Natural Solutions For Dandruff Fungal Overgrowth – Dr. J Live Podcast #162

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand talk about dandruff in today’s podcast. Learn what causes it and explore other possible underlying health conditions like gut infections involving bacteria, yeast, fungus or parasites.

Gain an understanding on how functional medicine practitioners approach this kind of problem including their clinical strategies and the testing involved.  Get very helpful information regarding the products that they have found effective to address dandruff and the supplements they recommend to improve health conditions related to dandruff issues.

In this episode, we cover:

06:32   Antibiotics and Dandruff

07:27   Fungus and Refined Sugar

14:25   Birth Control Pills Effect and Dandruff

23:03   Hair Loss and Thrush Issues

32:16   Glutamine and Leaky Gut

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Evan Brand: Weekend was great. Life is good except for the weather—rainy, cloudy cool. Fall is here officially, but what can you do?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool. My wife and I brought our new baby to his first wedding. That was pretty exciting. First wedding with the new one was fun and he did a great job.

Evan Brand: Oh, good. Ain’t it great when you go out on public and the baby is good, isn’t that great?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Totally. How’s your baby doing?

Evan Brand: Oh, she’s great. She’s actually— she’s got her molars coming in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, wow!

Evan Brand: So she’s very incessantly crying this morning. Uh— but wife texted me and said the baby knocked out. So naptime is a good time. That’s great, man. Very cool. Well, we chatted kinda in our early part of the show talking about what we’re gonna talk about today, really. And we kinda discuss that dandruff is a big issue that’s been coming up in our clinical practice. We want to talk about kinda what is and just some of the clinical strategies that we utilize to approach it and to help address it from a root cause functional medicine perspective.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Something I think we should hit on first is what’s the conventional approach is? Is it dermatologist that people are getting refer to? Like what’s the rabbit hole would you say that people end up on with the dandruff problem?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So dandruff typically uses excessive shedding of kinda the skin on the scalp. And it tends to be fungal driven. Of course, there are natural diet things that help, right? Good fats, good proteins, like the digestive, the hydration component. All those things are important, but the infection component is really important because you can have the diet stuff all dialed in and that may not be enough to get rid of that infection component. And sometimes the— the fungal overgrowth that—that’s there could be there from a deeper infection. It could be there from H. pylori or blasto or deeper parasite infection. So, it’s important we keep our eye on what could be there in the scalp area, but also what other bigger infections could be promoting that overgrowth.

Evan Brand: Yup. So, if you go to conventional doc and you just happened to bring up dandruff, what are they going to do? You think they’ll just refer you out to a dermatologist in then they’ll give you some steroids for it?  What would the conventional approach be? That way we have something to contrast it to our functional medicine approach.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So your conventional approach is gonna be head and shoulders or sell some blow. That’s gonna be the general conventional approach. They may give you uh—a uh—you know, systemic antifungal medication that they see other kinds of things happening there. That’s gonna be the general consensus.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So the first thing that we’re gonna look at is we would probably lean more towards a anti-fungal kind of shampoo that’s herbally-based like tea tree or lavender or uhm—neem. These are some of the really good antifungal shampoos that are out. We’ll put some of the links below couple of the ones that I like are Art Naturals and Purely Northwest. We’ll put some links below here, so people can access them. We—I use those in my clinic a lot. You can also just get some pure you know, apple cider vinegar. You can mix a little bit of coconut oil. You can even do a little bit a tea tree and put it straight and kind just gonna do a little scalp massage and get right there in the scalp. That can be helpful, too. Uhm—but  some other shampoos that are out there that already to go. So that’s another good option for you. Just, if you don’t want to have to deal that.

Evan Brand: Cool. So let’s talk about testing. I mean this is always our philosophy. “You’ve got to test, don’t guess.” If you’ve got a fungal issue, we talked about parasites. So we want to look into the gut and in the organic acids testing. Wouldn’t you say that be an important one for this, too?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I like the organic acids because because you can kinda look at fungus that may be more systemic. So when we look at a gut test, we may see various species of fungus in the gut. We may see Candida. We may see geotrichum yeast. We may see other types of Candida species. These are different species of yeast. And again, yeast is like the big umbrella. Fungus is the big umbrella and then we have some species of yeast there kinda under that big umbrella of fungus. So fungus is the big umbrella, yeast is the— the smaller kind of umbrella. And again,s mold like different molds that you may see like aflatoxin mold or ochre toxin. These different compounds are also kinda under that fungus mold umbrella as well, right?
Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So getting to your question—Those are some of the big ones that you may see. Now, the benefit of the organic acid test is we have some markers that are more systemic base. So we have the D-rabanose. It’s an interesting marker that looks at fungal overgrowth from a systemic perspective. So, sometimes we see people to get the stool test back and they’re maybe okay from a fungal perspective, but when we look at the organic acid urine, we may see that the D-rabanose is on the higher side which tells us there maybe some kinda fungal thing going on at a systemic level and sometimes we may see it systemically but not on the gut. So that’s a good marker, too, for treatment.

Evan Brand: Yep, cool. Yes, so, Justin and I, between us both, we run thousands and thousands and thousands of stool and organic acids testing. I would say, Justin, tell me if your assumption is different. Nine out of every 10 people have a yeast and/or a fungal problem. Whether it’s to the level which can cause extreme issues or not. Maybe it’s not nine out of 10 that have an extreme problem, but someone somewhere, nine out of 10 is gonna pop up with something that needs to be addressed in that category

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. 100%. I think there’s some –there’s always some gut component. I would say the majority is a gut component. And most people with a gut component, uh—yeast is gonna be present. I find that yeast as the primary issue isn’t more common—it’s—actually less common, I should say. Where it’s more common is there’s a deeper, infection like a parasite or bacterial infection that’s of a higher level.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And yeast is kinda there, kinda like you see these sharks and you see these underlings that kinda suck to the shark’s belly.

Evan Brand: Yup, right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: They’re kinda like that. They’re just there as the underling and you get these bigger, stronger kind of critter that is the primary focus.

Evan Brand: Oh, by the way, I don’t know if this is true, I heard from a client of mine last week, supposedly, diagnostic solutions is coming out with a new panel that can be added to the GI-MAP where we can actually test for worms including pin worms.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s awesome! I’m really excited. Worms are definitely a concern. I know we’ve talked about, you know, we use –we add in worm wood. We added mimosa pudica, various herbs like that to help with a lot of these worms as well.

Evan Brand: Yeah. So, that’s true. We’re gonna have some really good extra clinical nuggets in our hand.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent.

Evan Brand: So—I wanted—I wanted to mention antibiotics. So, somebody does have dandruff and we could also convey that message to other issues with the hair, the skin, the nails.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: There’s probably a history of like a urinary tract infection, right? So like these yeast and fungus that you’re talking about. If that’s affecting the vaginal area for a female and they get put on some type of natural antifungal or probably a conventional anti fungal. That stuff’s gonna come back with a vengeance. They may end up doing antibiotics therapy, too. And that’s not good. That’s gonna create a lot of room for the yeast and fungus to overgrow and  all of a sudden, you’ve got the clean up crew that has to come post-antibiotics.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent.

Evan Brand: We’re not big fans. Like if you can avoid antibiotics, if your life is not in danger, then you could probably go ahead and say skip them and go to the natural remedies instead.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A hundred percent. So of course, the big thing when we deal with any type of fungus is really cutting out refined sugar. So, if we could look at our carbohydrates, we kinda draw a line down the middle. We have like real food carbohydrates on one side of the fence, and then we have refined sugar carbohydrate with extra added sugar to the carbs on the other side. So, basically, draw that line, anything that’s refined sugar, we throw out, and then the left side, I kinda break it down into starchy, non –starchy, okay? So, starchy being like sweet potatoes, squash, white potatoes. Non-starchy could be our veggies, uh—broccolis, brussel sprouts cauliflower, kale. Those are our non-starchy. And then basically, we have our high sugar fruit and our low sugar fruit.  High sugar fruit are gonna be more tropical things—bananas, pineapples, mangoes, right? Those kind of things. Then we have our lower sugar fruits— berries green apple, grape fruit passion fruit. Those kind of things. So we try, number one, stay on the non-starchy carbs primarily. And the low sugar fruits. So typically, 1 to 2  servings a day even on an anti-fungal approach is gonna be okay. Some people they go to the excessive and cut everything out but there’s some clinical evidence that these fungal critters may go into the spore-like state where they’re now kinda in  hibernation mode. It may make it harder to kill them. So, we’ll actually have 1 to 2 servings of fruit in there. We may even actually up the carbs even more during the killing to bate them out. We want to wake up that bear so it’s not hiding in its cave  all winter, uh—so we can hunt them down, so to speak.

Evan Brand: That’s a great point.  So if a ketogenic— if a ketogenic diet has been the norm for someone, we may need to bump up carbs a bit, maybe add a little bit of fruit back. And there’s been a lot of demonizing of fruit lately, which I’m just not really a fan of that. I think there’s a  lot of value there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Again, it’s all individual. If you’re super over weight, you have  a lot of markers for insulin resistance, your  waist size is greater than 40inches for male, you know, up 20 pounds too much weight on there, then, yeah, that may make more sense to limit it or at least focus on the lower glycemic, low sugar variety, right? Low fructose variety. Maybe  keep  that fructose below 15g a day. That makes sense. But if you’re pretty active and pretty healthy weight, I’m fine with it. Hand—couple of handfuls about a day, that’s not a problem.

Evan Brand: Yup, good. So you mention the diet peace, now, some talk about diet as if he could cure you of these problems. I mean, I don’t  really agree there where if you just follow this Candida diet, all of a sudden your problems are going to go away.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think if someone is like, you know, they’re kinda like dipping their toe in the functional medicine field like, “Is this worth it?” Well, just start with the diet stuff and see how much you get accomplished with that. If someone is having a lot of refined sugar and a lot of refined carbohydrate, right? Remember that line I drew? Refined carbs and then whole food carbs? If they’re having a lot on this side and they cut that out, they may see a significant improvement, which is great. And they may cut the grains out as well, which is great. But uhm—that maybe that last 20 or 30%. Or if there’s a deeper infection, uhm—that will have to be removed as well. So if it’s purely a fungal overgrowth that you may see a good improvement, but there may be some stuff still lingering. If that’s the case, then we got to dig deeper. Put on our clinical hats and you wanna definitely reach out to someone like myself or you, Evan.

 Evan Brand: Yeah. Well said. I guess my point—I wasn’t trying to pass the diet piece. I guess my point is that a lot of people sell these books, promoting certain diets as if you can magically eradicate all of your gut problems. For me I got maybe 80% better so I dealt with IBS for probably 10 years, maybe even 15years. I mean, I had always had irritable bowel problems. Once my diet was better, my gut problems were there, but then when you first took a look at me, you said, “Evan, you’ve got parasites. And that’s something that no matter how much kale and broccoli I ate, I wasn’t going to get rid of parasites.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Or grass-fed meats. Yeah. Exactly. I get that. So, we’re kinda biased because we see a lot of people that already come to us, they got their diet on track and we got to dig  deeper on top of that. So, I get where you’re coming from, for sure.

Evan Brand: Yeah. But the low hanging fruit that is the diet. And then we—we’ve, you know, Justin and I often have people that come to us that have been doing like a Paleo template or even like uh—autoimmune Paleo and they’re still sick and that’s where you say, “Okay, good. You’ve got the diet in place. It has to be in place, perfect.” Now, let’s dig deeper and that’s where we gonna find this other stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent. So we hit the uh—we hit the fungal component of dandruff. We talked about the excessive shedding of the skin on the scalp. You know, a lot of babies have it. It’s called cradle cap or seborrhea dermatitis, tends to be fungal-based. Again, with my kiddo, or just really giving just real, good-quality breastmilk, but also what the mom eats has a huge effect on the breast milk.

So my wife has kinda have a good Paleo template, really on point. We give our kid probiotics as well. He gets the infant strain probiotic. I know your daughter did the same thing as well, which helps a lot, too. And surprisingly, our baby’s had you know, zero acid reflux, zero spit up. So I think that that’s really made a big difference as well.

Evan Brand: Cool. That’s awesome. Yeah. So mom’s listening, this could apply to babies, too. Now, do you have any evidence on this? Like a mom passing a yeast or a fungus overgrowth to the baby via breastmilk? I’ve heard that was Lyme’s disease and co-infections, you know, the spirochetes can pass through the breast milk but I just wonder about you know, the yeast. Could you pass a yeast through the breastmilk?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, that may or may not be the case. I’m not really sure. There may be some data on that. Uh—my biggest concern is a lot of the infants that are gonna be fed formula, if you look at a lot of the ingredients, it’s about 50% high fructose corn syrup.

Evan Brand: Oh, God.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you look at the amount of sugar that’s in a lot of these uhm—formulas, it’s the same amount that’s in a Coke.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You just gotta be careful because that’s not really the best thing for your child. And then a lot of it is gonna be GMO, too. And there’s evidence of uh— Mercury on getting into a lot of these high fructose compounds due to the extraction process. That’s not good either.

Evan Brand: Wow. So I’ve talked with a couple practitioners who do like a microscope—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: When you look at the blood and they’ve seen little—little balls of yeast basically in the serum of the blood. So I just wonder, “Huh, wonder if any of that actually gets into the system where— where mom pass it to the baby or not.” Well, I have to keep asking, keep digging. That is just my curiosity, but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think it’s a really great question here. And I’ve I think clinically, it makes sense. I see a lot of women that have poor gut issues and their child can get it.  You know, they’ll get thrush with that white coating, so to speak. And they’ll get kind of a yeast issue where they get a lot of kind of a diaper rash stuff and that can happen as well. Like with our child, we’ve had no real yeast issues not even any diaper rash. We just kinda—like a couple of times, my wife will put a little bit of coconut oil there. We have some natural stuff. Yeah, we put there. But outside of that, he’s—you know, my son Aidan has been doing great on that side of the fence.

Evan Brand: That’s great. All right, so we hit the diet piece, we talked about antibiotics as a potential problem leading up to this. I would say birth control pills could be a factor, too. I’ve have had a lot of women— I don’t know the exact correlation or causation. I don’t know if that’s doing something with progesterone and estrogen that—that’s causing the dandruff for what it is. Do you have a take on that of why  birth control pills could be a factor?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Birth control pills have an effect of alkalizing. So we can alkalize the urinary track. It has effect in alkalizing the guts and fungus likes to be more in an alkaline environment. And now everyone’s like “alkalize your diet” right? Well, a lot of these bacteria and we’ll just say fungus’s and bacteria, they like more alkaline environments. If you look at what probiotics do, probiotics actually add acidic load to the intestines. Like if you look at acidophilus, it literally translates to acid loving or acid producing. If you look at a lot of the really good fermentable drinks, a lot of them are very high in various acids, whether it’s glucuronic acid or uhm—

Evan Brand: Acetic acid.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Acetic acid, which is the main acid in apple cider vinegar and it’s not a surprise that acids like apple cider vinegar are used to treat fungal issues in the hair or they’re used to treat UTI issues as well. People will then utilize the Apple cider vinegar before meal to help with digestion and also acidify the urinary tract, too. So, a lot of these things are very helpful to decrease the critters and it changes the environment in the gut. So, good probiotics actually spit out more CO2, right? They spit out more of these really good acids to help get the gut into an environment PH wise with these critters can’t thrive, so to speak.

Evan Brand: Ahh. Okay, got it. Yes. So birth control pills, the antibiotics, maybe the prescription Diflucan’s or other prescription antifungals that you could’ve been on before making these strains more resistant. We talked about the sugar in the diet we talked about the gun infections, looking into those for bacteria and yeast fungus, parasites, getting your gut check with functional testing, not conventional testing. We talked about getting the urine organic acids for looking into the yeast and measuring it that way because stool test often gives us a false negative.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We may even look at blood, too. We may look at candida antibodies like IgA, IgG, IgM. We may see those on the higher side, which could just mean there’s more of a systemic issue. And it’s nice to know because if we don’t have any gut stuff going on or we don’t even see any organic acids stuff, you know, typically, you’ll see some organic acid. You’ll see the D-arabinose there.

Evan Brand: Yeah. So what do you say to a person when they say, “Oh, Justin, can I just go buy a bunch of herbs and just start randomly throwing stuff from the kitchen sink at this problem and see if it works?”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, the bigger issue is most people that have these symptoms, they have a whole bunch of other things, too. It’s very rare that you’re like, “Oh, my only chief issue is dandruff.” Or some kind of fungal issue, right? It’s mood, energy, sleep. If you’re female, there’s probably some cycle imbalances, whether it’s menstruation issues or mood issues or breast tenderness, back pain. Whatever’s happening there and then you have this. So there’s a constellation of the different things happening. And body systems, they function and dysfunction together. So, imagine a beautiful orchestra going, right? And one instrument starts going off. Let’s call that one instrument our fungal overgrowth or uhm— our scalp kind of a dandruff issue, right? That’s our one symptom. That’s our one imbalance. Well, it doesn’t take long before the rest of the orchestra starts singing out of tune as well.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that’s what I’m referring to when we talk about the other hormonal issues that go out of balance. And then when we start having gut issues, then we can start having more leaky gut, which then can create more immune stress, then we can have more malabsorption and low stomach acid and enzymes and nutrient deficiencies, which then affect neurotransmitters and other hormone pathways. So you can see how this thing can really spiral out of control pretty fast. So, that’s why it’s good always digging deeper to really get a good body system audit of all the other things that are happening.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. I’m so glad you—you said it so eloquently. I did a rant at the end of my podcast that I put up last week and I just told people like, “Look, please, don’t wait until you hit rock bottom. Don’t wait until every body system is falling apart and then you reach out.” Like you and I work with those complex cases all the time. But if you’ve got one thing like it’s anxiety or little bit of depression or little bitt of gut issues or little bit of skin issues, it’s so much better to start getting tested and start digging deep then, as opposed to waiting until you’re symptoms list is 20 pages long. You’ve been suffering for 20 years, then you hit rock bottom, then you decide you want to get better. I’ll tell you, it will save people a lot of money and a lot of suffering if once you see these problems a little tip the iceberg poking out, address it, then don’t wait until like you said you’ve got anxiety, depression, PMS, irritability, mood swings, rage, poor sleep and dandruff to top it all off.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent.

Evan Brand: Please. And that’s not even to benefit us. It’s to benefit you. You know, we’ve been so booked up that we aren’t necessarily begging you, “Hey, please come see us.” It’s not like that. It’s the fact that, “Hey, look, I just want to save you some suffering and save you some time.” Justin and I came from our own health journeys as well and if we could just give you one piece of advice and maybe I’m not speaking for him, so I’ll let Justin give his— his feedback, too. But If I could  say one thing, it would be if you’ve got a weird symptom, there’s probably some other stuff going on that you just have to find and fix.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent.

Evan Brand: Like me, I had to wait until I’d lost about 25 pounds. I had terrible sleep. I woke up, I wasn’t feeling rested. I had a lot of stress. I had some anxiety problems even to the point of a panic attack. I called Justin up one day, “man, my heart’s beating out of my chest. I can’t stop my heart.” You’re like, “Well, how much stress do you got going on? I was like, “ a lot” And he’s like, “how are you sleeping?” I’m like, “haven’t been sleeping very well” and then he’s like, “what’s going on with your gut?” and I was like, “Oh my Lord, every body system is affected” My gut has been affected, my brain, my stress response is broken. I was like, “this ain’t even me, I’m even an anxious person. What’s going on?” And you go, “Oh, it’s parasites, Evan.” So, for me, I had to learn the hard way. I had to wait until my symptoms piled up so much that I was falling apart to then fix it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent agreed. I think we’re at that the point in our careers where we realize that there’s probably uh— more people out there that we see online with the you know, the millions of downloads we get every few months, that were not gonna be able to help anyone— everyone, so to speak. And there’s just too many people out there to help that— you know, we really want to put as much free content out there and if we can just get most of the people to just apply the free stuff, that is going to be huge. And we’re gonna make a huge difference in the world just by itself.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think we’re really just getting really good actionable information and I think the key thing I want to push to everyone listening, if you can walk away with just one action item, “Hey, I’m gonna do this.” or “I’m gonna add this component.” or “I’m gonna add this diet shift or this lifestyle change, or this supplement change” I think that you’re gonna make yourself better and healthier after every podcast.

Evan Brand: Agreed. Cool. Do you want to hit some questions for a few minutes?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. We’ve got some questions.

Evan Brand: Okay, cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Everyone writing questions, if you can kinda keep the questions framed towards the conversation, I mean, you know, you can kinda do a little politician pivot where you’re like, “Hey, dandruff” and then you’re on adrenals, right? We could kinda do that, so to speak. But I’m just trying to keep it connected to what we’re talking about as possible. If it’s so disconnected, we’re just gonna have to skip over the question.

Evan Brand: Yup, yup. Well said. Okay. Yes. So a lot of those were like off-subject questions. Let’s see.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I got one here about—let me see, I’ve got Gerald’s question here. Gerald was on my G.I. Clear 2, positive for H. pylori. I feel like it’s returned. If add Masika to the G.I. Clear 2 what dose should I take per day? Typically, two caps TID, two caps, three times a day and we need to retest, Gerald. Make sure the infection is gone. Make sure there’s no residual infections. We want to look a little bit deeper to at your partner or any dogs or pets in the house. Uhm— partner for sure is the easy one because that can, you know, you can go get that reinfected back and forth. So we need you to retest and then do GI Clear2 and the pure Masika, 2 caps TID and get that retested.

Evan Brand: Well said. Yeah. I had that a few weeks ago. A lady, she said, “I feel like my—my gut’s backtracked. I got off your herb. So, what’s going on?” and I said, “Well, now it’s time to test your partner. And sure enough, there is the H. pylori.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Evan Brand: That’s why she’s been getting re-infected. It took three rounds to get rid of it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: Alright, let’s go over to the next one here. There was one from Ovi. We’ll call it uh—I don’t know how to pronounce that full name. “Any tips on reducing hair loss and thrush when coming off of HRT as a female?”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So— that would be helpful to know. I mean, imagine, I’m just coming guessing this is menopausal female, okay? So, you know 53-54 and up. So depending on kinda where the hormonal imbalance is, it’d be good to know if there is an estrogen dominance present or if we’re just having low estrogen and low progesterone and everything’s kinda in the tank. So, typically, when I think hair loss, though, I’m leaning more on the thyroid side. So, I’d want to know where the female hormones are at or if you’re cycling or not. So, if you want to comment on that, that’d be helpful. Uh— number two, really looking at the thyroid component because the thyroid has a huge effect on the hair follicles, stimulating the hair follicle to grow.  And then number three is the gut component because that’s where we digest and break down a lot of the nutrients and amino acids and fatty acids that become the building blocks for our hair. So I want to look at those three places first.

Evan Brand: Well said. So I’d also add on looking at ferritin levels, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: See if there’s some type of anemia problem. You hit the thyroid so in—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And when I say thyroid, though, that includes all that consolation because iron is very important for making thyroid hormone, so if you have a history, if it’s menopausal female and she’s not vegetarian or vegan, doesn’t have a history of endometriosis or fibroids or excessive menses, it’s probably not an iron issue.

Evan Brand: Good. Good. And then when you talk about the thyroids, too, so this is also including the antibody. So make it sure that there’s no Hashimoto’s at play coz we see that a lot. Justin and I find that many people with autoimmune thyroid, the hair, like nine times out of 10 it’s a problem.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. Exactly. We’ll add in collagen peptides, too. Just this collagen is uh—it’s just great. It’s a great building block and then if it’s in peptide form, it’s already super easy to digest. So, give a little plug for my Tru Collagen on that one.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Check it out. Alright. Gerald had a follow-up question for second round of H. pylori eradication, should it be a 30 day protocol or 60 days?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Typically, a minimum 30. You can’t go wrong with just a 30. It just depends on what other infections were present along with that, but if it’s just the H. pylori, let’s say 30—30 to 45 is typically good.

Evan Brand: Yup. Nice. Alright. Mossimo had a question here, “Are sustained-release essential oils and herbs necessary as opposed to the liquid oil taken internally? It’s kind of a confusing question. I didn’t know there was such thing as a sustained-release essential oil, but what were talking about for this conversation would’ve been like a topical. So like Justin mentioned about those brands of the tea tree oil shampoos and such—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand:  That would just be a couple of drops on the scalp. Use some type of Jojoba or avocado or coconut oil.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And try to dilute that so it doesn’t burn your scalp.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. In my line, we have GI Clear5, which is an emulsified form of oregano. That is more enterically coated. So it does open up more in the small intestine than the stomach. A lot of the fungal issues tend to be more on the stomach. I’m sorry—

Evan Brand: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It tends to be more in the small intestine. H. pylori more in the stomach. Evan Brand: Yeah. I forgot about the—the oregano oils.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: I guess when I read essential oils, I was thinking just like your standard oils that you diffuse.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s why I’d like to have some of my, you know, oils or some of my herbs taken on an empty stomach just so it can get fully out of the stomach into the small intestine where it can really help. It and really help can be little more effective.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Alright. So, Samuel had a question. “What’s your take on taking CBD with no THC for inflammation? I take it for the first time and noticed a huge difference in relaxation.” I’ll hit this one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: I’m a huge fan. I just posted a YouTube video. If you haven’t checked it out, look it up, Samuel. I went to uh—a hemp form here in Kentucky one of the very few hemp programs that has been approved by the state government. And the guys making super high quality CBD and the guy is— so he used it on his son who is having hundreds of seizures per month and now the kid is like 12 years old and hasn’t had seizures in years just from CBD no THC. I think the THC does have benefit. I hope that there’s a couple of bills that are trying to get through for 2018. I hope we can federally just decriminalize cannabis across the board because I have talked with people, especially in the pain department, where when they add a little bit it of THC in, all the sudden their fibromyalgia or chronic pain does get better, which isn’t achieved just by the CBD by itself. So I think both would be awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I’m not a huge fan of the THC side uhm— I think it can have some really good benefits if you’re going through cancer treatment and have extreme nausea and/or extreme pain and the CBD is not helping enough. I think it can be helpful like if we’re choosing you know, THC over chronic dose of the pain medication or opiate or like a lot ibuprofen, I will definitely reach for the THC component you know, over—over the rest. My biggest thing is just uhm— number one, there’s some potential memory side effects, cognitive side effects. Number two, I would say making sure that you’re not having to incinerate every time, right? Trying to do of a vaporizer or some kind of other medium that’s not involving the incineration, which exposes the poly aromatic hydrocarbons, the heterocyclic ABGs, the carcinogens that are produced. And uh—the CBD obviously is better just because it’s a less psychoactive, but if you can you know— epileptic stuff, autoimmune stuff, anxiety, mood stuff, the CBD for sure. THC more on the—if the CBD is not working and you need the pain or you have a lot of the nausea stuff that may be better.

Evan Brand: Yup. I mean with the THC, I don’t—I mean I’m sure there’s tons of people that still combust, but you really don’t even have to anymore. There are so many different drops and tinctures and potions and such that you don’t have to burn. You don’t have to burn the herbs anymore. And people don’t want to get high, too. So you could do like a 20% CBD like a 1% THC and you’d probably feel really good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. I hate the feeling of being high. I’ve only done it a few times in my life, but I’m tired and I just get the munchies. I’m fatigued and I just get really hungry. It’s like I don’t need that. I want to be energized and alert. And I think a lot of the negative studies on marijuana, too, is number one, you really have to make sure you’re not getting pesticide exposure.

Evan Brand: Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And you have to kind of faired out the burning and the incineration of the leaf.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think if you pick, take those two components out, I think you’ll see a lot of those confounding variables showing negative results in those studies in proof.

Evan Brand: For me, a vaporizer change my life. When I had IBS, the only thing before I knew about by diet changes that help me was a vaporizer. It would slow down my bowels since I was having so much loose stool. It would regulate the bowels better stomach cramps, stomach pains would go away so I had a lot of hands-on experience— super helpful.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Go ahead, I’m sorry.

Evan Brand: I just have to say, I don’t vape anymore currently. One is it’s impossible to find a good source in Kentucky. Now, if I go to Colorado and I could find some good organic, high-quality, I’m gonna take a sample, that’s for sure. But for me, I just— I can’t find a good source here. So I do stick with the—the CBD drops, which is legal, too. You know, it’s another thing. It’s— it’s legal in all 50 states, the CBD is.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And uhm—just kinda –I think a lot of marijuana, maybe not the CBD, because that’s more the— the non-psychoactive. I think a lot of marijuana is used you know, to cover-up emotional stress uhmm—you know to the kind of numb yourself out from whatever’s happening in your life. So we just gotta make sure that you’re not using it to avoid reality, so to speak. But there is a lot of drugs out there that are very dangerous and have a lot of side effects and kill a lot of people. So if we’re choosing marijuana over these drugs that kill a lot, I will always choose the drug that doesn’t have the profile of killing people, right?

Evan Brand: I’ll pick it over alcohol, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: If I had somebody say, “I wanted to drink a bottle wine every night” or “hit the vaporizer, do a couple of drops of a tincture” The alcohol for me is gonna be a bigger problem coz it’s gonna create the leaky gut situation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean if you’re drinking excessively, if you’re having a glass or two and it’s organic, you know, you’re probably fine with that on the alcohol side. But if you’re going you know, four glasses a night and then it’s consistent, yeah, they’ve done studies. I think it was a Giuliani report they looked at like the highest ranked college students in the country and they say you know, what do you prefer, alcohol or marijuana as a drug of choice? And the kids that have the highest grades were choosing the marijuana and their main reason was the hangover. They could wake up the next day and studying, get their work done.

Evan Brand: Makes sense. Let’s see if we have any other on-topic questions here. Do you see any others?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: See here—see, we can find some things that we can connect to our little politician side stepped here.

Evan Brand: Gerald had one, about how do you know if you’re eating too many starchy carbs per week? I— I cycle like it depends on the week and depends on activity level how much I’m gonna do.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean it—I think 50 to 150 is a pretty good place for most people to be. And if you’re doing a lot of lifting or a lot of CrossFit, then you may need to go up to 250. So I think, look at your height and weight. If you’re at a really good height and weight, you’re gonna have more latitude. If you’re lifting a lot of weights, I think you can go up to 150 to 200. If you’re doing Ironmans or like you know, those, then you may have to go way higher than that. So I think you really  just figure out where your activity level is at. Figure out where your height and weight is right now. 50 to 150’s pretty good. And you earn your carbs. So you exercise more, you—and you’re lifting more weights, you can up your carbs a little more and just try to keep it whole food, you’re gonna be fine.

Evan Brand:  Here’s another question about glutamine. Should you take glutamine by itself to repair leaky gut or is it okay to combine with protein?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I mean glutamine is an amino acid, but if you mean like glutamine and then have real whole food protein, yeah, that’s fine. I mean in my line, we use GI Restore, which has glutamine and a bunch of their healing things and glucosamine and we’ll mix that and add in a drink, take it on an empty stomach and then patients will still have you know, a really good whole foods meal. Or we’ll add in the collagen as well which is very high in glycine. And glycine’s really good for the enterosite healing as well. So you can do either glutamine. I’ll typically only do L-glutamine by itself for patients that are very, very sensitive. We’ll typically add the healing compound in there, you know, the GI Restore, the all the other, licorice, aloe, slippery elm, glucosamine, right? Modify—We’ll all those in together and if that’s causing too much sensitivity, then we will do L-glutamine by itself. But they gotta really be sensitive if that’s the case.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And that’s— I find that pretty rare. The glutamine by itself to me, it just doesn’t move the needle as quick as the combo products like you talk about.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Only if there’s an allergy issue. And then, the collagen is great. Glycine’s a really big building block for healthy gut function, too.

Evan Brand: Nice. Bone broth, too. I think that’s another—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That is very high in glycine, too. Yup.

Evan Brand: Cool. I think that was it. There were bunch of other questions, but a lot of these were super off subjects, so I don’t want to distract from the convo too much.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. So—

Evan Brand: The others—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think we kinda hit everything. I want to go off to— you know, off to uhm the kind of the __ James here talks about this just kind of the cost regarding the organic acid test and keeping it low. Typically, if— if you’re trying to keep the cost down with the organics, let’s do the test once a year. You know, do it once a year. Ideally, if you can do it uhm— twice a year, that’s ideal, but if not, you can just do it  once a year. That’s kinda your—your best bet kinda just fine-tune your program once a year with the organics. That’s probably the best way to make it more cost-effective.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. Gerald said that we guys are the best. Change his life. Hey, Gerald, thanks. We appreciate it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uhm—Gerald is actually a patient. Glad we could help, Gerald. That’s very good. And one last question, too. Diana talks about doing a podcast on estrogen dominance and progesterone therapy. Hey, you’re kinda—you’re too late. Check out the podcast’s show notes. We did a podcast on estrogence dominance and we talked about progesterone and __ augmentation programs that we do with progesterone therapy, too. So check out that podcast, Diana.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Go on either uh—Go on Justin’s YouTube. That’s probably the best if it’s posted there or to check out his site Justinhealth and just type in estrogen. You should find it either way.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And if you guys enjoy this right now, the best way you can thank us is give us a thumbs up, post, share on your twitter and/or uhm— Facebook. We love it. We just want to help more people and you notice, it’s a lot of people that are out there podcast people, they either hold information back or all they do is spend oh, you know, 90% of the time promoting their products and affiliates. I think 95% of our time is just free intel. Of course, we got a little plug here and there, but we’re 95% free information because we know there’s too many people out there that need all this info and we’re just gonna be an open book to everyone.

Evan Brand: Yup. Totally. So, we hope it helps. And if you need to reach out, schedule a consult with either of us. For Justin, check out his site. Justinhealth.com You can look up and click the book an appointment button. Myself, same thing. Evanbrand.com Check us out. Stalk us. Study us. Look under every crevice and corner. Read our reviews. We’re here for you. We’re happy to help if you got this issue going on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Leave us comments below. Tell us what you like about the podcast and tell us about future podcast that you want to hear. We’re reading them and we get inspired by those comments below. So say, “Hey, I like this about this podcast and I want to hear something about” And tell us that topic we’ll add it to the queue.

Evan Brand: Yes, sir. Good chatting with you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Everyone, have a great day. Take care.

Evan Brand: Take Care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.

 

 


 

References:

Art Naturals Shampoo

Purely Northwest

Justin Health GI Restore

Justin Health GI Clear 2

Justin Health GI Clear 5

Justin Health TruCollagen

 

Leaky Gut and Autoimmunity – Dr. J. Live Podcast #161

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand dive into a discussion about the link between gut infections and autoimmunity. Gain knowledge about leaky gut, how it occurs in the body and it’s connection to Hashimoto’s.

Explore the different stressors which affect gut health and contribute to a weakened immune system. Learn about Dr. Justin’s 6-hour template, which includes his expert recommendation regarding healing, nutrient and supplements.

In this episode, we cover:Leaky gut and autoimmunity

00:34   Leaky Gut and Autoimmunity Connection

04:05   GABA and the Blood Brain Barrier

06:48   Hashimoto’s and Gut Health

12:23   6-hour Template

22:40   Thyroid Health: T3, T4

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hello, ladies and germs! Dr. J in the house. Evan, how we doing, man? How was your Holidays? How’s your Thanksgiving?

Evan Brand: Holidays were great. Let’s dive in. I know we’ve got a short limited of time. But we’re doing this on the fly because this conversation of gut health and gut infections and autoimmunity is huge and hardly anyone is talking about this. Conventional doctors don’t have a clue about the link between gut infections and autoimmunity, so dude, let’s dive right in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That sounds phenomenal. So we talked about in the show, kinda chatting about leaky gut and autoimmunity, which is really important because leaky gut is kind of like one of the primary mechanisms of autoimmunity kinda starting, which is kind of gastrointestinal permeability cells in the gut called the tight junctions. They start to unzip, kinda like you unzip your coat on a hot day and undigested food particles can get in there in this kind of creates this uhm— cascade of reactions call molecular mimicry, where certain food proteins— the surface proteins on these foods are similar to surface proteins of the thyroid or the brain or the pancreas, the beta—the beta cells of the pancreas, whatever. So you have this kind of immune system getting primed to similar proteins in foods which then prime the immune reaction for the immune system. It starts attacking these tissues in the body. So that’s kinda one of the first defenses is this autoimmunity leaky gut, molecular mimicry and that while they gut’s leaky, you have undigested bacterial compounds also getting in there, too. And then kinda just perpetuate and windup that immune system. And then also make it prime to—for other infections that kind of slip in there because the immune system now has weaken. Other infections can slip in. And typically, we’re gonna have a lower stomach acid environment so you’re gonna have less sterility in the stomach coz that low pH really prevents a lot of bacterial and critters from growing. But now that pH is like, you know, it’s like walking over to the dirty picnic tables and normally you spray it down with maybe some bleach. Or let’s say in a healthy version, maybe a really good antimicrobial essential oil. But now, we don’t have that because of the stress from the gut.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. Now, Hashimoto’s for example, is probably most common autoimmune condition that we’re going to see and deal with and that probably you guys listening are aware of. Leaky gut has to take place for Hashimoto’s to happen. That’s one of the dominoes that happens. So you’ve got the leaky gut situation. You possibly got the gluten in the diet. You got the immune stress, which could be internal or external. So bad boss, bad spouse, bad relationships, bad job— those are kind of the big dominoes we see. And when you all those up together, that’s how you get autoimmune disease. It’s really just that simple.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And then we have people on the live chat here. And again, this is a great reason why you should subscribe to our YouTube channel—justinhealth. Uhm because we have these podcast going live as well and we’ve also incorporated other technology in the background to get a higher quality audio versions. So if you want better audio, you can subscribe to Youtube, but also check out our podcast uhm—Evan Brand, notjustpaleo and then beyond wellness radio myself. So just keep that in the back of your head. And then your question was—I just missed it. We talked about—Oh, yeah! Leaky brain. Leaky brain is connected as well coz we have these live questions coming in. And so we are multitasking like it’s no tomorrow. So leaky brain’s important because we have these called astrocytes or the brain blood or the blood brain barrier which is kind of the interplay between systemic blood and then the passing over to the brain. And we have the cells called astrocytes. And again, same thing, when we have gut lining integrity, it tends to affect integrity of the lungs, integrity of the sinuses, integrity of you know, vaginal wall area, urinary tract. So you have people that have gut issues—gut integrity issues. It almost always can cause sinus issues, brain fog, brain issues, UTI issues, bladder issues, right? So you have all of that mucous membrane barrier, it’s gonna be compromised throughout the body not just the gut. But the guts kind of that first major domino that falls and then everything else tends to follow along with it.

Evan Brand: What you think about the GABA test for the blood brain barrier, where you take like a 500 mg GABA and if it works and you get relaxed, that says you have a leaky brain. Do you agree with that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’m not sure I buy that because I’ve seen people that do—that are really healthy and that do well with GABA.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And they, you know, symptomatically, they’re doing pretty good. They’re eating well. Again, certain supplement companies have kinda put that out where they have a GABA challenge. They say, “Hey, GABA is this really big amino acid compound and it shouldn’t go through that blood brain barrier; therefore if it does, that means your major blood brain barrier is permeable.” I’m not sure I buy that. I think it’s something to keep in mind, something to try. I have a lot of patient that have gut issues and they’re sick and that use GABA or will only give them GABA and they don’t notice much benefit either.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, you know, how do you sparse that? That’s hard.

Evan Brand: I know. Who knows, man. That’s a good question.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Everyone tries to be a little bit trendy and nuance in this functional medicine field.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Because they wanna make a name for themselves.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And I get that from a marketing perspective, but just looking at the clinical application, I’m not sure there’s ton.  But, heck, if you have GABA and you want to try it and you get uh—benefits, that’s great. I notice a little bit of improvement with GABA. Like when I take it, I feel little but relax. I also do that with Ashwagandha as well. I feel it with magnesium. Someone chimed in and asked if magnesium can be taken with Ashwagandha. Yeah, sure. I’ve no problem with that.

Evan Brand: Works great.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hope everyone’s listening had a great Thanksgiving, too.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Tesa wants to know, “Have you reversed your Hashimoto’s, Dr. J, by healing the gut?”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, so we have to be careful when we say reversed, right? So have we decrease the inflammation? Have we address underlying issues that made people susceptible to having autoimmune attack? And we—can we lessen those and decrease them to the point where we are no longer symptomatic because we have the inflammation down or quench enough? Yes. I’m just very careful because you know, eyes in the skies and people listening in they’re— they’re looking for that the cure the cure-all word, right? We just got to be careful. We don’t cure anything. We support the body’s ability to—we support the underlying stressors that cause the issue to begin with. And we support the underlying systems that weren’t functioning well. And then the body can start to get these symptoms under control because the symptoms are just a manifestation of the symptoms— the systems not working. Symptoms occur because systems aren’t working. Systems breakdown because of underlying stressors. As functional medicine doctors, we come in, we fixed the underlying stressors, we support the systems that aren’t working and then the body starts to heal itself, right? The body’s on autopilot. We just got to get the stressors in the systems work. If the system’s working, then get the stressors out of the way.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. So you had some— you had some gut bugs and things going on, do you care to talk about your story for a minute with the – Hashimoto’s?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I have—I have a low level of Hashimoto’s kinda in the background, I had elevation antibodies TPO and thyroglobulin antibodies and you know, I had some adrenal stress going on. And I just really worked on fixing the gut issues, which I had a handful parasites—Blasto, uhm— yeast, significant yeast overgrowth and H. pylori. Addressing those, fixing nutrient issues to help with the antibodies, fixing the digestion, fixing gut bacteria balance is of course working on stress reduction, sleep, all those important diet and lifestyle things. And again, the antibodies for me are just still slightly elevated, but there they’re in a range where you know, functionally my thyroid is not beaten up to the point where I need any thyroid hormone. My TSH is in a pretty good place and my T3 levels are pretty good. I actually have to go on for test real soon. So, yeah, I mean it’s possible to—to address the stressors and the system dysfunction to the point where you may not— you can call yourself cure. We just won’t call you cure for me, a functional medicine perspective.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Agreed. I need to get my thyroid panel run to. You’ve been pushing me to do it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. You should.

Evan Brand: I need to do it. I mean you and I both have had these infections. I had H. pylori as well. I had a Crypto, Giardia and yeast and Pseudomonas Aeruginosa.  So, you know, that’s a fun thing about Justin and I. We both had all the things that we deal with in the clinic. So when you guys are looking to work with somebody, it’s— to me it’s a lot more honorable if you’ve had somebody that’s been in the trenches themselves, where we had to fix us to keep going to help other people. I think that’s always pretty cool. Uhm— what else I know we would have limited time, but what else should we mention here about kinda this autoimmunity piece, the gut piece. We mentioned the leaky gut, we mentioned some of the triggers just in a roundabout way. So Candida, bacterial infections, parasites, H. pylori, low stomach acid, gluten in the diet, dairy, possibly eggs, other food sensitivities. These could all contribute to that permeation of the gut barrier; therefore, causing the situation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred Percent. So, let me just kind of answer some of the things that you’re talking about while injecting some of the live questions we get. That’s the reason why the show is so unique compared to other shows coz we are off-the-cuff. This is the real deal here. So some patients are talking about having a lot of mucusy stools, right? And uhm— wanting to know where they should go for help, right? Of course, I recommend coming to see either myself or Evan, but typically one, we want to make sure food allergens aren’t driving this, right? Number two, we want to make sure we have enough digestive support on board to help those foods be broken down enough. So if there’s fat maldigestion issues, of course, adding in more bile salts or more lipolytic enzyme, right? Lipase— things like that. Uh— protease—proteolytic enzymes, right? These are all really important. And then, of course, once we can have the deck kinda dialed in, if foods are still a problem even with that, we may make them more palatable. We may go with more crockpot kinda GAP specific carbohydrate kind of eating template, where the foods are just easy—more processed via cooking, they aren’t raw, they are peeled or mashed. We’re decreasing salicylates and phenols and potential gut irritants so those foods can be consumed better. And then, of course, we’re gonna look deeper at the hormones because hormones have a major effect on inflammation and energy. And a lot of people that have gut issues, their guts are inflamed, we have to support the inflammation of the gut lining. And then, the big one is getting rid of the infections.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that’s where you know, we’re probably go next.

Evan Brand: (laughs) Yes. You’re right. So uh—Cent50 here, who asked the question. Yeah, the loose, mushy stools, I mean that was me. I had Cryptosporidium, I had Giardia, I had H. Pylori, I had bacterial overgrowth. Until my gut issues were addressed, just FYI, I had IBS for 10 or 15 years of my life and conventional doctors had no solutions for my—my stools. And it wasn’t until actually cleared out the infections that my bowels and my stools became normal again. And so, yeah, you got to get yourself tested. Justin and I run several different companies. Uh—stool testing just depending on you know what—what we’re looking at. But, yeah, get a comprehensive stool test. Your conventional doctor may be able to order through your insurance, if you tell them you want diagnostic solutions Lab, it’s unlikely. You probably have a functional medicine guy like us to run it for you. But either way, once you get the diagnostic tool, you can fix this pretty quick.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: There’s a lot of healing nutrients. So like, when we work with the patient, we kinda follow that 6-hour template— template that I’ve created over the last decade or so. There’s a lot of ones that are out there— three hours, four hours. In my opinion, a lot of them stink and they’re the wrong order. So the six that I’ve created and began to follow as well, in my opinion, is the exact clinical order which I follow things. So the first hour is removing the bad foods. And again, it’s not cookie-cutter because that maybe just getting someone from a standard American diet to a Paleo template. That may be taking someone from a Paleo template to an autoimmune template. Maybe someone on an autoimmune template and the Paleo template taking them to a GAPs or specific carbohydrate diet or low FODMAP template. I had patient last week who’s been Paleo for three or four years—chronic pain, chronic issues, chronic mood issues, chronic sleep issues. We took him from a Paleo template to an autoimmune-Paleo template and all of the symptoms went away in one week.

Evan Brand: That’s it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: This is someone that’s like already been on point for a long time and we just pulled out a few foods. So we have those— that kind of progression because you’d be surprised, the smallest things that we do have a huge effect. And it’s like, whoa! you would’ve thought I would have created the awesomeness protocol ever and found a you know, this hidden infection that everyone missed and got rid of it for that kind of improvement to happen. But sometimes it happens, we’re just removing some food. So, first, I remove the foods, second, I replace enzymes, acids, digestive support, bile salts, too. Third hour is gonna be repairing the gut lining. It could be also repairing the thyroid and adrenals and sex hormones, too. Fourth hour is removing infections. That’s where we go after— bacteria, parasites, uhm—fungal overgrowth. Those kinda things. We may even go after co-infections future podcast on that soon enough. Fifth hour, repopulating or reinoculating probotics. Some of these nice and beneficial bacteria. They’re transient. They only hang out for a month or so and pass on. So, getting some of that it in there periodically is helpful. Sixth hour is retest. We want to make sure infections are gone. And maybe even address family members too to make sure they are not being passed back and forth you know, playing hot potato.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. Riley asked a question about—he said, “Evan is your IBS completely healed now after addressing anything?” Uhmm—kind of a confusing question about addressing anything. Yeah, I don’t have IBS anymore. I’m infection free, no more H. pylori, no more parasites, no more bacterial overgrowth, no more yeast overgrowth and I feel good and feel completely normal, which was an amazing thing because after so long, you know, it took me to be so long to get here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And with your situation, right? Like if you start eating bad foods again and your immune system got compromised, you may have another critter or two that pops back. You may have some inflammation from the food and such. And then those symptoms, they start coming back, right? So it’s not like a cure, like, “Hey, you have scurvy. Here’s vitamin C.” And then as long as the vitamin C is there, you’re good forever, right? It’s like, “Hey, there may be other stressors that may cause the systems to weaken again and those IBS symptoms start to occur, right?”

Evan Brand: Oh, Totally! Yeah. I mean I could go— I could go out to a restaurant and get some type of contaminated food and all the sudden creates a leaky gut situation. Maybe I pick up a gut bug, maybe I was eating while stressed during a week and I didn’t chew my food good. And then I picked up a parasite and have to start all over again. So, yeah, definitely, you know, you could always backtrack. You’re—you’re never permanently in a good place.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And again, one thing I see out there on Facebook, and I see it marketed, and it’s–  I have to call—I’m not  gonna call anyone out directly—

Evan Brand: No, come on. Do it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ll call out the concept. But lots of people, they’re like, “You gotta heal leaky gut. Here’s a gut healing program.”

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And if you look at it, a lot of times, you know, it’s bone broth or just a lot of healing nutrients and a lot of probiotics, right? And maybe a little diet change. But if we go look at the six hours, what are they really doing? They’re doing the third hour, maybe a little bit of the first, maybe a little bit of the second, maybe a little bit of the fifth, right? They’re kinda skipping around. They don’t have a system and how it’s being integrated a lot of times. And I would say 99% of the time, it ignores going after and getting the infections fixed. Totally ignores it. Because you know, these people are recommending a general program to like thousand people at once in a huge kind of a webinar kind of style, right? Well, how do you get all the types of testing and customize everything in that format? You can’t. So it’s a very general kinda overview approach. And in my opinion, it’s going help some people, which I think is great. It’s admirable. But it’s also gonna  a miss a lot of people and those people that don’t get help may lose faith in functional medicine or say, “This is not for me.” So I’m just kinda calling that out because think about it, right? If the root cause of what’s going on is an infection component and you’re doing let’s say the first, second, third, fifth alright but you’re not getting rid of the infection. Well that’s like me giving you this healing aloe, right? You get a sunburn, you come back from the beach, I give you this aloe, right? The underlying cause of the sunburn is the— is the sun. And then you go back out the next day and you get sunburned again and I just give you more aloe. That’s the equivalent of what a lot of these people are doing. Well, just have some more bone broth, have some more of glutamine, have some more of this healing compound for your gut lining. So we got to get to the root cause. A lot of people are just being very general out there. And you know, the listeners of our show will get it and say, “Hey, I see that the missing piece there.” And that’s why we have those six hours that way coz then you can look at it and you can say, “Hey, this is a really specific way we go about addressing things here.”

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well said, man. And that’s the food is medicine, people. And we love the food as medicine people, but that’s why you know, we pursued functional medicine because the food is just the first step, right? It’s just one pillar of the house. It’s not gonna hold the house by itself as a single column. And also, I want to mention the order—the order of operations. If somebody just go straight to bone broth and probiotics and L-glutamine, that’s the wrong order. And sometimes people get worse. They’ll come to us and say, “Oh, Justin and Evan—“

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Evan Brand: “I took XYZ probiotics coz I heard it on a podcast or a blog and I felt terrible and I had a flare up of my condition. Can you explain what happened?” Yes, if things are just terrible in the gut,. sometimes you have to hit the reset button. You can’t immediately just add in all these probiotics and expect it to work. Sometimes we have to fix the balance first and eradicate the bad guys before the good guys can come back in.  So that’s why the order of operation is just a second when Justin said it’s so important. And this may explain why you’re spinning your wheels even though you’re all—you’re doing everything about the Paleo gurus are saying to do.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. We just want to make sure everyone’s educated. I mean, we have some people out here, they’re chiming about, “Hey, I really want a functional medicine doctor but I don’t have the—the money for it.” Well, guess what? The best thing that you can do right now is be listening to our podcast coz all this information is free.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We’re providing tens and thousands of dollars for free information off of people and I get messages all the time. “Hey, made a couple of these changes or recommendations and my autoimmune condition for 10 years is gone.” Right? I didn’t cure him.  I promise. I didn’t cure him, right? The body just heals itself, right? We got to say that as our disclaimer. But that’s you know, what’s that worth. When someone is you know, seeing a rheumatologist for 20 years on lots of expensive medication that’s tearing up their gut and their body and creating more symptoms than they’re actually helping. What’s that worth? So just utilize the pickup as much of the free intel as much as possible. And then you know, allocate some savings or HSA or flex spending. So if you want to dig in deeper, that’s an option. But utilize as much of the free stuff as possible because the diet is the foundation.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 50% is gonna be the diet so work on that first. Once you max that out, and you’re seeing some decent results, then you’d want to go in deeper. You can reach out, for sure.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And you can contact likely so. You can contact your conventional doc and try to get some stuff run through insurance. But it’s likely that they don’t have accounts with these functional labs and they likely just aren’t going to do it. Fut if you’re really lucky, you’ve got a really good M.D., you may be able to push push push push at least get the lab so you have the data. Now what you do with the data? Well then maybe that’s where you come to a functional medicine guy that can help in terms of creating a protocol. But getting the data should not be impossible.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And a lot of functional medicine docs that do a podcast or websites, I find that they take information, they wrap it up and they try to make people feel so confused where they walk away from the podcast or the video, being like, “What the hell just happened? What I do now ?” And they walk away feeling less certain. I want to make sure no one walks away from any podcast or video I do, gaining more certainty. And at least walking away with one action item that they can add into the repertoire of whether it’s a lifestyle or a supplement or just a different perspective on the6 hoir healing so they get better and they feel more confident.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I watch a couple of functional medicine videos like over the weekend and they were like hour-long videos I made it through 10 minutes. And I thought, “This is not gonna help me at all.” So I decided to turn it off. So let’s do it, let’s do our action steps and summary here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So of course, we have our six hours, right? So everyone listening kind of our general feedback is gonna be a Paleo autoimmune template to start. And again, depending on where you’re at, that maybe really a lot of— really overwhelming for you, cutting out grains, legumes, dairy and primarily having healthy fats, proteins, uhm more veggies and fruit instead of starch. And having healthy fats like you know, if we’re doing a Paleo, maybe a little butter or ghee. If we’re going fully AIP, no nuts, no seeds, no dairy. Just coconut, Olive oil, may be avocado oil, some healthy animal fats. And that will be a good starting point for people. And then again, an AIP or an SCD or autoimmune diet, again, I’m just kinda laying out the Paleo template to start coz that’s probably the easiest buy in without pre qualifying anyone. I would say that after that, at least getting some digestive support going there. And again, you know, the ones that we formulated, we recommend the most coz we’ve put our stamp of approval. High-quality HCl or enzymes. In my line, it’s HCl supreme or enzyme synergy or I’ll add in the liver supreme for extra bile support for digest energy. And Evans line—Evan has a similar products as well. Uhm— so that’s a good starting point there. And then seeing where you’re at, I think is the next step coz there may be infections, there may be other testing that has to go in deeper. So I think if you can get that, that’s number one. And then I think if you can just make sure the hydration component and the sleep component is dialed in next, that’s a good second step. And that gives most people of really good you know, path to go down and if people are listening, they’ve already done that and they’re like, “what’s next?” well, that’s where I think you’d want to reach out and do a little bit more testing because that’s what I think the infection component and/or the hormone component and/or the nutriend malabsorption component from the infection could be the next vector we’d really have to put up in our sites, so to speak.

Evan Brand: I’m gonna address one comment here and then I’ll bring up a question then we could uh—we could wrap it up. Leslie mentioned the diet’s the foundation which kinda sucks no more pigging out in the middle of the night. The good thing is that could be related to infections. I mean for me, for example, when I had parasites, I would get these food cravings that just didn’t make sense and it wasn’t me. It’s these bugs. They are stealing your nutrients, they want food so they’re cannibalizing your muscle tissue and when you’re eating, they’re messing up your ability to digest especially coz I had H. pylori. My stomach acid levels were lower. I was basically hungry all the time and I was losing weight. Getting to like a scary point of weight loss. So really, the diet is not too hard once you just address your gut bugs, that— the whole like binging type thing on food, it really doesn’t happen once your gut is healed, once your adrenals and your thyroid are helped out and your blood sugar’s more stable. It’s not an issue. I mean you could fasted for a long time and feel stable. You shouldn’t have to get hungry or go on a crisis stage. Justin, a question for you. Uh—some doctors say T3 doesn’t matter; they don’t test it on Thyroid labs. The person’s taking T3 now slowly increasing. Would you be lowering T4 when adding this?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, I would typically be adding more than likely a T4, T3 put together so there’s gonna be a combination of both. Most doctors don’t care about uhm—T3 because the major pharmaceutical companies, Abbott’s the big one, that has a patent on Synthroid is a synthetic T4. It’s easier to monitor uhm— giving a T4 the half-life’s five days, so it’s really easy. It’s not like a T3, which could potentially have more side effects. Uhm—and it’s patentable, right? It’s the basically tetraiodothyronine with the sodium salt on it. So that’s how they get the patent to it. Uhm—again, they don’t m__ it because that’s just not what they do. They give you the T4, they get the TSH back in range. All your thyroid symptoms could still be present. Cold hands, cold feet, anxiety, mood issues, hair thinning, you know, gut here fitting things you know, gut stuff, constipation all could still be there, but if the TSH is in range, they’re happy. They checked off the list, you’re gone. So that’s where you got a dig in deeper. You got a look at the T4, T3 conversion. You got to look at the autoimmunity. You got a look at the nutrients. You gotta look at the adrenal conversion, the gut conversion connection and the liver detox conversion connection, too.

Evan Brand: Yup. Yup. Should you ignore TSH? No. It’s definitely worth factoring TSH in. You just don’t want to use that as the end-all be-all only marker. But you— but when you have the free T3 and the reverse T3, the TPO, the TG antibodies kinda all the stuff we run, the TSH makes a lot more sense when you got a full picture.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. We like to keep TSH in the equation and look at sometimes people come in with the TSH that’s perfect, but their T4 T3 conversion sucks. And then what do you do? You know when you’re treating the TSH or are you treating the actual patient? So we’ll try to increase thyroid hormones, see if symptoms change and we’ll try to support HPT access communication with specific herbs. And of course, stress modulation and getting infections— getting rid of infections coz that can really mess up the HPT access, the Hypothalamus Pituitary Thyroid connection.

Evan Brand: Yup. For sure. Uh—Leslie and a couple other comments about you know, where to go next? Well, I mean, you know, if people may say, “Oh, we’re biased.” But the answer is get tested. Our philosophy is “Test, don’t guess.” So if you’re confused, you’ve got symptoms that don’t make sense, get tested. That’s the first step. You can look at adrenals, thyroid, gut, get all the puzzle pieces laid on the table. That way you’re not just buying random supplements that you might not actually need. We’ve seen so many people with 20 and 30 supplements that they’re taking and they still feel terrible. And we cut that down to five supplements because it’s based on labs and all of a sudden people get better. So you know, save up your money for that. Maybe you don’t go buy the next newest supplement you hear about. Maybe you— you focus on investing into some testing first.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: And you can check it out on Justin’s site. It’s Justinhealth.com You can look at the supplements, the labs on there. Same thing on my site, Evanbrand.com and we’re happy to help. So, feel free to reach out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And also, couple of people asked about Dr. Gundry’s The Low Lectin Protocol. I think it’s the plant paradox. Again, my thing is if you’re just going to a Paleo template, you’re gonna cut a lot of those lectins out. If you actually cook some of the plants, some of the starches,  some of the vegetables and lower the lectins even more, if you still have a lot of gut issues, upgrading it to an autoimmune protocol, you decrease lectins more. If we still have issues and we can move to a specific carbohydrate or GAPS protocol and we decrease lectins even more. So it just depends on where you’re at cooking knocks a great chunk of that out and just going to a Paleo template, where we’re cutting out grains, legumes, dairy and focusing more on non-starchy veg, uhm— lower glycemic, low sugar fruits and safe starches that aren’t grain-based, you’re gonna have a huge effect and grains, where most of the lectins and irritants come from. So again, that— my opinion matches people making things a little bit more complicated than they have to be.

Evan Brand: Marketing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: I mean, he’s done a good job that book is spread.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. It has gone viral. Everyone asked me about it all the time. I can’t get a go of a— one day without a patient asking me about it. So I have to follow it. I think I found it on fast reads on Amazon. So I got a—like uhm—abridged version of it that I’m siphoning through.

Evan Brand: Nice.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ve got a couple of services where they do these summaries. And it’a great.  I mean I get 90% of the information.

Evan Brand: Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Suck it up in a half hour and I’m like, “Oop, got it!” That’s it. On to the next one. Well, any other questions you wanted to answer here, Evan?

Evan Brand: I think that’s everything. I think that’s all we can—we can chat on today and we’re gonna do a podcast soon on co-infections. We’re gonna talk about Lyme, Bartonella and Babesia Uh—Justin and I, I mean, we’ve literally got the books like right here that we’re—we’re diving into.  We wanna make sure we’re the most educated and current up-to-date with our information before we broadcast to you guys. So make sure you hit subscribe on Justin’s YouTube channel while you’re at, hit subscribe. And uh—we’ll be back again soon.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And one last thing. Patient asked here—person asked here on the chat list, uhm—“How do you—how do you choose your functional medicine doctor? How do you trust them?” He said, “I can’t trust them. How do I choose them?” Well, number one, I think they should have some kind of content out there whether its video, audio and/or blog post where you resonate with their information. Like their philosophy, their information, you should resonate. I find most patients are the biggest reason why they don’t get better is because, number one, compliance, and number two, they’ve been burnt and the past or they failed in the past and therefore they’re kind of priming their subconscious to fail again. So they don’t follow through and they’re off to the next one other, you know, they’re making a 180 move in can’t see someone else because some little thing happened. They’re not following through enough. So I think keeping—one, making sure you choose someone based on their philosophy and the information and making sure you resonate at an emotional level and just a logical level. Here’s the plan, generally speaking, right? And then number two, making sure you’ve given enough time and then follow through uh—for it to work.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. I’ll address— address this last question, then we’ll roll here. Uh—Is it common to have to go through a few rounds of infection killing protocols? Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It can.

Evan Brand: You can. It took me a couple of rounds to go through, some herbs to knockout things coz I have multiple infections. When you’re trying to kill five or six or seven things at once, yeah. I can’t take multiple rounds. Why is that? Depends on the person’s immune system health or stress levels, how long they’ve had infections, the amount of damage that’s there, how much inflammation is there, are they sleeping well, do they have a good diet. You know, there’s million factors to answer why that— why that could be. Hope that helps.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great.

Evan Brand: Andrea is asking a question about his father’s prostate cancer. PSA levels are rising rapidly. Can we cast opinions or advice?

Evan Brand: I can’t. Justin?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s about thyroid, it’s about uhm— prostate issues?

Evan Brand: Yeah. Prostate. Prostate cancer this drug—Enzalutamide had been recommended for father’s prostate cancer PSA levels are rising rapidly. Can you cast opinions or advice?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, let me describe– I have one formula here that’s been helpful. Yeah. I have one compound here that I’ve been using here, just I had a couple of supplement companies reach out and I’m using it. It’s the pomegranate extract, and the flower pollen extract and its cranberry extract. So cranberry, pomegranate and flower pollen. This is an excellent support. Lot of research behind those extracts as well. Lycopene is phenomenal, getting adequate levels of selenium 200 mics a day is phenomenal, enough zinc as well is phenomenal saw palmetto’s great. These are excellent compounds that help. Lycopene is phenomenal as well. Again, the diet has to be in place. You want to get the lifestyle things going and again, these things don’t grow overnight. They probably taken decades to kind of move. So coffee and Coffee enemas may also be helpful to kind of early push detox in a faster more acute kind of way. But some  couple of compounds that I mentioned are phenomenal and wouldn’t hurt getting them on board in the meantime.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And look at my podcast I did with the lady named Dr. Nasha Winters.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: She did a book that’s called, “The Metabolic Approach to Cancer” She— she had cancer herself and she’s been holistically supporting people with cancer for about 20 years. So uh— look up Nasha Winters and uh look up her book and you could implement some strategies there hopefully.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Also, get the insulin levels under control. Make sure fasting insulin is five or below at least. That’s important because insulin is gonna cause a lot of cells to grow and then also making sure xenoestrogen exposure is mitigated, right? Don’t drink out of plastic bottles, avoid pesticides and GMO’s and glyphosate and Roundup. These are chemicals that you’re gonna get from conventional foods. Obviously, eat organic, right? Pasteur-fed meats. Again, these things— I shouldn’t have to repeat them, but I just can’t assume that everyone knows these stuff.

Evan Brand: They don’t. Not everyone does. So, yeah, keep repeating it and keep preaching. And I think that’s all the questions. So we did— we did really good. That was fun.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I heard a quote back. It’s a quote from the 1940s, where Joe DiMaggio was interviewed and they said that Joe said, “We noticed that you sprint on and off the field every single time at full speed no matter what.” And he said, “Well, there may be someone coming out to see me for the first time ever that seeing me play the way I’m playing and I wanna play at 100% every time.” And then maybe some people that are coming out for the first time seeing us play here, and we want to make sure that they get that information that we may assume that other people uh— may have, right? The equivalent will be like us jogging on the field, so to speak, if we just assume that.

Evan Brand: Yup.  Well said. Well, reach out if you need help. Justinhealth.com You can schedule with Justin. Evanbrand.com if you’d like to schedule consults with us. We should have some availability in the next 3 to 6 weeks or so. So just take a look and  we’re happy to help you soon as we can.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, by the way, I’m adding in the Mimosa Pudica as well. So I’ll be reporting back on that in the next couple weeks. I think you as well Evan. So we’ll chat about that.  Again, I just got that in stock. That’s the Para-1 in my store. I think you have it in your store as well. So, we’ll put that in the show links, too. So that’s a cool new herb that we’re working on. We have a couple other herbal compounds in the mix that we’re using for different types of co-infections that we’re researching uhm—in the background, too.

Evan Brand: Awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey, Evan, great chatting with you, man. You have an awesome day. We’ll chat soon.

Evan Brand: You too. Take care

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.

Evan Brand: Bye.


References:

https://justinhealth.com/products/para-1/

https://justinhealth.com/products/betaine-hcl-supreme/

https://justinhealth.com/products/liver-supreme/

https://justinhealth.com/products/enzyme-synergy/

https://www.mykidcurescancer.com/nasha-winters/

 

Fibromyalgia Natural Solutions – Dr. J Live Podcast #159

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand discuss about Fibromyalgia including its cause and symptoms. Learn how some of the symptoms connected to it such as anxiety, depression, IBS, memory problems are also seen in other health conditions.

Listen as they talk about some of the viruses, infections, gut health, heavy metals, thyroid and adrenal imbalances as possible contributing factors or underlying issues leading to unfavorable health symptoms. Gain some valuable information regarding natural solutions and lifestyle changes that you can do to combat these symptoms.

 Natural Solutions for Fibromyalgia

In this episode, we cover:

 

02:15   Fibromyalgia Symptoms

03:48   Viruses and Infections

07:20   Gut Health

10:31   Adrenal Issues

13:19   Heavy Metals

 

Just In Health iTunes

Just In Health YouTube




Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s Dr. J here in the house. Evan, how we doing today? Happy Monday!

Evan Brand: Hey, man!  Happy Monday to you. Life is good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. We had a little technical difficulty here. But we are rolling. The show must go on. So, any any updates for me here that you want to bring to my attention before we dig in and get dirty?

Evan Brand: Well, I’m just excited. I’m excited to talk with you about fibromyalgia. This is one of those things in that category like IBS where the conventional doctors—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand:.. give people diagnosis and then they just end up with drugs in their pockets and they don’t have any real success. And people struggle for years and years and years, they end up with these other symptoms that come along with fibromyalgia like anxiety or depression or IBS. And once again, conventional Docs, they just don’t really have a high success rate with this issue.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A hundred percent agree. And fibromyalgia is one of these interesting types of diagnoses. Basically you have to have uh—central allodynia pain, which is kind of like this uh— pain that may be true like 11 different random spots of the body. So they look for these different pain, tender spots, shoulders, chest, hips, back. And they are looking for like at least 11 out of the 17 or so spots. And if you have it, great, you have fibromyalgia, right? Coz basically what is a central allodynia? That means your nervous system is so hypersensitive that it’s dectecting, you know, you rubbing like this, just things that shouldn’t cause pain. It’s sensing that it’s pain. And that’s the biggest issue coz  the nervous system is so upregulated, it’s like having an antenna that’s so hypersensitive that it’s picking up stations uhm— that shouldn’t be picking up.  And it’s the same kinda thing. Your nervous system is an antenna that’s picking up all these nociception or pain sensation where it shouldn’t be. So we want to get to the root cause of why that is. Go ahead.

Evan Brand: Yeah. There is uh—conventional drug that a lot of people end up on. The Lyrica, which I’m sure you’ve heard of.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: Huge pricing commercials for it. And I’ve had people taking that and they just don’t notice much and then sometimes the side effects, maybe not without drug, buy any of the drugs, can be worse than the actual thing that you’re trying to fix into the first place. So that’s just— it’s scary because when you want to get a root cause answered, you’re not gonna get it unless you start running some of these functional medicine testing that we’re talking about. So I just have a list of symptoms I wanted to read that could come along with the fibromyalgia. So that could be anxiety, that could be concentration and memory problems, depression, fatigue, headaches, irritable bowel syndrome. Now, that sounds like a lot of other things that we need to talk about.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And here’s the thing, right? A lot of people may have gluten sensitivity or hypothyroidism or heavy metal issues or gut microbial imbalances, the issue is that some people may manifest with Hashimoto’s. Some may manifest with fibromyalgia symptoms who have a lot of the central allodynia pain. So it is interesting because some people, they can have the exact same core underlying issue, but have a totally different diagnosis. And all of diagnoses is a constellation of symptoms that are typically put into one category, right? The chronic pain symptoms—that’s gonna be in the fibromyalgia category. Memory symptoms—that’s gonna be in the category. Fatigue symptoms— that could be in the thyroid or adrenal category. Gut issues— depending on where that inflammation is located, that could be in the Crohn’s or Ulcerative Colitis or there’s no inflammation in the tissues that can be in the IBS category like you. So this is where it’s tough because all conventional medicine is tyring to categorize known symptoms in the categories call the “disease”. We are trying to trace it upstream. And the hard part about functional medicine is certain people can have the exact same imbalances and manifest with totally separate diseases. That’s the hardest part people to wrap their heads around.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Let’s go into the viruses. My wife when she had joint pain several years ago, you said, “Evan, the first thing you need to look into is going to be some of the viruses.” And so we got a blood test run on her. She did not show up with Lyme, fortunately, but she did show up with the cytomegalovirus and then also the mycoplasma. Can— so can you speak about those a bit? And how that could be causing joint pain that could get misdiagnosed?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A hundred percent. So there are certain infections like mycoplasma is one of them they can manifest in the joint tissue, for sure. So that’s one of those conditions that an infection can really be driving a lot of that joint pain. And we know certain infections and certain imbalances can manifest with certain symptoms. Like we know that hypothyroid issues, low thyroid function can manifest having low thyroid hormone in joint pain. We also know like infections like mycoplasma can also cause or call  the lower thyroid function and then potentially manifest in joint pain. We also know it could potentially manifest in the joints and you know certain antibiotics like Minocycline to help knock it out. We prefer to use some of the herbs coz it tends to be safer on the gut microbiome in the long run, number one. And then with your wife symptoms, we notice that she already had a pretty good diet.  And there was a tick bite involved in your wife’s last issues. Is that correct?

Evan Brand: That’s right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And so because of that, you know, we were leaning towards, “Hey, let’s just to after the infection and see what happens.” And when we knocked out the infection, everything got a lot better. So that was good to see that.

Evan Brand: Yeah. It was so— it was so it was so easy, too. So simple. Just modify the immune system, all of a sudden things are better. So, if you have fibromyalgia or you have joint pain and general pain stiffness, you gotta make sure you roll those in. So go to your doctor if you’ve got a natural path or functional medicine practitioner, that’s even better. Try to get them to test you for the Lyme, plus the co-infection. So coz like I said she had a negative result for Lyme, but she was positive for these other things, Cytomegalo and the Mycoplasma. So you gotta go look for them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent. So, again, any issue any like disease issue, like if you’re someone and we’re focusing on fibromyalgia today because that’s got a certain bit of symptoms that manifest in pain. So if you resonate with that, great. This is going to help you. If you don’t resonate with fibromyalgia symptoms, but you have something else, this podcast is still gonna be helpful because we always trace it back to the underlying imbalances, which can manifest itself in different symptoms. But one thing that’s gonna be uniform across the board is looking at the gut. The gut is really important coz that’s where a lot of your immune system is. 70 to 80% that’s where your body digests and breaks down nutrients, that’s where uhm—your— essentially you digest and break down all the food you’re eating. So if we’ve a bottleneck in the breakdown of our nutrition, we’ve a bottleneck in how our immune system functions, if we have a leaky gut and your immune system’s being overreactive, or if we have an infection there, that can create a lot of underlying stress that may manifest itself in different symptoms. And again, kinda linking it back to fibromyalgia, if you have these chronic pain issues, those 11 kind of places a central allodynia pain to touch, right? Your diagnosed 11 places of pain on your body, at least. And you have the fibromyalgia, the diagnosis, then we definitely have to rule out the gut. And again, here’s a thing that really throws people for a loop is that you can have gut issues and not have gut symptoms – that’s the really hard thing. You may not have the bloating, the gas, the diarrhea, the constipation, the acid reflux, and you may still have a gut issue.

Evan Brand: Uh-hmm. H. pylori we see it every week in the clinic. So if you’ve got H.Pylori, you’ve got that bacterial infection, that’s suppressing HCl production, therefore you’re not digesting your food. So if you’re seen floating stools or you’re seeing undigested food particles in your stool, that could all be adding up to this whole picture of the depression, the anxiety, the fatigue. Maybe even skin issues, too. So maybe you don’t have the fibromyalgia diagnoses, but you’ve got fatigue, depression, anxiety maybe some sleep problems maybe some skin issues. That could all be tied into leaky gut— that intestinal permeability. It could be something as simple as H. pylori or like Dr. Justin Marchegianientioned, it could be H. pylori plus Mycoplasma plus maybe some bacterial overgrowth like the SIBO case or plus parasites, which is something we often talk about, plus fungus. You know, typically it’s not just one thing. Most of the time, by the time people get to us, they’ve been suffering for quite a long time and therefore, there’s usually a handful of things that we’ve got to address. Now on the thyroid, is the pain going away just a side effect of you fixing your thyroid? Like all the sudden thyroid function improves and the pain just goes away. Could it be that simple if that were your biggest root cause?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well 100%. So you can see it quite frequently that just getting someone on some T3, some thyroid hormone can really help because they may be on thyroid hormone, T4, but they’re not able to convert and activate it. So there’s TSH, right? The pituitary hormone that most conventional docs measure to look at thyroid function may look nice and pretty but they’re not making that conversion from T4 to T3. So their T3 levels may be low, and if you come in there with some activated T3, you may start to put some of their thyroid symptoms on remission. Now, we have to understand, from a functional medicine perspective, what’s palliative and what’s root cause. So we have to make sure we actually fix the underlying conversion issues, if it’s nutrient or if it’s inflammationm if it’s gut, if it’s immune. And we also had to fix the underlying nutrient absorption issues, the infections, the autoimmunity, right? So whatever those issues are. So, we kinda understand that there are certain natural medicine things we can do. There are palliative, which are great. And there are certain things like, I think you mentioned earlier about the uhm—your child has a little bit of eczema and you know, putting a little bit of coconut oil in there helps. But you recognize, that’s palliative not root cause. So we try to get to the underlying foods that may be causing it.  Same thing in this analogy with thyroid. And thyroid, low thyroid hormone can express itself in about 70 different symptoms—hair loss, fatigue, uhm— brain fog, anxiety, right? All these different symptoms. Also, the pain symptom is one of the.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. And if it’s Hashimoto’s, if it’s an autoimmune thyroid condition, that T3 could help symptoms improve. In this case, you could get more energy, could help reduce pain. But if you haven’t stop that autoimmune attack by addressing infection, supporting the adrenal glands, making sure the diet is dialled in, and you don’t have any foods that are creating antibodies against the thyroid. You know, those are some of the big three needlemovers you got to have on board to fix this thing at the root and not just be stuck on T4 or T3 or combination for the rest your life.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent. So we also know that adrenal issues— adrenal imbalance is not necessarily adrenal fatigue, of course, you know, most people in the conventional medical world will hear adrenal fatigue and think adrenal failure like Addison’s disease, okay? Which is valid but we also know that there can be imbalances in cortisol that may not be a full disease failure kind of situation. It may be just lower adrenal cortisol issues, lower DHEA because of HPA axis dysfunction. And if that’s the case, we want to make sure we support that because adrenal, zero adrenal glands produce cortisol, which is your natural anti-inflammatory hormone. And again, people that have chronic pain issues, a lot of times, we put on like COX 2 inhibitors, things like that. Severe pain, of course, Opioids is an Oxycontin, which is a another big issue in itself. But also, Prednisone and Corticosteroid drugs that basically have the ability to knock down inflammation, the problem is, why aren’t your own glands working enough to cover up that inflammation, too? So, if we get the adrenals working better, we can kinda make some of our own homemade Prednisone on our own—our own homemade Corticosteroids to help cut that inflammation down.

Evan Brand: So talk about what happens. Let’s say somebody is on the steroids long-term, that’s also going to affect the adrenals as we’ve seen on some lab results.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. It will throw off some of the feedback loop, so will disrupt the HPA axis, that’s the brain talking to the adrenals. That’s that nice feedback loop or that kind of internal thermostat that our body has. So we do have that there that we have to work on because that can affect that thermostat. Uhm—number two, it can really throw off your blood sugar. So taking a lot of synthetic steroids that when we create protocols for a patient, we may use small amounts of precursor hormones like Pregnenolone or DHEA. And these are gonna throw things off in the same way that a drug would. Because these drugs are very, very powerful. They can mess up the feedback loops. But if you’re using a corticosteroid, it can really mess up your blood sugar and in the long run, it can even create osteoporotic situations. It can really thin out the bones. It can really weaken the gut lining because these steroids break things down,right? They’re anti-inflammatory but they are also very catabolic. So it’s great in the short run, right? When we get back on track, but not good in the long run coz it can really mess up our glandular physiology. How that—how our hormonal systems work. And the feedback loops that kinda keep them connected.

Evan Brand: I think it’s worth mentioning heavy metals, too. I don’t think it’s good to be

necessarily the number one cause for most people, but we notice that if there is a gut issue, let’s say somebody does have these gut bugs, they could have a detox problems, too. Just coz their body, their liver is just so overburden. Let’s talk about metals a bit. So could be just amalgam fillings or could be occupational exposure or could be too much of a lower quality or too big of a fish like a tuna that’s causing issues. Let’s talk about that for a minute.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: 100%. So we can definitely have toxicity issues like Mercury which can be very inflammatory. Mercury also is similar to the halide group so it could fit into the receptor site where Iodine would typically bind in. Fluoride and bromine can also pinch-hit there as well. So that can create a lot of issues regarding that. Mercury can also jam up the mitochondria. I mean feel free and go to PubMed and just type in “Mercury and mitochondrial function” and you’ll see increase in heavy metals can decrease mitochondrial function. And again, as—as glycolysis and our Krebs cycle turns and we have betaoxidation on the flipside, we generate about 36 ATP’s per pump and those ATP’s work is kind of the cellular currency for energy, right? It’s how our body kind of you know, creates energy and you know, has aerobic metabolism to create ATP, which is our body functions and that’s kinda the byproduct of having a healthy metabolism.

But if we go in there and all these gears are moving spitting out all these ATP, which is basically cellular energy, and we messed that up, we throw kind of a monkey wrench into the gearbox, that’s gonna prevent optimal ATP function, which is gonna throw off our energy and our body ability—our body’s ability to function, right? Lower energy is gonna create symptoms. Anytime you have lower energy, you  tend to start having brain fog issues, mood issues, fatigue issues, pain issues, sleep issues because energy is the byproduct of a healthy metabolism. So when energy goes, metabolism is going down. And when that’s starts to go, other symptoms tend to manifest as well.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I’ve gotta say two things. One is glyphosate. If you’re not 100% organic, make your goal to be a 100% organic as close as you possibly can. I love that people are honest. I had a guy who on his intake form, I asked the question, “What percentage or diet is organic?” He said 0%. I’m like, “Man, you’re getting glyphosate.” We can measure it. We can prove it on a piece paper, but just know if something is not labeled organic, especially your fruits and veggies, assume it’s contaminated with glyphosate. Just like Justin mentioned about Mercury, antibiotics, glyphosate. Those are all mitochondrial killers and so there’s nothing worse that you could possibly do than have glyphosate in your system. Now, fortunately, you can detox it by using the sauna. There’s other methods that we talked about but just make it a goal. Throw out the—you know, go donate or throw out the non-organic stuff. Swap it out. Pay the extra buck. Pay the extra 2 bucks. It’s gonna be much, much more valuable in the long-term and much cheaper in the long term because you’re gonna prevent yourself from having health issues associated with glyphosate toxicity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent. Hundred percent. I had a conversation with someone recently that say, “Hey, you you realize organic food doesn’t have any more nutrients than conventional food.” And I said back to them,”Well, it depends.” There are some studies that do say organic food does have more nutrients. I mean there are some people that say that’s there are some studies by Temple University that shows a much higher level in nutrition with organic food than conventional food. I just think it depends on what kind of organic we’re talking about factory farm, you know, big corporations have started labeling things organic. And again, are they gonna have the same high level as a local farm regarding fertilization, you know, rotating the crops. I mean, if you just have an organic farm without pesticides, but you just continue to heat that crop season after season, don’t let it rest, don’t switch spots, and don’t you know, add synergy to the land, right? Some synergy is like, for instance, when the cows pass on their— basically have their manure, their bowel movements, you’re bringing the chickens afterwards to kind of help uh knock out all the grubs, right? Which prevents other animals from coming in. So you can add synergy to the land that helps, number one, increase uhm— fertility to the soil, right? Increases that top soil. But number two, it helps other past and creatures from growing, which can create havoc down the line. And so, in other words, uhmm—some people can really hit that soil hard and decrease the nutrient densities of the organic food. It has less nutrients, anyway. But anyway, so let’s just pretend this person is right. They told me organic food has the same nutrition as conventional food. Alright. Fine. We do know the research is quite conclusive that organic food has less pesticide residue. Of course, coz to be organic, you can’t have pesticides on it. So just the fact that— let’s the nutrient’s density is the same from organic food. While I’m definitely not getting the pesticide exposure, which Evan mentioned earlier with Glyphosate or Roundup. It’s so important. coz there are so many studies on that coming out that it’s very toxic on the body, on the liver, on the gut. And essentially many other places.

Evan Brand: You know, the European Union, they’re successfully banning it. I’ve been trying to keep up with this is much as I can. It looks like glyphosate is seeing the end of the rope in the European Union. I hope something is to follow in the US, but I just don’t think it’s gonna be anytime soon here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I agree.

Evan Brand: One of the thing I wanted to mention is on the CDC’s website about fibromyalgia, they say that much much much higher rates of ankylosing spondylitis occur with fibromyalgia and Justin and I mentioned this on a mini podcast. That’s an autoimmune condition. And so it sounds like what they’re saying without saying it because maybe they’re not noticing the link, is that this whole thing is likely just a autoimmune issue. The IBS, like you mentioned, the Crohn’s or the Colitis, the Hashimoto’s, like this could all just be autoimmunity at the root. And we’ve just got to go through all of our causes and fix the autoimmune issue and then all of a sudden you can reverse the symptoms.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent. And again, there’s like over a 180 autoimmune conditions. So my analogy is anytime you have a physical chemical or emotional stress, or  you know, imagine having this fancy pearl necklace, every time you put tight, that’s a physical chemical or emotional stressor in your life. And let’s just say every little spot where that pearl connects to the necklace, they’re not all the same strength. There maybe some part to that chain that are little bit weaker. Think of that as genetic predisposition at work. You’re gonna have certain genetic links in the chain that are going to be a little bit weaker. Now what does that mean to you, as that stress comes on, that part of the chain may be more likely to break than another part. Let’s say  Pearl 33 is more likely to break them Pearl three or Pearl four, right? Now, Pearl 33 may be ankylosing spondylitis. And that stressor may be Roundup or could be Hashimoto’s or let’s say Pearl 4 is Hashimoto’s for someone else, right? So think of every little link in that chain as a different disease that could manifest if that link is broken. And where that link you for you, is gonna be based on your genetic predisposition. What we have control over is not pulling that damn chain type. Let it go. Let it relax, right? How do we do that? All of the diet and lifestyle things. Just cutting the Round up out. Eating organic. That pulls the stress off. And getting that good sleep, having good thoughts, fixing your gut, fixing infections, making sure you can digest and break down all that really good food that you’re eating. Get your hormones under control if there’s imbalances there. Does that make sense, Evan?

Evan Brand: Oh, it sure does. I mean, just like you picture a big wall think of like a submarine. You’ve got a 1000 switches in all these red switches are flipped on. We’re just gonna go down the list and just flip all those red switches off, and all of a sudden you turn off, you’ve not pulled the trigger. You’ve got the loaded gun, but we’re just gonna decide not to pull the trigger. People think that like genetic testing is the end-all be-all and “Oh, my gosh! I’m genetically predisposed to X.” It’s like that doesn’t change the protocol at all. That just means you need to be even more diligent. If your family had a history of this condition or other conditions, you just have to be more diligent. That doesn’t mean you’re toast. That doesn’t mean you’re definitely going to get XYZ disease or condition. That just mean you got pay attention. You’ve gotta make sure you’ve got all the pieces going in your favor.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And I pretty much work with the genetic stuff. I don’t get so hyper fixated on it. I just assume the worst for everyone. And that way, we’re making the changes in hydration, with sleep, with water, with toxicity, with gut. We’re not gonna give synthetic folic acid. We’re gonna give super high quality methylated B vitamins. We’re just making that assumption for everyone because I can’t be hurt by making that assumption in that direction. If I make it the opposite direction and say, “Hey, it’s okay. You probably don’t have a folate issue. I’m gonna save some money and put some crappy synthetic folic acid in my multivitamin instead of high-quality activated folate. Then I can go wrong, right? I may save a little bit of money but because we’re interfacing with our patients daily and weekly, we know that we’re better off rolling the dice in favor of there being an issue with that. So we always have the higher quality nutrients in there to cover our butts.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And I had a a woman who emailed me this morning she said, “Evan, I had a reaction to gluten. Do you think it’s time that I go get tested for celiac?” And I told her, “It’s better cheaper and likely safer just to assume that you’ve got a massive allergy to gluten,” Then you just need to stay way because really, going to the gastroenterology process where they make you eat— what is it two slices of bread for like a week or two and then they cut out a piece of your intestine to try to see if all those cilia where destroyed or flattened. And then a lot of times, there’s even false negatives there. So you could do all that work. Destroy your body, create inflammation and then say, “Oh, it says negative.” It’s like just stay away and be more diligent. Don’t tell people that it’s a preference. Just tell it—  tell people at a restaurant it’s a gluten allergy. Make  they change their gloves. And you’re gonna be much safer as opposed to waiting for that diagnosis. So that’s kinda what my message is. If you have these symptoms, maybe  you’re not been officially diagnosed with fibromyalgia, but you’ve got these symptoms, you’ve got pain and the sleep and fatigue. Just go ahead and think, “Okay, maybe I’ve got XYZ but now I’ve just gotta start working on all these big pieces we talked about.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hundred percent. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. And someone’s chiming in here on the YouTube live here, chat saying that uhm—their local farmer told him it’s certified organic, allows them to spray toxic pesticides two times a year. Not sure what kind of certification that is.  Typically, the USDA certification’s pretty good. The fied has to be—the land has to be for three years without pesticides to even get that certification. So I’m not sure if we’re talking about the same USDA certification, number one. And a lot of farmers they’ll use other compounds that tend to be a little less toxic to help with spring. So like for instance we have our property done which had to use probiotic spray and we tend to use essential oils. And again, there may be chemicals in there, of course, but they may be harmonious and have less toxic burden. I’m more worried about the toxicity of the pesticides. And let’s say you bought an organic food that was, you know, in one of these farms that was spray twice a year,  well, isn’t that gonna be better than a farm that’s sprayed weekly?

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So I’m kinda like good-better-best. Hey, if I’m gonna cheat or if I have a choice option between something that was spray weekly versus twice a year, I’m still gonna go with twice a year because that toxicity burns is gonna be good. Also, we can just utilize the Clean 15 and the dirty dozen. Great, if we’re gonna buy a food that’s conventional or somewhat conventional with pesticides. Let’s look at the Clean 15 and see the foods that have less pesticide residue and avoid the dirty dozen and/or just get a really good uhm— vegetable or fruit wash that you can wash off some of the external pesticides at least.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And some of the regulations under the USDA, there’s a difference between 100% organic and just certified organic. So, obviously, the best thing to do which is contact a local farmer, which is what I do. I buy some bison meat and other products locally. And I know that they don’t ever use chemicals ever and if they do have to use chemicals, they’ll tell you. And they’ll say, why, what happened how much, what did they actually use. So if you just look up local harvest and go look up type in your ZIP Code, your location, go find some local people and just talk with them. That way, you  don’t have to guess anymore whether something’s actually legit from the grocery store. I still go to the grocery, but I try to source other things outside where I can check the person’s hand. It’s just a lot more viable experience that way.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And again, we just have to do your best, right? Sometimes we don’t have the best options you know, when we’re traveling or we’re going out to eat. But if we can control the 80 to 90% when we’re home and we’re in our house and the foods that we choose in our area, that’s gonna be the most important thing. Also, when you’re healthy, you get a little bit more wiggle room; when you’re chronically sick, you don’t. So if you’re chronically sick, then you really got to be careful and make the best decision possible and uhm— if you’re not, then 10 to 20%, I’m totally okay with. And if you’re going to get exposed to things, activated charcoal is a great option uhm— taking some extra detox support may be helpful, too. So all that’s really good if you know you’re gonna be getting exposed to not so good things.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Take in your enzymes, too. Take in your acids, your enzymes. You and I both use enzymes that are gonna contain special ones that helps. So if you do get  to it. exposed to gluten, that can help reduce the flareup. If you are sensitive, you are react to it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. And then James here, talks about uhm— his fatigue still lingers daily, can’t shake it. Thyroid tested good with me, uhm—Modafinil works great and gets me to the day. And Modafinil or Provigil aspirin is a big fan of it. Not a huge fan long term. I mean I think it’s not fixing any of the underlying issues. So the diet helps I mean I would look more at the adrenals, I’d look more at the mitochondria. I forget your specific case, James, I know you’re doing good for a while. So if you just had a backward slide recently, we’d wanna chat and figure out what underlying stressors have creeped up or make sure the infections are gone, or make sure the mitochondria are functioning as optimal as possible. So I wanna look a little bit deeper. I’m fine, though, using Modafinil Provigil punctuated time frames, you know, a work deadline comes up, major stressors you know, you have to induce some extra stuff on the weekend with your family or work stuff, then fine. Take that to really upregulate your body but just keep in mind there’s something deeper we got a look at. And just  you know, things like sleep and things like hydration and people forget those all the time.

Evan Brand: Yup. Very simple but sometimes the most simple stuff moves the needle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean Daniel talks about here, uh— talks about what can cause jellylike lumps in the semen sometimes painful to pass. Well first off, I would do like a urine analysis first, just to make sure there’s nothing, no UTI your uhm—you know, nothing that’s kidney or bladder base. Make sure there’s no infections in the piping, so to speak. Uh—again, I would also rule out epididymitis. Make sure there’s no infections in the epididymis. There could be a bacterial issue that’s just causing these uh— the semen to kinda agglutinate or stick together. And also, even just run a sperm analysis. Just to make sure this— the semen are actually alive and it’s not a whole bunch of dead semen uh— in there as well. So, I would look there first. If the diet’s good, if everything else is good, I would just make sure any type of infections and that urinary area are also clear too. E. coli, those kinda things.

Evan Brand: Awesome. Well, we gotta wrap up. Both of us gotta get back to our calls, but we hope you guys enjoy the show and leave us questions. You can leave us questions in the future. So if you didn’t catch this live, go to Justin’s YouTube channel. Go on his video, write in your questions, we’ll try to answer as many as we can or will save those for future show. And then same thing for topics. If you have topics that you want us to address, please put them on there. And if we need to reach out for a consult, check out Justin’s site. It’s Justinhealth.com You can schedule a consult. If you wanna schedule a consult with me, check out my site EvanBrand.com and we are happy and willing to help you. So please reach out if you’re suffering around the world, just phone in and Skype consults make it easy for us to help you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And check us out on our podcast channels, too. We’re trying to do our videos here on YouTube, but we’re also trying to record everything in higher-quality audio. So, if you want to hear  us in some higher quality audio, check out our podcast channels. Again, if you go to Evan’s site, EvanBrand.com or my site, Justinhealth.com click on the podcast and you can subscribe to get updated, audio as well. Anything else you wanted to add, Evan?

Evan Brand: I think that’s it. Awesome and Ross, yeah, Mastic Gum is great for H. Pylori.  Awesome show today, Evan. Great as always. Appreciate your energy and your insights and let’s chat real soon.

Evan Brand: Likewise, man. Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Take Care. Bye now.

Evan Brand: See you.

 


References:

Justinhealth.com

Evanbrand.com

 

 

 

Low Body Temperature! – Dr. J Live Podcast # 156

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand engage in a very informative discussion about low body temperature. Learn how different potential stressors like thyroid issues, adrenal issues, gut health, autoimmune conditions, nutrition and low calories cause low body temperature. Find out about the role of micronutrients in thyroid hormone conversion and be aware of the medications that have a negative impact on mitochondrial function.

Gain information about the different foods, including modifications in macronutrients, and various supplements, which will improve your health and prevent different stressors that are possibly causing low body temperature.

In this episode, we cover: low body temperature

03:27   Thyroid issues

07:05   Beneficial Nutrients

14:14   Toxins and Medications

22:51   Food and Supplements

33:46   Calorie Intake

 

 

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And we are live here on YouTube. It’s Dr. J in the house. Evan, my man, how are you doing brother?

Evan Brand: Hey man, happy Monday! We’re talking all fair about that shooting this morning so my mom, she worked right next door last night at the Hotel Luxor which was uh— right next door to that shooting event in Vegas. So I called her this morning and she’s safe and sound and she got released, so she’s home, hopefully sleeping. I’m sure she’s extremely adrenally stressed at this point, but hopefully she’s resting and settling down from all that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Lots of empathy for all the people out there going through that. It must be just incredibly stressful.

Evan Brand: It’s insane.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s just so difficult. So wishing everyone, you know, speedy recovery from that. That is just so difficult and man, everyone’s adrenals are revved up from that, right?

Evan Brand: I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So let’s go into some stuff here where people, we would get— put some information out there about improving everyone’s health.

Evan Brand: Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh—and just continue to empower more people. So let’s dig in, brother.

Evan Brand: Yes. Yes, so you and I want to chat about low body temperature, which is something that so many people have. I’ve had it in the winter for a long time. I’m hoping that since I work so much, my gut and my adrenals that I don’t have it this winter but cold hands, cold feet you know that had been something that I mentioned going on with me for—for several years. I know there’s a lot of different causes that you and I wanted to go through. So how should we open this thing? Should we talk about hormones, thyroid, how do you want to lay the groundwork?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, we look at body temperature. Temperature is probably one of the best indicators of your metabolism, right? Because the more energy you have, typically the— the better your temperature is. And so typically, you’re gonna have symptoms of cold temperature which are gonna be cold hands, cold feet those kind of things. Also, fatigue, but now there’s also objective ways that we can test your temperature. You know, with the thermometer, obviously. We can do axillary temperature, which is armpit. 97.8 to 98.2 is—is Fahrenheit is a pretty good range to be in. Or 98.2 to 98.6 orally. And so you can kind of assess your temperature. You can do it in the morning and then you can also do it in the afternoon as well. Kinda do it just for before eating. That gives you a pretty good indication but if your metabolism is low and your temperature is low, it could be caused by an interplay of different things. We’ll go into it. It could be thyroid issues. It could be adrenal issues. It could be gut issues. It could be nutrient issues. It could be mitochondrial issues. So all of these things are potential stressors that could be driving that problem.

Evan Brand: I’d say number one is probably thyroid issues. Wouldn’t you suspect because so many people we talk with they have adrenal issues with them on top of that there is a thyroid problem. Like maybe elevated reverse T3, whether you’ve got that blank bullet going on or they just got a low free T3 or like you and I’ve chatted about with adrenals, you’ve got the conversion process that happens where you take the inactive T4 hormone, you convert that to active T3.That conversion process gets messed up if you’ve got chronic stress. And chronic stress as you mentioned, could be gut infections, it could be emotional stress, could be chemical, heavy metals. It could be circadian rhythm stress if you’re working third shift, for example. That could be enough to change this whole cascade. Wouldn’t you say?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. Hundred percent. I mean, again, all of those things can be intimately connected. The first we look at is thyroid because thyroid hormone has a major effect on our metabolism. And our metabolism is the sum of all chemical reactions in the body. And our metabolism is pH driven, right? So if our pH becomes too alkaline or too acidic, like you know blood pH, which exists in a very fine-tune range, right around 7.35+ or -1/10 of point there. And if that pH shifts up or down, that can affect how all of our enzymes in our bodywork. So that can affect temperature and there’s things like—uh like a diabetic coma, right? Where blood sugar can go to he— or too low typically. If someone’s type I dependent and they don’t have insulin, they don’t get sugar into their cell, which can create ketoacidosis. And that can really, really drop that pH and that put you into a coma. So our pH is very driven and has a major effect on our metabolism, so, totally.

Evan Brand: So let’s hit on—let’s hit on the thyroid peace. Now autoimmunity is something we talk about so much. Would you say a common symptom of someone with Hashimoto’s, for example, could be low body temperature or possibly even a fluctuating. Maybe their low body temperature if they’re a bit underperforming but then couldn’t they just bounce right back and get actually hot if they bump into hyperthyroid. If they’re in the Hashimoto’s state, and things are still fluctuating.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. So, if you’re having Hashimoto’s and your immune systems constantly attacking your thyroid, your thyroid hormone can spill.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Coz every time it’s attacked, hormone spills out. Eventually those follicles run dry and you’re not gonna quite have that hyper kind of symptoms. So in an acute attack, hyper symptoms may be increased temperature are common, right? You can have like PVC’s periventricular contractions. Uh—you can have, you know, kinda this—kinda heart palpitations. Your heart’s kinda beating erratic and hard, uh—anxiety, night sweats, irritability. These are all hyper thyroid symptoms. You feel warming, right? You feel excessive warmth or temperature. But then, in a chronic state, that will eventually lead to a hypothyroid kind of environment, where your body temperature just gets very low.

Evan Brand: So someone has had Hashimoto’s for quite some time, let’s say there’s been a pretty significant tissue destruction, you would say someone will not end up being hyper long-term with Hashimoto’s. It’d probably be hypo long-term.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean you can—hyper feels very similar. Hyperthyroid Grave’s feels very similar to a hypothyroid autoimmune attack. The difference is with hyper, typically, there’s a specific antibodies or immunoglobulin compounds that come back. So with Grave’s, you’re seeing TSI immunoglobulins or you’re seeing thyroid TSH receptor site antibodies. So that’s what’s typically common in Grave’s. And when those things are high, it’s accelerating the thyroid hormone to produce excessive amounts of thyroid hormone. So there’s like a production stimulation where with the autoimmune attack, from like thyroglobulin antibodies or TPO antibodies is it’s more the spilling of a thyroid hormone out of the thyroid. It’s spilling out where the antibody attack from Grave’s, it’s stimulating the thyroid to produce more.

Evan Brand: Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: With Hashimoto’s, you’re not getting the stimulation. You’re more or less getting that spilling effect, which eventually, you know, will run dry.

Evan Brand: Got it. Got it.  Okay. So we hit the autoimmune piece. What else would go on thyroid-wise that will be an issue with temperature regulation?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, again, there’s also certain nutrients that have a major effect on thyroid uh—conversions. So we know things like selenium are super important for thyroid conversion. So someone may have decent thyroid levels from a T4 perspective, uh— but they may not have that activation, right? They may not have that conversion uhm— that’s so important.

Evan Brand: So could it just be the lack of trace nutrients, trace mineral selenium, zinc— things like that activators.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So here, we are live on Facebook now, too with the low body temperature podcast. So getting back onto our common thread. Yeah, micronutrients like selenium are gonna be important for thyroid conversion. It’s a five—the enzyme that converts T4 to T3 inactive thyroid hormone to active thyroid hormone is a 5 deiodinase enzyme. It’s also important with glutathione and detoxification. So, yeah, that’s totally uh— important micronutrient that will affect thyroid activations. So when we look at thyroid function, we’re looking at are there blood sugar fluctuations? Are you eating grains or foods that are gonna cause that thyroid antibody attack that could cause the hormones to spill out and eventually deplete the hormones? Your thyroid follicles carry about four months of thyroid hormone. So again, if you have a chronic Hashimoto attack, where the thyroid hormone’s spilling out faster than you can synthesize and make more, then you’re going to definitely get to that depletion state where you’re gonna go hypo from a temperature standpoint. You’re gonna go almost hypothermic. That temperature will drop below that 97.8 – 98.2 armpit temperature wise or 98.2 to 98.6 and I’ll put a handout down below to my uh— metabolic temperature handout. So people can actually track their temperatures and it’s basically a graph of three different lines. And then the top brackets where you want your temperature to be through which ranges 97.8 – 98.6 We want to be checking off daily that your temps are in this bracket not the bottom or the very bottom.

Evan Brand: Got it. Okay. So what else? Should we talk about the nutrients next?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Should we talk about the nutrients, right? Vitamin A, we talked about uh— zinc, copper, selenium, magnesium very important nutrients for thyroid conversion. Now if you’re eating a whole food diet, you’re gonna be typically pretty good. If you’re having enough HCl and enzymes, you’re gonna be good as well because we need those type of compounds to be able to ionize the minerals. So it’s the diet component. It’s making sure we have the ability to break down the foods in our diet that are nutrient dense. Uhm— number three is making sure our stress response is okay because stress hormones will affect thyroid conversion. Cortisol being hyper— very high— will affect thyroid T4 to T3 conversion that inactive to active thyroid hormone. Also, if cortisol is too lo from chronic stress. So there’s this, kinda Goldilocks effect that we see here with thyroid hormone kinda need it to be not too high, but not too low to have optimal conversion. Does that makes sense?

Evan Brand: Yeah. It does. Well said. Let me mention about the gut, too, coz you just hit on the fact that you’ve got to have absorption. So even if the diet’s good, which many people listening to us, they probably already dialed in like a Paleo template but they could still have this symptom. You may want to check for infections. Coz like Justin and I talk about almost every week at some level, there could be an H. pylori, bacteria, yeast, fungus, something going on in the gut that’s stealing your nutrients or preventing you from optimally digesting. And then that issue is compounded, if you’ve been taking any type of anti-acid where acid blocking medication something simple as Tom’s or something more strong like a prior was it Prilosec or Zantac.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So, yeah. Totally.

Evan Brand: Keep that in mind. If you’re looking at your medication list and that includes acid blockers and you have cold body temperatures, it’s probably cause you’re not digesting your foods therefore the thyroid is not getting fed the nutrients it needs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Totally. And also a lot of medications could affect your mitochondria. Just Google antibiotics and mitochondrial function, you’ll find that antibiotics can negatively impact mitochondrial function. And you’ll also find that other medications can impact the mitochondria. And the mitochondria is like the little powerhouse of your cell where it generates a lot of ATP, which is that currency of energy in which your body runs. So that’s really important and also an important nutrient call carnitine really helps that mitochondria utilize fat for energy, generate ATP out of that good fat, you know, it’s called uh—beta oxidation where you’re generating energy from fat. And carnitine is an important nutrient primarily made from methionine and lysine. Now, I did a video call why vegan and vegetarian diets can make you fat? Now—no—don’t make you fat. But you know, why they the can—meaning it’s not a hundred percent. But if you’re insulin resistant and you’re doing it the wrong way, where you’re emphasizing maybe too much carbohydrates, not enough protein and more gut irritating foods, yeah, it can definitely predispose people that have an inflamed guts and work more on the insulin resistance side to gain weight. And one of the big things is that when you eat certain animal rich amino acids, there are some plant ones as well, you activate the cells in the brain that are called—hold on, one __my notes—uh—tenocytes. And these tenocytes are receptor sites in the brain in the third ventricle area of the brain. And there’s a direct blood flow between them and the hypothalamus. These tenocytes, one, they sense satiety but the big thing that senses satiety for them is arginine and lysine which are really high in animal-based foods. So these amino acids really get that sense of satiation so that means you’re one, gonna have appetite regulation. Coz when you actually start feeling full, you tend to not eat all the crap, right?

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So the more you can keep your cravings in check, the more you eat healthier foods because you got control over your biochemistry. You’re not reacting. You’re acting based on what you know you need to be healthy. But those amino acids are primarily gonna be higher in animal-based foods especially lysine as well.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well said.  So in a roundabout way, if you are a vegetarian or a vegan and you’ve got low body temperature, it could just be something as simple as a carnitine deficiency. I mean you could probably get a little bit in beans maybe—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A little bit in beans, a little bit in almonds, a little bit in plums and avocados, for sure.

Evan Brand: But even then, once we talked like—we talked all the time, digestion of those foods is probably not very good and the concentration of those is gonna be much less as opposed to a grass-fed beef.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. In my video, I talked about, you know, if you are a smart vegan where you’re not emphasizing a lot of the grains, you’re doing safer starches, you’re getting lots of fats from avocado, olive oil, coconut oil, you’re supplementing DHEA in the form of algae, right? And if you’re getting B12 uh—supplementation and you’re getting a good multi- in there and you’re getting lots of— you’re getting some protein supplementation in there, maybe from pea or hemp, right? You may be okay on a vegan-vegetarian diet, but it’s just— it’s still less than optimal just because of the fact that you gotta go through such extreme lengths to get high-quality protein sources without all the carbohydrate. Coz vegetarian-vegan diet’s typically are packed with 60 to 80% carbohydrates for that 20 to 25% of protein you get.

Evan Brand: Yup.  Well said. You hit on the mitochondria, too. We should take  that a bit further and talk about more toxins. You hit on antibiotics, some mitochondrial issues there. Makes perfect sense. We work with people all the time where they say, “Oh Justin or Evan, as soon as I took a round of antibiotics, all of a sudden things went bad.” And it could be temperature –temperature issues, it could be sleep problems, it could be gut issues, digestive problems. And so also with mitochondrial issues, we’ve got toxins. So if you’re not using 100% organic, that’s an issue because glyphosate and these other pesticides and herbicides, fungicides and insecticides— they all compound with each other. So it’s not that one chemical by itself will kill you, but if you get a little bit of glyphosate from your non-organic berries, you combine that with a little bit of conventional vegetables coz you did a salad at a restaurant, you combine that with in antibiotics that you’re getting from meat. If it’s not labeled “no antibiotics” you stock all those upon each other, you’ve got some bad mitochondrial problems here that you need to fix. And we can measure the—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. The enzymes that are needed to help move those gears that  kinda crank around that mitochondrial Krebs cycle and then flow in so the beta oxidation process. Uhm— you need certain nutrients. You need B vitamins, you need magnesium, you need zinc, the healthy levels of amino acids. You also don’t need all the toxins— the aluminum, the pesticides, the glyphosate. So those things can kinda gunk up the gears of that metabolic machinery. So it’s not only what those gears need to keep it lubricated, but what it is we don’t need to put in that will prevent those gears moving. So it’s a combination of avoiding certain things, right? And again, the medications are a double-edged sword. I’m not saying don’t use them. I’m saying just really make sure they’re— they are prescribed specifically for what you need. And it’s the last case kind of thing with antibiotics. We really want to go to herbs and botanical nutrients over antibiotics. They may have a time or place, but we want to use it only when we’ve exhausted other options.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well said. And you and I were talking off air, we can quantify a lot of this stuff, too. So you’re talking about measuring your temperature. We can quantify what’s going on in the gut, right? We can test the gut, we can test the thyroid with—with blood using functional reference ranges and using functional numbers that conventional doctors don’t use. They’re only going to detect disease. We’re going to detect the issues before disease occurs. We’re gonna look into the gut so we could test you for infections. We could test the adrenals, look at your free cortisol rhythm so the uh— HPA axis, the hypothalamus, pituitary adrenal axis, you hear us talk about, you know, that is a factor in all of this. If your brain is not connecting the signal to the adrenals and adrenal to the thyroid, that whole system gets often chronic stress. And it’s up to us to figure out when we talk about stress what’s in that bucket. Is it just your job, your bad boss, your relationship, the divorce you’re going through? Is it that stuff only or is that stuff plus chemicals in the diet, plus nutrient deficiencies, plus infections, plus not having enough quality meat in the diet.  You see how these things can all add up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And just to kinda look at the thyroid component again, there’s dysregulation up top where the TSH is either high extreme, higher extreme, low. Now it can be extremely low because you’re on thyroid hormone and the body needs more thyroid hormone. The body is sense— sensing more thyroid hormone in the brain, but there’s less than the actual tissues. So that you’re keeping the thyroid hormone higher, but that’s keeping the TSH low. That’s step one. The TSH may be low because of HPAT access dysregulation. That hypothalamus pituitary and that adrenal thyroid axis. There’s some kinda short-circuits happening in there because of the stress— the emotional stress, because of the physical stress, because of the chemical stressors. And we have to address those while we support the nutrients to get this hardwire back on track. We can also have low T4 levels. Coz if T4 is low, we’re gonna have low T3 over here. So we got to make sure the nutrients for T4 in there like I mentioned before the vitamin A, the zinc , the copper, magnesium, selenium, uhm— amino acids, tyrosine and potentially iodine. As long as we know that there’s not uh— autoimmune attack that’s the lease active going on. And then number three, after that, we let see how the T4 to T3 conversion is. If T4 is good, how does T3 conversion look? Is it this big drop off? Or also is there a very high amount of reverse T3 because of that stress? All those can make a big difference. And then one person ask here—James asks, “Well, is hypothyroid and hyperthyroid hypo and hyper kind of the same for treatment?” Yes and no. With hyperthyroid from a TSI thyroid stimulating immunoglobulin or TSH receptor antibody attack, we’re more concerned about coz it tends to be more chronically high which can increase the chance of a thyroid storm and then potentially a stroke. So we take that very seriously. We refer that patient out to their medical doctor uh—for monitoring. We don’t want—we wanna make sure there’s not a stroke going on. But typically, the treatment will be, you know, PTU. Uhm—basically  uh—propylthiouracil or methimazole. Things to basically block iodine uptake to make thyroid hormone. Or though— you know, typically, go to a thyroid radioactive thyroid kind of ablation or even a thyroidectomy. I’ve had patients where we’ve been able to avoid those because we give nutrients to help modulate the thyroid response and modulate the autoimmune response like carnitine, like blue flag, like lemon balm, melissa uhm—into certain adaptogens. They could also help kinda dampen that response. There are some protocols that even show higher amounts of iodine can block that sodium uhm— iodine’s import that transfers iodine into the thyroid. So there’s a couple of different protocols you can use to help. And of course, all of the diet and lifestyle things are the same. But we take the Grave’s autoimmune attack a little bit more seriously just because of the repercussions of it not being treated appropriately, what will happen, we really want to sidestep those.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. So get the TPO antibodies checked. Get your eTG antibodies checked, you talk about the TSI. Now, have you seen where TPO TG would be high at the same time as TSI? Where it’s gonna look like Hashimoto’s and Grave’s at the same time?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It could. I’ve seen it before.  Yeah. It definitely can. So get—we’re  gonna really get patients on an autoimmune protocol to help lower any autoimmune attack from the food, from the gluten, from the leaky gut. And we’ll also work on blood sugar stability coz high and low blood sugar fluctuations have a major effect on the immune system.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Now another person asked here, the reason why you know I’m such a huge fan of how we do our podcast is coz it’s literally on the go and we’re infusing questions from people on YouTube here right into the conversations. So it’s like—remember those books you read when you’re like a kid and you read it and it’s like, “Oh, if you want the character to do this, turn to this page. If you want the character to do this, turn to this page.”  You can totally change how the book goes.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, it’s kind how our podcast are. So interjecting here uhm—, Gerald asked, “What about T3? How does T3 work?”  Well number one, T3 can just help support low T3 levels. And if there’s some kind of conversion issue, that can kinda biased time to fix the conversion aspect, number one. Number two, giving that T3 in the Wilson protocol uhm— that can have some effect on clearing out the receptor sites. So that now the T3 works better and binds better uhm— in the future. You can do that by starting low and then tapering up, holding it and then tapering it back down. In the Wilson protocol, Dr. Dennis Wilson does that with time-released T3. But we do a glandular’s in it. That can still be helpful as well. We’re using that as a way of clearing out the receptor site but were also not, you know, thinking that that’s gonna be the only issue. We’re also banking that there’s other things that we’re gonna be fixing that will allow it to be a long-term solution, right?

Evan Brand: Got it. So you’re saying the thyroid glandular’s can be used for low—a low  T3 situation.  That’s the fix that’s going to get you better enough to keep moving the needle in other departments.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Correct. Like in my line, we have Thyro Balance which is a—a really glandular uhm—nutrient thyroid support from a glandular perspective. And then we have that we have Thyro Replete which is nutrients for the conversion. So there’s some herbs that help with conversion like coleus forskohlii and ginseng and then we have the nutrients for conversion that I mentioned—the vitamin A, magnesium, copper, zincs, selenium—all of those—and tyrosine’s. We wanna make sure all those are in there. Uhm so we hit it from all angles. I mean if we knew exactly what that missing like nutrient component was, we could hit it more practically. But it’s too difficult to do that.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You’re better off using multiple methods to hit it. That way the patient can get better faster.

Evan Brand: Agreed. And you mention the adaptogens. I’m so glad you did. We use those all the time. I take them every day in some shape or form, whether it’s ashwaganda, holy basil, shoshandra. There are so many options and people ask, “Well, can I just take a bunch of adaptogens and fix myself?” Uhm— it doesn’t work like that. You just want to use them as one piece of your toolbox. You still want to be getting to the root cause. So adaptogens are life-changing but if there’s root causes, you can take all the adaptogens in the world and it won’t fix you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’m gonna take my ashwaganda right now—

Evan Brand: Perfect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A little bit of immune support. But I mean, like yeah, if you’re doing okay and you’re like, “Hey, Dr. J and Evan talked about some ashwaganda and some of these nutrients. I want to try it out.” Fine, go ahead.  But if you’re actively having issues that are you know, the symptoms that we mention here whether it’s on the hyper or hypo side, you really want to get someone on board to help guide you because it’s never just one magic bullet. It is—it’s a whole bunch of things that we’re doing together. And the more chronic it is, the more you have a you know, that momentum working against you. You got overcome that inertia to stop that— that snowball effect and start pushing it back uphill. So, yeah, if you’re in pretty good shape, fine you know just try some of these things. But if you’re in not so good shape, you want to reach out, for sure.

Evan Brand: Yep. Cool. Oh, we got time for one more question. Uh James said, “It’s not a thyroid question.” He’s taking an antibiotic for root canal this week. “Will this affect the result of organic acids test and stool test if he collects the samples while antibiotics are still in the system?”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I mean if we’re doing some of the genetic base testing, it shouldn’t have an effect on it. If we’re doing a stool base to antigen-based testing, then it would.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So you should be okay but we’re doing the G.I. map which is you know, what my go-to is. It should be okay according to the lab. I try to avoid it— doing it. So I would say in a perfect world, if it’s not gonna delay your treatment, I would say get to the antibiotics give it like a day or two to let it wash out and then do it. But if uhm— timing doesn’t work out, just do it, get done.

Evan Brand: I would also look at Mercola root canals and read about those. I mean maybe you’re too far down the rabbit hole and you can’t avoid the root canal. But you know there are some other options you may have available if you’ve got a good biological Dennis maybe will sit down with you and say, “Okay, root canal’s option A but maybe there’s a option B C you could look at too because we’ve had a lot of people to come to us with infected root canals and maybe Jessica can speak on this a bit. But I’ve seen it as a big needle mover for people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. There’s a book by Ramiel Nagel that talks all about root canals. It is highly recommended. You take a look at it. Uh— fat-soluble nutrients, vitamin A, vitamin K are very helpful. Uh—oil pulling that kinda help extract any toxins that may be in there and you don’t want a root canal you want to get the tooth pulled out. Uhm— you want to get an implant put in using biologically appropriate material. You don’t want the gangrenous tissue still in the system without the blood flow. And the immune response to be able to get it is just a harboring place for a whole bunch of bacteria and viruses to hang out.

Evan Brand: Right. Yeah. Well said. So James, look into that. Maybe it’s not too late. Uh—hopefully, you’ve got some other options you can pursue it’d be much— much safer and much healthier in the long term. That way, you don’t have a hidden dental infection. There’s a guy named, Simon Yu that you and I should reach out and interview. He’s over in St. Louis he talks a lot about hidden dental infections. I think that’d be a good show.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay. Absolutely. Hundred percent. So couple of things we wanna talk about. Oh, also carbohydrate, I think is important. Again, my bias is towards a lower carbohydrate template—Paleo template. And again, I hate the word “diet” because it assumes something is temporary and it assumes that it is fixed; where a template gives us flexibility and modification and may change day to day. It may change uh—meal to meal. I tend to be very lower carbohydrate my first two meals of the day and then after that, I may increase in carbohydrate at nights uhm—you know a bit of the starchy based. So I’m very strict during the day. It’s high-quality. It’s— set—it’s 60 to 70% fats, the only carbohydrates are vegetables and then good proteins and then I go higher at night. On the carbohydrates side, maybe a little bit of sweet potatoes and some butter and cinnamon or maybe I have a—some dark chocolate or have couple more berries than I normally would. So there’s that component. So I always go lower carbohydrate to start because so many people are insulin resistant just because of the fact that we eat too much carbohydrate and were inflamed. So I always go lower carbohydrate to start and then typically, patient will do be better and will feel better because insulin resistance can affect T4 to T3 thyroid conversion, which can cause lower temperature. Now, in the double edge side of the fence, if people go too low insulin, they may also get poor thyroid conversion as well. So just like I mentioned cortisol has a major effect on thyroid conversion. Well, guess what? Insulin has a major effect on thyroid conversion. Type I diabetics— guess what? With low insulin levels coz of the autoimmune attack to the beta cells of the pancreas, they have low body temperature. So if you go too low carbohydrate, and this is for certain individuals not everyone, I know people are gonna be like, “But I’m low carbohydrate and I felt great and it reverse my low temperature.” I get it. Again, there are exceptions to every rule. There are tall Chinese people that play basketball even though they are more shorter in the population. There are exceptions to everything, okay? We got to get that in. So yes, there are some people that a low carbohydrate diet, the majority I would say would help partly because our consumption of refined carbohydrate and sugar is higher, but there are some people when they’re chronically load, they may increase that carbohydrate just a bit. And that ups the insulin a little bit which then helps that thyroid conversion. They’re like, “ Dude, my hair started to grow back better, my temperature’s better, my energy is better.” Boom! You at least now figure it out for you. So exceptions to every rule, figure it out. And uhm—if you feel great going low-carb, great, keep it there, hang out. But if you start getting some of those hypo temperature symptoms, then we’ll just ratcheted up a little bit.  And I primarily ratcheted up starting at night.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: They’ll still get the benefit of keeping it lower carb during the day.

Evan Brand: Well said. I mean that’s me in a nutshell. I went very, very, very low-carb ketogenic, I guarantee. I was probably ketogenic most of the time and then I started to get cold and so I added in some starch with dinner and all of a sudden my body temperature’s perfect now. I feel good. So uh—if I go too low-carb again, it may come back or if there’s a huge piece of stress on my plate, the low body temperature may come back. But for now, I’ve been able to reverse this and been able to clear out all the infections with your help in terms of protocol a couple of years ago getting rid of all my gut bugs, plus supporting adrenals, getting the diet dialed in, getting my sleep improved, blacking out my room. All of those things are still important. So I hope this has been helpful. I gotta run. You’ve gotta run, too. Uhm—or are there any last questions that we could answer? I closed out the chat window. Uh there’s just one thing I want to say is it’s not about being higher carb or lower carb, have a –have a foundational template which you— which you go back to and then you can customize it. And then if you increase carbs, you can still get some of the benefits by having that first 20 hours of your meals relatively lower carb, higher fat, moderate protein and those last four hours you pop up a little bit and so you can still get some of those benefits. If you’re like, “Oh, I feel better with higher carbs.” You can still get the benefits of the first 20 hours of your day kinda in that ketogenic state and then pop up the carbohydrates later. So it’s not an either or thing. We can kinda straddle the fence but we want to customize it. I don’t give a crap if—if low-carb is your missing link and being low-carb all the time helps you, that’s what we’re gonna do. If being low-carb and a little more high carbohydrate helps you out, I don’t care. I’m all about the results and not about what tool I have to use to get the job done.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. For me that looks like the breakfast like a pastured sausage, maybe a handful of macadamias, maybe a handful of organic blueberries. Lunch—I  probably do some leftover steak and veggies like a big thing of broccoli with some butter. Dinner— that’s when I may do some type of pastured meat, a little bit of some veggies and then starch, so it could be a medium-size baked sweet potato, butter, cinnamon. That’s all it takes and I feel good. So just to kind of give people an idea what is that look like. That’s what it looks like.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. That’s great. And a couple of questions here. Uh— Stephanie talks about menopausal women with lower estrogen and a low estradiol vaginal tablets. Well, this is interesting because typically low estrogen can cause hot flashes. And why does that cause hot flashes? Because typically the FSH and the LH starts to rise in the pituitary which is that signaling hormone trying to yell to the ovaries to make more progesterone and estrogen. So when LH and FSH primarily FSH goes high, that can create some vasodilation effects and create the hot flashes. So by giving a little bit of thyroid—giving a little bit of uhm— female hormone support, we can drop down that FSH then we can also modulate the receptor sites with some herbs as well to help with how flashes. Whether we use maca, or  we use dong quia, or black cohosh or raspberry root, or shepherds purse. There’s different nutrients or herbs we can do to help modulate that. So again, you could still have hypo, low thyroid issues, but have menopausal issues because of the low estrogens, which could drive the hot flashes up. So it’s kind of a conundrum. The hot flashes may—may overshadow this low thyroid thing over here. So as we get the female hormones fixed, you may notice the low thyroid comes back later on because it’s just not a secondary issue and the primary issue is the menopause. Once that’s ruled out, now this one comes to the surface.

Evan Brand: Got it. Well said.  We should probably do a whole show just on low estrogen if we haven’t.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think that’d be great. I mean, I see estrogen dominance is a big problem.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Where estrogen –the ratio of estrogen is higher than progesterone, right? So progesterone should be like this 25 to 125 times more than estrogen. But if that ratio starts to creep up where estrogen gets higher, that’s estrogen dominance. The problem is a lot of people, though, where that ratio—they’re estrogen dominant, progesterone’s slow but estrogen is also low. So they get this estrogen dominant, but also low estrogen sums at the same time. So it’s kinda like this conundrum. It’s like this little tug of war that’s happening there.

Evan Brand: Wow. Put it on this to do list. It sounds like it’s gonna be a fun one for us to dive into more. And I’ve probably got some stuff to learn from you on that topic as well.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think it’s great. Well any last questions, comments, or concerns, Evan?

Evan Brand: No. I think this has been good. People, you got to get the testing run because if you don’t test, you’ve guessed. So if you’re trying to figure this out on your own, even if you’re not working with Justin or myself, then get the test run. Find a functional medicine practitioner they can take care of you. We are accepting new clients, so if you do need help, feel free to reach out justin health.com evanbrand.com We run these labs on all of our clients because it’s the foundation. We’ve got to have the data. We’ve gotta have the puzzle pieces on the table; otherwise, you can’t move the needle. We could throw a bunch of random stuff at you might help, can’t hurt, but we want to get you better. There’s a systemic process that we do step by step by step to take you through this. So happy to help. Reach out if you got questions and thanks for tuning.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh! One last thing, man. I forgot to add.  This is so important. Low calories.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Just not eating enough calories will cause low body temperature. It’s shown to cause a low level T3. Now this is important because if your diet is 25% crap Ola and let’s say you’re eating 2000 calories a day and then we switch you over— we switch you over to a uh— autoimmune kinda Paleo template, but you’re only able to—to—to switch over 75% of your diet because you don’t—you don’t have enough you—you can’t replace all the crap that you’re eating with the good stuff, right?

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Because if you’re eating a whole bunch of crappy carbohydrates and stuff and then you replace it with a whole bunch of really good vegetables or lower sugar foods, well guess what? You’re probably didn’t replace the calorie amount either. So now you got this 25% calorie deficiency. So now instead of having 2000 calories, right? Now you’re having 1500 calories and maybe metabolically you need 2000 calories. Now you’re 500 calories in the hole which means your 500 calories deficient of various nutrients. So now your metabolism goes low coz there’s less fuel. That’s important. I see a lot. So you gotta  work with someone that really can make sure you’re exchanging the foods and you’re getting enough calories as well. Coz calories equal nutrition. if you’re eating real foods.

Evan Brand: I’m glad you mentioned that. That’s such a simple but common issue. If you’re going AIP, you are going Paleo, you’re eating real foods, you could have an entire plate full of broccoli and it may only be 50 calories.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Dude, great job. Way to kill it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And of course, the infections like you mentioned can really suck down the energy. Of course, acute infection, you know, you’re causing a fever, right? Because the immune system’s trying to up regulate itself because a lot of the bacteria and crap there uhm—they’re like—they’re mesophilic. They—they thrive in a medium temperature. So when you go a little bit higher, you can actually kill them off with a higher temperature. But these chronic bugs can really deplete the energy the body and create this kinda lower temperatures as well. For sure.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And I went—I went to low-calorie for a period of time, not intentionally, not on purpose. It just happened. I was eating meats, I was eating veggies and  I track my calories for a few days and I was eating m—and my activity level  and all that. I was probably 4 to 600 calories deficient. So just added in an extra tablespoon of butter here and there, half of an avocado here and there, handful of nuts and seeds. And I was right back up to where I needed to be.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Like here’s a seesaw right?

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So if like carbohydrate is here, if carbs go lower— this is fat over here. The fats have to go up.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you keep the fats here, you keep the fats on—on this side low, and drop the carbohydrates, that’s where the problem happens. The fats also have to go up. That’s the biggest issue. Proteins typically stay in the middle. Typically, proteins only go up if you’re doing a whole bunch of protein powders because proteins and fats are intimately connected. Uh so if you’re eating real whole foods, you know, it’s hard to get just proteins in whole foods, unless you’re doing maybe like venison or rabbit or like boneless chicken breast. But if you’re eating full fat foods, you’re gonna get fat. And then if you’re adding fats to your vegetables, you’re gonna get extra fat without the protein there as well.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So keep that at the back of your head.

Evan Brand: Perfect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Anyone listening here, give us comments below. Give us some shares. Give us some likes. We want to hear thoughts in the comment section. If you’re listening to us on iTunes, that’s great. Click below and subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can see Evan and I’s mugs going back and forth in our little combos here. And then you can give us some comments below here on YouTube. We love the see the feedback. And Evan, hey man, you have a great day. We’ll talk soon.

Evan Brand: Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Take care. Bye.

Evan Brand: Bye.

 


 

References:

justinhealth.com

evanbrand.com

https://justinhealth.com/products/thyro-balance

https://justinhealth.com/products/thyro-replete/

http://www.curetoothdecay.com/

Bryan Timmins – Adrenal Testing and Biohealth Labs – Podcast #140

Dr. Justin Marchegiani welcomes Bryan Timmins, one of the founders of BioHealth Laboratory, in today’s podcast. Listen as Bryan Timmins shares information about the Lab’s new glucose testing and other available tests and methods.

Gain knowledge about the Cortisol Awakening Response’s connection to stress and learn about the different practices to help manage the nervous system, which is the fundamental warehouse for every other health process.

 

In this episode, we will cover:Bryan Timmins

1:31   Glucose versus Lactulose Test

10:00   How BioHealth Came To Be

15:27   Cortisol Awakening Response

20:49   How Waking Affects One’s HPA Axis

33:30   Sleep as the Next Microbomb

itune

 

 

youtuve

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hey there. It’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. We got a great podcast here today. We have Bryan Timmins here, who is the founder of BioHealth Labs with his father Dr. William Timmins– Bill Timmins the late great Bill Timmins, uhh – Timmins here. And Bill wrote the book, “The Chronic Health–“ uhh– “The Chronic Stress Crisis” many years back. He was a mentor of my good friend, Dr. Dan, and I’ve learned so much from Bill over the years, even though he’s been – I think he’s passed over ten years. Is that correct, Bryan?

Bryan Timmins:  That’s right, ten years ago.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: He’s helped so many physicians kind’a mold their way of treatment and care for patients and really uhh – you know, change and molded the whole way functional medicine is today. And we have this lab that’s left over that’s a great treatment modality tool to assess stress and gut function. And I’m really excited to talk about that with you Bryan.

Bryan Timmins: Well, thanks for having me Justin. Uhh  – you’re uhh – you’re a very, you know, valued client and friend of ours. And uhh– just– you know, talking to you recently about how I first learned about SIBO from you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, that’s great.

Bryan Timmins: First look into SIBO testing – SIBO Breath Testing, I was online. It was your video that I watched about five times, taking notes to wrap my head around it. So it’s a pleasure to be with you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, it’s great to be here. And I do appreciate your guys’ new test that’s out the Three-Hour Test with the Lactulose. And also, what we’re talking about some of the newer technology that you guys have with the glucose testing, which is great. Because that gives us a window more into the upper intestinal tract where the Lactulose gives us the window into the middle to lower part. Is that correct?

Bryan Timmins: Yeah, that’s right. With – with the glucose, because it absorbs faster you are getting upper, and you’re also – and which is believed to be a bit more specific to the bacteria that are putting these gases out. Whereas, with the Lactulose, we’re getting the distal of the colon where the bacteria are more common.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Common.

Bryan Timmins: So, you know, best case scenario, you actually did both. And when we released the glucose here in the next few weeks, we are going to offer a combo in which uhh – you can get both. Credit requires some commitment, you know, you need to take pla– Plan it. You need to plan it. Plan a few days whether you’re gonna be on a strict diet, uhhmm– you know. But what better way to look for SIBO than to do both tests. And we’re gonna make sure there’s a nice discount associated with uhh – you know, patients that are getting both tests.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great. And regarding the SIBO test, you typically have patients going on a lower FODMAP diet at the time, are there certain foods you’re telling them to avoid or to – to eat?

Bryan Timmins: Uhh – yes, specifically, you know the 24-hour preparation diet limits the preparation significantly [crosstalk] to some proteins, white rice; I mean it’s very, very limited…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: …which for some people, you know, will not be a big deal, but I think for the average person, it’s going to be a bit of a planning stage. And, you know, my advice, I’m sure it’s yours as well, is for patients who doesn’t necessarily have a nicely-controlled diet, not to try and do this overnight and treat it like a stressful event but to wrap out to it. You know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. [Crosstalk] Absolutely.

Bryan Timmins: You know. And start – start removing some things in the diet, maybe three or four days prior. But when you get to that 24-hour preparation period, it’s just go to be based on the instructions.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And typically, when I look at the SIBO testing as well, I’m always looking at parasites and gut infections as well. Because some people, you know, like you mentioned earlier, with the H. pylori, will always run the 401H, or an equivalent test, to make sure there are no other lingering infections, like an H. pylori, or a parasite infection like Blasto, or Crypto, or Giardia. Because some of those infections, you know, you may have collateral damage in and around the parasites, to give all these bacteria sputa of hydrogen and methane, and you may have a Phos. Positive, or, you know, Positive for SIBO, but maybe from a deeper infection upstream, what’s your take on– on the 401H kind of combining some of the deeper parasites stuff with the SIBO.

Bryan Timmins: Combining is, as always, great. I mean, as– as– as someone who’s dealt with all sort of colitis from almost 20 years, uhh– I’m– I– I will prioritize my resources to diagnose what’s going on between the mouth and the bottom neck.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Totally.

Bryan Timmins: [laughing] It’s– I mean it’s– what could be more– what could be more important uhh– from the health perspective then– then just that uhhmm– unless you have other known issues of Cortisol. We know that most health problems originated in the gut, so to have the gut as clean as possible, I think it’s a huge priority. I recommend that as resources are available, uhh – you know, I think doing the– the Pathogen Screening, the GI Screening, you know. With– with– with BioHealth Lab, and also with other labs, like I mean, I – I just think it’s that important. And I think, too, uhhmm – being in this business, I do understand that there’s no one answer when it comes to gut testing. I mean, some labs will market themselves as having the answer, but I’ve found with my own challenges that I was best served by doing as many tests as I could afford, uhhmm – and to get it some things – Uhh – and some of the gastroenterologists I was working with have the same attitude. Well we don’t have one lab we use. We’re going to try a few different tests because, inevitably, lab will miss things. Or in the case of, for example, some of the PCR testing, the sensitivity’s so extreme that we’re picking up things that aren’t even a problem. So– so– so it’s like putting the other a pestle, and I think it correlates to the severity of your health concerns.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know you guys have used the Stool Antigen Testing for many years, and I’ve always said you guys have probably the best H. pylori Stool Antigen out there. I mean, I’d test it out against may tests side by side, where it picks it up while others don’t. So that’s always great to have that. What’s your take on the PCR or the DNA-based Polymerase Chain Reaction Test. I’ll run some of them side by side with the 401H in your lab there, but which will you take on?

Bryan Timmins: Well, I believe it has enormous promise [crosstalk], and, you know, we– we– we want technology in medicine health care to be joined at the hip. What I’m always shy about though is the shining new toy. And I can see a lot of clinicians rushing headlong to the things that are new and unique without really understanding them or appreciating what the real Science  is behind it. Because, to appreciate Lab Science , you need to sort of commit yourself to a learning process that most people aren’t willing to do. Uhh– I– I believe there is value to the PCR Testing. Now I can’t speak to one lab being better than the another. Uhhmm– we certainly looked into things ourselves. We…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Are you exploring? Are you exploring about doing PCR?

Bryan Timmins: Uhhmm– well we do have a couple labs close to ours that are not competitors that do a lot of R&D. And we– what we’re doing is we’re patiently waiting for a couple thumbs up from some scientists that we worked with, who have been looking at these tests. Uhh – don’t like the current technology setup, for one reason or another. And we’re waiting for things to a little more refined and do their own validations in house where they can truly…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: …correlates, not just to specutly healthy patients. But these subclinical cases that a lot of us are looking at. I mean, it’s one thing to have Clostridium Difficile and be in a region care. [crosstalk] And it’s another thing…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Bryan Timmins: …to have Chronic Stress Problems and what’s driving them. So if you want to look at the gut, uhh – you know, [stutter] you know what, a lot of it has to do with the clinician’s ability to understand that the Lab’s technology and Science and marry it to their own understanding of how the results are gonna affect their decisions.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Bryan Timmins: That’s why– that’s why we’re such strong supporters of our methods, which were upgraded. We’re not in the dark ages by any means. We have some very sophisticated gear, especially where our cultures are concerned, and our ability to – to do light targeting on – on organisms, get very careful speciation. We also, I can tell you, we picked up more Candida than the other lab, based on feedback I’ve been getting in that. A lot of it has to deal with the fact that we still believe that people have a value in Microbiology department. And …

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely.

Bryan Timmins: We have a – we have a lot of overhead on staff, how they qualify staff, including a public health microbiologist we’d had now for a couple of years, who’s amazing. There is a passionate commitment to finding things in our lab, as opposed to just flipping a switch on an instrument, and assuming that our findings gonna turn out great. Uhhmm–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s– yeah. [crosstalk] Go ahead.

Bryan Timmins: You know, we– we– we – I mean – just a kind of go on like the – the – the thirty-second BioHealth Commercial. They like, one of the things that makes us different is we really do believe in hiring passionate people [stutter] who really care about, you now, on Friday evening, going home and realizing that they made a difference that week. And if they don’t feel that way, we don’t hire them or we don’t keep them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Makes sense.

Bryan Timmins: And that extends to all departments, including microbiology. It’s not to say the scientific procedure shouldn’t be the heart and soul of the lab, but having both is a pretty powerful synergy.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I was able to get a hold of a forum with a couple of your microbiologists uhh – and parasitologists last year. Had a couple of clinical questions, and I agree they’ve always been the best, so I appreciate that.

Bryan Timmins: Great.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And coming from your perspective, it’s interesting, right? Because, your dad was this, you know, big naturopathic physician who is in the trenches working with patients. And I don’t think you have uhh – a clinician background, so it’s interesting how you guys came together. You created this lab that some of the salivary stress hormone technology, which 20 years ago, was relatively new. It is you in diagnostics, which is interesting. But it’s– it’s– did you guys create BioHealth out of the necessity to have tools, to help quantify and diagnose, and help treat these patients? How did all these come to fruition.

Bryan Timmins: Well, as you mentioned, uhhmm– my dad, Dr. William Timmins, is a naturopathic doctor, and uhh– you know, the book, which is available for free download, by the way, on biohealthlab.com

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Great.

Bryan Timmins: Uhhmm– it’s– it really tells the whole story, including the first chapter which is his story. Uhhmm – in interest of time, I would like to try and really, you know…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: …condense this. But this is the guy who’d pretty much retired by 40…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: …because of his success in real-estate. He was a master blackbelt. Uhh – recognized in some countries as what’s called an assassin because his training was done in such a high level.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s crazy.

Bryan Timmins: Uhhmm– so picture this man with extraordinary physical health. [crosstalk] Just uhh– just a beast. Sweetest guy in the world, too, for those who knew him. You know, a very sweet guy but very tough, very fin– very wealth– off– financially. He bought 30 acres in the mountains in Oregon, Set up a studio to teach martial arts to the people in the area, and, you know, he was remarried at the time and had a couple of kids from her. Fast forward, a year later, divorced, 160 pounds, couldn’t live anywhere because he would have symptoms, rashes, headaches. Just a mess, and he ended up going to a Henrotin Hospital in Chicago, where they put him in an environmental-sensitivity unit. And that’s really determined he had uhh – environmental illness.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Molds, right?

Bryan Timmins: Yeah. Multiple…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: …Chemical Sensitivities. I mean, everything. He can’t even get close to like uhh – a Ghettoblaster, you know, like the old stereos with the battery-operated things without feeling himself get weak.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Wow.

Bryan Timmins: So he ended up going out to the desert in Southern California.and living in a special community, and started researching and building himself back up through diet and tight trading food in this whole thing. And then it was uhh – a brilliant man, uhh– Bill Keles, who operated a clinic in uhh – San diego, who put the pieces together and said, “Bill, you know, here’s what you’ve got and this is what we’ve got to do.” And they built him back up, kind of like the six-million-dollar man. And – and rather than go back to real-estate or whatever, my dad’s like, “I’ve got a lot of people to help.” You know, that was his spirit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Bryan Timmins: And uhh– So he– he, you know, became a naturopathic doctor, opened up a clinic and became legendary for helping people that have to drag themselves through the door, and had been there, done that with every clinic, and, you know, travelled the world, gone to Costa Rica to the…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: …and, you know, whatever. He would get everybody, uhh– that would– I mean, he had stage four cancer cases. You know, people with , [crosstalk] people with giant tumors, who two years later were personal trainers and dynamic, living a joyful, successful life. So, how’d this all come forward uhhmm– not as condensed as I’d hoped. I was doing software development in Northern California in 1999, during the dotcom boom, and while I was truly enjoying myself, you know, even to this day I still, you now, I love coding and I think it’s a beautiful thing. Uhh– it was– it was unsatisfying for the perspective of sitting in a chair all day and having intense work schedules and deadlines that were just, you know, excruciating. The timing was right. My dad said, “How would you and my wife Alicia actually, how would you guys like to move– move back down to San Diego and work without sadness?” And so my dad and his wife, John, we– the four of us started doing this thing and it would – we started by brokering labs. So we went to Metametics, which at the time, diagnostics, other labs and Institute of Parasite Diseases, and we put all these kits together and made training programs for doctors. And that time, it was called Functional Medicine Center. Well, this became successful. 1999, we decided to have our own lab and our own dietary supplement company, and so BioHealth Lab and Biomatrix were born.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great, and that’s amazing that I never had a chance to meet your dad but, he’s had such an impact on me, and I tell thousands of patients, I know many of my colleagues he’s had an impact on. So it’s crazy that you may not even meet someone but still have– be touched by their– by what they’ve done here. So that’s great. It’s a great legacy to pass. I appreciate that, Bryan.

Bryan Timmins: Yeah, indeed. Thank you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well that’s kind of twitch key ears here, you guys come up with some newer technology and that’s really cool. It relates to the the lot of the stress, physiology that most people experience that fight or flight people are in daily with this adrenal stress from foods, from infections, from lifestyle, and emotional stressors. And that’s the new Adrenal Testing. And one thing that you guys have looked at is the Cortisol Awakening Response, which is basically looking at Cortisol, your stress response when you wake up, and then looking at it, remember correctly, one hour later, really looking for that 50 percent job in Cortisol. And that gives us our big window into our HPA Axis, which is the brain, the hypothalamus and the pituitary talking to the adrenals. Can you talk a little bit more about the uh, Cortisol Awakening Response?

Bryan Timmins: Yeah. So, uhh – just a quick backstory is warrant to, you know, since 1999, we’ve been doing the Cortisol measurements, you know, four Cortisols, that sort of timeframes during the day, doing DHEA-Sulphate as the most basic stress assessment to assess how the body’s respond to stress to give us some clues what the drivers of the stress might be. And it’s a monitoring tool for lifestyle changes, therapies and so on. Uhh – about a year and a half ago, we were challenge by one of our colleagues. We’ve been doing a lot of research. It’s that Dr. Tom Glolliams.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: Uhhmm – you know, Tom called me and said, “I want to give you a heads-up. I’m working on this book, and bottom line, it doesn’t seem like any of your labs know what you’re doing because the Science doesn’t support the collection times, the units of measurement, the precautions, uhhmm – the ideal adrenal fatigue.” So he came at me with all this information that I kind of loosely aware of. But you know, you get busy. You get complaisant. You know the test are helping people. If it’s not broken don’t fix it. But you challenge us to upgrade across the board. It really challenged all the labs, and we took the challenge. And we – we felt it was just that important and exciting, frankly, to make these changes. And, you know, besides the taking a second look at the nomenclature, the way we talk about the test, the idea, “Are there really three stages? Is …”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Bryan Timmins: … there really a reserve of pregnenolone that can be stolen in favor of Cortisol. You know, there are always things that we all believed in…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Bryan Timmins: …that simply became questionable. But, like rubber meets the road where the clinician and the patient is concerned, evaluating the HPA Axis, we realize that– bottom line, Justin, Science , Science , Science . ‘Cause as a lab, we have to have a kit, instructions, a return shipping, temperature control; we need to have reports with details that are all rooted in Science where you can go in PodMed and see support for that. So – that’s why we went away from our menu of Adrenal Stress Testing was based on ideas we’d had for many years, which were good. Don’t get me wrong. And I know you’ve had experience with those tests, you know their value. But we saw this as an opportunity to leap forward and get more precise and really refined in what we’re doing, so. Like for an example, uhh– for patients watching this, who’re doing this tests, it’s very important that the first sample be done 30 minutes after waking. Why? Science. We know that that’s the highest– that’s the peak of Cortisol production over a 24-hour period.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The first 30 minutes?

Bryan Timmins: Actually, at the thirty-minute mark. So, the patient wakes. There’s a timer. At thirty minutes, we’re going to get a consistent number that’s representative of that – the peak of Cortisol. So that DHEA-Sulphate and that the units we used for that– you know, a lot of these new ones is. And also the waiting instructions are written, uhh– the advice on how to accumulate the saliva in your mouth that won’t interfere with the test– We took a look at a lot of details, make sure they’re reflective on our instructions, which ar very attractive, very friendly. We have very sophisticated packing materials, because you don’t want to leave certain analytes at room temperature, ambient temperature, vulnerable to heat and temperature swings. So, we done all this to improve the quality and the scientific integrity of what we do. But Cortisol Awakening Response is really the big deal here. And– and the reason is uhh– the way I like to think of Cortisol – well, first let’s define what it is. Uhhmm– right before we wake up, we have what’s called the uhhmm– I may mispronounce it, I think it’s a Suprachiasmatic nucleus.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Nucleus, [crosstalk] yep. Exactly.

Bryan Timmins: Yeah. It’s a part of the brain that’s like uhhmm– boring up the car. It’s like the first crank of the key to start the engine, that’s– that’s it. it’s getting ready because the brain is getting ready for the day. And if you take life and you break it down, what is it? It’s one day at a time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep. Absolutely.

Bryan Timmins: [stuttering] It’s almost the most stressful event. I hope it’s not, but the first stressful event you have in your day, is waking.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely.

Bryan Timmins: Waking is a stressor. Uhh – you know, bottom line. So, measuring the dynamic of how waking affects the HPA Axis– or I should say, how the HPA Axis responds to waking. And the challenge of the day ahead is an amazing tool to look at how resilient and strong the Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Adrenal Axis is. There’s been always concentration. I understand why people want to keep it simple, and get– get through the day. But it’s not about adrenal, adrenal, adrenal. The adrenal’s an important part. You know, they produce hormones in response to signals from the brain but with the Cortisol Awakening Response, you have a natural rise and fall of Cortisol. And the way to measure this empirically is to have the patient collect a small– tiny amount of saliva within five minutes awaking, and then set the alarm, unless you’re a great clock watcher to watch the clock. Thirty minutes later, they get a second sample. And then another 30 minutes later, 60 minutes after waking, you do the third sample.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So we can [crosstalk] basically zero…

Bryan Timmins: Then what will…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …30, and then 60. So three samples in that first hour. Is that correct?

Bryan Timmins: That’s correct.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Good.

Bryan Timmins: And so, what we do is we report that curve, reflected against what we know from the literature, would be the healthy– the healthy curve to have. So instead of a single Cortisol, which just tell us about production, you know, the amount. This is like a movie compared to a photograph. We’re getting a dynamic picture here. We’re doing a mini stress test, really. Uhh–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And– and what should we be seeing there, so for a baseline here, is that a 50 percent bump at zero to 30? Is that what we’re looking?

Bryan Timmins: The range is– is around 50 to 70 percent, I may be off this coach. Uhhmm – and then again, you know the literature is guiding this. The studies are gonna take a while to have the healthy inclusive, you know, populations and kind of do it ourselves. Uhhmm – but the 60-minute should come down to less than 30– about 35 percent of the morning. So, you want to see it go up to uhh– you know, roughly 50 percent, and you want to see it come down, not to the morning level, necessarily, which is quite rare to see in the literature, but around 20 to 30 percent above that morning level.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So let me give the listeners an example here. So let’s say, we’re pumping out about ten units of Cortisol at zero minutes, at waking. So we should be at about 15 in about 30 minutes, and may be back down to 12 at 60 minutes. Is that a good example?

Bryan Timmins: It is. What that would demonstrate is that under that stressful event of waking, we have a nice rise. Okay, I’m ready to start the day. I’m all – Everything’s turning on. You know that’s that peak.  Everything’s turning on and getting ready. Now, if that 60 only drops by five percent, well, that’s an example of [stuttering] a hyperactive HPA Response. Like you’re not able to chill out. You’re having a trouble getting down and calming down from a very– you know, from a basic chemical level. And so, that’s exciting to understand why. Another example will be, you go from that zero measurement, and it barely goes up. You know, say, it only goes up 20, 30 percent. Well, that’s a sign of somebody who’s probably in burnout. And as, you know, chronic health issues, and– and perhaps a great deal of mental-emotional stress. And that’s a perfect opportunity for me to mention something else that makes our test very unique. We’re not just showing you the zero measure, the 30-minute measure and the 60, against guidelines that can be used to help the interpretation if the patient has uhh– an exaggerated HPA response, adole-depressed HPA response. We also have a survey, and I just happened to have one here because I’m doing the test myself. I like to do our tests on a regular basis…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Nice.

Bryan Timmins: …for variety of reasons. But we have this uhh– we have this survey. What it is– it’s the perceived stressor rate. There’s a psychologist by name of [phonetic] Collin, who put up one of the most well-established subjective questionnaires and all of psychology and psychiatry. It’s uhh – a ten- question survey that asks you during the last month how often you felt that things were going your way, how often you felt you’re on top of things, how often you felt nervous, uhh – difficulties piling up so high you can overcome, and then it’s rated from zero (0) to four (4). Now the total score is fixed into a three-third scale. Uhhmm – on the low end, you’re [stuttering] you’re pretty on top of their stress, pretty mellow, you recognize that life can be hard but you’ll not gonna get all twisted about it, you got people sort of in the middle, kind of go either way, and then you have what we’re seeing [stuttering] as a [laughing]. The truth is surprising, because the most of questionnaires are getting people feel very stressed out and out of control. You know, coming to us for help through these things. And uhhmm– you know the high perceived stress core correlates very well with Cortisol Awakening Response results. So when we see somebody, for example, with the exaggerated Cortisol Awakening Response, it’s like, you know, a really high escalation, like, “Oh, I’ve got to deal with the day. It’s so stressful. I’ve got my boss, I’ve got my divorce, I’ve got my taxes, I’ve got this, I got that.” I’m gonna start right there and just get to something that I have personally think the sole key to all of this. And uhhmm – I know you heard me talk about this before, and I’ve heard myself talk about this before, ‘cause I’ve talked about this everyday with doctors. I feel like doctors and patients alike, are looking for [stuttering] is it a parasite that’s making this happen, or uhh – is it heavy metal toxicity that’s causing this problem? Uhh– is it my diet? More than anything, it’s our mental-emotional condition that’s driving all of our health issues. You know we talked in a previous conversation about how a dear friend of ours discovered that he had cancer [crosstalk] when he had some surgery going on. And if he’d never been told, he’d still be here today.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Bryan Timmins: Instead he went – he lasted three months. It’s his mind-body connection. So what’s amazing about the test we’re doing with the Cortisol Awakening Response, and the perceived stress core, is– is  a patients can look at this on paper and say, “That’s me. I’m not handling my stress well. Uhh – I’ve got these problems whether they’re with work, family. Well, those tend to be the top two, right? Or – another– for me, one of my favorite examples is the Road Rage Mentality.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: Now I live in a rural area. You know, very, very peaceful where– when people complain about the traffic, I just shake my head, I’m like, “By the way, 30 seconds for the light of change.” Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: But uhhmm– even in a place like this, where compared to say, a big Metropolitan area, you think there’d be no complaints, you will have Road Rage over somebody– I think my example’s being cut off.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah.

Bryan Timmins: You know, if ii get cut off, I just back off a little bit, create some space, keep listening to my music, talk a little bit with my kids, if they’re in the backseat. I mean, really. Why even let your heartbeat shift? That– it’s an attitude. You know, it’s an attitude. And I really believe that that’s just one of the many examples that I can provide of how our mind, our mental state are building to deal with stress, to deal with it coming, to deal with it happening, to deal with it behind us, I feel like that is the undercurrent that really feeds all– you know, every mechanism of health and homeostasis.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think a lot of the tests that’s being done here are really getting a window into our parasympathetic and our sympathetic nervous system, so we have about 20 milliseconds for our frontal cortex to override that road rage. You know, uhhmm– a reaction to go chase that person down, right? And the more we have that parasympathetic system that’s strong, we can override that sympathetic response. So, the sympathetic response in my– in the example you gave where it’s too high for instance, where you get that Cortisol Awakening Response that pops up and stays up, that’s like you’re driving a standard but it can only go one way. It only can go first to second, second to third, third to fourth, fourth to fifth, but you can’t downshift. So now you’re stuck in that high gear, and you can’t whine down. You can’t relax. You can’t turn off. And then the opposite, where you’re stuck in first gear and you can’t go from second to third, third to fourth. You can’t generate the energy. So with the testing, it’s kind of like driving that car, right? You either can get up to max speed and deal with stress but you can’t whine down, or you can’t get up and deal with stress, anyway. So, I think some [crosstalk] of the testing is great, ‘cause it gives you a window into that. And then from there, you can work with your clinician and say, “Hey, what are the things that we can do to help improve that parasympathetic response, or dampen that sympathetic response?” Now, I want to hear…

Bryan Timmins: Why not?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: …some of the things that you guys recommend at the lab, and what you’re seeing clinicians do and that’s really helping with that. Let’s say, let’s give two examples. The Cortisol Awakening Response that goes high and stays high, and the one that just can’t get it up.

Bryan Timmins: Right, right. So, in the first case, you have uhhmm – you know, what’s called an elevated car. Uhh – aggravated, hyperactive HPA Axis. Again, starting with the mental-emotional is so critical. I know it’s one of the hardest areas, not just for– for– well. I mean, it really is very hard area for people, in general, because it really means facing your own stuff in a pretty honest way, which, you know, a lot of us don’t want to do. And I know for clinicians, it’s hard because they’re not necessarily trained in psychology…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Bryan Timmins: …or with spiritual counseling or anything about nature but I would say that is extremely critical. Is– I do know providers that have extensive questionnaires and– and inquiry process with their patients to understand what’s going on in their lives. You know, do they– are they caregivers? Do they have really difficult jobs? Do they have uhhmm– have they lost someone recently very close to them? How are they dealing with that? That’s fundamental. Uhhmm – beside the mental-emotional side of that, and much of course, you know, you want to get tangible. As much as we may prescribe, you know, Prilosec for a certain condition, we need to prescribe relaxation for patients that are stressed out. Uhhmm– [stuttering] it’s so basic and fundamental that it’s often overlooked. You know, even uhh– I think, to some extent, disregard it, like not really taking it seriously. All about, you know, “Mrs. Johnson, you should meditate 30 minutes a day.” Well you should. That’s mind blowing. You know, if anyone’s ever committed to a series of meditation, you never want to go back to not meditating.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Totally.

Bryan Timmins: There’s so many practices that can help, as you said, to manage the nervous system, which is the fundamental warehouse for every other health process we have. Besides that, certainly, changes in diet. That’s a very personal thing to different people and clinicians like I can’t really cite examples. There’s so much disagreement over what’s what. Uhhmm – the sleep factor is an amazingly important thing. In fact, it seems like a– we know a couple of researchers in this trade, and they feel like sleep is the next microbomb. It’s something we do, you know, for third of our lives, pretty much, and– but people don’t think about it. Uhh – a great example in the room right here right now is beautifully lit by natural light and so forth. But at night, it’s black.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: You know. It is as black as black gets. And I have uhh – a blue, a very lux blue lamp that I turn on If I need to get up, because I don’t want to be shocked. You know, that kind of thing’s really critical too. Getting into the – getting into sleep, because if you can optimize sleep, you optimize everything.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Totally.

Bryan Timmins: Change your sleep; change your life. I mean really, it’s so true. And there’s so much work that can be done on sleep. And of course, you know, some of our panels offer melatonin, which is a great indicator of how well you’re shutting down at night. Uhhmm – and night stimulation, like, I struggle with my daughters to get them to get off the screens in a certain hour. They don’t want to hear it. They don’t want to hear Dad talk about HPA Axis, they just want to finish their game, or, you know, FaceTime with their friend. But I try to explain to them that you’re not really sleeping…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: …when you over stimulate yourself like that.  You’re not getting the resting repair.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Or at least get some of those blue-blocking sunglasses on them that will help block some of that light.

Bryan Timmins: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That’s what I mean. That’s– that– that’s a great invention. And really, that’s been another cornerstone of this device. And then of course, what’s the other, you know, pillar of lifestyle exercise. And I think again, that’s another great personal thing. Uhh – I see things lately online just crack me up, but people are going over the health effects of rebounders. Some people claiming it’s bad for you, or doesn’t do anything, or doesn’t raise the heart rate. Others claiming it cured their cancer. I mean, we just have to get real with ourselves and figure out what works for us. Balance it, not spend ten hours a week researching, listening to talking heads and bloggers, no offense. But [laughing]…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Apply. Application. Do it.

Bryan Timmins: Yeah. Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Just do it.

Bryan Timmins: Just do it, and figure out what works for you. Now, getting away from lifestyle mental-emotional, obviously, they can be drivers of chronic stress that are contributing to these dysfunctional patterns. Whether it is, the one– you know, the first example you want me to address, which is that, as the elevated or it is the blunted, the blunted of course is more of a sign that you’re in a what we use to call Stage Three Adrenal Exhaustion.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: You’re just slumped. But I will – I can tell you that you can still have healthy Cortisol levels, a healthy production of Cortisol and still have a blunted CAR – blunted Cortisol Awakening Response. It’s really important to understand that the Cortisol Awakening Response is telling us how your HPA Axis, how resilient it is, how well it manages challenges. It doesn’t necessarily concern yourself with the level of Cortisol output. Uhhmm – but let me go back to my point. Inflammation – huge, huge, huge. In fact, most of research has been done on the drivers of HPA Axis Dysfunction, or based in inflammatory cascade. So of course, we know that GI infections are huge issue there. We also know that, leaky gut is a…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Huge.

Bryan Timmins: …a contributor to HPA Dysfunction. And why do we have leaky gut, because the intestinal barrier’s been eroded by uhh – the classic examples I think most people can resonate with would be like gluten-intolerance, lactose-intolerance. These, these, what should be healthy crips like this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Microbila, yeah.

Bryan Timmins: All this work, think it all crumpled up and they’re trapping parasites…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah, _______ absolutely.

Bryan Timmins: Yeah so, the– the basics apply. They really do, you know, uhhmm– I think that no matter what data we have, or even if we don’t have any data, right? To take my lab out off and be just a regular guy, and if you never did another lab test, you know that you do the right thing to support your physiology, and to return the homeostasis. Now where lab testing comes in is when you want to measure your progress empirically, which is a beautiful thing. And that’s my favorite thing about lab testing actually is I’m not wondering if I’m getting better. Maybe it’s just a subjective reference point that I have. And this has improved over here, so I feel better. So my perception is different of this. The lab tells you how it is, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. And it’s really out there. You can put your finger on, you can touch it, and then you can try some things. And then come back three to six months later and see how you’re doing and see a change. Just that’s – it makes it real.

Bryan Timmins: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that’s what you’re doing. You know, worth it.

Bryan Timmins: Yeah. It’s like a [stuttering] it’s like a, you know, it’s a metric. It’s a true, you know, personal health metric that you can control, and for some reason it just got me thinking about how some patients will end up doing dozens and dozens of tasks before they have, before they end their team of helpers, you know the clinicians have that ‘ahuh moment’. And that’s what – my heart really goes out to that people because it’s so stressful to get better, which is in itself is not helping you to get better. Uhhmm – and that I also see people benefit dramatically just by getting on a hormone replacement program.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: It just seems to turn things on, gives them the energy and the mental acuity to start seeing things a little more clearly like wow. I bet I’ve had parasites all this years from that travelling I did in India, when we’re drinking water out of the tap. Lo and behold we go in, and you know, we find Cryptosporidium parvum on every single sample. Uhhmm – you know, obviously the list goes on. And again, you know, those of you viewing this, definitely go to biohealthlab.com to the patient section and you can download the book, Dr. Timmins book.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Bryan Timmins: And I think a lot of…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Stress Crisis?

Bryan Timmins: Right. Chronic Stress Crisis. I think a lot of what we’re talking about is addressed there in a really, you know, direct and solid way. Because also of the drivers, you know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Up with the links and everything in the description, yes, people can easily access it. And I think you did a good job. Let me just summarize some of that. So we have physical, chemical and emotional stress, the emotional stress of the relationships, in meditation and in gratitude, in appreciation – all those are very important. We have the physical stressors, which can be too much or too little exercise, chronic pain and such. And then we have the chemical stressors, which is, these can be under the surface. This is where it’s great to have the labs to pick up maybe H. pylori or Cryptosporidium parvum, like you mentioned, or Adrenal Dysfunction or Heavy metals or low thyroid, or even uhhmm– a little sensitivity, right, and nutrient deficiencies, low statin enzymes. So all of those things could be under the surface, and could be a driving stressor. And just summarize on the higher side of the CAR, right, if we have the Adrenal’s response and it pops up high and stays high, maybe we could use maybe Adaptogenic herbs…

Bryan Timmins: Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: … Ashwagandha, etc., Rhodiola, maybe a certain ginseng. We can use certain nutrients, like GABA, ALPHININE, or Magnesium, or Phosphatidylserine. On the low side, we may use morLicorice. We may dial in Pregnenolone and DHEA dose according to your labs. We may use certain B-Vitamins, B5, Pantothenic acid, uhhmm– thiamine, B6, B5B – all those really good nutrients. Is there anything you wanted to add to make physical supplement to take on that we can add in there, Bryan?

Bryan Timmins: Uhh– well, certainly a well-rounded mineral supplement…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Bryan Timmins: Is– is [crosstalk] key, uhhmm – some targeted amino acids, which I know affects everyone differently. I’m a huge fan of L-Theanine. Uhh– I take large doses of that, and it makes a huge difference. I take it with Thyroxine, uhhm–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love that.

Bryan Timmins: It’s a really neat synergy. But, no, you actually nailed it, uhhmm– with what you listed because uhhmm – even in Dr. Pulliam’s Book, which consolidates most of the relevant research, [crosstalk] what you listed is represented there. I got that book right over here. Think I can see if I can almost reach it, but, yeah, it’s a great book. And I agree. He does put a lot of info on the Pregnenolone steal. What may not be like that stolen building block per se. it really just be that the physiology shifting in a more catabolic you get from stress, the more hormones do tend to go down the stress side. It may not be this building block phenomenon, known as the Pregnenolone steal

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We’ll put some info below.

Bryan Timmins: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ve done podcasts and videos on this topic, so  we’ll put those below too.

Bryan Timmins: Okay, cool. And just to underscore one thing you mentioned uhh– the adaptogens.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Bryan Timmins: They’re phenomenal. and [stuttering] I wonder why more and more people aren’t making that part of their daily regimen and prioritizing it, because it really is. You mentioned Rhodiola, Ashwagandha, you know, it’s key. It is the key. I know this when I forgot to take mine. I mean…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Bryan Timmins: …like really, really am a believer of those products.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think that’s great. Now looking at BioHealth, I know you mentioned a couple other tracts that you guys were on here. You talking about doing some – adding some more thyroid lab testing. Can you talk about some of the thyroid lab test you guys are adding to your profile?

Bryan Timmins: Uhh– I can and I can’t…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay.

Bryan Timmins: …to tell you the truth, because there’s a lot of research and development happening right now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: And uhh– what I will– I will tease you with this. The BioHealth is aiming to offer the most comprehensive thyroid pal at the best price, and you won’t need a needle in your arm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Does it beat the CRT Lab. I’m using the CRT for my patients that can’t get to a LabCorp quest lab. Similar to that?

Bryan Timmins:  Uhh– [stuttering] It’s the– it’s in the same category.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Okay, coll. [crosstalk] how much longer you think?

Bryan Timmins: Let’s leave it to that [crosstalk].

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: End of the year?

Bryan Timmins: What’s taking time, uhhmm– you know, we’ve done a lot of the important works just working with serum. Uhhmm – now, there’s more on D that’s necessary with these proprietary devices to get to the point where we’re ready to go. But it’s really going to be revolutionary. We’re also gonna be applying this technology to everything from  uhhmm– hormones, to food allergies, heavy metals. It’s really exciting but, you know, given the nature of its status, I really can’t talk more on it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Got a [inaudible] thyroid.

Bryan Timmins: Obv– [inaudible]

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I’ve got a Thyroid book coming out, so make sure you hit me up so we can put it in there in the uhh– the Appendices for a resource. I love it.

Bryan Timmins: Yeah, beautiful. When we’ve got it, you’re gonna hear all about it. I’m being mysterious right now but [laughing] it’ll be a different game when we get it out there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s great. Now there are some other Adrenal test that are out too. Now I would use the 201 and the 205, I’d say for like seven or eight years. I’ve been using the Dutch a little bit more recently, and looking to come back using more of the CAR Testing just because of its unique zero-30-minute-60-minute protocol there. And I think the salivary testing is great to do midday. When people are at work because some of the Dutch Testing or the Precision Analytics Lab, where they’re doing the dried urine’s – Hard to do that in the middle of the day when you’re at work, putting some paper that you pee on, letting it dry. What’s your take on the Dried Urine’s Testing Comprehensive Hormone Test that’s sold by Precision Analytics? Any thoughts on that?

Bryan Timmins: Uhh – well we do have thoughts on it. we actually have a paper on our website, uhhmm – where we address – we have a series of papers. If you’re on biohealthlab.com and you go to the HPA Stress Profile Section, you will find a few papers on that right margin, where we compare saliva to serum to wet urine and to dried urine. And when we engaged the – a couple PhDs to help us with this, they didn’t want to do anything on dried urine because they said there’s just no Science  to support that it’s valid in any way, shape or form. And you know, in all fairness, there is no peer reviewed literature in existence that supports Dried Urine Testing. Uhh – but you know, we tried to be open-minded. Uhh – I mean, sure. It’s a competitive industry but I’m not really that worried about competition. Uhh – my life is not about being worried about competition. I’ve more interesting things to do. But we did take the time to write a paper. And what was interesting about it is if you look at the three papers, the serum comparison and the wet urine I think they’re like two to three pages. The one that compares dried urine is like 12. And that’s because, the people we engaged we’re pretty passionate about the topic. And I think the paper price speaks best for itself. Uhh – it will be interesting to see what happens with uhh – the Dried Urine Testing in the future. The uhhm – yo know, the main – as I said earlier, we’re always interested in continuous improvement. We’re always veery excited to see things getting better. But it has to be based  on Science .

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now the benefit…

Bryan Timmins:  And it has to…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Go ahead.

Bryan Timmins: …have proof that from – all the way from the kit, the material that’s used, the stability all the way to how it’s reported, and certainly the claims being made about the physiological-clinical relevance. All of that has to be based in Science. And what I would suggest is, you know, take a look at the paper that we produced in that context. And unfortunately, the people who worked on these papers, who are some of the household names, in like hormone research, refused to put their names on it because they felt there was a conflict, because they’re researchers and we’re commercial.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Bryan Timmins: So uhhmm –  the paper would surely have more impact if some of these names are on there, because they’re well-known individuals. But it is what it is. People should just look at the references that we’ve cited and really ask themselves uhhmm– is this accurate?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I appreciate you’ve given me that perspective. I’ve done and used both labs, so I appreciate all sides of it. I mean, the benefit with the saliva: it’s easy, it’s accessible, you get access to the free fraction of the hormones, typically represents about two to five percent of the hormone. The difference with the urine: you can get the free, you can get the total, get the 95-98 percent, you can get it in the metabolite form. And again, that’s where some of the discrepancy is, the urinary metabolites, can you backtrack it and get the free testosterone equivalent of that. Is that a big discrepancy with the urine versus the saliva?

Bryan Timmins: Well, you know, I’ve – the information is – is – There’s a lot of information there. But what is the real clinical value. What are you gonna do differently, if you know it? And every time I ask a clinician out there, there’s a bit of a head scratching. And then, I mean, if we’re just creating more of a mystery, I’m not sure we’re helping the patient. But I would go back to basics. Uhhmm – you know, the collection device itself. The normalization of Creatine. We referenced numerous dietists that point out the weakness of the materials that are being used, the collection times, the value clinically, and uhmm– the – there’s very specific studies that target, you know, this idea of urine on filter paper and how you would end up normalizing the Creatine. Uhh– again, you definitely want to check out that paper because it breaks down a lot of detail. There’s uhh – there’s a lot of conflicting issues there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think you’ve given us some really good info so far. I’m gonna reference those studies in the description below, so people want to get into the need to read if they can.

Bryan Timmins: Absolutely.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So is there anything else you want to address here today before I let you go?

Bryan Timmins: Well, uhhmm– you know…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Anything important you want to address?

Bryan Timmins: I can obviously just run along about our lab tests but I think we’ve done enough of that. Uhhmm– you know that the only thing that comes to mind is how important it is. I realized that most of people watching your podcast are people that are, you know, not health professionals, I know you’ve had a lot of health professionals who follow what you do, but you know the majority are what we would call patients in our universe.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: People that are trying to feel better, trying to seek help, is much as for 20 years I’ve been, you know, in this business of Lab Testing, dietary supplements, a lot of science quality assurance, quality control, everything that comes with it. And I’ve seen everything from the most highly sophisticated TedTalks on mitochondria regeneration to how meditation helps migraine, headaches, and everything in between. You used the word in this call that I think is worth a fortune. That’s gratitude.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hmmn. Yeah.

Bryan Timmins: You know, uhhmm– there– I admit people around the world who suffer so dearly in their life situations because of where they are, the situation they’re in. But the smile on the face, putting the stranger first, conveying love in all their energy. It’s so phenomenally powerful to our health, uhh – physically, mentally, spiritually. It’s untouched, you know. We can talk about driving here all day long, we can talk about, you know, Cryptosporidium. But I’ll tell you what, if you don’t start your day and finish your day wiith gratitude, uhhmm– I know I’m not the first to say this, my gosh. I mean, Ghandi, Tony Robbins, one thing many people have had in common is getting back to this point. It is amazing stuff. Especially if you do some of the Tony Robbins tricks, like the purposeful walking…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Huge.

Bryan Timmins: …and talking out you’re verbalizing your gratitude.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Affirmations. Yeah. Visuall–

Bryan Timmins: Completely transform uhh– your consciousness, and elevated, and [sigh] It’s good stuff.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think so.

Bryan Timmins: if you ask me what’s important, I cannot think of any more important at the moment.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And it’s amazing, ‘cause you know, you guys  being a lab and a hormone company, right? You know, looking at all these hormones, but it’s amazing how your hormones and your neurotransmitters get affected by something simple as an attitude and gratitude. So that’s– I think it’s …

Bryan Timmins: Yeah. Let’s not forget, what programs the hypothalamus – thoughts.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yep.

Bryan Timmins: Attitudes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Which affects dopamine and GABA and serotonin – all those things. Just a random act of kindness, just by doing something random for someone, you actually boost their serotonin, you boost your serotonin. Anyone that actually watched the act happen, their serotonin gets boosted too. So yeah. You can do all these really cool things and fix your hormones uhh– and neurotransmitters naturally. Let’s give it a good boost for sure. That’s great.

Bryan Timmins: It’s powerful.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So last question for you here, Bryan. If you’re stuck on a desert island and you only can bring one supplement, one herb, one nutrient with you, what would it be?

Bryan Timmins: [thinking]  I normally go with first though, best thought but, I really have to go down the rat in the hole on that one. Got stuck on a desert island, I would have – we actually have a product called Adaptaline.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh. 

Bryan Timmins: And it’s a Adaptogen formula. We talked about Adaptogen this earlier. I think there’s something magical. I’m a huge fan of Ashwaghanda. In fact…

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love that.

Bryan Timmins: …if I could only have one uhhmm – botanical, that’s what it would be.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love Ashwaghanda. Indian Ginseng, Indian Sanskrit for “to impart the strength of the horse”. I mean, how– how fitting is that?

Bryan Timmins: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome, Bryan. Well, website is biohealthlabs.com, is that correct?

Bryan Timmins: Uhh – no ‘s’ just biohealthlab.com.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: biohealthlab.com, is that what’s inside BioMatrics one?

Bryan Timmins: BioMatrics one. Either the number or, any.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Perfect. Then we’ll put all the notes in the descriptions on the references in the transcription site. Anything else here, Bryan, before I let you go?

Bryan Timmins: Uhh– no. I just want to thank you. Uhmm– yeah. Love you as a friend, and you’re a great client, as well. And just keep up the good work, and thanks for having me.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Thank you so much Bryan for this great information. Have a great day.

Bryan Timmins: You too.

 

References:

http://biohealthlab.com

https://www.facebook.com/biohealthlab

twitter.com/biohealth

https://www.youtube.com/user/biohealth

Free eBook: The Chronic Stress Crisis

Immune System, Tapping Technique and GI infections – Podcast Live with Dr. J and Evan | Podcast #131

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand engage in a lively and informative discussion about their recent clinical successes with their patients using the functional medicine approach. Listen to them as they dig into the root cause of their patients’ issues and turn chronic and seemingly complicated problems into success stories.

Know about the tapping technique which involves turning something negative into a better, positive thought. Learn more about GI infections, the bacteria or parasite that may be involved, as well as the tests and treatment options that are proven successful in the functional medicine world. 

 In this episode, we cover:

 03:50   Immune System, bacteria, and infection relationship

 15:50   Tapping Technique

 19:17   Treating Hypochloridia

 24:10   GI infections

 28:34   Enzyme Tests
 
itune

 

 

youtuve

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We are live on YouTube here. Podcast live on demand. Also, live here on Facebook. Evan, how are you doing, man?

And again, Facebook people you gotta click on the link here uhm—I’ll put in the comments to see Evan’s pretty face and go back and forth on this. How we doing, man?

Evan Brand: What’s going on? I’m feeling really good today. We’ve got a blue skies, the trees are blooming which they probably—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome.

Evan Brand: a year ago in Austin. So I’m enjoying myself.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very good. So we got podcast on demand. So anyone wants to write in some suggestions as we chit chat here, we’ll figure out what exactly we want to talk about moving forward.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And I might as well post a link over here to my Twitter page and see if uh—people are paying attention over there. That way, if they’ve got questions, they can get them answered here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it. Totally makes sense. Same thing, anyone on Facebook, too, every  chimes in first we can get this thing moving. But let’s uh—just talk about some clinical successes in the last week with patients. Any updates from you, man?

Evan Brand: Yes. So interesting update is uh—there’s a female client that comes to mind and she had seven, I believe, I have to go back at here stool test and count. But I believe it was seven infections and this is a combination of two parasites which—let me just pull it up, that way, I’m not just shooting into the dark here, but—Uhm— with these infections, we started a gut protocol and symptom improvement was seen. She was having a lot of irritable bowel symptoms uhm— running to the bathroom. So she showed up with H. pylori, Blastocystis Hominis, Entamoeba and Fragilis and Proteas  and Citrobacter. Somehow, cal protectin level was still low  which is intestinal inflammation where—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: –I look at but I was surprised. And so anyhow, we put her on this protocol. And this is like 8 weeks.  And the H. pylori while it’s still positive, instead of two viral factors, now she’s got one viral factor. The level of H.Pylori has dropped. The Citrobacter is completely gone. The Proteus completely gone. The Blasto is completely gone. But we still got Entamoeba. So there’s still the parasite and there is still the H. pylori there. So we’ve got work to do but yet, we’ve seen 3 or 4 things disappearing. So I think what the takeaway message is from me is that the bodies gonna heal in an interesting way. It may not heal everything at the same time. Some things may be easier to kill. Some things may disappear first, but you gotta heal yourself especially your gut, your microbiome. You gotta heal these things in layers. And that’s what we’re seeing here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So typically with a lot of patients that have chronic issues is there are some underlying stress, right? Emotional, physical, chemical stress but even deeper above and beyond that, there is some level – there’s some level of  infection that’s deeper that creating inflammation even though it didn’t show via calprotectin or it’s just creating leaky gut. And the whole leaky gut mechanism is getting the immune system fired up. The more the immune system is fired up, it’s just an energy suck for  your body. It’s like uhm—let’s say guests in you guest bathroom that you never go into your house. And they just leave the water on. Just a little bit—little drip, drip, drip. And then you get your water bill at the end of the month, and you’re like, “Where the heck did that bill come from?” And you’re like, “Oh, yeah. The faucet’s on.” But it’s like that with your energy resources. When got these bugs, it really—when the immune system is overactive. And even just a leaky gut, right? The more your immune system is overactive, the more it’s gonna suck your energy dry. That’s why when you get sick, the first symptom you get when you get sick is what? You get a lot of fatigue and malaise coz the immune system is sucking resources. Go ahead—

Evan Brand: I wanna hear uh—a recent case from you, but first I wanna ask you the question that I get asked all the time. And the answer really doesn’t matter because we need to fix the root cause no matter what. But people often ask well– chicken or egg? Was it that ma—my immune system got taxed first? And then I picked up these bacterial pathogens or these parasites? Or did I pick up the parasite and the bacterial pathogens and then that that set my immune system? What’s your take? Can it go either way?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So typically it’s one of two scenarios, right? Typically someone gets exposed to a very high amount of infectious debris, right? Parasitic—parasites. So you drink some really bad water, you to go Mexico, you have really bad meal or at a foreign country, you get the Bali belly, so to speak. And then you’re overwhelmed with all of that infectious debris and then there’s so much of it that it compromises your immune system, you get diarrhea, you have a lot of gut inflammation that creates malabsorption. That malabsorption puts stress on all of your glandular systems and then you spiral downhill. That’s scenario number one. So just the infectious—the infection was so overwhelming, it just threw everything else downhill. Scenario number two is there some type of immune compromisation  that’s happening. Meaning adrenal stress, poor diet, poor sleep, or poor diet and lifestyle habits, low nutrient density. The immune system’s kinda a little bit weaker underneath the surface then you get exposed to some of these infectious debris at smaller micro levels that are in the food. And eventually makes its way to the system and creates inflammation.

Evan Brand: So yeah—so let me—let me clarify there. If we’ve—If we’ve got diet, lifestyle mostly dialed in, but let’s say people are cheating with gluten, for example. They still got intestinal permeability going on. You can still have good class, good sleep, blah, blah, blah. But if you’ve got just a simple thing like leaky gut, for example, you could potentially be more susceptible to pick up these infections regardless of whatever else is dialed in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean—here’s the deal with leaky gut, too. If you’re creating leaky gut, and then there’s some research, you know, on the non-celiac, gluten sensitivity side of the fence, that looks at these foods. Even if you’re not like reacting to a it, like symptomatically, and even if you’re not like having like IBS -like symptoms,  bloating, you know, gas constipation, diarrhea, that gluten can still create leaky gut. Where the undigested food particles in the gut can make their way into the bloodstream and create stress. And then the LPS that comes in there along with that, that’s the— the bacterial debris can get into bloodstream and create a lot of mood issues as well. So you can still have leaky gut and not risk from gluten— and still not respond to gluten in general.

Evan Brand: Yup. Yup. I just posted a post on uh—Facebook which I think might be a slightly controversial which was I wrote this little bit of a letter and I put kind of like these five things that have happened over the last year or so where people have said, “Evan, I’ve ditched psychiatrist or I’ve ditched my psychologist or my marriage counselor, or my conventional doctor because of functional medicine.” I kinda wrote the reasons why of how if you lower inflammation, you may need less adjustments at the chiropractor, for example. If you heal the gut, you start producing your neurotransmitters optimally, you might not you’re your antidepressants anymore, so you might not need your psychiatrist. Or if you heal your adrenals, you’re not gonna snap at your children anymore, so therefore you’re not gonna need the marriage counselor that is telling you need to stop yelling at your kids. And how basically how functional medicine can literally, not intentionally, but it’s just a side effect is that we can replace these other industries. I’m not saying these other industries are bad for mental health care or anything like that. But a lot of times, this is not root cause medicine. And my wife and I went out you with a friend of ours yesterday and she said she had a lot of stress, she had to put her dog down and she called up her psychiatrist and said, “Hey I need help, I’m freaking out.” What does he do? He prescribed her 60 Xanax and says, “Here’s your Xanax bars and take these.” And I told her, I said, “Listen, your anxiety and your stress from this issue is not a Xanax deficiency.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: How about we do some emotional freedom technique. We start tapping. How about we cleanup the diet? And then before we left, out the parking lot, I had her do the quick coherence technique, the Heartmath, like the heart focus breathing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And focusing on someone that she loved and we got done with it, and she said, “That was weird.”  I said, “What happened?” And she said, “I got tingly and warm.” I said, “Oh, it worked.” And she said, “What happened?” I said, “Well, you just took yourself out of fight or flight that you’re probably stocked in which is causing you to be dependent on Xanax and now we’ve pushed you into that parasympathetic rest and digest mode.” And she feels better. And this is what this is all about. Uh—a little bit of uh—off-subject uh—, but I just wanted to mention to people, check on my Facebook post and you’ll read about what I’m saying. I’m not saying these other uh— practitioners out there are garbage. What I am saying is that if you’re not getting a practitioner to focus on root cause, even if they are psychiatrist, if they’re not a root cause psychiatrist, then what the hell are they doing?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s all about resources, right? And in functional medicine world, we’re trying to help enhance your resources. So just like someone with more money in their bank account can buy more things, well if we enhance our mental, emotional bank account via healthy and diet and lifestyle functional medicine principles, we have more resources to deal with stress in our life. Whether it’s family, friends, being a parent, being present for our partner, just being able to do the hobbies of a hobbit—hobbits—uh—

Evan Brand: Haha

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The hobbies and the habits that we have going on in our life.  I got uh—I guess I’m missing my uh – Lord of the Rings movies there. Yeah. So—It ‘s all about resources, right? So we have to make sure that we have enough resources in our system so we can allocate them toward these stressors. And I always tell my patients, “Have you ever tried dealing with stress on 0 night sleep? or “Try doing your taxes the next day when you’re getting like three hours of sleep?”  You’re just  not gonna be able to handle it. You don’t have the resources. So everything we’re trying to do is let’s test the resources of our body systems, let’s look where the hormone’s at, let’s look at where the gut resources are at, let’s look at detox and nutrient resources are at, let’s support them and let’s work on fixing them.

Evan Brand: Well, the analogy I like to use is we’re just using a big spotlight. Because a lot of different industries and health care, what they do is they use like a little laser pointer or like one of those tiny little keychain flashlight. And they shine something real dimly into one corner. And you’re like, “Oh, Justin looks like we found something. We found some anxiety issues, here’s the Xanax.” But instead, we come in with a giant spotlight and we’re like, “Whoa, look at the left corner of this microbiome. We got parasitic and bacterial infections, which can steal your nutrients, can mess up your blood sugar and cause anxiety. Look over here,  we’ve got some adrenal issues. You got spiking of cortisol that’s gonna need to be addressed.” And then we shine the spotlight over here, “Oh, take a look at our detox pathways on the organic acids, you’ve got trouble over here.” And “Oopp, we shine the spotlight behind us, here’s mitochondrial issues. This is why you’re so fatigued.” And that’s the—I think that’s the greatest analogy. It’s a little laser pointer or a little small keychain flashlight, which is just pinpointing one industry of psychiatry or psychology or whatever versus exploring everything. Which is why for you and I, it’s tough for us to become the blank guy. You know people out there, “the thyroid guy” “ the detox chick” “ the bone broth chick” You know what I mean? It’s really gonna be tough for you and I to just say we’re the blank person because I don’t want to limit myself. I wanna let everyone know it is all encompassing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And if rest and niche yourself down, I think it’s a bad thing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Like from a marketing standpoint, right? Marketing is just telling the truth attractively. You know it’s good to have the niche because you wanna reach the people that have special conditions. Because if like, my specialty is thyroid. Number one, I have—I have or had a thyroid issue. It’s under control. Autoimmune thyroid issue. So I’m more passionate about that issue. But again, to treat  a thyroid issue, you have to be able to treat all of the systems. So it’s kind of a mythology, like you don’t just ever treat thyroid, you treat the whole thing. But you may mark and put information out there that’s gonna resonate and speak to someone with a thyroid issue more. But again, the underlying issue is from education and clinical standpoint. We’re addressing the key underlying surface issues and the deep root issues as well. So we’re never ignoring it. We may speak to someone uhm—more specifically and get into the more nuances of that condition, but it all comes back down to the foundational stuff that we always talk about.

Evan Brand: Right. I would say my specialties would be— it’s become parasites really. I mean, I’m seeing so many each week and it’s just so fun. I guess because I had parasites.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You had a parasite, you.

Evan Brand: Uh—Yeah. And also depression, I mean because depression is what got me into this whole thing. IBS and depression in college, I mean, like I told you before, I had to figure out when I went  into a college class, where’s the bathroom. Coz I have to get out in the middle of the class to run to the bathroom.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And so for me, depression, IBS, parasites, you know, those are all linked together—the whole gut-brain connection. And I really am empathetic for people that have struggled with that because it’s so common and if you diagnosed with IBS, that’s a pretty generic diagnosis. And unless you’re with functional medicine practitioners, you’re gonna get an acid blocker, an antispasmodic—

 Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely.  

Evan Brand: — or some other drug and—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well actually, you were diagnosed with IBS, right?

Evan Brand: I was.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And you use the antispasmodic, you used the medications that helps with the gastroparesis. You know—

Evan Brand: Well, they never –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: They even do that—

Evan Brand: Well they never got to use it. They try. They wrote me the prescription pad but I denied all three of the drugs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And the thing is, too, we can also use natural medicines for a lot of those things. That may not fix the root cause, right? There’s root cause medicine and there is using natural medicine in a way that’s gonna help alleviate the symptoms that’s gonna up regulate physiology so things work better. But we have to still be investigating and digging to the root cause, right? So we’re dealing with someone with gastroparesis or low motility, we may add in things like ginger. We may add in things like carnitine. We may add, you know, higher amounts of mag citrate to keep that uhm—migrating motor complex moving. But we are still digging in deep. We’re still making the diet, the lifestyle. We’re still enhancing digestive nutrients, uh—hydrochloric acid enzymes. And then we’re digging deep for the infections. And we’re trying to lock in those diet and lifestyle habits, right? The supplements are great because they can give us that symptomatic relief while we continue to dig over here to the root cause. So as long as you have, you know, that  four pace envision that addresses some of the symptoms without the side effects, you know of some of the drugs, which may have more side effects than what you’re treating, and then working on the functional medicine plan, I think we’re in a really good place. 

Evan Brand: I agree. Yeah. I actually got a good—good success with that IB Synergy product from designs which get Bonigut in there. It’s got the 5-HTP. I had a guy with just super bad IBS and I said, “Man” I mean he was critically, critically stricken with both diarrhea and constipation just alternating every other day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: So I have him going with that 5-HTP Bonigut blend. And he got better. Now we start to wait for lab results but yeah—I mean  sometimes we will do some of the quick fix of band-aid situations to fix things, but we still got to work backwards. I guess to answer these questions uh—should we answer the question about the cancer question here or shall we just make a whole show on the future?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. We’ll do a whole show on that. I’ll get some experts on. I got Dr. David Jocker is coming next month as well. He was in the truth about cancer series. And we’ll go on ketogenic diets and we’ll talk more about therapeutic ways to address cancer outside of just the natural chemotherapy. So we’ll hold that one that—we need more time for that.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Agreed. Uh—Samuel asked, “What is the tapping technique? Can you show us? Well since most of our audiences are gonna be audio listeners we’re not gonna take up the air time to show you the technique, but the best resources—EFT (Evan-Frank-Tom) EFT.mercola.com and you can just view the different acupressure meridians that you’re gonna tap. But then also, you’re gonna learn about the affirmations that you can use for emotional freedom technique and that’s something Justin and I use all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think it’s helpful. I’m—I’m gonna just give it 15 seconds of airtime here, so—just—I do two hands coz it’s adding it’s more efficient. But you just tap the  inners part of the eyebrow, the outer parts of the eyebrow, under the eyes, I do under the nose, and the bottom part of the chin the same time. And then I do both collarbones. So I do this, and you can go top of the head and tap midline. So I do two hands coz I just feel like you get more stimulation. So I go here, and I’m just thinking about whatever is pissing me off, my wife, I just think about it.

Evan Brand: Haha

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I kinda give it a number. So if I’m a t like 6/10 regarding irritation, I just think about it. Whatever that issue is, whether it’s like, you know, the person driving  in front of me is so slow  or whatever. And I try to knock that 6 out of 10 so that 10 is the worst.  6 is like 60% to being at the worst. I try to knock it down to a4 to a 3. And so every round—every 2 rounds or so, you kinda just check back in and see if you knock it down. And you go as you kinda knock everything down to a 3.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And we have—I—I start at the top of the crown which I usually like—many ways—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You can do that. You can start there, you can end there.

Evan Brand: Now do you do the sides? I know Mercola, he’s big on the side of rib cage under the armpit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I do that, too, sometimes. It’s just wasn’t good for a video.

Evan Brand: Yeah. So you criss cross?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I do two at the same time just coz it’s stimulation.

Evan Brand: No. I mean you criss cross your arms so the underarm’s like this. I do like a monkey.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Haha

Evan Brand: And then—and then finish with the wrist. I typically finished by tapping the insides of the wrist together then doing the affirmations. So even though I’m angry, or even though I’m anxious, I deeply love and accept myself. But you gotta say the affirmation verbally. I tell people if you can, if you’re just embarrassed, then don’t do it. But why be embarrassed? Nobody—nobody is paying that much attention to you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. That depends, too. Like you can do this stuff, and you can kinda say like if you’re at—let’s say, if you’re lying in bed and you’re just really stewing on something and your wife’s next to you and you don’t wanna wake her up, then you can just kinda think it in your head. And then you can just, you know, do the affirmations, tap like this.  And then you can tap here, and think about the issues.

I like them to end, though, with a positive thing. So you can end with something positive. So then I just go into like, “What is it that I want to manifest?” So I’m going into right there. I’m thinking about whatever I’m gonna try to create or produce in my life, I just tap it while I’m thinking about it. And the whole idea of tapping is you’re just stimulating various meridian systems that have been mapped out via acupuncture system for thousands of years. And really what it’s doing is it’s neutralizing the negative response that’s stored in the limbic system or in that subconscious of your—more in the psychological side of it. And you’re trying to kinda rewire it so you can get a good pattern there instead. So then, naturally that reflux is to go back to the better thing and not to the negative thing.

Evan Brand: So if you do affirmation about the bad part, would you do like an affirmation about the bad part and an affirmation for a positive?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes. So I start off with the negative and just try to lessen—lessen it first.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Coz if you’re—feeling negative, it’s really hard to be positive when you’re negative so I try to decrease the negative to about a three. And then I go into the positive because then, you are in a better place to deal with the positive, right? It’s kinda like when someone tells you to relax and you’re pissed off, like relax, calm down. You just wanna punch him, right? Like, “No, I’m too wound up, come on.”

So I wanna get that dialed in and then now I’m relaxed, now I can rewire it and create some positive things.

Evan Brand: I like it. I like it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So calm down first, and then work on manifestation.

Evan Brand: Should we answer a couple of more questions here?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Let’s hit it, man. Let’s hit it.

Evan Brand: Solam asked, “How long does it take to heal hypochloridia?”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It totally depends, right? If you have emotional stressors that are unresolved ore you’re eating foods that are incredibly inflammatory, maybe never. But if you’re making the root causal changes and your managing your stress, and you’re fixing the underlying gut stuff, I would say within 3 to 6 months, you have a really good chance of not needing hydrochloric acid to digest your food. But again, everyone is different. A longer—the longer the issues been going on, the more severe the infections, and the more infections that are layered in there, I’d say longer, up to a year, at least.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I’ll just have my two cents to that, too. If you had a previous history of a prescription, as a blocker’s proton pump inher—inhibitors are now it’s open to counter like the Xanax or the Toms, or anything like that, or—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup.

Evan Brand: Or if you’ve had H. pylori which we’ve chatted about many times, then I would say it may lengthen that time, too, to fix that stomach acid issue.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The longer that gut’s has been worn down, the more the immune system is revved up like you get patients are just supersensitive to every little thing. Like I can’t even put in an enzyme, I can’t even put in our apple cider vinegar or lemon juice or the smallest fermented food sets them off. It’s really hard and you’re looking at a couple of years to really dive into it because the immune system is so revved up and it’s so ready to attack the smallest invader that it’s so hard to put things into help and heal it because it’s looking at everything as a foe not a friend.

Evan Brand: Right. We really, really have the baby step in those cases so that’s why—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. Yeah. I mean, just like you heal, with you know, food is medicine there, you go really slow and you do lots of things in broth form, in soup form so it’s – so it is so palatable. There is very little digestion that has to happen. And typically one supplement at a time and one nutrient at a time, titrate up from low to high. Even if it’s something that they can handle, if they go high dose, off the bat,   their immune system just freaks out.

Evan Brand: Well I wanna hit on something you just mentioned which is if we’re talking 1 to 2 years, it takes extreme patient—extreme patience for patients and clinicians because for us, that is a very intensive case for us to take on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: And you know, maybe this is to toot our own horns, maybe it’s just calling out the obvious that we do take the time, you know, with people we’re working  with. Sometimes it maybe 30-45 even an hour-long call for a follow-up just to take these baby steps. Whereas, let’s jus say some of the clinicians that we’ve seen out there, it’s too cookie-cutter approach and they don’t have the mental bandwidth or capacity for empathy to baby step this people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: So it’s here’s your cookie-cutter protocol, good luck.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: Where with us, we’ve really, really, really gonna get super details.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And so this is why if you go and you buy like a leaky gut online program or some other type of program, and you get limited results and you get to us, we’re not gonna be surprised if you suffered through that, and you didn’t get a good result. Because at the end of the day, that’s why  Justin and I haven’t created  online courses at this point because it’s—it’s hard for us to sleep at night thinking that we’ve created a program that’s too cookie-cutter. We’ve really got to figure out a way that we’re gonna be able to work in all the minutiae and the small details and the variations—variation A, B and C, D for different people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: So if someone uh—packages something up all beautiful and says, “Oh, it’s $297 and all your problems are gonna be healed.” Uh—please be a little bit skeptical  of that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I agree. And I’ve talked to you about a patient that I had today that email in that was dropping out of care. And we try to always set realistic expectations. This person just had her labs reviewed a month or two ago, and had multiple parasitic infections, severe adrenal dysfunction, HPA axis dysfunction, and then a lot of issues on her organic tests. Uh— detoxification issues, mitochondrial issues, and we just started with simple adrenal support, made diet and lifestyle changes and she had some— some side-effects so we try to cut things down, go slower. And we’re gonna kinda reconvene and work on supporting detoxification, but person had dropped out. Now, the problem is, to have expectations that things will work off the bat when so many things are wrong like that, expectations are incorrect. So  a lot of people they have preconceived notions even if you spell it out to them and you let them know, “Here’s where we’re at now, here’s where we’re going.” They forget because they—they want it done now. And they think because things didn’t work in that initial uhm—in that initial experience, that there is no way to fix it. So continuing to harp on patients in managing their expectations, even though they have a lot of stuff they’re projecting from past failures, we kinda have to get through it. Make sure expectations are real and that make sure they know, “Hey, here’s where we’re going now. Here’s where we’re going next.” These things ahead that may have to be dealt with for us to really see great changes.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. We got another question here.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Let’s hit ‘em.

Evan Brand: Let’s hit Steve’s question. After all GI infections are eradicated, how long does it take the gut to fully heal? All my infections are gone, but I’m still dealing with IBS, leaky gut and issues after H. pylori.” I’m gonna hit on this first Dr. Justin Marchegiani, if you don’t mind.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yup. I know you’re gonna say it, by the way.

Evan Brand: Okay. So – haha if—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: If you say it—If you say it, I’ll—I’ll tell you that.

Evan Brand: Okay. Alright. Please. Alright. So here’s what I’m gonna say. You say all your infections are gone, but you’re still dealing with IBS, leaky gut, and issues, I would like to know what test was this that says all your infections are gone because I bet all of your infections are not gone.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes! Whoo! I knew it. Yeah. You’re totally right.

Evan Brand: Haha

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. You’re totally right. And then also, just making sure that you have the digestive nutrients on board to help heal the gut lining and the digestive support to break down the food and then I would make the food more—more palatable right now. I’d be looking more at the GAPS or an SCD or more of a soup or broth approach that makes the food really easy to take in. No raw veggies, uhm—try to keep it really palatable so the body can access it without much stress.

Evan Brand: Alright. So the beauty of the Internet, Stevie says—Stevie replied and he says, “DRG” Well, uhm— Justin–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s missing a lot of them. It’s missing a lot. You gotta do the DRG with the GI map. I a—I never do the DRG by itself for the most part—always both. You gotta do both.

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And if there’s still an issue with the DRG and the GI MAP, I want them go for the  41 side-by-side.

Evan Brand: Yup. Agreed. So, Stevie, not that—you know, we’re not diagnosing you. That’s not what these calls are for. But, hey, Justin and I have seen a lot of false negatives with DRG and some other test out there. So potentially some stuff going on. And I would like to add a couple of points about like the—the issues, the leaky gut type stuff. You know, make sure you are doing some of the easy supports, too. You know, chamomile is great. You can do chamomile in a supplemental form. You’ve got chamomile teas, uhm—you’ve got L- glutamine. So there are some leaky gut supplements that why your til—still trying to figure stuff out, you can still be taking support of nutrients in the meantime while waiting for retest.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. Totally. Let’s hit  the uh—last question there by—E Center Riley. See here, just diagnosed with Hashimoto’s, TPO and TGB bodies, 465 is that high? Eliminated the foods, gluten, dairy, soy, balance in blood sugar, hard with 5 kids. What should I focus on next? So 465 is definitely high. The LabCorp reference range for TPO is 34. Anything 34 above is considered positive—I think it’s above 34. 34 below is considered positive. And anything about 20, for me, I considered to be subclinical. So that is high. Anything above or around 500 is definitely high. I’ve seen patients at 2000, though. I’ve seen patients that go from 2000 to below a 100. Now, my goal is to get people—If I were you, I’d like to see a 70 to 80% reduction in that. Again, maybe you were higher before you made those changes. So I’m not sure if it was  gluten, dairy, soy. That stuff was cut out and then you saw the drop. But either way, uhm—getting enough selenium in there, 400 micrograms of selenium, addressing the underlying infections, things like H. pylori, Blasto and Yersinia can be coming to increase the antibodies. And then making sure the adrenals are looked at. There’s a strong adrenal-thyroid connection and a lot of people who have thyroid issues also have adrenal issues. And remember, TPO is a microsomal or essentially it’s uh—intracellular microsomal antibody that helps bind the thyroid hormone together. So if you’re making antibodies to that, it’s gonna prevent that thyroid hormone that I—Iodination process from occurring. So making sure we have the adrenal support there because the adrenals help produce cortisol. Cortisol is an anti-inflammatory that’s gonna help with the inflammation. And with the TPO there uhm—you could potentially have increase in hydrogen peroxide, especially if there’s small amounts of iodine getting in there. So get them the selenium will help neutralize that hydrogen peroxide into H20. High quality H20 which is uh—not gonna be as inflammatory.

Evan Brand: Well said. Yeah. And so uhm—Isabella Wentz, I just did podcast with her a couple of weeks ago. Actually that was my last uploaded episode. And uhm—we’re talking about bacterial infections, too. So you mentioned some of the parasites and she’s seen the same thing the parasite but also the bacteria. The Klebsiella, the Citrobacter, and all these autoimmune triggers has been bad guys for uh—these Hashimoto’s situations and these antibodies, so—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So, look for the bacteria, too, and you can definitely fix this stuff and you can make significant progress.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Absolutely. I mean one person here, wildlab access, “How do you test for various enzymes?”Number one, if you have gut stress, you probably have low hydrochloric acid. And if you have low hydrochloric acid, you probably have low enzymes. Why? Because hydrochloric acid is important for acts of—for converting pepsinogen to pepsin which is the proteolytic enzyme. Hydrochloric acid lowers the acidity of the chyme, which is the mixed up food in the intestine. That inten—that food that chyme that goes into the small intestine which the acidity then triggers the pancreas to make bicarbonate, it also triggers CCK that then caused that the gallbladder to produce bile that also stimulates the pancreas to make light based trypsin and chymotrypsin and all the enzymes that come down. So if you have enzyme issues, you also have hydrochloric acid issues, but we can also assess it by looking at enzyme markers, like elastase, too, which will uhm—look at that in the DRG or the GI MAP test.

Evan Brand: You better get that frog out.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Frog out. It just attacked me, man. I’m like, Ugh—

Evan Brand: Alright.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: My water—so uh—yeah. Elastase, I think it’s elastase 1 is the enzyme marker we typically look at for uhm— low enzymes. But typically, just assuming that we have digestive stress, let’s assume it for sure.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I mean that’s the same—the same answer that I would say for the leaky gut. I had people say, “Oh, can you test me for leaky gut?”  It’s like, “Yeah. We can go to Cyrex and spend 500 bucks if you want to, but based on your symptoms, I guarantee there’s intestinal permeability. You’ve got XYZ. And we can—we don’t need to spend the 500 bucks on that test. Save your money for the organic acids, your comprehensive stool panels, the GPL-TOX, maybe heavy metal testing. Save your money for that stuff that you can’t really guess on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. I agree, man. Well, anything else you wanna hit off the bat here? I mean I think—I had some really good successes last week, too, with some patients that had chronic pain, chronic mood, chronic energy, hair loss. And I mean—just really simple things. We—we fix their hormones, this person has autoimmune thyroid, uhm—hypothyroid as well. T3 was super low, it was uh– T4 to T3 conversion issue, dysregulated cortisol. They had a lot of malabsorption and they had a couple of infections and we just—we just took them down the map. An then just everything first time around, uhm—just knocked in place. I mean it’s like you swing the bat once and it’s connected. It’s gone. Those were the patients where its like, “It’s just so rewarding coz it’s just—it’s easy” And then you have  some patients where it’s a lot more trial and error and digging in. So it’s nice to have those home runs every now and then.

Evan Brand: Oh, man. I—so I had a home run earlier with this guy that I got off the phone with name Dion. And he was on an inhaler. An asthma inhaler.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: And also I believe he was taking uh—allergy medication, like a prescription allergy medication.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: Maybe it was one or the other. He alternated or he was on the inhaler something. But he was on prescriptions for allergies. And all we did is we cleaned up the diet, we’ve addressed some gut infections. He had candida and I believe a couple bacterial infections. I don’t believe he had parasites. I have to look back. But I remember a couple of infections, fix the gut, uh—supported adrenal’s basic adrenal support, some adaptogens. And I talked with him today and he said, “Evan, I’ve not used my medication in the last six weeks. And everything is blooming here right now. All the trees and plants and everything are blooming and normally, I’m debilitated. He said, “I’m completely fine.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Isn’t that awesome?

Evan Brand: How in the world just by working on the gut and adrenals am I not allergic to the environment anymore? It’s just like, “Oh, it makes me feel so good.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I see that all the time, too. And hydrochloric acid is one of those things that’s really great with allergies, too. You notice that?

Evan Brand: Ain’t that weird? I mean since digestive enzymes, I told him, I said, “Man, we’ve gotta keep up digestive enzymes.” And then actually I am gonna send him a bottle of some of the like natural herbal anti-histamines, just in case. Because he started sneezing on the phone. I’m like, “Whoa, maybe you’re not all the way out of the water yet. Have this on hand, in case you need it.” So the coresatin in, the rutin, some of those–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hesperetin

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The things I love for allergies: number one, just really get a good air filter. I used one by Advanced Air. You can see that at justinhealth.com/shop Look at the approved products. I like it. It’s good. Uhm—and then your natural anti-histamine degranulating compounds. In my product, Aller Clear. Stinging Nettle, coresatin, and then you’re gonna have like some vitamin C in that, some potassium bicarb as well. So those are really good. And you can go up to eat. The nice thing about it, just not gonna be drowsy. So you can get that allergy support without getting the drowsiness and then really make sure the diet is anti-inflammatory. Up the hydrochloric acid because HDL is really important with low—with allergy. It’s gonna make a big difference.

Evan Brand: Yup, Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Ginger. Ginger is phenomenal, too, for allergies. Really good.

Evan Brand: I love ginger. So it’s a great nutrient. I’d do teas, ginger kombucha, there’s so much you can do with ginger.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. By the way, right after this, I’ve got a new grill. So I’m gonna go out, I’m gonna grill some grass-fed hotdogs, right? And then I’ve got some sauerkraut with mustard. And I’ve got a nice ginger kombucha, I’m gonna open up. So I’m really excited for my lunch break today.

Evan Brand: Nice. What kind of grill? Is that one of those  pellet jobs?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I actually—I got a new Webber just because it’s—it’s—my other one was 10 years old. And then the knobs are starting to go. So I got a nice, little Webber Spirit. So it’s great. It’s got three burners. Love it. And uhm—I got a smoker that I use sometimes for ribs on the weekend just like a 4-hour job. So it’s good to have a day or an afternoon to kinda be at home to enjoy that one but—Yeah. So love my grilling. Try not to get things charred. Try to keep the heterocyclic amines and the polyaromatic hydrocarbons to a minimum.

Evan Brand: Agreed. Agreed, man. Cool. Well I don’t have one on my end.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You wanna have a share?

Evan Brand: No.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Hope you guys are liking these calls here. We wanna do more. We wanna connect with the listeners. Our purpose really is to serve and help people get their health back. If people want more feedback, or want more kinda like rolling up the sleeves and specifically diving into your case, go to notjustpaleo.com or justinhealth.com, click on the schedule buttons. And we are here to help you out. Evan, anything else, man?

Evan Brand: That’s it. Have a great day people, drink clean water, get rest, reduce stress, be grateful. It’s gonna go a long way.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And people on Facebook, I’m hoping we can get Evan on here soon. We gotta just  figure that out. So hopefully, soon we’ll do that. So Evan, great chatting with you, man. We’ll talk soon.

Evan Brand: Take Care. Bye.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Bye.

 


References:

https://justinhealth.com/products/aller-clear/

https://justinhealth.com/products/advanced-pure-air/

http://catalog.designsforhealth.com/IB-Synergy-60

EFT.mercola.com

notjustpale.com

http://notjustpaleo.com/227-dr-izabella-wentz-hashimotos-protocol/

Thyroid and Nutrient Deficiencies Live Q & A – Podcast #125

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand dive into an exciting discussion all about thyroid. Listen carefully as they engage in a dynamic conversation with the listeners and share some valuable information regarding their functional medicine approach on issues relating to thyroid; its connection to adrenal health, gut health, nutrition, and infections.

Learn about the hyper- and hypo- symptoms related to thyroid issues. Find out how other conditions like leaky gut and other infections are linked to thyroid health. Gain valuable information on different tests used to assess thyroid health and rule out other conditions contributing to thyroid issues. Increase your awareness about the different sources, like foods, supplements, and metals which all impacts thyroid function.

In this episode, we cover:

04:19   Thyroid and its connection to adrenals and leaky gut

12:50   Testing for Autoimmunity

16:42   Infections and Thyroid Health Connection

21:35   Cortisol Lab Test for Adrenal Issue

28:36   Thyroid Symptoms and Assessment

32:23   Iron

37:20   Gluten and its connection to leaky gut

54:23   Mercury

58:25   Iodine

itune

 

 

youtuve

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: YouTube as well. Any questions, feel free to type them in. Today’s podcast will be on thyroid. Evan, can you hear me okay?

Evan Brand: I sure can. You sound good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Awesome, man. We are live. What’s going on, man?

Evan Brand: Oh, not too much. Like I told you, somebody in France has had a fun weekend with my business credit card. So uh – besides that, everything is good.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Very cool, man. Yeah. Well, at least you got a capital one card, so you’re pretty well protected, right?

Evan Brand: Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s awesome. So we’re live on Facebook and YouTube. Again, better to be on YouTube, my opinion coz you get to see Evan and myself. If you’re watching me on Facebook right now, we’re a little compromised. We only got my feedback. You’re not gonna hear Evan’s side of it. So feel free and check out YouTube.com/justinhealth to be able to see Evan’s pretty face and be able to get some questions there. But we will answer questions on Facebook Live, too.

Evan Brand: Cool. So today we wanted to talk about thyroid. There is many lab test out there that you can get. Still, conventional doctors are not running the lab tests that are important, though, some of these antibody markers, some of the reverse T3 markers. Maybe you should briefly chat about that just since people maybe on Facebook. Talk people through why is this happening? Why are these conventional doctors not running these other important thyroid markers? Why is it just TSH and some of the other boring stuff?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Great question. And again, today we’re talking about thyroid and we talked about this topic a lot, done a lot of videos on it. I have a book coming out on this very shortly as well. So I’m just kinda do a brief overview. Feel free and check out Evan’s page not just Paleo.com and his podcast from more info as well as mine. We’ll give you more info here today. Hopefully we’ll be able to have a live interaction. But Evan’s question is for the Facebook live listeners. “Can we get podcast live on YouTube, too?” is the question about conventional thyroid issues versus functional thyroid issues. And this is a big difference, and most people they go and get help from their conventional physicians on matters of thyroid issues. They think that their conventional doctor is ruling them out for thyroid issues and they may, if it’s an extreme thyroid issue. You know, very, very high TSH, extreme thyroid swelling, uhm – maybe while hyper-symptoms if their grades are on the hyper side, or if they have a lot of thyroid destruction, or goiter things. They may get picked up by conventional testing, but many patients they aren’t getting picked up on conventional testing because they’re kinda in no man’s land. Conventional medicine looks at things like an on and off switch. You’re either healthy, right? The light’s on. Or you’re unhealthy, the light’s off. And we know in functional medicine world, that light switch is more of the dimmer switch, right? The light may be on halfway, right? You’re halfway healthy; or another way to look at it, you’re halfway to not being healthy. But it may not be all the way off. Maybe just flickering a little bit. And unless you’re all the way off, what’s gonna happen is they’re not gonna see anything wrong with your health issues regarding your thyroid. And they’re not gonna make any recommendations for interventions. And that’s the biggest problem. With thyroid issues, looking from the conventional to the functional medicine realm. And also, you have to look at the tools that they have right there. One tool – most part two, you’re gonna have some kinda surgical intervention or you gonna have some kind of uhm – pharmaceutical intervention. None of which typically fixes the root cause of what’s going on. Especially when we understand that thyroid issues are 90% autoimmune in nature. I’d say at least 50-90%. So we know if it’s autoimmune, and we don’t fix the underlying cause of why the autoimmunity is there, right? Then the underlying mechanism of the antibody is in the immune system attacking the thyroid tissue is still happening in the background.

Evan Brand: That’s terrible. I mean we’ve got thousands of people at this point who we work with, where they’re on thyroid drugs, and they still feel terrible. And I’ll go back and say, “Hey Doc, look, give up my Synthroid or other pharmaceutical, I still feel terrible.” And they’re just gonna up the drug more and more and more. So it’s like you’re jamming this gas pedal down, but you are not figuring out what’s the issue in the first place. And so for us, we’ll always gonna be looking at the gut; looking for infection; seeing what could be going on; why is there some type of attack going on. And then also looking at adrenals, too. And figure out what’s the adrenal thyroid connection. Maybe you could brief people on that a little bit? How someone with adrenal issues could have thyroid issues and vice versa.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So Evan, your question was looking at adrenals thyroid issues, we also have a listener question as well, talking about thyroid and gluten sensitivity. I’ll try to intertwine with the two answers. But again, adrenals are really important because you have cortisol production coming from the adrenals, which is important for managing stress and inflammation. Also, generally energy via blood sugar. Also, cortisol – is they differ healthy thyroid conversion. So if we have two high cortisol, or if your stress response is too high, we’re kinda in a Stage I adrenal issue that can block thyroid conversion. So we have this T4 thyroid hormone that gets converted down to the T3. And T4 is relatively inactive compared to T3.  So we have to make this conversion. There’s a lot of things that are needed for that, whether it’s selenium, or zinc, or vitamin A, or other nutrients to help make that conversion. But cortisol, from a hormonal perspective, is also needed. So if we’re too low on our response, right? We have this HPA axis, this regulation, the brain, the agent P, the hypothalamus and pituitary are hypo functioning. They’re dysregulated like a broken thermostat in your house – doesn’t turn on the heat, or turn on the air conditioning. That same thing is needed to help make that conversion from T4 to T3. So we have depleted adrenals that can strongly, strongly be an inhibiting factor of thyroid conversion. And also, if we have too much stress, one of the mechanisms the body does to regulate the stress response, is to make more reverse T3, which is essentially like taking uhm – the clip by the – your gun and putting blanks in there. So they kinda – they fit into the – into the magazine. They fit into the cartridge, right? But they fire, but that then you don’t get the same metabolic effect. You don’t get the increase in energy; don’t get all of the hormonal benefits; you don’t have the warmness and the increased blood circulation; and you don’t have the degradation of cholesterol and other hormonal byproducts. So you can see that the adrenals are intimately connected. Now answering the person’s question here on gluten. Gluten is really important because that’s a big strong – That’s a big stimulator of leaky gut. So gluten exposure can drive leaky gut. What it does is it increases zonulin, which unzips the tight junctions in a lot of patients, even people that are necessarily having a response to gluten. It shows that there is still uh – intestinal permeability that’s happening. And the more food particles that get into the bloodstream, the more LPS is in the gut, the more that can unzip the gut, the more – allow more food particles in there, and create more immune stimulation. And it’s also inflammatory in the gut, too. And also can create this concept known as molecular mimicry, where the immune system sees the surface proteins, and it can mistakenly identified it is the thyroid, and it starts attacking the thyroid tissue, creating more inflammation. And that can cause these thyroid follicles. So still, that hormone is creating unbalanced levels.

Evan Brand: And this could all come from gluten exposure, you’re saying?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It can all come from gluten exposure. Gluten is one strongest stimulators of leaky gut, along with distress, along with LPS, which is a compound produced from bacterial overgrowth, right? So the worse stomach acid, the more stress we have, the more essentially we’re not breaking down our food, the more we’re gonna have bad bacterial overgrowth that’s gonna increase LPS, that’s gonna unzip those tight junctions even faster, which is gonna create more immune issues, more food allergy issues. Because think about it, right? The immune system shouldn’t be getting revved up to deal with food; shouldn’t be getting revved up to deal with the digestion. So the more that’s happening- well what that means is that your immune system is going in overdrive. One of the major reason why people are when they’re sick – think about it. Because their immune system sucks up so much energy. So the more you’re revving up your immune system by just consuming food, you’re gonna be constantly tired. And that’s just gonna drain your adrenals, and drain your thyroid, and increase that thyroid autoimmune attack.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. So I mean, we got the zonulin. What’s the link there between the zonulin and LPS? So are these connected at all? Or are these going up and down in relationship to each other?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes. So the more zonulin you have, typically the more leaky gut you’re gonna have, right? So vitamin D is actually a zonulin inhibitor. So the more zonulin you have, the more leaky gut. So LPS will increase zonulin. Infections will increase zonulin. Gluten will increase zonulin. And that basically, if this is like Parker jacket, you’re wearing that’s kinda like unzipping those tight junctions and then basically food particles can get in there.LPS particles can get in there. When LPS flows to the brain and makes it way up to the brain, leaky gut, leaky brain that LPS can create inflammation in the brain which feels like brain fog, which feels like mood issues, which feels like depression, which feels like anxiety. And this is really hard for a lot of people. Getting back to Evan’s question on gluten and the brain, is people may have a gluten issue. Think that well gluten has to cause digestive problems diarrhea, bloating, gas, reflux constipation, diarrhea. But it may not – It may be causing depression, anxiety brain fog, poor memory, poor uh – just word recall. And you may have a gluten issue, but it may not be even because by – you know, you may not see it because it’s not those conventional symptoms. And again, that same thing is gonna create thyroid issues, too. Coz that same mechanism that opens up the lining of the blood-brain barrier and the brain, also affect the gut, which then creates that more autoimmune thyroid attack.

Evan Brand: Well said. And there’s a lot of people that justify eating gluten to us. Whether it’s like organic wheat, or they’re doing some type of like sprouted wheat, or something like that. But gluten is gluten, and even if you’re not celiac – now there is research that shows that celiacs are gonna have30 times higher zonulin levels than a non-celiac. So massive, massive leaky gut in the celiac person in comparison.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Right.

Evan Brand: But still, we could even talk about the study. It’s Scandinavian Journal of Gastroenterology. It showed that gliadin, which is a gluten protein can affect zonulin even in people without the gene for celiac.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: And so basically they said, “All gliadin, regardless of what – whether you are celiac or not, it’s still going to activate zonulin, therefore leaky gut, therefore this LPS, these endotoxins are gonna get in there.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: Which is crazy. And – and I love that. I love that the science because then you and I aren’t the bad guys when we’re telling people to get rid of gluten. It’s like, “Look, here is the research.” Yeah, maybe you don’t get a – acne from gluten, but you still causing leaky gut, regardless. I love that we can actually prove that and it’s not just up for – it’s not just our opinion coz we’re the nutrition guys.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s the key thing that you mention there, Evan. The zonulin and the gluten can trigger the leaky gut and you may not necessarily have an autoimmunity, and the question is the more stressed you become, the more compromised you become, the more your toxic burden, your stress burden, the more  your – the physical, chemical, emotional stress buckets get full. That’s where your body’s ability to adapt to stress really becomes inhibited. And again, the biggest mechanism really is, leaky gut. Even if you’re not necessarily gluten sensitive, you may be getting a leaky gut, which is adding stress to that stress bucket, right? It’s decreasing stomach acid; it’s decreasing enzymes; it’s increasing the ability to have food allergens; it’s increasing transfer infections and SIBO.Because the more your immune system is weakening the gut, the more that force field, that IgA gets lower, and the more critters can come in. So, yeah, 100%. And again a lot of people – I’m not a big fan of gluten because its, one: it’s hard to break down, it’s heavily pesticide, it’s low in nutrient density. A lot of the anthropological data shows that it’s been consumed only about 10,000 years ago, and the people that are consuming it typically have lower bodies – body stature, smaller in uhm – skeletal structure and increased risk for osteoporosis. Again, hunter gatherers tend to be more forgers uhm – starchy tubers, berries. Those kind of things, and obviously, meat and bone marrow. You study how the brain evolved. Really, it was the hand axe that allowed us to carve into bones and access bone marrow, and then creates spears to kill animals, and access that nutrients to grow our brains massively. Omega-3 is fat from the fish. So all of those things were huge in evolving our brain. Now, getting back to thyroid-We got a couple questions over here from the listener’s here on YouTube. So I’m gonna list a couple of. Couple is “how do you test autoimmunity?”Number one: kinda tying it back thyroid. We would look at TPO, or Thyroid Peroxidase antibodies or anti thyroid globulin antibodies; we’ll look for immune attack on the thyroid tissue. Also, we can look at TSI, immunoglubin, which is a marker for Graves’ disease, which is also a thyroid condition; or TSH receptor antibodies for the hyper- TSH receptor antibodies for the hyper; TSI for the hyper; and then TPO and thyroglobulin antibodies for the hypo. Now again, you can have the hypo antibodies, though, and have hyper symptoms initially. So you can kinda be on both stages at one point. So just kinda keep that in mind.

Evan Brand: And then more time, just so people are clear to that. Seems a bit confusing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: A lot of people that start out with hyperthyroid – or sorry – hypothyroid antibodies, low thyroid function antibodies, the TPO and thyroglobulin bodies, even though those are markers for a hypo-, Hashimoto’s, they can progress into hyper- symptoms initially because your thyroid follicle have about four months of thyroid hormone stored in it. So what that means is, you can spill out that thyroid hormone many, many months before, even up to a year or so, before you actually get depleted and go low. And that’s where the TSH gets really high. TSH will go high as the thyroid gets depleted, but in the initial attacks, in the first year or so, you may feel more hyper- symptoms even though it is a hypo– Hashimoto thyroid mechanism that’s happening.

Evan Brand: Uh, got it.  Well said. Okay. So, people may self-diagnose themselves with hyperthyroidism, your saying that it could actually be a hypo-caused by Hashimoto situation that’s going on. They just don’t feel the full effects yet coz it’s a new – it’s a new attack. Is that correct?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. So the symptoms they may have is irritability, anxiety, mood issues, difficulty sleeping, heart palpitations, uhm – they may have like tired but wired kinda feeling. Those are the big things that they’re gonna have. I would say, yeah, the anxiety is gonna be a big one. Difficulty sleeping is gonna be a big one. Where the hypo- symptoms star to come in, again you may still have anxiety; you may still depression. The big differences is you’re gonna start to see the hair thinning because thyroid hormones are needed for hair follicle growth. So the outer thirds of the eyebrows go; the hair starts to thin on top; cold hands and cold feet it starts to happen. You may start to see constipation issue, too. You may start to see your triglycerides and your cholesterol go up. Again, infections can cause constipation, too. Uh – increase insulin can also cause increase cholesterol and triglyceride, too. So there’s other things. But that’s a general indication, is the cold hands, cold feet, the fatigue, the hair loss, the constipation and the increase in lipids you’re gonna see. That’s why you wanna test full thyroid panel, which is gonna consist of TSH, brain hormone, T4,inactive thyroid hormone (free and total), T3, which is converted peripherally 20%, and 80% throughout the body (free and total) and obviously you T3 uptake. You can look at thyroid binding globulin, which can go up or down if you have PCOS or on birth control. And then also reverse T3 and all the antibodies I mentioned.

Evan Brand: Yes. So I’ve also16:19read about another one that I’ve not seen used very much called TRAB, thyroid stimulating hormone receptor antibody, but it says that the antibodies are only ordered when someone is hyper- . And a positive result for that usually means great. So I’m not seeing that one that often, though.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s just a different name for I think the TSH receptor antibodies. Like TPO also has a like a name called,microsomal antibodies. So again, typically it’s the same names. So TSH receptor antibodies that’s probably another name for that, just like the microsomal is the same name for TPO.

Evan Brand: Uhh. Okay, got it. Now should we talk about – Is this is the time we should talk about the link between infections and thyroid health? Because people that were looking at, we’re not just gonna look at thyroid, we’re gonna look at the gut, too. And the average between us is about 1 in 3 of having infections. You know, every third person is gonna show up with infection. Sometimes even – you know those weak. Sometimes it’s 9 out of every 10 people has a parasite or other infection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. So we have a few questions coming on the uhm – YouTube Live board here that we’ll kinda tie in. But yes, so the big infections that can affect thyroid and can increase that thyroid autoimmunity: H. Pylori, okay, Yersinia, Enterocolitica, blasto, E. histo. Those are gonna be the big ones that are really gonna affect the thyroid. Even Lyme has a specific amino acid pattern that can create autoimmunity to the thyroid. So for sure, those are the big ones. You know, there’s been study showing that when you eradicate H. Pylori – It’s Italian study out there, that thyroid antibodies significantly drop. I have a video on blasto, right? Blasto infections are resolved, antibodies drop. Same with Yersinia, infections drop. As you attack Lyme, antibodies drop. So that can be a big stimulator and drive more leaky gut, more zonulin, more immune stress, which then creates more stomach acid and enzyme environments, which creates more adrenal stress, more thyroid stressed, and more nutrient deficiencies which perpetuate everything. So you can see, if don’t get to the root cause in this, that’s fine. You can go see your conventional medical doctor to make sure your TSH isn’t elevated, right? But in the end, you’re still gonna be suffering. And that’s why I have so many patients then I know you do as well that have all these symptoms. And I’ve seen a doctor for over a decade and are just tired of it. Alright, you know, this can’t just be my thyroid and all that we done is on 50 mics or 100 mics of Synthroid and that’s it. We can’t do anything else. They know there’s something more and that’s why they are reaching for people like you and myself, Evan.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Well in toolbox, it’s just not there, right. I mean, it’s not their fault. They’re just doing all that they’ve got. That’s the only tool in the – in the shed. The surgery or wait till you have some type of disease, or some big nodule, or a goiter or something crazy. And now, okay, now we have to do surgery.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And a lot of people are talking about, “Well, what if you don’t have antibodies coming back on your thyroid?” My personal take on that is, above 40% comeback false negative. So it’s negative, but it could be positive. So what does that mean? Well, typically I’ll run the antibodies on someone at least three or four times before I say that they probably don’t have – they probably don’t have an autoimmune issue – at least 3 or 4 times. Now, the gold standard is a biopsy. Still going with a needle aspiration, and they poke it into the thyroid, they’ll if the tissues have any lymphocyte infiltration. So there’s an immune response going into the thyroid. So you can also have – you know your conventional physician palpate it. They’ll typically reach around your neck. So here’s my Adam’s apple, so it’s down just maybe a centimeter, and then out 1 or 2 cm. So it’s right here. And then you can typically run your finger right across it, then you can touch and push from one side to the other, and just feel the surface. See if it’s smooth, and then you can swallow, and feel that structure. And you can feel like a little nodule or a little bump and that’s possible. A nodule can typically mean autoimmunity or can mean an iodine deficiency. You can go to your conventional physician for that. I talked about the needle aspir –aspiration, but I don’t recommend unless you have – must you really want to know a hundred percent. The next more conservative approach would be a thyroid ultrasound to see if there is any swelling at all. Yeah. And that will be – those will be – My first line of defense would be, “Alright, let’s do your antibodies.” Second line would be ultrasound. I typically wouldn’t recommend the needle biopsy unless you are more worried about the cancer side of it, right? If I’m more worried about cancer then we may do that, or we may do a thyroid scan. But again, those are more invasive. I really only want to see those if we’re trying to rule out cancer. Coz typically the ultrasound and the antibodies will be the best. And we know, uncontrolled Hashimoto’s can lead to cancer, right? It increases your risk of cancer. So everything we’re doing is actually decreasing someone’s thyroid from progressing to a mandibular, papillary, follicular cancer. That’s – that’s the goal. So regarding that piece, everything we’re doing is gonna work either way because we’re mitigating the gluten in the food; or reducing the infection load; or upping the nutrients to help lower antibodies and help the thyroid convert; or making all diet and lifestyle changes and getting rid of the infection, which are gonna help improve the thyroid conversion, activation, and  the upstream signaling downstream.

Evan Brand: Early on in the chat, someone asked, “How should one read the cortisol lab test for adrenal fatigue?” “What numbers indicate the issue?” That’s gonna depend on the lab. Justin and I really like Biohealth, especially because they’ve got a brand-new test that were using now, which is six-point cortisol test. So any practitioners that are using a four-point cortisol test on you-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh-hmm. Yup.

Evan Brand: They’re outdated. They need to get with the –the times. With the 2017, six point is the new one. And how can you read the numbers? Well, typically there’s gonna be like a high patient line, a low patient line and then you would wannabe right in between those sandwich. And it’s gonna depend. So other labs are gonna have different – you know, different markers, different reference ranges. So for us to read a reference ranges to you, will be really boring. Uh – but basically long story short, you wanna be perfectly sandwiched in between those two lines. And it’s very rare that we see somebody in that. Most of the time we’re gonna see a low cortisol picture. And this is a low-free cortisol.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Exactly.

Evan Brand: They’re gonna be low pretty much all day. And this is for most people. And so, then we have to keep digging deeper.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand: We don’t just throw them a bunch of adrenal support and say, “goodluck” We gotta figure out what – why is this happening?  Is there a lot of emotional stresses, or chemical stresses, or thyroid issues, or parasites? And these are the other pieces of the puzzle.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Exactly. So you made some really good points there. So with the adrenal, the car test, the adrenal, the uhm – the cortisol-adrenal response, especially in the morning. Cortisol starts off low in that first initial bit of waking up, and really pops up in the first half-hour to one hour after waking. So Evan and I are looking more at those types of test to see how that cortisol awakening response is happening in the morning. Coz cortisol is so important for thyroid activation to prevent T3 pooling, which is T3 not getting into the cells, as well as to prevent reverse T3 up-regulation, right? Reverse T3 is the uh – the blanks. The blank bullets that fit into the magazine that prevent the real bullets from getting fired. The real thyroid hormone being the real bullets, upregulating your metabolism. So those are the things that we’re looking at. And I agree, cortisol, and low cortisol, and low thyroid can intimately feel the same, right? We have patients sometimes that will feel like, “hmm, do they have a thyroid issue or adrenal issue?” We’ll run both test and we’ll see their TSH is, let’s say: 1, 1.5; T3 is at 3, 3.2; and their conversion is okay. But we’ll see, “Oh, yeah” their cortisol awakening response is terrible. Their cortisol is low; their DHEA is depleted. If they’re female patient, their hormones are off, right? So we’ll see. We’ll be able to  differentiate the two. And if you’re just going based of a symptoms, and trying to self-treat yourself, it’s gonna be really hard. You start going in one direction over the other. You may not get better. And a lot of patients, they instantaneously wanna go get their thyroid supported and treated first. The problem with that is, you increase thyroid hormone levels, and you already have lower cortisol. You can actually lower your cortisol even more, right? Just go google uhm – Addison’s disease, which is cortisol failure, right? – Addison’s disease, contraindications – And one of the contraindications you’ll see on their thyroid hormone because thyroid hormone can actually lower cortisol more. Coz think about it, right? Thyroid increases metabolism. The more your metabolism is increased, the more you metabolize through your hormones as well. So if we lower our hormones, and you are already at super low cortisol to begin with, you can actually feel worse as well. A lot of people feel worse when they just go after their thyroid and it can really create more problems.

Evan Brand: Wow. Now that you say that, I’m picturing a woman last week who, she was on Levothyroxine for a very long time. Her cortisol levels were like the lowest I’ve ever seen. So I wonder if it’s that drug that’s contributed to her cortisol being even lower than it would have been without the drug. What do you think?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You can see patients that they go on their thyroid support, and they start feeling worse. And it’s just – it’s really difficult because if they’re seeing a functional medicine practitioner, they may lose faith in that person, right? And – and just say, “Hey, I’m just gonna keep on doing what I’m doing. I’m just gonna go back on the Synthroid.” So you have that aspect there, right? And then uhm – also have the fact that you know, what’s primary? A lot of people have in – the adrenal issue is the more primary issue. And if we start treating that first, then we may get the patient feeling better, which then creates more compliance. The more compliance, the more – the more the patient’s gonna follow through on diet, on lifestyle, on addressing infections. And that gives us a better chance to leverage the patients to do the right thing to heal.

Evan Brand: Well said. And plus, if the adrenals get back online, then we know that that conversion from T4 to T3 active is gonna be better. So they may not even need to go to the “thyroid support” if all these other root causes were the biggest thing. I mean it’s a parasite and an adrenal problem. If you fix those two things, is it possible you can get away with never going into, “Hey this is your thyroid program now. We just have to fix the other pieces.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. So uhm – looking at that piece, you’re hundred percent right. I see so many patients, we’ll measure their thyroid temperature like their basal temperature. And again, for basal temps: 97.8 to 98.2 °F is gonna be where you wanna be for your armpit axillary temperature; and then98.2 to 98.6 °F is oral temperature. And typically do that in the morning before you get out of bed. And also do it sometime in the afternoon before you have lunch, and kinda do a general average. And again, a lot of people will be relatively low, and they’ll start to see their temperatures start going up uhm – as we treat the adrenals. One of the big things we see with the adrenals is we see an erratic temperature. The temperature is kinda bouncing around. Anything greater than .3°F can be – can lead to be a sign of a potential adrenal issue via a temp.

Evan Brand: Let me ask this. Let me ask this with you. So you’re saying, .3 difference. So that would mean if you woke up one day and you tested your armpit temperature, let’s say you were 98° flat in your armpit before you got out of bed, then the next day, you’re at 98.3. To you, that’s gonna signify thyroid and adrenal issues. Is that right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So we went from 98 to 98.3?

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. So it’d be greater than .3 So if you’re 98-98.4 and we’re consistently seeing this back-and-forth oscillation, so we’re seeing 98, 98.4 or 97.9 and it’s constantly bouncing back and forth greater than .3 that could potentially mean an adrenal issue, right? And because it’s erratic, but at a good level of temperature 97.8 or higher. So we typically mean of an adrenal issue. If we see it low and erratic, let’s say, 97, 97.4, 96.9 to 97.5, then that would potentially be an adrenal and a thyroid issue. And again, temperatures aren’t perfect, right? Like when we assess thyroid, there’s three indicators we use. We use subjective, which in my opinion is the most important. How do you feel? Do you have a lot more hyper- or hypo- symptoms, right? Hyper- symptoms being anxiety, palpitations, mood issues, tired but wired.

Evan Brand: What about sweating? Increased sweating?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: – sweating, irritability, difficult sleeping. Where the hypo- symptoms, again, you can still have the mood stuff; you can still have the anxiety and mood stuff; you can still have some tired and wired – some tired and wired

feeling but typically more tired, though. And then the big thing is the cold hands, the cold feet, the thinning hair, the thinning eyebrows, the constipation. Those are gonna be the big differences. And obviously what trumps any of it, is an increase in TSH or thyroid antibodies are gonna be the biggest distinguishing factor, if it’s TPO or TSH receptor antibodies.

Evan Brand: And I just wanna mention one thing, too. In a lot of cases, the people we’re working with are gonna have both hypo- and hyperthyroid symptoms which can be equally confusing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally. Yup. Equally confusing. I mean we look at like the test that we give our patients to assess that uhm – right? The other big one’s losing weight. Losing weight uhm – even though you’re – or unintentionally gaining weight if you’re on the hypo- side or unintentionally losing weight if you’re hyper- side, right? That’s gonna be another, another big one. Elevated cholesterol – another, another big one. So those are a couple of the other ones that I mention there where the anxiety, the excessively sweating, uhm – again, hands shaking, difficulty sleeping, uhm – feeling more warm on the hyper- side. Those are gonna be the other big ones. And obviously having a family history. If your mom, or your aunt, or uncle, or your sibling has a thyroid issue, right? That’s gonna be a big – just, you know, big factor. One of the big questions I do in all my intakes is, are there celiac disease or any autoimmunity that runs in your family? Whether it’s thyroid, or Parkinson’s or MS, or ulcerative colitis, or Chron’s or anything autoimmune related, type I diabetes. And if there is, that really gets me to hone in there. But testing for autoimmunity, conventional medicine typically does it like ANA, or HLA-B27, or an RA Latex like – these are like the conventional, like broad markers for like scleroderma, or like – or celiac, right? Or see, rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus. They’re very non-specific a lot of times. And again uhm – and they typically are late stage markers. It takes a while for them to pop-up.  And again, a lot of people they may be asymptomatic and still have them. So it’s not a real motivating factor for a lot of people. Where some of the things we look at it with the thyroid antibodies, well even just a little bit above like the normal range. So like LabCorp, it’s 33 or 36 for the TPO. Where I think the thyro – the thyroglobulin antibody is anything greater than 1 is positive. So if we’re like at 1.5 or 2, you know – we will look at that and we’re gonna really push for autoimmune changes and autoimmune protocols. We see TPO going above 20, we’ll start to say, “Hey, you know, you wanna be careful with this.” And we’ll keep an eye on that. And then we have the – you know, people are on the thousands on the antibody levels. And we’ve made this change and I’ve seen 70, 80% drops. We take a patient from 2300 down to like 3 to 400, which is a massive drop.

Evan Brand: And so that’s diet, that’s lifestyle, removing infections, supporting adrenals. All those pieces, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. Absolutely. And I got a question here on FacebookLive. I’ll try to connect it in here. And again, I apologize for Facebook Live listeners here. If you’re watching us there, check out the YouTube so you can actually see Evan. I’m gonna try to reiterate the questions so that you can hear it. Uhm – but that will be the best way to get the full conversation. Regarding uhm – question on Facebook Live, he’s talking about iron. Now, iron is really important coz it’s a really important building block for thyroid hormone. And we also need triiron for thyroid activation from T4 and T3, and we need it for just generally carrying oxygen to ourselves, which is really important for cellular metabolism. So if we have low iron levels that could be an issue. Now I did a full video this for people to get back to the iron video to get like the specifics on that. But again, typically we’ll recommend, like in my line, we use an Iron Supreme. It’s a Ferrous Bisglycinate. And we’ll do about 25 milligrams of iron, anywhere between 2 to 4 times a day to help support that. But also, we’ll figure out the root cause. Coz a lot of females, it’s excessive menstruation or hemorrhage. It could be vegetarian and vegan diets, or it could be the x factor of malabsorption from gut inflammation, to low stomach acid and enzymes and not being able to ionize minerals to an infection that’s stealing your minerals.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I’m so glad you brought that up because here I am thinking about myself, and the whole time, I had two parasite infections.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: I guarantee I have low stomach acid. I guarantee I had issues with iron absorption. And people, let’s say, even if you’re eating the best organic grass-fed beef, if you got an infection that is causing stress on the gut, therefore reducing stomach acid; therefore reducing the ability for you to cleave off those amino acids and iron from them – from the meat, you can still have trouble. And what about – what about ferritin, too? Because the iron storage protein, that’s what we’re gonna test. For many times, you’re gonna see, especially women have very, very low ferritin levels where – and you’ve got a woman with ferritin levels you know – in between say 20 and 40. You may be experiencing something like breathlessness, for example. You could definitely have hair loss falling out. Sometimes I’ll hear women say when their ferritin is about 20, let’s say their hair is falling out in clumps. So you wanna get ferritin, which is the iron storage protein. You gotta get that levels tested, too. And we like people to get up, you know, 60, 70, 80 with ferritin just to ensure that – that iron storage protein is actually working. Now – and this is something that I haven’t looked at very often, but I’m curious if you know Justin, if you’ve got low ferritin, are you always going to have low iron as well? Or is it possible that with low ferritin, your iron could still check out okay?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So with lower ferritin, iron serum can pop up, and it can pop up because – imagine like ferritin is like the gasoline that’s in the gas tank, right? And then think of like iron serum is like the iron is actually in the carbonator and then the piston’s ready to be – ready to be combusted, right? So one’s like – iron is like, what’s ready to go that’s in the actual engine and carbonator; and ferritin is like, what’s in the gas tank, right? So obviously the more important one is gonna be what’s in the gas tank coz that gives you the bigger picture, right? You don’t care, you know how much – how much engines – how much fuel’s in the carbonator. It will only take you maybe a couple of hundred meters, maybe a mile. I don’t know, I’m not a big car guy, so – But keep that in the back of your mind. Now the difference is your body has a little bit more of an interplay with other systems. So inflammation can increase iron serum. So that’s why we look at ferritin, but then we’ll also look at it with iron saturation, too. We see iron saturation low, below 25, when we see TIBC or UIBC on the higher side, that means your binding proteins are growing more and more fingers –  to have more iron. And if we see iron serum up, then we’ll be like, “hmm, maybe there’s some inflammation” We may wanna look at C-reactive protein, right? We may want to look at some of those inflammatory markers. Uhm – if we’re running a gut test, you may look at lactoferrin or calprotectin and see it – inflammation is occurring in the gut. So it really depends on what else is happening in the body. Does that make sense?

Evan Brand: Yeah. It does – it does. So, if you had to pick one or the other. Let’s say, somebody only gave you the option to run some of the specific iron markers or ferritin, what would you pick? For me, I think – I feel like I’ pick ferritin, if I could only pick one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean, ferritin for sure. But an iron panel is like 30 bucks. There’s no reason –there’s no reason why anyone should nickel-and-dime on that because you don’t wanna compromise $30 getting a complete picture. So I think we run it. We keep doing it for 30 bucks and that’s everything.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And that gives you the ferritin, the iron serum, and that gives you the UIBC, the TIBC, the iron stat. So then you have a real complete picture of what’s happening. And then you know, even just looking at someone’s CBC can be helpful coz you can look at red blood cells, hemoglobin, hematocrit and if that’s starting to go low, then we can look at MCH, MCB, MCHC, which is basically markers to see how big your red blood cells are, right? Smaller red blood cells typically mean iron issues; bigger red blood cells typically mean B12, folate and B6 issues.

Evan Brand: Wow. There’s another question. Actually there’s a comment up here by Tonya. She was talking about how she was able to eat gluten and dairy now after she had infections. And I guess she treated those, and now she’s able to eat gluten and dairy. I feel like that depends on the person. Me, personally even if I could get away with it, I still wouldn’t do it because you’re still gonna increase zonulin and leaky gut. Potentially set yourself up for future infections.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. That’s the problem, right? Disaster doesn’t occur in –a day or a week, right? And we know that leaky gut can still happen even without the symptoms, right? We – there’s just been studies where they’ve given people pieces of gluten and they measured symptoms, they didn’t see necessarily an increase in symptoms or negative side-effects. But they saw this increase in zonulin and leaky gut because of it. Now we know that when that happens, you increase your risk of having other issues. So I know there are people right now, we get the same conversation. We’ll be talking to people that have been able to smoke cigarettes and not get lung cancer. Okay, great. Now, does that mean that you’re gonna go out and recommend smoking cigarettes to anyone? No. It’s still not gonna be beneficial. It’s still gonna be inflammatory. It still increases your risk. You don’t know who the people are that are gonna have the negative effects to begin with, right? It’s all like you have that looking glass that you can see in know. And also uh – you don’t know down the road when stress comes on and other things happen. Coz usually it’s not just one thing. It’s like, “great, now this person who’s talking – their stress bucket, they’re already filling it halfway.” So they’re going into with a half-full of stress bucket thinking that they’re okay, right? Alright. So, I got a half full of stress bucket. So now when other things come into their life, they’re gonna overflow faster.

Evan Brand: Agreed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then also – and also other people, that may overfill their stress bucket right away. And so that’s why you have to make sure that you know that some people may be the exception to the rule. They aren’t the rule. And this is where it’s –We have the advantage, Evan, because we see so many thousands of people that we can make correlations and can actually even see causation because we make changes and we see direct changes in the person’s physiology and their symptoms are getting better. So we can’t make – we can’t create all these protocols for the exception to the rule coz there are so many exceptions. There are people that smoke and don’t get cancer, alright? We know that. People that may consume gluten and may be okay, but the majority may have issues. Or they may set themselves up in increased stress bucket, right? Meaning increase their ability to handle less stress, so that when more stress comes on, boom, now they’re laid up.

Evan Brand: Exactly. Yeah. Tonya we had to put you on the chopping block there because for you commenting about saying gluten and dairy and you can get away with it now. You’re speaking for thousands of people that listen and do the same thing. And Justin and I will look at the symptoms of someone, and if there are still health complaints that haven’t been resolved, then let’s say we get the retest on GI-MAP stool test, and we look at antigliadin and antibodies, and I caught the lie detector test. I don’t know if you do, Justin. But it’s uh – when you get the antigliadin antibodies, it’s like, okay, one of three things happen. Either you’ve got gluten, you ate gluten, or you’ve got cross reactivity going on. And so, even if your symptoms are not supposedly there, your body is still fighting internally. There is still this internal battle going on, which is not what we want because then those antibodies can get confused and start attacking other tissues, which we don’t want.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And it’s tough because there are people that we see eat a diet that is you know – highly processed with a lot of carbs. And their blood sugar is relatively okay. And that maybe because they’re naturally more insulin sensitive, or they exercise more. And we see some people that eat the same diet, and they’re diabetic. So what do you do? Like I can’t sit there, and say, “well this person who eats this way isn’t diabetic” that means that diets is fine. No, it’s not. You have to look at the greater picture. You also have to look at what – does that diet now, is it nutrient dense? Is it anti-inflammatory? Is it low in toxins? And no, it’s not. But again, don’t get me wrong. Like dairies are open-ended topic, right? Ghee may be perfectly great. Butter maybe perfectly great.  Raw milk may be perfectly great for some people. But then we go to the pasteurized dairy, we go into more of the yogurts, which could be great, but it may not be. So do – we have to kind of uhm – can have a criteria for all those different compounds, right? Because some dairy may be okay, some may not be okay. And sometimes bread, too. Some people may do okay with bread over in Europe. Or they’ll do fine with sourdough bread coz it’s fermented and has less gluten in it versus, let’s say, wheat bread here that’s conventional. So you got to look at it, too. Some of those things may be okay and may have to be more specifically talked about.

Evan Brand: Yup. She commented back. She says, we’re missing the point. If parasite is the cause, you can go back to the way you were, prior to eating – oh the way you were prior, like eating gluten. We as people, ate gluten for a millennia and now it is the cause of all ills. I’ll comment on it first, and then I’ll let you say something about it. In the modern world, we have a lot more toxins. We have a lot more things that we’re up against, and so gluten, where maybe only would have change someone’s health 2 or 3% 5000 years ago, now,  has the ability to modify someone, tell 50 or 75, or even80% in some cases. We’ll see 80% of symptoms get better without it. So for me, comparing millennia to the modern world, we’ve never had a world like today. So it’s just not really a valid argument.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. And the grains aren’t even like– If you look at the biblical grains, they talked about in the diet, and Dr. William Davies totally debunks this. If you look at the grains 2,000 years ago, reference in the bible, these are 12 chromosome uh – grain products versus the ones that they have right now, they’re hybridized and genetically modified, they’re up to 50 chromosomes. The gluten content is much higher and is also the extra stress of potential GMO nutrients, poor soils, as well as pesticide exposure. So it’s not quite the same way. Plus, people have to look at it from this perspective, if you drive around on your car, and you get a flat tire on your car, right? And you change the tire and you put the little – let’s forget that. Let’s just say you’re driving around on that flat tire for like a year, okay? So the flat tire is the cause of what’s happening here. But you drive around the flat tire for a year. That’s like ignoring the stressors of your health. It could be gluten. It could be parasite. But the longer you drive around on the flat tire, the more you front angles out of alignment; the more your suspension goes out of whack; the more your whole shock system in the car becomes stressed. And even if you decide, let’s say a year later, I’m gonna change that tire and put on a nice, fresh tire, which is like cutting out the gluten, managing stress, managing sleep, your car has been compromised where just changing the tire won’t fix it. You’re gonna have to go in for a full frontal alignment. You may have to get your tires rotated; you may need new shocks; your brake pads may have worn unevenly. There’s so many other issues that may happen with the car that where collateral damage from that flat tire being ignored. So just because you, let’s say, it was a parasite issue, and the parasites are now gone; or it’s a gluten issue, and the gluten’s now gone, doesn’t mean you now have nutritional deficiencies; doesn’t mean your enzymes and HCL are now effective; doesn’t mean your thyroid and your adrenals hormone system are now stressed; doesn’t mean your detoxification systems are now stressed, right? So this is what is happening. And other analogy is you’re in debt for 5 years. Great. You stop – you curtail your spending habits but you don’t get out of the hut – but you don’t get 100 grand out of debt by just changing your spending habits today. You need a bailout, or you need a lot more time just to start saving and get that money back up. Does that make sense, Evan?

Evan Brand: Yeah. Or the analogy of the spider web.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yes.

Evan Brand: Where there’s other pit of the web that’s affected, too. So for example, we can use me as an example. You look at me when uh – first time I came to your house. You’re like, “Evan, man, you look like you get a parasite.” You just- you just saw it. And I was like, “okay” It’s been a year plus since I’ve eradicated those infections, but I still am using enzymes and HCL because I was in such hypochloridic state that I still need to use supplemental HCL and supplemental enzymes. And I don’t really have an end date in mind where I’m not going to use enzymes because if I’m busy, or If I feel like I’m just not chewing my food as much as I should, to me, I like that nutritional insurance policy in place.

Uhm – there’s another question too that Chris asked earlier. He said, “not to be the dead horse, but isn’t there another marker to show autoimmunity of failsafe?” I guess since he’s asking because a lot of times –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I already answered that one with the ANA and the conventional ones.

Evan Brand: Oh, okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And then the TPO. And also the gliadin antibodies be the stool testing we do. And then there’s uh – a test by Cyrex Lab that looks at leaky gut, which could give you a predisposing marker, where it looks at zonulin and occludin toxins which can open up the tight junctions. So that one will be another one when I look at.

Evan Brand: It’s pricey. Have you run that one often? The Cyrex, I mean, it’s like 600 bucks.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I’m not a big fan of that because it doesn’t tell me any of the cause. So if people have infections and their diet is not good, and they have – we’re seeing a low stomach acid and low enzyme environments, it’s not worth it. We just kinda work on treating the cause and then a lot of times, the clinical picture changes. Peoples bloating in gas and all these symptoms improved, which we know that means their digestion is getting better, their absorbing more nutrients. That means there has to be a leaky gut mechanism happening. I’m a bigger fan of looking at causal test versus the effect test. The effect tests are only good if you’re trying to convince someone or that people are skeptical. But once – people that are coming to see us are very intelligent because they’ve already educated themselves. They listen a lot to podcast. They read lots of blogs. They watch a lot of videos. They already get it. They don’t need to be convinced. They just wanna be fixed. So it’s a different mindset with those people.

Evan Brand: Agreed. Well said. And we don’t have people that need to be convinced they have leaky gut. Most of the time, they’ve already self-diagnosed themselves. In many cases, you don’t need to spend – I’d say99.9% of the cases, you don’t need to spend the money on a blood test that’s gonna say you have leaky gut. We could just list off symptoms – boom boom boom. Yeah, you probably got leaky gut. Cyrex, for their food sensitivity test, that is – that is cool one, but even then I feel like it’s a unnecessary in most cases because if you and I are gonna put somebody on like a AIP approach, let’s say thyroid disease did show up, some Hashimoto’s. We’ll have to go AIP and maybe we could try to reintroduce things. But they’re gonna be able to be a better barometer of Austin than the test in most cases. Like, “Oh when I added dark chocolate back in” or “when I added dairy back in” and this is what happen. I feel like that’s more valuable than a blood test.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally.

Evan Brand: Totally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: We’ll do a full autoimmune elimination protocols and it’s gonna be very valuable for 90% of people. We’ll go an autoimmune diet, cutting out nuts, seeds, nightshade, eggs, obviously grains, legumes, dairy. And again, for people that are like the gluten fans that are on the message board here, they still aren’t nutrient dense food. If you look at the nutrients, if you look at the other compounds that aren’t gluten-related, right? Let’s look at the fact that some people are intolerant. They just can’t break it down because they’re missing the enzymes to do that. And that any time the food is not broken down, it can create stress in the body just like people that can’t break down lactose. They’re lactose intolerant and then they have diarrhea and bloating. So, some people just may be intolerant to breaking down the protein. Some people may be increasing inflammation because of the lectins and the phytic acid and then the oxalates that are just shutting mineral absorption. Other people may be having the autoimmune issue. So it’s still not a nutrient dense anti-inflammatory low toxin food. It’s not like there’s this missing nutrient that you can get out of gluten or out of these grains that you can’t get in some really awesome nutrient rich vegetables or healthy fruits with –or healthy starchy tubers. Does that make sense?

Evan Brand: Yeah. It does. Now – this is off-topic. But –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s not a missing link. That’s my thing. If people had to say that – we – could show me a nutrient density chart and say, “But Dr. J, you get these nutrients, or the zinc and this is amazing or this, B vitamins”. I’d say, “Okay, but there’s not that evidence that it’s there.

Evan Brand: Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now a great – a great talk on this uhm – what’s his name, out of Harvard there – Matt Lalonde did a great talk at the Ancestral Health Symposium at 2012 on nutrient density. I highly recommend anyone watching that. But when you look at the nutrient density that you’re gonna get in meats, especially organ meats, it’s insane. It just destroys grains. And grains are the lowest out of all those foods.

Evan Brand:  Yeah. Now, we’re – we’re off-topic from the thyroid, but that’s fine because I love that’s it’s a dynamic conversation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It connects in, right? Because-

Evan Brand: It does.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -nutrients help in thyroid conversion, they help with thyroid activation, they help with the adrenal, which helps the thyroid cells. Even though we’re off-topic, we’re gonna do our best to kind of meander our way back to the thyroid.

Evan Brand: Yeah. Now, what I was gonna say was a bit off- topic, which is – well all you’re saying is totally on topic but what I’m gonna say is it’s funny how even some of these professional healthcare companies are now designing supplements, which I’m not gonna even give them the credit of naming these products. But there are gluten supplements out there, where it’s like, “here, go eat gluten, but then here is this enzyme or here’s this XYZ supplement to where you can still try to eat gluten, but you just take these pills with them instead.” It’s like, that’s ridiculous. That’s like covering up the engine light in your car. The light’s still there, but here’s this magic tape that’s gonna hide it. I just don’t think supplements that enable you to eat gluten is a good idea.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Now, here’s the deal, right? If you have thyroid antibodies, if you know – if you have objective measures of autoimmune issues, or your heightenly celiac sensitive, another word is – almost like – almost like if you have gluten, like you’re laid up, like you’re just – you’re junk for days on it, I don’t ever recommend cheating with gluten. If you can manage, if you’re really healthy, and you don’t have severe thyroid or antibody markers popping up, then you could try going gluten-free you know, right? It maybe rice, or corn may be okay. If you do that, I typically recommend the enzymes, like the DPP-4 enzymes and we’ll take it with charcoal. But it’s a cheat, and we’re just trying to mitigate it. And we wouldn’t wanna ever do that as a staple to allow ourselves to eat gluten. Now, like myself, like maybe once year, like if I’m in Boston and I’m in the north end, I may have like a cannoli, but I found an alternative uh –modern bakery and get some gluten-free ones that are white flour-based. But if I go, I mean I’ll up the DPP-4 enzymes, increase the charcoal, and the vitamin C in the knack. And that will help me deal with it. Uhm – but again, that’s like – if you look at it, the 2000 meals I have a year, you know – maybe one or two have that in there, right? Not a lot. We’re talking .001% But people who are really, really sensitive or having gut over their health issues, initially you really wanna be puritanical. And then – I’ll kinda dovetail this with Johnny’s question here. Some of the testing that I will do to fine tune, if like patients are on the autoimmune, they kinda reintroduce things back in and they’re still having issues, and not quite sure what works, there will be some testing we’ll do like an MRT is a pretty good test. I’m liking the ELISA / ACT test as well coz it’s not just antibodies, it’s looking at various lymphocytes, too. And I do a combination of the ELISA and I’m – I’m kinda testing the MRT as well. And I’ll actually be doing some blind testing and sending some uh – different vials in with different people with actually my blood on with different names. I’m doing some blind testing on that. So hopefully I’ll do a video on that.

Evan Brand: You ought to try the, if you have it already, I believe it’s the Array 2. And there’s a couple of other Arrays form Cyrex, too. I’m a bigger fan of that than the MRT.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well the problem with Cyrex, though, it’s only looking at Ig or IgA – that’s the issue. So with the ELISA, it’s also looking at T-cell lymphocyte response and you’re not gonna get that picked up on Cyrex. That’s the big issue. And if you’re not exposed to gluten, let’s say we’re doing this test, and “yeah, I haven’t eaten gluten in a month or a couple of months” Well, if the immune system isn’t responding to it coz it’s not being exposed to it, it won’t come up in the test.

Evan Brand: Uhhh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And people will be like, “Oh, look, I’m fine.” But may not be the case. So you have to look at it in a complete spectrum.

Evan Brand: That makes sense. So the ELISA / ACT.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Uh- hmm.

Evan Brand: And that’s blood.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: That’s blood. Exactly.

Evan Brand: Cool. That sounds great. Well, I feel like we should probably wrap this up. I know this has been a lot of information uhm – if people are interested in your book, then they need to sign up for your email list. I mean – you’re so passionate about thyroid health, it’s definitely infectious. And do we have a date on that? Of this thyroid book? What’s up with that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: It’s done, man. I’m shooting it up to the editor. So we can buff it out and – and you know, I read all – every thyroid book on the market, I pretty much read. And my biggest issue is, you can summarize every thyroid book in like 5 pages.

Evan Brand: I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So I want a book that’s shorter. It’s more condensed. I want every page to be neat. I want every page to be __I want every page to have like action items. People can walk away and really improve their health and then throughout – in a standstill, they can reach out to people like myself and you, to kinda like get to the next level. So that’s where I’m at right now – to fine tune and boil it down. I want to touch just one question. Dale mentioned it earlier, he talked about mercury. And mercury is an important aspect coz mercury can pinch it and affect the thyroid. There’s this study showing that lowering mercury can decrease thyroid antibodies. I have one patient that had thyroglobulin antibodies over 2000 and we saw the antibodies drop below 100. So we saw a 99% drop in antibodies by removing mercury. So we’ll test that. We’ll do challenge test via urine and we’ll use various provocation agents like DMPS, which is 2, 3 dimer propanoic acid, or we’ll do uh – 2, 3 dimer succinic acid, which is DMSA. Or we can even do EDT as well. But I typically do the DMPS challenge and we’ll be able to provoke that and see what’s coming out from the mercury. That can be a big, big uh – kind of underlying revealer of another aspect of what could be driving an autoimmunity, which is the mercury. And again, I know you’ve done the shade testing which looks at urine unprovoked, hair, and blood. Not a big fan of hair and because they don’t tell you an active or chronic uhm – a chronic level. Doesn’t give you a tissue burden. And also, there’s study showing that people that push more mercury out on the hair actually have better detox pathways, and they measure people who push less mercury on the hair, and they actually found that they had more provoked mercury in the urine even though they push less out in the hair, partly because their detox pathway is impaired.

Evan Brand: Wow. I’m gonna try yours coz it sounds like it sounds like I could be getting some numbers that are not what they actually are. I wonder what other heavy metals are impacting this, too? I wonder if cadmium, for example, or aluminum is also gonna impact thyroid. It seems like all heavy metals potentially could. Or do you think it’s specific to mercury. Mercury’s gonna be the biggest?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well mercury is definitely gonna be the biggest coz it’s one of the second or third most toxic compounds in the world. It’s really bad. So that one. Obviously lead is gonna be really bad, too. Because lead and mercury interplay, right? If you look at the lethal dose of one – if you take uhm – the dose, you get hundred rats lined up, and you figure out, you keep on titrating the mercury dose up. So the first rat dies out of a hundred. So you titrate the mercury up, the first rat dies, right? That’s called the – the lethal dose of one, right? The 1, the 1% that kills – the dose of 1% of that kills. And you do that for mercury and lead, so you have the hundred rats, right? One dies of mercury, right? You increase the lead up here or one dies of lead. And you now combine the mercury and lead those together to all 100 rats, they all die. Did you get that?

Evan Brand: Yeah, I sure did.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: So what they’re saying is even though it only kills one of here over a hundred and the lead over here kills one out of a hundred, but when you combine it together, and gives it all to 100, all of them die. Meaning that, these metals are synergistically connected and can have exponential effects when added. So if you see mercury and lead together, typically the compounds that we’re using, are gonna be specific to mercury and lead for sure. So you don’t have give a special one for mercury and a special one for lead, right? So you give it and it would globally affect mercury and lead and typically cadmium, as well. And we’d also wanna give extra binders. Crochet talks about this like MC but MCT like modified citrus pectin, MCP actually. Uh – we’d also give maybe charcoal or bentine clays. We’d also use things like chlorella, especially for mercury. And we’d also use things to support detoxification. So in my line, we use heavy metal clear and then we also use DMPS and we use a lot of sulfur amino acid support to run phase 2 detoxification, as well.

Evan Brand: And still eat your broccoli, folks.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Oh, yeah. Your cruciferous are gonna be really important for your DIM and Indole-3-Carbinol which all help run phase 2 detoxification.

Evan Brand: Awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, anything else here? Any other questions we wanted to run to? Uh – on the YouTube live here, anything else we can answer?

Evan Brand: I think that was everything.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I think we hit it all up pretty well. Oh, I didn’t touch upon this. Let me just hit it real quick. Iodine. Iodine is a really important nutrient for the Iodination process to make thyroid hormone, right? If you look at the T, the T typically stands for- some people say thyroid or tyrosine. And then the 4 number is the Iodine. So you have the Iodination process and then you have the 5 prime, the iodinase that comes in there and it grabs and pulls off an iodine, and activates it and makes it T3. Well, that enzyme that activates thyroid hormone is selenium dependent and comes from the liver. So healthy liver function is really important. But having adequate iron uhm – adequate iron level as well is important, but having adequate iodine is also important. RDA is about 150 to 200 µg a day to at least prevent goiter. Now some people may need more than that. Now you have people like Brown Steen and other doctors that are going super, super high, 2550 mg a day. I’m very, very cautious of doing any high-dose iodine. I have seen too many patients uhm – like literally just lose their hair. Like just like gaps, like handfuls come out and their thyroid has gotten worst. Number one, like if we give iodine and they have autoimmunity, it’s typically months later after we’ve stabilized the gluten, stabilized the adrenals, supporting thyroid, supporting nutrients, supporting the gut, get their diet in shape, get their digestion better and then we’ll start very low and we’ll gradually work them up. But we’ll be checking in, we’ll be monitoring it and we’ll be doing very low doses and then gradually tapering it up or also making sure there’s enough selenium there, enough B vitamins, enough minerals, enough vitamin C. So we’ll make sure there’s a lot of other cofactors coz when you give iodine, it can spit out hydrogen peroxide, which can increase D cell lymphocyte infiltration into the thyroid. So it can exacerbate autoimmunity. So if we do it, we’re doing it responsible. We’re doing a lower RDA doses as a starting point and then gradually working our way up from there.

Evan Brand: So what about working with foods at the same time? So I’ve heard some people, anti-kelp people out there. And I don’t know why there’s some anti-kelp people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well, I think you just gotta be careful with kelp just because just coz where it’s coming from, the whole Fukushima disaster two years back.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: -radiation. So just gotta be careful. There are some really good sources out there. You gotta make sure it’s not coming from one of those places and number two, there’s a whole list of foods that you can give. Typically, like in my multi- there’s gonna be at least the RDA there, which is great.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Egg yolks are gonna have some iodine as well. Uhm- obviously seaweeds have some good iodine sources. You just have to make sure that it’s not gonna be the Fukushima kind. I’ll get a list right here. I’ll read out a couple of foods that are really high in iodine in just one second.

Evan Brand: I’ve heard strawberries, too, which is interesting. And then I also wonder – it’s hard to get a composition sheet for a Himalayan pink salt. I wonder if you’re gonna get any iodine from pink salt or not?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I mean there’s some maybe some trace amounts there. I know iodized salt; 1 gram will have about 77 µg. There are some research showing that increased iodize salt consumption did increase autoimmunity. And it could just be that these are the general public. They’re just taking it, they already have a poor diet, and they don’t have the selenium, and the B’s, and the minerals, and the vitamin C in the background. And maybe that’s why that happened. So it’s hard to say. So there are studies on that showing there could be an issue. But things like cod, right? Things like shrimp, uh – things like turkey. Even some navy beans, even some tuna, even some eggs are gonna have some good iodine. I mean one egg is gonna have 12 to 15 µg iodine. So if you do 4 eggs a day, that’s about 60. You got a good multi- that will be 150. Uhm – you have some fish, you got some other food, now you’re like at 3, 400µg. Now you may need to go higher, but you had to work with physician or functional medicine practitioner to be monitoring the antibodies and make sure you have all ducks in a row first, before you go there.

Evan Brand: Yeah. I mean there’s people that will just start covering themselves in iodine. And so that could be a bad idea, you’re saying, coz you could actually increase antibodies, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Totally can increase antibodies. Uhm- you gotta be careful with that.

Evan Brand: I’m not – for some reason iodine, one of those things and kind of the eggs will call the natural health community that is – it’s been portrayed as very benign. And I remember even in some of the – the classes I was taking down in Austin, I remember a girl in class, she like paints everyday, she was painting her arm with iodine. And she was like, “it’s the greatest nutrient ever.” I was like, “Oh, my Lord. This is out of control.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Well painting on your skin for the most part, 80% of it evaporates.

Evan Brand: Uh-huh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: The only time I recommend painting it on your skin is if you have fibrocystic breast disease uh – you have a lot of cyst and painful breast tissue. Painting it on the breast tissue can be great coz you’re driving the iodine right into the localized spot, where there’s the cyst, which could help. But outside of that, I mean, if you have –if you need iodine systemically for your body and for your thyroid function, you wanna take it in – in your body. And typically do a liquid potassium iodide.

Evan Brand: So she wasn’t – She probably wasn’t making herself toxic then. She was just turning herself uh – brown.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. 80% of it – you know, the iodine pass test, like the faster it evaporates, meaning the more your body absorb it; the slower it evaporates the more iodine you have. It’s very crude measurement, right? The better test is gonna be like Hakala or I think doctor stated, there’s an iodine loading test. I think it’s 25 to 50 mg of iodine then you test uhm – your urine and see how much GPL. So the goal is, if you pee 90% or more, it means your iodine levels are saturated; if you pee less than 90%, right? You pee less than 90% that means your body grab more of that iodine. So it’s – you’re essentially low. That’s the theory on that. 90% and more, you’re okay; less than 90, you’re low.

Evan Brand: Uhh. That’s interesting.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: But again, regarding iodine, you gotta do it responsible – responsibly. If you’re – think of iodine gasoline on the fire.

Evan Brand: Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Gasoline is not bad when you put it in your car. But if your car is on fire, and you start putting gasoline in your car, you can create problems, obviously, right? That’s what’s kinda happening in your thyroid. You wanna look at everything holistically. And you want the body system approach that Evan and I use, the key three, looking at the hormones, ATF( adrenals, thyroid, female hormones); ATM (adrenals, thyroid, male hormones), gut and infections, putting nutrients, digestion, better food, allergies, and then looking at detox and nutrients, as well.

Evan Brand: Yup. Well said. Go to justinhealth.com to schedule consultation with Justin. Check out the thyroid videos series. He’s got hormone videos series, too. You’ve got the supplement line there. And then, you could check out my stuff, too, notjustpaleo.com or you could just google either of us. Justin, or Dr. Dr. Justin Marchegiani. Evan Brand. You’ll find us both. And stay tune because this is really fun. And I don’t know about you, but I’m loving this. I think maybe 3 to 5 times more than just doing an off-air podcast coz people are asking questions. And it’s like shaping and structuring this.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: This little organic podcast ball.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah. I love it. We love the questions. We like just having this little kinda dialogue back and forth and “ooh, someone responds over here, let’s see what they said” and we kinda see if we can interject it into the conversation. That’s great. Totally m__we’re on the fly.

Evan Brand: Love it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Like impromptu, right? It’s like we’re on the stage, doing a little impromptu podcast.

Evan Brand: There’s no cuts; there’s no edits; there’s no –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Overall man, this is it.

Evan Brand: This is – this is the real deal. This isn’t – there’s not a makeup person coming in and touching you up here. I mean this is the real deal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: I know. If you guys are liking this, we’re gonna do it a lot more. We just need thumbs up; we need likes; we need shares; show us the love. Go like Evan’s channel. Share the podcast. And then we’re gonna do more of this, and get everyone’s questions answered, and just provide more value. Like how could we provide more value to our listeners and improve your health.

Evan Brand: Yeah. And I think I mentioned it already. But if you wanna schedule a consult with Justin, just go to the website, justinhealth.com you could schedule the consults there.  And same thing for me, notjustpaleo.com and we’ll chat with you all next week. And let’s do something next week, maybe – maybe on like clinical success stories we’re having in the practice.

Evan Brand: Well that means they’re coming in –

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: And just like, maybe go over our top 3 stories of the week. Coz we see – you know, so many patients. We can pick out 3 easily.

Evan Brand: Well, yeah. I thought of something, too. Uh- actually, a woman who was struggling with fertility is now pregnant. And I figured, getting her on and talking about her story with parasites and how her fertility was compromised due to the infections. Getting her on the air, maybe asking them– we have to make it fun for them, too. 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Yeah.

Evan Brand: For them to take time out of it, get them to share their story and just kinda talk them through what we did. I think that’s- that’s the most remarkable part of all this, is getting to hear the feedback, which a lot of people, they’re not getting to hear the stories. And this is what keeps us motivated and keeps us going.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I love it, Evan. That sounds awesome, man. Well, let’s connect real soon, brother.

Evan Brand: Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: You take care. Bye now.

Evan Brand: Bye.


References:

www.notjustpaleo.com

YouTube.com/justinhealth

Dr. Andrew Hill – Improving brain function, baldness and head trauma – Podcast #118

Dr. Justin Marchegiani has a special guest back again today, Dr. Andrew Hill. For this podcast episode, they talk about brain function, baldness and head trauma.

Discover the different medications or drugs that are used for ADHD, anxiety and sleep issues and how they will affect people in the short or long term. Find out how mindfulness and meditation can help with brain function and training. Get some information on insulin and the history of gluten as well as a brief history of genetics and evolution. Learn what should be done in cases of head trauma or brain injury when you listen to this episode.

In this episode, topics include:

01:40   Biofeedback/Neurofeedback

14:38   Medications and Smart drugs

40:16   Insulin

48:22   Gluten

56:48   Baldness

62:35   Brain injury/trauma

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, there! It’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani. We got Dr. Andrew Hill on the show today. Dr. Andrew is a grad over the UMass Amherst School. I went to school as well so we’re fellow alums, also a PhD grad over at UCLA. Dr. Hill, it’s been a while, but glad to have you back on the show.

Dr. Andrew Hill: Yeah, thanks for having me, Justin. I’m guessing a lot has happened for Beyond Wellness, as well as on my end of things, the past couple of—few months.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool! I’m excited. What’s new on your neck of the woods?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  We are—and we, I mean, a new company I’ve been working on called Peak Brain, we’ve been opening up brain training centers, neurofeedback centers. We’re also doing a lot of free mindfulness instruction, you know, I’m sure we talked about this last time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Just to review a lot of different aspects on you know, call it biohacking, call it therapy, call it exercise. There’s lots of different avenues into this space and for many people, different choices might make more sense towards you know, free things–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Like mindfulness and meditation where you’re always carry around the equipment. Once you know how to do it, you can always practice. So I have this focus, at this point of bringing tools to accessible, or bringing the accessibility to people. So the idea is to provide a lot of you know, open mindfulness instruction and these training centers as well as the higher tech tool that people can sort of you know, buy services and getting a lot of hands on training and qEEG and neurofeedback. So I’m taking it more to the—to the fitness and out of the clinical level as much as possible these days.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you’re doing more qEEG or neurofeedback work?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, the—most of the neurofeedback we do is EEG-based–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, got it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Neurofeedback or biofeedback. We also do HEG, which is another form of neurofeedback. We do a little bit of HRV, which is biofeedback referral. Let me—let me break–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  This down for one second. There—there’s some overlap in terms. All neurofeedback is a form of biofeedback but not all biofeedback is neurofeedback. The difference really—the central nervous system as—as you know is a pretty savvy guy, but the body is—some of the systems is everything encased in bone essentially. So—all the nerves are inside the spinal column, the brain and so–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And everything outside is—is peripheral nervous system, and so broadly you can define neurofeedback as central neurofeedback or sorry, central neurofeedback or peripheral biofeedback.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And that’s for the line that—that is getting drawn, but it’s a little blurry because you can do things centrally, like HEG where your training blood flow voluntarily and EEG is a form of central biofeedback where it’s involuntary thing—so the lines blue quickly because the body is not divided into, you know, discrete compartments that are purely isolated from each other in—in a system, so it’s a little bit of complicated but that’s probably more information than you need—on—on the differences. So–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Very cool. So if someone is out here, maybe they have excessive sympathetic nervous system overdrive or an adrenal dysfunction–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right? Neurofeedback and/or EEG tend to be a really good way to dampen that’s—over sympathetic, over fight or flight response that’s happening. So if someone’s having that, they’re making the diet and the lifestyle changes, maybe they’re on an adrenal program using some adaptogens and nutrients and they’re stabilizing their blood sugar, making themselves be a more—a fat burner, would the next step be, if they’re doing all these things correct, how would they incorporate–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The EEG neurofeedback into their life?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  The next few steps in terms of you know, adding tools and technology to support, you know, health as well as transformation would be probably to add in either peripheral biofeedback tools like HRV, like all that skin response, like mindfulness, like meditation practice and then I would say the next level is adding in the sort of higher tech tools like the EEG neurofeedback. And—and to enter that stage, you sim—and if there’s a problem, I mean, for the average person who’s working on stress management or just trying to optimize the performance, you know, you will wanna build things to have a good foundation. If you’re trying to remediate a specific issue, you have seizures, you have ADHD, you got some, you know, problems that’s really getting in your way then you can go right to neurofeedback, I think as a, you know, first line intervention. And for something like that, you start with what is called a brain map, a quantitative EEG ideally and those are usually baseline assessments of brain activity that or then compared to a normative database, and out that you get maps that tell, you know, practitioner like myself how unusual you are compared to a population. And then we examine the most unusual aspects of your brain, how it’s functioning and some of those tend to cohere with certain functional limits or patterns or bottlenecks. You may notice I’m using a lot of very tentative language and that’s because the qEEG is not neuroimaging. It’s statistical analysis. You know, it’s you compared to some distribute—there’s some distribution of—of continuum of function, you know? So it’s really you compared to a bunch of different average people and—and your brain can be special and unique and wonderful, and—and really unusual and still be fine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So qEEG is—is much of an art as is a science. There are a few things in the EEG and the quantitative EEG that are well validated, some diagnostic markers, or other you know, some discriminants, pretty reliably if you have clean EEG, you can spot traumatic brain injuries in people if they are at all significant. You can often or almost always actually spot ADHD. The FDA has a pretty good at this point support of a few discriminants in the EEG that suggests ADHD, including you know, going so far as to support a hardware diagnostic headset a couple years ago as actually diagnosing ADHD passively without any clinical involvement and essentially it’s doing I—I believe it’s—it’s doing a ratios of frequencies in the brain. So you start with these assessment tools to get a peek under the covers, and so the quantified self implication as well as a, you know, remediation benefit and you get a sense of how your brain works and then the next step is to start exercising and training it using you know, biofeedback feedback essentially and we shape brain activity and figure out how that affects function and over time you make changes to the brain. I know we talked about this before, but it’s essentially offering conditioning, not if you could think Skinner not Pavlov–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So we aren’t—we aren’t making you know, a voluntary response happen by providing a—a random thing like—like the bell and pairing it with the stimulants.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes, exactly.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  What we’re doing is instead only rewarding certain stimuli you do. So Skinner, you know, Skinner’s left alone noted Pavlov but it—I think it bears expanding. Skinner trained essentially pigeons to peck along bars or do certain behaviors to get rewards, you know, to turn a light on or you know, hit a switch or something. And a Skinner box is a behavior-shaping device. You don’t just examine how pigeons behave. You examine how they learn so you’re shaping or changing their and the way you do that and operate conditioning is you reward behavior that is near what you want to accomplish, so–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You find what the brain is doing moment to moment, and then you—you know, when—when a certain brain wave moves a little bit or trends in the right direction or stays in the direction that’s when you provide—provide the reward. So over time your—you’re shaping.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You’re just rewarding—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Shaping, right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  A different trend, yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And then you move the goalpost and you reward further, you know, development of the trend, the physiological trend and not direction. The—the weird thing about—about the analogy of Skinner vs Pavlov is this is operate conditioning. However, the pigeon knew what it was doing. It was—you know, it was trying different things. Pigeons actually can get very superstitious.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  If you—you know, if they spin around once, and then get rewarded, they will then spin around once and they approach that food bowl and switch again because they’ve learned. Pigeons are like baseball players. They’re so superstitious–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  A little ridiculous.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That is funny.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But in the case of EEG—the—the analogy breaks down because what you’re rewarding, the—the behavior if you will of the brain, a fluctuating EEG that’s happening in a time course that is faster than you can perceive or control. So it’s really measuring sort of the real-time, you know, under 100 milliseconds or time window of what fluctuating in your brain. And you don’t really control things in that time course. You are only perceiving in the like 92 to a couple hundred milliseconds timeframe for most of us. We don’t proceed rapidly and we perceive most of what’s going on, you know, neurologically. And so as it’s fluctuating, reward it and shape it, and over time it changes which was kind of magical and lovely. But it—it’s not the magic of neurofeedback that’s doing that, it’s the magic of the brain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It’s the brain’s ability to interpret a signal, a shaping signal. It’s the brain’s ability to enhance its plasticity in response to a signal. There’s really good evidence now that neurofeedback rams up plasticity fairly profoundly, something called a—an evoked motor potential can be used to measure plasticity of cortex. Essentially, you—you trans—carry all magnetic stimulations and zap a little bit of the brain and see—like over the hand area of the motor cortex and see how much bulk it takes to make the hand jump.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It—it sounds brutal but it’s actually a fairly innocuous little thing they do with TMS, just to see if they’re over the right area. The—there was an experiment a couple years ago that showed that before-and-after neurofeedback. After neurofeedback, the motor cortex respond to a much lower voltage, a much lower, you know, signal before it perturbs or it jumps in responds and changes. And—and so this is a sign of motor plasticity or learning–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know, broadly, that seems to be upre—upregulated regulated fairly rapidly with neurofeedback.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when you’re saying–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  With the other evidence of this. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when you’re saying neuroplasticity, basically your brain is almost starting to rewire itself essentially.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, it’s rewiring itself. You know, I—I think of it sort of like it’s getting younger because–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  For many of us we—we’ve have the experience of being, you know, over plastic. I mean, that’s being a teenager is to some extent. Things just change a little, you know, too rapidly, swing. But there’s this—there’s this proliferation of synapses, of connections between neurons in early seniors,  10 through 14 or 9 through 14, or around 9 or 10 or 11, the brain sort of finishes all this lateralization. It’s often that’s where a lot of final development happens. Post that age is when language acquisition without an accent becomes very difficult, but right after there’s this—there’s this proliferation for a few years or synapses. Massive like overbuilding in some ways. Think of like a forest that is becoming so thick and so overgrown that it just doesn’t have a lot of light getting through it. You know, it’s almost like too much in terms of synaptic density, and then there’s a big period of learning where those synapses change widlly in mid-teen years and many get pruned away, you know, this—this neuropile as it’s called.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It’s pruned away into more discrete circuits. And that’s the time of profound learning and skill development and self-regulation, and other things in those mid-teen years. And so I really do think about you know, the plasticity enhancement features of neurofeedback as sort of rolling back some of the—some of the kid, not the—the decline of synaptic flexibility that was so prevalent when most of us were in our mid-teen years when things were just changing and responding and changing and responding and—and learning was like trivial because it’s just learn, learn, learn, and change and grow and develop. And it all seems effortless, you know? Relative how things feel, you know, 20 years later or 30 or 40 or 50 years later. So—so that’s my goal from all this stuff. Be it nootropics or mediation or neurofeedback. And—and be it for whatever goal, peak performance, substance abuse, you know, remediation if you will, changing your relationships and your—and you’re in control over substance behavior which is hard when you think about it. Getting control of executive function, getting control of aging, getting control of mental illness. These are equivalent in my mind. They’re all about getting some control over this 3-lb blob that uses most of our, you know, glucose and oxygen resources on our body.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And—and learning to take you know, a little more active role if you will in how it develops, how it changes, how—how it has a trajectory of improvement and aging, and learning and growth. So a lot of my focus is—has really swung far towards encouraging and supporting people’s access to these tools.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Interesting and you mentioned a couple of things especially with ADHD, and it’s interesting when you–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Because when you compare and contrast, you know, the—the functional, more natural alternatives, EEG, nutrition, functional medicine for like, let’s say ADHD, you also have the conventional options which are pretty mainstream, but they typically involve stimulants–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Methamphetamines, Adderall, Prozac, you know, those type of medications where you’re trying to–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Overstimulate the brain into focus, into the ability to pay attention, how is that different? I mean, obviously, one I see is whipping a horse, whipping a tired horse. The other one is—is much more different and is trying to align the brain in a more functional, more sustainable way.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Can you compare that?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Interesting analogy. An interesting analogy. Let me—let me just talk about medications for a second.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Now I’m not a psychiatrist. I’m a neuroscientist, but I—you know, I know a thing or two about pharmacokinetics–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Of course, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And dynamics and how—how they work. The—in theory, they should not be working. Psychostimulants should not be working by whipping the tired horse. In theory, the CEO of the company is asleep under the desk, and the psychostimulant is like a cup of coffee to get something productive again so they control all the random nonsense going on in all the different departments of the company.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So it—it’s waking up some—an executive that is not controlling thing versus driving an already tired system. I just want—you know, I wanna shift the metaphor a little bit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Because there’s a couple of other classes of drugs that are now used. You mentioned SSRI’s I think.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, Prozac.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, Prozac. Not as used sometimes—on no longer very much in kids and teens because the—the suicide fatality–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Side effects, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Increased risk is pretty high.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  They’ve discovered.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  That’s often not a great course, but the other two classes that are used, some of them promising with—with some promise are mood stabilizers and beta blockers, blood pressure meds that are being used really seem to work for some of the most acute behavioral symptoms.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Are they beta-blockers? That they’re helping to decrease that action potential in the heart and the sympathetics. Is that how it’s working?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Not sure how they’re working. Things like—like Intuniv which is a—what’s that? Atenolol or something. I forget–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  What the—what the generic is.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, it’s basically beta blockers which work great for other things, too. And as well as comorbidity. So I wonder how much is it does ADHD cause anxiety being dealt with better, and you know, but all day long I look at brains that have been labeled ADHD or anxious or other things, and I often find there’s some agreement with labels on the physiology and how it functions, but not complete, you know. And they’re often very coarse and very poor agreement. So I—I will say that—that functional patterns that support the interpretation of ADHD, anxiety, and sleep issues tend to show up together more than they show up separately. So you almost always, if you see two of those three things, you almost always see all three—ADHD, sleep issues, and anxiety.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I know there are potential adverse–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  In terms of—Uh-hmm?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I know there are potential adverse effects of the methamphetamines long-term on the brain, so I get in the short-term, hey, you got an exam–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You’re gonna do it to kinda get really get those centers revved but long-term, what’s your take on that?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, well, it depends on the class of psychostimulant. I mean, some things like Adderall–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Adderall.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Since you have a structure similar to—to methamphetamines–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Those things we—we don’t know too much about and—and it’s probably not great long-term. The drugs like methylphenidate, Ritalin–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  That seems to actually be a little neuroprotective but don’t necessarily work for everyone or you know, have—have all the benefits. You know, when I was just post college or in college, I—I need to add Ritalin and it made me really sedated. I was profoundly ADHD, classic ADHD, in you know, even in my 20s, not so much anymore but—but back then I was, and methylphenidate just made me feel numb, you know, Ritalin. And—and it just did not work to control my attention and at that time as a “young” man, I did take Adderall. It worked relatively well and I tried it again about a decade or two later and it my—I have my liver gotten too old. I couldn’t tolerate the side effects. And I—and I think I’m not so concerned about the—the short-term side effect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right. It’s definitely the long-term.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  As you say–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But—but even the short-term side effects can be fairly profound to a developing person. If you’re appetite suppressed, if your sleep’s disrupted, if you have underlying cardiac issues, I—I think that stimulants in general can really provoke a pretty, you know, negative set of consequences in the short-term. I don’t know that we know a huge amount about long-term, but I think that the sort of atypical stimulants like Ritalin, we know are fairly safe long-ish term because of how long people have been on them. And we know that the biggest risk for a lot of the other drugs is more about either sensitivities, like I said, cardiac or other issues or there’s—there’s risk of abuse in—in stimulants, right? There’s often very significant risk of abuse, and I think the problem—that the scope of the problem is actually, even I’m—I’m downplaying it a little bit is actually much more dramatic that I might—that we might suggest because I think ADHD and, therefore, stimulant prescription is so phenomenally rampant and fat outstretched the actual clinical sort of narrow scope focus of pathology that must be addressed. I mean, ADHD is a bucket that has become you know, huge, to swell and catch all kinds of things especially in school systems.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  There are like something like half or three quarters of you know, in some school systems have kids that are on psychostimulants, and have these diagnoses. And I don’t think the diagnoses match. First of all, I think ADHD is only diagnostically relevant when it’s getting in the way and—and it’s so profoundly overdiagnosed that you know, it’s a fraction people who have some attention problems under some circumstances that I would call ADHD—you know, capital A, capital H, whatever.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  The—and prescribed for. Because the consequences are high and this is the medical doctor’s you know, job of course to know this that there are—are side effects you must balance against the desired effects–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And the side effects and stimulants are not significant, they’re better than other things. I’m not sure why the beta blockers work. I have a hunch we’re gonna discovered it’s more about reticular activating system issues.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And thalamic—and thalamic activation of downstate–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Than it’s really gonna be about you know, cortical activation and—and relaxation if you will. But all those things regardless of how they’re working are doing short-term intervention. They’re not teaching their brain how to not be ADHD, but how to sustain your executive function, and sustaining sort of you know, sustain a—a perspective on attention that is resilient and not reactive. That takes some work and you can get there, but it’s not—you know, it’s not rocket surgery. You can get there through mindfulness or meditation, and you can absolutely work on ADHD and other another cluster type phenomena with a short simple mindfulness practice. In weeks, it will start changing your brain. The research is mounting. You can do a lot of mindfulness to—to reign back in executive function challenges that aren’t necessarily, you know, there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I think you can learn a lot by the mechanism of how these drugs work. I mean, if you—if you know about the methamphetamines–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Just the average listener here, they really are gonna stimulate serotonin and dopamine and a lot of your catecholamines, norepinephrine, epinephrine. So if that’s helping, while the question becomes how can we utilize construct of vehicles to increase those neurotransmitters? Also they block the reuptake to so they allow more of these nutrients or more of these brain chemicals to sit in between the pre-and postsynaptic neuron. The problem is long-term, we start to have more degrading or recycling enzymes that break them down faster. So if short-term, it works okay. But in the long-term, you start gearing up more enzymes to break them down.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So the question I guess comes down to what can we do, I mean, on the neurofeedback side to improve these neurochemicals and maybe you want to take it to the diet side and maybe even supplements side, too.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, you can do a fair amount. I mean another benefit of neurofeedback is it really makes your brain more sensitive and sort of reset some this—this acquired tolerance. And we see that in psychostimulants dramatically. You know, a couple weeks into neurofeedback you have to reduce your dose usually because you’re suddenly getting hit with a sledgehammer by—by your psychostimulants if you’re taking the.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  We also see it from things like cannabis oddly enough. You suddenly have to ramp your—your consumption down if you’re a cannabis user because your brain is super flexible.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But some of the—some of the best of research is still coming in. I mean, we don’t really understand nutrition fully in terms of ADHD. And it’s also not a homogenous issue when it’s actually truly present. I mean, there are several variants, some more types of you know, dopamine receptor coding repeats that show up that gets classified as ADHD, and some of them make you more hyperactive but also more resistant to distraction and some of them make you, you know, more distractible but less able to focus—but also able to, you know, almost more able to focus rather when you get checked in. So it—it’s a little bit of confusing space and, therefore, what works for one person is not necessarily what works for other people. But those blog classes like mindfulness and neurofeedback works for pretty much every so that’s why I start there. There’s other things that may work for you. Things like L-tyrosine, which of course is the precursor to dopamine, does work for–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  A certain percentage of people as a—as a support to attention pretty profoundly and I—I have a hunch that it’s working best for those people who’ve either been on stimulants, on who’ve got you know, one very sort of narrow subtype of ADHD where it’s really about a dopa—a dopamine receptor you know, proliferation. And for those people I think L-tyrosine is actually helping in need. There’s no real evidence that supplementing L-tyrosine increases levels of dopamine, but I have a sort of perspective on it where I’m gonna let the dopamine system regulate itself, because you know, anything goes directly to synapse or increases release of dopamine, things like stimulants. Those are always gonna be adapted to by the system because there are supraphysiological. They’re dangerous. They’re—they’re alarming to the brain and the brain has to adapt and, therefore, meaning tolerance, addiction especially in dopamine. So my perspective on this stuff is always to back up a level in the regulatory space if you will and feed the neurons, feed the dopamine neurons what they need to use their enzymatic chain to make dopamine. And there you’ll only get more dopamine if you actually need more dopamine in the moment. I mean I’m really somebody who—who believes that there’s no such thing as a chemical imbalance in the brain. It can’t really exist and there’s you know, massive sweeps of regulatory tuning in terms of receptor density and receptor sensitivity and all kinds of other things like that but my—my perspective on monkeying with the systems is they know how to regulate themselves and any ideas we have about what we’re are gonna be really imperfect at best, and you know, therefore, we’re gonna be trying things that don’t make sense. I think we got lucky with you know, SSRIs as mentioned earlier, Prozac. We now know that Prozac, yeah, if does work on serotonin, but not necessarily to increase it, you know, all sorts of neurons have autoreceptors that measure the amount of serotonin in the synapse that they are releasing into the synapse.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And if SSRIs decrease breakdown and, therefore, increase synaptic levels of serotonin, the autoreceptor shuts down release. So actually you have to adapt to it, you get sort of lower tonic release of serotonin in your—in your brain than you—than you did before you started taking whatever it was. You know, the SSRI. That’s—that sounds like that can’t possibly be true because serotonin’s the happy chemical and it—it’s antidepressive. It’s just not. I mean, if you—there’s something about the anxiety, it’s a little more closely linked to serotonin. But the antidepressive—antidepression effects of the SSRIs as well as anything else that lists depression, be it learning new things, be it exercise, be it whatever you’re dealing. The final common pathway if you will of depression release seems to be increase of BDNF. Brain derived–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Neurotropic factor.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Neurotropic factor, right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  In the hippocampus, which is all about learning and integrating information. That—that’s kinda what that job is and that’s really the key, yeah, I think. The key plasticity if you will, neuroregulatory factors. So it’s all about, I think the name of the game is BDNF. And depression is elicited by raising it through indirectly, you know, many steps back by—by tweaking serotonin and the brain responds to that loud signal by—wait, what’s going on? And getting a little more plastic if not integrate the slightly bizarre signal it’s getting from the SSRI is my—is my take on it. It cannot be, you know, perfect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about B vitamins? How about B vi—I find B6 or P5P–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Pyridoxal-5-phosphate–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Sure. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Is deemed really important to help convert some of these amino acids in the brain.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Oh, yeah, all—all kinds of reasons. I mean, just look at the Krebs cycle,

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Just think back to our physical biology, there’s all kinds of amazing things that B vitamins do to the Krebs cycle, specifically some of the, you know, nicotinamide riboside, NA—NADH in terms of electronic streams. There was some related research—sorry—there’s related compounds in the Krebs cycle called alpha-ketoglutarate.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Which recently some research came out of UCLA, about a year ago, that showed that the anti-aging benefits in model organisms, C. elegans in this case. The anti-aging benefits of alpha-ketoglutarate are like 10 times higher than resveratrol in the same organisms and through a differnet mechanism—we know the resveratrol activates sort of the stress response gene, CERT, and that seems to be how they cause, you know, the sort of French paradox and other you know, animal model documented life-extension things. But the—the alpha-ketoglutarate is operating in a different place. It seems to be tweaking the Krebs somehow and, therefore, optimizing energy production. So all the other thing that tweak CERT, like caloric restriction, like cold stress–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  They do extend lifespan in model organisms but they do it at the cost of either mobility or reproduction, right? The animal become less metabolically active and that’s what happens if you restrict calories in humans, too, you know? Eventually we downregulate metabolism, not—not immediately.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But eventually and—and so caloric restriction is the only biohacking modality that’s been proven to actually affect aging, but in model organisms, it does do it at the cost of metabolic output and it probably–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Does the same thing in humans. So I’m excited about not only B vitamins, but things like alpha-ketoglutarate and this is the idea of going after the energy, you know, production machinery a little bit more directly. You know, lubricating ATP production. So B5, B12, and of course, we need versions that can cross-convert a methyl state, so ideally hydroxos and things. So yeah, I—I think a really good compliment B vitamin is kinda necessary. I think that you can also get really specific in a way that we don’t really understand yet, in terms of what you might need for B vitamins. I mean, there’s a lot of that genetic research done looking at methylation analyses–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And that’s essentially a study of how B vitamins are used in metabolism of energy and neurotransmitters. You know, that’s sort of how—how that—those analyses are used least. And–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when you’re talking about B vitamins and B12 though, you have like methyl B12–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you mentioned the hydroxyl and the adenosyl, when would you recommend one over the other?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I don’t know is the short answer.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And I—I don’t—I don’t think enough is known. I mean, the—the methylation stuff, you know, it’s not well-established. There’s—from my perspective and—and I come from sort of the optimism space being clinically many years ago, there’s a lot of focus on methylation in childhood diseases or development including these you know, things like autism and Fragile X and a lot—there was a lot of focus for many years on energy production and methylation. And some of it seems to do something in some of these people and some of it is just bad science, and we don’t know the line between it unfortunately because it’s grown out of a population of people who’ve been trying every—I mean, when you have an autistic kid, you try everything until you find something that works, and almost nothing works. This is how—this is why autistic spectrum population is a pretty good segment of the neurofeedback market because they discovered that it actually affect the brain, very little effects, you know, profoundly affects the brain people of autistic people. Neurofeedback can, doesn’t always, but it can. And that got a lot of attention in that community, so therefore, you know, word of mouth is very high, and—and that’s why there’s a big push there. And the same thing is true with methylation. Sometimes the right B vitamin cocktail, you know, dial it in in an authoritative manner.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Are you familiar with—with pyroluria condition where you need excessive B6 and zinc levels?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, I’ve heard of that. It seems to be related to phenylketonuria as well where there’s some aspartame sensitivities, right? It’s a similar genetic, but it’s more about elimination of—of some core vitamins.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so they—they need just accelerated levels of B6 and zinc and—and will see some of it–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  On the organic acids test, but we give them higher levels of B6 or zinc and helps their mood or helps their sleep or helps whatever else in their energy systems to function better.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Do you have any clinical experience with that?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I—I don’t, but really this is outside my area of expertise. I—I sort of do a little bit of personal biohacking in this space but my understanding of supplements is not as broad probably as my understanding of nootropics, so you know, B vitamins when I think about them are all about, “Mmm, how can I t weak the brain?” So I think, you know, B vitamins, I think like saw beauty in the, you know, which is a thiamine, a B1 dimer essentially gets into the brain and then cleaves. Then you have a massive hit of thiamine to the brain and if somebody came in as an alcoholic, I would—I would think, “Ooh, thiamine.” Because they have impaired B1 metabolism from drinking alcohol for many years and they probably have memory issues and—and failing the basal brain like mammal antibodies because of thiamine deficiencies. So I have a very specific you know brain focus on this stuff and not a good understanding of either the—you know, the phlebotomy driven if you will understanding of—of the biochemistry. It’s just not—I work at a very high-level of brain waves, so for me it’s all about tweaking that—that dance versus reading out the—the low-level output if that makes any sense.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so let’s shift gears with some of the smart drugs that you’ve–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You’ve done. I know we kinda have our pallet here, whether it’s modafinil or piracetam or aniracetam or oxiracetam. What’s—what are your favorites? I know in the past you’d mentioned you’re not–

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A big fan of the modafinil, so I’ll let you have it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, you know, of course, I have designed TruBrain.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And so I’m a big fan of mix of classic you know, a—a racetam plus a good choline, plus a few other things to support it and that’s sort of what went into the TruBrain formulations. Personally I—I’m still, you know, I still—piracetam and either CDP-choline or Alpha-GPC, still the best one to you know, combination I’ve ever found. And—and there hasn’t seem to be any downside or tolerance in these things when used for years and years and years, so that’s the, you know, the more serious biohacker’s you know, stack or the beginning biohacker stack potentially, but a little bit less racy, less risky, less you know, fully understood would be things like L-theanine. I—I mean I’m a big fan. I—I keep a couple things around my house, my office, and my campsite when I’m hanging out with my hippie buddies.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And those include L-theanine and ibuprofen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Ahh.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Because L-theanine can pull back over caffeination pretty quicky.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And over arousal, anxiety, and a few other things.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It’s doing that with GABA, right?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  For some people. Yeah, it’s very GABAergically–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It appears to be very GABAergic in alpha wave productions. If you really, you know, can break some—break some stage that aren’t comfortable, and then ibuprofen for—for those folks that have like, you know, smoked one too many joints or eaten one too many pot cookies and their, you know–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Freaking out because of that. Ibuprofen can knock back THC intoxication a little bit and—and help people who are in crisis. So from my perspective, there’s a 2-mile like emergency kit if you will, nootropics. Even though ibuprofen is not really nootropics. In fact, pain killers in general probably should not be considered nootropics because evidences is—is—and I’m sorry, analgesic pain killers, ibuprofen, acetaminophen, those are just things—the research is mounting that they actually turn off either learning or empathy a little bit in some cases. Now ibuprofen seems to be the better case these days because the cannabis research anyways, there’s evidence that it eliminates the memory formation problems that happen when you’re high as well as–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Reducing some of intoxic—the high level of intoxication that people gotten in trouble with it. So there’s a little bit of benefit there but a lot of things do actually tweak brain function fairly profoundly, and we don’t yet know, you know, what that necessarily is for many of these things. Even things like Tylenol and you know, ibuprofen, these—the brand names—I guess Advil is a brand name of that one, but whatever. Even those are not necessarily you know, that are without side effects and there are organ system issues with all those drugs as well–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I mean, kidney for ibuprofen–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Elevated liver enzymes. Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And liver for Tylenol.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And every year–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Gut lining. Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know, people make sui–yeah, gut lining for apirin—or ibuprofen. Every year people make—make suicide attempts with Tylenol and end up in liver transplant wards waiting for a liver because Tylenol’s so profoundly toxic to the liver. So yeah, not those but I—I also think, and get back to the ADHD question, there needs to be a big emphasis on not only systemic inflammation but supporting lipid metabolism through things like fatty supplementation, you know, Omega 3s, medium-chain triglyceride, even get good ketone production. For me, the—the focus on nutrition is shifting more towards getting crap out, you know, bad sugar, bad starch, actually all sugar bad starch and leaving in or enhancing the quality fats which include Omega 3s, Omega 9s–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Medium-chain triglyceride–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Usually food sources of those but I’ll toss them. I’m not a fan of refined oils. I—I don’t love them and most forms of refining I find either strip things out or leave things rancid, and so I try to get as much as possible from food, of course not always possible, and so I do supplement with DHA. That’s the only Omega that I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Supplement and I get it form of—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Algae or fish?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  In, yeah, exactly. Algae.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  TruBrain—the—the capsule form of TruBrain, still has a DHA capsule in the afternoon packet, and so we—that’s my sort of baseline—gotta get some Omega 3’s in because I know my body can cross convert as necessary. It’s not efficient but if necessary to make EPA from DHA and DHA seems to have more brain affinity so it’s a better, you know, Omega to go after if you’re gonna supplement and then I of course, keep my diet super low and grain-fed in anything including, you know, I don’t eat grains. I try not to eat anything that’s eaten grains.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And that keeps my Omega 6’s pretty low, too, which is, you know, something Westerners, specifically Americans are quite bad at.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and it sounds like you like really established to—to really have good fats, kind of a Paleo template-esque as well.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I did, I guess. I mean—I didn’t know it was called that, you know, I was—I was sort of looking at initially of course, I don’t know, 20-25 years ago I—I read this book, and it was all about cycling ultra-low and ultra-high carbs and you know, there’s some flaws in the theories in the book but it had really good explanation how insulin works and it really stuck with me and there’s all kinds of you know, before that I thought insulin was just the thing that your body secretes in response to blood sugar spikes so then your cell can suck the blood sugar up and store it, either as fuel or lipids, whatever. But you know, I sort of realize at that time that it actually is tied to all these other hormones and other regulatory, modulatory things that cause you know, catabolic or some anabolic changes and releases of growth hormone and—and cortisol and it started it started to get me thinking a lot about how probably somewhat a time bomb the—the typical way of eating, which was like repetitively spiking our blood sugar. I mean, let me—let me—the—the blood sugar question is fairly well understood but it’s also not, not magical. We dropped back to a sub—a less well understood but also very similar feature of regulatory systems in the body or brain which is cortisol in the brain, high levels of cortisol, a person responds to stress and it goes up so you can focus and be alert and a bunch of other things happen in the brain and the body, but in the brain, it watches the range of cortisol and as it goes up, it responds and when it goes down, it responds differently. If the cortisol level goes up and stays up, response fails. The brain stops responding and eventually those high levels of cortisol start killing brain tissue and you know what, that’s exactly what happened in things like diabetes. If insulin goes up and stays up with repetitively spiking your blood sugar until eventually your cells stop responding to the insulinogenic signal and that causes a cascade of failures at every level.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  In body metabolism and aging and repair and growth and learning and, I mean, the list goes on.  And so I figured that out about 20 years ago and, yes, I have a slight, you know, problem with ice cream occasionally I will admit it. But on the days that I’m being good, I’m perfect.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And I’m good about 80% or 85% or 90% of the time, and on those days I’m absolutely damn ironclad on keeping my total carbohydrates below 65g.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup,

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Unless I worked out you know, hugely—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Like a 90-minute ______ class when I can barely let myself off the ground, then I might have you know, like an extra 20g of carbohydrates right after that and coconut water or something to replenish my glycogen from my you know, quivering muscles.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But that’s when I have profound physiologic signal of you know, glycogen depletion and good note for, you know, levels of carb intake, the human body is fully depleted can store about 50g of carbohydrates per hour.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Of glycogen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So you know, you—it would never make sense to—to take more than you can store and spiking for me anyways, I sort of figured it out it used to be around 20g of raw carbohydrate seems to spike my blood sugar and I—so, so my—my general rule is never more than 20g at anyone sitting, never drink my carbohydrate—it seems to spike things faster if it’s you know, sugar in a drink or you know, even milk or something versus—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about the Glycemic Index though?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Ah, Glycemic Index is a load of hooey. It’s—it’s about—it’s about as accurate as—as calories, you know? Which are also a load of hooey.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about—how about the—how about the glycemic load?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Ahh, see that’s—that’s a valid concept.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  We just don’t know necessarily how foods produce it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  The—the rating of food is, you know, arbitrary little bit but the—the effects of load on insulin and—and the carrying capacity if you will is occupying sensory—a sensing molecule is—is a real thing. I don’t know what that is but I do know if you keep your in—if you keep your signal of sugar low, very low in the body, the way regulatory systems work is s they listen harder. What that means for insulin is increased insulin sensitivity.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So I don’t think it matters if you’re in ketogenesis or if you’re Paleo or Primal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I think if you—if you stop spiking your damn insulin, and you get a sense of what that feels like when you occasionally go over it, I mean, if you spike it every day you don’t notice it. But if you spike it once a week, you—you know exactly what it feels like to have your insulin go up a little—a little bit above, you know, where you need because you have this drunk feeling and you get a little bit sleepy afterwards, and—but you know, after you adapt to lowish carbs and high fat, energy is rock solid stable. So at some point I figured this out and about the same time we started figuring out as a you know, culture if you will—Westerners how problematic you know, many grains mass produced farm grains at least are—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  In—in their correct format, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And I started two’s together, I went, “Oh yeah, that’s what my gut feels like, you know, pun intended, feels like crap all the time is because of all this, you know,  inflammation and sludge moving through my system all the time from eating pizza and whatever else I was eating in the 80s and 90’s.” So you know, yeah, it ends up being Paleo or Primal-esque and I—and I would say, I would say that you know, more—more primal blueprint if we have to tie it to an existing pran—plan in Paleo because I do think there’s a place for dairy in humans, or can be at least, not—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Not every human can handle it and we have to make space for inter-individual variability but dairy in a cultured or fermented form, I’m just not willing to give it up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know? And there’s, you know, we can make a rationale but historically, ancestral health although I don’t generally make that connection because humans are ridiculously adaptable so we can point to any population in history and point out something that they’ve eaten that we couldn’t handle now. You know? People are variable. So whatever works for you is really what’s important. The insulin as a general rule, you know, carb loads are rules, the general—general guidelines are not you know, ironclad what’s gonna work for you, but—but I do think that you know, cheese and cultured butter and—and other fermented, you know, dairy can be fairly beneficial to the body I think it—it can develop in the gut biome can break it down to—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  To useful things. I think it can be a really great source of nutrition and I’m, you know, I’m also of Scotch-Irish ancestry. I’m gonna eat me some cheese.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know, some really sharp, crumbly you know, grab me by the tongue and squeeze kinda cheese.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely,

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I have to have that. It’s—it’s built into my—into my body.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And if you can do raw cheese—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You know, obviously if you get more of the enzymes intact so you can break down the casein and protein—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Exactly.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Which tends to be the more—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Problematic protein out of them all.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah and—more problematic and it’s also huge again, genetic variability in terms of—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Can you handle that or not? Right? And I am blessed to be able to handle dairy, no problem. I’m cursed so that at least current generation, you know, mass-produced chemical shit storm wheat—I can’t handle and I’m not like half the Americans who seem to have no problem with, you know, mass-produced wheat. I’m of the, you know, at least 40%, 50% that seem to have fairly significant issues with—with eating you know, bread so to speak from commercial grains. So, you know, I was a baker throughout high school and into college.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Huh.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And I’m a—I’m a nominal cook. I’m an amazing baker.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nice.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I can bake you anything you want, name it. I’ll walk into a kitchen. If there’s ingredients, you’ll—you’ll, you know, be happy but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Awesome.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I can’t—I can’t bake. You know, I can’t bake with wheat, with gluten as an adult essentially, as a—as a grown man because of the lack of, you know, ability to handle it and I—and I—this is—this not a new thing. I didn’t know why I had poor digestion as a teen and you know, early 20’s person but I did and it was eventually because of you know, of—of grains. I—I have a hard time wrapping my head around us as a society and human creature, culture, developing this big, fat, greedy, hungry brains that needed high starch to really be fueled with the fact that half the planet seems to be struggling to metabolize starches and grains. These two things are really incongruous to me and I don’t—I can’t quite wrap my head around it. I don’t quite believe the full you know, idea that we’ve distorted the plants you know, too profoundly because—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Humans are adaptable and—and they seem to be able to adjust long-term to re—and quickly to big changes in diet. I just don’t understand why we’re having such a hard time. I—this strikes me as a blind man and elephant situation.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  What I discovered there’s some third factor that’s really you know, causative in destabilizing our ability to handle brains, and you know, 50 years ago that doctor was not present.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think it is—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Nowadays it is.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I know, if you’ve read Dr. Davis’ book, he talks about the—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-huh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Genetic modification of wheat, not like the genetic modification when we’re talking about with like Monsanto, but just we’ve started off—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  With breeding.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  With breeding.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Just kinda cross-breeding.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We have this einkorn wheat that was nine chromosomes and then we—we kinda cross, you know, cross-bred it so it can produce more gluten and you know, we’re res—basically be able to withstand various weathers and conditions. Now part of that from what I’ve seen with the genetic mod—genetic modificaion and the hybridization, the gluten content—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Has gone up significantly. I think 50%, 75%. So part of it could be just the extra gluten that is present that maybe wasn’t there years back.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Maybe. I think it’s really—it may be due to that or the gluten may have changed in some—in some form. And the reason I think of this is oats. You know, oats do not actually have true gluten. They have only gliadin, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You have other forms of—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Zeen—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Gluten, gluten-like proteins.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Or avenin, avenin.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, but—but exactly. It’s different.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And theoretically, if there’s no cross-contamination, you have gluten-free oats, theoretically people shouldn’t have an issue with them, and you know, I’m about as—as pale as they come as sickly, you know, 23andMe points me at Scotland and Ireland and is not unsure about it at all. You know, I’m like I’m one of people. I’m short. I’m wide. I can climb mountains. I hang out in cold climates and love it. You know, I’m—my people ate oats and I as an adult cannot handle gluten-free oats all that. You know, a little bit but not all that well and there’s not a lot of those proteins in something like oats compared to true wheat, so I’m not sure what it is. I think there’s something else. I think we’ll discover that there’s something unrelated to wheat completely, unrelated to food completely that has changed how we—how we do this and I don’t know if it’s—you know, something in a processing step or—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about Roundup? How much is the—the glyphosate contributing?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know, and maybe—and maybe 20 years of ex—of exposure to that you know, in my traditional western diet has sensitized me forever to you know, those type of proteins found in starchy you know, grains. I held feeds just fine but not—but not grains. So and again—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  This is an N of 1 and I’m, you know, just an informed consumer here, but I—I think that those—those glyphosphate and other you know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Chemically induced problems, we—we know those things cause problems. You know, when I was in grade school, you know, I wrote a paper on how DDT made you know, eggs fragile and it was—had to be removed for the environment in like 70s.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And this is not—this is you know, there’s always things like this. Every year, we go, “Oh, yeah, oh yeah, BPA. Ooh, oh yeah, that, hmm. Okay, let’s get that out of the environment, let’s get that—that out of our diet,” and one of those things is gonna be—is gonna interact the gut environment, the micro via the—the genetic expression of the microbiome, something will—is gonna be manning—there are many, many times the genetic, you know, material load of chromosomes in our gut that are not human DNA—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Than—than there are. You know, the microbiome is incredibly more complex than our own genome, profoundly more, you know, many, many, many, many, many, many times bigger in terms of number of actual genes, and you know, I have a hunch that we’re—we’re gonna find something in there is—is you know, thrown off by something we’re doing—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  As a modern people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And I guess the next will be comes down to how long does it take for our DNA to adapt, because I know where human species have been around at some level at 1.8 million years, but perhaps and what grains have been here about 10,000. So I guess the question becomes are all of us adapting at that same rate to be able to handle grains?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, I mean, it’s a bit of—what you mean by adaptation?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Being able to digest. Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  We seem to very float—yeah, but that—that might happen quickly. It’s—I don’t think we fully understand what it—what is necessary in producing those, you know, old enzymes and ways to break down material. Like for instance, we can’t digest cellulose anymore, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  At one point in our development as—as creatures, we could eat wood pulp and survive off of it probably if we had to. That’s no longer the case. We no longer have those enzymes. You know, that swept through the population probably over many thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands of years, we weren’t quite yet human. But other things, you know, your—your grandparents had an experience that’s affecting your genes right now, Dr. Justin, you know?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I mean, if your—if your grandparents were at World War II, I’m assuming you’re about my age—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And they experienced trauma or you know, stress—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Or anything else, the way your brain and body secrete and respond to cortisol is different than it would be—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Otherwise.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know, two generations of epigenetic, sort of cascade—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Have affected you. So the question about you know, how quickly does it take to adapt is unfortunately you know, becoming blurrier and blurrier the more we—we discover about the—the genetic expression or the organism learns and changes and patterns on the environment. You know, the—the gene for sort of modern big brain size that is in humans, I think it swept through the primate population at the time in something like 20,000 years which is absolutely fast. I mean, there’s no way that—that could—that could have happened by breeding pressure. You know, it happened through a combination of a bunch of factors probably including things like natural disasters and isolated certain population.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I mean, who knows what else, but you know, those are individual—actually two or three identified gene based on brain size, and those swept through the population in a—in a blink on an evolutionary timescale. But we talk about evolution as if it’s this massive glacier melting, no—no pun unintended.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Thing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And it can be, you know, this is why I’m—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  The fact that I’m bald is—is gla—is a function of glacial evolution. It—it took a long time for that to show up, but the fact that I was hyperactive as a kid, the fact that I’m sensitive to gluten and other forms you know, grains. That might simply be a function of my genome going “Dude, that hurt,” or “I gotta respond to that,” or “That’s dangerous,” and I ‘m not sure what it responded to but it’s unfortunately left me unable to you know, enjoy baking or—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Consuming, you know, really good pizza which is—which tragic.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And what’s the evolutionary role for baldness? I know you were kind of touching on that briefly there.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Ah, you know, I don’t know, I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A theory?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I see a few theories including things like it allows radiation of heat a lot better.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Because the brain is ridic—I mean, 90% of body heat is sort of escaping through the head. If you’re bald, you lose more heat through the top of your head. It allows your brain to cool itself more. There’s also some testosterone you know, relationships where it might not an adaptation so much as a you know, epiphenomenon of some other adaptation. Slightly higher testosterone expression or—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Or your levels in the—in the skin produce suppression of the follicle which is male pattern baldness, that set link characteristic of male pattern baldness, not all pair of patters in all baldness, but you know, the one that I have is—is probably a high level testosterone that reduced you know, the follicle. I’m not sure it—it produced, I mean who knows? The more I learn about the brain and the body, the more I’m surprised at how damn efficient every adaptation is. Nothing seems to happen by random and adapation is that you think serve one feature, serve multiple often. So I wouldn’t be surprised if at the same the organism was learning to become more efficient or a heat radiator. The same adaptation made it more you know, competitive sexually or something, and that meant the genes proliferating, you got both baldness and higher level of testosterone with some creatures, you know? But for me and I work in EEG which is a mysterious space. For me, understanding plausible is enough.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  If we can tweak a system and they can respond, then plausible is—is good enough as long as we are fighting is what is actual.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Interesting.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And we’re discovering what is actual in things like follicles. You know, there was a study out a few months ago that showed that—that they’ve figured out why hair goes gray and it looks like the same mechanism actually might be related to the—the key of the suppression of the follicle. There are some—some evidence that they tested but there’s some theory that was generated by this first finding. The first finding was, “Oh, look! Here’s what makes hair go gray.” And that actually explains why thigns like resveratrol may actually reverse—may actually plausibly reverse graying in some people who—who claim that it does, it’s not a wide—widespread phenomenon but it seems to happen. But the same mechanism seems to you know, suggest suppression of hair follicle and so we might be like right around the corner from you know, no more male pattern baldness through cosmetic you know, pharmacology if you will or genetic manipulation or who knows but it seems to be we’re right around the corner from—from solving that if you will. And then I’ll have a very firm opinion about how it works.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it. So you’re thinking—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  But right now, you know—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It doesn’t matter.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So you’re thinking the resveratrol could be helpful?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I think it probably can be. You know, I don’t—I don’t mind being bald, you know? I—Ia m—I guess I’m blessed in that I have a sort of Patrick Stewart shaped head.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And so I can cool it off—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  it’s fairly, it’s fairly round. There’s not a lot going on up there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Beyond curve.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I—I can pull that off and I, you know, I wear glasses so doesn’t mean to break in that expanse of flesh but—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It doesn’t really bother me and I don’t really care too much about it. But yeah, resveratrol will probably or some related molecule probably, you know, unsupress the follicle, I mean, right now resveratrol has other uses, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mitochondria, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You’re taking resveratrol for mitochondrial support.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  It seems to suppress estrogenation or other Romanization—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Of some hormones, so take it to protect the heart valve. If you’re taking other compounds can be useful. You know, there’s a few other like—like serotonergic but you don’t wanna take 5HTP and—and other serotonin converting things and get peripheral nervous system serotonin, that will do damage. You know, you’ll get peripheral neuropathy and damage your heart valve. If you wanna take you know, resveratrol and things like to suppress Romanization of hormones, but I—I bet we’re gonna discover something else like that, and suddenly sprout big, thick full heads of hair. And—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Love it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And will I try it? Sure. You know, because I actually have a gorgeous—you wouldn’t know this—but I have a gorgeous you know, reddish blonde Scottish mane.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nice.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And you know, it’s been 25 years since I’ve seen it, and you know, I can grow a ground _____ Willy style moustache right now.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nice.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And I might, but it’d be kinda fun to go all full like you know, lion again, just playing in my age, so I say, yeah. I—as much as I am sort of laughing about who cares if we cure baldness, I would probably partake if there was a you know, natural-ish substance that I could tweak my—my follicles with.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely, I love that. Well, kinda finishing up here. I wanna just go through just a—a rapid question round for you. Just kinda hit these next couple things off.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Just really quick, sound good?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Alright. ADHD, what are the top 3 things you do for that?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Meditate, neurofeedback and drop sugar out of your diet.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Addiction.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Understand why you’re using.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Is it impulsivity?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Is it boredom? Is it discomfort with your emotions? Is it brain injury that lead you to behave where you weren’t inspecting. Figure out which it is and solve it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Got it. You’re studying for an exam. What are the best things to get your brain revved up for that?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  The best thing is to space your practice versus mass your practice first of all.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Short breaks ideally with rest and sleep in between them over many days to ensure consolidation. The other thing is to put yourself in the perspective of get to versus have to.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So engaged with your—engage with your material because it’s fun and find a way to make it so. And the third thing is don’t binge on food when you’re studying. Snack very lightly make.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  To make sure you don’t end up in a—in a bonk, blood sugar-wise which will completely abolish the learning and studying interest you have for that session.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. Top three smart drugs.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Clearly, piracetam, cito— citrocholine and let’s say DHA.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  DHA.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  These are the kinds of drug. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. Basically the 22 carbon fat and the fish oil. Awesome.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, it seems to, you know, and maybe even Vitamin D might even fall in that category.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  These things are so profound in—in so many tissues and supporting so much metabolism. I think they upregulate stock even when it’s not noticeable.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. Recovering from brain trauma or a TBI.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  First thing, don’t do anything immediately.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Fast, right?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Don’t jostle your brain physically or mentally.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  For a few weeks then drop inflammation, which means rest, low sugar, and then you can start doing things like neurofeedback and concentration-focused mindfulness to start waking up all that bruised and delta-rich cortex.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I’ve seen a low of stuff on low-calorie diets especially for a couple days after the injury.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, it’s just that fasting produces a drop in inflammation, so you know. Yeah, basically you gotta rest and you can’t even think hard ideally. You know, you definitely, you know, the—the damage comes in concussions from the second impact that you get in certainly within 3-5 days but maybe even 3-5 weeks after a first significant insult to the brain. There’s all these inflammatory cytokines that cause inflammation after the first insult that protect the brain in the—in the short term but make it fragile, make the tissue very shatterable for days and if you receive a second impact in that time, the damage—the damage is much more profound. You know, the damage carries through the brain , you know, through a solid almost, the way it would like a block of ice instead of just kinda pushing on a—on a corner like a piece of Jell-O or something, so—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You gotta let your brain rest for weeks, you know, 3 to 5 weeks if it’s a significant injury, and you can rebuild, you know, if you’re somebody who’s had a lot of wear and tear, brain fog, irritability, wearing out mid-day with cognitive fatigue, those are the—those are the 3 big signs. If you are somebody who’s post-concussive and you—you  realize that you still are, you know, months or years later, do something about it. Get some neurofeedback. You can completely—not completely maybe—but you can certainly affect it positively. And there are some long-term risk for many post-concussive. You know we know now that, you know, there’s a study out a few years ago, not even a few months ago I think or something last year, that showed that high school football players who never played a game but practiced with the team show early signs the chroma—of chronic, or sorry—CT, chronic, traumatic encephalopathy. From beginning brain scan, to the beginning to the end of the season, without ever playing a game—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Simply doing practice. So the amount of damage the brain can actually shrug off is negligible. It’s not really supposed to be bounced.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Or st—or change direction suddenly at 60 miles an hour. It’s not designed to go 90 miles an hour highway and suddenly stop, you know, or anything else where—where you’re launched through the world and then suddenly stopped. The brain’s great at you know, not that extreme impact, but it fails very quickly over a certain amount of impact. Let’s say it’s not force and we hit that force all the time. A single—there’s a study out 2 weeks ago maybe—a single stocker heading drill, and in heading the ball 20-30 times in a few minutes, memory test before and after showed a three quarters drop in performance, severe hermit.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Right afterwards. Now, the study didn’t—didn’t look at long-term, it looked at immediate and it found a—and it found massive GABA-ergic, well, they were hypothesizing GABA as an inflammatory response but they found inflammatory markers and they found massive impairments in memory right after drill, and those things we know are things the brain learns from and—and responds to. So there is no safe level of head impact, you know? If I ever have a kid in high school, they are not going to play football or soccer. You know, I—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That was my next question.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah. Never.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Would you like your kid to play football?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  No, I would not. No, I would not.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And what do you think about what’s happening with the NFL? I mean, do you think this is just like smoking in the 1950s and it’s just, we’re just waiting for enough—

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Research to come to a head?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yes, absolutely. Yup, absolutely. The—the NFL will become and also ran a small network of people who were the bad boys who still continue to do this thing that leaves people damaged. The NFL will be seen as an organization like Monsanto that has secretly known for decades that they’ve been injuring and killing people and had been doing lots with millions of legal dollars to keep that suppressed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  And we will discover that if there—it just isn’t. It was never safe. That will be considered a barbaric time in—in 50 years.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think you’re right. Well, here, last question with you Dr. Hill before we find out more about where everyone can go see you. If you’re on a desert island, what’s the one supplement or nutrient you bring with you?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Alright, well, does this—does this desert island have coconut trees or not?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It does, so you’re gonna have the medium chain triglycerides there.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Nice. So if I have coconut meat and—and fat and everything else—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You could probably fish, too, so you’re Omega 3’s and DHA will be recovered.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I can fish, I got my DHA, you know, okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Sunlight, vitamin D, that’s covered.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I think that—I think that something, maybe beta-carotene.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, so vitamin A.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Or, no, I don’t know, I may go get astaxanthin from like—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Shellfish.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You probably would.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  So, hmm, what—what can I—what couldn’t I get from a natural, from an island I really needed? Yeah, I would probably have to say something like piracetam.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You know? but not, you know, let me—let me give you a non-standard answer. I—I wouldn’t bring any racetams with me. I’m on a desert island. I’m gonna relax.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  I’m gonna fish. I’m gonna you know, I’m gonna get plenty of vitamin D and—and good food and you know, maybe—maybe grow some vegetables. Huh! But if I’m actually on a desert island, high-performance is not my survival. I’m gonna survive and once I’m surviving, I think—I think the environmental press of—of having to live and pry on a desert island would be sufficient nootropic to keep me functioning at my highest level.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. very cool, Dr. Hill. Now people who are listening, they wanna find out more about you and about TruBrain and about some of the services that—that you provide. Where is the best place to find more info on you?

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Yeah, so fols can check me out at @AndrewHillPHD on Twitter. I think I’m also at Instagram, but that’s a pretty anemic page. Peak Brain LA, Peak Brain Institute has a Twitter, @peakbrainLA. We have a website, peakbraininstitute and of course, trubrain.com—T-R-U-Brain dot com is the supplement—it’s the supplement that the nootropic stack that you mentioned that I helped design a few years ago, and you know, I’d love if people reach out and ask me a specific brain questions. We have very unique brains. You put 10 people in a room, there’s at least 11 different brains in that room from my perspective. You really gotta share what’s special about you and celebrate it or take control of it and tweak it and address it. So I’d love if folks have, you know, quirky brains they wanna share to look me up and—and find out what we’re doing and you know, there’s lots of ways to—to take control and change your brain, so give me shoutout if you want one.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Thanks a lot, Dr. Hill. It was a great talk and we look forward to chat with you again soon.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  My pleasure, Dr. Justin.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You take care. Have a good one.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  You, too. See ya.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bye now.

Dr. Andrew Hill:  Bye.

Putting together the optimal functional medicine program – Podcast #116

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand discuss about effective functional medicine programs and how they create and follow protocols. This interview goes in-depth about the world of functional medicine practice.

functional medicine programsFind out why you shouldn’t wait for something to happen before doing anything about it health-wise. Discover the differences between Body System One and Two and how optimal health can be attained. Learn about the various tests you can take and the right tools that are available to further achieve better and more effective results with functional medicine.

In this episode, topics include:

01:26   Get help as early as possible

07:00   Body System One

10:19   Diet and lifestyle

17:16   Body System Two

38:22   Tests

itune

 

 

youtuve

 

 

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, Evan, it’s Dr. J in the flesh. How we doin’ this Monday?

Evan Brand:  Hey, man! I’m doing great. How are you?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I’m doing great. Can’t complain. It’s a little rainy Monday here in Austin. The grass is getting plenty of water which is great. I got the fireplace on behind me, so it’s got that wintery Christmas feel a little bit.

Evan Brand:  Nice. Excellent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Can’t complain. How about you?

Evan Brand:  Doing well, man. Hey, we were trying to record this thing, and then we had choppy audio so I wanna repeat what my little rant was because I thought that was important. I’m always curious about what is the catalyst for someone to work with yourself or myself, and I had a lady this morning who had been listening to us for six months and she knew that she had problems. She had a lot of gut issues going on but she continued to just listen to try to fix herself, and then she got the diagnosis of alopecia and now she’s lost over half the hair on her head, and now she’s figured out that that’s the time to come and get help. And I just want that to be a fire under people’s butts listening that you shouldn’t wait until things are so bad that you’re at rock bottom before you get help and unfortunately, that’s the conventional system that we’ve all been brainwashed to do which is we wait until we’re really bad, we absolutely need a doctor or practitioner and then we go get help. And my advice, get help now. If you have symptoms and things are off, and this is something you’ve—you’ve trained me on so much. It’s like, “Evan, look, these issues are not gonna resolve themselves. You have to resolve issues now. They’re not just gonna magically disappear.” Did you wanna speak on that a little bit about people just waiting too long or people just not having enough reason so they think to get help?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, well, there was an interesting scenario just the recently. There was a plumber in my house a few months back and he was doing some work, and there was just like a leak on the faucet, and for some reason the leak went away the next day. So there were two plumbers there and he goes down and looks, and he couldn’t find the leak. And he goes, “Well, maybe it just went away,” and then his partner, the plumber next to him spoke up and said, “You know what? Leaks never go away on their own. If there’s a leak, it’s gonna get worse.” So he went down there and he looked, and he said, “Okay, well, we just need more flow and if you had more flow coming, it would start to leak.” And he looked a little deeper back and he found the leak and just the environment wasn’t quite right enough for the leak to be expressing itself but the whole idea was that these problems don’t ever tend to go away by themselves. So that was kind of the moral of the story and connecting it to your patient, let’s say if you have these symptoms, they’re gonna get worse and the question is, how long do you wanna wait until those symptoms, right? Pain, pay attention inside now—that’s what symptoms are—whether it’s aesthetic, whether it’s inflammatory, whether it’s mood or energy. How bad do they have to get before you start getting a—a fire under your butt so to speak.

Evan Brand:  Right. Well, and my grandparents, their old house, you know, they had issues with their plumbing and they had to wait until their entire basement was flooded and thousands and thousands of dollars’ worth of carpet and furniture was ruined due to the flood before they came in and got the issue. So maybe they saved, you know, a couple hundred bucks in the beginning, but then it cost them likely $10,000 or more in the long run because they waited until things just hit an absolute worst-case scenario. So you know, I know there’s a lot of people out there listening that are trying to fix themselves and you and I certainly applaud that. I mean that’s what this is all about, right? Taking your health into your own hands and us teaching you how to fish, but at a certain level, you really just have to reach out and—and don’t be afraid to get better and—and don’t be afraid. You know, we’re real people. We don’t bite and we’re here for you. That’s what this is for. The show is to inspire you and to help you, but there’s nothing that’s gonna replace a one-on-one, you know, with one of us because there’s so many courses and online things, and things that you can look into, but it’s not specialized and I’m against specialization if you only look at one person. But you know, something we’re gonna talk about today is functional medicine is a specialty but we’re breaking that down. We’re—we’re looking at someone. We’re casting a net wide enough to look at every body system, so that we’re gonna figure out what in the world going on with somebody.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%. And so the template for how we treat patients is pretty unique for—for us as functional medicine clinicians, right? There a lot of nutritionists out there that will primarily just focus on the diet piece. There are a lot of medical doctors out there that I find that will a lot of time skip the diet, maybe focus on more of the hormones and ignore the gut. You have other people that will only work on infections, whether it’s Lyme or a gut doctor. They’re only focused on the infections. So the question is, how do we become the general or the ultimate general practitioner, where we can pull the key issues from the infections, from the hormones, from the diet, from the lifestyle, from the digestive system, and combine them together and mesh it? So we put it all together in a way that is holistic, that represents the underlying cause from each person, because that underlying cause percentage-wise may be different for each, meaning one person that may be 60% diet, 30% infections, and 10% hormones, and others it may be 30% diet, 50% hormones, 20% gut. So you gotta look at it from the perspective of what piece may be the bigger player, and it may not be the same for each person. So we may not know, but if we hit them all in the order that we consider to be the order of priority, that’s gonna give us the highest chance of hitting all of those key issues and not missing them.

Evan Brand:  Right, and during the free calls, you and I block out just a few hours each month for free calls, which we’re always booked up for those and it’s a true honor to be able to offer that to people.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely.

Evan Brand:  A lot of people ask us, “Hey, Justin or hey, Evan, you know, can you just tell me right now what tests we’re gonna need to run.” And we can’t because that involves a case review, that involves looking at your history, looking at the fork in the road when did things get bad, how long have things gotten bad, what else was going on at that time in your life in terms of stress and travel and relationships and moving. You know, so there really is no one-size-fits-all program. Now there are similar tests that we run on nearly everyone, but at the end of the day, it’s so case-by-case and I know people wanna just get put into a box because it makes them feel comfortable. I mean, think of like Weight Watchers, right? You know, it’s a point system and you can buy their little hundred-calorie snack packs of pretzels. But that’s a horrible box to be in and you don’t wanna be confined there. So it—it’s a box of functional medicine but it’s a box without boundaries, too, because we never know what toolbox or toolkit we’re gonna need to reach into to pull something out specifically based on—on your symptoms.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%. So we wanted kinda get things dialed in, and we have like the pallet of our tests that we may choose from for body system one. That’s like the hormonal system and we break that up into ATF and ATM, adrenals, thyroid and female hormones for our female patients and then our ATM, adrenals, thyroid and male hormones. And depending on how deep we go is depending upon what kind of symptoms present themselves and how long the patient’s been sick. Typically, the longer someone’s been sick, it may be better to get more data so we can fine tune the plan better, more specific to what’s going on. If someone’s been maybe not feeling good for just a little bit of time, maybe only a few years or a few months, we may run less off the bat because we don’t need as much data. Typically, the low hanging fruit tend to work on people that aren’t as chronic. So that’s kind of a good rule of thumb. So our body system one test are gonna typically include high-quality adrenal tests. Well, and that depends. I know we’re going back and forth and testing, you know, the new Biohealth saliva test that’ll be out soon. We’ve been using the Dutch for a bit of time. We have been using the old Biohealth 201. I have lots of patients that come in with other subpar salivary hormone testing that—that come in. We also look at the DHEA sulfate, which is an adrenal marker of sex hormone precursors from the adrenals, DHEA sulfate. And then we’ll also add on female and male hormones to those tests, whether it’s female hormones, progesterone, estrogen, estrogen metabolites, the different kinds of estrogens, estradiol, estrone, estriol, whether we are looking at the DHEA metabolites like androstenedione or etiocholanolone. Those also get factored in, maybe even melatonin as well. So we’ll look at all these different metabolites on the hormone side and then depending on if they’re showing with thyroid symptoms, we may even run a thyroid blood test or we’re looking at all of the thyroid markers, TSH, T4 Free and Total, T3 Free and Total, reverse T3, T3 uptake, and thyroid antibodies. So those are kind of all of the hormonal tests that we may run. And we even have some different. We may even time it up on day 20 of a female cycle if they’re—if they’re menstruating to get a window into where their hormones are tapping out. We may even look at a full month long panel, testing hormones every other day for a full month, so we can get a window of ovulation and the ebb and flow of the hormones throughout the month, just to make sure it’s optimal for fertility.

Evan Brand:  Yup, well said. So body system one. I mean, this is the foundation, you know. You talk about these people that just focus on the gut and we’ve dealt with that. I mean a lot of times and I know you hear this just as much as me if not more, “Oh, I’ve already been to 10 specialists or 20 specialists or 20 doctors. They all think I’m crazy or they said it was just the gut. They gave me antibiotics.” If you don’t get the hormones aligned and checked out, you’re kinda wasting your time really because if you have cortisol issues, you’re likely gonna have leaky gut issues which is gonna leave you susceptible to infections. So it’s like if we come in and just hit the gut, which we’ll talk about in a minute, body system two, it’s not really worth it, right? Because if you get the infection gone, but the leaky gut’s still there due to the cortisol issues, I mean, that’s kind of a bigger top of the food chain issue, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100% and just backing up one bit, everything sits on a foundation. So the introductory foundation for everything is diet and lifestyle.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And we’ve talked about this before, but just to make sure we don’t miss it, the foundation is gonna be what you eat, when you eat, the quality of food that you eat, how you sleep, how you move, how you deal with stress, and hydration. So that’s gonna be a really important piece of the puzzle. Making sure we’re eating nutrient-dense, anti-inflammatory, low toxin foods. Making sure the diet is dialed in for you. Now what does that mean for you? Well, if you’re just a little bit sick, maybe you’re kinda in the middle, it’s not too bad, a Paleo template may be good to start with. Alright, no grains, no legumes, no dairy. If we’ve been sick for longer, maybe we have a history of autoimmunity in the family, or there may be known autoimmunity in yourself or known autoimmune symptoms, well, the next step may be an Autoimmune Paleo template where we go to the next step which is cutting out nuts, nightshades, and eggs. And then from there if there’s excessive gut issues, we may look at specific carbohydrate diet where we cut out salicylates and phenols and peel our vegetables and—and make sure everything’s well cooked and mash our foods. We may even look at a GAPS approach where we focus more on bone broth and soups and—and the same type SCD stuff, more in a liquid, palatable—a liquid, more palatable type of form. And we may even go to a low FODMAP diet where we cut out the fermentable carbohydrates–fermentable oligo-di-po—let’s see, fermentable oligo-di-mono and polysaccharides. So it’s your—your fermentable carbohydrates, your fermentable sugars. So we may add that piece onto it just to make sure that we’re taking as much stress off the body. We’re stabilizing blood sugar. We’re not adding toxins from the pesticides and chemicals and GMO and Roundup and—and the glyphosate and we’re stabilizing blood sugar. We’re not skipping meals and we’re making sure that we’re sleeping good at night and we’re hydrating appropriately in between meals or 10 minutes before, so we’re not diluting digestive enzymes and hydrochloric acid.

Evan Brand:  Well said and there’s a ton of overlap in all of those, too. I mean–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  A ton.

Evan Brand:  You’re going to be omitting gluten. You’re gonna be omitting–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Many of the dairy components, the inflammatory component, then you’re going to stay away from pesticides and chemicals. I had a guy the other day. He asked me. He said, “Well, I’m not sensitive to gluten. So do I still have to avoid it?” I said, “Absolutely.” There’s no deficiency of gluten ever and just because you don’t think you’re sensitive to it, some of your skin rashes and all that is probably caused from some type of food intolerance. You know, you don’t have to be doubled over in pain from eating a bagel to—to necess—you know, to necessarily have to stay away from it, right? You don’t have to be falling over, needing a morphine shot due to the pain from gluten if you—if you have anything, any symptom, headaches. I mean I had a lady who had migraines for 20 years and it was amazing how simple it was just to get the diet and the gut cleaned up and the migraines went way. So I think people expect massive, massive symptom sometimes to be caused from gluten and otherwise, they don’t wanna get rid of it but you should just get rid of it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, my thing with grains and gluten is if you’re gonna cheat and you’re gonna do grains, number one, the safest grain for most people tend to be white rice. So that’s tends to be an okay alternative if you’re gonna do a grain, if you’re gonna cheat. White rice tends to be okay. Even better, try doing the safer starch. You know, yucca, plantains, sweet potatoes, let’s see—I said plantains, yucca, sweet potatoes,  squash—those type of safer starches tend to be a better alternative for most. Go ahead.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I was gonna say taro, too. Some people talk about that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Taro, arrowroot, yeah, and then also if you’re gonna—like let’s say you’re like, “I’m gonna do bread.” Well, sourdough bread has actually shown to have less gluten because of the fermentation process that gliadin protein tend to be more dissolved in the fermentation process. So if you’re gonna go get all glutened out, take a look at the good, better, best side of it, right? Good or best would be abstaining and doing zero grains. Good may be doing like white rice or better—sorry, better maybe doing like white rice or something that’s fully gluten-free. And then third would be, alright, fine. You’re gonna do a gluten bread, well, it’s gonna at least be fermented, i.e. sourdough bread. It’s fermented, so the gluten and the compounds in there that may be more allergenic are decreased. But the other things–

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That Evan and I still wanna touch upon are the lectins, are the phytates and the oxalates, the mineral disruptors, the protein disruptors, and the high amount of pesticide and Roundup that are on some of these products. So you can at least reduce it by going organic and by going the sourdough method so it’s at least fermented and soaked, so the grains are gonna be more palatable and not have the mineral and enzyme disruptors. But again, better, right? Good, better, best. Best is gonna be at least keeping the grains out. Good or better part is gonna be in between, going like a rice protein and then like, you know, good would be doing the fermented sourdough bread option like I just mentioned.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, and put it this way, it helps me sometimes to understand kind of the ancestral or the planetary perspective on this. These plants and these grains, they don’t want to get eaten–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, yeah.

Evan Brand:  And digested, right? I mean, they want to pass seed on through an animal and then it come out fully digest—or un—you know, undigested, fully undigested, so that that seed can go back into the ground and grow more grass or grain. I mean, that’s the goal with birds and humans, too, if it goes through and it’s not getting digested, the goal is for that seed to be intact enough to grow more plants, and they don’t wanna get eaten.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  So that—that’s enough reason there that—that makes sense and really help me. But like, “Oh, man. Wow. Okay.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And it’s pretty simple, right? You know, from evolution standpoints our role, I mean, it sounds crude is just to be able to pass on our—our seed to our offspring, right? That’s pretty much it. You know, be able to survive enough so you can procreate and pass on your DNA to your offspring. That’s pretty much it. Now there’s two ways of doing it. There’s having claws and weapons and tools and teeth, so you can prevent getting attacked on or preyed on, right? That’s like the wolf or the fox, or maybe us with our weapons as humans. And then there’s the, “Okay, I’m gonna get eaten, right?” Berries, grains, but there’s gonna be seeds and things that are gonna keep the seed and the DNA intact, so eventually maybe it will go back and be able to grow again and pass on its offspring so it can live again, right? So there’s two methods. It’s either you’re gonna fight now or you’re gonna basically submit but live the fight another day by passing itself back into the soil again so it can grow.

Evan Brand:  Yup, yup. Should we move on to body system two?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and then last piece that is the foundation with the diet, I’d say is also the emotions. So if there’s a lot of emotional stress, like there’s an active serious relationship issue. You know, not just like hey, you know, you had a fight here or there but you have active relationship problems. Maybe there’s an active divorce issue. Maybe you’re real problem with the child or a family member or maybe a death of a loved one or serious work stress, or stress at your church or where you go to—to have a spiritual connection, or you excessively exercise a ton, right? Those kind of things need to be looked at because they can provide a lot of stress underlying. So we wanna make sure there’s not an active emotional issue because it affects the timeline in which we expect healing to occur. If you’re actively going through a divorce or you’re having serious work issues, we may say hey, our goal is gonna be just to dig out feet in and prevent us from sliding downhill, and we may not be able to gain a whole bunch of ground going uphill.

Evan Brand:  Well said, yeah, and I’ll also mention the electromagnetic fields which I’ve done–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Oh, yes.

Evan Brand:  Countless podcasts on. I had a lady the other day. She heard a podcast about EMF that—that was on the show and she bought a meter online and anything above 1 milligauss, a measure of magnetic field is bad, right? And this lady had 50 milligauss in her bedroom. And so she lives in San Francisco. She didn’t believe it. She called the power company as I told her to do and they came out and they measured, and sure enough, it was about 25 or 30 milligauss. So her meter was pretty inaccurate, but it was accurate enough to detect a problem that warranted further investigation. And even the power company was like, “Well, this is insanely high.” I mean, you’ll see some people that say anything above 3 milligauss of magnetic fields which comes from power lines is—is bad, but either way, 20, 50, that’s insane and so she’s moving immediately and she said she hadn’t slept well for months and kinda like my story that you and I chatted about when I had to move. I was measuring 7 milligauss in my office and I feel like I didn’t sleep. So I mean, that’s another cause of adrenal hormone issues that you and I are discussing and talking about with people because it’s—it’s an invisible smoke, right? If you had glasses that you could wear and see this stuff, everybody would freak out. But it’s invisible. And like my friend Eric Windheim says, “It’s like fighting a ghost.” So you have to measure this stuff and—and mitigate it, and there’s more. We won’t go into more detail today, but just check out EMF in the search bar on the website, and you’ll be able to find, you know, more episodes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. So we addressed the foundational pieces, diet, lifestyle, emotional stress, meal timing, nutrient density–

Evan Brand:  Environmental.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Toxins from the chemical. Toxins are essentially—the electromagnetic toxins, right? That’s kinda in that toxin realm.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We hit that. We talked about the hormones, ATM, ATF. And then next step is gut function/gut infections. Now typically when we start out with the diet piece, depending on what’s happening symptomatically, if we see a lot of reflux, a lot of bloating, let’s say we have a history of vertical ridging in the nails or we see a lot of undigested food particulate or the stool looks grayer or the stool floats or we have poor hair quality or very dry skin, these are all symptoms that we’re not digesting our food optimally. So to support the diet piece, we may bring some of the digestive support up forward, and bring it into intro phase. What I mean is we may bring in some of the hydrochloric acid, some of the enzymes, some of the bitters, some of the digestive support to help stimulate digestion because we see that as supporting the intro phase. We’re working on digesting foods and making sure that piece is dialed in. So that may have to be brought up forward because it’s—it supports the foundation. That’s number one. Number two is we have to knock out the infections. So as we look at body system two, we really break it down into 5 steps. So number one is remove the bad foods. Number two is replace the enzymes and acids like I mentioned. So that’s the digestive support to make the intro diet piece work better. Number three is repair and repair means repairing the adrenals because we have to make sure that piece is there. because we don’t wanna work on really healing the gut, until we have the hormonal environment dialed in to help reduce inflammation and help heal the gut lining and help improve IgA levels, which is the localized immune system in the digestive tract. We also wanna make sure healing nutrients are present for people that have extra gut inflammation or extra gut irritation. Things like L-glutamine and the healing nutrients, the licorice root, deglycerized licorice root, maybe slippery elm, maybe cat’s claw, maybe some gentle amino acids like L-glutamine, and Jerusalem artichoke, etc. These are healing nutrients that help that gut lining. Number four is the removing of the infections and we’re able to remove the infections most adequately because of the 3 phases before it. Because of the removing the foods, the replacing the enzymes and acids, the repair in the gut lining and the adrenals, now we can come in and we can start working on removing the infections, and the infections are gonna be specific to the stool test we recommend to pick up the infection. So the H. pylori comes back or fungus comes back or various multiple parasites come back, those all need to be specifically addressed with unique protocols for each. And then number five is going to be the re-inoculation with robotics, really receding all of the good seeds after the weeding’s been done. And then number six is gonna be the retesting to make sure one, infections are cleared and two, there are no new infections as last podcast talked about, making sure there are no resistant infections that were burrowed in deeper that are showing their ugly head, and the only exception will be adding probiotics in the repair phase. Because sometimes probiotics can have an anti-inflammatory effect, and depending on how bad the gut is, we may add some probiotics in the ref—the repair phase as well as the reinoculation phase to help support gut healing and inflammation.

Evan Brand:  Well said. I wanna speak just for a minute and see if you wanna add anything to it about the topic of antibiotic use and infections. There’s a lot of hate on the Internet about herbal remedies for infections, you know, whether it’s an M.D. or a naturopath or someone. You know, getting in an argument about saying, “Oh, herbs don’t work. You have to use triple therapy or this antibiotic or this antifungal prescription.” And there’s very, very, very, very few cases where it takes us more than one or two rounds to get rid of an infection using just herbs, no prescription. So could you add something to that conversation, too? I would 95% of patients can address their gut function and their got infections with herbs alone. 5% of the time we may have resistant bugs that we’ve treated, re-test, still there. Treated, retest, still there. Treated, retest, still there. And it’s 2-3 times and we’re not able to knock it out. But I’ve had people go and on the third time, we knock it out. So the antibiotics may be an option for some people. The conventional antibiotics that are typically run like the metronidazole, the Flagyl, which are the most commonly prescribed ones for these infections tend to miss the infection about two-thirds of the time. And then a lot of times the antibiotics prescribed for your typical triple therapy for H. pylori like clarithromycin, amoxicillin, and/or omeprazole like Prilosec, acid-blocking medications, tend to do the same kind of thing. They’ll miss the infections a third half the time.

Evan Brand:  Well, what about this, too? What about creating more resistant strains due to the antibiotics that have been so overused? Which then makes our job a little bit tougher because people have gone through rounds and rounds of this crap and it’s done nothing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. That’s the problem is you run the risk of having these antibiotics not work in the time where maybe you really need them, like you get in a car accident or you step on a—a rusty nail or some, some kind of infection that’s more acute and more severe based on the exposure of the microbes. So I’m always about conservative to invasive, right? What’s the most conservative type of care off the bat? It’s always gonna be diet. It’s always gonna be lifestyle. It’s always gonna be using antimicrobial herbal medicines that have been around for literally thousands of years to have a strong safety profile, to have the ability to use them long-term without resistance–

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And also aren’t gonna wipe out a—as many other microbes, any other beneficial microbes the may be present that are helpful for your gut. We won’t wipe those out and create more problems. I can’t tell you how many patients I’ve seen that have been on antibiotics and had devastating side effects, and now we’re treating them from the damage caused by the antibiotics in the beginning. I’ve seen it so many times. Don’t see it with herbs though.

Evan Brand:  I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But I see all the time with antibiotics so I’m always very conservative and we go up in—in gradations on what step one is. Herbs. Step two. Herbs. Step three. Maybe herbs. And then if we’re still having issues, then we go and we lean towards the antibiotics, typically on step three most of the time.

Evan Brand:  Yup, yup. Well said. And just the fact that this has been used, the herbs that we’re talking about. They’re been used for thousands of years before antibiotics were invented. To me that says something about the success rate and the safety. So when people read concerns about herbs. A lot of times the concerns are unwarranted unless you’re talking about mixing herbs with pharmaceuticals, like you know, 5HTP and SSRIs and stuff like that. Yeah, you can get into trouble. But generally, there’s really nothing to be concerned about compared to the tens and if not hundreds of thousands of people dying due to medical error. That’s now the third leading cause of death. Did you know that? Medical error.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Evan Brand:  So—so this—this is real. This isn’t something were just saying on our—on our high horse. You know, this is for real. Look at CDC death or medical top causes of death. You’ll see medical error and this is from the proper, you know, or this is the prescribed rather is what I meant to say, the prescribed dose of a medication is still causing third leading cause of death, is medical error.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I know. I know Barbara Starfield has her prized article in the Journal of the American Medical Association 2000, all on how much medications and surgical procedures done correctly, right? Hey, the surgery was a success but the patient died. Hey, the prescription was—was perfect according to what the patient’s symptomatology was, but the patient had an ulcer and died, right? Just like that happens with ibuprofen 19,000 times a year according to the New England Journal of Medicine. So we know there’s a risk with conventional treatments. So we wanna be as conservative as possible, so we don’t have to go to those type of higher risk procedures.

Evan Brand:  Agreed, agreed. Well said. So yeah, the infections are huge. I mean, Justin and I, we have more podcasts on that talking about our own history with infections. So not only are we in the trenches helping others remove them, but we’re doing it on ourselves, too. So this is—this is a huge piece and has been instrumental for me to get my—my weight back when I’ve lost, you know, 20 pounds of muscle from infections. So this is a real big deal in something that has to be addressed.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Correct, and I think the key thing, too, is we’re not anti-medication.

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We’re all about using the correct tool at the right time, but also weighing the pros and cons. Like if we’re, you know, we got our tool bag on or our toolbelt on, right? And we have all these different tools in our tool bag, alright? And we look at this screw and it’s the flathead groove in it, so we know I gotta pull my Phillips head out, right? I’m not gonna look at that screw and be like, “Screw this, my dog must not gonna allow me to use this flathead, throw it away and then try to pull it—the Phillips in there and try to work it.” So let’s say it’s a—a flathead groove, I’m not gonna look at flathead screwdriver and throw it away, and say, “I’m gonna try using a Phillips, right?” I’m gonna go and say, “Well, this is the right tool for it. So I’m gonna put it in and I’m gonna use the correct tool based on what’s presenting itself.” That’s like if you get in a car accident, we’re not gonna look at the patient and say, “Great! Let’s just throw you on some turmeric right now and call it a day.”

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  No. We’re gonna say, “Go to the ER. Get the correct test to make sure there are no fractures, no bleeds, no hemorrhaging.” You may even want to be on some higher dose pain meds. You may want to avoid the opiate ones, right? Because of the addiction, but maybe some higher those pain meds acutely just because you’re in severe trauma and pain. And then we’ll get you stabilized and then we’ll get you on a really good routine after. So we look at the right routine. If we see that flathead groove, we’re reaching for the flathead screwdriver. We’re not reaching for the Phillips.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, absolutely. And if you break your arm, yeah, you don’t go take a dose of turmeric and fish oil. I mean, you need to get that checked out and make sure there’s no internal bleeding, etc., etc. So there’s no trophy for—for trying to be a hero and dismissing the acute, incredible trauma medicine that—that is offered. You know, it’s just the things we’re dealing with, their 1, 5, 10, 20, 30-year chronic issues and that’s where functional medicine tends to have far superior success rates. You know, 90+ percent success rates that you and I both have.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, and some of the things that are talked about regarding antibiotics, and I’ll put some of the research in the show notes, but antibiotics can create oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunction. That’s a big issue, so the mitochondria is gonna be the powerhouse of the cell which is gonna help generate ATP which is like the fuel currency for energy, and also creates oxidative stress which is just a way of breaking down your body, right? Oxidation, you leave a rusty nail in the rain, it gets all rust or you leave a nail out in the rain, it gets rusty because of that oxidation process. We have internal rusting. Doesn’t quite show itself like that, a brownish rust, but it happens—it happens internally and that creates a depletion of a lot of your antioxidant reserves. So your body has to use up more vitamin C, use up more vitamin E, use up more nutrients that would typically be used for other healthy functions. So oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunction are a side effect of some of these antibiotics use. So we really want to make sure if we’re using them—excuse my frog on my throat—we wanna make sure they are used appropriately for the right situation.

Evan Brand:  Well said. Yeah, and I’ll briefly mention, typically for body system two, we’re gonna be looking at comprehensive stool testing. We’ve discussed that. So whether PCR-based testing or otherwise, and then also the organic acids testing. So you hear us talking, maybe it sounds fancy, mitochondrial issues, amino acid metabolite problems, etc. but we can see and I see it all the time. Vitamin C levels, very, very, very low across the board most time on organic acids which is a urine test that you do at home and then you send that back to the lab and then we go over the results and then stool testing, you’re gonna be able to find infections. You’re gonna go through the protocol and then you’re gonna retest and the infections are gonna be gone. So that’s—that’s it for body system two. Let’s go on to body system three, Justin. So detox, methylation, making sure that people are able to actually do things at the end of the line. Once everything has happened, once a good digestion has happened, you’ve absorbed your minerals, your colon’s helping to produce vitamins for energy, your probiotics are doing the things they should be doing, now it’s time to get the stuff out of the body. We’re hoping the liver is gonna be able to do what it can do. We’re hoping you’re pooping, right? I mean, people buy all these fancy detox powders and teas, but it’s like if you’re not pooping but once a week, that’s a huge issue. That’s a great way to detox, poop and pee. How simple and revolutionary is that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%. Poop, pee, breathing, and sweating. It’s like un—unreal. So looking at a lot of the detox things, certain nutrients are required to detox. So you can see why number three, why detox is put number three. Let’s just break that down so everyone can get the—understand the concept. Again in this show, we’re really committed to being able to teach concepts because if you get the concept, there’s zero memorization involved in it. Once you get the concept, it’s like riding a bike. You get back on—Boom! You never have to go to that learning curve of falling. So what’s the concept? So number one, if we’re poor foods and eating toxic foods, and foods that are nutritionally poor, what happens to detox? Automatically impaired.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right? So why are we gonna work on detox off the bat? Because if we just get that first phase done, we’re starting to work on detox even though we’re not working on it directly, because it’s body system three, we already worked on it in the intro phase. Number one. Number two, we actually start breaking down the foods. That means we start breaking down the proteins into their smaller amino acid constituents and we know how important the sulfur based amino acids for operating phase 2 detoxification. Phase 2 is like the n-acetylation, hydroxylation, the glutathione production, the methylation, and we need methionine and we need cysteine and glutamine and glycine and taurine, and all these really important sulfur aminos, and if we can’t break down our protein constituents into those smaller products, you know? Ripping off the pearl necklace and pulling off the individual pearls, that’s what it’s akin to. If we can’t do that, we’re not gonna be able to run phase 2 and then frankly we need lots of antioxidants and B vitamins to run phase 1. So if we have SIBO or dysbiosis, well, our probiotic production internally from our gut bacteria is automatically forwarded or downregulated because we know good bacteria in our gut produces a lot of those nutrients for us, right? Good bacteria eats poop and poops nutrition, B vitamins, antioxidants, nutrients. Bad bacteria eats nutrition and poops poop. Bad bacteria makes you more toxic. So what is the more toxicity from the bad bacteria due to body system three? It decreases its function. So you can see how we lead up to diet and lifestyle. We lead up to digesting food. We lead up to healthy gut bacteria, knocking out infection, addressing the flora, because all of that sets the stage for body system three, so we can come in there and really support the nutrients that are missing, the pathways that aren’t working properly, and we can potentially even knockout specific heavy metals if we see heavy metals are in there with other types of chelators and compounds that pull the metals out. And some of the test we do—well, I’ll take a breath there, Evan. Any comments?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I mean, well said. I wanted to mention this comes at the end because we want to make sure that everything else has been addressed upstream. I mean we’re not going to go straight to detox if we know that you have infections and we know that you’re still getting, let’s say artificial sweeteners in your diet which can be placing a burden on the liver, right? So we want to see the liver and your detoxification abilities, methylation, this includes anybody with like MTHFR genetic defects. This includes you, too. All that other stuff’s gotta be taken care of first because we want to see what the actual baseline is. Not the baseline when you are doing so much sugar and alcohol and bad fats and artificial sweeteners and all of that that’s got the burden on the liver. So once we get all that stuff out of the way, then we take a look at body system three. It’s the, “Oh, okay, so this is the true baseline,” and then yeah we can look for heavy metals, from dental fillings, amalgams, you know, bad food, bad water, too much tuna fish, other environmental exposures, and then we can start helping to get the detox system working better because if you’re not pooping well and you have an overburdened liver, you’re just gonna be recirculating all these toxins. So then you’re gonna get the joint pain and the allergies and the asthma, and the skin problems, the headaches, the brain fog, alcohol intolerance, I mean, we could go on and on but you gotta get all that other stuff taken care first, so if you go straight to detox or somebody tries to sell you on some detox protocol first when you don’t even know if you have leaky gut or not, I would be cautious and maybe you have more to say about that, but I don’t like the idea of pushing stuff out of people’s body if they don’t even have enough trash men to come gather all of the trash at the end of the road.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, 100%. So we have everything lead up to it and I think you emphasized the whole leaky gut part right because the leaky gut as you mentioned is really the consequence of all of the inflammation, the inability to break down food, the compromised immune system, and then the infections. All of that will lead to leaky gut. So leaky gut isn’t necessarily a result. It’s more of an effect of all of the inflammation and the damage.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right? The gluten, the bad foods, all of the inflammation. So that’s kind of the end product that you get there is leaky gut. So looking at everything that you mentioned. How do we quantify it? Because you put some really good points out there. How do we actually know what’s going on from the detoxification side? Well, we’ll look at an organic acid test. Typically as a good starting point because we’ll get a window into various detoxification pathways, whether it’s pyroglutamate or other types of organic acids, sulfate—these are organic acids that will give us a window into how those sulfur aminos are doing. If the demand for them is higher or if they’re depleted. And we’ll also get a window into B vitamin status. We’ll get a window into methylation and we’ll also get a window into oxidative stress by looking at the 8-hydroxy 2-deoxyguanosine for instance. Again, these are all like jeopardy words but these are organic acids that give us a window into all these systems, whether it’s simply xanthorrhoea for B6, whether it’s the amino acids for the brain with vanilmandelate or homovanilate or 5-hydroxyindoleacetate or whether it’s markers for gut bacteria like hippurate or benzoate. So these—these markers give us a big window into what’s happening and the organics can really help tell us what’s happening there from some of those detox nutrients, and we may even look at like a SpectraCell or a NutrEval as well. Again, I lean more towards the organics because that’s my baby.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The NutrEval combines the organics with another blood test for nutrients, too. So that’s a—another side option which at least does contain the organics and that gives us a good window into what’s happening but we always go back to intro, body system one, hormones, ATF, ATM; body system two, the ability to digest, removing food allergens, healing the leaky gut, repairing the gut lining, removing infections, adding in probiotics, and retesting because we gotta make sure new infections aren’t there and the old ones are gone. Number—body system three is gonna be detox nutrients and that’s typically where we follow suit, and we reserve the right to kinda move some things in. Like if I know someone has a ton of oxidative stress, I may throw some extra vitamin C that we may discover on an organics test, I may throw it in with the adrenal protocol. So we do things and we mix-and-match outside of that box a bit, so if any patients are listening, they may think, “Well, Dr. J gave me some detox support in body system one,” and that’s gonna be dependent upon how that person’s presenting, how sensitive they are, and how bad their detox is. We may add some small things in with body system one, because maybe the adrenal support is too much for their liver, and we need to give their liver just a little bit of support so they don’t have a lot of those hormone side effects.

Evan Brand:  Totally, well said. I’m gonna mention two things and then we can wrap it up.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cool.

Evan Brand:  One for me on the organics, which I just love is the quinolinic 5-HIAA ratio–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Looking at inflammation because you could go on and on and sound fancy, but when someone sees inflammation and you’re like, “Look, here it is.” It’s like, “Oh, crap.” Because inflammation, you know, even a conventional physician is gonna talk about inflammation as a cause of disease, right? And so when we can actually prove that to a client or a patient, it’s incredible and it’s very profound to be able to do that and then whether it’s 3, 4, 6 months later when the retest comes, and you can see that that number’s gone down, it’s very, very rewarding for both of us, and lastly, the toxin piece, too, something that Justin and I have been talking about a lot and—and I’m running on—I’m running this test on nearly everyone I possibly can–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  Including myself is the GPL-TOX so I can look at the toxic load because I bought a sauna based on my toxic load of insecticides, and this is not a challenge or a push test so even the sickest people, we don’t have to worry about doing any type of chelation which may push some stuff out. You just urinate in—in the morning in a cup and you send it off. And the cool thing is you can run it side-by-side with the organics, so it’s literally the same urine sample. All you have to do is spend a little bit extra investment to get both test run organics and GPL-TOX at the same time, and I had insecticide levels in my body that are known carcinogens that were higher than they should be. And so for me, this is a huge, huge, huge new realm of opening up this. Look, we know there’s detox problems. Let’s fix it, but what are we actually fixing. You know, that had always been the question, right? Ooh, there’s detox problems. Man, you got headaches. You got chemical sensitivity. You can’t handle perfumes, gas fumes. Look, here’s why. And oh, man, is there anything more fun in the world than this? I mean, I—I don’t think so.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I agree. I mean, it’s like we’re CSI detectives without all the—the murder and blood, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  We’re trying to put together the—the puzzle piece that’s really getting people’s quality of life back. So just summarizing those tests. We run the organics test. We run maybe the OAT, which is the—the Great Plains Lab organics. We run the GPL-TOX. We may run the NutrEval, the SpectraCell and then we have the heavy metal challenge test where we challenge, with a chelation compound, like DMPS or DMSA or EDTA to get a window into the toxic burden of metals because metals don’t want to stay in systemic circulation. They don’t wanna stay in the blood. They only go on the blood acutely in that first 24 to 48 hours, then they go into the tissue.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Whether it’s the brain or the individual tissues or even bones when it comes to lead. So we gotta get a window into it so we have to do a challenge, a provocation agent that can go in into the tissues and really kinda pull things out. It’s like, “Hey, you go outside. You look for bees. There may not bees swarming around, but if there’s a beehive there, well provocation agent’s throw rock into the beehive, right?” You know those bees are in that beehive when those—when that rock hits it and those bees come out, that’s the provocation agents. So we use that same kind of methodology with the heavy metal test. The rock is like the chelation compound that we use to see what’s coming out in the urine and a lot of times we see aluminum, we see arsenic, we see cadmium, and we see a whole bunch of mercury and lead, and it’s different for each person.

Evan Brand:  Yup, absolutely, and then you got blood metals, too. Quicksilver’s Blood Metals is cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand: There’s the Mercury Tri Test, too, for hair, blood, urine. There’s so many different things out there. A lot of them are good. A couple of them are bad, but you know, we’ll help you to make the distinction what is right for you and this is case-by-case. Some people they may not need to investigate metals. Other people they’ll come to us and they’ll say, “Evan or Justin, man, I got metal problems.” And they just have a gut feeling and in those cases, I say, “Okay, cool. Let’s get you checked out.“ It’s not gonna hurt. It can only help you to investigate. So if you have a gut feeling and that gut feeling can be disrupted obviously if you have got problems, right? Because the inflammation in the gut, you might be getting mixed signals, but if you have a gut feeling, ask us, and let us help you to investigative. If it’s something we didn’t bring up yet or maybe it’s early in the game and we wanted to do it later, just bring it up because you never know. You could be onto something that we just haven’t got to yet and that may save us, you know, a month or two of—of time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. And again, we’ll the show notes for everything, the full transcription, again in my new Thyroid Book that will be coming out very soon, just putting the finishing touches on it, we’re gonna have a chapter in the book all on this type of discussion, putting it all together because I feel like this is probably one of the key pieces that most functional medicine practitioners and doctors really, it—it’s very esoteric. It’s kind of in the ether. Like how does it all look?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Like what does the whole plan look like? And it just kinda like, you feel like almost like they’re making it up as they go and I think is really important if you’re gonna hou—you know, you’re gonna hike Mt. Everest so to speak, I wanna see that map. I want to know how we’re gonna go up there. I wanna know how we’re navigate that crevice and—and get across that—that ledge or that cliff. I wanna kinda feel like it makes sense when we get directions. So I think that’s a really important piece that we’re adding, is that clarity and that, you know, what’s our fu—future pacing vision? How are we getting to the top?

Evan Brand:  Yup, amen.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Anything you wanna add there, Evan?

Evan Brand:  I don’t think so. I think this was great and fun as always, real honor. If people want to schedule, go to justinhealth, J-U-S-T-I-N, Justinhealth.com to schedule with Justin. If you want to schedule with myself, go to notjustpaleo.com and like I said, we both block out a few hours, so you know, if there’s a spot available, you wanna grab it for the 15-minute free call. See if we’re a good fit, you know, discuss your options together. Justin and I are happy to do that and we look forward to helping you all out. You know, listening to this is one thing. Getting in the trenches with us is another, and I mean without functional medicine, I would likely still be dealing with depression and irritable bowel syndrome and skin issues and fatigue and insomnia and adrenal problems. I mean, every aspect, everything that could’ve gone wrong was wrong in my body systems and just one by one, plucking these things off the list, and there’s never a finish line, right? I mean it’s always a continual journey. So you’re just always pushing to the next step ahead and this is your time. You know, you don’t have to suffer.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. I appreciate the hope and the inspiration, Evan.

Evan Brand:  Yes, sir.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Great chat. Great chat. Look forward to chatting with you very soon.

Evan Brand:  You, too. Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Have an awesome day!

Evan Brand:  You, too. Bye.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bye.

Addressing reoccurring gut infections – Podcast #115

Dr. Justin Marchegiani and Evan Brand talk all about gut testing today. Find out about the protocols they’ve done and what additional tests and new recommendations they have in battling gut issues when you listen to this podcast.

bauchschmerzenLearn how it is quite normal for a new infection to pop up after having been treated with an initial infection. Discover what steps you can take to effectively treat these parasites and other digestive issues. Find out what different parasites can cause infections and how you can get tested for them.

In this episode, topics include:

02:47 Evan’s testing and symptoms

09:19 Next steps and recommendations

14:39 Additional testing and treating new infections

19:30 Dr. Justin’s lab tests

25:40 Conventional vs functional medicine treatment

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Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Evan Brand, it’s Dr. J, man! How are things going?

Evan Brand:  Hey, things are good! Winters coming, unfortunately it’s rainy and cold here today. What about—how you doing?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, it’s actually about 75 and sunny and really nice today. So it couldn’t be better.

Evan Brand:  I—I do miss the weather. I do miss the Austin weather.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, It is, in general, it is quite good especially this time of year. I was actually last weekend waterskiing just before Thanksgiving and it was perfect. I mean, the temperature of the water was great. I didn’t even have to pull out my wet suit yet.

Evan Brand:  Wow, that’s—that’s awesome. I miss the weather and the food.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, absolutely. And it’s been a while since we chatted a bit. I’m, you know, I need my Evan Brand daily dose here.

Evan Brand:  Hey, man. I agree. It’s a pleasure talking with you as always.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely. I know you been doing the Adrenal Summit with Dr. Christiansen, which is great. How did the Summit go?

Evan Brand:  Oh, man. It went good. I think we ended up with like 60 or 70,000 people registered so it was much bigger than Alan and I anticipated. I don’t know why or how it became so much more successful but put it this way, I’ve spent many hours on the phone with HostGator trying to upgrade the hosting. We ended up having to get a dedicated server because they said, “Oh, yeah. With this upgrade should handle your traffic,” and then we upgraded again and still crashed it. So we ended up having to get an insanely expensive server just to handle the traffic. So that’s a good problem to have. I’ve—I’ve not had that much success with something to continually crash and crash and crash websites so that’s cool.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely, that’s a definitely what we call a better quality problem for sure and if anyone’s listening and wants to get access to the Summit, what’s the best way for them to do so.

Evan Brand:  They could just check out adrenalresetsummit.com and they can check it out. There’s 34 speakers including yours which I think was definitely top three talks for sure. Your talk on conventional versus functional treatment of adrenal issues. They can get your talk, the transcripts, all that stuff if they get the—the full package.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s awesome. Very, very cool. Well, today we talked about gut testing. I know we reported on a podcast we did back I think early in the spring where we reviewed some of your lab tests and then we talked about reviewing some of mine. So today we’re going to review some of my older podcast or my older labs that we did on an earlier podcast, as well as some of yours and some of the retest, and basically the moral the story on this—on this podcast will be recurrent gut infections. Great! You’ve gone through a second, a third round, what do you do? What’s the next up? And typically, other things that happen like what if a new infection comes up that wasn’t present the first time, which happened in your case that I’m really excited to go over.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, absolutely. So where should we start? Should we start at my first symptoms when you saw me and you like—you said, “Evan, man, that looks like you got an infection.” Where should we start the journey?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think there will be a good place and then also reviewing the labs that we did back in the spring, kinda reviewing the results of those and then sliding up to present day with you and present day with myself.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I wanna hear about yours, too. So with my—with myself, you know, it took me a while maybe 3-4 months before actually got the test run, wife was busy, we were moving, you said, “Evan, get checked out.” That was like right when I was moving, you know, to—back to Kentucky.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  So I the test done. I got the 401H run and that’s where we found the abundant growth of E. coli, that’s where we found the Cryptosporidium, the Giardia. Both of those are bad parasites. You do not want those and so–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100%.

Evan Brand:  That’s when—that’s when you and I talked and crafted a protocol together about what we should do to get rid of these things and then it took me from March until August to get the retest of the same lab. The Crypto and Giardia gone. Great. Did not show up with parasites.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nice.

Evan Brand:  Something that was detected that wasn’t detected before is H. Pylori. So as of August, the H. pylori showed up and then you and I chatted again about, well, what should we do now? What’s next steps for gut—got gut protocols for H. pylori. So I’m finishing up H. pylori protocol. I plan to retest probably January-February. I’ll do a retest and see—see what’s going on. See if the H. pylori’s gone. Symptoms, skin has improved massively. I’ve showed you and you’re like, “Wow.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I could see it in your videos. You—you’ve better skin tone, a little clearer and less—less redness or irritation. So I can definitely see a huge improvement on your skin.

Evan Brand:  I—I didn’t realize how inflamed my face was and having breakouts.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm., Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand:  So I didn’t realize how profound it was until it’s gone. It’s almost like these infections have played dingdong ditch on my skin for so long that I didn’t remember what clear good skin should feel and look like. So that—that’s a massive improvement. Energy levels have gotten better. Sleep is way better. I was waking up in the middle of the night all the time.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  When I had those parasites especially around full moons. Now I’m getting some of the best sleep. Also adding the fact that I moved away so—from those high electromagnetic fields, now I’m sleeping better than I have since I was probably 8-9 years old.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Wow.

Evan Brand:  Like I feel like I’m sleeping like a little baby, like a kid again, and it’s remarkable.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Love it. So in general just kinda going back and letting the listeners know a little bit more about your history in case they’re coming into a this a little bit late. You did have a history a while back with IBS, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, that’s what started this whole journey back 2008-2009–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah.

Evan Brand:  When I was in college. I mean, the first thing I had to do when I went into a building was figure out where the bathroom was because–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yeah.

Evan Brand:  I may have to run to the bathroom and that was a—a life, in a lifestyle strategy that I assumed, maybe some people dealt with but it just became normal, right? I mean, I didn’t think anything of it. I knew it sucked. I knew it wasn’t fun but I didn’t know there was a way out. And I went to the conventional docs, they prescribed three drugs which I did not fill any of the prescriptions, acid blocker, anti-spasmodic and some other type of drug, did not take any of those. Removing gluten basically cured 80% of the issue.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  But 20% of the issue remain where I had this cyclical issue with my gut where every month or every couple months, you know, symptoms would pop up. Maybe get some loose stool and then things would go back to normal. And you think, “Oh, maybe it was just something I ate, maybe I got gluten somewhere, but no it was these infections.”

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly and the big thing, too, some of the symptoms that you experience after you cut the gluten out even though you had these infections, you had a big improvement with some of the IBS symptoms—bloating, diarrhea, constipation, those kind of things. But you still had other symptoms, right? You are very blood sugar sensitive. You had the cold hands and cold feet, and sometimes you’d have some like some panic attacks, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Anxiety, heightened anxiety.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I remember—I remember calling you when I was still in Austin. We were going to move and I said, “Dude, I cannot slow my heart down. My—my heart is beating out of my chest. This is abnormal.” Now granted there was a huge amount of lifestyle stress. I think we were moving–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Right.

Evan Brand:  Driving cross-country in two days. I mean, there was huge–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Huge.

Evan Brand:  Impending stress, but I was still adrenally fatigued where I was not able to handle it. And my adrenals showed low which I’m going to say is due to some of the malnutrition cause from the digestive issues. My fingernails had the vertical lines. The weight loss like I told you and you saw me when I moved to Austin, I was about 160 pounds and I was down to like high 130s or 140. I lost 20 pounds in a year without trying which some peeps, “Oh, Even, I want that problem.” No, you don’t. No, you don’t.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah. It’s definitely not a good type of weight loss, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, exactly. So weight has stabilized. I’m actually approaching 150 pounds. So I’ve gained back—what is that? About 12—mmm, give or take 5, 5 to 12 pounds, just depending on what my official starting point was when the weight loss stopped.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And very little diet changes because you were really on point. I think the only thing we tweaked in your diet is pulling out a little bit more dairy.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, unfortunately I had to get rid of the—the organic raw, grass-fed cheeses that I love. The—they’re gone. So now I just do a little bit of butter, some ghee.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And you did a lot better. I remember seeing your skin really improved when we pulled out the—the dairy, that last piece there.

Evan Brand:  Yeah. Yup, absolutely, man.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And then tell me about that the—the cold hands and cold feet. How’s that improved since we knocked out the Crypto and the Blasto—or no, Crypto and Giardia?

Evan Brand:  Cold hands, cold feet still there like I told you. I—I’m wearing these elk moccasins with sheep skin in them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Any change at all? Any change at all? 5, 10, 15%?

Evan Brand:  I—I say nothing.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Evan Brand:  I think—I think no change at all.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But the bigger change you’d say would be more of the mood stuff, the anxiety, those kind of things?

Evan Brand:  Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay.

Evan Brand:  I mean mood’s much better. Brain fog, you know, if we looked at—

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Brain fog, yup.

Evan Brand:  If we looked at the 02, you know, we had high candida markers on there.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  The fungus. Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, so the yeast problem was also causing bloating which was unusual for me. I’d never have bloating before. And when you see—we see people joke about, “Oh, I feel pregnant.” No, for real like you can have massive yeast problems that can be—that can be successfully treated. So the—so the yeast gone. I have no bloating issues anymore, but the cold hands, cold feet, we gotta figure that one out. So if you help me figure that one out, I’m gonna be eternally grateful.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, and it could be some type of inflamed—inflammatory type of thing that’s affecting your thyroid or your adrenals. We’d have to look at your adrenals again. That’d probably be the next step and we got some—some potential test coming up soon. Go ahead.

Evan Brand:  Thyroid—thyroid looked good. I remember we talked about that. We looked at antibodies, looked at thyroid levels. I’d have to look back again but it checked out okay. There was no—no Hashimoto’s, nothing that looked really out of whack. So maybe we’ll have to see once this new adrenal test that I told you about the other day, once we get that run on ourselves we’ll have to see what’s—what’s changed. Maybe there’s still some lingering adrenal issues. I would say so, because any type of days where I’m really pushing it, you know, 12-16 hour days, I feel it. I’m like, “Oh, that was too much, too hard.” So I think there’s still some adrenal recovery going on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And one thing we miss though during your last lab test. I have your lab test up here now. Do I have permission to—to go over it?

Evan Brand:  Sure.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Okay, cool. Your TSH came back really good, 1.290.  Your T3 actually looked pretty good, 3.5. One thing I noticed though is your T4 Free was very high, 1.82. That’s off the charts. So I would be curious to see what you’re reverse T3 levels are like. I would not be–

Evan Brand:  I don’t think it was on the panel.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Nope.

Evan Brand:  Was it?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  No, it was not.

Evan Brand:  Darn it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I would not be surprised if your reverse T3 levels were very high because I’m seeing a very high amount of T4 and then a good amount T3. So there’s a—a spillage with that T4 to T3 conversion. So I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw an increase in reverse T3, which you know, are the metabolic blanks that fill up the—the space for the bullets and the clip, right?

Evan Brand:  So, wouldn’t this be pointing us back to the adrenals again?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand:  As a major factor?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, one thing that I think we’ll have to do next–yeah, one thing I think we’ll do next is we could talk about looking at the new Biohealth Adrenal Test that’ll be coming out soon which I’m really excited about that we talked about last week.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  As well as comparing it to the Dutch. I love to see looking at both of those side-by-side what kind of Intel we get and I wouldn’t be surprised over time once we get you fully infection-free because that H. pylori, like we said, is still there. So that’s probably affecting stomach acid and enzyme levels and mineral absorption.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So we gotta make sure you’re on hydrochloric acid. How’s that going with you?

Evan Brand:  Oh, I take enzymes like Skittles, so I love them.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  How about hydrochloric acid thought?

Evan Brand:  Yeah, HCl, I’m getting about 600, 4 to 600 mg–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Per meal?

Evan Brand:  With each meal. Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I would say taper it up to 3000 mg per meal, so about five capsules of HCl combined. In Dr. Jonathan Wright’s book about, you know, why you need stomach acid. He finds people may need, clinically up from 1000 up to 5000 mg of betaine. So I kind of go somewhere in the middle because I don’t want you to get a peptic ulcer.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I know.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So I would—I would try inching up to 4 to 5 capsules slowly in the middle of the meal and just make sure you’re not getting any warmness or irritation.

Evan Brand:  So you’re thinking about of a—a gram on the low end then?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  On the low end, you should be starting there and then working your way up. I’ll go up to at least 3 g.

Evan Brand:  Mmkay. So-

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  300 mg, 3 g.

Evan Brand:  So what—what I’ve been using, I’ve been experimenting with the pure—I’ll—I’ll send you—I’ll send it to you about the Pure Encapsulations one where they have— I wanna say there’s 250 HCl in each capsule, and then plus—plus all the enzymes.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So what I do with patient like yourself–

Evan Brand:  So would you say add–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm., go ahead.

Evan Brand:  I was gonna say, so with these extra enzymes I’m not sure if I really need X amount of protease x 5, so I wonder–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bingo! Yup.

Evan Brand:  H—HCl by itself.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Bingo! You’re leading me.

Evan Brand:  Then would be the solution.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly. So when I’m dealing with patients, typically anyone that has a gut-related issue where we see digestive-related issues or digestive-related gut infections, depending on how bad their gut is, we’ll either separate the enzymes from the HCl just so we can get the pill count more reasonable for the HCl because a lot of the combo ones are about 200 mg. So you need about three times more pills to get the same HCl amount and that becomes a little, you know, convoluted when you’re taking 15 or 16 capsules per meal.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So would like the HCl like in my line, it’s HCl Supreme at anywhere between 1 to 5 capsules which that’ll—the 5 will get you about 3 g or 3000 mg on the high-end and then play with the enzymes been 1 and 3, 1 and 2 will probably be fine with the enzymes per meal.

Evan Brand:  Mmkay. I’m gonna do it. Let’s see what happens.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when I say play with it, what I mean is with the HCl you have a palpable effet, right? You get the irritation or the—the warmness, right? Those—that kind of feeling with the HCl. Take in the middle the meal. With the enzymes, it’s hard to say. So get the HCl dose gonna fine-tuned first and then once you have the HCl dose, just taper up the enzymes and see if you notice an improvement with how you feel. Like it may just be lighter after a meal, better bowel movements. You just feel like there’s less bloating or less digestive issues, better regularity, start with one. See how you do and then go up to 2, and see if you notice an improvement with any of those symptoms I just mentioned. If you notice an improvement, keep it at the higher dose. If you don’t notice an improvement, you can just keep at the one capsule per meal kinda standard dose.

Evan Brand:  So how do you feel about upping the pepsin, because I’m—we’re gonna be upping in pepsin closer to a gram there for it, you know, 3 g of betaine, we may be at a gram of pepsin. How do you feel about that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  It’s fine. No problem with that.

Evan Brand:  That’s good. Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup, no problem with that. So looking at your test I would just say the thyroid, I’d like to redo it with the reverse T3 and then follow up with those 2 adrenal tests just because it’d be really great to biohack that and present it to the listeners.

Evan Brand:  I know. Were—were the antibodies on there? I couldn’t remember.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  They were and they came back good, 5 on the TPO which is great, you know, anything below the teens is fine, and then below the one on the thyroglobulin antibody which look good as well.

Evan Brand:  Cool, excellent.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, very cool. So recapping, right? You came back with Crypto-Giardia to start and some fungal issues, right? And then we retested and then we saw Crypto and Giardia gone–

Evan Brand:  H. pylori.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  But H. pylori popped up. So this is kind of irritating for a lot of people that have an infection. They get it treated. We see some results with those initial infections being knocked down but a new one pops up. And typically what happens is gut infections can kind of burrow in to the gut wall, so they go, you know, more superficial, right? More distal, the proximal in relation to the gut wall. So they—they burrow deeper in. So typically what happens is the gut lining heals from inside—or I should say from the outer layer to the inner, deeper gut—gut wall layer. So outer layer to deeper gut wall and if infections are penetrating deep into the crypts or into the gut lining or gut wall, then it may take time for them to show up on a stool test. So t typically we knock out those infections, they can hide in what’s called the crypts and we can get this crypt hyperplasia phenomenon where they dive deep into the crypts, so if you look at your hand where your fingers meet your palm, that little indentation, that little U spot, that’s like the crypts. So imagine the outer gut lining, right? The outer gut lining is like the fingertips and the inner gut wall is like the palm, and it can hide in where those fingers actually meet the palm and that’s like the analogy of the crypts in relation to your hand, so you can physically see it. So that’s kinda, as we go deeper in, and we go from like the first knuckle to the second knuckle to the actual palm part where the infections burrow deeper in in relation to your gut.

Evan Brand:  Yeah and we’ve discussed that on previous podcasts about healing from the inside out or the outside in, however, you—you want to say it but this is the proof right here. I mean, here these infections are they’re gone but then something else is still there. So basically what you’re saying is with this H. pylori, you’re saying that would’ve been a deeper infection, so maybe longer-lasting or you—you’re thinking maybe H. pylori, the Crypto-Giardia, but since we’re working from the outside in and we’re working deeper now that the H. pylori has now revealed itself. Is that right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I think it was always there and now because the immune system has been supported by just knocking out some of these infections, and the gut has kind of healed somewhat, so we’re kinda getting down into the deeper parts of the gut where some of these infections may have been buried deep. And H. pylori is known to burrow deeper into the gut lining, too, right? So scen—two scenarios, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Number one—actually three scenarios. Number one, the infection wasn’t there and it was a new—it was reinfection over the last 2 or 3 months during treatment. Scenario number two is the infection was missed by the lab or scenario number three, the crypt hyperplasia phenomenon and you know, sometimes it can be typically two or three. The lab may have missed it. That’s why a lot of times we run 2 tests with patients that we highly suspect of gut issues and as you talked about, I’m not sure if we mentioned it, but your GI Map that we ran side-by-side the 401 missed the H. pylori. So little bit different, but the 401 also is the H. pylori antigen where the GI Map was a DNA test for the H. pylori. So the antigen’s the gold standard, right? We have a higher level of false negatives than positives. So the fact that we got a positive on the test is a really good sign we know it’s there.

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So again, infections kind of burrow in to the gut lining deeper into the gut walls, so the gut’s gonna heal from the outside in and being deeper into the gut wall where those fingers meet your hands so to speak, and that’s what tends to happen we get these infections come into the surface. So with you, we have the H. pylori present but the Blasto—or the Crypto and the Giardia is clear. Is that correct?

Evan Brand:  That’s right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Excellent because the Giardia and the Crypto are much more virulent infections than H. pylori.

Evan Brand:  I know. I’m glad those were gone. I was thrilled. That was a great day.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And so we tweaked your protocol a little bit and we’re gonna check in and see where you’re at in the next month or two.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, we’ll see January, come round the time of my birthday or so. We’ll see what’s going and hopefully I’ll be sym—you know, infection-free for my birthday. That’d be a good goal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I agree. Anything else you wanna add to what we just chatted about?

Evan Brand:  I don’t think so. I’m excited to talk about yours.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, absolutely. So I did some lab tests, too. Okay and I’ve been doing lab tests for years on myself, so it’s always fun to see what new stuff comes back, plus some–

Evan Brand:  So where should we start—where should we start your journey. I wanna hear what you think is your starting point.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Well, I mean right now gut-wise, I’m pretty darn good, like no real symptoms with my gut unless I eat some bad food. So I try to, you know, for the most part be 80% Autoimmune Paleo, and with the exception of, you know, some nuts and here and there and a little bit of butter here and there, but outside of that I’m pretty–

Evan Brand:  Chocolate.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Pretty sure, yes, a little bit of dark chocolate. That’s kind of debatable but you know, high-quality 90% organic, you know, good dark chocolate. So that’s kinda where I live most of the time.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And typically I never cheat with gluten. If I cheat, I try to always make sure it’s a gluten-free cheat just because, you know, why not? I have options to do that and I know how good I feel being off that. So that’s where I’m at there.

Evan Brand:  I agree.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I have a previous history of Hashimoto’s, I mean slightly elevated antibodies, so I gotta be careful with gluten. So I’m really diligent to make sure that’s a priority to not get exposed to that kryptonite for me. That’s number one. Number two, I’ve done gut test and I’ve had relatively good success with being clear with infections. I came back I think in 2009 with the equivocal Giardia infection. I cleared that out. I had a lot of fungal stuff in the past. So I’ve really knocked out fungus, little bit of Giardia in the past. And my most recent lab test in the 401, I actually came back clean. I mean nothing. No growth, no bacterial issues, no, nothing. So I was really excited about that and then on the GI Map test, I did come back with a little bit of C. diff, a little bit of salmonella, a little bit enterococcus overgrowth, a little bit Morganella morganii, and then a little of Geotrichum fungus and–and some lower enzyme. So you know, I’ve upped my HCl, upped my enzymes, we’re knocking out some of the bacteria and that bacteria isn’t that bad. That’s kind of benign stuff, so we’re knocking that down right now, and then I also ran the DRG. So I ran the DRG, the GI Map, and the 401H, all at the same time, which is really cool. And on the DRG, I came back with a little bit elevations in fecal fat which we kinda suspect right because my enzymes were lower so we’re upping the enzymes, upping the HCl a bit, that’s—I’m confident it’s helping. E. histo came back slightly elevated. Come back—came back at 688 on the GI Map—I’m sorry, on the DRG. Anything 350 or higher is considered positive and–

Evan Brand:  So let—so say that one more time. So anything above 350 is a positive for the histolytica and you were what?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I was 688, so I was–

Evan Brand:  Ahh.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Almost twice the limit.

Evan Brand:  Tell people—tell people what that is, just so they don’t like glaze over and glaze over and go like, “Whoa! Histolytica, what is that?” Talk us through it.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, so a Entamoeba histolytica, it’s an amoebic infection. The histo- means cell, -lytic means to cut, so it’s an amoebic infection the cuts through cells, right? Doesn’t sound too nice. We see it quite frequently but it’s, you know, on the nastier side. It’s a pretty bad infection. Dr. Kalish was one of his weak links that really knocked him out for a bit, infection-wise. Other people and clinicians I know have gotten it and been hurt by it, but it’s a nasty infection. It’s an amoeba. So it’s gonna be small. You’re not gonna see it in your stool. I do a lot of waterskiing in Lake Austin so it’s possible it maybe some water. I swallowed some water and I got it that way. I go to Mexico quite frequently, so it’s hard so it’s hard to say what the vector was, but we’re knocking it out. We’re knocking it out right now. I’m on a protocol, just about to be finished, and I’ll be retesting soon and we’ll report our retest results for the listeners.

Evan Brand:  Awesome, awesome. Yeah, I think—I think it’s probably—my guess is the waterskiing. Now, what makes me wonder though. Let’s just say that if—maybe you did swallow water, you probably did, but what if it went up your nose, too. So let’s say you fall off the skis, the water goes up the nose. Could you get the same level of—what would you call that? I guess you would just call it an infection. Would—can—can you get that same amount or is the same amount of susceptibility to the infection nasally as opposed to orally?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I would say it’s possible for sure. I would say it’s definitely possible. I’m not a—I don’t see many nasal parasitic infections. I mean you’re gonna have a lot of IGA and immune membrane protection there that’s gonna help kind of knock things down. Plus I think–

Evan Brand:  Well, I just wonder—sorry, I don’t mean to interrupt you.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, no problem.

Evan Brand:  I was just wondering if you get it up your nose and then you feel it drain down into your throat and then go into the GI tract that way.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, that’s what I would imagine what happened because your body’s gonna produce mucus and things to—to slide it down into the gut because the gut’s got a highly acidic environment where it can kinda be like bleach on that dirty picnic table and kinda clean things up. So I would imagine the body’s gonna start the immune response there, and also flush it into the stomach.

Evan Brand:  But if HCl was low due to–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Stress.

Evan Brand:  Stress.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, poor habits, eating gluten.

Evan Brand:  Then that could have led to the inability for that infection to become more invasive, right?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yes.

Evan Brand:  So now that the enzymes are there. If you’re in the same situation again. Let’s just say maybe it was from skiing, if you’re taking enzymes now as a pre-ski supplement, then it’ll you know, that’s—that’s gonna significantly increase your protection. Wouldn’t you say? Because anything that does–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yeah.

Evan Brand:  Get down, there—there’s protection there. So maybe you did like an Epic barn and enzymes before you went skiing or something.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, maybe maybe some enzymes, some probiotics, HCl, maybe a little bit of herbs. I tried to do a little bit of herbs with some probiotics just to make sure that doesn’t happen. But there’s, you know, there’s the two types of scenarios where this happens, right? There’s the opportunistic bug where you’re your immuno compromised, you’re stressed, your diet’s not good. A lot of physical, chemical, and emotional stress overload and your immune system is now weakened and then these critters kinda sneak their way to the front door, right? That’s like the first scenario. Scenario number two is you get hit with a whole bunch of infectious debris, and it’s like having a gang of people outside your door knocking it down, where you’re kinda defenseless, right? So scenario is kind of a chronic set up where you’re compromised. Scenario number two is you‘re just overwhelmed with the amount of debris coming in there and it’s harder for your immune system to respond.

Evan Brand:  Yup, could you speak on the conventional treatment for this. I think sometimes you and I we love functional medicine so much, we forget that there are conventional practices out there which are typically very inferior for this type of issue?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, for conventional parasite, the most common medication that’s gonna be prescribed is gonna be Flagyl or metronidazole that’s gonna be thrown at people. Typically 1 to 2 weeks at the most, and that may work a third of the time, and quite frequently it won’t work at least two-thirds of the time and then you have more conventional docs that have—are using more let’s say advanced type of antibiotics that may work better where it’s a paromomycin or it’s Nidazole or Alinea or Humatin, so there’s other medications that may be used. Again I like to use the herbs first because of their safety record, tend to be a little bit more selecting towards the bad critters and away from a good, and then to also working its biofilms, too, and they have synergistic effects like berberines and Artemisia work really strong together and if you add in silver, it can also make the herbs work better and then you have other herbs like clove or grapefruit seed extract that may be beneficial for fungus as well. So there’s a lot of synergy that you get with the herbs and you can do it longer term without the side effects that you get from the antibiotics.

Evan Brand:  I love it. I love it. Well, thanks for bringing that up because I know you’ve had clients and patients say the same thing they say to me which is, “Oh, Evan. I’ve done all the herbs. They don’t work.” And it’s like maybe you’ve just not done the herbs long enough. Maybe the practitioner didn’t create a protocol that was effective enough, but the herbs do work and you and I see it every single week in the clinic that it’s real and you absolutely can’t get rid of infections with functional medicine and the right type of approach.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  100% and again it’s gonna come down to what’s the infection and then the dose, you know, we’re using much higher doses. I mean, typically, if you look on the instructions of some of the supplements we’ll use, the dose is probably 75% less recommended and then we use a lot of herbs and nutrients together synergistically. And the key is in my opinion that really helps is we’re building up the immune system by making the diet, the lifestyle changes, supporting the adrenals and/or other hormonal imbalances before we go after the infection. That’s what really supports the immune system so it makes the whole process of eradication much easier and easier to—to rebound back from both.

Evan Brand:  Well, that and the fact that you and I both use professional healthcare companies to manufacture our product. So if we’re comparing–

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yeah.

Evan Brand:  A consumer grade herb say from Now Foods or Gaia Herbs or something like that, which can be great. Compared to a professional healthcare product, I mean the quality is completely different, much, much higher. So when you get, say 250 mg of something, you’re actually getting that or you’re getting close as you can to that, versus with consumer grade products that you may buy at Whole Foods, you can’t say the same about absorption rates and bioavailability, things like that.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, absolutely and then we’re combining it, and then the real key thing is we test afterwards, right? You never wanna guess. You wanna test. So then we’ll follow up with that retest and like in your situation, we know the H. pylori came—the H. pylori was—was there, right? That was a new infection. So now that’s on our bull’s-eye. We tweak your protocol a bit and make sure everything’s dialed in and then we go back to the drawing board. So the next step for you is while we’re doing all these things with the H. pylori is get that adrenal re-tested and see where we’re at with it and then the next step would be support whatever systems are out of balance with the adrenals and the thyroid and make sure you’re infection-free.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, and I’m going to continue to—I took a little break from adaptogens but I’m gonna continue to add adaptogens back again. I can feel it. I got out of the sauna the other day and I was—I took a shower. I just had a real, real light breakfast, didn’t—didn’t have much at all and—and I had some shakes going on in my hand, so I knew it was a combination of maybe like a healing reaction, but some adrenal stress, too. I could feel it. I was like, “Oh, man.” It’s like Justin, he’s in my head. “Blood sugar, Evan. Blood sugar.” So you know, I had to eat something and—and felt significantly better. But I know there’s still—there’s still some work to be done on the chemical front, too. You and I—we’ll have to do another show if we haven’t already on the GPL talks and we need to get you checked out, too, because I had those insecticides on that GPL that were off the charts and those are probable carcinogens. So that’s a whole another, a whole another podcast.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, we’re gonna have to get that done and we’ll do a whole podcast on that. So kinda wrapping things up for you, knocked out 2 infections, Crypto-Giardia, awesome, really, really good there. Myself, I just came back with the E. histo and a little bit of bacteria and a very small amount of fungus, cleaning that up, been doing that for the last two months, getting ready to retest soon, and again the key thing is doing 2 tests was helpful. I find this really helpful–

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Especially when you really want to rule out gut stuff and then outside of that, following up with the retest and making sure everything else is dialed in.

Evan Brand:  Yup. Are you doing any—any oreganos for like that geotrichum or some of the other fungus.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm. Yeah. My line—I used the GI Clear 5 and I use that at 6-8, 6-9 capsules that I hit it up pretty hard and then I—

Evan Brand:  Wow.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I followed up with the GI Clear 4 in my line and then I rotate between the 1 and the 6. I went back and forth and I add a little bit of silver, you know, again, I could do a little bit more intricate things because I know I’m gonna do it, but sometimes with patients the big thing you gotta do is compliance ,right? So if you get too intricate with patients, it may create some compliance issues. So I try to keep it more simple, but for myself I—I played around with mixing some things on and off which can be helpful, but again even just going at it straightforward would probably knock the infection out. No problem.

Evan Brand:  Agreed, man, so you’re—you’re hitting it pretty darn hard then, 9 of those a day?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, yeah, just about done though. I think I used my last GI Clear 4 this morning so I’m switching over to probiotics I think tonight and then I gotta get those tests back in and retest by the end of the year.

Evan Brand:  Yup, how long—how long was your—was your protocol. Was it—did you do 4, 6, 8 weeks?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, I did about 8-10 weeks.

Evan Brand:  Okay.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I was off for a little bit because I was traveling. It was tough to—to bring everything but I—

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I was able to maintain it pretty well. Typically if I cheat with the herbs, I’ll at least take morning and night so when I wake up–

Evan Brand:  Yup.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  And when I go to bed, so at least can get both those in.

Evan Brand:  So if compliance is 90%. Most cases you’re gonna do well. Like you said, if the foundations are already built into place and diet, lifestyle, stress management strategies, all that’s in place, too.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, so the key things is if I miss my afternoon dose, I make sure if I’m supposed to get 6 of 1 pill, I wanna make sure it’s 3 and 3. I don’t do 2 and 2, and then just say, well, I’ll go with a, you know, a 30% less dose. No, I keep the dose the same. We just double up.

Evan Brand:  Now, so do you believe—do you put faith in the idea or the term, a healing reaction, or do you think that’s just an overhyped term that’s kind of an excuse for someone that’s not getting supported properly, meaning someone’s hitting something too hard but the practitioner maybe is not giving them the proper liver support or if this person is not pooping enough and they’re really constipated that they’re having some of that autointoxication that way.  I mean, is there something to healing reactions or do you think that there’s maybe another part of the wheel that just hasn’t been cranked at the same time that you’re killing this stuff off?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think both. I think if someone’s having a healing reaction to start at the normal dose, it tells me that their infection is quite virulent and their immune system and lymphatic system and detox are having a difficult time. I went right up to the full dose with mine and I’d no problem, like not one symptoms.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Maybe a tiny but of lethargy or fatigue. No issue. So if a patient goes up to that full dose and they have reaction, it tells me something. It tells me there’s probably a lot of debris the body is trying to respond to and—and kinda flush out and it’s having a difficult time, so you know, our list making sure diet and blood sugar is there and making sure sleep’s there, and making sure waters there, right? Once that’s off our list, making sure we have adrenal support, digestive support, and nutrient support. Good, now that’s off our list. Then we go to the infection and if we’re still having that, during the infectious time and we’re pooping regularly and bowel movements are regular, well, the real simple thing is we cut everything down, cut it out 2-3 days, get symptom-free, add everything one at a time half dose to full dose, and if we’re really sensitive we may go quarter to half to three-quarters to full. Then add the next product in and as long as we don’t have a negative reaction, we go up to the full dose. If we have a negative reaction, we back off, go to the next product. Like so if it’s at 4 caps, the reaction happens, well, great. Back down to 3. No problem.

Evan Brand:  Move on.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Go to the next one. Move on. And then once you get everything back in, then you got back up to the first one again and you try inching it back to the full dose. So that’s my supplement reaction or my detox protocol, and then we’ll typically add in side-by-side that is some ginger tea, some activated charcoal, and/or bentonite clay or diatomaceous earth. I typically pick one. I’ve been going more with the charcoal in the DE these days. We’ll even throw in some fiber. It just depends with patients.

Evan Brand:  I love charcoal.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Uh-hmm.

Evan Brand:  Charcoal is amazing. I mean, I’m visualizing this. It’s so fun because it’s almost like being a sound mixer. You picture—you picture the guy at the concert, you know, he has this little lever over here, this little dial. He spins this dial this way, backs this dial down, pulls up this little switch, flips that level, turns that button—boop! I mean, it’s his—it’s so fun to do this stuff, man. It never gets old.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I totally agree. So regarding the healing crisis, I think it means something, but I always tell people, don’t be the tough person. Don’t try to tough it out. It means something.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Back off. Get the ginger tea in. If you want to throw in some charcoal in between meals or some extra fiber, fine, and then we’ll gradually increase at one by one. Now typically anyone that has a long history of autoimmune stuff or gut stuff, I always go slow but sometimes you get people that are doing pretty well and then you’re like, well, let’s just back right in to a full dose and they get hit by a bus.

Evan Brand:  Right.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  So we just go back, quarter, half, three-quarters, full or we just start at a quarter half and then increase and any negative reactions, back off to the last safest dose, or—and then move on to the next supplement.

Evan Brand:  You’re not going to win a trophy if you finish your protocol faster than somebody else.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Exactly, exactly.

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Most times if we had add the detox support and curtail the dose, it’s like throwing the lobster in the water that’s already cold. It doesn’t scream, you know, you can—you can just turn it up slowly. No problem. You throw the lobster in the hot water, man. Those things make a, you know, some nice screamy noises that aren’t too pleasant. Even though I love lobster, I hate that—that part so–

Evan Brand:  I’ve—I’ve not cooked lobster to—to experience that myself.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yeah, yeah. I have a lot of empathy for animals but I also know it’s the circle of life, and there’s a lot nutrient density, but that’s the whole analogy is, going back, is if you slower you don’t get the—the nasty effects, right?

Evan Brand:  Yeah.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Instead of lobster screaming at your body and your tummy and your limb screaming.

Evan Brand:  So for you hopefully on retest, everything’s gone. We’re hoping nothing extra shows up for you like a deeper H. pylori infection.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  That’s the goal. Yup. I’m i’m feeling pretty good about it, man.

Evan Brand:  Awesome.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Cool, very cool. Well, anything you want to address, Evan?

Evan Brand:  I don’t think so. I think this was well said and we should wrap it up. I think if we keep going then people will fall asleep.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  yeah.

Evan Brand:  So hopefully this was entertaining and I mean, talk about a level of transparency, I don’t think there’s anything higher than what we’re doing and what we’re talking about, so I hope you all enjoyed that and—and appreciate that fact because it—it’s rare to find this level of transparency and we have nothing to lose. I mean, this is—we’re in the trenches every day. So I mean, this is what it’s all about.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  I think people will really have a lot to learn seeing that their—their doctor or their healthcare practitioner is in the trenches, too, and doing it and still working on their health. And again, I can’t think of any people on, you know, health people on the iTunes or on the Internet world that are getting this level of transparency and exposure out to their listeners.

Evan Brand:  Yeah, I mean, not that we have the time to go and—and research, but I feel like we would’ve known by now if somebody was revealing everything. There’s this weird perception, you know, where if you’re the practitioner, you’re the expert, you know, you’re the—the caretaker that everything is just 100% perfect and that’s not true. There’s many different exposures. I mean, you and I do as much as possible as we can to do everything right, but you still go skiing in water where there could be something.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  I’m convinced that I got the Crypto and/or the Giardia from swimming in Barton Springs.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Yup.

Evan Brand:  I took in a huge amount of water. So life still happens and as much as you and I can do the things to try to create these little bubbles of you know, a nutrition bubble and lifestyle, and all these great little parts of our ecosystem, we still operate in an ecosystem that is generally pretty toxic in terms of all the things that are out in the air, food, water, soil and you’re going—you’re going to come across stuff and it is just about what do you do to increase your resilience against these things once you kill them off, like you said was some of the post infection support, you know, people may hear—hear this and think oh kill, kill, kill, but eventually we’re strengthening us, too, as the host and so that’s why you and I, you know, maybe we take an extra day off or we go spend some more time in nature because that’s the stuff that’s going to heal you in the long term. You know, you can—you can continue to go through rounds of a gut killing protocol, but at the end of the day, if you’re not healthy, you’re going to continue to get reinfected because the host is weak and if the host is weak, then I mean, that—that’s something Reed Davis said to me, that I though was pretty profound. He’s like,
“Kill, kill, kill.” He said, “But you gotta fix you, too.” The host has gotta be resilient. So that’s where the adaptogens and all the other fun stuff that we chat about comes in.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Absolutely and if you guys listening and really enjoying it, give us a nice review on iTunes. You can click the link below. We appreciate your support. Anything else, Evan?

Evan Brand:  I don’t think so.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  Hey, man. Great chat today. I look forward doing this again real soon.

Evan Brand:  You, too. Take care.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani:  You, too. Bye.

Evan Brand:  Bye.

 


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