively inactive compared to T3.  So we have to make this conversion. There’s a lot of things that are needed for that, whether it’s selenium, or zinc, or vitamin A, or other nutrients to help make that conversion. But cortisol, from a hormonal perspective, is also needed. So if we’re too low on our response, right? We have this HPA axis, this regulation, the brain, the agent P, the hypothalamus and pituitary are hypo functioning. They’re dysregulated like a broken thermostat in your house – doesn’t turn on the heat, or turn on the air conditioning. That same thing is needed to help make that conversion from T4 to T3. So we have depleted adrenals that can strongly, strongly be an inhibiting factor of thyroid conversion. And also, if we have too much stress, one of the mechanisms the body does to regulate the stress response, is to make more reverse T3, which is essentially like taking uhm – the clip by the – your gun and putting blanks in there. So they kinda – they fit into the – into the magazine. They fit into the cartridge, right? But they fire, but that then you don’t get the same metabolic effect. You don’t get the increase in energy; don’t get all of the hormonal benefits; you don’t have the warmness and the increased blood circulation; and you don’t have the degradation of cholesterol and other hormonal byproducts. So you can see that the adrenals are intimately connected. Now answering the person’s question here on gluten. Gluten is really important because that’s a big strong – That’s a big stimulator of leaky gut. So gluten exposure can drive leaky gut. What it does is it increases zonulin, which unzips the tight junctions in a lot of patients, even people that are necessarily having a response to gluten. It shows that there is still uh – intestinal permeability that’s happening. And the more food particles that get into the bloodstream, the more LPS is in the gut, the more that can unzip the gut, the more – allow more food particles in there, and create more immune stimulation. And it’s also inflammatory in the gut, too. And also can create this concept known as molecular mimicry, where the immune system sees the surface proteins, and it can mistakenly identified it is the thyroid, and it starts attacking the thyroid tissue, creating more inflammation. And that can cause these thyroid follicles. So still, that hormone is creating unbalanced levels.

Evan Brand: And this could all come from gluten exposure, you’re saying?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It can all come from gluten exposure. Gluten is one strongest stimulators of leaky gut, along with distress, along with LPS, which is a compound produced from bacterial overgrowth, right? So the worse stomach acid, the more stress we have, the more essentially we’re not breaking down our food, the more we’re gonna have bad bacterial overgrowth that’s gonna increase LPS, that’s gonna unzip those tight junctions even faster, which is gonna create more immune issues, more food allergy issues. Because think about it, right? The immune system shouldn’t be getting revved up to deal with food; shouldn’t be getting revved up to deal with the digestion. So the more that’s happening- well what that means is that your immune system is going in overdrive. One of the major reason why people are when they’re sick – think about it. Because their immune system sucks up so much energy. So the more you’re revving up your immune system by just consuming food, you’re gonna be constantly tired. And that’s just gonna drain your adrenals, and drain your thyroid, and increase that thyroid autoimmune attack.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. So I mean, we got the zonulin. What’s the link there between the zonulin and LPS? So are these connected at all? Or are these going up and down in relationship to each other?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes. So the more zonulin you have, typically the more leaky gut you’re gonna have, right? So vitamin D is actually a zonulin inhibitor. So the more zonulin you have, the more leaky gut. So LPS will increase zonulin. Infections will increase zonulin. Gluten will increase zonulin. And that basically, if this is like Parker jacket, you’re wearing that’s kinda like unzipping those tight junctions and then basically food particles can get in there.LPS particles can get in there. When LPS flows to the brain and makes it way up to the brain, leaky gut, leaky brain that LPS can create inflammation in the brain which feels like brain fog, which feels like mood issues, which feels like depression, which feels like anxiety. And this is really hard for a lot of people. Getting back to Evan’s question on gluten and the brain, is people may have a gluten issue. Think that well gluten has to cause digestive problems diarrhea, bloating, gas, reflux constipation, diarrhea. But it may not – It may be causing depression, anxiety brain fog, poor memory, poor uh – just word recall. And you may have a gluten issue, but it may not be even because by – you know, you may not see it because it’s not those conventional symptoms. And again, that same thing is gonna create thyroid issues, too. Coz that same mechanism that opens up the lining of the blood-brain barrier and the brain, also affect the gut, which then creates that more autoimmune thyroid attack.

Evan Brand: Well said. And there’s a lot of people that justify eating gluten to us. Whether it’s like organic wheat, or they’re doing some type of like sprouted wheat, or something like that. But gluten is gluten, and even if you’re not celiac – now there is research that shows that celiacs are gonna have30 times higher zonulin levels than a non-celiac. So massive, massive leaky gut in the celiac person in comparison.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: But still, we could even talk about the study. It’s Scandinavian Journal of Gastroenterology. It showed that gliadin, which is a gluten protein can affect zonulin even in people without the gene for celiac.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: And so basically they said, “All gliadin, regardless of what – whether you are celiac or not, it’s still going to activate zonulin, therefore leaky gut, therefore this LPS, these endotoxins are gonna get in there.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: Which is crazy. And – and I love that. I love that the science because then you and I aren’t the bad guys when we’re telling people to get rid of gluten. It’s like, “Look, here is the research.” Yeah, maybe you don’t get a – acne from gluten, but you still causing leaky gut, regardless. I love that we can actually prove that and it’s not just up for – it’s not just our opinion coz we’re the nutrition guys.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s the key thing that you mention there, Evan. The zonulin and the gluten can trigger the leaky gut and you may not necessarily have an autoimmunity, and the question is the more stressed you become, the more compromised you become, the more your toxic burden, your stress burden, the more  your – the physical, chemical, emotional stress buckets get full. That’s where your body’s ability to adapt to stress really becomes inhibited. And again, the biggest mechanism really is, leaky gut. Even if you’re not necessarily gluten sensitive, you may be getting a leaky gut, which is adding stress to that stress bucket, right? It’s decreasing stomach acid; it’s decreasing enzymes; it’s increasing the ability to have food allergens; it’s increasing transfer infections and SIBO.Because the more your immune system is weakening the gut, the more that force field, that IgA gets lower, and the more critters can come in. So, yeah, 100%. And again a lot of people – I’m not a big fan of gluten because its, one: it’s hard to break down, it’s heavily pesticide, it’s low in nutrient density. A lot of the anthropological data shows that it’s been consumed only about 10,000 years ago, and the people that are consuming it typically have lower bodies – body stature, smaller in uhm – skeletal structure and increased risk for osteoporosis. Again, hunter gatherers tend to be more forgers uhm – starchy tubers, berries. Those kind of things, and obviously, meat and bone marrow. You study how the brain evolved. Really, it was the hand axe that allowed us to carve into bones and access bone marrow, and then creates spears to kill animals, and access that nutrients to grow our brains massively. Omega-3 is fat from the fish. So all of those things were huge in evolving our brain. Now, getting back to thyroid-We got a couple questions over here from the listener’s here on YouTube. So I’m gonna list a couple of. Couple is “how do you test autoimmunity?”Number one: kinda tying it back thyroid. We would look at TPO, or Thyroid Peroxidase antibodies or anti thyroid globulin antibodies; we’ll look for immune attack on the thyroid tissue. Also, we can look at TSI, immunoglubin, which is a marker for Graves’ disease, which is also a thyroid condition; or TSH receptor antibodies for the hyper- TSH receptor antibodies for the hyper; TSI for the hyper; and then TPO and thyroglobulin antibodies for the hypo. Now again, you can have the hypo antibodies, though, and have hyper symptoms initially. So you can kinda be on both stages at one point. So just kinda keep that in mind.

Evan Brand: And then more time, just so people are clear to that. Seems a bit confusing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A lot of people that start out with hyperthyroid – or sorry – hypothyroid antibodies, low thyroid function antibodies, the TPO and thyroglobulin bodies, even though those are markers for a hypo-, Hashimoto’s, they can progress into hyper- symptoms initially because your thyroid follicle have about four months of thyroid hormone stored in it. So what that means is, you can spill out that thyroid hormone many, many months before, even up to a year or so, before you actually get depleted and go low. And that’s where the TSH gets really high. TSH will go high as the thyroid gets depleted, but in the initial attacks, in the first year or so, you may feel more hyper- symptoms even though it is a hypo– Hashimoto thyroid mechanism that’s happening.

Evan Brand: Uh, got it.  Well said. Okay. So, people may self-diagnose themselves with hyperthyroidism, your saying that it could actually be a hypo-caused by Hashimoto situation that’s going on. They just don’t feel the full effects yet coz it’s a new – it’s a new attack. Is that correct?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. So the symptoms they may have is irritability, anxiety, mood issues, difficulty sleeping, heart palpitations, uhm – they may have like tired but wired kinda feeling. Those are the big things that they’re gonna have. I would say, yeah, the anxiety is gonna be a big one. Difficulty sleeping is gonna be a big one. Where the hypo- symptoms star to come in, again you may still have anxiety; you may still depression. The big differences is you’re gonna start to see the hair thinning because thyroid hormones are needed for hair follicle growth. So the outer thirds of the eyebrows go; the hair starts to thin on top; cold hands and cold feet it starts to happen. You may start to see constipation issue, too. You may start to see your triglycerides and your cholesterol go up. Again, infections can cause constipation, too. Uh – increase insulin can also cause increase cholesterol and triglyceride, too. So there’s other things. But that’s a general indication, is the cold hands, cold feet, the fatigue, the hair loss, the constipation and the increase in lipids you’re gonna see. That’s why you wanna test full thyroid panel, which is gonna consist of TSH, brain hormone, T4,inactive thyroid hormone (free and total), T3, which is converted peripherally 20%, and 80% throughout the body (free and total) and obviously you T3 uptake. You can look at thyroid binding globulin, which can go up or down if you have PCOS or on birth control. And then also reverse T3 and all the antibodies I mentioned.

Evan Brand: Yes. So I’ve also16:19read about another one that I’ve not seen used very much called TRAB, thyroid stimulating hormone receptor antibody, but it says that the antibodies are only ordered when someone is hyper- . And a positive result for that usually means great. So I’m not seeing that one that often, though.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s just a different name for I think the TSH receptor antibodies. Like TPO also has a like a name called,microsomal antibodies. So again, typically it’s the same names. So TSH receptor antibodies that’s probably another name for that, just like the microsomal is the same name for TPO.

Evan Brand: Uhh. Okay, got it. Now should we talk about – Is this is the time we should talk about the link between infections and thyroid health? Because people that were looking at, we’re not just gonna look at thyroid, we’re gonna look at the gut, too. And the average between us is about 1 in 3 of having infections. You know, every third person is gonna show up with infection. Sometimes even – you know those weak. Sometimes it’s 9 out of every 10 people has a parasite or other infection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. So we have a few questions coming on the uhm – YouTube Live board here that we’ll kinda tie in. But yes, so the big infections that can affect thyroid and can increase that thyroid autoimmunity: H. Pylori, okay, Yersinia, Enterocolitica, blasto, E. histo. Those are gonna be the big ones that are really gonna affect the thyroid. Even Lyme has a specific amino acid pattern that can create autoimmunity to the thyroid. So for sure, those are the big ones. You know, there’s been study showing that when you eradicate H. Pylori – It’s Italian study out there, that thyroid antibodies significantly drop. I have a video on blasto, right? Blasto infections are resolved, antibodies drop. Same with Yersinia, infections drop. As you attack Lyme, antibodies drop. So that can be a big stimulator and drive more leaky gut, more zonulin, more immune stress, which then creates more stomach acid and enzyme environments, which creates more adrenal stress, more thyroid stressed, and more nutrient deficiencies which perpetuate everything. So you can see, if don’t get to the root cause in this, that’s fine. You can go see your conventional medical doctor to make sure your TSH isn’t elevated, right? But in the end, you’re still gonna be suffering. And that’s why I have so many patients then I know you do as well that have all these symptoms. And I’ve seen a doctor for over a decade and are just tired of it. Alright, you know, this can’t just be my thyroid and all that we done is on 50 mics or 100 mics of Synthroid and that’s it. We can’t do anything else. They know there’s something more and that’s why they are reaching for people like you and myself, Evan.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well in toolbox, it’s just not there, right. I mean, it’s not their fault. They’re just doing all that they’ve got. That’s the only tool in the – in the shed. The surgery or wait till you have some type of disease, or some big nodule, or a goiter or something crazy. And now, okay, now we have to do surgery.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And a lot of people are talking about, “Well, what if you don’t have antibodies coming back on your thyroid?” My personal take on that is, above 40% comeback false negative. So it’s negative, but it could be positive. So what does that mean? Well, typically I’ll run the antibodies on someone at least three or four times before I say that they probably don’t have – they probably don’t have an autoimmune issue – at least 3 or 4 times. Now, the gold standard is a biopsy. Still going with a needle aspiration, and they poke it into the thyroid, they’ll if the tissues have any lymphocyte infiltration. So there’s an immune response going into the thyroid. So you can also have – you know your conventional physician palpate it. They’ll typically reach around your neck. So here’s my Adam’s apple, so it’s down just maybe a centimeter, and then out 1 or 2 cm. So it’s right here. And then you can typically run your finger right across it, then you can touch and push from one side to the other, and just feel the surface. See if it’s smooth, and then you can swallow, and feel that structure. And you can feel like a little nodule or a little bump and that’s possible. A nodule can typically mean autoimmunity or can mean an iodine deficiency. You can go to your conventional physician for that. I talked about the needle aspir –aspiration, but I don’t recommend unless you have – must you really want to know a hundred percent. The next more conservative approach would be a thyroid ultrasound to see if there is any swelling at all. Yeah. And that will be – those will be – My first line of defense would be, “Alright, let’s do your antibodies.” Second line would be ultrasound. I typically wouldn’t recommend the needle biopsy unless you are more worried about the cancer side of it, right? If I’m more worried about cancer then we may do that, or we may do a thyroid scan. But again, those are more invasive. I really only want to see those if we’re trying to rule out cancer. Coz typically the ultrasound and the antibodies will be the best. And we know, uncontrolled Hashimoto’s can lead to cancer, right? It increases your risk of cancer. So everything we’re doing is actually decreasing someone’s thyroid from progressing to a mandibular, papillary, follicular cancer. That’s – that’s the goal. So regarding that piece, everything we’re doing is gonna work either way because we’re mitigating the gluten in the food; or reducing the infection load; or upping the nutrients to help lower antibodies and help the thyroid convert; or making all diet and lifestyle changes and getting rid of the infection, which are gonna help improve the thyroid conversion, activation, and  the upstream signaling downstream.

Evan Brand: Early on in the chat, someone asked, “How should one read the cortisol lab test for adrenal fatigue?” “What numbers indicate the issue?” That’s gonna depend on the lab. Justin and I really like Biohealth, especially because they’ve got a brand-new test that were using now, which is six-point cortisol test. So any practitioners that are using a four-point cortisol test on you-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Yup.

Evan Brand: They’re outdated. They need to get with the –the times. With the 2017, six point is the new one. And how can you read the numbers? Well, typically there’s gonna be like a high patient line, a low patient line and then you would wannabe right in between those sandwich. And it’s gonna depend. So other labs are gonna have different – you know, different markers, different reference ranges. So for us to read a reference ranges to you, will be really boring. Uh – but basically long story short, you wanna be perfectly sandwiched in between those two lines. And it’s very rare that we see somebody in that. Most of the time we’re gonna see a low cortisol picture. And this is a low-free cortisol.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Exactly.

Evan Brand: They’re gonna be low pretty much all day. And this is for most people. And so, then we have to keep digging deeper.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: We don’t just throw them a bunch of adrenal support and say, “goodluck” We gotta figure out what – why is this happening?  Is there a lot of emotional stresses, or chemical stresses, or thyroid issues, or parasites? And these are the other pieces of the puzzle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So you made some really good points there. So with the adrenal, the car test, the adrenal, the uhm – the cortisol-adrenal response, especially in the morning. Cortisol starts off low in that first initial bit of waking up, and really pops up in the first half-hour to one hour after waking. So Evan and I are looking more at those types of test to see how that cortisol awakening response is happening in the morning. Coz cortisol is so important for thyroid activation to prevent T3 pooling, which is T3 not getting into the cells, as well as to prevent reverse T3 up-regulation, right? Reverse T3 is the uh – the blanks. The blank bullets that fit into the magazine that prevent the real bullets from getting fired. The real thyroid hormone being the real bullets, upregulating your metabolism. So those are the things that we’re looking at. And I agree, cortisol, and low cortisol, and low thyroid can intimately feel the same, right? We have patients sometimes that will feel like, “hmm, do they have a thyroid issue or adrenal issue?” We’ll run both test and we’ll see their TSH is, let’s say: 1, 1.5; T3 is at 3, 3.2; and their conversion is okay. But we’ll see, “Oh, yeah” their cortisol awakening response is terrible. Their cortisol is low; their DHEA is depleted. If they’re female patient, their hormones are off, right? So we’ll see. We’ll be able to  differentiate the two. And if you’re just going based of a symptoms, and trying to self-treat yourself, it’s gonna be really hard. You start going in one direction over the other. You may not get better. And a lot of patients, they instantaneously wanna go get their thyroid supported and treated first. The problem with that is, you increase thyroid hormone levels, and you already have lower cortisol. You can actually lower your cortisol even more, right? Just go google uhm – Addison’s disease, which is cortisol failure, right? – Addison’s disease, contraindications – And one of the contraindications you’ll see on their thyroid hormone because thyroid hormone can actually lower cortisol more. Coz think about it, right? Thyroid increases metabolism. The more your metabolism is increased, the more you metabolize through your hormones as well. So if we lower our hormones, and you are already at super low cortisol to begin with, you can actually feel worse as well. A lot of people feel worse when they just go after their thyroid and it can really create more problems.

Evan Brand: Wow. Now that you say that, I’m picturing a woman last week who, she was on Levothyroxine for a very long time. Her cortisol levels were like the lowest I’ve ever seen. So I wonder if it’s that drug that’s contributed to her cortisol being even lower than it would have been without the drug. What do you think?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You can see patients that they go on their thyroid support, and they start feeling worse. And it’s just – it’s really difficult because if they’re seeing a functional medicine practitioner, they may lose faith in that person, right? And – and just say, “Hey, I’m just gonna keep on doing what I’m doing. I’m just gonna go back on the Synthroid.” So you have that aspect there, right? And then uhm – also have the fact that you know, what’s primary? A lot of people have in – the adrenal issue is the more primary issue. And if we start treating that first, then we may get the patient feeling better, which then creates more compliance. The more compliance, the more – the more the patient’s gonna follow through on diet, on lifestyle, on addressing infections. And that gives us a better chance to leverage the patients to do the right thing to heal.

Evan Brand: Well said. And plus, if the adrenals get back online, then we know that that conversion from T4 to T3 active is gonna be better. So they may not even need to go to the “thyroid support” if all these other root causes were the biggest thing. I mean it’s a parasite and an adrenal problem. If you fix those two things, is it possible you can get away with never going into, “Hey this is your thyroid program now. We just have to fix the other pieces.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. So uhm – looking at that piece, you’re hundred percent right. I see so many patients, we’ll measure their thyroid temperature like their basal temperature. And again, for basal temps: 97.8 to 98.2 °F is gonna be where you wanna be for your armpit axillary temperature; and then98.2 to 98.6 °F is oral temperature. And typically do that in the morning before you get out of bed. And also do it sometime in the afternoon before you have lunch, and kinda do a general average. And again, a lot of people will be relatively low, and they’ll start to see their temperatures start going up uhm – as we treat the adrenals. One of the big things we see with the adrenals is we see an erratic temperature. The temperature is kinda bouncing around. Anything greater than .3°F can be – can lead to be a sign of a potential adrenal issue via a temp.

Evan Brand: Let me ask this. Let me ask this with you. So you’re saying, .3 difference. So that would mean if you woke up one day and you tested your armpit temperature, let’s say you were 98° flat in your armpit before you got out of bed, then the next day, you’re at 98.3. To you, that’s gonna signify thyroid and adrenal issues. Is that right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So we went from 98 to 98.3?

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So it’d be greater than .3 So if you’re 98-98.4 and we’re consistently seeing this back-and-forth oscillation, so we’re seeing 98, 98.4 or 97.9 and it’s constantly bouncing back and forth greater than .3 that could potentially mean an adrenal issue, right? And because it’s erratic, but at a good level of temperature 97.8 or higher. So we typically mean of an adrenal issue. If we see it low and erratic, let’s say, 97, 97.4, 96.9 to 97.5, then that would potentially be an adrenal and a thyroid issue. And again, temperatures aren’t perfect, right? Like when we assess thyroid, there’s three indicators we use. We use subjective, which in my opinion is the most important. How do you feel? Do you have a lot more hyper- or hypo- symptoms, right? Hyper- symptoms being anxiety, palpitations, mood issues, tired but wired.

Evan Brand: What about sweating? Increased sweating?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: – sweating, irritability, difficult sleeping. Where the hypo- symptoms, again, you can still have the mood stuff; you can still have the anxiety and mood stuff; you can still have some tired and wired – some tired and wired

feeling but typically more tired, though. And then the big thing is the cold hands, the cold feet, the thinning hair, the thinning eyebrows, the constipation. Those are gonna be the big differences. And obviously what trumps any of it, is an increase in TSH or thyroid antibodies are gonna be the biggest distinguishing factor, if it’s TPO or TSH receptor antibodies.

Evan Brand: And I just wanna mention one thing, too. In a lot of cases, the people we’re working with are gonna have both hypo- and hyperthyroid symptoms which can be equally confusing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. Yup. Equally confusing. I mean we look at like the test that we give our patients to assess that uhm – right? The other big one’s losing weight. Losing weight uhm – even though you’re – or unintentionally gaining weight if you’re on the hypo- side or unintentionally losing weight if you’re hyper- side, right? That’s gonna be another, another big one. Elevated cholesterol – another, another big one. So those are a couple of the other ones that I mention there where the anxiety, the excessively sweating, uhm – again, hands shaking, difficulty sleeping, uhm – feeling more warm on the hyper- side. Those are gonna be the other big ones. And obviously having a family history. If your mom, or your aunt, or uncle, or your sibling has a thyroid issue, right? That’s gonna be a big – just, you know, big factor. One of the big questions I do in all my intakes is, are there celiac disease or any autoimmunity that runs in your family? Whether it’s thyroid, or Parkinson’s or MS, or ulcerative colitis, or Chron’s or anything autoimmune related, type I diabetes. And if there is, that really gets me to hone in there. But testing for autoimmunity, conventional medicine typically does it like ANA, or HLA-B27, or an RA Latex like – these are like the conventional, like broad markers for like scleroderma, or like – or celiac, right? Or see, rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus. They’re very non-specific a lot of times. And again uhm – and they typically are late stage markers. It takes a while for them to pop-up.  And again, a lot of people they may be asymptomatic and still have them. So it’s not a real motivating factor for a lot of people. Where some of the things we look at it with the thyroid antibodies, well even just a little bit above like the normal range. So like LabCorp, it’s 33 or 36 for the TPO. Where I think the thyro – the thyroglobulin antibody is anything greater than 1 is positive. So if we’re like at 1.5 or 2, you know – we will look at that and we’re gonna really push for autoimmune changes and autoimmune protocols. We see TPO going above 20, we’ll start to say, “Hey, you know, you wanna be careful with this.” And we’ll keep an eye on that. And then we have the – you know, people are on the thousands on the antibody levels. And we’ve made this change and I’ve seen 70, 80% drops. We take a patient from 2300 down to like 3 to 400, which is a massive drop.

Evan Brand: And so that’s diet, that’s lifestyle, removing infections, supporting adrenals. All those pieces, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. And I got a question here on FacebookLive. I’ll try to connect it in here. And again, I apologize for Facebook Live listeners here. If you’re watching us there, check out the YouTube so you can actually see Evan. I’m gonna try to reiterate the questions so that you can hear it. Uhm – but that will be the best way to get the full conversation. Regarding uhm – question on Facebook Live, he’s talking about iron. Now, iron is really important coz it’s a really important building block for thyroid hormone. And we also need triiron for thyroid activation from T4 and T3, and we need it for just generally carrying oxygen to ourselves, which is really important for cellular metabolism. So if we have low iron levels that could be an issue. Now I did a full video this for people to get back to the iron video to get like the specifics on that. But again, typically we’ll recommend, like in my line, we use an Iron Supreme. It’s a Ferrous Bisglycinate. And we’ll do about 25 milligrams of iron, anywhere between 2 to 4 times a day to help support that. But also, we’ll figure out the root cause. Coz a lot of females, it’s excessive menstruation or hemorrhage. It could be vegetarian and vegan diets, or it could be the x factor of malabsorption from gut inflammation, to low stomach acid and enzymes and not being able to ionize minerals to an infection that’s stealing your minerals.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I’m so glad you brought that up because here I am thinking about myself, and the whole time, I had two parasite infections.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: I guarantee I have low stomach acid. I guarantee I had issues with iron absorption. And people, let’s say, even if you’re eating the best organic grass-fed beef, if you got an infection that is causing stress on the gut, therefore reducing stomach acid; therefore reducing the ability for you to cleave off those amino acids and iron from them – from the meat, you can still have trouble. And what about – what about ferritin, too? Because the iron storage protein, that’s what we’re gonna test. For many times, you’re gonna see, especially women have very, very low ferritin levels where – and you’ve got a woman with ferritin levels you know – in between say 20 and 40. You may be experiencing something like breathlessness, for example. You could definitely have hair loss falling out. Sometimes I’ll hear women say when their ferritin is about 20, let’s say their hair is falling out in clumps. So you wanna get ferritin, which is the iron storage protein. You gotta get that levels tested, too. And we like people to get up, you know, 60, 70, 80 with ferritin just to ensure that – that iron storage protein is actually working. Now – and this is something that I haven’t looked at very often, but I’m curious if you know Justin, if you’ve got low ferritin, are you always going to have low iron as well? Or is it possible that with low ferritin, your iron could still check out okay?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So with lower ferritin, iron serum can pop up, and it can pop up because – imagine like ferritin is like the gasoline that’s in the gas tank, right? And then think of like iron serum is like the iron is actually in the carbonator and then the piston’s ready to be – ready to be combusted, right? So one’s like – iron is like, what’s ready to go that’s in the actual engine and carbonator; and ferritin is like, what’s in the gas tank, right? So obviously the more important one is gonna be what’s in the gas tank coz that gives you the bigger picture, right? You don’t care, you know how much – how much engines – how much fuel’s in the carbonator. It will only take you maybe a couple of hundred meters, maybe a mile. I don’t know, I’m not a big car guy, so – But keep that in the back of your mind. Now the difference is your body has a little bit more of an interplay with other systems. So inflammation can increase iron serum. So that’s why we look at ferritin, but then we’ll also look at it with iron saturation, too. We see iron saturation low, below 25, when we see TIBC or UIBC on the higher side, that means your binding proteins are growing more and more fingers –  to have more iron. And if we see iron serum up, then we’ll be like, “hmm, maybe there’s some inflammation” We may wanna look at C-reactive protein, right? We may want to look at some of those inflammatory markers. Uhm – if we’re running a gut test, you may look at lactoferrin or calprotectin and see it – inflammation is occurring in the gut. So it really depends on what else is happening in the body. Does that make sense?

Evan Brand: Yeah. It does – it does. So, if you had to pick one or the other. Let’s say, somebody only gave you the option to run some of the specific iron markers or ferritin, what would you pick? For me, I think – I feel like I’ pick ferritin, if I could only pick one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean, ferritin for sure. But an iron panel is like 30 bucks. There’s no reason –there’s no reason why anyone should nickel-and-dime on that because you don’t wanna compromise $30 getting a complete picture. So I think we run it. We keep doing it for 30 bucks and that’s everything.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that gives you the ferritin, the iron serum, and that gives you the UIBC, the TIBC, the iron stat. So then you have a real complete picture of what’s happening. And then you know, even just looking at someone’s CBC can be helpful coz you can look at red blood cells, hemoglobin, hematocrit and if that’s starting to go low, then we can look at MCH, MCB, MCHC, which is basically markers to see how big your red blood cells are, right? Smaller red blood cells typically mean iron issues; bigger red blood cells typically mean B12, folate and B6 issues.

Evan Brand: Wow. There’s another question. Actually there’s a comment up here by Tonya. She was talking about how she was able to eat gluten and dairy now after she had infections. And I guess she treated those, and now she’s able to eat gluten and dairy. I feel like that depends on the person. Me, personally even if I could get away with it, I still wouldn’t do it because you’re still gonna increase zonulin and leaky gut. Potentially set yourself up for future infections.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. That’s the problem, right? Disaster doesn’t occur in –a day or a week, right? And we know that leaky gut can still happen even without the symptoms, right? We – there’s just been studies where they’ve given people pieces of gluten and they measured symptoms, they didn’t see necessarily an increase in symptoms or negative side-effects. But they saw this increase in zonulin and leaky gut because of it. Now we know that when that happens, you increase your risk of having other issues. So I know there are people right now, we get the same conversation. We’ll be talking to people that have been able to smoke cigarettes and not get lung cancer. Okay, great. Now, does that mean that you’re gonna go out and recommend smoking cigarettes to anyone? No. It’s still not gonna be beneficial. It’s still gonna be inflammatory. It still increases your risk. You don’t know who the people are that are gonna have the negative effects to begin with, right? It’s all like you have that looking glass that you can see in know. And also uh – you don’t know down the road when stress comes on and other things happen. Coz usually it’s not just one thing. It’s like, “great, now this person who’s talking – their stress bucket, they’re already filling it halfway.” So they’re going into with a half-full of stress bucket thinking that they’re okay, right? Alright. So, I got a half full of stress bucket. So now when other things come into their life, they’re gonna overflow faster.

Evan Brand: Agreed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then also – and also other people, that may overfill their stress bucket right away. And so that’s why you have to make sure that you know that some people may be the exception to the rule. They aren’t the rule. And this is where it’s –We have the advantage, Evan, because we see so many thousands of people that we can make correlations and can actually even see causation because we make changes and we see direct changes in the person’s physiology and their symptoms are getting better. So we can’t make – we can’t create all these protocols for the exception to the rule coz there are so many exceptions. There are people that smoke and don’t get cancer, alright? We know that. People that may consume gluten and may be okay, but the majority may have issues. Or they may set themselves up in increased stress bucket, right? Meaning increase their ability to handle less stress, so that when more stress comes on, boom, now they’re laid up.

Evan Brand: Exactly. Yeah. Tonya we had to put you on the chopping block there because for you commenting about saying gluten and dairy and you can get away with it now. You’re speaking for thousands of people that listen and do the same thing. And Justin and I will look at the symptoms of someone, and if there are still health complaints that haven’t been resolved, then let’s say we get the retest on GI-MAP stool test, and we look at antigliadin and antibodies, and I caught the lie detector test. I don’t know if you do, Justin. But it’s uh – when you get the antigliadin antibodies, it’s like, okay, one of three things happen. Either you’ve got gluten, you ate gluten, or you’ve got cross reactivity going on. And so, even if your symptoms are not supposedly there, your body is still fighting internally. There is still this internal battle going on, which is not what we want because then those antibodies can get confused and start attacking other tissues, which we don’t want.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And it’s tough because there are people that we see eat a diet that is you know – highly processed with a lot of carbs. And their blood sugar is relatively okay. And that maybe because they’re naturally more insulin sensitive, or they exercise more. And we see some people that eat the same diet, and they’re diabetic. So what do you do? Like I can’t sit there, and say, “well this person who eats this way isn’t diabetic” that means that diets is fine. No, it’s not. You have to look at the greater picture. You also have to look at what – does that diet now, is it nutrient dense? Is it anti-inflammatory? Is it low in toxins? And no, it’s not. But again, don’t get me wrong. Like dairies are open-ended topic, right? Ghee may be perfectly great. Butter maybe perfectly great.  Raw milk may be perfectly great for some people. But then we go to the pasteurized dairy, we go into more of the yogurts, which could be great, but it may not be. So do – we have to kind of uhm – can have a criteria for all those different compounds, right? Because some dairy may be okay, some may not be okay. And sometimes bread, too. Some people may do okay with bread over in Europe. Or they’ll do fine with sourdough bread coz it’s fermented and has less gluten in it versus, let’s say, wheat bread here that’s conventional. So you got to look at it, too. Some of those things may be okay and may have to be more specifically talked about.

Evan Brand: Yup. She commented back. She says, we’re missing the point. If parasite is the cause, you can go back to the way you were, prior to eating – oh the way you were prior, like eating gluten. We as people, ate gluten for a millennia and now it is the cause of all ills. I’ll comment on it first, and then I’ll let you say something about it. In the modern world, we have a lot more toxins. We have a lot more things that we’re up against, and so gluten, where maybe only would have change someone’s health 2 or 3% 5000 years ago, now,  has the ability to modify someone, tell 50 or 75, or even80% in some cases. We’ll see 80% of symptoms get better without it. So for me, comparing millennia to the modern world, we’ve never had a world like today. So it’s just not really a valid argument.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And the grains aren’t even like– If you look at the biblical grains, they talked about in the diet, and Dr. William Davies totally debunks this. If you look at the grains 2,000 years ago, reference in the bible, these are 12 chromosome uh – grain products versus the ones that they have right now, they’re hybridized and genetically modified, they’re up to 50 chromosomes. The gluten content is much higher and is also the extra stress of potential GMO nutrients, poor soils, as well as pesticide exposure. So it’s not quite the same way. Plus, people have to look at it from this perspective, if you drive around on your car, and you get a flat tire on your car, right? And you change the tire and you put the little – let’s forget that. Let’s just say you’re driving around on that flat tire for like a year, okay? So the flat tire is the cause of what’s happening here. But you drive around the flat tire for a year. That’s like ignoring the stressors of your health. It could be gluten. It could be parasite. But the longer you drive around on the flat tire, the more you front angles out of alignment; the more your suspension goes out of whack; the more your whole shock system in the car becomes stressed. And even if you decide, let’s say a year later, I’m gonna change that tire and put on a nice, fresh tire, which is like cutting out the gluten, managing stress, managing sleep, your car has been compromised where just changing the tire won’t fix it. You’re gonna have to go in for a full frontal alignment. You may have to get your tires rotated; you may need new shocks; your brake pads may have worn unevenly. There’s so many other issues that may happen with the car that where collateral damage from that flat tire being ignored. So just because you, let’s say, it was a parasite issue, and the parasites are now gone; or it’s a gluten issue, and the gluten’s now gone, doesn’t mean you now have nutritional deficiencies; doesn’t mean your enzymes and HCL are now effective; doesn’t mean your thyroid and your adrenals hormone system are now stressed; doesn’t mean your detoxification systems are now stressed, right? So this is what is happening. And other analogy is you’re in debt for 5 years. Great. You stop – you curtail your spending habits but you don’t get out of the hut – but you don’t get 100 grand out of debt by just changing your spending habits today. You need a bailout, or you need a lot more time just to start saving and get that money back up. Does that make sense, Evan?

Evan Brand: Yeah. Or the analogy of the spider web.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: Where there’s other pit of the web that’s affected, too. So for example, we can use me as an example. You look at me when uh – first time I came to your house. You’re like, “Evan, man, you look like you get a parasite.” You just- you just saw it. And I was like, “okay” It’s been a year plus since I’ve eradicated those infections, but I still am using enzymes and HCL because I was in such hypochloridic state that I still need to use supplemental HCL and supplemental enzymes. And I don’t really have an end date in mind where I’m not going to use enzymes because if I’m busy, or If I feel like I’m just not chewing my food as much as I should, to me, I like that nutritional insurance policy in place.

Uhm – there’s another question too that Chris asked earlier. He said, “not to be the dead horse, but isn’t there another marker to show autoimmunity of failsafe?” I guess since he’s asking because a lot of times –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I already answered that one with the ANA and the conventional ones.

Evan Brand: Oh, okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then the TPO. And also the gliadin antibodies be the stool testing we do. And then there’s uh – a test by Cyrex Lab that looks at leaky gut, which could give you a predisposing marker, where it looks at zonulin and occludin toxins which can open up the tight junctions. So that one will be another one when I look at.

Evan Brand: It’s pricey. Have you run that one often? The Cyrex, I mean, it’s like 600 bucks.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I’m not a big fan of that because it doesn’t tell me any of the cause. So if people have infections and their diet is not good, and they have – we’re seeing a low stomach acid and low enzyme environments, it’s not worth it. We just kinda work on treating the cause and then a lot of times, the clinical picture changes. Peoples bloating in gas and all these symptoms improved, which we know that means their digestion is getting better, their absorbing more nutrients. That means there has to be a leaky gut mechanism happening. I’m a bigger fan of looking at causal test versus the effect test. The effect tests are only good if you’re trying to convince someone or that people are skeptical. But once – people that are coming to see us are very intelligent because they’ve already educated themselves. They listen a lot to podcast. They read lots of blogs. They watch a lot of videos. They already get it. They don’t need to be convinced. They just wanna be fixed. So it’s a different mindset with those people.

Evan Brand: Agreed. Well said. And we don’t have people that need to be convinced they have leaky gut. Most of the time, they’ve already self-diagnosed themselves. In many cases, you don’t need to spend – I’d say99.9% of the cases, you don’t need to spend the money on a blood test that’s gonna say you have leaky gut. We could just list off symptoms – boom boom boom. Yeah, you probably got leaky gut. Cyrex, for their food sensitivity test, that is – that is cool one, but even then I feel like it’s a unnecessary in most cases because if you and I are gonna put somebody on like a AIP approach, let’s say thyroid disease did show up, some Hashimoto’s. We’ll have to go AIP and maybe we could try to reintroduce things. But they’re gonna be able to be a better barometer of Austin than the test in most cases. Like, “Oh when I added dark chocolate back in” or “when I added dairy back in” and this is what happen. I feel like that’s more valuable than a blood test.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: Totally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We’ll do a full autoimmune elimination protocols and it’s gonna be very valuable for 90% of people. We’ll go an autoimmune diet, cutting out nuts, seeds, nightshade, eggs, obviously grains, legumes, dairy. And again, for people that are like the gluten fans that are on the message board here, they still aren’t nutrient dense food. If you look at the nutrients, if you look at the other compounds that aren’t gluten-related, right? Let’s look at the fact that some people are intolerant. They just can’t break it down because they’re missing the enzymes to do that. And that any time the food is not broken down, it can create stress in the body just like people that can’t break down lactose. They’re lactose intolerant and then they have diarrhea and bloating. So, some people just may be intolerant to breaking down the protein. Some people may be increasing inflammation because of the lectins and the phytic acid and then the oxalates that are just shutting mineral absorption. Other people may be having the autoimmune issue. So it’s still not a nutrient dense anti-inflammatory low toxin food. It’s not like there’s this missing nutrient that you can get out of gluten or out of these grains that you can’t get in some really awesome nutrient rich vegetables or healthy fruits with –or healthy starchy tubers. Does that make sense?

Evan Brand: Yeah. It does. Now – this is off-topic. But –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s not a missing link. That’s my thing. If people had to say that – we – could show me a nutrient density chart and say, “But Dr. J, you get these nutrients, or the zinc and this is amazing or this, B vitamins”. I’d say, “Okay, but there’s not that evidence that it’s there.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now a great – a great talk on this uhm – what’s his name, out of Harvard there – Matt Lalonde did a great talk at the Ancestral Health Symposium at 2012 on nutrient density. I highly recommend anyone watching that. But when you look at the nutrient density that you’re gonna get in meats, especially organ meats, it’s insane. It just destroys grains. And grains are the lowest out of all those foods.

Evan Brand:  Yeah. Now, we’re – we’re off-topic from the thyroid, but that’s fine because I love that’s it’s a dynamic conversation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It connects in, right? Because-

Evan Brand: It does.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -nutrients help in thyroid conversion, they help with thyroid activation, they help with the adrenal, which helps the thyroid cells. Even though we’re off-topic, we’re gonna do our best to kind of meander our way back to the thyroid.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Now, what I was gonna say was a bit off- topic, which is – well all you’re saying is totally on topic but what I’m gonna say is it’s funny how even some of these professional healthcare companies are now designing supplements, which I’m not gonna even give them the credit of naming these products. But there are gluten supplements out there, where it’s like, “here, go eat gluten, but then here is this enzyme or here’s this XYZ supplement to where you can still try to eat gluten, but you just take these pills with them instead.” It’s like, that’s ridiculous. That’s like covering up the engine light in your car. The light’s still there, but here’s this magic tape that’s gonna hide it. I just don’t think supplements that enable you to eat gluten is a good idea.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now, here’s the deal, right? If you have thyroid antibodies, if you know – if you have objective measures of autoimmune issues, or your heightenly celiac sensitive, another word is – almost like – almost like if you have gluten, like you’re laid up, like you’re just – you’re junk for days on it, I don’t ever recommend cheating with gluten. If you can manage, if you’re really healthy, and you don’t have severe thyroid or antibody markers popping up, then you could try going gluten-free you know, right? It maybe rice, or corn may be okay. If you do that, I typically recommend the enzymes, like the DPP-4 enzymes and we’ll take it with charcoal. But it’s a cheat, and we’re just trying to mitigate it. And we wouldn’t wanna ever do that as a staple to allow ourselves to eat gluten. Now, like myself, like maybe once year, like if I’m in Boston and I’m in the north end, I may have like a cannoli, but I found an alternative uh –modern bakery and get some gluten-free ones that are white flour-based. But if I go, I mean I’ll up the DPP-4 enzymes, increase the charcoal, and the vitamin C in the knack. And that will help me deal with it. Uhm – but again, that’s like – if you look at it, the 2000 meals I have a year, you know – maybe one or two have that in there, right? Not a lot. We’re talking .001% But people who are really, really sensitive or having gut over their health issues, initially you really wanna be puritanical. And then – I’ll kinda dovetail this with Johnny’s question here. Some of the testing that I will do to fine tune, if like patients are on the autoimmune, they kinda reintroduce things back in and they’re still having issues, and not quite sure what works, there will be some testing we’ll do like an MRT is a pretty good test. I’m liking the ELISA / ACT test as well coz it’s not just antibodies, it’s looking at various lymphocytes, too. And I do a combination of the ELISA and I’m – I’m kinda testing the MRT as well. And I’ll actually be doing some blind testing and sending some uh – different vials in with different people with actually my blood on with different names. I’m doing some blind testing on that. So hopefully I’ll do a video on that.

Evan Brand: You ought to try the, if you have it already, I believe it’s the Array 2. And there’s a couple of other Arrays form Cyrex, too. I’m a bigger fan of that than the MRT.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well the problem with Cyrex, though, it’s only looking at Ig or IgA – that’s the issue. So with the ELISA, it’s also looking at T-cell lymphocyte response and you’re not gonna get that picked up on Cyrex. That’s the big issue. And if you’re not exposed to gluten, let’s say we’re doing this test, and “yeah, I haven’t eaten gluten in a month or a couple of months” Well, if the immune system isn’t responding to it coz it’s not being exposed to it, it won’t come up in the test.

Evan Brand: Uhhh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And people will be like, “Oh, look, I’m fine.” But may not be the case. So you have to look at it in a complete spectrum.

Evan Brand: That makes sense. So the ELISA / ACT.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh- hmm.

Evan Brand: And that’s blood.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s blood. Exactly.

Evan Brand: Cool. That sounds great. Well, I feel like we should probably wrap this up. I know this has been a lot of information uhm – if people are interested in your book, then they need to sign up for your email list. I mean – you’re so passionate about thyroid health, it’s definitely infectious. And do we have a date on that? Of this thyroid book? What’s up with that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s done, man. I’m shooting it up to the editor. So we can buff it out and – and you know, I read all – every thyroid book on the market, I pretty much read. And my biggest issue is, you can summarize every thyroid book in like 5 pages.

Evan Brand: I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So I want a book that’s shorter. It’s more condensed. I want every page to be neat. I want every page to be __I want every page to have like action items. People can walk away and really improve their health and then throughout – in a standstill, they can reach out to people like myself and you, to kinda like get to the next level. So that’s where I’m at right now – to fine tune and boil it down. I want to touch just one question. Dale mentioned it earlier, he talked about mercury. And mercury is an important aspect coz mercury can pinch it and affect the thyroid. There’s this study showing that lowering mercury can decrease thyroid antibodies. I have one patient that had thyroglobulin antibodies over 2000 and we saw the antibodies drop below 100. So we saw a 99% drop in antibodies by removing mercury. So we’ll test that. We’ll do challenge test via urine and we’ll use various provocation agents like DMPS, which is 2, 3 dimer propanoic acid, or we’ll do uh – 2, 3 dimer succinic acid, which is DMSA. Or we can even do EDT as well. But I typically do the DMPS challenge and we’ll be able to provoke that and see what’s coming out from the mercury. That can be a big, big uh – kind of underlying revealer of another aspect of what could be driving an autoimmunity, which is the mercury. And again, I know you’ve done the shade testing which looks at urine unprovoked, hair, and blood. Not a big fan of hair and because they don’t tell you an active or chronic uhm – a chronic level. Doesn’t give you a tissue burden. And also, there’s study showing that people that push more mercury out on the hair actually have better detox pathways, and they measure people who push less mercury on the hair, and they actually found that they had more provoked mercury in the urine even though they push less out in the hair, partly because their detox pathway is impaired.

Evan Brand: Wow. I’m gonna try yours coz it sounds like it sounds like I could be getting some numbers that are not what they actually are. I wonder what other heavy metals are impacting this, too? I wonder if cadmium, for example, or aluminum is also gonna impact thyroid. It seems like all heavy metals potentially could. Or do you think it’s specific to mercury. Mercury’s gonna be the biggest?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well mercury is definitely gonna be the biggest coz it’s one of the second or third most toxic compounds in the world. It’s really bad. So that one. Obviously lead is gonna be really bad, too. Because lead and mercury interplay, right? If you look at the lethal dose of one – if you take uhm – the dose, you get hundred rats lined up, and you figure out, you keep on titrating the mercury dose up. So the first rat dies out of a hundred. So you titrate the mercury up, the first rat dies, right? That’s called the – the lethal dose of one, right? The 1, the 1% that kills – the dose of 1% of that kills. And you do that for mercury and lead, so you have the hundred rats, right? One dies of mercury, right? You increase the lead up here or one dies of lead. And you now combine the mercury and lead those together to all 100 rats, they all die. Did you get that?

Evan Brand: Yeah, I sure did.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So what they’re saying is even though it only kills one of here over a hundred and the lead over here kills one out of a hundred, but when you combine it together, and gives it all to 100, all of them die. Meaning that, these metals are synergistically connected and can have exponential effects when added. So if you see mercury and lead together, typically the compounds that we’re using, are gonna be specific to mercury and lead for sure. So you don’t have give a special one for mercury and a special one for lead, right? So you give it and it would globally affect mercury and lead and typically cadmium, as well. And we’d also wanna give extra binders. Crochet talks about this like MC but MCT like modified citrus pectin, MCP actually. Uh – we’d also give maybe charcoal or bentine clays. We’d also use things like chlorella, especially for mercury. And we’d also use things to support detoxification. So in my line, we use heavy metal clear and then we also use DMPS and we use a lot of sulfur amino acid support to run phase 2 detoxification, as well.

Evan Brand: And still eat your broccoli, folks.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. Your cruciferous are gonna be really important for your DIM and Indole-3-Carbinol which all help run phase 2 detoxification.

Evan Brand: Awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, anything else here? Any other questions we wanted to run to? Uh – on the YouTube live here, anything else we can answer?

Evan Brand: I think that was everything.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think we hit it all up pretty well. Oh, I didn’t touch upon this. Let me just hit it real quick. Iodine. Iodine is a really important nutrient for the Iodination process to make thyroid hormone, right? If you look at the T, the T typically stands for- some people say thyroid or tyrosine. And then the 4 number is the Iodine. So you have the Iodination process and then you have the 5 prime, the iodinase that comes in there and it grabs and pulls off an iodine, and activates it and makes it T3. Well, that enzyme that activates thyroid hormone is selenium dependent and comes from the liver. So healthy liver function is really important. But having adequate iron uhm – adequate iron level as well is important, but having adequate iodine is also important. RDA is about 150 to 200 µg a day to at least prevent goiter. Now some people may need more than that. Now you have people like Brown Steen and other doctors that are going super, super high, 2550 mg a day. I’m very, very cautious of doing any high-dose iodine. I have seen too many patients uhm – like literally just lose their hair. Like just like gaps, like handfuls come out and their thyroid has gotten worst. Number one, like if we give iodine and they have autoimmunity, it’s typically months later after we’ve stabilized the gluten, stabilized the adrenals, supporting thyroid, supporting nutrients, supporting the gut, get their diet in shape, get their digestion better and then we’ll start very low and we’ll gradually work them up. But we’ll be checking in, we’ll be monitoring it and we’ll be doing very low doses and then gradually tapering it up or also making sure there’s enough selenium there, enough B vitamins, enough minerals, enough vitamin C. So we’ll make sure there’s a lot of other cofactors coz when you give iodine, it can spit out hydrogen peroxide, which can increase D cell lymphocyte infiltration into the thyroid. So it can exacerbate autoimmunity. So if we do it, we’re doing it responsible. We’re doing a lower RDA doses as a starting point and then gradually working our way up from there.

Evan Brand: So what about working with foods at the same time? So I’ve heard some people, anti-kelp people out there. And I don’t know why there’s some anti-kelp people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, I think you just gotta be careful with kelp just because just coz where it’s coming from, the whole Fukushima disaster two years back.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -radiation. So just gotta be careful. There are some really good sources out there. You gotta make sure it’s not coming from one of those places and number two, there’s a whole list of foods that you can give. Typically, like in my multi- there’s gonna be at least the RDA there, which is great.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Egg yolks are gonna have some iodine as well. Uhm- obviously seaweeds have some good iodine sources. You just have to make sure that it’s not gonna be the Fukushima kind. I’ll get a list right here. I’ll read out a couple of foods that are really high in iodine in just one second.

Evan Brand: I’ve heard strawberries, too, which is interesting. And then I also wonder – it’s hard to get a composition sheet for a Himalayan pink salt. I wonder if you’re gonna get any iodine from pink salt or not?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean there’s some maybe some trace amounts there. I know iodized salt; 1 gram will have about 77 µg. There are some research showing that increased iodize salt consumption did increase autoimmunity. And it could just be that these are the general public. They’re just taking it, they already have a poor diet, and they don’t have the selenium, and the B’s, and the minerals, and the vitamin C in the background. And maybe that’s why that happened. So it’s hard to say. So there are studies on that showing there could be an issue. But things like cod, right? Things like shrimp, uh – things like turkey. Even some navy beans, even some tuna, even some eggs are gonna have some good iodine. I mean one egg is gonna have 12 to 15 µg iodine. So if you do 4 eggs a day, that’s about 60. You got a good multi- that will be 150. Uhm – you have some fish, you got some other food, now you’re like at 3, 400µg. Now you may need to go higher, but you had to work with physician or functional medicine practitioner to be monitoring the antibodies and make sure you have all ducks in a row first, before you go there.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I mean there’s people that will just start covering themselves in iodine. And so that could be a bad idea, you’re saying, coz you could actually increase antibodies, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally can increase antibodies. Uhm- you gotta be careful with that.

Evan Brand: I’m not – for some reason iodine, one of those things and kind of the eggs will call the natural health community that is – it’s been portrayed as very benign. And I remember even in some of the – the classes I was taking down in Austin, I remember a girl in class, she like paints everyday, she was painting her arm with iodine. And she was like, “it’s the greatest nutrient ever.” I was like, “Oh, my Lord. This is out of control.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well painting on your skin for the most part, 80% of it evaporates.

Evan Brand: Uh-huh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The only time I recommend painting it on your skin is if you have fibrocystic breast disease uh – you have a lot of cyst and painful breast tissue. Painting it on the breast tissue can be great coz you’re driving the iodine right into the localized spot, where there’s the cyst, which could help. But outside of that, I mean, if you have –if you need iodine systemically for your body and for your thyroid function, you wanna take it in – in your body. And typically do a liquid potassium iodide.

Evan Brand: So she wasn’t – She probably wasn’t making herself toxic then. She was just turning herself uh – brown.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. 80% of it – you know, the iodine pass test, like the faster it evaporates, meaning the more your body absorb it; the slower it evaporates the more iodine you have. It’s very crude measurement, right? The better test is gonna be like Hakala or I think doctor stated, there’s an iodine loading test. I think it’s 25 to 50 mg of iodine then you test uhm – your urine and see how much GPL. So the goal is, if you pee 90% or more, it means your iodine levels are saturated; if you pee less than 90%, right? You pee less than 90% that means your body grab more of that iodine. So it’s – you’re essentially low. That’s the theory on that. 90% and more, you’re okay; less than 90, you’re low.

Evan Brand: Uhh. That’s interesting.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: But again, regarding iodine, you gotta do it responsible – responsibly. If you’re – think of iodine gasoline on the fire.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Gasoline is not bad when you put it in your car. But if your car is on fire, and you start putting gasoline in your car, you can create problems, obviously, right? That’s what’s kinda happening in your thyroid. You wanna look at everything holistically. And you want the body system approach that Evan and I use, the key three, looking at the hormones, ATF( adrenals, thyroid, female hormones); ATM (adrenals, thyroid, male hormones), gut and infections, putting nutrients, digestion, better food, allergies, and then looking at detox and nutrients, as well.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. Go to justinhealth.com to schedule consultation with Justin. Check out the thyroid videos series. He’s got hormone videos series, too. You’ve got the supplement line there. And then, you could check out my stuff, too, notjustpaleo.com or you could just google either of us. Justin, or Dr. Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Evan Brand. You’ll find us both. And stay tune because this is really fun. And I don’t know about you, but I’m loving this. I think maybe 3 to 5 times more than just doing an off-air podcast coz people are asking questions. And it’s like shaping and structuring this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: This little organic podcast ball.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I love it. We love the questions. We like just having this little kinda dialogue back and forth and “ooh, someone responds over here, let’s see what they said” and we kinda see if we can interject it into the conversation. That’s great. Totally m__we’re on the fly.

Evan Brand: Love it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Like impromptu, right? It’s like we’re on the stage, doing a little impromptu podcast.

Evan Brand: There’s no cuts; there’s no edits; there’s no –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Overall man, this is it.

Evan Brand: This is – this is the real deal. This isn’t – there’s not a makeup person coming in and touching you up here. I mean this is the real deal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know. If you guys are liking this, we’re gonna do it a lot more. We just need thumbs up; we need likes; we need shares; show us the love. Go like Evan’s channel. Share the podcast. And then we’re gonna do more of this, and get everyone’s questions answered, and just provide more value. Like how could we provide more value to our listeners and improve your health.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And I think I mentioned it already. But if you wanna schedule a consult with Justin, just go to the website, justinhealth.com you could schedule the consults there.  And same thing for me, notjustpaleo.com and we’ll chat with you all next week. And let’s do something next week, maybe – maybe on like clinical success stories we’re having in the practice.

Evan Brand: Well that means they’re coming in –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And just like, maybe go over our top 3 stories of the week. Coz we see – you know, so many patients. We can pick out 3 easily.

Evan Brand: Well, yeah. I thought of something, too. Uh- actually, a woman who was struggling with fertility is now pregnant. And I figured, getting her on and talking about her story with parasites and how her fertility was compromised due to the infections. Getting her on the air, maybe asking them– we have to make it fun for them, too. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: For them to take time out of it, get them to share their story and just kinda talk them through what we did. I think that’s- that’s the most remarkable part of all this, is getting to hear the feedback, which a lot of people, they’re not getting to hear the stories. And this is what keeps us motivated and keeps us going.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I love it, Evan. That sounds awesome, man. Well, let’s connect real soon, brother.

Evan Brand: Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You take care. Bye now.

Evan Brand: Bye.


References:

www.notjustpaleo.com

YouTube.com/justinhealth

Dr. Andrew Hill – Improving brain function, baldness and head trauma – Podcast #118

Dr. Justin Marchegiani has a special guest back again today, Dr. Andrew Hill. For this podcast episode, they talk about brain function, baldness and head trauma.

Discover the different medications or drugs that are used for ADHD, anxiety and sleep issues and how they will affect people in the short or long term. Find out how mindfulness and meditation can help with brain function and training. Get some information on insulin and the history of gluten as well as a brief history of genetics and evolution. Learn what should be done in cases of head trauma or brain injury when you listen to this episode.

In this episode, topics include:

01:40   Biofeedback/Neurofeedback

14:38   Medications and Smart drugs

40:16   Insulin

48:22   Gluten

56:48   Baldness

62:35   Brain injury/trauma

itune

 

 

youtuve

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, there! It’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. We got Dr. Andrew Hill on the show today. Dr. Andrew is a grad over the UMass Amherst School. I went to school as well so we’re fellow alums, also a PhD grad over at UCLA. Dr. Hill, it’s been a while, but glad to have you back on the show.

Dr. Andrew Hill: Yeah, thanks for having me, Justin. I’m guessing a lot has happened for Beyond Wellness, as well as on my end of things, the past couple of—few months.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool! I’m excited. What’s new on your neck of the woods?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  We are—and we, I mean, a new company I’ve been working on called Peak Brain, we’ve been opening up brain training centers, neurofeedback centers. We’re also doing a lot of free mindfulness instruction, you know, I’m sure we talked about this last time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Just to review a lot of different aspects on you know, call it biohacking, call it therapy, call it exercise. There’s lots of different avenues into this space and for many people, different choices might make more sense towards you know, free things–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Like mindfulness and meditation where you’re always carry around the equipment. Once you know how to do it, you can always practice. So I have this focus, at this point of bringing tools to accessible, or bringing the accessibility to people. So the idea is to provide a lot of you know, open mindfulness instruction and these training centers as well as the higher tech tool that people can sort of you know, buy services and getting a lot of hands on training and qEEG and neurofeedback. So I’m taking it more to the—to the fitness and out of the clinical level as much as possible these days.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you’re doing more qEEG or neurofeedback work?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, the—most of the neurofeedback we do is EEG-based–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, got it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Neurofeedback or biofeedback. We also do HEG, which is another form of neurofeedback. We do a little bit of HRV, which is biofeedback referral. Let me—let me break–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  This down for one second. There—there’s some overlap in terms. All neurofeedback is a form of biofeedback but not all biofeedback is neurofeedback. The difference really—the central nervous system as—as you know is a pretty savvy guy, but the body is—some of the systems is everything encased in bone essentially. So—all the nerves are inside the spinal column, the brain and so–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And everything outside is—is peripheral nervous system, and so broadly you can define neurofeedback as central neurofeedback or sorry, central neurofeedback or peripheral biofeedback.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And that’s for the line that—that is getting drawn, but it’s a little blurry because you can do things centrally, like HEG where your training blood flow voluntarily and EEG is a form of central biofeedback where it’s involuntary thing—so the lines blue quickly because the body is not divided into, you know, discrete compartments that are purely isolated from each other in—in a system, so it’s a little bit of complicated but that’s probably more information than you need—on—on the differences. So–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool. So if someone is out here, maybe they have excessive sympathetic nervous system overdrive or an adrenal dysfunction–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right? Neurofeedback and/or EEG tend to be a really good way to dampen that’s—over sympathetic, over fight or flight response that’s happening. So if someone’s having that, they’re making the diet and the lifestyle changes, maybe they’re on an adrenal program using some adaptogens and nutrients and they’re stabilizing their blood sugar, making themselves be a more—a fat burner, would the next step be, if they’re doing all these things correct, how would they incorporate–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The EEG neurofeedback into their life?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  The next few steps in terms of you know, adding tools and technology to support, you know, health as well as transformation would be probably to add in either peripheral biofeedback tools like HRV, like all that skin response, like mindfulness, like meditation practice and then I would say the next level is adding in the sort of higher tech tools like the EEG neurofeedback. And—and to enter that stage, you sim—and if there’s a problem, I mean, for the average person who’s working on stress management or just trying to optimize the performance, you know, you will wanna build things to have a good foundation. If you’re trying to remediate a specific issue, you have seizures, you have ADHD, you got some, you know, problems that’s really getting in your way then you can go right to neurofeedback, I think as a, you know, first line intervention. And for something like that, you start with what is called a brain map, a quantitative EEG ideally and those are usually baseline assessments of brain activity that or then compared to a normative database, and out that you get maps that tell, you know, practitioner like myself how unusual you are compared to a population. And then we examine the most unusual aspects of your brain, how it’s functioning and some of those tend to cohere with certain functional limits or patterns or bottlenecks. You may notice I’m using a lot of very tentative language and that’s because the qEEG is not neuroimaging. It’s statistical analysis. You know, it’s you compared to some distribute—there’s some distribution of—of continuum of function, you know? So it’s really you compared to a bunch of different average people and—and your brain can be special and unique and wonderful, and—and really unusual and still be fine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So qEEG is—is much of an art as is a science. There are a few things in the EEG and the quantitative EEG that are well validated, some diagnostic markers, or other you know, some discriminants, pretty reliably if you have clean EEG, you can spot traumatic brain injuries in people if they are at all significant. You can often or almost always actually spot ADHD. The FDA has a pretty good at this point support of a few discriminants in the EEG that suggests ADHD, including you know, going so far as to support a hardware diagnostic headset a couple years ago as actually diagnosing ADHD passively without any clinical involvement and essentially it’s doing I—I believe it’s—it’s doing a ratios of frequencies in the brain. So you start with these assessment tools to get a peek under the covers, and so the quantified self implication as well as a, you know, remediation benefit and you get a sense of how your brain works and then the next step is to start exercising and training it using you know, biofeedback feedback essentially and we shape brain activity and figure out how that affects function and over time you make changes to the brain. I know we talked about this before, but it’s essentially offering conditioning, not if you could think Skinner not Pavlov–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So we aren’t—we aren’t making you know, a voluntary response happen by providing a—a random thing like—like the bell and pairing it with the stimulants.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes, exactly.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  What we’re doing is instead only rewarding certain stimuli you do. So Skinner, you know, Skinner’s left alone noted Pavlov but it—I think it bears expanding. Skinner trained essentially pigeons to peck along bars or do certain behaviors to get rewards, you know, to turn a light on or you know, hit a switch or something. And a Skinner box is a behavior-shaping device. You don’t just examine how pigeons behave. You examine how they learn so you’re shaping or changing their and the way you do that and operate conditioning is you reward behavior that is near what you want to accomplish, so–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You find what the brain is doing moment to moment, and then you—you know, when—when a certain brain wave moves a little bit or trends in the right direction or stays in the direction that’s when you provide—provide the reward. So over time your—you’re shaping.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You’re just rewarding—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Shaping, right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  A different trend, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And then you move the goalpost and you reward further, you know, development of the trend, the physiological trend and not direction. The—the weird thing about—about the analogy of Skinner vs Pavlov is this is operate conditioning. However, the pigeon knew what it was doing. It was—you know, it was trying different things. Pigeons actually can get very superstitious.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  If you—you know, if they spin around once, and then get rewarded, they will then spin around once and they approach that food bowl and switch again because they’ve learned. Pigeons are like baseball players. They’re so superstitious–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  A little ridiculous.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That is funny.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But in the case of EEG—the—the analogy breaks down because what you’re rewarding, the—the behavior if you will of the brain, a fluctuating EEG that’s happening in a time course that is faster than you can perceive or control. So it’s really measuring sort of the real-time, you know, under 100 milliseconds or time window of what fluctuating in your brain. And you don’t really control things in that time course. You are only perceiving in the like 92 to a couple hundred milliseconds timeframe for most of us. We don’t proceed rapidly and we perceive most of what’s going on, you know, neurologically. And so as it’s fluctuating, reward it and shape it, and over time it changes which was kind of magical and lovely. But it—it’s not the magic of neurofeedback that’s doing that, it’s the magic of the brain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It’s the brain’s ability to interpret a signal, a shaping signal. It’s the brain’s ability to enhance its plasticity in response to a signal. There’s really good evidence now that neurofeedback rams up plasticity fairly profoundly, something called a—an evoked motor potential can be used to measure plasticity of cortex. Essentially, you—you trans—carry all magnetic stimulations and zap a little bit of the brain and see—like over the hand area of the motor cortex and see how much bulk it takes to make the hand jump.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It—it sounds brutal but it’s actually a fairly innocuous little thing they do with TMS, just to see if they’re over the right area. The—there was an experiment a couple years ago that showed that before-and-after neurofeedback. After neurofeedback, the motor cortex respond to a much lower voltage, a much lower, you know, signal before it perturbs or it jumps in responds and changes. And—and so this is a sign of motor plasticity or learning–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know, broadly, that seems to be upre—upregulated regulated fairly rapidly with neurofeedback.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when you’re saying–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  With the other evidence of this. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when you’re saying neuroplasticity, basically your brain is almost starting to rewire itself essentially.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, it’s rewiring itself. You know, I—I think of it sort of like it’s getting younger because–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  For many of us we—we’ve have the experience of being, you know, over plastic. I mean, that’s being a teenager is to some extent. Things just change a little, you know, too rapidly, swing. But there’s this—there’s this proliferation of synapses, of connections between neurons in early seniors,  10 through 14 or 9 through 14, or around 9 or 10 or 11, the brain sort of finishes all this lateralization. It’s often that’s where a lot of final development happens. Post that age is when language acquisition without an accent becomes very difficult, but right after there’s this—there’s this proliferation for a few years or synapses. Massive like overbuilding in some ways. Think of like a forest that is becoming so thick and so overgrown that it just doesn’t have a lot of light getting through it. You know, it’s almost like too much in terms of synaptic density, and then there’s a big period of learning where those synapses change widlly in mid-teen years and many get pruned away, you know, this—this neuropile as it’s called.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It’s pruned away into more discrete circuits. And that’s the time of profound learning and skill development and self-regulation, and other things in those mid-teen years. And so I really do think about you know, the plasticity enhancement features of neurofeedback as sort of rolling back some of the—some of the kid, not the—the decline of synaptic flexibility that was so prevalent when most of us were in our mid-teen years when things were just changing and responding and changing and responding and—and learning was like trivial because it’s just learn, learn, learn, and change and grow and develop. And it all seems effortless, you know? Relative how things feel, you know, 20 years later or 30 or 40 or 50 years later. So—so that’s my goal from all this stuff. Be it nootropics or mediation or neurofeedback. And—and be it for whatever goal, peak performance, substance abuse, you know, remediation if you will, changing your relationships and your—and you’re in control over substance behavior which is hard when you think about it. Getting control of executive function, getting control of aging, getting control of mental illness. These are equivalent in my mind. They’re all about getting some control over this 3-lb blob that uses most of our, you know, glucose and oxygen resources on our body.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And—and learning to take you know, a little more active role if you will in how it develops, how it changes, how—how it has a trajectory of improvement and aging, and learning and growth. So a lot of my focus is—has really swung far towards encouraging and supporting people’s access to these tools.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Interesting and you mentioned a couple of things especially with ADHD, and it’s interesting when you–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because when you compare and contrast, you know, the—the functional, more natural alternatives, EEG, nutrition, functional medicine for like, let’s say ADHD, you also have the conventional options which are pretty mainstream, but they typically involve stimulants–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Methamphetamines, Adderall, Prozac, you know, those type of medications where you’re trying to–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Overstimulate the brain into focus, into the ability to pay attention, how is that different? I mean, obviously, one I see is whipping a horse, whipping a tired horse. The other one is—is much more different and is trying to align the brain in a more functional, more sustainable way.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Can you compare that?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Interesting analogy. An interesting analogy. Let me—let me just talk about medications for a second.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Now I’m not a psychiatrist. I’m a neuroscientist, but I—you know, I know a thing or two about pharmacokinetics–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Of course, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And dynamics and how—how they work. The—in theory, they should not be working. Psychostimulants should not be working by whipping the tired horse. In theory, the CEO of the company is asleep under the desk, and the psychostimulant is like a cup of coffee to get something productive again so they control all the random nonsense going on in all the different departments of the company.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So it—it’s waking up some—an executive that is not controlling thing versus driving an already tired system. I just want—you know, I wanna shift the metaphor a little bit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Because there’s a couple of other classes of drugs that are now used. You mentioned SSRI’s I think.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, Prozac.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, Prozac. Not as used sometimes—on no longer very much in kids and teens because the—the suicide fatality–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Side effects, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Increased risk is pretty high.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  They’ve discovered.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  That’s often not a great course, but the other two classes that are used, some of them promising with—with some promise are mood stabilizers and beta blockers, blood pressure meds that are being used really seem to work for some of the most acute behavioral symptoms.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Are they beta-blockers? That they’re helping to decrease that action potential in the heart and the sympathetics. Is that how it’s working?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Not sure how they’re working. Things like—like Intuniv which is a—what’s that? Atenolol or something. I forget–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  What the—what the generic is.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, it’s basically beta blockers which work great for other things, too. And as well as comorbidity. So I wonder how much is it does ADHD cause anxiety being dealt with better, and you know, but all day long I look at brains that have been labeled ADHD or anxious or other things, and I often find there’s some agreement with labels on the physiology and how it functions, but not complete, you know. And they’re often very coarse and very poor agreement. So I—I will say that—that functional patterns that support the interpretation of ADHD, anxiety, and sleep issues tend to show up together more than they show up separately. So you almost always, if you see two of those three things, you almost always see all three—ADHD, sleep issues, and anxiety.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I know there are potential adverse–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  In terms of—Uh-hmm?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know there are potential adverse effects of the methamphetamines long-term on the brain, so I get in the short-term, hey, you got an exam–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You’re gonna do it to kinda get really get those centers revved but long-term, what’s your take on that?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, well, it depends on the class of psychostimulant. I mean, some things like Adderall–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Adderall.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Since you have a structure similar to—to methamphetamines–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Those things we—we don’t know too much about and—and it’s probably not great long-term. The drugs like methylphenidate, Ritalin–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  That seems to actually be a little neuroprotective but don’t necessarily work for everyone or you know, have—have all the benefits. You know, when I was just post college or in college, I—I need to add Ritalin and it made me really sedated. I was profoundly ADHD, classic ADHD, in you know, even in my 20s, not so much anymore but—but back then I was, and methylphenidate just made me feel numb, you know, Ritalin. And—and it just did not work to control my attention and at that time as a “young” man, I did take Adderall. It worked relatively well and I tried it again about a decade or two later and it my—I have my liver gotten too old. I couldn’t tolerate the side effects. And I—and I think I’m not so concerned about the—the short-term side effect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right. It’s definitely the long-term.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  As you say–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But—but even the short-term side effects can be fairly profound to a developing person. If you’re appetite suppressed, if your sleep’s disrupted, if you have underlying cardiac issues, I—I think that stimulants in general can really provoke a pretty, you know, negative set of consequences in the short-term. I don’t know that we know a huge amount about long-term, but I think that the sort of atypical stimulants like Ritalin, we know are fairly safe long-ish term because of how long people have been on them. And we know that the biggest risk for a lot of the other drugs is more about either sensitivities, like I said, cardiac or other issues or there’s—there’s risk of abuse in—in stimulants, right? There’s often very significant risk of abuse, and I think the problem—that the scope of the problem is actually, even I’m—I’m downplaying it a little bit is actually much more dramatic that I might—that we might suggest because I think ADHD and, therefore, stimulant prescription is so phenomenally rampant and fat outstretched the actual clinical sort of narrow scope focus of pathology that must be addressed. I mean, ADHD is a bucket that has become you know, huge, to swell and catch all kinds of things especially in school systems.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  There are like something like half or three quarters of you know, in some school systems have kids that are on psychostimulants, and have these diagnoses. And I don’t think the diagnoses match. First of all, I think ADHD is only diagnostically relevant when it’s getting in the way and—and it’s so profoundly overdiagnosed that you know, it’s a fraction people who have some attention problems under some circumstances that I would call ADHD—you know, capital A, capital H, whatever.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  The—and prescribed for. Because the consequences are high and this is the medical doctor’s you know, job of course to know this that there are—are side effects you must balance against the desired effects–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And the side effects and stimulants are not significant, they’re better than other things. I’m not sure why the beta blockers work. I have a hunch we’re gonna discovered it’s more about reticular activating system issues.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And thalamic—and thalamic activation of downstate–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Than it’s really gonna be about you know, cortical activation and—and relaxation if you will. But all those things regardless of how they’re working are doing short-term intervention. They’re not teaching their brain how to not be ADHD, but how to sustain your executive function, and sustaining sort of you know, sustain a—a perspective on attention that is resilient and not reactive. That takes some work and you can get there, but it’s not—you know, it’s not rocket surgery. You can get there through mindfulness or meditation, and you can absolutely work on ADHD and other another cluster type phenomena with a short simple mindfulness practice. In weeks, it will start changing your brain. The research is mounting. You can do a lot of mindfulness to—to reign back in executive function challenges that aren’t necessarily, you know, there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I think you can learn a lot by the mechanism of how these drugs work. I mean, if you—if you know about the methamphetamines–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Just the average listener here, they really are gonna stimulate serotonin and dopamine and a lot of your catecholamines, norepinephrine, epinephrine. So if that’s helping, while the question becomes how can we utilize construct of vehicles to increase those neurotransmitters? Also they block the reuptake to so they allow more of these nutrients or more of these brain chemicals to sit in between the pre-and postsynaptic neuron. The problem is long-term, we start to have more degrading or recycling enzymes that break them down faster. So if short-term, it works okay. But in the long-term, you start gearing up more enzymes to break them down.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So the question I guess comes down to what can we do, I mean, on the neurofeedback side to improve these neurochemicals and maybe you want to take it to the diet side and maybe even supplements side, too.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, you can do a fair amount. I mean another benefit of neurofeedback is it really makes your brain more sensitive and sort of reset some this—this acquired tolerance. And we see that in psychostimulants dramatically. You know, a couple weeks into neurofeedback you have to reduce your dose usually because you’re suddenly getting hit with a sledgehammer by—by your psychostimulants if you’re taking the.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  We also see it from things like cannabis oddly enough. You suddenly have to ramp your—your consumption down if you’re a cannabis user because your brain is super flexible.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But some of the—some of the best of research is still coming in. I mean, we don’t really understand nutrition fully in terms of ADHD. And it’s also not a homogenous issue when it’s actually truly present. I mean, there are several variants, some more types of you know, dopamine receptor coding repeats that show up that gets classified as ADHD, and some of them make you more hyperactive but also more resistant to distraction and some of them make you, you know, more distractible but less able to focus—but also able to, you know, almost more able to focus rather when you get checked in. So it—it’s a little bit of confusing space and, therefore, what works for one person is not necessarily what works for other people. But those blog classes like mindfulness and neurofeedback works for pretty much every so that’s why I start there. There’s other things that may work for you. Things like L-tyrosine, which of course is the precursor to dopamine, does work for–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  A certain percentage of people as a—as a support to attention pretty profoundly and I—I have a hunch that it’s working best for those people who’ve either been on stimulants, on who’ve got you know, one very sort of narrow subtype of ADHD where it’s really about a dopa—a dopamine receptor you know, proliferation. And for those people I think L-tyrosine is actually helping in need. There’s no real evidence that supplementing L-tyrosine increases levels of dopamine, but I have a sort of perspective on it where I’m gonna let the dopamine system regulate itself, because you know, anything goes directly to synapse or increases release of dopamine, things like stimulants. Those are always gonna be adapted to by the system because there are supraphysiological. They’re dangerous. They’re—they’re alarming to the brain and the brain has to adapt and, therefore, meaning tolerance, addiction especially in dopamine. So my perspective on this stuff is always to back up a level in the regulatory space if you will and feed the neurons, feed the dopamine neurons what they need to use their enzymatic chain to make dopamine. And there you’ll only get more dopamine if you actually need more dopamine in the moment. I mean I’m really somebody who—who believes that there’s no such thing as a chemical imbalance in the brain. It can’t really exist and there’s you know, massive sweeps of regulatory tuning in terms of receptor density and receptor sensitivity and all kinds of other things like that but my—my perspective on monkeying with the systems is they know how to regulate themselves and any ideas we have about what we’re are gonna be really imperfect at best, and you know, therefore, we’re gonna be trying things that don’t make sense. I think we got lucky with you know, SSRIs as mentioned earlier, Prozac. We now know that Prozac, yeah, if does work on serotonin, but not necessarily to increase it, you know, all sorts of neurons have autoreceptors that measure the amount of serotonin in the synapse that they are releasing into the synapse.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And if SSRIs decrease breakdown and, therefore, increase synaptic levels of serotonin, the autoreceptor shuts down release. So actually you have to adapt to it, you get sort of lower tonic release of serotonin in your—in your brain than you—than you did before you started taking whatever it was. You know, the SSRI. That’s—that sounds like that can’t possibly be true because serotonin’s the happy chemical and it—it’s antidepressive. It’s just not. I mean, if you—there’s something about the anxiety, it’s a little more closely linked to serotonin. But the antidepressive—antidepression effects of the SSRIs as well as anything else that lists depression, be it learning new things, be it exercise, be it whatever you’re dealing. The final common pathway if you will of depression release seems to be increase of BDNF. Brain derived–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Neurotropic factor.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Neurotropic factor, right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  In the hippocampus, which is all about learning and integrating information. That—that’s kinda what that job is and that’s really the key, yeah, I think. The key plasticity if you will, neuroregulatory factors. So it’s all about, I think the name of the game is BDNF. And depression is elicited by raising it through indirectly, you know, many steps back by—by tweaking serotonin and the brain responds to that loud signal by—wait, what’s going on? And getting a little more plastic if not integrate the slightly bizarre signal it’s getting from the SSRI is my—is my take on it. It cannot be, you know, perfect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about B vitamins? How about B vi—I find B6 or P5P–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Pyridoxal-5-phosphate–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Sure. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Is deemed really important to help convert some of these amino acids in the brain.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Oh, yeah, all—all kinds of reasons. I mean, just look at the Krebs cycle,

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Just think back to our physical biology, there’s all kinds of amazing things that B vitamins do to the Krebs cycle, specifically some of the, you know, nicotinamide riboside, NA—NADH in terms of electronic streams. There was some related research—sorry—there’s related compounds in the Krebs cycle called alpha-ketoglutarate.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Which recently some research came out of UCLA, about a year ago, that showed that the anti-aging benefits in model organisms, C. elegans in this case. The anti-aging benefits of alpha-ketoglutarate are like 10 times higher than resveratrol in the same organisms and through a differnet mechanism—we know the resveratrol activates sort of the stress response gene, CERT, and that seems to be how they cause, you know, the sort of French paradox and other you know, animal model documented life-extension things. But the—the alpha-ketoglutarate is operating in a different place. It seems to be tweaking the Krebs somehow and, therefore, optimizing energy production. So all the other thing that tweak CERT, like caloric restriction, like cold stress–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  They do extend lifespan in model organisms but they do it at the cost of either mobility or reproduction, right? The animal become less metabolically active and that’s what happens if you restrict calories in humans, too, you know? Eventually we downregulate metabolism, not—not immediately.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But eventually and—and so caloric restriction is the only biohacking modality that’s been proven to actually affect aging, but in model organisms, it does do it at the cost of metabolic output and it probably–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Does the same thing in humans. So I’m excited about not only B vitamins, but things like alpha-ketoglutarate and this is the idea of going after the energy, you know, production machinery a little bit more directly. You know, lubricating ATP production. So B5, B12, and of course, we need versions that can cross-convert a methyl state, so ideally hydroxos and things. So yeah, I—I think a really good compliment B vitamin is kinda necessary. I think that you can also get really specific in a way that we don’t really understand yet, in terms of what you might need for B vitamins. I mean, there’s a lot of that genetic research done looking at methylation analyses–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And that’s essentially a study of how B vitamins are used in metabolism of energy and neurotransmitters. You know, that’s sort of how—how that—those analyses are used least. And–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when you’re talking about B vitamins and B12 though, you have like methyl B12–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you mentioned the hydroxyl and the adenosyl, when would you recommend one over the other?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I don’t know is the short answer.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And I—I don’t—I don’t think enough is known. I mean, the—the methylation stuff, you know, it’s not well-established. There’s—from my perspective and—and I come from sort of the optimism space being clinically many years ago, there’s a lot of focus on methylation in childhood diseases or development including these you know, things like autism and Fragile X and a lot—there was a lot of focus for many years on energy production and methylation. And some of it seems to do something in some of these people and some of it is just bad science, and we don’t know the line between it unfortunately because it’s grown out of a population of people who’ve been trying every—I mean, when you have an autistic kid, you try everything until you find something that works, and almost nothing works. This is how—this is why autistic spectrum population is a pretty good segment of the neurofeedback market because they discovered that it actually affect the brain, very little effects, you know, profoundly affects the brain people of autistic people. Neurofeedback can, doesn’t always, but it can. And that got a lot of attention in that community, so therefore, you know, word of mouth is very high, and—and that’s why there’s a big push there. And the same thing is true with methylation. Sometimes the right B vitamin cocktail, you know, dial it in in an authoritative manner.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Are you familiar with—with pyroluria condition where you need excessive B6 and zinc levels?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, I’ve heard of that. It seems to be related to phenylketonuria as well where there’s some aspartame sensitivities, right? It’s a similar genetic, but it’s more about elimination of—of some core vitamins.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so they—they need just accelerated levels of B6 and zinc and—and will see some of it–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  On the organic acids test, but we give them higher levels of B6 or zinc and helps their mood or helps their sleep or helps whatever else in their energy systems to function better.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Do you have any clinical experience with that?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I—I don’t, but really this is outside my area of expertise. I—I sort of do a little bit of personal biohacking in this space but my understanding of supplements is not as broad probably as my understanding of nootropics, so you know, B vitamins when I think about them are all about, “Mmm, how can I t weak the brain?” So I think, you know, B vitamins, I think like saw beauty in the, you know, which is a thiamine, a B1 dimer essentially gets into the brain and then cleaves. Then you have a massive hit of thiamine to the brain and if somebody came in as an alcoholic, I would—I would think, “Ooh, thiamine.” Because they have impaired B1 metabolism from drinking alcohol for many years and they probably have memory issues and—and failing the basal brain like mammal antibodies because of thiamine deficiencies. So I have a very specific you know brain focus on this stuff and not a good understanding of either the—you know, the phlebotomy driven if you will understanding of—of the biochemistry. It’s just not—I work at a very high-level of brain waves, so for me it’s all about tweaking that—that dance versus reading out the—the low-level output if that makes any sense.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so let’s shift gears with some of the smart drugs that you’ve–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You’ve done. I know we kinda have our pallet here, whether it’s modafinil or piracetam or aniracetam or oxiracetam. What’s—what are your favorites? I know in the past you’d mentioned you’re not–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A big fan of the modafinil, so I’ll let you have it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, you know, of course, I have designed TruBrain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And so I’m a big fan of mix of classic you know, a—a racetam plus a good choline, plus a few other things to support it and that’s sort of what went into the TruBrain formulations. Personally I—I’m still, you know, I still—piracetam and either CDP-choline or Alpha-GPC, still the best one to you know, combination I’ve ever found. And—and there hasn’t seem to be any downside or tolerance in these things when used for years and years and years, so that’s the, you know, the more serious biohacker’s you know, stack or the beginning biohacker stack potentially, but a little bit less racy, less risky, less you know, fully understood would be things like L-theanine. I—I mean I’m a big fan. I—I keep a couple things around my house, my office, and my campsite when I’m hanging out with my hippie buddies.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And those include L-theanine and ibuprofen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ahh.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Because L-theanine can pull back over caffeination pretty quicky.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And over arousal, anxiety, and a few other things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It’s doing that with GABA, right?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  For some people. Yeah, it’s very GABAergically–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It appears to be very GABAergic in alpha wave productions. If you really, you know, can break some—break some stage that aren’t comfortable, and then ibuprofen for—for those folks that have like, you know, smoked one too many joints or eaten one too many pot cookies and their, you know–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Freaking out because of that. Ibuprofen can knock back THC intoxication a little bit and—and help people who are in crisis. So from my perspective, there’s a 2-mile like emergency kit if you will, nootropics. Even though ibuprofen is not really nootropics. In fact, pain killers in general probably should not be considered nootropics because evidences is—is—and I’m sorry, analgesic pain killers, ibuprofen, acetaminophen, those are just things—the research is mounting that they actually turn off either learning or empathy a little bit in some cases. Now ibuprofen seems to be the better case these days because the cannabis research anyways, there’s evidence that it eliminates the memory formation problems that happen when you’re high as well as–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Reducing some of intoxic—the high level of intoxication that people gotten in trouble with it. So there’s a little bit of benefit there but a lot of things do actually tweak brain function fairly profoundly, and we don’t yet know, you know, what that necessarily is for many of these things. Even things like Tylenol and you know, ibuprofen, these—the brand names—I guess Advil is a brand name of that one, but whatever. Even those are not necessarily you know, that are without side effects and there are organ system issues with all those drugs as well–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I mean, kidney for ibuprofen–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Elevated liver enzymes. Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And liver for Tylenol.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And every year–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Gut lining. Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know, people make sui–yeah, gut lining for apirin—or ibuprofen. Every year people make—make suicide attempts with Tylenol and end up in liver transplant wards waiting for a liver because Tylenol’s so profoundly toxic to the liver. So yeah, not those but I—I also think, and get back to the ADHD question, there needs to be a big emphasis on not only systemic inflammation but supporting lipid metabolism through things like fatty supplementation, you know, Omega 3s, medium-chain triglyceride, even get good ketone production. For me, the—the focus on nutrition is shifting more towards getting crap out, you know, bad sugar, bad starch, actually all sugar bad starch and leaving in or enhancing the quality fats which include Omega 3s, Omega 9s–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Medium-chain triglyceride–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Usually food sources of those but I’ll toss them. I’m not a fan of refined oils. I—I don’t love them and most forms of refining I find either strip things out or leave things rancid, and so I try to get as much as possible from food, of course not always possible, and so I do supplement with DHA. That’s the only Omega that I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Supplement and I get it form of—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Algae or fish?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  In, yeah, exactly. Algae.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  TruBrain—the—the capsule form of TruBrain, still has a DHA capsule in the afternoon packet, and so we—that’s my sort of baseline—gotta get some Omega 3’s in because I know my body can cross convert as necessary. It’s not efficient but if necessary to make EPA from DHA and DHA seems to have more brain affinity so it’s a better, you know, Omega to go after if you’re gonna supplement and then I of course, keep my diet super low and grain-fed in anything including, you know, I don’t eat grains. I try not to eat anything that’s eaten grains.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And that keeps my Omega 6’s pretty low, too, which is, you know, something Westerners, specifically Americans are quite bad at.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and it sounds like you like really established to—to really have good fats, kind of a Paleo template-esque as well.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I did, I guess. I mean—I didn’t know it was called that, you know, I was—I was sort of looking at initially of course, I don’t know, 20-25 years ago I—I read this book, and it was all about cycling ultra-low and ultra-high carbs and you know, there’s some flaws in the theories in the book but it had really good explanation how insulin works and it really stuck with me and there’s all kinds of you know, before that I thought insulin was just the thing that your body secretes in response to blood sugar spikes so then your cell can suck the blood sugar up and store it, either as fuel or lipids, whatever. But you know, I sort of realize at that time that it actually is tied to all these other hormones and other regulatory, modulatory things that cause you know, catabolic or some anabolic changes and releases of growth hormone and—and cortisol and it started it started to get me thinking a lot about how probably somewhat a time bomb the—the typical way of eating, which was like repetitively spiking our blood sugar. I mean, let me—let me—the—the blood sugar question is fairly well understood but it’s also not, not magical. We dropped back to a sub—a less well understood but also very similar feature of regulatory systems in the body or brain which is cortisol in the brain, high levels of cortisol, a person responds to stress and it goes up so you can focus and be alert and a bunch of other things happen in the brain and the body, but in the brain, it watches the range of cortisol and as it goes up, it responds and when it goes down, it responds differently. If the cortisol level goes up and stays up, response fails. The brain stops responding and eventually those high levels of cortisol start killing brain tissue and you know what, that’s exactly what happened in things like diabetes. If insulin goes up and stays up with repetitively spiking your blood sugar until eventually your cells stop responding to the insulinogenic signal and that causes a cascade of failures at every level.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  In body metabolism and aging and repair and growth and learning and, I mean, the list goes on.  And so I figured that out about 20 years ago and, yes, I have a slight, you know, problem with ice cream occasionally I will admit it. But on the days that I’m being good, I’m perfect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And I’m good about 80% or 85% or 90% of the time, and on those days I’m absolutely damn ironclad on keeping my total carbohydrates below 65g.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup,

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Unless I worked out you know, hugely—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Like a 90-minute ______ class when I can barely let myself off the ground, then I might have you know, like an extra 20g of carbohydrates right after that and coconut water or something to replenish my glycogen from my you know, quivering muscles.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But that’s when I have profound physiologic signal of you know, glycogen depletion and good note for, you know, levels of carb intake, the human body is fully depleted can store about 50g of carbohydrates per hour.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Of glycogen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So you know, you—it would never make sense to—to take more than you can store and spiking for me anyways, I sort of figured it out it used to be around 20g of raw carbohydrate seems to spike my blood sugar and I—so, so my—my general rule is never more than 20g at anyone sitting, never drink my carbohydrate—it seems to spike things faster if it’s you know, sugar in a drink or you know, even milk or something versus—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about the Glycemic Index though?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Ah, Glycemic Index is a load of hooey. It’s—it’s about—it’s about as accurate as—as calories, you know? Which are also a load of hooey.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about—how about the—how about the glycemic load?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Ahh, see that’s—that’s a valid concept.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  We just don’t know necessarily how foods produce it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  The—the rating of food is, you know, arbitrary little bit but the—the effects of load on insulin and—and the carrying capacity if you will is occupying sensory—a sensing molecule is—is a real thing. I don’t know what that is but I do know if you keep your in—if you keep your signal of sugar low, very low in the body, the way regulatory systems work is s they listen harder. What that means for insulin is increased insulin sensitivity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So I don’t think it matters if you’re in ketogenesis or if you’re Paleo or Primal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I think if you—if you stop spiking your damn insulin, and you get a sense of what that feels like when you occasionally go over it, I mean, if you spike it every day you don’t notice it. But if you spike it once a week, you—you know exactly what it feels like to have your insulin go up a little—a little bit above, you know, where you need because you have this drunk feeling and you get a little bit sleepy afterwards, and—but you know, after you adapt to lowish carbs and high fat, energy is rock solid stable. So at some point I figured this out and about the same time we started figuring out as a you know, culture if you will—Westerners how problematic you know, many grains mass produced farm grains at least are—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  In—in their correct format, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And I started two’s together, I went, “Oh yeah, that’s what my gut feels like, you know, pun intended, feels like crap all the time is because of all this, you know,  inflammation and sludge moving through my system all the time from eating pizza and whatever else I was eating in the 80s and 90’s.” So you know, yeah, it ends up being Paleo or Primal-esque and I—and I would say, I would say that you know, more—more primal blueprint if we have to tie it to an existing pran—plan in Paleo because I do think there’s a place for dairy in humans, or can be at least, not—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Not every human can handle it and we have to make space for inter-individual variability but dairy in a cultured or fermented form, I’m just not willing to give it up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know? And there’s, you know, we can make a rationale but historically, ancestral health although I don’t generally make that connection because humans are ridiculously adaptable so we can point to any population in history and point out something that they’ve eaten that we couldn’t handle now. You know? People are variable. So whatever works for you is really what’s important. The insulin as a general rule, you know, carb loads are rules, the general—general guidelines are not you know, ironclad what’s gonna work for you, but—but I do think that you know, cheese and cultured butter and—and other fermented, you know, dairy can be fairly beneficial to the body I think it—it can develop in the gut biome can break it down to—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  To useful things. I think it can be a really great source of nutrition and I’m, you know, I’m also of Scotch-Irish ancestry. I’m gonna eat me some cheese.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know, some really sharp, crumbly you know, grab me by the tongue and squeeze kinda cheese.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely,

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I have to have that. It’s—it’s built into my—into my body.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And if you can do raw cheese—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You know, obviously if you get more of the enzymes intact so you can break down the casein and protein—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Which tends to be the more—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Problematic protein out of them all.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah and—more problematic and it’s also huge again, genetic variability in terms of—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Can you handle that or not? Right? And I am blessed to be able to handle dairy, no problem. I’m cursed so that at least current generation, you know, mass-produced chemical shit storm wheat—I can’t handle and I’m not like half the Americans who seem to have no problem with, you know, mass-produced wheat. I’m of the, you know, at least 40%, 50% that seem to have fairly significant issues with—with eating you know, bread so to speak from commercial grains. So, you know, I was a baker throughout high school and into college.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Huh.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And I’m a—I’m a nominal cook. I’m an amazing baker.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nice.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I can bake you anything you want, name it. I’ll walk into a kitchen. If there’s ingredients, you’ll—you’ll, you know, be happy but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Awesome.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I can’t—I can’t bake. You know, I can’t bake with wheat, with gluten as an adult essentially, as a—as a grown man because of the lack of, you know, ability to handle it and I—and I—this is—this not a new thing. I didn’t know why I had poor digestion as a teen and you know, early 20’s person but I did and it was eventually because of you know, of—of grains. I—I have a hard time wrapping my head around us as a society and human creature, culture, developing this big, fat, greedy, hungry brains that needed high starch to really be fueled with the fact that half the planet seems to be struggling to metabolize starches and grains. These two things are really incongruous to me and I don’t—I can’t quite wrap my head around it. I don’t quite believe the full you know, idea that we’ve distorted the plants you know, too profoundly because—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Humans are adaptable and—and they seem to be able to adjust long-term to re—and quickly to big changes in diet. I just don’t understand why we’re having such a hard time. I—this strikes me as a blind man and elephant situation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  What I discovered there’s some third factor that’s really you know, causative in destabilizing our ability to handle brains, and you know, 50 years ago that doctor was not present.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think it is—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Nowadays it is.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I know, if you’ve read Dr. Davis’ book, he talks about the—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-huh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Genetic modification of wheat, not like the genetic modification when we’re talking about with like Monsanto, but just we’ve started off—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  With breeding.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  With breeding.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Just kinda cross-breeding.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We have this einkorn wheat that was nine chromosomes and then we—we kinda cross, you know, cross-bred it so it can produce more gluten and you know, we’re res—basically be able to withstand various weathers and conditions. Now part of that from what I’ve seen with the genetic mod—genetic modificaion and the hybridization, the gluten content—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Has gone up significantly. I think 50%, 75%. So part of it could be just the extra gluten that is present that maybe wasn’t there years back.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Maybe. I think it’s really—it may be due to that or the gluten may have changed in some—in some form. And the reason I think of this is oats. You know, oats do not actually have true gluten. They have only gliadin, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You have other forms of—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Zeen—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Gluten, gluten-like proteins.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Or avenin, avenin.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, but—but exactly. It’s different.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And theoretically, if there’s no cross-contamination, you have gluten-free oats, theoretically people shouldn’t have an issue with them, and you know, I’m about as—as pale as they come as sickly, you know, 23andMe points me at Scotland and Ireland and is not unsure about it at all. You know, I’m like I’m one of people. I’m short. I’m wide. I can climb mountains. I hang out in cold climates and love it. You know, I’m—my people ate oats and I as an adult cannot handle gluten-free oats all that. You know, a little bit but not all that well and there’s not a lot of those proteins in something like oats compared to true wheat, so I’m not sure what it is. I think there’s something else. I think we’ll discover that there’s something unrelated to wheat completely, unrelated to food completely that has changed how we—how we do this and I don’t know if it’s—you know, something in a processing step or—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about Roundup? How much is the—the glyphosate contributing?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know, and maybe—and maybe 20 years of ex—of exposure to that you know, in my traditional western diet has sensitized me forever to you know, those type of proteins found in starchy you know, grains. I held feeds just fine but not—but not grains. So and again—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  This is an N of 1 and I’m, you know, just an informed consumer here, but I—I think that those—those glyphosphate and other you know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Chemically induced problems, we—we know those things cause problems. You know, when I was in grade school, you know, I wrote a paper on how DDT made you know, eggs fragile and it was—had to be removed for the environment in like 70s.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And this is not—this is you know, there’s always things like this. Every year, we go, “Oh, yeah, oh yeah, BPA. Ooh, oh yeah, that, hmm. Okay, let’s get that out of the environment, let’s get that—that out of our diet,” and one of those things is gonna be—is gonna interact the gut environment, the micro via the—the genetic expression of the microbiome, something will—is gonna be manning—there are many, many times the genetic, you know, material load of chromosomes in our gut that are not human DNA—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Than—than there are. You know, the microbiome is incredibly more complex than our own genome, profoundly more, you know, many, many, many, many, many, many times bigger in terms of number of actual genes, and you know, I have a hunch that we’re—we’re gonna find something in there is—is you know, thrown off by something we’re doing—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  As a modern people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I guess the next will be comes down to how long does it take for our DNA to adapt, because I know where human species have been around at some level at 1.8 million years, but perhaps and what grains have been here about 10,000. So I guess the question becomes are all of us adapting at that same rate to be able to handle grains?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, I mean, it’s a bit of—what you mean by adaptation?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Being able to digest. Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  We seem to very float—yeah, but that—that might happen quickly. It’s—I don’t think we fully understand what it—what is necessary in producing those, you know, old enzymes and ways to break down material. Like for instance, we can’t digest cellulose anymore, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  At one point in our development as—as creatures, we could eat wood pulp and survive off of it probably if we had to. That’s no longer the case. We no longer have those enzymes. You know, that swept through the population probably over many thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands of years, we weren’t quite yet human. But other things, you know, your—your grandparents had an experience that’s affecting your genes right now, Dr. Justin, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I mean, if your—if your grandparents were at World War II, I’m assuming you’re about my age—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And they experienced trauma or you know, stress—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Or anything else, the way your brain and body secrete and respond to cortisol is different than it would be—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Otherwise.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know, two generations of epigenetic, sort of cascade—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Have affected you. So the question about you know, how quickly does it take to adapt is unfortunately you know, becoming blurrier and blurrier the more we—we discover about the—the genetic expression or the organism learns and changes and patterns on the environment. You know, the—the gene for sort of modern big brain size that is in humans, I think it swept through the primate population at the time in something like 20,000 years which is absolutely fast. I mean, there’s no way that—that could—that could have happened by breeding pressure. You know, it happened through a combination of a bunch of factors probably including things like natural disasters and isolated certain population.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I mean, who knows what else, but you know, those are individual—actually two or three identified gene based on brain size, and those swept through the population in a—in a blink on an evolutionary timescale. But we talk about evolution as if it’s this massive glacier melting, no—no pun unintended.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Thing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And it can be, you know, this is why I’m—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  The fact that I’m bald is—is gla—is a function of glacial evolution. It—it took a long time for that to show up, but the fact that I was hyperactive as a kid, the fact that I’m sensitive to gluten and other forms you know, grains. That might simply be a function of my genome going “Dude, that hurt,” or “I gotta respond to that,” or “That’s dangerous,” and I ‘m not sure what it responded to but it’s unfortunately left me unable to you know, enjoy baking or—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Consuming, you know, really good pizza which is—which tragic.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And what’s the evolutionary role for baldness? I know you were kind of touching on that briefly there.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Ah, you know, I don’t know, I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A theory?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I see a few theories including things like it allows radiation of heat a lot better.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Because the brain is ridic—I mean, 90% of body heat is sort of escaping through the head. If you’re bald, you lose more heat through the top of your head. It allows your brain to cool itself more. There’s also some testosterone you know, relationships where it might not an adaptation so much as a you know, epiphenomenon of some other adaptation. Slightly higher testosterone expression or—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Or your levels in the—in the skin produce suppression of the follicle which is male pattern baldness, that set link characteristic of male pattern baldness, not all pair of patters in all baldness, but you know, the one that I have is—is probably a high level testosterone that reduced you know, the follicle. I’m not sure it—it produced, I mean who knows? The more I learn about the brain and the body, the more I’m surprised at how damn efficient every adaptation is. Nothing seems to happen by random and adapation is that you think serve one feature, serve multiple often. So I wouldn’t be surprised if at the same the organism was learning to become more efficient or a heat radiator. The same adaptation made it more you know, competitive sexually or something, and that meant the genes proliferating, you got both baldness and higher level of testosterone with some creatures, you know? But for me and I work in EEG which is a mysterious space. For me, understanding plausible is enough.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  If we can tweak a system and they can respond, then plausible is—is good enough as long as we are fighting is what is actual.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Interesting.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And we’re discovering what is actual in things like follicles. You know, there was a study out a few months ago that showed that—that they’ve figured out why hair goes gray and it looks like the same mechanism actually might be related to the—the key of the suppression of the follicle. There are some—some evidence that they tested but there’s some theory that was generated by this first finding. The first finding was, “Oh, look! Here’s what makes hair go gray.” And that actually explains why thigns like resveratrol may actually reverse—may actually plausibly reverse graying in some people who—who claim that it does, it’s not a wide—widespread phenomenon but it seems to happen. But the same mechanism seems to you know, suggest suppression of hair follicle and so we might be like right around the corner from you know, no more male pattern baldness through cosmetic you know, pharmacology if you will or genetic manipulation or who knows but it seems to be we’re right around the corner from—from solving that if you will. And then I’ll have a very firm opinion about how it works.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it. So you’re thinking—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But right now, you know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It doesn’t matter.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So you’re thinking the resveratrol could be helpful?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I think it probably can be. You know, I don’t—I don’t mind being bald, you know? I—Ia m—I guess I’m blessed in that I have a sort of Patrick Stewart shaped head.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And so I can cool it off—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  it’s fairly, it’s fairly round. There’s not a lot going on up there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Beyond curve.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I—I can pull that off and I, you know, I wear glasses so doesn’t mean to break in that expanse of flesh but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It doesn’t really bother me and I don’t really care too much about it. But yeah, resveratrol will probably or some related molecule probably, you know, unsupress the follicle, I mean, right now resveratrol has other uses, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mitochondria, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You’re taking resveratrol for mitochondrial support.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It seems to suppress estrogenation or other Romanization—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Of some hormones, so take it to protect the heart valve. If you’re taking other compounds can be useful. You know, there’s a few other like—like serotonergic but you don’t wanna take 5HTP and—and other serotonin converting things and get peripheral nervous system serotonin, that will do damage. You know, you’ll get peripheral neuropathy and damage your heart valve. If you wanna take you know, resveratrol and things like to suppress Romanization of hormones, but I—I bet we’re gonna discover something else like that, and suddenly sprout big, thick full heads of hair. And—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And will I try it? Sure. You know, because I actually have a gorgeous—you wouldn’t know this—but I have a gorgeous you know, reddish blonde Scottish mane.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nice.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And you know, it’s been 25 years since I’ve seen it, and you know, I can grow a ground _____ Willy style moustache right now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nice.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And I might, but it’d be kinda fun to go all full like you know, lion again, just playing in my age, so I say, yeah. I—as much as I am sort of laughing about who cares if we cure baldness, I would probably partake if there was a you know, natural-ish substance that I could tweak my—my follicles with.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely, I love that. Well, kinda finishing up here. I wanna just go through just a—a rapid question round for you. Just kinda hit these next couple things off.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Just really quick, sound good?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Alright. ADHD, what are the top 3 things you do for that?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Meditate, neurofeedback and drop sugar out of your diet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Addiction.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Understand why you’re using.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Is it impulsivity?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Is it boredom? Is it discomfort with your emotions? Is it brain injury that lead you to behave where you weren’t inspecting. Figure out which it is and solve it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it. You’re studying for an exam. What are the best things to get your brain revved up for that?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  The best thing is to space your practice versus mass your practice first of all.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Short breaks ideally with rest and sleep in between them over many days to ensure consolidation. The other thing is to put yourself in the perspective of get to versus have to.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So engaged with your—engage with your material because it’s fun and find a way to make it so. And the third thing is don’t binge on food when you’re studying. Snack very lightly make.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  To make sure you don’t end up in a—in a bonk, blood sugar-wise which will completely abolish the learning and studying interest you have for that session.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. Top three smart drugs.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Clearly, piracetam, cito— citrocholine and let’s say DHA.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  DHA.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  These are the kinds of drug. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. Basically the 22 carbon fat and the fish oil. Awesome.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, it seems to, you know, and maybe even Vitamin D might even fall in that category.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  These things are so profound in—in so many tissues and supporting so much metabolism. I think they upregulate stock even when it’s not noticeable.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. Recovering from brain trauma or a TBI.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  First thing, don’t do anything immediately.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Fast, right?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Don’t jostle your brain physically or mentally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  For a few weeks then drop inflammation, which means rest, low sugar, and then you can start doing things like neurofeedback and concentration-focused mindfulness to start waking up all that bruised and delta-rich cortex.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I’ve seen a low of stuff on low-calorie diets especially for a couple days after the injury.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, it’s just that fasting produces a drop in inflammation, so you know. Yeah, basically you gotta rest and you can’t even think hard ideally. You know, you definitely, you know, the—the damage comes in concussions from the second impact that you get in certainly within 3-5 days but maybe even 3-5 weeks after a first significant insult to the brain. There’s all these inflammatory cytokines that cause inflammation after the first insult that protect the brain in the—in the short term but make it fragile, make the tissue very shatterable for days and if you receive a second impact in that time, the damage—the damage is much more profound. You know, the damage carries through the brain , you know, through a solid almost, the way it would like a block of ice instead of just kinda pushing on a—on a corner like a piece of Jell-O or something, so—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You gotta let your brain rest for weeks, you know, 3 to 5 weeks if it’s a significant injury, and you can rebuild, you know, if you’re somebody who’s had a lot of wear and tear, brain fog, irritability, wearing out mid-day with cognitive fatigue, those are the—those are the 3 big signs. If you are somebody who’s post-concussive and you—you  realize that you still are, you know, months or years later, do something about it. Get some neurofeedback. You can completely—not completely maybe—but you can certainly affect it positively. And there are some long-term risk for many post-concussive. You know we know now that, you know, there’s a study out a few years ago, not even a few months ago I think or something last year, that showed that high school football players who never played a game but practiced with the team show early signs the chroma—of chronic, or sorry—CT, chronic, traumatic encephalopathy. From beginning brain scan, to the beginning to the end of the season, without ever playing a game—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Simply doing practice. So the amount of damage the brain can actually shrug off is negligible. It’s not really supposed to be bounced.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Or st—or change direction suddenly at 60 miles an hour. It’s not designed to go 90 miles an hour highway and suddenly stop, you know, or anything else where—where you’re launched through the world and then suddenly stopped. The brain’s great at you know, not that extreme impact, but it fails very quickly over a certain amount of impact. Let’s say it’s not force and we hit that force all the time. A single—there’s a study out 2 weeks ago maybe—a single stocker heading drill, and in heading the ball 20-30 times in a few minutes, memory test before and after showed a three quarters drop in performance, severe hermit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Right afterwards. Now, the study didn’t—didn’t look at long-term, it looked at immediate and it found a—and it found massive GABA-ergic, well, they were hypothesizing GABA as an inflammatory response but they found inflammatory markers and they found massive impairments in memory right after drill, and those things we know are things the brain learns from and—and responds to. So there is no safe level of head impact, you know? If I ever have a kid in high school, they are not going to play football or soccer. You know, I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That was my next question.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah. Never.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Would you like your kid to play football?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  No, I would not. No, I would not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And what do you think about what’s happening with the NFL? I mean, do you think this is just like smoking in the 1950s and it’s just, we’re just waiting for enough—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Research to come to a head?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yes, absolutely. Yup, absolutely. The—the NFL will become and also ran a small network of people who were the bad boys who still continue to do this thing that leaves people damaged. The NFL will be seen as an organization like Monsanto that has secretly known for decades that they’ve been injuring and killing people and had been doing lots with millions of legal dollars to keep that suppressed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And we will discover that if there—it just isn’t. It was never safe. That will be considered a barbaric time in—in 50 years.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think you’re right. Well, here, last question with you Dr. Hill before we find out more about where everyone can go see you. If you’re on a desert island, what’s the one supplement or nutrient you bring with you?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Alright, well, does this—does this desert island have coconut trees or not?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It does, so you’re gonna have the medium chain triglycerides there.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Nice. So if I have coconut meat and—and fat and everything else—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You could probably fish, too, so you’re Omega 3’s and DHA will be recovered.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I can fish, I got my DHA, you know, okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Sunlight, vitamin D, that’s covered.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I think that—I think that something, maybe beta-carotene.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, so vitamin A.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Or, no, I don’t know, I may go get astaxanthin from like—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Shellfish.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You probably would.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So, hmm, what—what can I—what couldn’t I get from a natural, from an island I really needed? Yeah, I would probably have to say something like piracetam.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know? but not, you know, let me—let me give you a non-standard answer. I—I wouldn’t bring any racetams with me. I’m on a desert island. I’m gonna relax.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I’m gonna fish. I’m gonna you know, I’m gonna get plenty of vitamin D and—and good food and you know, maybe—maybe grow some vegetables. Huh! But if I’m actually on a desert island, high-performance is not my survival. I’m gonna survive and once I’m surviving, I think—I think the environmental press of—of having to live and pry on a desert island would be sufficient nootropic to keep me functioning at my highest level.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. very cool, Dr. Hill. Now people who are listening, they wanna find out more about you and about TruBrain and about some of the services that—that you provide. Where is the best place to find more info on you?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, so fols can check me out at @AndrewHillPHD on Twitter. I think I’m also at Instagram, but that’s a pretty anemic page. Peak Brain LA, Peak Brain Institute has a Twitter, @peakbrainLA. We have a website, peakbraininstitute and of course, trubrain.com—T-R-U-Brain dot com is the supplement—it’s the supplement that the nootropic stack that you mentioned that I helped design a few years ago, and you know, I’d love if people reach out and ask me a specific brain questions. We have very unique brains. You put 10 people in a room, there’s at least 11 different brains in that room from my perspective. You really gotta share what’s special about you and celebrate it or take control of it and tweak it and address it. So I’d love if folks have, you know, quirky brains they wanna share to look me up and—and find out what we’re doing and you know, there’s lots of ways to—to take control and change your brain, so give me shoutout if you want one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Thanks a lot, Dr. Hill. It was a great talk and we look forward to chat with you again soon.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  My pleasure, Dr. Justin.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You take care. Have a good one.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You, too. See ya.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bye now.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Bye.

Natural solutions for high blood pressure – Podcast #117

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand dive into a discussion about high blood pressure, something everyone is all too familiar with, and they explain what the root causes are and how you can manage it conventionally and with functional medicine.

Find out what nutrient deficiencies can be caused by blood pressure medications and what you can do about it. Discover how you can manage your blood pressure in the long-term with functional medicine. Also learn some tips on what to eat during the holidays and how to get that mouth feel while eating good food when you listen to this podcast.

In this episode, topics include:

01:45   High Blood Pressure Overview

05:39   Blood pressure myths

10:46   Mechanisms

12:04   Nutrition and stress

20:10   Lifestyle

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, there! It’s Dr. Justin. Evan, how are you doing today, man? It’s almost Christmas.  December 23rd here, really excited for the holidays. How you doin’?

Evan Brand:  I’m as excited as you are.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Great! So the question is have you been a good boy this year?

Evan Brand:  I’m on—I’m on the good list.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Good, awesome!

Evan Brand:  What about you? Are you on—are you on the nice or the naughty list?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Of course, I’m on the nice list. Now the question is, are you gonna leave some Paleo cookies out for—for Santa, or are you gonna leave some—some glutinous cookies out for him?

Evan Brand:  We actually did buy some organic Annie’s cookie for a Christmas party. I will probably not be partaking in them even though it’s organic which is great there’s the wheat, so I will be avoiding the wheat. I’ll probably buy Miracle Tart for myself for Christmas since I’m part Santa.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes, exactly. That’s the—the Hail Mary tarts, right?

Evan Brand:  Yes, those are so good. There’s only one place in the whole city you can get them here and so that’s where I go to—to get them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Do you guys have a Whole Foods down there in Louisville?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, we got Whole Foods. They don’t stock them there though. They stock them at this little local place called Rainbow Blossom. They have random things like Epic. They have Epic products. They have their pork rinds and that’s the only place you can get him.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Evan Brand:  And they’re really darn good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow. Very cool.

Evan Brand:  You know what I’m talking about? Epic?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, the Epic bars you mean?

Evan Brand:  Have you seen them?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The Epic bars?

Evan Brand:  No. Yeah, but they have pork rinds now. Have you seen them?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, I have seen them. I have patients that just got some recently/.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, the pastured pork rinds. They’re really good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Gonna have to get them for sure. I love pork rinds.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. Well, we talked pre-show that we were gonna chat a little bit about blood pressure. We really haven’t gone into that so much.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I mean this is common. Just some statistics at a glance, you got 70 million Americans and 1 billion people worldwide with high blood pressure, and if it’s left untreated you run into many, many, many issues. The biggest one that people probably know of is a stroke, and one time probably 25-30 years ago my grandmother had high blood pressure so high that she felt a shooting pain in her brain. So she went to the emergency room. She had my grandfather take her in and her blood pressure was over 220 by maybe 150, 220/150 something like that, just insanely high that so high that the nurse freaked out and immediately, immediately took action to get the blood pressure down. So this is not always the way that people find out they have high blood pressure issues. This could be going on behind the scenes for decades, but there are some simple strategies that we can talk about that can help to reduce the risk of high blood pressure. It goes up naturally with age, right? But that still should not be over 200. That’s just mind blowing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, absolutely. So when you look at blood pressure medications, you know, for the most part, that’s a chronic type of ailment. It tends to happen over a long time and it’s—for the most part, it’s something that’s chronic and that the blood pressure medications aren’t gonna get to the root underlying cause.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Now if your blood pressure, you know, you’re upwards of 160—that’s the systolic number. That’s the—the pressure that your heart creates in the blood vessels when the contracts and the bottom number, that’s called the diastolic number, like D for down, it’s the bottom number and that’s kind of where the pressure is in your arteries/heart when your heart’s kind of relaxing. So you pump—the lub dub—that’s the heart contracting and where it’s pressing down, that’s the top number, systolic, and then where it’s relaxing, that’s the bottom number, the diastolic. So when you get about 160 with the systolic, that can kind of be what I call the danger zone. So if you are at that level and let’s say, you haven’t quite made the diet and lifestyle changes, I do think being on a medication at higher levels until you get to the root cause is better because you wanna avoid a stroke or some type of a heart attack, right? So we want to make sure that if it’s high and you’re not doing anything about it, getting that blood pressure down is better, but in the long run we don’t want that to be the only answer.  We wanna look at getting to the root cause and we’ll kinda go over some of the root causes here in just a bit.

Evan Brand:  Great point. So just to be clear if someone’s listening and they have high blood pressure but they’re scared or they do not like conventional medicine you would still advise that person to go get on the drug even if it is short-term because you’re safer on a drug with side effects that lowers blood pressure than having high blood pressure and doing nothing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, and you were talking–

Evan Brand:  Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Upwards of above 160 and let’s say you already have a lot of a healthy—or sorry, unhealthy habits going on, poor exercise, sugar, inflammation, all that and you don’t quite know where to go yet, again I just would hate to see someone, I’m—I’m a little more concerned and I hate to see someone go and have a cardiovascular incident that could’ve been prevented with some blood pressure medication in the short-term but in the end, right?

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We wanna get on board with the functional medicine coach/doctor that can get to the root issues because the nice thing about blood pressure, it’s easy to monitor. You get one of these $30 Omron blood pressure cuffs, the self ones on Amazon you can monitor it multiple times a day, and then you can see the number go down and guess what? You just call up your doctor. “Hey, Doc, I’m doing some natural things to help lower blood pressure. My blood pressure’s dropping naturally. I like to taper off the medication.” And most medical doctors, if you’re being responsible and monitoring it and you’re telling them you’re doing things they typically have no problem with that if you show them that you’re responsible by keeping track of it.

Evan Brand:  Yup, well said.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so off the bat, anything you want to comment on that?

Evan Brand:  Well, so with blood pressure, you know, there’s tons of things that can cause it. I would say we should probably dispel the myth of the salt high blood pressure, I mean, kind of—part of it’s true if we’re talking about the garbage salt, right? The iodized salt, the sodium chloride plus iodide, but with like a good pink salt or a good Himalayan sea salt, there’s so many different options with black salts, there’s volcanic salts, the sodium is not gonna be the problem there, it’s the inflammation combined with a low-quality salt that could be the problem, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, they’ve done studies I think it’s in the Journal of the American Medical Association where like salt even, they—I don’t think differentiated the quality of salt, probably your regular table salt that’s not so nice. I think it increased like maybe 2 mmHg, right? Two or three, that’s like the top number. That’s like going from 120 to 122, 123.

Evan Brand:  Why did that—why did that become such a popular widespread myth do you think?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s a great questions. There’s a lot of things in conventional medicine that are that way. I mean, you can look at grains, you can look at sugar, you can look at trans fat. I mean, you can look at cigarette smoking. You can look at so many different things–

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Of how they kinda got that way but for the most part the only reason, the only, you know, motivation to avoid salt is if you already have severe kidney damage, maybe the only reason why you’d want to decrease salt consumption is because you have active kidney issues right now. But if you didn’t have that, getting high quality minerals on board will be helpful and again, if your blood pressure is excessively low, salt will help bring your blood pressure up kind of in a modulatory way, but it won’t make it go excessively high. You won’t have high blood pressure because you have more sea salt intake. You will have higher blood pressure but higher and high are two different things. Higher meaning a couple millimeters of mercury bump, that’s where we’re looking at.

Evan Brand:  Makes sense.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Except if it’s low—if it’s low, it’ll bring it up much higher because you know, let’s say your adrenals are really key at holding on to minerals and if you’re decreasing your mineral retention because the aldosterone that your adrenals make is low because of the adrenal dysfunction that’s happening, you will pee out more minerals and that—that’s important for regulating blood pressure and that’s also important for their sodium potassium pumps, so if we don’t have enough high quality sodium, those sodium potassium pumps kinda that creates the gradient and how things go in and out of the cell, now if don’t have adequate sodium on board, that can definitely be a stressor for the body.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, makes sense and you and I hear this all the time with people with adrenal problems, if you stand up quickly you may get lightheaded or woozy, you’re not regulating your blood pressure. You may not have high blood pressure, you could actually have low blood pressure in some of those cases, but either way your body’s ability to regulate blood pressure does decrease if there is adrenal stress which definitely there’s gonna be adrenal stress of there’s infections and inflammation, and all the things that you’ve already mentioned, maybe other things like insulin resistance. How do you know if you’re insulin resistant? Well, if you look into—well, there’s—there’s calculators and all of that to look at, what is it? Waist to hip ratio and all of that. But if you look into the mirror and you see that you’re overweight, it’s likely that you have some level of insulin or possibly leptin resistance problems which can then cause blood pressure to go high.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely so when we look at blood pressure, one of the biggest things that will throw your minerals off and cause a higher than normal blood pressure is increased fructose consumption, i.e. sugar and just increased elevations of insulin. Insulin will cause a retention of sodium. That’s why one of the first things you notice, you cut out sugar for 2 or 3 days, you lose like 3 or 4 pounds weight, maybe even more. Now you’re not losing 3 or 4 pounds of fat. You’re losing 3 or 4 pounds of fluid because as the sugar goes down, right? One molecule of sugar holds on to—to I think 3 or 4 molecules of water, something like that. So as the sugar goes down, so does the sodium and so does the water. So what happens is you flush out a lot of fluid when you cut down the carbohydrates and cut down the sugar, and with fructose—fructose, high amounts of fructose inhibits this enzyme called en—endothelial synthase. Endothelial synthase is a nitric oxide-based enzyme that’s really important for vasodilating, and dilation means opening up those blood vessels. So if we decrease the enzyme that opens up those blood vessels, it’s like clamping down on that hole. It’s like going out in your garden taking the hose that’s putting out water and putting your thumb over the edge of it to make that stream go stronger and stronger.

Evan Brand:  That’s a trip. Now let me stack on another idea here. If there is adrenal stress, someone’s also gonna be dumping a lot of magnesium which you need that to help relax the blood vessels so you’re compounding the issue and if you are adding the fructose or the high fructose corn syrup or sodas in there, that’s gonna cause blood sugar issues which is gonna create a bigger crisis and the adrenals are gonna have to be more stressed if they’re not already. They’ll be more stressed because they’re having to kick in as the backup generators because then the pancreas and the liver not being able to keep up, so the whole cascade really kinda falls apart at sugar it sounds like.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. So we have a couple of different mechanisms. Let’s break them down. So we have just the—the general sugar kind of mechanism with it’s table, you know, your sucrose, fructose, kinda glucose thing that’s increasing insulin and that’s gonna hold on to more fluid and more sodium, and that will increase blood pressure via that way. We have the fructose mechanism that will increase or decrease the endothelial synthase enzyme which will decrease the vasodilation, i.e. cause constriction of the blood vessels, and we also have plasminogen activator inhibitor mechanism. So the higher amounts of insulin we have, our plasminogen activator what that does is it—it decreases or I should say, it decreases clots, i.e. it increases fibrinolysis. So -lysis means to cut. Fiber means like a clot. So it’s breaking down blood clots. So imagine little occlusions from cells sticking together, fibron, it’s gonna decrease those clots and allow smoother flow in the plumbing in the cardiovascular system. So if we decrease the clots, that means the plumbing flows smoother and that means we’re gonna have less pressure to have to push through those clots. So we have the plasminogen activator inhibitor-2 mechanism that also gets drained with higher levels of insulin.

Evan Brand:  Make sense. Should we talk about nutrition now?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Evan Brand:  So Omega 3 deficiency is huge, I mean, if you look at hunter-gatherers or if you even just look Ennuit studies, you’ll see that the average Ennuit was consuming anywhere depending on what you look at, but on the low end 10 or 15g, sometimes 20g of Omega 3’s per day and we’re lucky if we get someone to take a 1g or maybe 2g supplement of Omega 3’s. So there’s a huge, huge deficiency and when you look at research linking Omega 3’s to blood pressure problems, what you’ll find is the people who have the lowest blood pressure readings have the highest blood levels or serum levels of Omega 3’s. This is a huge find and this is why I’m very, very passionate about getting people to supplement with some type of Omega 3. We’re gonna assume that most people are not eating enough wild caught fish and also then you run into the issue of the methylmercury in certain bigger fish like tuna. So for me I’m more pushing people towards a supplement because I know a lot of people don’t want to cook fish multiple times a week anyway, so you can look at like a fish oil or a krill oil, but at the end of the day, could you still get some fish into your diet? For sure, a cod or a wild caught salmon would be good, but your—what is it called? StarKist tuna that’s probably sitting in genetically modified soybean oil. You want to stay away from that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely, and fish oil also is a natural blood thinner. It keeps the cells of from sticking together. So it’s kind of a natural thinner, kinda like a Coumadin or a warfarin, but without the side effects. So it does thin out the blood a bit for sure.

Evan Brand:  Great point. Yeah, that’s why we gotta tell people if they’re going to get surgery you would think, “Oh, man, supplements are fine.” That is one case where we would say, “Hey, look, why don’t you stop taking your fish oil for now if you’re going to get surgery, because we don’t want your blood too thin.” So it is very, very effective for that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. So we talked about vitamin D. There’s also other natural blood thinners like ginkgo which help increase oxygenation by increasing blood flow. Even things like systemic-based enzymes taken on an empty—empty stomach especially serratiopeptidase. So if you have various clotting or you have occlusions in the coronary arteries, taking some of these enzymes on an empty stomach they’re gonna be enterically coated so they’re not gonna be used for digestion. They won’t get exposed and degraded by stomach acid. Ideally they’ll make its way into the bloodstream where these guys can hit areas of plaque or occlusion and break up any fibrin or scar tissues that may be hanging out in there.

Evan Brand:  Here’s another—you—you brought up vitamin D. Here’s a good—a good hack and obviously it may take money if you’re somewhere closer to the polls and it’s wintertime, you’re not gonna have as much sunlight but there’s definitely some research that shows that if you exposed your skin to sunlight, that it’s gonna increase the level of nitric oxide which is isn’t gonna naturally help you to dilate your blood vessels and then, therefore, reduce your blood pressure. So you could be taking a fish oil supplement, you could be going to the beach and getting some sunshine, and then what about stress? We should probably mention stress, too, because a lot of this is we’ve already talked about stress, right? Nutritional stress, mineral stress, but emotional stress, too, if that goes unaddressed and people are harboring anger and negative emotions, that’s not good. That cannot—it’s definitely not helping your blood pressure. Put it that way.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, all of that will basically increase cortisol and adrenaline which does have a vasoconstricting. It’ll—it’ll put that thumb over the water hose a little bit tighter, incre—increase that flow because of the stress hormone. So stress emotionally knocks over a domino cascade of adrenaline and cortisol, which does have a big impact on the vascular system.

Evan Brand:  Which would be good if you and I were running from a bear, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, totally make sense, right? Because we gotta get blood flow to those extremities, the toes, the fingers, the arms, the legs, so we can run and fight and flee. But if we’re just sitting on their desk or like, you know, driving to work and we’re just boiling and we don’t—necessarily don’t need that type of blood flow. You can see the stress on the vascular system that is caused by that type of hormonal cascade.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so I mean this is another example where the ancient wiring system really does try to benefit us but when it’s chronic acute stress which sounds like an oxymoron but you’re dealing with acute stressors like a cell phone notification—ding! And that goes off all day, that’s a chronic acute stressor. Your body doesn’t know the difference, so I encourage people if you have it, get rid of your notifications. I promise the world will not fall apart if you have your phone on silent or even airplane mode most of the time, and then you can get back to life on your terms. Because what I find with people dealing with emotional stress, and—and hypertension is that many people feel like there’s never enough time in the day. They’re always playing catch up and I found personally, if I get up a bit earlier I feel more in control of my schedule. You and I are very, very, very passionate about calendar software, so we love our calendars and couldn’t live without them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  So that—so that’s another helpful thing. But for me, it’s also focusing on the most important things in the morning. You gave me some really good advice when you talked about kind of the morning visualization and all of that. I’ve— I try to do some type of morning meditation, visualization exercise, that helps to increase the amount of control and at the end of the day, the goal is just to reduce your perceived stress. Justin and I can’t wave a wand and say, “Okay, look your stress is gone.” But if we can fix or improve the way that you respond to what you have on your plate, at the end of the day, you’re gonna be much healthier. You’re not gonna releasing cortisol all day. Hopefully, you’re gonna have less food cravings. You’re gonna be less dependent on glucose because you’re gonna be burning ketones and fat, and you’re gonna be in a much better place, mentally, physically, cognitively, blood sugar-wise, everything.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A hundred percent and just piggybacking on what you said, just a little bit of sunlight makes a big difference. They’ve done some studies and again a lot of this is correlation not causation, but you know there are some potential mechanisms there, like with the nitric oxide and potentially with the kidney and how vitamin D can really help blood pressure, one study talked about a 10 ng/mL increase, so you know, if your vitamin D’s 30, that’s like taking it from 30 to 40, and someone who’s vitamin D levels are lower can have a 12% lowering of their blood pressure and also people who had the highest vitamin D levels had a 30% lower risk of developing hypertension. Again not causation but correlation but there are some hypothetical mechanisms that we just mentioned that could be at play so a good rule of thumb here especially in the winter months, get your 25-hydroxy vitamin D looked at and if you haven’t gotten it tested yet or you don’t have the ability to test it right now, a good rule of thumb is 25 for every 25 pounds of body weight, you have 1000 IUs of vitamin D is fine. So I’m a little over 200 pounds so I would do about 8000 IUs of vitamin D, maybe round up to 10. Someone who’s half that, obviously 4000 is a pretty good starting point if you’re just trying to figure out, hey, how can I take this vitamin D to lower my blood pressure?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, some people worry a lot about the vitamin K because we’ve talked before about the whole traffic cop analogy of vitamin K helping to direct and keep calcium where it belongs and not into your arteries and things like that. Do you worry much about vitamin K1, K2 supplementation or you just focus on getting plenty of good butter?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  If we’re going vitamin D on a high, if we’re using vitamin D and we’re going with it for a long period of time, we’ll make sure there’s a couple hundred micrograms of the MK2 in there.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, MK—I think it’s MK4 and MK7.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Let’s see, I’ll have to look at my bottle over here, but the vitamin K 2, the X factor, the activator, that’s what we’ll use and that will significantly help keep the calcium where it needs to be in the bones, and also just getting high quality grass-fed and essential fatty acids, a little bit of liver, all that stuff’s gonna be phenomenal for vitamin K.

Evan Brand:  Excellent. Now I wanted to get back to more lifestyle things. We talked about vitamin D. We talked about Omega 3’s. Exercise is a good one for sure, I mean, the—the basic part of it is just that you’re becoming more insulin sensitive. I mean if you think about how hungry your appetite is when you get done with a good high intensity workout. Oh, my gosh, you can just feel amazing, and if I do a protein shake after an intense workout, I feel like it’s going straight my bicep. I love the feeling but now—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Evan Brand:  After super high blood pressure, would we want to tell people, “Look, start with just walking.” You probably don’t want to put somebody on a high intensity interval training if your blood pressure is already 150-160. You might not be able to handle it. You might get dizzy and—and more stressed out than—than we want you to be.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly so you have, you know, the mechanism you just mentioned by having the insulin receptors be more sensitive. That means your pancreas has to produce less insulin to get the sugar into your cell, so it can be burned up. Number one. You’re obviously you’re burning—you’re putting less sugar into your body so you’re using more ketones for fuel. So we’re being more fat or keto adapted at that time, and then also the heart just gets stronger. As the heart get stronger, it needs less force to pump. It has a higher stroke volume so it can push out more blood per pump and that obviously will have a—an effect of decreasing the blood pressure and then also growth hormone and/or just exercise will increase nitric oxide. And that will have an effect of—

Evan Brand:  That’s—that’s so cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Vasodilating and opening things up, too.

Evan Brand:  Yup. That is so cool. How about—what about indoor—indoor air pollution. You know, the EPA talks about 10 or 100 times more toxic exposures inside your home than outside. So air purification could be a good idea because if you’re breathing in these different toxins, that’s also an invisible stressor that’s gonna be elevating that whole nervous system sympathetic, fight or flight response, which we really don’t need to press that button anymore.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, so anytime you put a stressor on your body, whether it’s physical, chemical or emotional, and this kinda fits into the chemical realm, i.e. toxin realm, that can be a stressor on the body and your adrenals and your fight or flight system may respond. It may put you into a sympathetic type of stress response and again we already know what happens with that cortisol increase that’s gonna create constriction. Why? Because the stress response pushes blood flow to the extremities, right?

Evan Brand:  For survival—survival over I don’t know what the—the other side of the coin would be. But your body goes for survival any day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup, exactly. Surviving over thriving. The problem is thriving only happens after the survival mechanism is turned off, but most people are constantly living with that survival mechanism turned on and activated.

Evan Brand:  So now this can get a little bit complicated.  So I know this may be tough for us to cover this, but let’s say we have someone that is already on a blood pressure medication like a lisinopril and we’re wanting them to go the natural route or they have intentions to go the natural route. How does that work? Do we bring the doctor on board and we have to say, “Look, you know, I’m working with a functional medicine practitioner. We wanna start using some natural things like Hawthorne or other blood pressure modulating herbs. Can you help me to lower my medication?” You know, how—how should that relationship happen between the prescribing doc and then someone like us trying to help to switch them to something natural or just get them off any type of meds completely?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So what I typically tell patients, I say, “Are you interested in getting off your blood pressure medication? Do you wanna get off them?” And almost anyone that’s seeing someone like us, they definitely wanna get off them.

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Again, the biggest problem with a lot of the blood pressure medications is they actually perpetuate the need for more blood pressure medications. So what I mean is they actually create nutrient deficiencies. Things like potassium which are really important for blood pressure, magnesium which is a natural beta blocker—these little receptor sites in the heart that the nervous system activates and it creates, you know, more excitability in the heart and that can cause the—the heart to have to pump harder and that can increase the blood pressure in the arteries. So magnesium’s a natural beta blocker, really important for relaxation. People that take it, one of the first thing they notice is they start to relax and wind down. That’s why Epsom salt baths are so popular with people that are stressed. So magnesium, potassium, calcium, various B vitamins, so all these nutrients become more deficient in these types of medications. These medications are known to create these nutrient deficiencies. So like I mentioned before acutely if you’re not in good place, you wanna be on one of these medications until you can get your—your lifestyle and everything in order, and you find a good nutritionist and/or functional medicine doctor to work with, that’s when you can start to move forward and the nice thing is it you just monitor it. You can tell your doctor, “Hey, we’re gonna be doing some things to help lower it naturally. A lot of times they think there’s nothing you can do. I mean, they may be keen on the whole diet and lifestyle thing. They may think that you can’t get down to the point where you are off the medications, but a lot of times they’ll entertain the idea. “Hey, let’s monitor it. Let’s see where you’re at out and you can go from there.” The biggest though misconception you gotta be careful of if you’re only testing your blood pressure during the day when you’re at the doctor’s office, we called The White Coat Syndrome. Just being around the doctor in the office and all the, you know, “Hey, am I gonna get a shot today or a needle or give blood, whatever,” so it’s a lot of stress about getting poked and prodded when you go to the doctor’s office. That can increase your blood pressure as well. So I tell my patients, first thing you get up in the morning. You’re still horizontal. You’re lying down. Take your blood pressure there. Take it at random intervals throughout the day and just kinda make some notations of how your blood pressure ranges. It may be 20 or 30 mmHg higher when you’re more active, but when you’re more relaxed, it maybe 20 or 30 lower, and if you’re sleeping—

Evan Brand:  I had my grandfather—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, go ahead.

Evan Brand:  Sorry, I didn’t—I didn’t mean to interrupt. I had my grandfather do that because he went to his doctor, which he doesn’t like his doctor anyway, and I tell him, “Look, you can—you can get a new doctor.” I don’t—he feels so tuck. I don’t know. It’s just that mindset. Anyhow, 40 difficulty—40-point difference from morning when he first got up, took his blood pressure—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Compared to at the doctor’s office. I mean, we’re talking a difference of 120 to 160. I mean, that’s insane, 40 points. So here you go and it’s not like the doctor is going to monitor you and say, “Hey, let me check your blood pressure again next week.” If they see that high once, they’re gonna put you on the drug.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s it.

Evan Brand:  And write that prescription that quick.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly and the insurance base model for visits with your conventional MD, there’s just not time to talk about diet nor do they even—are they even educated about it? There’s virtually zero nutritional education and if there is any, it’s based on a pathological level, right? Vitamin C causes scurvy, B1 deficiency causes beriberi, or it’s the food pyramid—eat your 10 to 11 servings of grains a day.

Evan Brand:  Ugh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Let’s not talk about the GMOs or the carcinogenic pesticides sprayed on the food daily.

Evan Brand:  Oh, my gosh. I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So you don’t like get the best perspective.

Evan Brand:  I was watching a video by Eric Berg, you know, Dr. Berg?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Watching a video of him talking about glyphosate which I already knew most of it, but it’s just mind blowing that now research is starting to look at how small of glyphosate exposure it really takes to disrupt this whole hormonal health cascade. I mean we’re talking points, parts per billion or are parts per trillion in some cases, I mean, here you are thinking, “Oh, the 80-20 rule, 80 organic, 20 not.” I wanna be as close to a hundred as I possibly can.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, a hundred percent, and again glyphosate a.k.a. Roundup, right? That’s the major pesticide sprayed on a lot of these Roundup resistant crops, basically allows them to not have to do any weeding at all, because it kills everything except the plant, i.e. kills the weed and it’s the chelator. So it pulls away minerals, so guess what? It’s pulling away a lot of good minerals, some of the ones I mentioned that are really important for healthy vascular health and controlling blood pressure.

Evan Brand:  Yup. Wow. That’s a trip and you combine that with 24/7 technology, that Fight or Flight mode is going.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. So obviously getting the adrenals under control, getting the diet under control, getting the—your glycemic load under control, meaning keeping the carbohydrates within range for you. If you’re overweight, getting them close to 50 and getting more to a ketogenic approach starting out is gonna be a great starting point and then getting some of the extra nutrients back in like magnesium, zinc, potassium, folate, B6. These are common nutrients that are deficient in people taking blood pressure medications, right? We’ve talked about the nutrient deficiencies caused by these medications and then also adding things like Hawthorne or a.k.a. foxglove. I think there’s a medication made after these herbs, too.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I think—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That are—that’s conventionally used.

Evan Brand:  I think they’re—they’re rooted from that. I think they come from the plant.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  And of course, they patented and changed it to where it doesn’t resemble the plant anymore but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s it. So some medications are actually made from those types of extracts. So we kinda reviewed the diet and lifestyle things, and that these drugs work a couple different ways. You mentioned the lisinopril or the hydrochlorothiazide. These are like water pills. They just cause you to pee more and lose more of the fluid then you have ones that affect the angiotensin-converting enzyme that affects—it’s in the lung

area menu of ones that affect the receptor sites in around the heart whether it’s the beta blockers or the—these adrenergic receptor blockers that affect heart contractility, so there’s a couple different ones there and again in the end, we want to get to the root cause of why you have these blood pressure issues to begin with.

Evan Brand:  Yup, absolutely! I’m sure we can make this an hour—an hour-long show but it always is going to end. You got—you gotta dig deeper and figure out. We could talk all day about the lifestyle and all that, but in some cases, people are doing everything right or what they think is everything right and they still have high blood pressure so there could be some other type of infection or something deeper that is causing the sympathetic stress and we just have to uncover it and I don’t know if I mentioned it to you. I ran a 401H and a GI MAP side-by-side on a female, let’s see about two weeks ago, and the GI MAP showed up with seven infections including two parasites and the 401H showed up with nothing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Evan Brand:  Is that not crazy?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That is pretty crazy. The other one was–

Evan Brand:  So I sent over—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Was the other one the GI Map?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay. So we got DNA technology on one versus the antigen-based under the microscope technology on the other.

Evan Brand:  Yeah and I have to go on symptoms because I mean those a lot of symptoms, so get tested but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, you know my—yeah.

Evan Brand:  What were you gonna say?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You know my method on that. If anyone has got symptoms we always wanna cast a bigger net because we have the possibility for holes in one, so 2 tests as a minimum when we’re looking at gut infections for sure.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And again the nutrients that are so important for heart contractility where we’re always trying to—if we go off on a tangent everyone, we’ll pull it back in and try to relate it, but the nutrient deficiencies caused by some of these infections, these nutrients like the magnesium and the B6 and the folate and all of the other minerals, potassium, magnesium, etc., zinc are really important for heart contractility and blood pressure, so if we have holes in our intestinal tract metaphorically, where we have a decrease in the absorption of these nutrients, that can affect our vasculature and our blood pressure for sure.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so we’re talking SIBO, other you know, any type of bacterial overgrowth problems, yeast problems, parasites, things that are stealing your nutrients basically you’re referring to where you’re not getting fed yourself because you’re starving from the inside out because you’re feeding something else and not feeding yourself or hydrochloric acid levels are low. I mean, could we go as far as to say—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A hundred percent.

Evan Brand:  This cascade could start by having heartburn and then getting put on PPIs which then reduces hydrochloric acid, which then reduces absorption, so then the nutrient deficiencies cause the hypertension.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A hundred percent and I’ve seen so many patients that are adrenally fatigued or have adrenal dysfunction per se, and they can’t really regulate their blood sugar. They have to eat every two hours and their blood pressure gets super wonky, right? It goes down below 90 sometimes and we have to flood their body with extra minerals, enzymes, and hydrochloric acid and eat every two hours just to be able to maintain everything because the glandular system is so out of whack, which again correlates back to blood pressure. Now in this side of the fence, we’re dealing with the lower side which can still create just as many issues, not as quite dramatic as the high blood pressure ones with stroke and heart attack, right? Heart attack is occlusions and blockages in the heart. Strokes obviously conclusions and blockages in the brain. So we wanna do our best to avoid the high stuff and make sure we adhere to as many of these natural strategies as possible.

Evan Brand:  Yup, absolutely. Well said. So if it’s high, implement the stuff that you can, take the free information, and then if you need to work further, work further. Reach out to Justin. Reach out to myself. Get help. Get this taken care of. This is something that is so common, but that doesn’t make it normal. So many people can relate to high blood pressure, maybe you’ve dealt with it or you have a family member that’s dealt with it. I could think of a dozen people off the top of my head and they just get put on the drugs, nothing ever changes with diet and lifestyle, they continue to suffer and will get more symptomatic as time goes on. So don’t be in that statistic. You can—you can get healed and you can reverse this without too much hassle and a relative amount of time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, so if someone’s tuning in now, maybe they fell asleep the last half hour, well, shame on you. No. But here’s the general gist, okay, here’s the gist. If you fell asleep and you’re waking up now, diet—get it in order, just what Evan said, get the carbohydrates dialed in. If you’re overweight, start with just vegetables and maybe add in a small amount of low fructose types of fruit. From there, optimize fat, become a fat burner, and then on top of that, look at the adrenals, look at your stress, make sure that’s dialed in because of the cortisol response. And then off top of that, look at the nutrients—magnesium, zinc, hydrochloric acid. Look at blood pressure medications, potential being—

Evan Brand:  Omega 3’s.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Omega 3’s. You can look at herbs that can help, the foxglove/Hawthorne types of medications or herbs I should say, which are based off of medications as well.  Omega 3’s, blood thinning, gingko, systemic-based enzymes, Hawthorne. These are all really good things to help kind of support and address blood pressure and then get to the root cause, work with a functional medicine doctor that can help you put—put it all together because it could be a little overwhelming if you’re walking into this and you’re like, “Shoot! Where do I start?” And then also a little bit of exercise and then really look at the fructose, because how that has an effect on the endothelial synthase and the blood pressure via the contractility in the arteries.

Evan Brand:  Yup, well said. And I have heard people say that they like listening to us because it’s relaxing. So you did a great job! In case I did fall sleep for the last 35 minutes, you summed it up. So good job!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Perfect! Excellent and again most people that come and see me at least and I think it may be for you, most people are coming because of a whole bunch of other symptoms, and then blood pressure is kinda like a—an artifact there sitting in the background.

Evan Brand:  Agreed, yeah, that’s exactly the case. They’ve been through 10, 20 people. They’ve been going for fatigue or joint pain, but “Oh, I happen to have high blood pressure, too”. And it’s something that gets thrown to the back burner and I don’t think it should be on the back burner.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly and most people there are just seeing their medical doctor, and medical doctors are more than happy to manage it which we mention is great in acute cases, right? But long-term, that’s not gonna be the best option because of the nutrient deficiency. So in the end, you know, don’t look at your medical doctor as the long-term person to give you the answers to fix it. They’re just there to help manage it and again, I mean, who wants to manage, I don’t know, diarrhea forever? You want the diarrhea fixed. Who wants to manage a headache forever? You want the headache fixed. So management’s okay in the short run, but in the long run, it gets pretty frustrating and you want to get to the root cause.

Evan Brand:  Amen. You can only put so much duct tape over that—that red light on your dashboard and you just gotta fix what the problem is. Why is that light on in the first place?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, yeah. Well, this was a great holiday show. I mean, everyone is probably—well, I shouldn’t say everyone but a lot of people are gonna be getting their carbs and the refined sugar and gluten on on this holiday season. I will not be or if I do, it’s good to be in a—a way that is ideally grain-free and lower sugar, so I get the mouth feel effects, i.e, the food tastes good but I don’t get all the collateral damage later.

Evan Brand:  Agreed. So what if you wanted to do like some mashed potatoes and gravy, would you do something like that and try to get a wheat-free gravy taken care of like a slow-cooked turkey they would have some natural gravy coming off of it or what? How would you do it?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, yeah, some mashed potatoes, I mean, loaded up with some good butter, heavy cream, and then for your gravy, you just throw some of the drippings from the turkey in there with some celery and I use carrots, and I blend it up just like that and it’s just super thick. If you want to make a little thicker, you can add a little bit of coconut flour and that’ll give you a nice thick gravy there, and if you want you know, don’t go to the potatoes, go to the sweet potatoes that have a little bit of a lower glycemic index, i.e. they don’t—

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  They don’t go and then will convert to sugar in your blood as fast, so that could be a good move or you can do the white potato. You can do 25% white potato, 75% cauliflower mash, and you mix it in and it gives a—a pretty similar mouth feel mall feel you won’t really know that much if you’re not using it another glycemic load is decreased by 75%.

Evan Brand:  I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That means less insulin.

Evan Brand:  That’s excellent. Excellent. Yeah, I got my wife converted over to sweet potatoes now. She’s like, “Wow, these are so much better than white potatoes..” I’m like, “I’ve been telling you that for three years.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. Anytime I’m dealing with patient’s—the key thing with dealing with patients when you’re making diet changes, the first thing that they go to in their head is like, “Oh, crap. I gotta remove these foods.”

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That creates a stress response. So I’m like, “No. We gotta be solution-oriented.” What’s the substitute? Because there’s tons of substitutes. So if we get them thinking about what’s the substitutes? How can I create the mouth feel? How can I get that taste in my mouth that I want that I’m missing by eating the bad food? How can we get with the good food? So like last night, I wanted a whole bunch of pasta. I’m like, “Oh, I really want pasta.” So I got some miracle noodles which are made from glucomannan, a fiber, basically has zero calories and zero sugar, and I did a whole bunch of butter noodles and I had it with some rotisserie chicken, and it was phenomenal, and I felt like I was eating pasta, but no sugar, no grains, virtually no calories which obviously calories don’t matter but it’s nice that you can eat a lot of it and it’s not gonna impact your insulin levels.

Evan Brand:  That is so cool, yeah, and I’ll speak for—for myself and possibly you, too—put it this way. I love eating if this way of eating was horrible, I wouldn’t do it. I mean, I am not missing out on taste or pleasure from my food at all. I’m more satiated than ever before. I feel so much better. My brain works so much better. The—there is light at the end of the tunnel for sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, my favorite line is nothing tastes as good as good feels.

Evan Brand:  Say that again.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nothing tastes as good as good feels.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Meaning, it—for me it’s more rewarding to feel good later than to get that short taste in the moment of some crappy inflammatory foods. Because in the end it’s great but then I just feel crappy. I’m bloated. I’m gassy. I got brain fog. So you gotta weigh in that, you gotta weigh in the deleterious side effects with that short-term thing and a lot of times, there’s a risk for more analysis you can do where you can do where you can pull out some sugar, maybe use some Stevia or Xylitol or cut down the carbs or do a different source there that’s less inflammatory where you feel good and then honestly, if you’re like, “Screw it!” Well, throw in some charcoal. Take a whole bunch of charcoal to help decrease the toxins. That’s another good Plan B.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I feel like we’re rambling at this point. I feel like this is the talk after the first cider has set in—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Evan Brand:  After the main conversation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes. I know. Nice little tidbit for anyone listening though. These are all gems I think though.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, let’s wrap this thing up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  Go check out Justin’s site. Justinhealth.com and then check out NotJustPaleo.com. You could reach out to one of us, get help, get to the root cause. Justin’s got some free thyroid videos. I’ve got some videos on my site as well you could check out. So plenty of information. There’s no shortage of—of clinical pearls at this point I don’t think.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. Anyone that’s—well, everyone that’s getting ready to celebrate their holidays, I wish you a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, and if you’re kinda on the fence here trying to figure out when’s a good time to make changes in your health because you’re struggling, now’s always a great time. The New Year is coming up, so feel free and reach out to Evan or myself. Info is below and we wish you a super happy and healthy new year.

Evan Brand:  Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Thanks, Evan. You, too.

Evan Brand:  Bye.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bye.

Putting together the optimal functional medicine program – Podcast #116

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand discuss about effective functional medicine programs and how they create and follow protocols. This interview goes in-depth about the world of functional medicine practice.

functional medicine programsFind out why you shouldn’t wait for something to happen before doing anything about it health-wise. Discover the differences between Body System One and Two and how optimal health can be attained. Learn about the various tests you can take and the right tools that are available to further achieve better and more effective results with functional medicine.

In this episode, topics include:

01:26   Get help as early as possible

07:00   Body System One

10:19   Diet and lifestyle

17:16   Body System Two

38:22   Tests

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youtuve

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, Evan, it’s Dr. J in the flesh. How we doin’ this Monday?

Evan Brand:  Hey, man! I’m doing great. How are you?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I’m doing great. Can’t complain. It’s a little rainy Monday here in Austin. The grass is getting plenty of water which is great. I got the fireplace on behind me, so it’s got that wintery Christmas feel a little bit.

Evan Brand:  Nice. Excellent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Can’t complain. How about you?

Evan Brand:  Doing well, man. Hey, we were trying to record this thing, and then we had choppy audio so I wanna repeat what my little rant was because I thought that was important. I’m always curious about what is the catalyst for someone to work with yourself or myself, and I had a lady this morning who had been listening to us for six months and she knew that she had problems. She had a lot of gut issues going on but she continued to just listen to try to fix herself, and then she got the diagnosis of alopecia and now she’s lost over half the hair on her head, and now she’s figured out that that’s the time to come and get help. And I just want that to be a fire under people’s butts listening that you shouldn’t wait until things are so bad that you’re at rock bottom before you get help and unfortunately, that’s the conventional system that we’ve all been brainwashed to do which is we wait until we’re really bad, we absolutely need a doctor or practitioner and then we go get help. And my advice, get help now. If you have symptoms and things are off, and this is something you’ve—you’ve trained me on so much. It’s like, “Evan, look, these issues are not gonna resolve themselves. You have to resolve issues now. They’re not just gonna magically disappear.” Did you wanna speak on that a little bit about people just waiting too long or people just not having enough reason so they think to get help?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, well, there was an interesting scenario just the recently. There was a plumber in my house a few months back and he was doing some work, and there was just like a leak on the faucet, and for some reason the leak went away the next day. So there were two plumbers there and he goes down and looks, and he couldn’t find the leak. And he goes, “Well, maybe it just went away,” and then his partner, the plumber next to him spoke up and said, “You know what? Leaks never go away on their own. If there’s a leak, it’s gonna get worse.” So he went down there and he looked, and he said, “Okay, well, we just need more flow and if you had more flow coming, it would start to leak.” And he looked a little deeper back and he found the leak and just the environment wasn’t quite right enough for the leak to be expressing itself but the whole idea was that these problems don’t ever tend to go away by themselves. So that was kind of the moral of the story and connecting it to your patient, let’s say if you have these symptoms, they’re gonna get worse and the question is, how long do you wanna wait until those symptoms, right? Pain, pay attention inside now—that’s what symptoms are—whether it’s aesthetic, whether it’s inflammatory, whether it’s mood or energy. How bad do they have to get before you start getting a—a fire under your butt so to speak.

Evan Brand:  Right. Well, and my grandparents, their old house, you know, they had issues with their plumbing and they had to wait until their entire basement was flooded and thousands and thousands of dollars’ worth of carpet and furniture was ruined due to the flood before they came in and got the issue. So maybe they saved, you know, a couple hundred bucks in the beginning, but then it cost them likely $10,000 or more in the long run because they waited until things just hit an absolute worst-case scenario. So you know, I know there’s a lot of people out there listening that are trying to fix themselves and you and I certainly applaud that. I mean that’s what this is all about, right? Taking your health into your own hands and us teaching you how to fish, but at a certain level, you really just have to reach out and—and don’t be afraid to get better and—and don’t be afraid. You know, we’re real people. We don’t bite and we’re here for you. That’s what this is for. The show is to inspire you and to help you, but there’s nothing that’s gonna replace a one-on-one, you know, with one of us because there’s so many courses and online things, and things that you can look into, but it’s not specialized and I’m against specialization if you only look at one person. But you know, something we’re gonna talk about today is functional medicine is a specialty but we’re breaking that down. We’re—we’re looking at someone. We’re casting a net wide enough to look at every body system, so that we’re gonna figure out what in the world going on with somebody.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%. And so the template for how we treat patients is pretty unique for—for us as functional medicine clinicians, right? There a lot of nutritionists out there that will primarily just focus on the diet piece. There are a lot of medical doctors out there that I find that will a lot of time skip the diet, maybe focus on more of the hormones and ignore the gut. You have other people that will only work on infections, whether it’s Lyme or a gut doctor. They’re only focused on the infections. So the question is, how do we become the general or the ultimate general practitioner, where we can pull the key issues from the infections, from the hormones, from the diet, from the lifestyle, from the digestive system, and combine them together and mesh it? So we put it all together in a way that is holistic, that represents the underlying cause from each person, because that underlying cause percentage-wise may be different for each, meaning one person that may be 60% diet, 30% infections, and 10% hormones, and others it may be 30% diet, 50% hormones, 20% gut. So you gotta look at it from the perspective of what piece may be the bigger player, and it may not be the same for each person. So we may not know, but if we hit them all in the order that we consider to be the order of priority, that’s gonna give us the highest chance of hitting all of those key issues and not missing them.

Evan Brand:  Right, and during the free calls, you and I block out just a few hours each month for free calls, which we’re always booked up for those and it’s a true honor to be able to offer that to people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Evan Brand:  A lot of people ask us, “Hey, Justin or hey, Evan, you know, can you just tell me right now what tests we’re gonna need to run.” And we can’t because that involves a case review, that involves looking at your history, looking at the fork in the road when did things get bad, how long have things gotten bad, what else was going on at that time in your life in terms of stress and travel and relationships and moving. You know, so there really is no one-size-fits-all program. Now there are similar tests that we run on nearly everyone, but at the end of the day, it’s so case-by-case and I know people wanna just get put into a box because it makes them feel comfortable. I mean, think of like Weight Watchers, right? You know, it’s a point system and you can buy their little hundred-calorie snack packs of pretzels. But that’s a horrible box to be in and you don’t wanna be confined there. So it—it’s a box of functional medicine but it’s a box without boundaries, too, because we never know what toolbox or toolkit we’re gonna need to reach into to pull something out specifically based on—on your symptoms.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%. So we wanted kinda get things dialed in, and we have like the pallet of our tests that we may choose from for body system one. That’s like the hormonal system and we break that up into ATF and ATM, adrenals, thyroid and female hormones for our female patients and then our ATM, adrenals, thyroid and male hormones. And depending on how deep we go is depending upon what kind of symptoms present themselves and how long the patient’s been sick. Typically, the longer someone’s been sick, it may be better to get more data so we can fine tune the plan better, more specific to what’s going on. If someone’s been maybe not feeling good for just a little bit of time, maybe only a few years or a few months, we may run less off the bat because we don’t need as much data. Typically, the low hanging fruit tend to work on people that aren’t as chronic. So that’s kind of a good rule of thumb. So our body system one test are gonna typically include high-quality adrenal tests. Well, and that depends. I know we’re going back and forth and testing, you know, the new Biohealth saliva test that’ll be out soon. We’ve been using the Dutch for a bit of time. We have been using the old Biohealth 201. I have lots of patients that come in with other subpar salivary hormone testing that—that come in. We also look at the DHEA sulfate, which is an adrenal marker of sex hormone precursors from the adrenals, DHEA sulfate. And then we’ll also add on female and male hormones to those tests, whether it’s female hormones, progesterone, estrogen, estrogen metabolites, the different kinds of estrogens, estradiol, estrone, estriol, whether we are looking at the DHEA metabolites like androstenedione or etiocholanolone. Those also get factored in, maybe even melatonin as well. So we’ll look at all these different metabolites on the hormone side and then depending on if they’re showing with thyroid symptoms, we may even run a thyroid blood test or we’re looking at all of the thyroid markers, TSH, T4 Free and Total, T3 Free and Total, reverse T3, T3 uptake, and thyroid antibodies. So those are kind of all of the hormonal tests that we may run. And we even have some different. We may even time it up on day 20 of a female cycle if they’re—if they’re menstruating to get a window into where their hormones are tapping out. We may even look at a full month long panel, testing hormones every other day for a full month, so we can get a window of ovulation and the ebb and flow of the hormones throughout the month, just to make sure it’s optimal for fertility.

Evan Brand:  Yup, well said. So body system one. I mean, this is the foundation, you know. You talk about these people that just focus on the gut and we’ve dealt with that. I mean a lot of times and I know you hear this just as much as me if not more, “Oh, I’ve already been to 10 specialists or 20 specialists or 20 doctors. They all think I’m crazy or they said it was just the gut. They gave me antibiotics.” If you don’t get the hormones aligned and checked out, you’re kinda wasting your time really because if you have cortisol issues, you’re likely gonna have leaky gut issues which is gonna leave you susceptible to infections. So it’s like if we come in and just hit the gut, which we’ll talk about in a minute, body system two, it’s not really worth it, right? Because if you get the infection gone, but the leaky gut’s still there due to the cortisol issues, I mean, that’s kind of a bigger top of the food chain issue, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100% and just backing up one bit, everything sits on a foundation. So the introductory foundation for everything is diet and lifestyle.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And we’ve talked about this before, but just to make sure we don’t miss it, the foundation is gonna be what you eat, when you eat, the quality of food that you eat, how you sleep, how you move, how you deal with stress, and hydration. So that’s gonna be a really important piece of the puzzle. Making sure we’re eating nutrient-dense, anti-inflammatory, low toxin foods. Making sure the diet is dialed in for you. Now what does that mean for you? Well, if you’re just a little bit sick, maybe you’re kinda in the middle, it’s not too bad, a Paleo template may be good to start with. Alright, no grains, no legumes, no dairy. If we’ve been sick for longer, maybe we have a history of autoimmunity in the family, or there may be known autoimmunity in yourself or known autoimmune symptoms, well, the next step may be an Autoimmune Paleo template where we go to the next step which is cutting out nuts, nightshades, and eggs. And then from there if there’s excessive gut issues, we may look at specific carbohydrate diet where we cut out salicylates and phenols and peel our vegetables and—and make sure everything’s well cooked and mash our foods. We may even look at a GAPS approach where we focus more on bone broth and soups and—and the same type SCD stuff, more in a liquid, palatable—a liquid, more palatable type of form. And we may even go to a low FODMAP diet where we cut out the fermentable carbohydrates–fermentable oligo-di-po—let’s see, fermentable oligo-di-mono and polysaccharides. So it’s your—your fermentable carbohydrates, your fermentable sugars. So we may add that piece onto it just to make sure that we’re taking as much stress off the body. We’re stabilizing blood sugar. We’re not adding toxins from the pesticides and chemicals and GMO and Roundup and—and the glyphosate and we’re stabilizing blood sugar. We’re not skipping meals and we’re making sure that we’re sleeping good at night and we’re hydrating appropriately in between meals or 10 minutes before, so we’re not diluting digestive enzymes and hydrochloric acid.

Evan Brand:  Well said and there’s a ton of overlap in all of those, too. I mean–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A ton.

Evan Brand:  You’re going to be omitting gluten. You’re gonna be omitting–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Many of the dairy components, the inflammatory component, then you’re going to stay away from pesticides and chemicals. I had a guy the other day. He asked me. He said, “Well, I’m not sensitive to gluten. So do I still have to avoid it?” I said, “Absolutely.” There’s no deficiency of gluten ever and just because you don’t think you’re sensitive to it, some of your skin rashes and all that is probably caused from some type of food intolerance. You know, you don’t have to be doubled over in pain from eating a bagel to—to necess—you know, to necessarily have to stay away from it, right? You don’t have to be falling over, needing a morphine shot due to the pain from gluten if you—if you have anything, any symptom, headaches. I mean I had a lady who had migraines for 20 years and it was amazing how simple it was just to get the diet and the gut cleaned up and the migraines went way. So I think people expect massive, massive symptom sometimes to be caused from gluten and otherwise, they don’t wanna get rid of it but you should just get rid of it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, my thing with grains and gluten is if you’re gonna cheat and you’re gonna do grains, number one, the safest grain for most people tend to be white rice. So that’s tends to be an okay alternative if you’re gonna do a grain, if you’re gonna cheat. White rice tends to be okay. Even better, try doing the safer starch. You know, yucca, plantains, sweet potatoes, let’s see—I said plantains, yucca, sweet potatoes,  squash—those type of safer starches tend to be a better alternative for most. Go ahead.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I was gonna say taro, too. Some people talk about that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Taro, arrowroot, yeah, and then also if you’re gonna—like let’s say you’re like, “I’m gonna do bread.” Well, sourdough bread has actually shown to have less gluten because of the fermentation process that gliadin protein tend to be more dissolved in the fermentation process. So if you’re gonna go get all glutened out, take a look at the good, better, best side of it, right? Good or best would be abstaining and doing zero grains. Good may be doing like white rice or better—sorry, better maybe doing like white rice or something that’s fully gluten-free. And then third would be, alright, fine. You’re gonna do a gluten bread, well, it’s gonna at least be fermented, i.e. sourdough bread. It’s fermented, so the gluten and the compounds in there that may be more allergenic are decreased. But the other things–

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That Evan and I still wanna touch upon are the lectins, are the phytates and the oxalates, the mineral disruptors, the protein disruptors, and the high amount of pesticide and Roundup that are on some of these products. So you can at least reduce it by going organic and by going the sourdough method so it’s at least fermented and soaked, so the grains are gonna be more palatable and not have the mineral and enzyme disruptors. But again, better, right? Good, better, best. Best is gonna be at least keeping the grains out. Good or better part is gonna be in between, going like a rice protein and then like, you know, good would be doing the fermented sourdough bread option like I just mentioned.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, and put it this way, it helps me sometimes to understand kind of the ancestral or the planetary perspective on this. These plants and these grains, they don’t want to get eaten–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, yeah.

Evan Brand:  And digested, right? I mean, they want to pass seed on through an animal and then it come out fully digest—or un—you know, undigested, fully undigested, so that that seed can go back into the ground and grow more grass or grain. I mean, that’s the goal with birds and humans, too, if it goes through and it’s not getting digested, the goal is for that seed to be intact enough to grow more plants, and they don’t wanna get eaten.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  So that—that’s enough reason there that—that makes sense and really help me. But like, “Oh, man. Wow. Okay.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And it’s pretty simple, right? You know, from evolution standpoints our role, I mean, it sounds crude is just to be able to pass on our—our seed to our offspring, right? That’s pretty much it. You know, be able to survive enough so you can procreate and pass on your DNA to your offspring. That’s pretty much it. Now there’s two ways of doing it. There’s having claws and weapons and tools and teeth, so you can prevent getting attacked on or preyed on, right? That’s like the wolf or the fox, or maybe us with our weapons as humans. And then there’s the, “Okay, I’m gonna get eaten, right?” Berries, grains, but there’s gonna be seeds and things that are gonna keep the seed and the DNA intact, so eventually maybe it will go back and be able to grow again and pass on its offspring so it can live again, right? So there’s two methods. It’s either you’re gonna fight now or you’re gonna basically submit but live the fight another day by passing itself back into the soil again so it can grow.

Evan Brand:  Yup, yup. Should we move on to body system two?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and then last piece that is the foundation with the diet, I’d say is also the emotions. So if there’s a lot of emotional stress, like there’s an active serious relationship issue. You know, not just like hey, you know, you had a fight here or there but you have active relationship problems. Maybe there’s an active divorce issue. Maybe you’re real problem with the child or a family member or maybe a death of a loved one or serious work stress, or stress at your church or where you go to—to have a spiritual connection, or you excessively exercise a ton, right? Those kind of things need to be looked at because they can provide a lot of stress underlying. So we wanna make sure there’s not an active emotional issue because it affects the timeline in which we expect healing to occur. If you’re actively going through a divorce or you’re having serious work issues, we may say hey, our goal is gonna be just to dig out feet in and prevent us from sliding downhill, and we may not be able to gain a whole bunch of ground going uphill.

Evan Brand:  Well said, yeah, and I’ll also mention the electromagnetic fields which I’ve done–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, yes.

Evan Brand:  Countless podcasts on. I had a lady the other day. She heard a podcast about EMF that—that was on the show and she bought a meter online and anything above 1 milligauss, a measure of magnetic field is bad, right? And this lady had 50 milligauss in her bedroom. And so she lives in San Francisco. She didn’t believe it. She called the power company as I told her to do and they came out and they measured, and sure enough, it was about 25 or 30 milligauss. So her meter was pretty inaccurate, but it was accurate enough to detect a problem that warranted further investigation. And even the power company was like, “Well, this is insanely high.” I mean, you’ll see some people that say anything above 3 milligauss of magnetic fields which comes from power lines is—is bad, but either way, 20, 50, that’s insane and so she’s moving immediately and she said she hadn’t slept well for months and kinda like my story that you and I chatted about when I had to move. I was measuring 7 milligauss in my office and I feel like I didn’t sleep. So I mean, that’s another cause of adrenal hormone issues that you and I are discussing and talking about with people because it’s—it’s an invisible smoke, right? If you had glasses that you could wear and see this stuff, everybody would freak out. But it’s invisible. And like my friend Eric Windheim says, “It’s like fighting a ghost.” So you have to measure this stuff and—and mitigate it, and there’s more. We won’t go into more detail today, but just check out EMF in the search bar on the website, and you’ll be able to find, you know, more episodes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. So we addressed the foundational pieces, diet, lifestyle, emotional stress, meal timing, nutrient density–

Evan Brand:  Environmental.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Toxins from the chemical. Toxins are essentially—the electromagnetic toxins, right? That’s kinda in that toxin realm.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We hit that. We talked about the hormones, ATM, ATF. And then next step is gut function/gut infections. Now typically when we start out with the diet piece, depending on what’s happening symptomatically, if we see a lot of reflux, a lot of bloating, let’s say we have a history of vertical ridging in the nails or we see a lot of undigested food particulate or the stool looks grayer or the stool floats or we have poor hair quality or very dry skin, these are all symptoms that we’re not digesting our food optimally. So to support the diet piece, we may bring some of the digestive support up forward, and bring it into intro phase. What I mean is we may bring in some of the hydrochloric acid, some of the enzymes, some of the bitters, some of the digestive support to help stimulate digestion because we see that as supporting the intro phase. We’re working on digesting foods and making sure that piece is dialed in. So that may have to be brought up forward because it’s—it supports the foundation. That’s number one. Number two is we have to knock out the infections. So as we look at body system two, we really break it down into 5 steps. So number one is remove the bad foods. Number two is replace the enzymes and acids like I mentioned. So that’s the digestive support to make the intro diet piece work better. Number three is repair and repair means repairing the adrenals because we have to make sure that piece is there. because we don’t wanna work on really healing the gut, until we have the hormonal environment dialed in to help reduce inflammation and help heal the gut lining and help improve IgA levels, which is the localized immune system in the digestive tract. We also wanna make sure healing nutrients are present for people that have extra gut inflammation or extra gut irritation. Things like L-glutamine and the healing nutrients, the licorice root, deglycerized licorice root, maybe slippery elm, maybe cat’s claw, maybe some gentle amino acids like L-glutamine, and Jerusalem artichoke, etc. These are healing nutrients that help that gut lining. Number four is the removing of the infections and we’re able to remove the infections most adequately because of the 3 phases before it. Because of the removing the foods, the replacing the enzymes and acids, the repair in the gut lining and the adrenals, now we can come in and we can start working on removing the infections, and the infections are gonna be specific to the stool test we recommend to pick up the infection. So the H. pylori comes back or fungus comes back or various multiple parasites come back, those all need to be specifically addressed with unique protocols for each. And then number five is going to be the re-inoculation with robotics, really receding all of the good seeds after the weeding’s been done. And then number six is gonna be the retesting to make sure one, infections are cleared and two, there are no new infections as last podcast talked about, making sure there are no resistant infections that were burrowed in deeper that are showing their ugly head, and the only exception will be adding probiotics in the repair phase. Because sometimes probiotics can have an anti-inflammatory effect, and depending on how bad the gut is, we may add some probiotics in the ref—the repair phase as well as the reinoculation phase to help support gut healing and inflammation.

Evan Brand:  Well said. I wanna speak just for a minute and see if you wanna add anything to it about the topic of antibiotic use and infections. There’s a lot of hate on the Internet about herbal remedies for infections, you know, whether it’s an M.D. or a naturopath or someone. You know, getting in an argument about saying, “Oh, herbs don’t work. You have to use triple therapy or this antibiotic or this antifungal prescription.” And there’s very, very, very, very few cases where it takes us more than one or two rounds to get rid of an infection using just herbs, no prescription. So could you add something to that conversation, too? I would 95% of patients can address their gut function and their got infections with herbs alone. 5% of the time we may have resistant bugs that we’ve treated, re-test, still there. Treated, retest, still there. Treated, retest, still there. And it’s 2-3 times and we’re not able to knock it out. But I’ve had people go and on the third time, we knock it out. So the antibiotics may be an option for some people. The conventional antibiotics that are typically run like the metronidazole, the Flagyl, which are the most commonly prescribed ones for these infections tend to miss the infection about two-thirds of the time. And then a lot of times the antibiotics prescribed for your typical triple therapy for H. pylori like clarithromycin, amoxicillin, and/or omeprazole like Prilosec, acid-blocking medications, tend to do the same kind of thing. They’ll miss the infections a third half the time.

Evan Brand:  Well, what about this, too? What about creating more resistant strains due to the antibiotics that have been so overused? Which then makes our job a little bit tougher because people have gone through rounds and rounds of this crap and it’s done nothing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. That’s the problem is you run the risk of having these antibiotics not work in the time where maybe you really need them, like you get in a car accident or you step on a—a rusty nail or some, some kind of infection that’s more acute and more severe based on the exposure of the microbes. So I’m always about conservative to invasive, right? What’s the most conservative type of care off the bat? It’s always gonna be diet. It’s always gonna be lifestyle. It’s always gonna be using antimicrobial herbal medicines that have been around for literally thousands of years to have a strong safety profile, to have the ability to use them long-term without resistance–

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And also aren’t gonna wipe out a—as many other microbes, any other beneficial microbes the may be present that are helpful for your gut. We won’t wipe those out and create more problems. I can’t tell you how many patients I’ve seen that have been on antibiotics and had devastating side effects, and now we’re treating them from the damage caused by the antibiotics in the beginning. I’ve seen it so many times. Don’t see it with herbs though.

Evan Brand:  I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But I see all the time with antibiotics so I’m always very conservative and we go up in—in gradations on what step one is. Herbs. Step two. Herbs. Step three. Maybe herbs. And then if we’re still having issues, then we go and we lean towards the antibiotics, typically on step three most of the time.

Evan Brand:  Yup, yup. Well said. And just the fact that this has been used, the herbs that we’re talking about. They’re been used for thousands of years before antibiotics were invented. To me that says something about the success rate and the safety. So when people read concerns about herbs. A lot of times the concerns are unwarranted unless you’re talking about mixing herbs with pharmaceuticals, like you know, 5HTP and SSRIs and stuff like that. Yeah, you can get into trouble. But generally, there’s really nothing to be concerned about compared to the tens and if not hundreds of thousands of people dying due to medical error. That’s now the third leading cause of death. Did you know that? Medical error.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Evan Brand:  So—so this—this is real. This isn’t something were just saying on our—on our high horse. You know, this is for real. Look at CDC death or medical top causes of death. You’ll see medical error and this is from the proper, you know, or this is the prescribed rather is what I meant to say, the prescribed dose of a medication is still causing third leading cause of death, is medical error.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I know. I know Barbara Starfield has her prized article in the Journal of the American Medical Association 2000, all on how much medications and surgical procedures done correctly, right? Hey, the surgery was a success but the patient died. Hey, the prescription was—was perfect according to what the patient’s symptomatology was, but the patient had an ulcer and died, right? Just like that happens with ibuprofen 19,000 times a year according to the New England Journal of Medicine. So we know there’s a risk with conventional treatments. So we wanna be as conservative as possible, so we don’t have to go to those type of higher risk procedures.

Evan Brand:  Agreed, agreed. Well said. So yeah, the infections are huge. I mean, Justin and I, we have more podcasts on that talking about our own history with infections. So not only are we in the trenches helping others remove them, but we’re doing it on ourselves, too. So this is—this is a huge piece and has been instrumental for me to get my—my weight back when I’ve lost, you know, 20 pounds of muscle from infections. So this is a real big deal in something that has to be addressed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Correct, and I think the key thing, too, is we’re not anti-medication.

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We’re all about using the correct tool at the right time, but also weighing the pros and cons. Like if we’re, you know, we got our tool bag on or our toolbelt on, right? And we have all these different tools in our tool bag, alright? And we look at this screw and it’s the flathead groove in it, so we know I gotta pull my Phillips head out, right? I’m not gonna look at that screw and be like, “Screw this, my dog must not gonna allow me to use this flathead, throw it away and then try to pull it—the Phillips in there and try to work it.” So let’s say it’s a—a flathead groove, I’m not gonna look at flathead screwdriver and throw it away, and say, “I’m gonna try using a Phillips, right?” I’m gonna go and say, “Well, this is the right tool for it. So I’m gonna put it in and I’m gonna use the correct tool based on what’s presenting itself.” That’s like if you get in a car accident, we’re not gonna look at the patient and say, “Great! Let’s just throw you on some turmeric right now and call it a day.”

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  No. We’re gonna say, “Go to the ER. Get the correct test to make sure there are no fractures, no bleeds, no hemorrhaging.” You may even want to be on some higher dose pain meds. You may want to avoid the opiate ones, right? Because of the addiction, but maybe some higher those pain meds acutely just because you’re in severe trauma and pain. And then we’ll get you stabilized and then we’ll get you on a really good routine after. So we look at the right routine. If we see that flathead groove, we’re reaching for the flathead screwdriver. We’re not reaching for the Phillips.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, absolutely. And if you break your arm, yeah, you don’t go take a dose of turmeric and fish oil. I mean, you need to get that checked out and make sure there’s no internal bleeding, etc., etc. So there’s no trophy for—for trying to be a hero and dismissing the acute, incredible trauma medicine that—that is offered. You know, it’s just the things we’re dealing with, their 1, 5, 10, 20, 30-year chronic issues and that’s where functional medicine tends to have far superior success rates. You know, 90+ percent success rates that you and I both have.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, and some of the things that are talked about regarding antibiotics, and I’ll put some of the research in the show notes, but antibiotics can create oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunction. That’s a big issue, so the mitochondria is gonna be the powerhouse of the cell which is gonna help generate ATP which is like the fuel currency for energy, and also creates oxidative stress which is just a way of breaking down your body, right? Oxidation, you leave a rusty nail in the rain, it gets all rust or you leave a nail out in the rain, it gets rusty because of that oxidation process. We have internal rusting. Doesn’t quite show itself like that, a brownish rust, but it happens—it happens internally and that creates a depletion of a lot of your antioxidant reserves. So your body has to use up more vitamin C, use up more vitamin E, use up more nutrients that would typically be used for other healthy functions. So oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunction are a side effect of some of these antibiotics use. So we really want to make sure if we’re using them—excuse my frog on my throat—we wanna make sure they are used appropriately for the right situation.

Evan Brand:  Well said. Yeah, and I’ll briefly mention, typically for body system two, we’re gonna be looking at comprehensive stool testing. We’ve discussed that. So whether PCR-based testing or otherwise, and then also the organic acids testing. So you hear us talking, maybe it sounds fancy, mitochondrial issues, amino acid metabolite problems, etc. but we can see and I see it all the time. Vitamin C levels, very, very, very low across the board most time on organic acids which is a urine test that you do at home and then you send that back to the lab and then we go over the results and then stool testing, you’re gonna be able to find infections. You’re gonna go through the protocol and then you’re gonna retest and the infections are gonna be gone. So that’s—that’s it for body system two. Let’s go on to body system three, Justin. So detox, methylation, making sure that people are able to actually do things at the end of the line. Once everything has happened, once a good digestion has happened, you’ve absorbed your minerals, your colon’s helping to produce vitamins for energy, your probiotics are doing the things they should be doing, now it’s time to get the stuff out of the body. We’re hoping the liver is gonna be able to do what it can do. We’re hoping you’re pooping, right? I mean, people buy all these fancy detox powders and teas, but it’s like if you’re not pooping but once a week, that’s a huge issue. That’s a great way to detox, poop and pee. How simple and revolutionary is that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%. Poop, pee, breathing, and sweating. It’s like un—unreal. So looking at a lot of the detox things, certain nutrients are required to detox. So you can see why number three, why detox is put number three. Let’s just break that down so everyone can get the—understand the concept. Again in this show, we’re really committed to being able to teach concepts because if you get the concept, there’s zero memorization involved in it. Once you get the concept, it’s like riding a bike. You get back on—Boom! You never have to go to that learning curve of falling. So what’s the concept? So number one, if we’re poor foods and eating toxic foods, and foods that are nutritionally poor, what happens to detox? Automatically impaired.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right? So why are we gonna work on detox off the bat? Because if we just get that first phase done, we’re starting to work on detox even though we’re not working on it directly, because it’s body system three, we already worked on it in the intro phase. Number one. Number two, we actually start breaking down the foods. That means we start breaking down the proteins into their smaller amino acid constituents and we know how important the sulfur based amino acids for operating phase 2 detoxification. Phase 2 is like the n-acetylation, hydroxylation, the glutathione production, the methylation, and we need methionine and we need cysteine and glutamine and glycine and taurine, and all these really important sulfur aminos, and if we can’t break down our protein constituents into those smaller products, you know? Ripping off the pearl necklace and pulling off the individual pearls, that’s what it’s akin to. If we can’t do that, we’re not gonna be able to run phase 2 and then frankly we need lots of antioxidants and B vitamins to run phase 1. So if we have SIBO or dysbiosis, well, our probiotic production internally from our gut bacteria is automatically forwarded or downregulated because we know good bacteria in our gut produces a lot of those nutrients for us, right? Good bacteria eats poop and poops nutrition, B vitamins, antioxidants, nutrients. Bad bacteria eats nutrition and poops poop. Bad bacteria makes you more toxic. So what is the more toxicity from the bad bacteria due to body system three? It decreases its function. So you can see how we lead up to diet and lifestyle. We lead up to digesting food. We lead up to healthy gut bacteria, knocking out infection, addressing the flora, because all of that sets the stage for body system three, so we can come in there and really support the nutrients that are missing, the pathways that aren’t working properly, and we can potentially even knockout specific heavy metals if we see heavy metals are in there with other types of chelators and compounds that pull the metals out. And some of the test we do—well, I’ll take a breath there, Evan. Any comments?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I mean, well said. I wanted to mention this comes at the end because we want to make sure that everything else has been addressed upstream. I mean we’re not going to go straight to detox if we know that you have infections and we know that you’re still getting, let’s say artificial sweeteners in your diet which can be placing a burden on the liver, right? So we want to see the liver and your detoxification abilities, methylation, this includes anybody with like MTHFR genetic defects. This includes you, too. All that other stuff’s gotta be taken care of first because we want to see what the actual baseline is. Not the baseline when you are doing so much sugar and alcohol and bad fats and artificial sweeteners and all of that that’s got the burden on the liver. So once we get all that stuff out of the way, then we take a look at body system three. It’s the, “Oh, okay, so this is the true baseline,” and then yeah we can look for heavy metals, from dental fillings, amalgams, you know, bad food, bad water, too much tuna fish, other environmental exposures, and then we can start helping to get the detox system working better because if you’re not pooping well and you have an overburdened liver, you’re just gonna be recirculating all these toxins. So then you’re gonna get the joint pain and the allergies and the asthma, and the skin problems, the headaches, the brain fog, alcohol intolerance, I mean, we could go on and on but you gotta get all that other stuff taken care first, so if you go straight to detox or somebody tries to sell you on some detox protocol first when you don’t even know if you have leaky gut or not, I would be cautious and maybe you have more to say about that, but I don’t like the idea of pushing stuff out of people’s body if they don’t even have enough trash men to come gather all of the trash at the end of the road.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, 100%. So we have everything lead up to it and I think you emphasized the whole leaky gut part right because the leaky gut as you mentioned is really the consequence of all of the inflammation, the inability to break down food, the compromised immune system, and then the infections. All of that will lead to leaky gut. So leaky gut isn’t necessarily a result. It’s more of an effect of all of the inflammation and the damage.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right? The gluten, the bad foods, all of the inflammation. So that’s kind of the end product that you get there is leaky gut. So looking at everything that you mentioned. How do we quantify it? Because you put some really good points out there. How do we actually know what’s going on from the detoxification side? Well, we’ll look at an organic acid test. Typically as a good starting point because we’ll get a window into various detoxification pathways, whether it’s pyroglutamate or other types of organic acids, sulfate—these are organic acids that will give us a window into how those sulfur aminos are doing. If the demand for them is higher or if they’re depleted. And we’ll also get a window into B vitamin status. We’ll get a window into methylation and we’ll also get a window into oxidative stress by looking at the 8-hydroxy 2-deoxyguanosine for instance. Again, these are all like jeopardy words but these are organic acids that give us a window into all these systems, whether it’s simply xanthorrhoea for B6, whether it’s the amino acids for the brain with vanilmandelate or homovanilate or 5-hydroxyindoleacetate or whether it’s markers for gut bacteria like hippurate or benzoate. So these—these markers give us a big window into what’s happening and the organics can really help tell us what’s happening there from some of those detox nutrients, and we may even look at like a SpectraCell or a NutrEval as well. Again, I lean more towards the organics because that’s my baby.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The NutrEval combines the organics with another blood test for nutrients, too. So that’s a—another side option which at least does contain the organics and that gives us a good window into what’s happening but we always go back to intro, body system one, hormones, ATF, ATM; body system two, the ability to digest, removing food allergens, healing the leaky gut, repairing the gut lining, removing infections, adding in probiotics, and retesting because we gotta make sure new infections aren’t there and the old ones are gone. Number—body system three is gonna be detox nutrients and that’s typically where we follow suit, and we reserve the right to kinda move some things in. Like if I know someone has a ton of oxidative stress, I may throw some extra vitamin C that we may discover on an organics test, I may throw it in with the adrenal protocol. So we do things and we mix-and-match outside of that box a bit, so if any patients are listening, they may think, “Well, Dr. J gave me some detox support in body system one,” and that’s gonna be dependent upon how that person’s presenting, how sensitive they are, and how bad their detox is. We may add some small things in with body system one, because maybe the adrenal support is too much for their liver, and we need to give their liver just a little bit of support so they don’t have a lot of those hormone side effects.

Evan Brand:  Totally, well said. I’m gonna mention two things and then we can wrap it up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cool.

Evan Brand:  One for me on the organics, which I just love is the quinolinic 5-HIAA ratio–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Looking at inflammation because you could go on and on and sound fancy, but when someone sees inflammation and you’re like, “Look, here it is.” It’s like, “Oh, crap.” Because inflammation, you know, even a conventional physician is gonna talk about inflammation as a cause of disease, right? And so when we can actually prove that to a client or a patient, it’s incredible and it’s very profound to be able to do that and then whether it’s 3, 4, 6 months later when the retest comes, and you can see that that number’s gone down, it’s very, very rewarding for both of us, and lastly, the toxin piece, too, something that Justin and I have been talking about a lot and—and I’m running on—I’m running this test on nearly everyone I possibly can–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Including myself is the GPL-TOX so I can look at the toxic load because I bought a sauna based on my toxic load of insecticides, and this is not a challenge or a push test so even the sickest people, we don’t have to worry about doing any type of chelation which may push some stuff out. You just urinate in—in the morning in a cup and you send it off. And the cool thing is you can run it side-by-side with the organics, so it’s literally the same urine sample. All you have to do is spend a little bit extra investment to get both test run organics and GPL-TOX at the same time, and I had insecticide levels in my body that are known carcinogens that were higher than they should be. And so for me, this is a huge, huge, huge new realm of opening up this. Look, we know there’s detox problems. Let’s fix it, but what are we actually fixing. You know, that had always been the question, right? Ooh, there’s detox problems. Man, you got headaches. You got chemical sensitivity. You can’t handle perfumes, gas fumes. Look, here’s why. And oh, man, is there anything more fun in the world than this? I mean, I—I don’t think so.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I agree. I mean, it’s like we’re CSI detectives without all the—the murder and blood, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We’re trying to put together the—the puzzle piece that’s really getting people’s quality of life back. So just summarizing those tests. We run the organics test. We run maybe the OAT, which is the—the Great Plains Lab organics. We run the GPL-TOX. We may run the NutrEval, the SpectraCell and then we have the heavy metal challenge test where we challenge, with a chelation compound, like DMPS or DMSA or EDTA to get a window into the toxic burden of metals because metals don’t want to stay in systemic circulation. They don’t wanna stay in the blood. They only go on the blood acutely in that first 24 to 48 hours, then they go into the tissue.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Whether it’s the brain or the individual tissues or even bones when it comes to lead. So we gotta get a window into it so we have to do a challenge, a provocation agent that can go in into the tissues and really kinda pull things out. It’s like, “Hey, you go outside. You look for bees. There may not bees swarming around, but if there’s a beehive there, well provocation agent’s throw rock into the beehive, right?” You know those bees are in that beehive when those—when that rock hits it and those bees come out, that’s the provocation agents. So we use that same kind of methodology with the heavy metal test. The rock is like the chelation compound that we use to see what’s coming out in the urine and a lot of times we see aluminum, we see arsenic, we see cadmium, and we see a whole bunch of mercury and lead, and it’s different for each person.

Evan Brand:  Yup, absolutely, and then you got blood metals, too. Quicksilver’s Blood Metals is cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand: There’s the Mercury Tri Test, too, for hair, blood, urine. There’s so many different things out there. A lot of them are good. A couple of them are bad, but you know, we’ll help you to make the distinction what is right for you and this is case-by-case. Some people they may not need to investigate metals. Other people they’ll come to us and they’ll say, “Evan or Justin, man, I got metal problems.” And they just have a gut feeling and in those cases, I say, “Okay, cool. Let’s get you checked out.“ It’s not gonna hurt. It can only help you to investigate. So if you have a gut feeling and that gut feeling can be disrupted obviously if you have got problems, right? Because the inflammation in the gut, you might be getting mixed signals, but if you have a gut feeling, ask us, and let us help you to investigative. If it’s something we didn’t bring up yet or maybe it’s early in the game and we wanted to do it later, just bring it up because you never know. You could be onto something that we just haven’t got to yet and that may save us, you know, a month or two of—of time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. And again, we’ll the show notes for everything, the full transcription, again in my new Thyroid Book that will be coming out very soon, just putting the finishing touches on it, we’re gonna have a chapter in the book all on this type of discussion, putting it all together because I feel like this is probably one of the key pieces that most functional medicine practitioners and doctors really, it—it’s very esoteric. It’s kind of in the ether. Like how does it all look?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Like what does the whole plan look like? And it just kinda like, you feel like almost like they’re making it up as they go and I think is really important if you’re gonna hou—you know, you’re gonna hike Mt. Everest so to speak, I wanna see that map. I want to know how we’re gonna go up there. I wanna know how we’re navigate that crevice and—and get across that—that ledge or that cliff. I wanna kinda feel like it makes sense when we get directions. So I think that’s a really important piece that we’re adding, is that clarity and that, you know, what’s our fu—future pacing vision? How are we getting to the top?

Evan Brand:  Yup, amen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Anything you wanna add there, Evan?

Evan Brand:  I don’t think so. I think this was great and fun as always, real honor. If people want to schedule, go to justinhealth, J-U-S-T-I-N, Justinhealth.com to schedule with Justin. If you want to schedule with myself, go to notjustpaleo.com and like I said, we both block out a few hours, so you know, if there’s a spot available, you wanna grab it for the 15-minute free call. See if we’re a good fit, you know, discuss your options together. Justin and I are happy to do that and we look forward to helping you all out. You know, listening to this is one thing. Getting in the trenches with us is another, and I mean without functional medicine, I would likely still be dealing with depression and irritable bowel syndrome and skin issues and fatigue and insomnia and adrenal problems. I mean, every aspect, everything that could’ve gone wrong was wrong in my body systems and just one by one, plucking these things off the list, and there’s never a finish line, right? I mean it’s always a continual journey. So you’re just always pushing to the next step ahead and this is your time. You know, you don’t have to suffer.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. I appreciate the hope and the inspiration, Evan.

Evan Brand:  Yes, sir.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Great chat. Great chat. Look forward to chatting with you very soon.

Evan Brand:  You, too. Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Have an awesome day!

Evan Brand:  You, too. Bye.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bye.

Rachel Adams – Lifestyle strategies to get your health back on track – Podcast #113

Dr. Justin Marchegiani’s guest for this podcast episode is Rachel Adams. Listen as she shares her life journey that will inspire people who are experiencing the same similar issues as she did to really fight and become who they are meant to be. 

Rachel AdamsDiscover how changing your diet, adjusting sleeping habits, paying close attention to nutrition, and taking time to exercise, even in subtle ways can surely impact your overall health and wellness. Learn practical tips and tricks that you can apply in your life right now to get you moving in the right direction health-wise.

In this episode, topics include:

01:05   Rachel’s story

09:03   The 90-day journey

14:35   Diet changes

28:25   Sleep habits

36:26   Supplements for pain and inflammation

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey there, it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Welcome back to Beyond Wellness Radio. Today we have a really great interview with Rachel Adams. Rachel has a real interesting story. She is an executive, owns four different businesses, is really big in the real estate industry, and she had a health crisis about three years ago. And she’s taken a lot of the health principles that we talk about on the show, sleep, diet, nutrition, exercise, and she’s really turned her health around. I think it’s great for people that are in or were in Rachel’s situation to really have the hope to see someone that’s been where they are now and get out of it. So I’m happy to introduce Rachel to the show. Rachel, how you doin’?

Rachel Adams:  I’m awesome. Thank you so much for having me, happy whatever day today is to you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Happy Monday, right?

Rachel Adams:  Happy Monday!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cool. Well, why don’t you share with the listeners your story? I think you have a compelling story—people that are trying to make it, whether it’s they’re executives or entrepreneurs, or just a busy, you know, housewife that’s trying to make it by and has—is struggling with health symptoms. Why don’t you just talk about yourself and your story?

Rachel Adams:  Definitely. Well, you know, I—I really wanted—I’ve always kind of been a person who has struggled a little bit with like weight and body issues and, yeah, I’m 5 feet tall. So I’ve only going to—I’m never gonna grow vertically. I’ll only grow horizontally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Rachel Adams:  And so for me, weight’s been something I really struggled with, but what happened is that I—I hit top without an agent for the country, for the Wall Street Journal for real estate in three years. And so from the outside looking in, my world looked perfect. Like if you wanna talk about like the Facebook life, right? Because everything you see on Facebook is real.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, exactly.

Rachel Adams:  And so, you know, I had the perfect car, the perfect life, the perfect job, but what people didn’t know if that is that, you know, a lot of times in—in the struggle it takes to—to have such massive success in three years, you give up some stuff. And some of the things that I wasn’t necessarily admitting to people was that in the three years, I had gotten a divorce that I never dealt with.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  I had gained 32 pounds.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And I was putting everybody else’s needs in front of my own, like family, friends, clients, you name it. And my corporate company, Keller Williams Realty–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Rachel Adams:  They’ve heard there is this young girl, she’s doing big things, like let’s bring her down to Texas, to headquarters, and interview her on how she’s leading this amazing lifestyle and she’s so successful. Because at the time, I’m literally travelling all around the US, like coaching people on how to build a business and work on their mindset. So I go to Texas to shoot this commercial and I’m sitting down with Nina Rowan Heller, and she is an international health and wellness coach. She has coached Matthew McConaughey.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  Founders of Microsoft, like leaders at Keller Williams, and I go there and I, you know, get hair and make-up done, and I’m wearing like the most serious squarest things you could buy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Rachel Adams:  Kinda like suck it all in, and I go to interview with her and—and I’m used to people asking me questions about real estate, so I’ve got like my normal canned answers. But we’re going through the questions and Nina stops and kinda gives me a funny look and she’s like, “And how does that make you feel?” And I’m like, “Feel?” I mean, you know, bumps and bruises but you do it, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And then we keep talking and she stops again, and she’s like, “And how did that make you feel?” I’m like, “Ah, you know, I mean it was tough, but that’s what happens.” And so we keep talking and she kinda like gets this funny smirk on her face and she’s—she looks at the camera crew and she is like, “Hey guys, can I get you to step outside for a second?” And they step outside and I’m like, “What is going on?” You know? And she takes my hand then she says something to me that I’ll never forget. She said, “Rachel, have you ever heard that your video isn’t matching your audio?” Like what you said or doing–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  It’s clear you’re not doing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  I’m like, “Well, I’ve heard it but not in relation to me.” And she’s like, “Sweetie, what’s really going on?” And I’ll tell you, Justin. It was like in this workout bench, in Texas, in this fancy outfit, I just like burst into tears.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Rachel Adams:  And I just said, “You know what, Nina? I got a divorce and I’ve never dealt with it, and I thought that if I shoved it down far enough, it’d go away.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right. Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  But unfortunately, it’s showing up in different ways. You know, it’s showing up in unhealthy, like you know, unhealthy food habits. It’s showing up in like, I’m like, “Nina, I literally have a headache, but I also didn’t sleep well last night. So I’m taking an Advil with a cup of coffee.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, man.

Rachel Adams:  You know, my–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Your poor gut.

Rachel Adams:  I know. I know. I know. And I’m just like, you know what, I was—I was just—I was happy on the outside because I choose to be happy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  But when I went home at night like I wasn’t happy, and we end up having—instead of doing this interview, we have this amazing 2-hour conversation about what my life could look like if I was truly leading it with authenticity–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Rachel Adams:  And intention. And instead of feeling like my divorce was something that I needed to be ashamed of–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Rachel Adams:  Know that it’s just part of my journey, and she actually sent me home. I never got to shoot the commercial. I cried for like two days, but I had this moment.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Rachel Adams:  And I had this moment two days later, sitting on my—floor of my living room, and I remember looking up to—to the sky or the roof, to God, whatever you want to call it, and I just said, “I know I’m meant for more.” Like, I can’t have gone through all that I’ve gone through, and have this amazing platform of people that I get to connect with to not be meant for more. So I took a step back and I realize that I had some people in my life, and potentially some things in my life that were actually serving me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And so I went on this 90-day journey of self-discovery, and pretty much everything changed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow!

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you kind of hit rock bottom with this interview, right?

Rachel Adams:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The lady, it seemed like was asking a lot of questions that were just drawing a lot of introspection, kind of looking at your health, looking at your life. Does that sound right?

Rachel Adams:  A hundred percent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And what was the first change you made? Okay, so now you’re at rock bottom. What’s the first–

Rachel Adams:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Change you made with your health or your mindset that kind of got this journey going for you?

Rachel Adams:  So I—I look at my life and I said, “Okay, I know that I am not leading my life at the level that I want to, so if I could pick two things to remove from a life, like two distractions if you will–“

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  What are those distractions? Like what—what they—what could they be? And if I remove them what could my life look like? And at the time—a little embarrassing to say—I was actually on three online dating sites–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And that’s a distracting thing to have. You know, the little pings always coming at you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  And then drinking. So I checked out dating–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  And all alcohol for 90 days, just to kind of see what would change for me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Wow. Okay.

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And what was the result of that?

Rachel Adams:  And you know, the thing—well, the thing about it like with taking out alcohol for me was a really big deal because it wasn’t like I was drinking every night of the week but I would have you know, happy hours with girlfriends or a cocktail with clients, and you can have the greatest intentions about food for the day, but once you have a couple cocktails in you, you’re like, “Yeah, let’s—with the French fries, sure we can have cheesecake.” You know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, of course.

Rachel Adams:  So when I checked out alcohol, like I found that I was coming home earlier–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  And instead of having a glass of wine at night, I had a cup of tea. And I was having all this time to sit at my house and I was like, “What do I want with my life?” So I started journaling and then I started reading about meditation, and then when you’re not like hungover every morning or any morning rather, you go, “Okay, well, maybe I’ve—I’m gonna go to bed a little earlier.” So if I wake up earlier, what if I start to exercise? So I started doing a morning routine–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  With just like getting out of bed and I made these little rules for myself, and one of my rules was—I feel like so many times people—the very first thing in their body it’s—they put in their body in the morning is coffee.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  When I was—I was one of those people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  So before I went to bed every night, I put a glass of water by my bed, and my rule was that before my 2 feet hit the floor, I would drink that glass of water because your body naturally dehydrates as you sleep. And so I drink water and then when I got out of bed, I just set this simple exercise routine up where I would drop to the ground then I would do like 22 push-ups, and the simple ab routine, and some squats. And just like something to get my blood moving, and then I would take my journal and I would write three things I was grateful for every morning, and in the beginning it’s like kinda surface-y stuff–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  Like I’m grateful for, you know, the air. And then you start to get really deep, and you’re like, “I’m grateful for my struggles.” I’m—I mean I ended up being grateful for my divorce like who knew? You know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right. Right.

Rachel Adams:  But–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then what was the best thing for you emotionally? Because as a functional medicine doctor, we—

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You know, we deal with a lot of the metabolic things, right? Diet–

Rachel Adams:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Lifestyle.

Rachel Adams:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You know, we do fancy lab tests and create protocols. But a lot of what creates dysfunction or dis-ease, right? In someone’s body is a lot of the emotional things that are on process.

Rachel Adams:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And you mentioned the—the divorce and those kind of things. How did you process that? What were the steps that you went through afterwards to help eradicate that?

Rachel Adams:  Well, you know, I didn’t even necessarily know that they were like—they—they didn’t turn into steps for me. I was just—what starts to happen is when you decide you’re gonna commit to, you know, eating clean or—or you’re gonna do an exercise routine, like when you start to feel good—like what happens is you’ll make one good decision, like “Okay, I’m gonna take out drinking for 90 days.” And after you do one good decision then you make another good decision, and you’re like, “Well, maybe I should start to look at what I’m feeling my body with,” because you know, I—I didn’t fit like I—when I was going through the divorce, I was like, “I’m really sad. I should eat comfort food.” I was like, “I’m happy. It’s a great day! I’m goota eat a celebratory meal.” And what I realized for the—like the healing part with divorce is I found some really good books. I found a book called From Me To We—I’m sorry—From We To Me. And I thought that was a really good book. I actually—I started going to a group called Divorce Care and it was through my church. And it was a Divorce Recovery Group and I mean, I was raised Jewish and I was like, “I can’t walk into a Christian church.” I bet they’ll have this worse. But the cool thing was that it was—they were just really nice and accepting, and you know, I realized like I’m not the first person to get divorced, and it was so crazy because I did this 90-day journey, and I’m you know, focusing on like my purpose, like what I really want to do in this world and planning my day better, like respecting my boundaries, and I’m—I’m just, I’m making all of these good decisions, and I remember this like moment where it was like towards the end of the 90 days and I was actually driving up to go visit my parents and they live up in the country, and it’s like a 2½-hour drive and I stopped at a fruit stand. Like I pulled over to stop at a fruit stand to bring fresh fruit home. I remember picking up a peach and—and smelling this peach, and I, for some reason, I just felt so light like I felt so happy. And it was like what the heck is going on, like why do I feel so good? And I realized in that moment that I had forgiven myself for the divorce. And it was like the most powerful thing because I wasn’t—I wa—I didn’t know how much guilt I had around it, but I did. You know? And it wasn’t—it wasn’t that I didn’t try. I tried everything I could have, it was just I saw it as—as failure instead of it just being part of my journey.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. So if someone’s dealing with emotional stress in your relationship, if you can kinda boil down the biggest, maybe 1 to 3 things, that someone can do to help either, you know, save it and/or recover from it, you know. What would those things the?

Rachel Adams:  You know, one thing I would encourage people to do is to find out really what a good—what a healthy relationship means to them?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  So not—not in relation to anyone else, but take—take a piece of paper, or you do—take a computer and—and write out all the words that matter to you in a relationship.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  Like communication, intimacy, a sense of community, like whatever matters to you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And next to each word, write a paragraph about what that word means you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And I think that it will help you really—it—it’s creating clarity around what you want for yourself but it’s also setting a standard for what you will and you won’t allow in your life. And you know, if you’re in a relationship right now and it—it’s not the one that necessarily fulfils you, then look at this list you’re making and see if this person, if it’s conversations you can have with this person, and say, “Listen, I really have been taking some time to—to really reflect and—and this is what matters.” And see if this person aligns with you because I will tell you that the right people are going to come into your life and the right people are also going to leave your life.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  In something else I would say is, you know, if you’re—if you’re not in a relationship yet, and you wanna get in a relationship, a lot of times people will start a new hobby or they’re like, “I’m gonna lose weight, so I’ll meet the right person.” And they do all these things because they think that that’s gonna be the reason a guy—or you know, someone’s gonna be attracted to them. But the reality is is that when you’re actually, you know, living in your powerful space, when you’re being who you are supposed to be, the person is going to appear. Like I was in—I basically took a three-year break. I mean I dated a lot but from being divorced ‘til being in my next serious relationship, it was three years and the funny thing is it was three months to the day after I met Ryan–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And he is—he literally is my list. He is everything I’ve ever wanted in a per—like he’s just my best friend and then it’s a bonus that were silly in love and like 38 days ago, not that I’m counting, we got engaged.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, wow! Congratulations!

Rachel Adams:  And—yeah, thank you. But it’s like it is so cool to get to go through such an amazing transformative process and then meet the person that you’re like, “Oh, my gosh, like it really could be this good?” Like how fun can life be now?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, that’s great.

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So that’s awesome. So you got your relationship dialed in. You related some soul-searching, figuring out what you wanted so you can kinda–

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Create that that magnetic energy to attract it in.

Rachel Adams:  Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great. So then what are the next things because we have lots of people listening to this podcast that are—they’re either healthy and they’re—they’re really rocking it in all areas in their life and they are trying to get in the edge, or you have people that are kind of at a baseline of not so happy with their health and they’re trying to make those changes kind of moving forward. So we talked about the morning routine. I’m a big fan of you know, good clean filtered water.

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Throw some extra sea salts in there. Get some minerals going in your body.

Rachel Adams:  Love it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Do a little bit of movement. I think that’s great. What’s that next change for you on the diet side? What was that big one feel?

Rachel Adams:  Oh, my gosh. So I am that person who have—I really honestly, I went diet to diet to diet and diet in a bad way because there is such a negative rep on the word diet but in reality diet is just what you eat.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  It’s not what you’re on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Rachel Adams:  And I mean, I’m not kidding you. I was high carb, low carb, no carb, yo carb, like I—I did any diet that I could think of because I wanted the quick fix. I wanted to find what works for me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Rachel Adams:  And what happened was when I took out drinking, I also set some other rules out for myself, and I decided that I was gonna take out white flour–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Rachel Adams: White sugar and anything processed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  No, just simple stuff. Right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Simple stuff, right, just kind of foundational stuff, right?

Rachel Adams:  Nothing too crazy, right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  And so what happens when you take out these, I call them distractions and noise—sugar to me is a noise and—and alcohol is a noise. It’s something—it almost numbs your body so you can’t—your taste buds aren’t even alive. They’re like kind of numb. They don’t know what’s going on and so what happened is I took this out and all of a sudden, food started tasting different to me. And so when I would need something, instead of—instead of just eating because I ate, because it was just what I did. I started to eat something and go, “Okay, how does my body feel when I eat this?”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Rachel Adams:  How does my body feel? Do I get energy? Do I feel a little tired? Do I have a—you know, a slump a couple hours later? And what I realized is that my body feels good when I eat a lot of vegetables, when I eat lean proteins, and the other thing that I—that I told myself is like no more restricting because I would go on a diet, the bad kind of diet, and I would say, “Okay,  I can’t eat this. I can eat this. I can eat this.” So I don’t eat and I restrict myself for a long time, and then I get towards the end and I’m like, “I did so great, now I’m gonna eat seven donuts.” Like it is such a weird cycle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  And so what happened is I go, “Okay, how does my body feel?” And you know, I—I really—I honestly, I took a piece of paper and I drew a circle, and the circle to me it could represent a plate for some, for me it represented my daily intake of what I was eating, and down the middle of the plate in a straight line, so slitting the plate or the circle in half, I put a line. And on the left side for me that—half of what I eat in a full day is vegetables, literally vegetables.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And then I took the other half and I—I cut that in half. So I now have, and so with those two halves on the right side, one of them I put protein.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And for me that’s beans, that’s, you know, chicken, fish, tofu, whatever. That’s my lean protein. And then the all—the other one, I—I literally put it in the tiny little slivers, and I had dark chocolate. I had red wine. I—I put cheese on there like all—but it was—it was all the other things that I love in life that I realized like I don’t need huge portions of these. And I implemented another rule that was really big for me. And it’s kind of an opposite of what I think a lot of people think when they eat, but I do breakfast like a queen, lunch like a princess, and then dinner like a pauper.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams: So I’m eating bigger meals earlier in the day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  Still all good fuel. And it—and then when I go to bed at night, it gives my body time to kind of rest and recuperate, and it’s not working on this huge meal. Could I even eat a really big meal at night? Then it would affect my sleep, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you feel better having a bigger meal at breakfast and kind of your—your number two at—at lunch from a mealtime perspective.

Rachel Adams:  I do.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How long would you go between meals?

Rachel Adams:  I do and I eat two snacks, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Rachel Adams:  Like two or three hours. I do little snacks.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  I’ll do like a Trader Joe, like I’m big because I—I own four companies so I’m always jamming, like I’m on the road a lot or–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  I’m at meetings and I have to prep in order to be successful because if I don’t—I prep meals on Sunday and Wednesday.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ahh, huh!

Rachel Adams:  And, yeah, so like I always have raw vegetables with me, like I have almonds, like different things. I do—a Trader Joe makes a turkey jerky with low sugar.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  And so I do—I have to have fuel with me in order to keep me going and so I just—I just made little rules that every two or three hours I would eat, and I wouldn’t eat if I wasn’t hungry but your body will speak to you. If you take out the distractions, your body is speaking to you. And it’s so just up to you to choose to listen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. So looking at kind of the meal timing thing, it sounds like you really were doing a good job stabilizing your blood sugar, eating really good, you know, proteins, healthy fats, and you were trying to consume more of your carbohydrates from kind of like non-starchy veggies. Does that sound about right?

Rachel Adams: Yes, definitely. And—but the cool thing is I will tell you, I was like terrified. My whole life was like bread or potatoes. Like I can’t eat them, bad news, can’t do it. But reality is, you can. Just choose a really good whole-grain that doesn’t have a bunch of processed junk in it. And if you’re gonna have a potato, eat a sweet potato, you know? And—and telling myself that I can have stuff and taking out the you can’t have that, it was the most freeing feeling and go figure. I’m not kidding you. I—from the start of my journey to the end, I lost—I started at 162 and when I ended the journey, I was like at 130. And I have a before and after picture on social media, but like my morning routine and my little abs, and these little things that was doing these little small implemental changes, they added up. And I ended the journey feeling so strong and so healthy, and it was—and everybody is like, “What are you doing? Oh, my God. What’s your new diet?” And I’m like, “Oh, my God! We need to talk.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s funny. That’s great. That’s a nice little tip there. So give me a quick rundown. I’ll put you on the spot here. What’s–

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A day in the life like? Well, let’s go. Today what did you have for breakfast?

Rachel Adams:  So this morning I woke up, before again, before my 2 feet hit the floor I have a glass of water, and then dropped to the ground, did my quick little exercise, I—my journal is by my bed. So I write three things that I’m grateful for. I just came off this two-day conference where I spoke a bunch about actually health and my journey, so I was just grateful for the connections I made there. So this morning for breakfast, I had a cup of egg whites.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams: I had half a banana with about a teaspoon of peanut butter and then I had, well, let’s see. I had quite—so I sautéed vegetables.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  So this was sautéed from last night.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  So I’ll do half the plate sautéed vegetables and all different kinds. Like I—I don’t really—I’m—I really like vegetables so I don’t limit a ton except for maybe onions in the morning to spare everybody health. And then I’ll do a little bit—I added a little bit of smoked salmon and then I do have a cup of coffee.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, so you got some good omega 3’s, some good proteins, some good fats.

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome. What’s typical lunch look like?

Rachel Adams:  Lunch for me is usually either a salad with some kind of a lean protein or like sautéed veggies or some kind of a lean protein. Sometimes I throw in a little quinoa on there. Sometimes I’ll have a little sweet potato and sometimes I don’t.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you’re really sure to keep the inflammation down.

Rachel Adams:  Absolutely, yes. And I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And, uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  I believe in that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  Like, see I do a ton of stuff with like—I know you talk about it on your show—but like spices. Like natural–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  Curries.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  And you know, like I get a lot of my flavor now from spices instead of from like sodium and different salts and stuff like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  Like I think it’s different to put salt in your water versus salt all your food.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and I think also sea salt is totally different than your typical table salt–

Rachel Adams:  The only time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s just Sodium Chloride.

Rachel Adams:  I keep one in my purse.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, that’s great. Yeah, if you can–

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: When I was in California at the Whole Foods, they had the—the real salt packs.

Rachel Adams:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Those were awesome because you get like 60-70 minerals versus just the refined sodium chloride.

Rachel Adams: That’s literally what’s in my purse right now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  I take them from Whole Foods.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, it’s a really good electrolyte support. Awesome! So what other little tips and tricks that you did on—on the diet and lifestyle side that you would say are like in that top 5 that listeners that are making that transition now, what can they do outside of what you already mentioned?

Rachel Adams:  You know, I—so I kind of implement the 85-15, or–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  All I know everybody have their different process–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 80-20, 90-10, yeah, I get it.

Rachel Adams:  Yeah, so for me it’s 85-15. So 85 for the—the 85% of the time I eat clean, and then 15% of the time I’ll eat whatever I want. But it—but what—what you find is like so say you love desert. You have a super sweet tooth. You know, like I—I love getting desert at dinner.

Dr. teen Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  So perfect. Get desert but share it with a friend and have a couple bites because the first bite tastes amazing. You’re like, “Oh, my gosh! This is so good.” And the second bites tastes pretty freaking good. But then the third or the fourth bite, it doesn’t even—it stops tasting as good, and then you’re kinda eating to eat empty calories.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, totally.

Rachel Adams:  So I—I would encourage you to just really try—like listen to your body, really listen. And then my fiancé, he eats—like he is 6’3” and I’m 5 feet tall. And he can literally eat whatever he wants, but the coolest thing about talking to him about food and his relationship with food–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  Because he has no emotional relationship with food at all, is he eats really slowly and he chews all his food. He like—I swear he chews like 50 bites, every time, it’s 50 times. But the cool thing is like, so I wanted to pace myself with him because I was like, “Gosh, I wonder, that’s so crazy. He eats so slow.” But I love it because it—it gives you—like you can respect your food. You can respect your meal time, and so many people rush through their food, scarf it as fast as they can to keep moving throughout the day. And what you realize and for me because I was such a driver in my business world, I ate like a driver. I slept like a driver. I mean, and what I mean by that is I was like, “Go, go, go. Sleep—like it’s little sleep. Wake up. Get moving. Go! Quick breakfast.” And there is such a beautiful power in slowing down. So my rule when I eat is they just, it’s simple but I set my fork down in between bites, instead of having my fork always in my hand, I set my fork down in between bites. And that slows me down and really, really was helpful. And then I’d say the last piece to nutrition that’s really helpful for me is if you’re starting at clean eating and you don’t really know what it is, think about when you go to the grocery store, just hanging out on the outside perimeter, like where the vegetables are and the fresh, you know, fresh fruits and the—the lean proteins, because when you get into the center aisle, that’s where all your processed saturated fat, crackers, like that’s where all this stuff is that’s gonna be doing harm to your body and you know, like I said when you start making one good decision, your body is gonna crave it. Like you’re gonna be like, “Are you serious?” Like sometimes I wake up in the morning and I’m craving vegetables. Craving it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Rachel Adams: And it’s a beautiful thing like I just went on this all-inclusive vacation, and I was joking around yesterday, but 85-15 rule was pretty much reversed. Like at 85% of the time I ate whatever I wanted and 15% of the time I was like, “I should probably have a salad.” But the cool thing is when you treat your body really, really well, when you come home you don’t have to go on this crazy diet to restrict to get you back to where you were, you just go back on how you like to eat, what feels good for your body, and all of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, that was just some extra like saltwater, water weight.” And then you’re near back to where you were and it’s—it’s really empowering.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, absolutely. I think that makes a ton of sense. I mean, these are just real practical things that everyone could be doing. I think the timing of food is really important also–

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That adage of like, you know, one chew per tooth, right? You have about 32 teeth on average, right? So that’s about 30 chews or so. That gets your food up to that liquid kind of consistency. There’s that old Buddhist proverb saying, “Drink your food and eat your water,” or chewing your food up to a consistency so it’s almost liquid so when you swallow it, it’s a lot of surface area for your enzymes and your hydrochloric acid to work and break it down. And then also when you drink your water, letting it imprint on your saliva so your body can—can process it better. So I think those are some really good things, and also just giving your appetite that appestat, that center of your brain that controls your appetite, time to let the nutrients kinda get into the body so it can sense it and allow you to feel full faster, where if you just scarf that food down its really east to overeat when your appestatic mechanisms that control satiety aren’t working optimally.

Rachel Adams:  Yeah, absolutely. Do you—what is your feeling on drinking like a glass of water before you eat? I’ve heard a lot of people talk about that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I think with hydration with water, hydrating about 10 minutes before is ideal. I mean if you’re gonna drink like an ounce or two, just to help food kind of process down or maybe you’re sipping a little bit of wine or something with your meal, fine. But hydration ideally about 10 minutes or so before meal because their stomach’s really acidic. It needs to be acidic. It’s about a pH of about 2. So hydrochloric acid and can activate a lot of the protein-digesting enzymes and water’s got a pH of 7. So if you’re raising up that pH, that’s gonna lessen your hydrochloric acid levels and lessen your enzymes and create more bloating and burping and belching. So I find 10 minutes or so before meal and/or about an hour or two after a meal is ideal for hydration.

Rachel Adams:  Awesome! Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, and I find a lot of people, too—this is a big thing—is the mechanism for like craving food and craving water can be easily mistaken in some individuals. So–

Rachel Adams:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Like before you eat, having like a big glass or two of water, you’d be surprised what happens to your appetite when that meal comes. It’s like you eat less even though you’re not trying to because you’re just giving your brain a chance to catch up with what it really needs.

Rachel Adams:  Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So okay we got the alcohol stuff down. We got meal timing. You’re—you’re really doing I think a lot of mindfulness with the chewing and giving your body time to—to process that food. I think that makes a ton of sense. What else? What else is on that big 5 list that you use to help improve your health?

Rachel Adams:  Well, you know, one, a big thing for me was sleep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, huge.

Rachel Adams:  I—I fought sleep almost my whole life because I always was—even when I was in college, I was like 20 units and 2 jobs. Like I’m just—it’s just how I operate. And I, from 2007 to 2013, I literally took Ambien, the sleep—over-the-counter sleeping pill–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, wow.

Rachel Adams:  Four nights a week. Yeah, 4 nights, and it only was not 7, because I don’t wanna feel like I was addicted.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  And when I decided to really take a look at how I—how I slept, I realized that I was doing a disservice to myself and like I said, when I—I found myself home earlier, I was like I wonder if I, you know, I fought sleep always, so I’m—I hadn’t taken a sleeping pill in quite a long time and I’m drinking tea and I almost started to create this like—so you know we talked about a powerful morning routine–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Adams:  So I decided to create a powerful nighttime routine and it’s been such a huge shift for me, so what happened for me is like when I walk into my bedroom, I look at it and I say, “Okay, I—like so think about going into a spa, that when you go into a spa like you just feel good.” You feel relaxed, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  You feel like you want to unwind. So I—I looked at my bedroom and I said, “Why—why doesn’t my bedroom represent that?” Like if your bedroom is your—so I literally consider my bedroom now my sacred space.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  And I changed the paint colors to—to be more like calming colors because I—I had liked red. And that’s not so the most calming color.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Rachel Adams:  So I do a lot of like cream—now is like creams and ivories, and I have a little bit of gold tones, some blue–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And I don’t have full lights on. So I change my light bulbs in my room, too, so they are dimmer. I had a system that every night before bed I had this folder, and I would watch—it is on my comp—on my phone and I would look at e-news and Facebook and Instagram and Pinterest, and I’m like, “What? He’s dating her?” And you know, my mind is racing. So I implemented a rule and it’s a no tech hour. So before bed, any email, anything I wanna look at in the Internet, any text messaging, anything I wanna do before bed is done one hour before bed. So I unwind from technology a full hour before bed. I do not plug my phone in by my bed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  A lot of people have their phone plugged in by the nightstand. It’s too easy for me to grab it. So I actually plug my phone in by—in my bathroom. And that does one of two things. One it makes it easy so I can’t go grab it to go chat on it, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  And the other thing it does is when my alarm goes off to wake me up, I actually have to get my butt out of bed to go turn it off, because I was like a four-time snoozer. I was like, I just keep it in you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Rachel Adams:  And I—I aim for eight hours. I really do. I’m intentional about my—my sleep but the last thing to sleep for me was that sometimes life shows up and sometimes I don’t get eight hours. And I realized there was a mindset shift in here and I can, you know, it—I could either say, “Okay, I’ve got five hours. I’m going to be so freaking tired tomorrow. Tomorrow is gonna suck. I’m gonna need a cup of coffee at 4 PM and I’m gonna drag all day.” Or I can say, “Okay, I’ve got five hours. I’m going to shut down now and when I wake up, I’m gonna feel refreshed and amazing. I’m gonna have the most beautiful restful night’s sleep.” And then I wake up and I do my morning routine, and like mental shift for me was sleep. It was super, super huge. I think the last piece for sleep that really has been helpful is my mind races. Like I, a lot of times, couldn’t fall asleep because I’m thinking about a client I didn’t write back or a blog I need to write or whatever. So I keep a–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Rachel Adams:  Journal by my bed, the same gratitude journal and I call it a mind dump. So something’s happening in my head and I’m not getting sleep, I literally look to my journal and just get it out of my head and once it’s out of my head and on paper, I usually can get back into the place of getting—getting into sleep mode.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, I totally agree. I think one of the biggest things—my biggest issue is just getting off technology earlier. The biggest thing I do is—I’m trying to do and working on it is one, throwing your phone or iPad into airplane mode, and then also clicking the night time button.

Rachel Adams:  Oh, good for you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You know? Throw it in airplane mode.

Rachel Adams:  That is dangerous.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know it’s hard. Throw it into airplane mode and then also hit the little moon button, half moon button that kills all your notifications, so then you don’t you don’t have like calendar things popping up or you know, your to-do list going off saying, “You gotta do this, you gotta do this.” And then it’s just dead, then your phone’s off. There’s no EMF. I throw my phone all the way across the room, kinda like you mentioned, at least 6 feet–

Rachel Adams:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: But I keep it you know, 25 feet away.

Rachel Adams: You check it?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I just have an end table that’s literally at the polar opposite corner of my bedroom, and then number one when the alarm goes off, it forces me to actually get up.

Rachel Adams:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then number two, it keeps that EMF away. And then also with the Apples, they have the application, their Night Shift, and I make sure Night Shift is on so it kills all of the blue light, so which—that’s the light that really disrupts melatonin. So kill, putting the Night Shift application on or if you’re Android, there are other applications out there that will kill the blue light which shuts down melatonin.

Rachel Adams:  Yeah, I have that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  You know how you said the moon? It—do you have to hit that? Do you hit that again in the morning to take it off?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, you gotta take it off–

Rachel Adams:  Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Or like–

Rachel Adams:  Got it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Your calendar notifications or people call you, it just will go. You won’t even hear it. So it’s great at night because it just, you know, sometimes at night I’d have like calendar stuff popping up. I’m like, “What the heck?” So I just—I use that now and then it’s like, it’s perfect. There’s no more issues, but it takes discipline. It really does.

Rachel Adams:  Yeah, absolutely. It does.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, awesome here. We’ve had a really great talk and I wanted just highlight a little bit more where people can get more Intel and more info on you over at lost2found90.com, like a 90 days to kinda get your health and your life back on track. So I think that’s gonna be some great Intel for people that wanna get more information about how they can get their life back. Also any way else people can get a hold of you or find out more about you, Rachel?

Rachel Adams:  Absolutely, yeah. I’m really active on Facebook so if you do the /racheladamsrealtor, you can find out about me and then my main website that kinda houses everything I do is www.RachelAdamsInspire.com and you can talk to me about speaking. You can see my book and program, real estate coaching, and all fun stuff I’m up to.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: RachelAdamsInspire. Awesome! And the last question that I ask everyone–

Rachel Adams:  Please.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Let’s say you are stuck on a desert island and you only can bring one thing, one supplement with you, what do you bring?

Rachel Adams:  Oh, that’s so good. One supplement. Hmm. So it’s health related? One thing?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, health-related, but you know, if you want to go outside of health related, I’ll—I’ll let you do that, too, as long as we can—as long as you really have a good answer why.

Rachel Adams:  I just—I think I’d bring like a flint to make a fire so that I can cook food and boil water and you know what I mean?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, from a practical standpoint. That—that makes a lot of sense.

Rachel Adams:  Yeah, that would be my go-to, and this horrible—I’m not a fan of it, but my fiancé really likes watching Naked and Afraid–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  So I keep seeing people like going on the shows and doing all these horrible things, but that—that would be my take away.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. And is there one supplement that you’re—you’re doing now or you’ve done in the past that you really like or you’ve gotten some success with?

Rachel Adams:  Well, I’d love it—I’d love to actually hear your feedback on this. So I am training for my first full marathon right now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  And I—I did a half marathon and we were told by some runners to—look, I’m not a big believer—I think that the—the supplement industry from like a GNC standpoint–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Rachel Adams:  Is poison.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah, 95%.

Rachel Adams:  So I steer super clear from those.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  I really—I only do natural supplements in my body.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Rachel Adams:  But I will tell you turmeric, they told us use turmeric after running to like help restore muscles are something.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Inflammation, yeah.

Rachel Adams:  It freaking made such a difference, I think, but I’m wondering if I—it’s in my head because we honestly like we had a fairly okay healing process for tearing down our muscles as much as we did and I’d love to hear your feedback on that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, turmeric I think, yeah, that’s great.

Rachel Adams:  That’s—that’s one of my favorite.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think turmeric’s great for inflammation and you know, marathon running can be very inflammatory in the body. Sell for some people if you’re not already healthy it can be—it can be a stressor but for my marathoners, the biggest thing I like is branched-chain amino acids because the body will allow those amino acids to pinch-hit instead of breaking down your muscle and getting more catabolic, i.e. breaking down faster. And then also mitochondrial nutrients like extra CoQ10, carnitine, creatine, ribose, you know those type of nutrients that pinch-hit because the parts of your—little cells of your body, these powerhouse cells, the mitochondria, really use them to generate energy and that’s a big part of you know, that kind of energy systems you’re using when you’re running as well. To those would be my two—branched-chain aminos and mitochondrial nutrients.

Rachel Adams:  Awesome!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, great. Any other parting words you want to leave with the listeners here, Rachel?

Rachel Adams:  No, I think just, you know, the—the one thing I would talk—that I think about a lot is people make such big goals for their lives, and they have these beautiful ambitions, but they forget that they only have one body. They only have one vessel that’s gonna get them there. So I would really encourage you to just remember that if you’re not taking care of you and you’re not making yourself a priority, you’re never going to achieve these big goals that you wanna achieve because you’re not gonna feel good. And in reality it is all about how you feel. So just remember that, you know, you can’t be the best wife, you can’t be mom, you can be husband, dad, all of that if you’re not taking care of number one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got it. Yeah, I think even in the—the Bible, right? It says you gotta love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Rachel Adams:  A hundred percent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s pre—that’s pre-assuming that you already love yourself, so I think that’s really important. Spiritual text from all religions echoes that as well so I think that’s a really, really great point to—to leave on.

Rachel Adams:  Awesome!

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, thanks so much, Rachel. Appreciate your time.

Rachel Adams:  Thank you. I appreciate you have me on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thank you. Bye!

Rachel Adams:  Bye!

Torea Rodriguez – Toxins, infections and autoimmune disease – Podcast #112

Dr. Justin Marchegiani interviews autoimmune specialist, Torea Rodriguez, in this episode where they talk about autoimmune diseases and how these can be exacerbated by toxins and infections in the body. Find out how one thing leads to another and what types of lab tests are vital in helping to get to the root cause of issues. 

Torea Rodriguez Discover what supplements can aid in fighting autoimmune conditions. Learn how important it is to deal with stress or avoid it completely to be healthy along with making diet and lifestyle changes, as well as find out about healing pathways that worked for some people which may just work for you, too.

In this episode, topics include:

13:55   Infections

16:35   Stress

24:42   Biofilms

30:58   Supplements and Herbs

36:26   Toxins

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, there, it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Welcome back to Beyond Wellness Radio. Today we have a functional medicine practitioner. Her name is Torea Rodriguez and she’s right out of Santa Cruz. Right, Torea?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, Santa Cruz is it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Awesome! And you’re an autoimmune specialist, correct?

Torea Rodriguez:  I am. I do functional—err—functional medicine specializing in autoimmune. That’s how I got started. I got sick with autoimmune Hashimoto’s and it’s what I’m most comfortable with and it’s what I understand the most. So that’s what I focus on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  What an epidemic autoimmune conditions are today, huh?

Torea Rodriguez:  Absolutely. I was reading in the Autoimmune Fix, Tom O’Bryan’s new book.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And he was explaining that, you know, most autoimmune diseases, what we know now is that it’s more of an autoimmune spectrum–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  As opposed to a specific disease, and so while there’s—I don’t know—there’s over 135 classified autoimmune diseases, it’s probably even more now and that all of those are just what’s known to us right now. Like there could be so many other ones and so it’s really the spectrum effect that happens, and yeah, it’s really prevalent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, it’s really interesting because with autoimmune conditions. If you really look at what the conventional medical establishment has to offer, I mean, it’s not too much. I mean, they have your immunosuppressive medications, corticosteroids like prednisone. I mean, there’s not really even a diet shift or diet modality when it comes to autoimmune conditions, even though we know the research and the literature’s so, you know, rich with that type of information and also the idea of leaky gut really isn’t even talked about. What’s your take on the conventional medicine approach medicine offers—mainstream medicine for autoimmunity?

Torea Rodriguez:  I think that they are in a very unfortunate situation to be honest. They’re behind in terms of research. There’s not one doctor that I know, you tell me if I’m wrong–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  But there’s not one doctor that I know that has the time in between their 15-minute consults to also go and read the PubMed and the medical literature to stay up on what’s going on, so I think they’re in a very unfortunate situation. And then the other part about the traditional medical establishment is that they’re focused on special areas. So we’ve got the cardiologist for the heart health and we’ve got the endocrinologist for, you know, the endocrine system and the different hormone systems and all of those different things–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  And they’re looking at it from a very specific point of view from that organ if you will, when really autoimmunity needs to be that 30,000-ft view, big picture view because it’s the entire immune system. It’s the entire body that is having a problem. So yeah, I think that it’s just they’re in an unfortunate situation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%. I mean, I see that every day. It’ s like unless you have a clinical framework in which you operate in, I mean, you could skim through articles but it may not mean much to you because where do you plug that clinical piece of information into how you treat patients because typically it’s 3- to 5-minute consult, right? With the pat–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  With the patient. You have a prescription pad. For the most part you’re looking for a diagnostic code that justifies, you know, you to make money off the patient because they are—they are business and then typically that involves a prescription, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Or some type of procedure for the most part and that’s it. I mean, that’s—it’s really about managing that condition and the whole idea about addressing it or fixing a root causal issue really isn’t even there. I mean, it’s—it’s amazing that people can go to physicians where their goal really is just how can we prevent the symptoms from getting worse down the road versus let’s fix this.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It—totally different mindset.

Torea Rodriguez: Yeah. Complete different mindset and that was my exact experience when I was diagnosed with Hashimoto’s back in 2009 and I started working with an endocrinologist because that’s where people go who have thyroid issues. They go to an endocrinologist and start working with them and you know, he prescribed me medication after medication and it’s not working and I can’t get my labs stable and it’s still not working, so we’d switch it or we’d double the dose or, you know, we kinda got to a point where I challenged him because at that the time I needed to pass an aviation medical and I challenged him and I’m like, “Look, I need to pass this exam in a month. We’ve got a month. What do you got for me? Like we gotta do this, otherwise I have to stop flying for a living.” And he just kind of put his hands up and he was kinda like, “Well, you know, the next thing I know to do is to radiate the thyroid and cut out the rest of the tissue.” And I was just like, “Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Brakes on full.” Like that’s not the path that I wanna go down.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez: And that was the real foray for me to start looking into functional medicine and to start looking at alternative solutions because I knew that it—there was something else going on. It wasn’t just the thyroid. I mean, there’s countless people out there with thyroid issues and they feel fine. So what is going on? And I wanted different answers.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s great. This is a great segway into kind of let the listeners know a little bit more about you. And most people, they kinda walk that, most practitioners are physicians—they walk the journey of the wounded healer. Right? They have some type of health–

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ailment themselves, they bump their head against a wall a few times—that wall being conventional medicine, and then was able to find a path that actually worked that—that really was focused on root causal health information.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So why don’t you share your story—I know you mentioned you were a pilot. I think you also have a biochemistry background, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah. Yeah, my undergrad degree is in Biochemistry–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, great.

Torea Rodriguez:  And you know—and I worked in the technology industry so I’ve kinda bounced around and cruised a little, but at the time I was a professional pilot, I wasn’t feeling good. I mean, I knew something was wrong and when it came time to really decide, “Am I gonna go under the knife to try and fix this? Or am I gonna try and find alternative solutions?” I really knew in my heart of hearts that I needed to find an alternative solution.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  By under the knife, you mean getting your thyroid removed, right?

Torea Rodriguez: Yeah. I mean–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  He wanted to give me a radiated thy–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Iodine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And then cut out the rest of the tissue and I did not wanna have surgery to be honest.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So–

Torea Rodriguez: I just did not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. So it sounds like you were diagnosed with Graves’? Is that what happened?

Torea Rodriguez:  No.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Or was it something else?

Torea Rodriguez:  Hashimoto’s.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So this was Hashi—yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  This was Hashimoto’s.  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Torea Rodriguez: And most, for our listeners who don’t know, usually you take out the thyroid when it’s Graves’ which is the opposite, the hyperthyroid situation, and he just didn’t—he didn’t know where else to turn. These were the tools that he had and that’s why–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  I had so much compassion for them. It’s that they—they have the tools that are in their toolbox and they’re not necessarily applicable to the types of diseases that we are seeing right now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It totally makes sense and that makes sense, too, because Hashimoto’s in the early stages can seem like Graves’ because the antibodies are different. They’re not the same kind of antibodies once thyroid stimulating immunoglobulin and TA—TSH receptor antibodies, the one for Hashi’s is TPO and thyroglobulin. So different effect–

Torea Rodriguez:  Correct.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But in the early—in the early inflammation response, thyroid hormone spills out and can create that hyper kinda symptoms, so that makes sense.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I started searching for anybody that knew anything about thyroid and natural healing and I had stumbled across Chris Kresser’s writings–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm, yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And this was back early in the day when he was just writing about stuff and he said something that really clicked with me–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Which was that we’re dealing with autoimmunity and we’re dealing with a disease of the immune system.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Not a disease of the thyroid, not a disease of–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  The myelin sheath of your nerves. It’s a disease of the immune system and that we need to really focus on the immune system itself, and that just lit a lightbulb. It was an epiphany moment. It’s like, “Of course! That makes total sense.” So let’s go down that path. So I pretty much didn’t know where he was, didn’t care, was gonna get on any plane to go see him, begged myself into his clinic and he took me on as a client, and that’s when I really started to understand the multiple layers that had come into play to cause me to get sick and the work that I needed to do to start healing. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool. So with your working with Chris, I mean, he’s kind of a—a Paleo template guy. I’m a big fan of a Paleo template, right? Where we kinda can adjust the macronutrients and—and dial things in according to what works best for you, the patient. Just curious, if you could lay out just you and your experience as the patient, what worked best for you. What are those top 3 things that really were game changers in your case?

Torea Rodriguez:  I think the very first game changer was taking a different perspective on my diet. I had always felt that I was healthy and that I was eating very healthfully and to stay healthy on the road I was keeping to a vegetarian diet and with a lot of healthy whole grains, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Right? And so taking a different perspective and really taking a look at what it was that I was eating and what more importantly what I was missing in the diet. There were a lot of nutrients in my diet that were missing from that and so switching to a whole food Paleo type template was exactly what my body needed at the time and I would say that that in itself gave me a huge boost and huge stair step of healing right away.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So you were eating a lot of grains back then or were you eating any meat as well?

Torea Rodriguez:  I was not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  I was trying to stay healthy on the road.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  So I was staying vegetarian because of course, we were eating out all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Torea Rodriguez:  So yeah, so I was just like, “Oh, I’ll just stay vegetarian. That’ll keep me healthy.” And then you know, in hindsight, looking back the other time I experimented with being vegetarian was in college and I got very, very sick in college. And I know now–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  That for me and my body type, I—I need to include animal proteins in there. That’s the only way I feel really great. So yeah, so I would say food was the other thing and then rest. Not really rest—how should I say this? I had to take a very serious look at my Type A hyper-overachiever lifestyle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, right.

Torea Rodriguez:  And that was really, really hard to do as a pilot. You are used to achieving every 6 months and passing check rides and switching to the next airplane and all of those things, and that was something that was really driving my nervous system into sympathetic fight or flight all the time.  And I had pretty much activated it all the time and I really had to take a serious look at that. So that was one of the other things that was really, really key in healing but expressly difficult to adjust to.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So you sound like you had some adrenal dysfunction there, too?

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah. They were–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Pretty much—the way Chris put it—and I don’t know if he was trying to scare me or not, but he basically said that you are one step away from Addison’s disease. You need to do something different.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And were those initial tests that you ran for adrenals, were those on—on the BioHealth 201 adrenal panel?

Torea Rodriguez:  Correct.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, cool.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Do you remember what your total–

Torea Rodriguez:  That was my first panel.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cortisol was?

Torea Rodriguez:  I think it was like 12.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow, that’s so low!

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about your DHEA?

Torea Rodriguez:  I don’t even remember. I’d have to go take a look. But yeah, I mean, it was pretty much tapped out. I mean, I was—I was tapped out. This was—I was sleeping 14 hours a night and feeling like I was–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  Hit by a Mack truck the next morning. Like I was not feeling rested ever.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And so recapping, you were eating a vegetarian diet. So I typically hear that. I think low protein, I think ex—probably excessive carbohydrate, probably lots of anti-nutrients.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, it was all carbohydrate. Because in addition to flying–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Torea Rodriguez:  The other thing that I loved to do was long distance cycling.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Running–oh yeah, there you go. So that your–

Torea Rodriguez: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You’re carb-loading, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Pretty much sugar all day long, every day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about fat consumption? Were you doing pretty low fat consumption? Were you doing a lot of nuts back then?

Torea Rodriguez:  Probably.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, nuts and you know, a little bit of olive oil here and there–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  But butter wasn’t in the profile at all. You know, so I was very fatphobic at that point.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So we had blood sugar issues, we had nutrient density issues, you probably had a lot of anti-nutrient issues, adrenal dysfunction–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then autoimmunity which probably was exacerbated by all of the—the grains that you were consuming, too.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  Most definitely, and there was pretty extreme iron anemia–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, wow.

Torea Rodriguez: That we discovered and which explained a lot of the issues that I was having. I was getting hypoxic at very low altitudes at work and hypoxy is the term for when you are lacking oxygen at altitude and usually you’ll feel hypoxic anywhere between 8,000 and 12,000 feet. Everybody’s a little bit different.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  But I was feeling very hypoxic at 5,000.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  And the cabins are pressurized at 8,000 so I was even more fatigued at the end of my shift because I was constantly “at altitude” all day long and getting really sick from it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And so you were an airline–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Pilot where you like flying major airlines or–

Torea Rodriguez:  No, I flew charter and–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Charter.

Torea Rodriguez:  Corporate aviation. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it. Now I’ve heard that—I’m not sure if this is true—but I’ve heard that pilots aren’t able to fly while consuming aspartame, is that true?

Torea Rodriguez:  I would have to double check what the regulations are with the FAA–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  But at the time when I was flying–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez: Aspartame was fine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It was fine. Okay, I wondered if that’s something new.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, it wasn’t a regulated substance, but I’d have to check. That’s curious.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, alright, very cool.  And then let’s dive in. There’s one piece of your autoimmune puzzle that I think may have been an issue but you didn’t allude to it yet. You didn’t mention anything about infections. Were infections a piece of the puzzle for you getting your thyroid and your autoimmune situation under control?

Torea Rodriguez:  They were definitely a piece of the puzzle but they came later.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ahh.

Torea Rodriguez:  Like we really started with diet, lifestyle stuff first.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Started focusing on healing the gut a little bit–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  And then also the adrenals, like I was just–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  So tapped out, right? Getting some–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Totally.

Torea Rodriguez:  Support there, but later on we started to find the GI pathogens for sure and I tested positive for H. pylori and then later on tested positive for a—another one that I can’t even remember the name of it and you know, as we started to treat those and heal those, you know, we’ve kinda talked about lingering symptoms like what’s left, what else is going on?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Torea Rodriguez: You know, and—and sure enough we found Giardia but it took–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow!

Torea Rodriguez:  A number of tests and a number of passes at that for it to finally reveal itself and that Giardia had gotten—I’ve had it for so long that it had left the intestinal tract and actually had gone into the gallbladder.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And so I had all these crazy gallbladder attacks that I couldn’t explain and ultrasounds to make sure it’s not stones, like it was kind of a little bit of a crazy path but we finally found the Giardia and treated myself for Giardia and that was another huge stair step is to finally get rid of that pathogen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So 3 major parasitic infections—H. pylori, something in between was a Blasto? Blastocystis hominis or Crypto?

Torea Rodriguez:  No, it wasn’t Blasto. My husband’s had Blasto. It was Crypto.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Crypto. Okay.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow. That’s—that is nasty. Yeah, that’s a Blasty-Cryp—I call that the Three Amigos by the way.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, definitely felt like the Three Amigos were having a party, that’s for sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right? Now when you went to go attack the Giardia, did you have to do a gallbladder flush to get the gall—to get the Giardia flushed out?

Torea Rodriguez:  I didn’t. Actually–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Torea Rodriguez:  I was pretty lucky with the anti–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez: Pathogens that we used.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Torea Rodriguez:  Actually it turned out to be fine. But yeah–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it. So we have adrenal issues and that—you know, in your situation, it’s kinda unique in how it unfolds and what stressors happen in your life but how things break down is pretty consistent, right? There’s some level of–

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Dietary stress and that’s unique for person, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Whether it’s vegetarian side, whether it’s the standard American diet and lots of conventional meat and grains. You have the adrenal stressors, right? You have imbalanced amount of macronutrients, so I call that blood sugar stressors. You have infections and then you had the autoimmune—the whole immune system all revved up–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because of everything else, because all of the—the things I already mentioned.  I see that

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah and–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I see that with most patients.

Torea Rodriguez:  There’s—there’s another thing in there that kinda added to the whole perfect storm which is what I now call acute stress events.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  There was a period of time between 2008 and 2009 when I was being diagnosed where I had lost a parent suddenly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Torea Rodriguez:  I had gotten into a cycling accident and pretty severe physical injuries and I had an emergency at altitude and was the only pilot on board to deal with that emergency, so there was a huge amount adrenalin that got pumped out that day when I was dealing with that—that actual emergency, and those 3 things all happened within months of each other.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Torea Rodriguez: And that pretty much a perfect storm on the stress side of things to completely cause additional leaky gut and cause additional food sensitivities and everything else that just kinda added to the whole picture.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, you really—you really hit a point there that I wanna emphasize. You talked about the leaky gut and the food sensitivities and I think a lot of people at home, they—they hear stress but they don’t really think about how stress really impacts our digestion or impacts our gut lining.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because the biggest thing that really revs up this autoimmune cycle is stress and what it does to the gut lining and then what that does to undigested food particles and then what that does to the immune system as they slip through the tight junctions to get into the bloodstream.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, absolutely. And you know people hear stress, stress, stress, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez: I get it, but what they don’t understand is that in the lab and I think this was Dr. Fasano’s work–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Is that in the lab one of the ways that they would introduce leaky gut is hitting these poor rats over the head and causing head trauma.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And that’s a physical injury that you know, resulted in leaky gut. So when we have a lot of stress whether it’s physical injury or not, that will cause leaky gut.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And is that mechanism through the head trauma is after decreased activation of the—the vagal nerve?

Torea Rodriguez: That’s my guess.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, that’s what I think, too.

Torea Rodriguez:  That is definitely my guess. Yeah, vagal nerve is so huge in recovery and, you know, stimulating the parasympathetic side of the immune system and nervous system.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I was reading an interesting study just last week on petting animals and it stimulating the vagal nerve.

Torea Rodriguez:  Really? I definitely need a dog again.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So I—you think—I know. I practice next to my dog, Butter, all day so I, you know, pet her. I’m like, “Yeah, I’m getting my vagus nerve going.” You know, I’m—I’m practicing what I preach here.

Torea Rodriguez:  Excellent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So nice little fun fact there.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, I look for all sorts of different ways to simulate vagus nerve when trying to heal autoimmunity because so many of us get kinda stuck in the cycle of the sympathetic side of the nervous system and it’s very hard to start to retrain the body to start activating the parasympathetic side. So I’m always looking for tips like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, that’s good. And now because you’ve had this history you’ve been able to effectively treat it, which is great, what are you seeing in your patients? Are you seeing similar type of events kind of cascading or what kind of infections are you seeing, too?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, so lots of GI pathogens.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  I’ve seen the gamut of them. I’m also seeing patients who are attributing some of their getting sick like how I had that perfect storm of stress events to receiving tetanus vac—vaccination—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  Vaccines, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  Vaccinations.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  Or you know, some other kind of trauma.  Usually it’s a trauma that can start the whole ball of wax to unravel, and so I see that quite a bit, so I pretty much apply the same technique is to let’s get an understanding of what’s going on. Let’s look for some of those co-infections and start dealing with those, so that I pretty much equate it to the immune system as pretty much over—overloaded at this point. It can’t really deal with these things effectively. So we have to help it to get rid of those things so it can become stronger to be able to keep this things at bay. So it’s, yeah–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I totally see that as well, where like the immune system is compromised. It can’t quite get rid of the infection on its own and it needs just a little bit more help with whether a specific protocol that you create to help kind of knock that infection out, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup, absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then you went—you said something about five minutes ago. I wanna kinda come back to it because I think, just through the lens of the patient right now, from a patient talking to you. The biggest thing I see patients that have chronic health issues is when they have multiple infections layered up and they—they get their stool test back or their infectious panel back and they find there is one or two infections. We treat those infections. They come back negative, but a new one comes back. And that’s a really frustrating thing that I let my patients know that there is probably a 20% chance that may happen. And we call it you know, I refer to it as crypt hyperplasia where the infection burrows deeper into the gut lining and it makes its way out as we kinda clean through all the crud if you will. What’s your take on it? How do you explain that or educate your patients about that?

Torea Rodriguez: There’s a couple different analogies that I use for that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  One is that, you know, we are basically going after the bad guys that we see in the beginning of the forest–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  But not the ones that are deeper in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Deeper in, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  And so you have to kinda keep retesting for that and then of course, I’ll get a little technical with them and talk to them about biofilms and how biofilms –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Can get you know, resistant to things like oil of oregano and you know, that kind of thing, so you kind of have–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  To play around with some of these agents that we use to get rid of the stuff to actually get after it, and then you know, the other part, too, is that if—if they’ve done a lot of antibiotics, traditional antibiotics, or they’ve done a lot of use of these herbal antibiotics, often times what doesn’t come into play is the re-population of the gut and so basically we leave this like five-star resort open with neon signs that says, “Bad guys, move in here.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  And then they’re easy to pick up on something else. So sometimes they pick up something else–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Through their travels or whatever but sometimes it’s just really just uncovering it and exploring deeper in that forest.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And this is helpful because I think a lot of people that expect you know, let’s say they have a couple of infections, they expect that once those infections are gone that they’re gonna feel 100% better. And in your situation what percent better were you after those two infections, the H. pylori and the Crypto?

Torea Rodriguez:  At that point, you know we had done a lot of the diet-lifestyle stuff–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  So I would say 60% but getting rid of those only got me about another 10%.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then so it was the last one?

Torea Rodriguez:  Then it wasn’t until–yeah, it wasn’t until we found the—the Giardia–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And start treating the Giardia that things really started to fall into place and then looking at my final lingering symptoms, those are all Epstein-Barr related.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And so now that’s my focus personally and like I still work on the stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  I’ve been working on this since 2009, you know, so it’s—some of my clients are like, “When does it ever stop?” And it could stop now but I refuse to accept mediocrity and you know, I wanna feel good all the time so I will always pursue it, but some people choose to stop when they feel 80-90% better.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right and I guess it depends, right? Because everyone, you know, when do you stop eating healthy? When do you stop exercising? When do you stop going—getting good sleep, right? It just—people, it’s very easy to get addicted to feeling great and then the potential of “Can I feel 5% better this year? What do you think? Is it possible?”

Torea Rodriguez:  Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So it can gets exciting, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  It totally gets exciting and you know, the thing is that that things will change. You’ll start to feel better and then you’ll decide that you wanna go travel to Nicaragua and you get a really nasty bout–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Of food poisoning. Well, guess what?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  You probably just picked up something that you should test for and see if it’s still hanging out in your gut after you get back. So, I mean, we pick up stuff like this all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And what are you doing right now for biofilms? You brought that up earlier with antibiotic resistance, people taking in the past. What are you doing for that with your patients?

Torea Rodriguez:  Biofilms, I mean, you can use several different agents–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  I like to use interface. There’s a couple other things–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  That I’ve used in the past. Not BiotaGen, that is a prebiotic powder.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -Biotic, yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  It’s the Bio-Botanical Industries, do you know which one I’m talking about?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, there’s a couple out there–

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, shoot.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The big ones that I know for my biofilms are—are ginger–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Silver and cat’s claw or Samento. Those are my–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  My favorites to use for the biofilms. Ginger tea is like mandatory for all patients to sip on, you know, for the first few weeks because ginger—there’s a lot of studies on it on helping biofilm reduction.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, that’s fantastic! Yeah. Biocidin–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, Biocidin.

Torea Rodriguez:  It’s the other one that I’ve used.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup. And that seems to do a really good job with people who have been on the Interface for too long and then all of a sudden you’ve got something that’s resistant to that—but ginger is new for me. That’s really fascinating. I’d love to see those papers.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. I mean, you just go ginger and biofilms. There is just dozens of them.

Torea Rodriguez:  Excellent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  There—there was one cool paper where it showed like a Petri dish of like all this resistant bacteria or biofilms, and then like they introduced a small bit of ginger to it and it was like gone. So a big fan of juicing–

Torea Rodriguez:  Fantastic.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I’m a big fan of juicing it though, like fresh juiced ginger, like just kinda throw it in your Vitamix or Magic Bullet if you don’t like the pulp–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Which I don’t like the pulp. I strain it through a French press, and–

Torea Rodriguez:  Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  There you go. Add a teaspoon of honey especially if you don’t have any fungal issues, you could do it. A quarter of a lime and you’re good to go, and it really helps reduce those biofilms.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, ginger is amazing stuff because not only do you have biofilm disruptor, but you’ve got some really great probiotics that are on the ginger root itself.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  So yeah, pretty amazing stuff. I like it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Also anti-inflammatory and anticoagulants. So keeps the crud that gets you know–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Stuck or sludgy moving along, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup. Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cool. So with the patient’s right now, would you say the most common autoimmune condition you’re seeing is Hashimoto’s or thyroid autoimmune disease?

Torea Rodriguez:  You know, honestly I don’t see a lot of Hashimoto’s clients–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  I just see autoimmune diseases.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  In general.

Torea Rodriguez:  They’re all over the place. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  What—what are the big five for you?

Torea Rodriguez:  Rheumatoid arthritis.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  Hashimoto’s is definitely in there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  But then I’ve gotten some really strange ones that, you know, that are skin-related.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup, scleroderma or–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, that sclerodermas and those kinds of things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Psoriasis.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup, psoriasis for sure. Those are the big majors really.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  I don’t see a lot of people with MS and I don’t see a lot of people with Crohn’s. I thought I would. I had one client with Crohn’s, but that was it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Are you seeing a lot of multi-glandular autoimmune syndromes like more than one autoimmune condition with the same patient?

Torea Rodriguez:  Almost everybody–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  I’ve known that’s been diagnosed with our immune has been diagnosed with two if not more.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  I—I’ve two that I know about. I’ve had psoriasis in the past–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  That’s been healed and I know that’s autoimmune. It was never diagnosed by a medical professional but I also have Raynaud’s in the hands–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  That’s fun. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I see that exact same pattern. Raynaud’s, Hashi’s, and some type of either eczema or psoriatic skin condition is like super common.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, yeah, very common for them to go together.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And for listeners, Raynaud’s is just a condition where you get these vasospasms in the—typically in the extremity tips that can cut off blood flow in circulation and create that cold kind of feeling.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, it’s pretty freaky when you look at your hands and your entire fingers are white.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  From the base of the fingers to the tips. The first day that happened to me I kinda freaked out. I was on the bike and couldn’t figure out how to get the blood flowing in the fingers again. It was kind of scary.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I totally hear you. And then talk about the Epstein-Barr in the—I wanna say mono or chronic fatigue that tends to happen from that. How are you diagnosing? What are you looking on lab work to pick up EBV?

Torea Rodriguez:  So I’m a big proponent of the Immunoscience’s panel. They’ve got a viral panel and if you want we can link to it in the show notes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  But they’ve got a really great comprehensive viral panel that you can run or you can ask your doctor to run the markers for you if you want, which will take a look at whether or not you’ve got past exposure or current exposure. Most people who are dealing with chronic EBV have had a past exposure, and my theory is that our immune system is just not as strong as keeping it at bay as somebody else. I mean EBV is so common that we think that nearly 95 to 98% of the population has been—been exposed. It’s just most of them can keep it at bay. So a lot of those types of symptoms are fatigue, feeling like you’re getting the flu but never really coming down with the flu, light sensitivity in the eyes, tinnitus in the ears, pain in the lymph nodes underneath the ears, those kinds of things, maybe a mild fever but hardly ever fever associated with it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, that is super common and the three major things I looked that—I just pulled up the Immunoscience panel and that’s exactly what I run, Viral Capsid Antigen, Nuclear Antigen and Early Antigen.

Torea Rodriguez:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  IgM and IgGs. Any IgM, that’s a sign of more of an acute or—potential active or reactive infection. And any IgG for the Early Antigen–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Is a sign of a potential reactivation. Is that kind of what you go by, too?

Torea Rodriguez:  Exactly. Yeah and you know, when I was first starting to look at this at myself I did this with my naturopathic doctor and we ran the whole lab, and while I didn’t have any IgM for active–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Infection, I have had in her opinion the highest titer she has ever seen for IgGs so I—I got the Gold Star award for that. So it definitely tells me that that’s something that my body has been dealing with for a very long time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely and what are you doing right now from a supplement or herbal standpoint with Epstein-Barr?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, so I am making sure that I stay as far away from sugar as I–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Possibly can because sugar will break down the L-lysine in the body and L-lysine–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Is the amino acid that we need to keep viruses at bay–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  At the most, which ironically now that I know that information is why after I eat a bunch of sugar I feel like crap for three days afterwards.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Torea Rodriguez:  And I take L-lysine as a supplement. I’ve also been experimenting on myself doing an n=1 experiment with using supplemental BHT.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And some people don’t like that approach. Some people love that approach. And that seems to be helping with the constant symptoms that I was having, and not as often anymore. Whether or not it is the BHT or the L-lysine, I don’t know because I’m testing two variables are once. But those are the two things that I’ve been doing and then just making sure that I don’t have a lot of stress, because stress will set me back faster than anything,

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love how foundational things are right at the forefront. That’s I think so important. I think a lot of people miss that.

Torea Rodrigue:  I think—I think we want to throw them in the back corner to be honest –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Right? It’s like we want the easy button sometimes, and sometimes the easy button is just making sure that you’re consistent with the foundations.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I see so many people that come in or have seen me before other doctors and they come in, we have a whole bunch of infections, and the doctors they previously were with just threw a whole bunch of things at them–

Torea Rodriguez:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Didn’t really get lifestyle changes dialed in. Didn’t really get the diet. Didn’t really get blood sugar. Didn’t really get the adrenals or any thyroid or hormone stuff. And they just went after the infections right away and they just shut down.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I think echoing on what you said the lifestyle piece and the diet piece, and even the hormonal—hormone piece before that is so important as a foundation so you can go after these infections and not create a healing crisis.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, absolutely. Like I see this quite often. Of course, everybody wants to end the pain, like I get it. I totally get it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  And you know, we want those results right away but I have seen clients do the same approach with other practitioners and you know, they get thrown a whole bunch of antimicrobials for example. Yeah, that practitioner didn’t look at the liver function and didn’t realize that there are liver wasn’t ready to process all those toxins that are created when we go after the microbes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And yeah, and they completely shut down so that’s why I do a bunch of labs upfront so that I can see like what’s the status of the liver, what’s the status of the neurotransmitters, like let’s look everywhere and then figure out a strategy, and it does take time for sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you mentioned earlier, the butylated hydroxytoluene, the BHT.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Can you talk more about that?

Torea Rodriguez:  So yeah, so butylated hydroxytoluene which is a mouthful–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  BHT—that is the same BHT that used to be in breakfast cereal when you and I were young.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, is that–

Torea Rodriguez:  Like it’s the same stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, it’s the preservatives. So there are–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It keeps it crunchy when it sits in the milk for a while, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  That’s right. Totally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes, I noticed.

Torea Rodriguez:  Capt N Crunch, in fact.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Torea Rodriguez:  So it—there’s research out there that says that it’s a neurotoxin. There’s research out there that says it’s not a neurotoxin. And as you know when you read PubMed research you are always gonna find both sides of the picture.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  But what they have found is that with lipid encapsulated viruses, so the herpes style-type viruses of which EBV is one. It’s actually herpes simplex virus IV. That it has a really good ability to disrupt that lipid bilayer of the viral body and help keep the actual attack of that virus down. And so you know, there—there’s a lot of research out there. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence out there that it works which is why I decided to do an n=1 experiment on myself and it seems to be definitely helping; whether or not I wanna do it long term, I’m not certain yet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I will.

Torea Rodriguez:  If I wanna do it long term. But that’s the only—the only negative of it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I will put a link to the show notes. So if anyone that wants to get more intel on that they will have that at their fingertips. That’s great.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah. I’ll also send you a link to include in the show notes. There is a PDF or an eBook out there called the—the BHT book I think is what it’s called, and it was written by a biochemist by the name of Stephen Faulks and he put together a bunch of the research on its effect on lipid encapsulated viruses.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know Steve. He wrote the book on smart drugs, right?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, okay.

Torea Rodriguez:  He is also known for a—what is it? Aspartame, no, not aspartame. Araspid—araspertam?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh yes. Yeah, the—the various racetams. Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes, those. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup. Big—yeah, he’s a big fan of those. Very cool, awesome.

Torea Rodriguez:  Brilliant biochemist though and he really knows his stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I met Steve over at the—I think it’s Smart Life forum down in Silicon Valley over at Palo Alto.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, he’s a big guy over there. He gives a lot of informative talks.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup, yup, really nice guy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool. Now you’ve kind of alluded to something earlier. I’m gonna go back to it.

Torea Rodriguez:  Great.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  My—my brain thinks. It kinda scatters a little bit, but I—it’ll all make sense at the end here. You talked about toxins and being able to check liver functions. So are we talking about just like in an ALT, AST liver enzymes on a blood test, or were you talking about organic acid testing for the liver?

Torea Rodriguez:  I use both.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  I wanted to take a look at both. So when I take on a client we do a full blood chemistry workup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And an organic acids, and a look at both. I wanna make sure that both phase 1 and phase 2 processes are functioning properly. If they’re not, then I probably won’t go after microbials or pathogens or environmental toxins right away because we want to make sure that the body has a—an appropriate way of clearing this stuff. We don’t want to just add a whole bunch of extra burden to the liver if we can help it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And what you’re cut off for the ALT and AST on your lab test?

Torea Rodriguez:  Umm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Less than 20?

Torea Rodriguez:  Pretty much, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, I wanna make sure that, you know, it’s—it’s not too high. We want to make sure that it’s working efficiently. So–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:   That’s exactly what I do. Now let’s pivot here. You mentioned in our pre-interview, you talked all about the organic acids. You talked about, and I love the organic acid test, I know there’s—I do the Genova testing in my office. I know you mentioned you do the—the GPL, the Great Plains Lab testing–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And he also mentioned about their tox screen, which I’ve—doing more and more frequently. I’m actually gonna be doing a panel of myself as well as the one for the Roundup, the—the glyphosate, too.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So—so let’s pivot there. Talk to me more about the organics and how you’re using it with your patients and then kinda stack on how you’re interchangeably using the toxic screen, too.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, sure. So organic acids, I was taught by another practitioner how to interpret organic acids, and I’ve—I’ve used the Genova as well as the Great Plains and–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  The thing that I love about the organic acids is we’re looking at metabolites of various different biochemical processes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Torea Rodriguez:  And when there’s a problem with one chemical changing form to another chemical in that cycle–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  It will kinda spill over, just like if we had dammed up a reservoir; it kind of spills over and it gets into the urine and this is how we can see where there are problems in those functions in the body. And I think I love it so much because it’s one, simple collection for the client–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  And there are so many markers that look at so many different areas, so we can see bacterial overgrowth in the body pretty easily. It’s super, super sensitive for yeast. Whereas in any kind of stool test, like if you find yeast then you know you’ve got a raging yeast infection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah. So I like that it’s super sensitive for yeast. You can look at neurotransmitter balance. You can look at–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Torea Rodriguez:  You can look at methylation, nutritional deficiencies, like there is so much information in the organic acids that–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mitochondria.

Torea Rodriguez:  It’s just really—yeah. Mitochondrial function which is huge–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  For people without immunity like of course, you’re feeling fatigued because your mitochondria–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Huge.

Torea Rodriguez:  Are not generating energy the way that they should and they are the energy powerhouses of the cell. So you know, knowing that allows me to be able to fine tune somebody’s wellness plan so that they can start feeling better sooner in looking at those kinds of things. So I love the organic acids for that reason.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  What major areas of the organic acid test are you seeing out of balance in your patients right now?

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, gosh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Just myself, I see them all–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But there are certain ones I see more frequently. I’m just curious just kind of like your intuitive guess.

Torea Rodriguez:  In the—yeah, in the last year there’s been a lot–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oxalate and yeast issues.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  I’ve seen not so much neurotransmitter imbalance but definitely mitochondrial malfunction.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Torea Rodriguez: And then the rest is the bacterial overgrowth.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah is really nice because it gives you that extra net to pick up gut issues outside of what you may miss on a stool test.

Torea Rodriguez:  Exactly, which is, you know, we were talking about that forest, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  And trying to find the bad guys in the forest, this gives us another way to do that with a different method which makes it a much better sweep of that forest.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Totally. And what about the tox screen? What kind of toxins are you seeing? How much Roundup, how much benzene, toluene? Whatever else you’re seeing there–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, I really like it. I mean, there’s 172 markers on the—the labs. So it’s–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Unreal.

Torea Rodriguez:  It’s pretty comprehensive but, you know, that is allowing us to not only look at what somebody is biologically infected with like a co-infection but the environmental toxins from everywhere. So if you are getting exposed to lots of gasoline or gasoline exhaust fumes for example, maybe your work is—maybe you’re the person that holds the construction sign on the highway, you know, and you’re breathing in fumes all day long, or you’re a dental hygienist in Europe being put in the face of chemicals all day long, like we get to see those things but more importantly we are seeing pesticides that are used either in the yard or in the garden. We’re seeing the chemicals that are used for cleaning in the house or you know, the insecticides, right? In the house and cosmetics. I have to say it–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  Cosmetics and you know, self-care products, the shampoos, and the soaps, and all of that stuff that we put our skin shows up in this test. So I really love it because it—this is what hammers down the lifestyle piece of it, right? Making those changes to make sure that you’re not getting exposed to plastics for example.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and what are the top three toxins you’re seeing come back on that screening?

Torea Rodriguez:  Honestly, they’re all over the map. I’ve just started running it–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And it seems to be a little bit different for everybody.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  So I haven’t seen something that’s very common. Now the glyphosate that you had mentioned–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes. The Roundup. Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, so that’s pretty much coming back on almost everybody.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know. It’s scary. It really is scary.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup. And that one, you know, not only is it Roundup but that’s—you know, people hear about GMO versus organic food—GMO, 9 times out of 10 is a plant that has been modified to be able to be a Roundup-ready or Roundup resistant.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.

Torea Rodriguez:  Right. So they’re spraying it, like this is the whole deal with GMOs, is like there is spraying it with pesticides, folks, and you’re eating it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Tons.

Torea Rodriguez:  Like that’s what’s happening. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Like billions of pounds a year. I just got my—my whole lawn in my yard here in Austin replaced. We put down sod, and before they were saying, “Oh, typically the protocol is you know, we’re going to throw down a whole bunch of Roundup.” I said, “Nope. You’re just gonna—you’re gonna, you know, go and scalp it. You know use the bulldozer, whatever, do what you gonna do. No Roundup.” They say, “Oh, everyone does it. It’s innocuous. You know, turns into a sod, goes away.” But I’m seeing exactly what you’re seeing, lots of glyphosate or Roundup is found in people’s urine. So it’s obviously getting extracted or it’s coming out but the question is, I mean, “I’m not eating or—you know, pesticides and things like that. How are we getting exposed to it?” So it’s—it’s gotta be ubiquitous in the environment.

Torea Rodriguez:  It is pretty ubiquitous and I’ve talked to the folks at Great Plains and they’re seeing it in almost 100% of samples.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Scary.

Torea Rodriguez:  I mean, it’s—it is really scary.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  And thank you for putting in sod and not turf.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes. You got it.

Torea Rodriguez:  Thank you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You got it.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Try to be–

Torea Rodriguez:  Because I can only imagine the amount of plastic chemicals that I’m gonna find in somebody’s tox screen, then they tell me that they have a turf lawn.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know and I called up the people over down here at—at Chem-free Lawns in Austin and I was talking to them about chemical-free fertilizers. They use a lot of probiotics or they’ll use–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Natural herbs. They’ll even use various Helminths or worms to kill various infections.

Torea Rodriguez:  Oh, cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And—and we were chatting about that for a bit and they were talking to me about the demand to switch away from these more carcinogenic conventional pesticides to these more natural ones, how it’s just the demand is out of this world, and I think people are catching on, you know, if you follow The Truth About Cancer series that was out again this last month, a lot of these chemicals are associated with various lymphomas and leukemias and cancers that are carcinogenic and hormone disruptors. So I think it’s great that people are—by and large are starting to get exposed to this information.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it—you know, it’s one of those things that can—can contribute to autoimmunity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Huge.

Torea Rodriguez:  Because, yeah, it’s huge. So super important.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, was there anything you wanna just kind of leave us with here? I’m gonna go onto my last question that I ask every guest, but is there anything else you wanted to share with the listeners that you find just really impactful or you’re just really passionate about right now that you wanna share?

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that I found in my practice that has been extremely powerful is not only is it diet, lifestyle factors, looking at the functional medicine piece of it, but it’s also really taking a look at your life and what’s important, and sorting through what matters the most, and once you identify what matters the most, like get rid of everything else that doesn’t because it’s just added stress, and we don’t need it, right? So really kinda coming—becoming clear with that, and I think a lot of times people feel like they are expected to have this career, do the—be the perfect wife, you know, all of those things and it’s—it’s really fascinating to determine that sometimes I end up counselling people through career changes–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Torea Rodriguez:  And relationship changes like those are really key parts of health so don’t ignore the emotional side either. That’s my point.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think that’s really important. Where can our listeners find out more about you?

Torea Rodriguez:  So they can go to my website which is ToreaRodriguez.com. We’ll include that in the show notes because that’s a handful to spell out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s only one R. T-O-R-E-A Rodriguez.com. We’ll put the link–

Torea Rodriguez:  Correct.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  For it below. Anywhere else? Do you have a YouTube channel? Do you have a podcast? Do you have anything else going on?

Torea Rodriguez:  If they subscribe to my newsletter and blog, I do a video blog every week, so they’ll be able to get that in the newsletter, and then the other thing that I’m working on right now is the five-week course that’s gonna launch in January. That’s an environmental toxin course, so it’s five weeks to help clean out the home and the body without getting overwhelmed, and that’s gonna include that environmental tox screen that we talked about.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. I’m doing that more and more–

Torea Rodriguez:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I got one on my test, sitting on my desk here that I gotta get done soon on myself, so I’m excited.

Torea Rodriguez:  Excellent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So last question. If you are stuck on a desert island and you only could bring one supplement with you, what would it be?

Torea Rodriguez:  Supplement.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It could be like an herb. It could be like coconut oil. It could be like anything. Just supplement or compound or tincture or whatever you want.

Torea Rodriguez:  Well, the first thing that came to mind is what I’m gonna go with. I’m gonna say an avocado tree.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  An avocado tree, there you go.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, so essential fatty acids essentially.

Torea Rodriguez:  Essential fatty acids, lots of fiber, it’s–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Torea Rodriguez:  You know, it’s awesome. So I love avocado. That would definitely be it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it. Getting our monosaccharide fats going. Very cool.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And also fun fact about an avocado. Avocados have more potassium than bananas. Everyone thinks, “Oh, you know, potassium. Leg cramps, right? Grab a banana.”  Well, actually avocados have more and less sugar.

Torea Rodriguez:  Avocados, awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool. Awesome, Torea. Great chatting with you and well, look forward to have you back on the show soon.

Torea Rodriguez:  Yeah, thank you so much. Super fun.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Thanks.  Take care.

References:
http://www.immunoscienceslab.com/Viral/Viral%20Comp%20Panel.pdf
http://www.torearodriguez.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butylated_hydroxytoluene#Applications
http://www.growyouthful.com/remedy/BHT-butylated-hydroxytoluene.php
http://www.torearodriguez.com/
Detox course: torea.co/WholeLifeDetox
December’s Webinar on the course (06 Dec): torea.co/WLD-DEC6
BHT Book: http://www.projectwellbeing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/BHTbook-StevenWmFowkes-100903.pdf

Testing and tracking your thyroid health – Podcast #111

Dr. Justin Marchegiani welcomes Dave Korsunsky of Heads Up Health back to the show to talk about assessing the thyroid. Listen to this podcast to learn more about the complete thyroid panel and how you can organize your lab test data. 

thyroid testingFind out exactly what you can do about all the information that you get from your thyroid tests in terms of keeping track and charting your own data to look at patterns. Learn how these can be very useful when compared to other variables such as sleep, blood sugar or even the steps you’ve done in a day. Discover why you should get a full thyroid panel and how or where you can get it.

In this episode, topics include:

02:29   The role of the thyroid and hormones

05:26   Components of a full thyroid panel

09:48   Supplementing the thyroid

21:22   Thyroid antibodies

26:10   How or where to get full thyroid panel

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, there, it’s Dr. J. I’ve got my good friend here, Dave Korsunsky. We’re gonna be chatting about how to measure—how to assess your thyroid. Dave’s got some great technology called Heads Up Health, headsuphealth.com. We use this software a lot for—to help patients kind of chart their lab data so they can follow it, create graphs, compare it to other variables like sleep or blood sugar or how many steps you’ve done in a day. So we’re gonna really dig into how to look at and how to assess your thyroid and what numbers and lab values we look at. Dave, how are we doing, man?

Dave Korsunsky: Doin’ great, doc. Thanks for having me. I can see on Skype here that you’re sitting in your home office and I remembered that just a few months ago I was over at your place and we did a—we did a show on testing ketones which went great and happy to be back and actually talking about something that I see coming up all the time. Heads Up Health is pretty active online in a lot of the different Facebook groups and different communities on Ketogenic Diets and Paleo Diets and this—this question of the full thyroid panel comes up all the time. So I’m glad we can dive into it. It’s also something that was personally relevant for me and you may recall when I was your patient, that was one of the things you helped me fix. So I can throw in some of my own personal experience here as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely, that’s great. I was going to do a nice live on-screen recording here of a—with my ketones but my battery is dead. Damn it. I hate wasting these strips. They’re so expensive.

Dave Korsunsky:  Where do you get yours from? It’s 4 bucks a strip here in the US. I know there’s cheaper sources out there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, I got it from the person that you told me to get it from over in New Zealand.

Dave Korsunsky:  That’s right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  On eBay.

Dave Korsunsky:  Actually, it was Australia.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Australia.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yeah, it was Australia.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Australia. Yeah, that’s it–.

Dave Korsunsky:  But they’re clamping down on that now. They—I think it’s illegal for them to ship to the United States now. So they’re getting harder to find on eBay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I hear you. There’s still there a little bit though, but today for lunch I had—I had a collagen bar. I had tuna with a little bit of like Mark’s Primal Mayo so like egg yo—like you know, egg, olive oil or egg avocado oil.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup, I’ve seen that product. Yup, it’s great stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then like some shreds of carrot in there and like a little bit of cut up spinach, so it’s pretty high fat, very little carbohydrate. So my ketones will probably be around 0.6 mmol right now.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Now–

Dave Korsunsky:  Well, as I mentioned to you I don’t have my meter with me, otherwise we could nerd out and do some ketone testing like we did last time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Dave Korsunsky:  Another time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Another time. Absolutely. Well, today we were gonna talk about thyroid and just really put the focus on thyroid and thyroid’s important, right? Thyroid’s that gland that sits kinda right where that bow tie in the neck would, just below and outside of the Adam’s apple and it produces a metabolic hormone called thyroid hormone and that hormone gets produced and it gets converted and activated in the body and there’s a lot of things that are responsible for making thyroid hormone and activating thyroid hormone. Like we’ve talked a lot in the past about ketosis and insulin resistance and having too much or too little insulin can really have an effect on how thyroid hormone gets activated which is really interesting. So with the software that you created over at HeadsUpHealth.com, anyone listening can go head over there and get a free account, but you can plug in your thyroid lab values and–

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Let’s kinda just start—well, let’s just start with an anecdote kind of your personal story of us working together with your thyroid and then we’ll dig in to the meat of the matter here.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yeah, so this was back in I think in 2011-2012 when you were still working out of the Cupertino office.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm, yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  And you may recall you and I met at Asprey’s 1st ever conference.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dave Korsunsky:  In San Francisco and you were hustling there. You had your—your adjustment table out–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:   Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  And you were just—I’m like this guy is awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dave Korsunsky:  So the first time I started working with you, I—I just brought in all my labs from my conventional doctor and—and I had them in a—a horrendous spreadsheet at the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, right.

Dave Korsunsky:  I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening who have those horrendous spreadsheets, but as we started going through my numbers and you started looking at stuff, you noticed that the only test I’d ever had one was TSH, and I maybe had 2 or 3 of those done over the course of a lifetime. Maybe this was standard physical, etc., and so that was one of the first things you ordered for me, was—was a full thyroid panel and I guess maybe I think it’s important to talk about the components about the full thyroid panel, also important to address why maybe a lot of conventional doctors only ordered TSH but in any event that was my situation. So as soon we ran the full panel, there were a few things that—that you noticed and that you immediately picked up on. The first is you noticed that TSH actually looked good. It was great actually in range, perfect. But when we looked under the covers a little bit, we noticed, first of all T4, also excellent and—and you were educating me on all these numbers.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  I had no idea what any of this stuff meant as a patient and—and you sat down with me and took me through this whole panel.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dave Korsunsky:  And you said, “Hey, T4 is the start of the whole cascade.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  That never looks good but then you noticed my T4—my T3 was incredibly low, out of range low.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dave Korsunsky:  And my reverse T3 was out of range high.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dave Korsunsky:  And everything else was fine. So that was my situation and then we started working on it and—and we can talk about the treatment protocol later but maybe you can just get into a little bit more about—first of all what are components of the full thyroid panel?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  Why it’s more important to get that, besides just TSH, and even how people can get that if—if their doctor won’t do it for them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right, exactly. So you can use Heads Up Health and just kinda plug your data in there to help keep track of it. Anyone that’s really doing their thyroid testing, they can use that as a technology to help track it and then compare it to sleep or maybe their carbohydrate levels, right? You could plug it up to MyFitnessPal, one of these apps, and then see how your carbohydrates and/or your insulin chart with your thyroid hormone.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But starting off here, we kinda have the domino rally of our thyroid hormone cascade, meaning the first block that falls over is TSH. Now TSH is a brain hormone so a lot of people really get wrapped up in TSH being too high or too low, but it’s a brain hormone. It’s—it’s not quite like measuring your thyroid hormone. It’s very indirect. So TSH is looking at how the brain is yelling or talking to the thyroid. The whole analogy is if the thyroid’s not producing enough thyroid hormone, it’s like someone across the room that can’t hear you, you instinctively raise the volume of your voice, which is because the thyroid is on the lower side, right? Lower thyroid function, if someone can’t hear you, you raise the volume, the thyroid raises the volume of TSH and just like if you were in a library and—and it’s really quiet and they’re really close to you whisper and you lower the volume because it can—it’s where the thyroid or the person is very receptive to your voice. So think of your thyroid, kinda in those analogies. So TSH too high or too low can mean issues. The problem is if you’re waiting for the thyroid to be assessed and you’re looking at the TSH, it can take a very long time. Some even say 8-10 years to assess the thyroid properly by looking at the TSH because it’s a late stage indicator. It’s not the thyroid, it’s the brain. So if you’re looking and waiting for the thyroid to get assessed, it may take a while, and not to mention it’s—it—either the cut-offs for the reference range are pretty high. I mean, typically in the East Coast it’s gonna be about 5-1/2 on the TSH. In the West Coast, it’s gonna be a 4-1/2 on the TSH, where once it gets to that height, we call that hypothyroidism because the brain’s having to yell so loud that the thyroid is—we’re assuming is not responding well. I’ll just kinda take a breath there.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Any comments on that, Dave?

Dave Korsunsky:  No, I think it makes sense. I mean especially if—if you’re waiting on changes that have to happen in the brain. So help me understand that. That—that’s presumably stuff that takes a lot longer to settle in, and—and it may mean eliminating stress in your life.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, sleep.

Dave Korsunsky:  It may mean dietary change. It may mean–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dave Korsunsky:  Also the things–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  That—that first have to show up at a—at a brain level, like at a neurotransmitter level or at some level in the brain. So that has to happen first before you see change in thyroid. Is that right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, so when we look at TSH, it can be a really good indicator if something’s really high of diagnosing or picking up hypothyroidism.

Dave Korsunsky: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Now, the conventional range 4-1/2 on the West Coast, 5-1/2 East Coast, I like it to be around 1,

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Definitely 2-1/2, 1 to 2-1/2 is a pretty good, what I call functional range for the thyroid. That’s a good starting. Again the—where it gets fuzzy is when you start supporting someone’s thyroid because they need thyroid with thyroid glandular or hormone, most docs are basing the treatment off of the TSH.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Not a good way to do it because the brain is very sensitive. It’s more sensitive to thyroid hormone than the actual peripheral receptor sites. So my analogy for the patients is, go outside on a hot day and figure out the temperature by touching the sidewalk. Well, the sidewalk conducts heat much higher than the air, so it’s gonna be a lot hotter.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I.e., the TSH may respond more sensitively because of the receptor sites, just like the sidewalk would be hotter or be more sensitive to heat than the air. So that’s step 1. Step 2 is then looking at the T4 hormone which is what’s made by the thyroid. So TSH comes down, talks to the thyroid, the thyroid goes through this process called deiode— deiodination where it’s adding and building thyroid and tyrosine and thyroglobulin molecule to build this thyroid hormone, alright? Vitamin A, copper, zinc, magnesium, selenium are also involved in those processes. Vitamin A as well. And–

Dave Korsunsky:  So that’s why you got me on a selenium. Part—part of your treatment then was—was adding some of these supplements in at some point.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dave Korsunsky:  is that right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, exactly. Iodine can be really important, too. You just gotta be very careful with iodine because a lot of people that have thyroid issues, it’s autoimmune in nature. It’s the immune system attacking the thyroid gland. So you gotta be careful because more iodine can be like throwing gasoline on the fire.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So you gotta be careful in the beginning. I always favor giving selenium in the beginning over giving—over giving iodine as well just because of that inflammatory mechanism. So–

Dave Korsunsky:  Yeah, that’s where you started me off. You started me with selenium and then we added the iodine then later.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, exactly. So we have our T4, right? We make that through this whole iodination process. Then we convert it or we activate T4 to T3. So when we look at T4, we like our T4 Total being around 6-10, that’s a pretty good range for T4 Total, and T4 Free about 1-1.5 is a pretty good range. Again, go over Heads Up Health to get all these ranges more in depth.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We then cleave off, right? This is part of the deiode—the—this is the 5-prime deiodinase enzyme, that’s selenium-based, that now cleaves off the iodine process. So it’s iodination is what makes the thyroid hormone then de iodinate, we pull an iodine, we—we grab an iodine off. So instead of being T4, now it’s T3. There’s 3 iodines now and we activate T3 which is the active thyroid hormone. So that’s what’s really having the whole metabolic reaction in the body, increasing our temperature, increasing metabolism, energy, heat, temperature and the selenium enzyme’s really important into that. And when you go on Heads Up, you’ll see T3 Free, we like above 3, you know, above 3-3.8, 3.4, you know, 3.8, 3.4 is fine, pretty good, right in that top 25%, top third of the reference range is great. 3.0 to about 4 is fine and that’s for T3 Free. And T3 Total, we like above 100, 100-130 is fine, and again we fine tune that with objective temperature testing, making sure the temperature is looking well. So typically 97.8 to 98.2 if we’re looking at the armpit or 98.2 to 98.6 if we’re looking at the mouth is a pretty good way to assess that.

Dave Korsunsky: Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And we’ll do that in the morning before we get up and we’ll do it in the afternoon before lunch, because if we increase metabolism, we’re thinking that that’s gonna spill over into objective symptoms like energy but we’ll also see it as heat in the temperature.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup. So I remember when we’re working on Heads Up, you said, “Dave, you need to have a place to track basal temperature as well.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes. Yes.

Dave Korsunsky:  And that’s part of what you’re doing. Do you use that to diagnose or to zero in on—on thyroid health?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  it’s a good indicator to look at side by side. The problem is a lot of people have broken thermometers, and I’m just—I see people coming back with 95 on their temperature and it’s just like they have no—you know, they’re feeling better. Their temperature’s up and then when you tell them to get a new thermometer, and it’s better. So you know, I don’t put too much stock in it, but it’s nice to see it–

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  When it starts to change and move in the right direction and it correlates with symptoms and it does that a lot.

Dave Korsunsky:  I know that when you were helping me along those lines, it was specifically recommended to use a mercury-based thermometer, and in that one time you had those on your website and they are—they’re getting increasingly harder to get, so is that still something you sell on your site?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I have a couple right here. I’m gonna throw them up on screen. I actually have 4 right here.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I used to recommend more of the mercury. The problem was I actually dropped a couple and I was just like, “Damn, it’s too dangerous.”

Dave Korsunsky:  I did, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And so it’s just—I just said, “You know what, even though it’s —it’s accurate, nice. It’s just not worth the potential of dropping it and having the toxicity of having to clean it up.” So I went away from it just because I’ve met some accidents.

Dave Korsunsky:  Sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So what I typically use now is just the highest ranked fertility digital thermometer on Amazon. That’s measured to a 100.

Dave Korsunsky: Cool, yeah, it’d be good—yeah, it’d be good to get that model if you have it. I know, I’m going to get another one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I—I have it in my store over at JustInHealth.com. It just links to Amazon and–

Dave Korsunsky:  Got it. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And in JustInHealth approved products and then my thermometer’s there. But it’s just the highest ranked fertility digital. Not just the digital but a fertility one because fertility has to be more accurate than—than not because of the nature of hormone testing in temperature.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup, good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So that’s where I’m at now. So I do like temperature. It’s nice for patients to see it, to feel it. Also with the temperature testing that’s pretty cool is you can get a window into how the adrenals are functioning, too, because if your temperatures are varying greater than 0.3°F per day can be a really big sign that the adrenals are overtaxed.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So one of the things we see as people’s thyroid and adrenals get healthier and better, their temperatures get warmer and they’re more consistent. Warmer and more consistent means healthier thyroid and healthier adrenals.

Dave Korsunsky:   Yup, okay, that’s all good. So what’s on the rest the panel? I know there’s a bunch of other stuff that’s included in—in the full thyroid panel where—we’re slowly working our way through it here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So TSH, we already mentioned.

Dave Korsunsky: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The T4 Free and Total. Again, the Free represents about 2-5% of the hormone level.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The Total represents the balance.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  T3 Free and Total.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  T3 uptake. What’s being absorbed and taken up by the receptor sites.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We like above, you know, upper 20s, 28 to lower 30s, 32, 33, 34 is fine.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We also like to look at reverse T3. Now this is important because this was something that came up on your test.

Dave Korsunsky:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You had good levels of T4 but then you weren’t converting downstream to T3, right? We had this high level–

Dave Korsunsky:  Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Of reverse T3 and just, you know, a sub-clinical low level of T3 but it was me—really going downstream to RT3 or reverse T3.

Dave Korsunsky:  Exactly. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And reverse T3, it’s like putting—it’s like putting blanks in your gun. You fire the gun off, you hear the noise but no bullet comes out. You got this blank that’s sitting in that thyroid receptor site. It’s supposed be like T3 but it doesn’t quite have that metabolic property so to speak.

Dave Korsunsky:  So do you—do you see that a lot, Doc? Where there’s—where that conversion is just not happening, right? And—and what are the first things you think of when you see that the T4 to T3 conversion is just not uprating right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great question. So the first scenario, if T4 to T3 is not converting well but we see reverse T3 going high–

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You know, we always think selenium and we always think stress.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So then when we look at stress, we’re making sure the diet’s good, sleep’s good. We’re looking more at the adrenal to make sure the adrenal function is good as well, and you know, making sure practices of meditation, the right amount of exercise are good, not overexercising or underexercising, keeping all the bad foods out, and then we’ll even use things like selenium to help lower reverse T3 and even things like milk thistle to lower it as well to help clear it out because a lot of that reverse T3 is made by the liver so we can clear it out but we gotta fix the underlying reason why it was getting converted there to begin with. That’s the key.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup, makes sense. And I think in my case, it was just a combination of things exactly like you described. It was really a stressful time for me personally. You introduced the selenium supplement. I also at that time started moving over to a much cleaner diet, more of a Paleo based diet, coming off of just a standard diet. So I think all of those things helped and then what we were doing was we were—were running the thyroid panel. You’d—you’d give me my treatment protocol in my Word document. I’d—I’d get the intervention. We’d run the thyroid panel 3 months later and we’d—we’d track the numbers and I could get engaged in that process and one of the things—one of the reasons I build Heads Up was because I genuinely believe that when the patient can get engaged with their numbers and understand what they mean, it helps. It just gets—you get better results and so we saw it, right? We’d—we’d run the test every 3-6 months and we’d look at the new numbers together and I just love that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  It was really, really effective.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and I think we also did—we did some milk thistle as well to help. If I remember correctly you were doing those Insanity workouts, an hour–

Dave Korsunsky:  Yeah, I just crushed—I had crushed my adrenals.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  Like just—I was overtraining. I was in a stressful situation work-wise. You know, my diet wasn’t great. You know, having too much fun on the weekends.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, you were doing that.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yeah. All—all of the ingredients were there for a—for a disaster but luckily we were able to intervene and—and get things course corrected.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I remember you definitely made some changes with your diet. You were getting more—more quality fats, better quality fats in there as well that was helping out a lot.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then we got you on the adrenal support, too, which I think made a big difference. And I know we also had some gut issues that came up–

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Down the road, too, that I think as we addressed those we had improvements there, too. I think maybe a Klebsiella or some kinda bacterial overgrowth.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yeah, these were all important pieces that we had to work on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  Actually, another—another big one for me was actually just racking my sleep. I know it—it sounds silly but even just getting some basic metrics from like a wrist worn device, a FitBit. In my case, I’m wearing one on my wrist now. Just having some data about when I was going to bed and when I was getting up, and how much sleep I was getting on a regular basis. Until you see the numbers, I didn’t realize that I was maybe 6 hours not getting enough and when you’re overtraining and not getting enough sleep and—and you start to see all of that, and you start to see the information that I’m getting from you that are—that are suggesting lifestyle-related stressors, having that that sleep information was—was really, really helpful and it brought a whole new awareness to my sleeping patterns and help me try to move to a—a more natural sleep-wake cycle instead of midnight or one. For example, going bed at 10 and it takes some time to get your body back on a—on a more normal cycle but there’s so much data we were collecting that was helpful along the process and it’s just part of what we wanted to do in Heads Up is give people a place to track it all, but sleep was really important in addition to all of the things that—that you mentioned that we fixed as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, absolutely. So kinda just coming back in line here. We talked about the thyroid conversion piece. Sleep really helps because sleep can help curtail cortisol levels, can also help maximizing growth hormone levels which are important for being anabolic and repairing tissue.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And also can help with recycling neurotransmitters, right?

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup, and—and there was al–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, go ahead.

Dave Korsunsky:  There was also some antibodies on that thyroid panel–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  That you always look at as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  You were always looking for autoimmunity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. Yes.

Dave Korsunsky:  So maybe what—we could talk about that for a bit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  One step ahead of me.

Dave Korsunsky:  Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Let me just—let me just come full circle on the thyroid conversion piece.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Almost there. So the sleep piece is really important.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The selenium is really important for all the nutrient levels in helping to convert that downstream.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Also insulin resistance, a lot of people that have high levels of insulin, they may have this hard time converting thyroid hormone or activating it T4 to T3. If they have high levels of stress hormone that may help as well or hurt the conversion. If they’re really have—almost low levels of cortisol because of HPA axis dysfunction.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup. That–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Where the brain is numb talking to the thyroid that can really help decrease that conversion, prevent the T4 from going to T3. Certain nutrients like copper and selenium and zinc. Also high levels of mercury can also be a big factor. So those are kinda just some—some good generalizations there. Now getting to your next question that you asked—perfect timing was was the thyroid antibodies. So, so many of the thyroid—so many thyroid conditions are actually brought upon by autoimmunity, meaning your immune system is making specific antibodies that are attacking the thyroid gland.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  One is known as TPO or thyroid peroxidase enzyme. It’s an enzyme that puts thyroid hormone together and then the other one is the thyroglobulin antibody which is the surface protein of the thyroid. And if you’re making antibodies and you’re tagging the thyroid then you’re gonna be attacking it and breaking it down and these B cells and B lymphocytes are gonna be getting in there and attacking it.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And that’s not good because as it’s being attacked, it’s like stag—stabbing a knife into it and thyroid hormone drips out.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So your TSH and thyroid hormone levels can be off for a long time. You could have hot flashes and anxiety, and tachycardia and be sweating a lot and that’s a really good sign that you’re starting this whole autoimmune progression and again, conventional medicine will not get to the root cause. They ignore the immune mechanism, i.e., the antibodies. They forget what’s driving it and they just say, “Here’s Synthroid,” and they just wanna get that thyroid TSH back nice and low again but we’re not getting with—with the simple things like the gluten and the grains and the inflammation and the insulin resistance and the infections that are so commonly addressing it.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup. I know there’s a lot of people really close to me that are dealing with autoimmune conditions and so that’s something that—that comes up all the time. You—you’ve worked with many of those people directly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  And have helped them–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dave Korsunsky:  Make the changes necessary to—to work on those antibody numbers specifically.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I think that’s why you did really well off the bat, too, because one of the big changes you made, because you were like just starting to get into Dave’s Bulletproof Diet and you were–

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cutting out grains and really cutting out mycotoxins.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you were eating more fat so you were stabilizing your blood sugar and getting your insulin better. I think that really helped with calming down any potential autoimmunity that may have been present.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yeah, and if I think back to some of the things that were going on at that time, it was—it was definitely going on to the Bulletproof Diet at that time that helped a lot. That helped with a lot of the blood sugar stabilization.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Big time.

Dave Korsunsky:  And you mentioned that that’s one of the reasons there—there may be T4 to T3. working on stress, getting the GI stuff fixed up. You ran the tests to do that. You also ran the adrenal test which I think just are more indicative that there’s–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  A stress—a stressor in the system whether it’s physical or mental, so we worked on that and then some—some supplements to help. Selenium being the—the most obvious one, and all of those things worked and then we re-ran the numbers and it was—you know, it took a while. Maybe this was a 12-month process, 18-month process where we worked everything out, but it was great. And there’s that—that functional medicine type process where you’re doing what we just described. I mean, how common is that in—in your practice with patients you’re seeing?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, it’s really common especially the autoimmune piece because people are stressed. They’re not eating good—good meals. They’re insulin resistant because of the suppressed immune system of all the things I’ve mentioned, opportunistic infections kinda take hold as well. So that’s a multi-layer kind of system that we’re looking at so you really gotta wade through it systematically so we can get to all of the key lynch pins.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  If you’re just doing one thing to systematically or symptomatically make you feel better, may not be what kinda unlocks the healing long-term.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup, makes sense. And so just going back to the—to the thyroid panel, I mean, when we first started working together, you—you didn’t see that in any of my previous lab testing so it’s something you ordered right away.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dave Korsunsky:  Is—is that something you like to do upfront with—with all patients? It’s just to see where those numbers are or is it case by case?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It’s case by case. It depends what symptoms are present off the bat. If we’re going to the person’s history and there’s lots of energy issues and lots of mood issues like let’s say hair loss, outer third eyebrows, let’s say cold fingers, cold hands, tingling, numbness, things like that. We will definitely order a thyroid. If we don’t have a lot of the hair loss and the cold hands and cold feet-

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Stuff off the bat, we typically stick to the adrenals first, see how good or bad the adrenals are and then I have them do temperature testing over the next month and we monitor through there.

Dave Korsunsky:  Cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And if symptoms are improving on the adrenal protocol and their temperatures look decent, we won’t necessarily jump to the thyroid off the bat. If we’re not quite getting the improvement we’re looking at and temperatures are low, then we’ll go and we’ll dig in to that thyroid.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup, that makes sense. And I’ve, you know, personally for the last 8 months I’ve been on a–on a Ketogenic Diet and have been doing really well with it but I’d love to run another panel to see how my numbers stack up and that kinda leads into my next question which is a lot of people when they go the doctor, they—they may not be able to get the full panel ordered for—for various reasons. There has to be a diagnostic code of something like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  So, I know you have the panel available. Is that one of the panels people can get from you and just go to Lab Corp and get it? I realize you gotta pay out of pocket, but sometimes that’s just the most—the quickest and easiest way instead of having to negotiate with—with your doctor.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, yeah. The panel that we have online, the complete thyroid panel in the store, so justinhealth.com, click on the Healthy Living Store, you’ll see the lab test button. Click it and look for the complete thyroid panel. And that panel I think it’s about $150 and that’s a complete–

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You can’t run anything for the most part.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  On your thyroid.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It’s got all of the thyroid markers you need. Typically if that panel is not covered by insurance, right? That’s over a $1000.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So by just paying cash, you kinda cap—you cap your losses so to speak and that’ll give you everything you need. That’s a really good first line for anyone with thyroid issues. That’ll give you everything you need to—to get a complete picture of what’s going on.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yeah, and I see—I see a lot of people who we communicate with and just a lot of people who are asking questions and stuff who—who may not be making progress as they move to—they make the nutritional changes. They go Paleo. They make the dietary changes. They’ve adopted Keto or some of those principles and they’re not seeing any changes in body composition and so it’s—that’s often something that I think of and are those correlated? Would you start to look at—at thyroid and metabolic if you’re not seeing changes once you make the—the nutritional interventions?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. The thyroid can control metabolism, heat and energy, so it’s definitely a place that you wanna look at for sure. When people have their thyroid working better, they tend to be able to have a higher metabolism, burn more calories, burn more systemic body fat which is a really good thing.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But not all the time. Some people—it’s just, we get their thyroid working better they’re no longer depressed and constipated and their hair starts growing back.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So I see the thyroid kinda being a different—having different priorities, you know, they may not be the priorities that you want so to speak, fair enough. But it’s—it’s amazing we see different things happen and I can’t tell you how much depression and mood changes with better thyroid.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yeah, and—and a lot of the people, a lot of our users who are on Keto actually, it’s a—it’s a small percentage but they do start to report hair loss in some cases and can you talk about when it may be for example a nutrient deficiency vs a thyroid for example? Is it hard to tell? Any thoughts on that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So you’re talking about looking at the lab work? How can you tell it’s a nutrient issue?

Dave Korsunsky:  Well, let’s say you were dealing with hair loss for example and you mentioned that thyroid could be one option, could it also be jus due to dietary issues, for example?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely, absolutely. I mean we need protein. They tend to be all connected because if we have a protein issue, well, if we are having a protein malabsorption where it’s affecting the hair, it’s probably affecting the thyroid because we need certain amino acids that would be in those foods to help make thyroid hormone like tyrosine for instance. So if it’s showing up on the gut level, it’s probably gonna eventually make its way to the thyroid level, too. So–

Dave Korsunsky:  So protein specifically in the diet is what—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  What we’d be looking for?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I mean high quality protein. I mean if we have people with gut issues, we’ll use like various collagen peptides and/or free form amino acid products to deliver the protein in a way where there’s no digestion required to really process it.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That way it gives the digestion some time to relax while we work on fixing it.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But I never just isolate variables. If I see the thyroid and I see protein and gut issues, we’re gonna fix everything, you know?

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  As we go through body system 1, 2, and 3 and if it’s something we tr—address in body system 1 with the thyroid, meaning where we’d look at ATF or ATM—adrenal, thyroid and male hormones or adrenal, thyroid, female hormones—and we start to see the hair start coming back with thyroid hormone, that’s a great sign.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then it may come back as we start repleting nutrients in body system 2 with the gut.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm. Makes sense.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So I mean we’ll trace it back afterwards and kinda use this retrospective look at it and say, “Hey, when we did this, that happened more and when we did this, this happened more.” Sometimes you can’t tell because there’s a delay.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So we try to do our best and just fix what we find.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup, makes sense.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But–

Dave Korsunsky:  Well, I know I’m due for a full set of labs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  Thyroid panel included and—and you’ll be the first to take a look at them once they’re ready, so yeah, I’ve to get working on that and part of—part of what you were helping me with was—was building Heads Up Health to help people track all of this information.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dave Korsunsky:  Particularly when you’re working with health experts outside of the conventional system, just having everything in one place and being able to share it with any doctor you want, so you and I will be working on that together in the near future.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely and I wanted to touch upon one last thing because I know you’re—we’re really getting out there to the Keto community which I think is great. One situation that I’m seeing is most thyroid conditions, I’d say 99% off the bat, they’re gonna do so much better off the bat especially if they’re coming from a standard American diet going Keto–

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because that’s gonna help insulin resistance. It’s gonna help this–

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Kinda numbness to this insulin receptor where–

Dave Korsunsky:  For sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You know, we’re not getting the insulin low enough because these receptors are so numb to get sugar into the cell.

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right?

Dave Korsunsky:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Insulin’s the—insulin’s the key. The receptor is the lock and basically the receptor site’s not accepting the key so we have to put—put—essentially push more keys into the hole to get that key out, to get that essentially door open to let the sugar in. So we get this insulin resistance where more keys getting into the cell. So that’s not a good thing because insulin when it’s too high can cause lots and lots of hormonal issues. One of them being thyroid conversion or T4 to T3 thyroid hormone activation. So getting on a Ketogenic Diet is gonna be essential because it’s gonna really get that insulin level down. The only thing is I find sometimes when people are long-term Keto, sometimes we may be get a little bit—we may go a little too low on the insulin and if we add just a small amount of carbs even just 10-20g, it can be enough to get your insulin levels a little bit higher and we see an aid in thyroid conversion. We’ll see T3 go up on the lab work. We’ll see hair—hair improved or maybe even temperature improved but that tends to be when people are Keto chronically or long-term. Everyone’s gonna–

Dave Korsunsky: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Benefit on off the bat and get a really big benefit. It’s long-term afterwards. We wanna fine tune it and I’m totally non-dogmatic about it. If you can keep at a Keto level or—that’s great. If not, we just up it 10-20g to see how we do. I had a patient just yesterday we upped it about—we add about a quarter of sweet potato at night and a lot of her low thyroid symptoms went away.

Dave Korsunsky:  Makes sense. Yeah, well, I mean this is all good stuff, Doc. I think there’s so many people that need the—the full thyroid panel. Maybe have never had it before or maybe they‘re stuck just where they are in terms of their health transformation. I know it was a huge step for me, just seeing these numbers, figuring out how we address them. I know you make the panel available to people who can’t get it from their doctor which is awesome. Heads Up Health has got the software to help people track all of this stuff especially if they’re getting data from different labs and they wanna manage it all in one place. So hopefully there’s some people who can use the information here, get their own panel run and it may be an important diagnostic piece for them as they work on their own health goals.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. I’m gonna put the complete thyroid panel in the link below so if you’re interested in it, feel free and click on it. That’ll be a great way to access that panel.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup, and I can include some information for people who want to start getting all of their health records organized using Heads Up Health. There’s a couple videos we put out there that just showed how to integrate all the medical records, basal temperature, macro nutrients so I can send that along as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Great. Any other questions, comments or concerns, Dave?

Dave Korsunsky:  No, this was great. I see this topic come up all the time. So I’m glad we were able to address it and—and provide some information on what the full thyroid panel is and—and what the markers are and some of the things you can start doing to—to fix it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So anyone listening to this and kinda, you know, has all these labs in front of them and not quite sure you know what to do with it, get over to Heads Up Health. Get it integrated in there so you can start seeing patterns and then it’ll be really fun as you go forward tracking your labs. You’ll be able to see trends that you may have not seen otherwise.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup, sounds great.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Alright, Dave. Great talk! You have an awesome day.

Dave Korsunsky:  Yup, likewise. Thanks, Doc. Take it easy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Thanks, bye!

 

Thyroid Test: https://justinhealth.com/products/complete-thyroid-panel/
Heads Up Health: https://www.headsuphealth.com


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